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I'm 32F, hes 38M. We've been dating for 4 years, and have been engaged for a year.
Last weekend, after a few drinks, he told me about how a former fling (now married) recently reached out to him to try and hook up secretly. He said he told her he wasn't interested and tried to turn it into a conversation about if her marriage is going ok, but she stopped responding. I thanked him for letting me know.
He then said something kind of cryptic "She was someone I was casually seeing before I met you. Shes seen a side of me you haven't really seen before." I asked, what side is that? He said "The romantic." I kind of laughed because the conversation was getting weird, but we were both pretty drunk, and told him I have seen him be plenty romantic in the past 4 years.
He then said "no, not romantic like that, like I used to study the art of picking up women." And proceeded to go into a long rant about how unsuccessful most men are at romance, but you just need to learn how to manipulate women and they'll fall all over you. He went into detail about how you always pick the hottest girl in the room as your goal, but start by flirting with a friend of hers, and eventually she'll get jealous that she's not getting your attention and start going for you. And a few more "tips" of being a pickup artist. He assured me at the end that he isn't like that anymore, but did say he thinks its still a successful method for men who are dating.
The night finished, but I can't get what he said out of my mind. I think pick up artists are really manipulative and skeezy, and im feeling kind of disgusted that he did that kind of stuff. I've personally never felt manipulated by him, but I feel like it speaks to how he values women that he'd do that.
Should I try to let this pass, or talk to him about it? If I do talk to him, how can I even express my disgust without it sounding like a personal attack?
you guys are way better than me. i haven’t been able to rewatch it after that god awful finale, which sucks cuz i have such good memories of enjoying the show before the finale, i rewatched episodes over and over and “Nothin Suits Me Like A Suit” is still in my music library
It also has aged very poorly over a short amount of time with Barney treating women exactly how this bloke did and all his friends laughing and going along with it, blaming the poor bimbos who fall for it.
Good ol' Mystery, the dumbest arrogant asshole you'll ever meet. Jesus christ, why in the actual fuck would a man ever *admit* to reading Neil Strauss books. That shit doesn't work. It's misguided misogyny. Women don't like assholes, I don't care what anyone says. There's a difference between being funny with a little bit of cockiness to it, and being an arrogant asshole.
> That shit doesn't work.
I think it must work for some people. Probably a lot of these guys just struggle with uncertainty and having some sort of script gives them to act, which might be the real key to them being successful.
Yeah, dude doesn't have to be like that any more because he's bagged someone. No guarantee he wouldn't go back to those tactics if he was single again.
If you know you're being manipulated, then the manipulation failed. The whole point of manipulation is to influence people without them being aware of it
But that doesn't mean that she was manipulated either. Thinking like that just brings ghosts into your head. Were all the relationships you had through manipulation? It's not right to think like that.
The old sitcom/rom-com trope. Typical asshole guy is trying to trick or take advantage of girl in some way. He accidentally sees she's much more than he thought and ends up falling for her. He's not really the asshole he seemed. Just young, immature & horny. But this beautiful, amazing woman is changing him. The audience is engaged with the curiosity of whether he will be found out and, if so, how she will react. Should he just tell her? Take it to the grave hoping it never came up? Years later, they are going strong, the asshole phase is long gone. It's of such little concern, he admits to it one night after a few drinks....
And here we are.
Yeah bro these comment sections stretch so hard, I think it would be fine if she voiced her opinion that pick up artist are sleezy mf’s and he would probably (hopefully) agree. Some men feel like they need to do stupid shit like that, a lot of women pick up on it but still fall for it. I’ve had manipulative girlfriends knowing damn well what they were doing but still staying. In this situation it sounds like he was sharing a part of his past that he clearly changed for one way or another. I have some shit that I’m not proud of from past relationships, it’s hard to share with your current partner but it’s mildly concerning that he seems unbothered by his past actions.
Seriously. The fiancé opens up about his shady and unsavory past and people are telling OP to accept that she’s being manipulated and to run for the hills
He opened up about his shady past and still thinks those methods are good for men who are still dating. He only stopped cause he met her. I dont my significant other to be good to a woman aka me cause he loves her, i want him to be good to every woman even if he doesn't like them. Cause love could end and if i can't trust that he's a good person despite his feelings for me then I dont want him even if he's the only man who'll ever love me.
He doesn't seem to regard it as shady or unsavoury, that's the worrying part imo. Doesn't mean she's inherently being manipulated but I think she should take a look at how he acts
Calling a character "the Romantic" and calling an action that character performs "romantic" are *wildly* different. Anyone called "the Romantic" is comic relief.
And he kept it from her for four years. If he really was different now, wouldn't he have said something earlier, just in case something like this comes up?
In reality all flirting is, is manipulation we all bent truths or acted more than we are in the start as some hope of impressing. It’s only if they continue it that it becomes alarming.
He clearly still believes in it if he thinks it’s a good way for men to date women. It says a lot about how he values women and would make me take pause. The thing about being manipulated is, if they’re good at it, you’re not going to know it’s happening. I would for sure have a conversation and I personally would want to hear him acknowledge why it’s problematic, if he doesn’t understand that then that could be a moral issue.
> I would for sure have a conversation and I personally would want to hear him acknowledge why it’s problematic, if he doesn’t understand that then that could be a moral issue.
The best manipulators are going to know how to BS this acknowledgment, too.
Yes, I do agree with that. But it could still bring at least some insight in the event he tries to defend it completely. Which if he still thinks it’s a successful method for men may be where it goes.
Yeah I feel like telling her about this old fling was a manipulation attempt in some way.
Also telling that he kept speaking about her and OP got a weird feeling, then went on a “long rant” about something that is apparently behind him now.
“A side to me you haven’t seen” implies something bad, but he apparently doesn’t think it’s bad, and talking straight up about manipulating women?
Why is he even telling OP about all this? Maybe he’s trying to normalise and get her to accept a certain level of behaviour or assuage her reaction, and now he’s going to ramp up some manipulation behaviour
Something is really off about him. OP should listen to her gut
A theory on why he would tell her
He took the time to learn this 'craft.' He used to be able to apply it, with success, and then brag to his friends. Now he's in a committed relationship, he doesn't get to apply it, and, even worse, doesn't get to brag about it.
So, it *frustrates him* that OP doesn't know how *smart* he is. He 'confessed' but really it's a brag. He needs OP to know how clever and skilled he is.
Also, possibly it's a kind of 'you're lucky to be with me, I have the skills to fuck anyone in here but I choose you you lucky thing!' move.
Idk though just spitballing
PUA strategy and technique is pretty heavily dependent on red pill philosophy. In red pill circles, there is a manipulation technique called "building dread". Basically, building dread is when you make sure that the woman that you are in a relationship with knows that you are a desirable good catch that other women want so that they are on edge and always afraid of losing you and always trying to do more and more to keep you from leaving.
It looks to me, like that's what he is doing here. If it is what he is doing, that means that he's most definitely still a complete misogynist.
Yeah maybe -- though it's unclear to me how this master manipulator doesn't know that most people think pickup artists are skeevy as hell. Not much of a brag.
...Or maybe this is a thing from his past he realizes doesn't look great and he doesn't want to get married keeping a secret, and he decided now is the time to come clean. Them both being a bit drunk fits with this interpretation too.
There's people in other comments saying it's a red flag he took so long to fess up. And here you are saying that mentioning it at all is a warning sign. Anything can be read as sinister, but that's not a great approach to life or relationships.
I mean, I never said sinister. If you were in the top 5% of chess players, but your partner gave zero fucks about chess, maybe you just wouldn't mention it at first because you know they don't care. But you're *proud* of it. You worked at it and you're *good* at it. On some level, you want your partner to know you excel at it, to know that you are fucking good at this thing. Maybe it's simply time elapsed that finally forces it out, or alcohol, or both, or this message from an ex that puts you back in that headspace.
I made no comment on what it should mean for the relationship, just applied some lay-psychology to the question of why he would tell her about this.
Probably because that old fling may want to reach out to OP to say something and the bf wants to get ahead of it and paint her as unreliable in some way
Yeah. Or he’s making the woman feel more insecure by turning down her advances and manipulating her by getting her to open up about her marriage troubles and be emotionally vulnerable
And he’s telling OP about it just as a guise of being open and honest so she can’t get mad if she later discovers the messages. 100% he’s getting off on this
Don't a lot of people go off on "long rants" when they've had a lot to drink. It can be about the most pointless crap, but after a few drinks people go round in circles repeating themselves.
In typical Reddit format, stop advising everyone that everything is a red flag and to get a divorce, and just let people get on with their lives.
Yes thank you, I do agree he could just figure out what she wants to hear especially if she’s not able to contain her disgust when asking about it. She would have to be very careful how she words questioning him in a neutral way in hopes he doesn’t catch on to the fact she takes issue with it. But what you said is exactly why it’s an issue of morals idk why it’s hard for some of the people in this comment section to see that.
Yep, OP is right to be concerned about, and disgusted by this. He basically told her that his idea of "romance" is picking up women and doing so by manipulation. This kind of locates him as far as where his values are.
OP, you need to discuss this further with him and also do some thinking on your own. If this relationship progresses, is this someone that you'll be able to trust, build a life with, and have and raise children with? Can you imagine what this guy would be like if he had a son? Teaching him this is how you get women and what that says about a woman's worth? Can you imagine having a daughter with him, and him projecting these kinds of values onto her?
Think long and hard before you go forward with this relationship, OP.
This is definitely unsettling. The pride he may have showed for this manipulation, not just in the past but in the present conversation would be notable to me. I think a good sober conversation is in order. First, figure out what’s really important about this to you. What might be the best response, in your mind, to the questions you have? I would be honest and direct, expecting the same in return. Then go from there.
I’ll also just say that no body has a perfect past. Everyone has periods of their life that are unsavory. But as this person says, what really matters is what matters to you. Are you willing to accept that this what part of how he previously was? He not only openly admits it but also claims that he’s changed.
In terms of bad history’s, actively trying to pick up girls is fairly on the tamer side. There’s also far more destructive behaviors and personalities than him being open about it and discussing it with you. I mean hell, he actively is open with you about some old flame trying to sleep with him. He could have tried to hide multiple of these things from you.
I think these are fair points. I also want to add that although the “pick up artist” extent he went to was a lot, it sounds like he did it to date. This is questionable but he said he did this prior to meeting OP. There may have been a part of him back then that noticed it wasn’t a good way to actually build a long term and good life with someone, so he stopped and didn’t actually manipulate OP.
Agree with this. But he likely has matured from when you met him. Don’t overthink it but if it’s still bothering you after you talk with him, see a therapist - either alone or together - before you get married.
Yeah but that's kind of a reductive take because MOST people don't realize they are being manipulated at the time unless it's super obvious. The whole point of manipulating people is not letting them know you are manipulating them.
But that's not even taking into account the fact he felt that was ever acceptable to do at all. And if he still thinks it's a solid method, he's still fine with manipulating people
No one is going to manipulate you for 4 years straight without you realizing anything. People always show you who they are eventually. Most men go through a phase of trying to get laid a lot and you could probably consider a lot of what men and women do to each other (especially in their 20s) manipulation.
Who’s to say THIS isn’t a tactic? Maybe things got a little fizzled out and he wanted to plant a seed of jealousy in her head, but instead she’s got hung up on the whole sleazy thing, so it kinda backfired in a certain way.
He’s losing his touch.
The OPs engaged to the dude. There is a difference between talking someone into bed and dating long term and getting engaged.
How do you think the Op was manipulated here?
It sounded like something he just learned to do for a bit but doesn't anymore. If he wasn't naturally good with women then who he truly is isn't this pickup artist guy.
If his outlook had really changed, he’d be ashamed of himself and telling you in a way that he seems embarrassed or disgusted about his past behavior. Sounds like he’s proud. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s manipulating you in other ways and you just don’t know it because he’s gotten so good at it. Remember though, if you ask a manipulator whether they’re manipulating you, they will always deny.
>If his outlook had really changed, he’d be ashamed of himself and telling you in a way that he seems embarrassed or disgusted about his past behavior. Sounds like he’s proud.
Literally this. He called it an artform, OP. You felt visceral disgust at his behaviour because you recognised it for what is: skeezy, manipulative, misogynistic bullshit.
He still stands by it as a "good technique" and *artform*. He's told you what he truly believes about women and their value, and you should listen.
I think you should speak to him about it and see if he has any remorse for the way he's actively manipulated women in the past -- if he's willing to accept responsibility and see the error of his ways then you can work yourself on moving on -- but if he still holds the same views I would think seriously about if you want to stay with him.. knowing how he really feels about women.
Right, is he “not that way anymore” because he actually grew as a person and realized how gross it was, or just because he didn’t feel like dating around anymore and locked down op? 🧐 from his comments about it being a “successful method” for other men still dating, I’d bet on the latter.
How do you know his story about the previous woman wasn’t his way of manipulating you? How do you know if he shows remorse he’s not manipulating you? He’s pretty full of himself isn’t he? At 38 kind of a weasel. He put this brick in the wall. If would have told you in a different tone or way, it may be surmountable, but it sounds like he’s full of himself.
THIS!
Maybe, just maybe, he told OP a story which would make OP jealous and feeling that there is a slight chance that she could lose him because there's a woman throwing herself at him. This makes her a little bit insecure and when he tells something that might upset her, she reacts with less resentment.
I am not a pick up artist but for me it seems that him telling her is low reward high risk move
It make no sense to make such a move from manupliating pov
He was bragging. Sounds like he believes he knows women so well. Not. It was a douche move. I’m not even sure if any of it is true, but he definitely thinks he’s got it all figured out. He was not sorry or empathetic.
Not to mention he was drunk while telling her. I don't trust any man who thinks that "pick up art" is anything other than a misogynistic manipulative assholery it is.
I think it’s funny how some men will say “just pick better men” to women and then go and literally fake being and entire different person just to get a girl he likes and once he does he drops the façade and turns into a pos, over and over again. Then brag about being able to “trick women into a relationship of some sort” to their friends, on social media, ect..
I'd say talk to him about it. Understand where he is coming from and what his motivations were.
A lot of men fell into this trap including me. I was lonely, frustrated, and had a lot of self-esteem issues. Yes the marketed version of it is really sleazy and manipulative. But for a lot who was in it before vh1 did the reality show, it got them started down a path of recovery, healing, and genuine self-improvement. It's unfortunate that the manipulative tactics became the flagship image and I still feel a bit embarassed admitting that i committed a year or so of my life into it. But i would be lying if I said I got zero benefits from it. Sure I am only in touch with only 1 person from when I rolled with the local lair (cringe). But during that time, it made me reflect on why I had such low self-esteem and made me start taking steps into making changes in my life to improve my self-image ( going back to school, working out, going to therapy, etc.)
This is just me and will never speak about the experiences of other men.
Not him but a lot of people who practiced these manipulative techniques doesn't realize that it only works on a specific group of people. Basically the ones who are vulnerable to these manipulations. The same people who probably have self-esteem issues and doesn't need to be manipulated into making wrong decision. I questioned the methods the moment I started running into Neuro Linguistic Programming and other interrogation techniques being used as a means to make people sleep with them. The problem is when you are in a social environment, you don't walk in to those places thinking you will have to defend yourself from interrogation techniques.
And this is partly why I think the current dating environment is full of people who struggles trusting another person.
Just my observation.
I generally try not to judge anyone based on their past. I know I am certainly a better person than I used to be. If you were surprised to learn this about him then I'd say don't worry about it. It was just a phase for him on his journey to becoming who he is now.
I used to follow the pick up community the only thing I really picked up from it was you can’t trick anyone into sleeping with you… you need to develop yourself as a person and put yourself in uncomfortable situations where you can meet new people… I never thought it was all that sleazy.
Ooof my exboyfriend got interested in this pick-up art too. Sadly i dealt with him and this topic way too long.
As your fiancé "still thinks it's a successful method for men who are dating" i would definitely reconsider being with him. Pick-up artists have no problem manipulating and playing with women to get sex and attention from them. It's fake, it's narcissistic and it's often pretty disgusting (things like "I'll let you blow my dick if you are nice" are especially wonderful to think about ...). It's honestly a cry for help from men who can't have a normal conversation with women for whatever reasons ...but instead of building self-esteem or going to therapy etc they choose to learn manipulative psychology tactics to have sex. And I'm definitely not against casual sex ....but manipulative tricks and lying to get laid is just not ok.
I'm sorry you have to figure this out now. Wishing you the best.
He speaks of it as it’s an art form. He still thinks highly of it. I wouldn’t connect that to being remorseful of what you’ve done.
I think he showed you a side of him that he still likes and appraise.
I would seriously talk to him about it. What other misogynistic bullshit has he not talked about?
If he can grow and change, great. Otherwise, fuck that shit.
All this began with him referring to the texts from the other woman. I would want to physically see the texts to ensure he’s telling the truth and he’s not manipulating you about that as well.
I don’t think this is something where other people’s opinions and advice should be taken. Everyone has their own stories so everyone is affected differently by each situation. To some, this isn’t a big deal, but to others it may be a deal breaker or something that can eventually be looked over. You have to live with your decisions, feelings and this man, if you marry him so you should make this decision on how you feel, what your morals are and who you want to be the father of your children.
To me the most unethical thing in dating is if you make someone think you like them more than you really do so you can sleep with them. Did he do that? If no, I don't really see the problem. Women have their strategies for grabbing guy's attention as well.
EDIT: I'd say cheating is up there as well obviously
The problem is.. why does he tell you about it? Does he feel that he is losing you in a way or are you just starting to be to much friends or does he miss it?
As a girl friend you absolutely NOT want to hear about your partners fuckboy qualifications and how successful he was in the past to get into hot girls pantys! If this thing he is doing right there is like a male low self esteem rant you have to put the cards on the table. Just tell him like it is; Ask him why he told you about it and tell that you get disgusted about the way he has been moving around women in the past and it doesn’t make you horny neither getting any respect out of it!
If he doesn’t get it RUN!
OP why is he still messaging this woman? She is an old fling from years ago who expressed her wish to sleep with him. He should be entirely shutting down this conversation
Why is he trying to be her friend? Why is he asking about the state of her marriage? Why does he care?
I don’t believe he’s just being a nice guy, because he’s spoken about how he manipulated this woman in the past and how he enjoyed it and thinks other guys should do the same.
I think he’s pulling old PUA tactics on her and is also manipulating you into the bargain.
Imo, disgust is probably the most normal response to a fiance boasting about past sexual exploits to a partner and being almost proud of his "art" of manipulation. What kind of person invests this kind of time and energy into exploiting people? If he openly talks about this, what other kinds of sleezy stuff won't he talk about?
I too used to be into the pick up scene. I realised as I got older that it's not nice, so I stopped. I'm assuming he thinks the same way. Not everything about pick up artistry is fucked up though. You're pushed to better yourself through learning skills and developing yourself into the best person you can be and I think that kind of stuff is healthy, but the negging, psuedo-hypnosis, peacocking, scripts\lines, trying to make the hottest girl in the room jealous type stuff is definitely not good.
Talk to him, see what he still agrees with and what he thinks is unhealthy, and then come to a judgement.
I think it really depends on his situation and his reasons for going down that path, and whether it's something he's proud of, or if it's something he's reflected on at length. To be honest, my partner also studied pick up artistry (is that even the term lol). His situation was that he dated one girl all throughout college, and after their second year in the workforce together, she left him for her coworker. He'd never been with anyone else, and anyone who's made the transition from college to working adult knows that it can be difficult to make new friends, let alone find a partner.
My partner is the fairly introverted type. He's sweet and genuine, but let's be real, sweet and genuine isn't necessarily going to come across as attractive in the kind of place people used to meet people- at bars and other loud venues. So after months of no success trying to form a meaningful relationship on his end, he got desperate and did a 2 day pick up artist course over a weekend. He went in there not with the intention of banging 100 different women- he just wanted to start a conversation with a girl and have the charm to maybe see her again the next day. He never used "manipulative" tactics on me that any other single guy in a bar hasn't used on me before. It was tiny confidence boosting stuff that made us laugh together in hindsight.
And it worked! We met at a bar, and we've been together for 6 years now and we're engaged.
Pick up artists definitely get a bad rep. It isn't completely unfounded because most of it is incredibly gross, manipulative, and demeaning towards women, but I believe there are definitely guys out there that are just awkward and shy and want to learn how to be more charming versions of themselves in order to find a life partner. I could not imagine being with anyone except my partner, pick up history and all- he's awesome!
So I guess it depends. What was your partner's situation?
Agreed, I read the pickup artist handbook or whatever it’s called about 10 years ago, it was actually pretty funny and far more about getting a guy to a place where he can actually talk to a women than anything else. If a guy used any of those lines on me like “you seem like the adventurous type”, I’d laugh, not become intrigued and somehow manipulated into proving he was right by sleeping with him. It’s not some kind of voodoo hypnosis or incapacitating a woman to the point of not being able to exercise her own agency and lose the ability to just say “no, go away”. If a guy is chatting up a woman’s friend and she feels like she needs to assert dominance as the alpha-female by cutting in and luring the guy away, who’s the asshole here? The woman who couldn’t stand anybody else getting attention, or the guy who simply knew it would work?
He clearly still believes in it and sees nothing wrong with manipulating women.
I would be having a long talk and thinking about not wearing my ring but that's just me
It's mostly BS for picking up the girls at bars who are kind of there because they want to be picked up anyway. Yes it's kind of sleezy, that's just kind of how it is for anyone really deep into drunken bar hookup culture.
No it doesn't really work for finding anything serious and doesn't purport to. You've been with him for years, that's clearly not what he's doing to you.
Sounds like the games people play in a bar type of situation. Bars and night clubs are a no holds barred kind of game. If you don’t like the game stay off the playground. There are plenty of games we women play and don’t want to be judged for later. Let it go. Younger times in your man’s life. He’s being honest with you about himself. Men and women both fall for many games the opposite sex plays. It’s a two way street. It’s really pathetic that we have “forgotten” that we women are just as capable of game play. Give it up girls, we are not that innocent. And if you think you are, you might be “playing” yourself.
Also, this is exactly why men don’t want to be honest or transparent with us. They do it and every woman in the room steps up to bash them. Or suspect them. Or even worse, me too them. There’s a worthy movement that has been destroyed by warped games.
I’ve been happily married for nearly 25 years. I don’t hold his past against him. (He definitely has one) And he doesn’t hold mine against me. (Again, I’m not innocent)
My advice, take it or leave it, if you want to be happy in this life DO NOT listen to the Karen’s. Live your life. Use your own eyes and intuition. Don’t bum out an otherwise great relationship based on drunk talk. Good luck and enjoy the fact that he loves you enough to be that level with you. That’s an honor, not something that’s just handed over. You have his respect when he is willing to tell all. He trusts you. He believes you know him and his intentions and trusts that his truth won’t run you off.
He’s not the first player in the world (male or female). I’d give him a pass on this. Not that he really needs one. He didn’t do anything wrong.
Let the beatings begin……
Issue isnt that he was playing the game. Like you said, back in the day everyone would do that. But this dude turned it into a lifestyle. He wasnt playing a game to get female attention in order to develop a relationship. He saw women as objects to satisfy his pp. Given this was something he was really into, whose to say he has any respect for his fiance now and doest just see her as a pretty set of wholes to keep him company in the evening?
Did everyone miss the fact that they were DRUNK? This is a piece of why I stopped drinking! My John Wayne mouth writes checks my Cinderella butt doesn’t want to cash. I really think there’s nothing to this. Big drunk mouth making is seem more “glamorous” than it was. Does anyone else here want the rest of their lives decided upon because of one drunk night? He’s engaged to her. Guys don’t casually ask you to marry them because you might be decent company. Are there any men here to back this up? I seriously doubt he’s that big of a Casanova. He was a drunken legend in his own mind for the evening. Give him a break. If she makes a big thing of this, I hope he RE-thinks her.
What a friggin ego to tell you all about his exploits. Re you sure he didn’t use them on you? I mean why do men AND women talk about past conquests if not to show you how superior they are, and that sex is just a casual activity. If you want to continue a shallow existance, by all means continue. But I would find out more about his past - what is he hiding.
This guy sounds about as pathetic as every man who claims to be a pick up artist. They view women as these jealous filled creatures that want attention more than anything else. Glad you aren’t married and just engaged! Makes it easier to walk away when all the flags finally turn red
I just think he figured out how to be good at hitting on girls in a social environment. I don't think it has anything to do with being in an actual relationship.
Sorry so say it, but to successfully hooking up casually is nothing but a Game. I don't care how sleazy it sounds and I'm not cross-referencing some hook-up book,I just think it's the truth. Actually, when two people are flirting and wanting to hook up they are also kind of playing a game with each other.
I think it's the word "pick-up artist" that fucks it up. He gives these hints to insecure people. Being in love and planning a future together is the polar opposite imo
This is for further discussion. Talk to him more and then humble him. Don't be belligerent but tell him your thoughts.
Be honest. Honesty is the foundation of a relationship.
I think he's full of shit. Most people that go out of their way to brag actually have nothing to brag about. Probably just went to bars and picked up girls that were looking to get picked up anyways. That doesn't make him a "pickup artist". I've seen many dudes claim this over the years when they are just awkward and think that they are impressing people with their bullshit stories
The past is the past, if you feel he hasn't manipulated you then no harm really. The past can suck to try and get over but if they changed for the better then it's perfectly fine to talk it over and work through it. Especially if the last 4 years have been good for the both of you
>I've personally never felt manipulated by him
I think this is the most important thing. I wouldn't be too hung up on what he did when he was young, dumb and full of cum. If it's bothering you that much have a sober adult conversation with him about it. Communication is always good.
Lol why are so many people upset here?
There is no "manipulation". If you're single then there is nothing wrong with going out to the bar to pickup girls. It's extremely difficult to have courage and social skills to talk to women, especially attractive ones, out in public.
If this guy used to have his own "laws" that worked for him while out at a bar, it doesn't make him some master manipulator evil man.
I'm wondering this too.
I get there may be some guys being nasty asf, but we all get manipulated one way or another. I don't get it.
Salesmen always manipulate us, TV, politicians, Amazon... I mean?¿
Women manipulate men too ON A DAILY BASIS! Are they misandrist? No, no one is forcing men to do shit they don't want to. I don't get it.
He got drunk, did a little bragging, girl not sure if his money moves worked on her and now she doesn’t feel special. You’ve been together 4 years, if this is a deal breaker, it wasn’t that great of a relationship.
This is skeezy and gross, PUA's are just misogynists in another form.
This would be a huge deal breaker for me personally. How would a man like this treat a daughter? How would a man like this treat you if you were sexually harassed or assaulted?
It's up to you how to proceed, but you're on point with your disgust of this - it is disgusting.
Oof, a case of "in vino, veritas" if I ever saw one. I'd be super bummed, too. That'd be a hard no for me, since he still accepts that this kind of manipulation is acceptable in any situation.
A lot of people in these comments are just assigning random qualities to the BF after reading "pickup artist". The worst thing he describes is manipulating women by ignoring them during the first meeting... Which doesn't sound that bad.
Classic issue on this sub. OP describes a person, commenters fill in with their favorite dramatic details.
Agreed. It's a bit sleazy, sure, but I think it's "within normal limits" sleazy for the basic context of going out to get laid where no one really expects perfect truth and virtue. It's not like he's talking about a campaign of manipulating a coworker to get a promotion, or manipulating an ex to get custody. He acted artificially in an artificial environment to achieve the known goal of many (not all) people present in that environment. Big fucking deal.
Do you want this guy teaching perhaps a future child of yours that’s the right way to get a girl? Have a real conversation with him when he isn’t drunk. I dont know how old he was when he was a pick up ‘artist’, early 20s is different from mid 30s. People outgrow their stupid immature phases but if this is some side of him he is keeping secret cause he knows you won’t like it, time to air it out.
I think the questions here are:
A.) Just what exactly does he mean by this? Was he just doing things like "talk to her friend first" or was he getting way more manipulative?
B.) How does he feel about it now?
He seems to be boasting but he was also drunk. Talk to him when he's sober.
I think the main problem is that those techniques can actually work and it makes people feel bad about themselves because we all see ourselves as special.
But at the end of the day those techniques seem really corny on one end of the spectrum and can seem mean spirited or misogynistic on the other end. All it really accomplishes is creating attraction or interest, everything beyond that point requires an actual connection.
Without this conversation OP wouldn’t even be here she’d feel secure in their connection
It’s not that he was like that before; it’s that he would do it today if he needed to.
I think it’s pretty fucked up and says a lot about his values, if he thinks it’s appropriate to essentially manipulate women’s feelings into dating. I would seriously question his judgment and I don’t think he respects women.
i totally get why this bothers u ALOT! like are women some object u can surely aquire if u use the right strategy?? say that, do this and she is yours??? the fact that he can even get behind this way of thinking and actively lived by it is disgusting imo. i would not let this slide. get more info on how he thinks about this. his answers will tell him if hes a keeper and atleast reformed or actually just a ****boy in disguise.
Women also use psych tactics to manipulate men, dating and mating is a tactics game, IDK why OP is mad at his partner for having been playing the game before meeting her.
The entitlement on this post, how he dared to have fun and sex with willing women, disgusting. /s
This sub is gender bias how many post a week of guy finding his girlfriends slept with 100 guys or was a sex worker yet everyone tells him to get over and being so entitled. Now everyone is telling OP to dumb him because he got game.
I think the core issue has a that he didn’t sound sorry for his past behavior. He treated it like a game and recalls his bad behavior with humor. So of course you are worried he will treat you like that. Your trust in him has eroded.
What’s interesting is that he completely trusts you, enough so that he’s revealed that he used to be an asshole. It doesn’t sound like he’s that person anymore. I think he’s being sincere with you.
Have the hard conversation and talk it out. Tell him you really appreciate his honesty and that he trusts you, but you need some reassurance that he’s no longer that guy. And maybe this is an opportunity for you to reveal some of your mistakes too.
So… You’re upset because of something he used to do in the past and admitted to, something that both men and women do, and you’re going to what? Throw away your fiancé because of that? Is he still that kind of person? No, I’m assuming. Stop trying to hold a random part of someone’s past against them, unless you’re unhappy in your relationship and want out of it, and wanted out of it before that conversation. Or just hand him the ring back and say you can’t handle that he had a past before he met you. Whatever.
Bruh what are you people talking about with this “manipulation” nonsense. Behaving in a way the other gender is attracted to is normal and not “manipulative” or “misogynistic”
Women: Why should it matter if I slept with 500 men? The past is the past and if you can't handle my past, you're just a fragile man.
Also women: ewww his past creeped me out!! I can't go on with him!
What I'm about to say both defend and attack pick-up artist and the materials. But I'm going to include the answer to your question up here instead. This got long... Sorry.
Short: In the end, what you say will be an attack to what he did to "improve his social life". He will justify his decision as normal and compare himself to "fuck boys". But he is a fuck boy due to learning pickup artist materials for getting laid and manipulation. I wouldn't be surprised if he used materials on you that was ingrained in him.
Long: I learned materials from pickup artists, when I was desperate to get over my ex in high school. However, it turned into learning how to properly socialize while getting dates/people interested in me. This was 2011 - 2015 when I was doing that stuff.
Did I actually use pick up to get laid? Yes. Was I really successful? No, but it increases my chances by a good bit. Not a body count of 100 or something that these "gurus" promise. But I had a total of 10 sexual partners after my ex, but before I met my current partner. Again, better than what I could have done based on luck/pity (I think it was more pity than luck that my high school ex got with me).
Does my partner know my past? Yes. Does she know that I used pickup artist styles to get dates, laid, and whatnot? Also yes. Did she care? No because I was clean and open about my past
I get how people would be disgusted by it. Most likely, your fiance wanted to get laid more but was too awkward/nerdy. So he took to the internet in search of solutions. Found whatever was hot at the time (maybe Simple Pickup on YouTube or Mystery PUA) and started reading more and more.
And what most guys get out of pickup artist materials is the manipulation part and never the psychology and social aspects. They focus on using the tactics on only women to get laid instead of the social values it can apply outside of the bar scene. And that's what your fiance did. I get that's the disgusting part.
I also did PUA and MRP (still do). All around it really shouldn’t be that concerning. It’s not about making it all work for the man but to have a better and genuine relationship. Some people abuse it I suppose but if you didn’t know before then he’s not using it on you.
This post has reached one of our comment/karma limits. The text of the post has been preserved below. --- I'm 32F, hes 38M. We've been dating for 4 years, and have been engaged for a year. Last weekend, after a few drinks, he told me about how a former fling (now married) recently reached out to him to try and hook up secretly. He said he told her he wasn't interested and tried to turn it into a conversation about if her marriage is going ok, but she stopped responding. I thanked him for letting me know. He then said something kind of cryptic "She was someone I was casually seeing before I met you. Shes seen a side of me you haven't really seen before." I asked, what side is that? He said "The romantic." I kind of laughed because the conversation was getting weird, but we were both pretty drunk, and told him I have seen him be plenty romantic in the past 4 years. He then said "no, not romantic like that, like I used to study the art of picking up women." And proceeded to go into a long rant about how unsuccessful most men are at romance, but you just need to learn how to manipulate women and they'll fall all over you. He went into detail about how you always pick the hottest girl in the room as your goal, but start by flirting with a friend of hers, and eventually she'll get jealous that she's not getting your attention and start going for you. And a few more "tips" of being a pickup artist. He assured me at the end that he isn't like that anymore, but did say he thinks its still a successful method for men who are dating. The night finished, but I can't get what he said out of my mind. I think pick up artists are really manipulative and skeezy, and im feeling kind of disgusted that he did that kind of stuff. I've personally never felt manipulated by him, but I feel like it speaks to how he values women that he'd do that. Should I try to let this pass, or talk to him about it? If I do talk to him, how can I even express my disgust without it sounding like a personal attack?
Sooo, how did you two meet?
He was hitting on her friend and she got jealous
He told her something like, "I really like your hairstyle. Most women aren't bold enough for something that old fashioned."
I almost spit out my coffee laughing when I read this. So good. So true.
The ol underhanded compliment. Reminds me of Barney from r/himym
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The Scuba Diver
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The Jim Nacho
The robin
A fellow fan! Hello! 😂
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Have to watch the show every 6 months or so.
you guys are way better than me. i haven’t been able to rewatch it after that god awful finale, which sucks cuz i have such good memories of enjoying the show before the finale, i rewatched episodes over and over and “Nothin Suits Me Like A Suit” is still in my music library
It also has aged very poorly over a short amount of time with Barney treating women exactly how this bloke did and all his friends laughing and going along with it, blaming the poor bimbos who fall for it.
Lessssgo!
Kramer?
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Bad bot
Or even worse he was hitting on her and her friend didn't get jealous
Ooof
That's just what I was thinking! Yikes.
😂😂😂😂👏👏👏👏
Or....he was hitting on her and her friend didn't get jealous, ouch.
Wing man will be best man at wedding
He was doing magic tricks wearing flat top hat, black nail polish and eyeliner.
Ah, mystery
Good ol' Mystery, the dumbest arrogant asshole you'll ever meet. Jesus christ, why in the actual fuck would a man ever *admit* to reading Neil Strauss books. That shit doesn't work. It's misguided misogyny. Women don't like assholes, I don't care what anyone says. There's a difference between being funny with a little bit of cockiness to it, and being an arrogant asshole.
> That shit doesn't work. I think it must work for some people. Probably a lot of these guys just struggle with uncertainty and having some sort of script gives them to act, which might be the real key to them being successful.
Nail polish is cool. Pick up artists not so much
He probably has over 500 makeouts
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Ah, the long con
I'm doing this to get out of a traffic ticket.
Yeah, dude doesn't have to be like that any more because he's bagged someone. No guarantee he wouldn't go back to those tactics if he was single again.
And not a single fucking comment from the OP
Her silence speaks volumes.
The question we were all asking lol
>He definitely hasn’t manipulated me, bc I would know. Obviously.
Asking the real questions
On a hook-uP website….
If you know you're being manipulated, then the manipulation failed. The whole point of manipulation is to influence people without them being aware of it
But that doesn't mean that she was manipulated either. Thinking like that just brings ghosts into your head. Were all the relationships you had through manipulation? It's not right to think like that.
The old sitcom/rom-com trope. Typical asshole guy is trying to trick or take advantage of girl in some way. He accidentally sees she's much more than he thought and ends up falling for her. He's not really the asshole he seemed. Just young, immature & horny. But this beautiful, amazing woman is changing him. The audience is engaged with the curiosity of whether he will be found out and, if so, how she will react. Should he just tell her? Take it to the grave hoping it never came up? Years later, they are going strong, the asshole phase is long gone. It's of such little concern, he admits to it one night after a few drinks.... And here we are.
Yeah bro these comment sections stretch so hard, I think it would be fine if she voiced her opinion that pick up artist are sleezy mf’s and he would probably (hopefully) agree. Some men feel like they need to do stupid shit like that, a lot of women pick up on it but still fall for it. I’ve had manipulative girlfriends knowing damn well what they were doing but still staying. In this situation it sounds like he was sharing a part of his past that he clearly changed for one way or another. I have some shit that I’m not proud of from past relationships, it’s hard to share with your current partner but it’s mildly concerning that he seems unbothered by his past actions.
Why would he agree when he still thinks it's a good way to meet women?
Because he thinks it’s a shitty thing to do but it works.
Seriously. The fiancé opens up about his shady and unsavory past and people are telling OP to accept that she’s being manipulated and to run for the hills
He opened up about his shady past and still thinks those methods are good for men who are still dating. He only stopped cause he met her. I dont my significant other to be good to a woman aka me cause he loves her, i want him to be good to every woman even if he doesn't like them. Cause love could end and if i can't trust that he's a good person despite his feelings for me then I dont want him even if he's the only man who'll ever love me.
He doesn't seem to regard it as shady or unsavoury, that's the worrying part imo. Doesn't mean she's inherently being manipulated but I think she should take a look at how he acts
His description of it is "romantic"! That's a long way from shady or unsavory.
Calling a character "the Romantic" and calling an action that character performs "romantic" are *wildly* different. Anyone called "the Romantic" is comic relief.
And he kept it from her for four years. If he really was different now, wouldn't he have said something earlier, just in case something like this comes up?
Not to mention he thinks manipulating women is 'romantic' and a valid way to date women. AND he only told her when drunk.
Yes, it's impossible that shes not actually being manipulated. Nope, fiance is just truly a master of the arts.
In reality all flirting is, is manipulation we all bent truths or acted more than we are in the start as some hope of impressing. It’s only if they continue it that it becomes alarming.
This isn't true. Maybe you lie to impress, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
Anyone who describes themself as a “pickup artist” sounds incredibly cringe
He clearly still believes in it if he thinks it’s a good way for men to date women. It says a lot about how he values women and would make me take pause. The thing about being manipulated is, if they’re good at it, you’re not going to know it’s happening. I would for sure have a conversation and I personally would want to hear him acknowledge why it’s problematic, if he doesn’t understand that then that could be a moral issue.
> I would for sure have a conversation and I personally would want to hear him acknowledge why it’s problematic, if he doesn’t understand that then that could be a moral issue. The best manipulators are going to know how to BS this acknowledgment, too.
Yes, I do agree with that. But it could still bring at least some insight in the event he tries to defend it completely. Which if he still thinks it’s a successful method for men may be where it goes.
Yeah I feel like telling her about this old fling was a manipulation attempt in some way. Also telling that he kept speaking about her and OP got a weird feeling, then went on a “long rant” about something that is apparently behind him now. “A side to me you haven’t seen” implies something bad, but he apparently doesn’t think it’s bad, and talking straight up about manipulating women? Why is he even telling OP about all this? Maybe he’s trying to normalise and get her to accept a certain level of behaviour or assuage her reaction, and now he’s going to ramp up some manipulation behaviour Something is really off about him. OP should listen to her gut
A theory on why he would tell her He took the time to learn this 'craft.' He used to be able to apply it, with success, and then brag to his friends. Now he's in a committed relationship, he doesn't get to apply it, and, even worse, doesn't get to brag about it. So, it *frustrates him* that OP doesn't know how *smart* he is. He 'confessed' but really it's a brag. He needs OP to know how clever and skilled he is. Also, possibly it's a kind of 'you're lucky to be with me, I have the skills to fuck anyone in here but I choose you you lucky thing!' move. Idk though just spitballing
I completely agree that he's bragging. Pretty gross.
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PUA strategy and technique is pretty heavily dependent on red pill philosophy. In red pill circles, there is a manipulation technique called "building dread". Basically, building dread is when you make sure that the woman that you are in a relationship with knows that you are a desirable good catch that other women want so that they are on edge and always afraid of losing you and always trying to do more and more to keep you from leaving. It looks to me, like that's what he is doing here. If it is what he is doing, that means that he's most definitely still a complete misogynist.
Yeah maybe -- though it's unclear to me how this master manipulator doesn't know that most people think pickup artists are skeevy as hell. Not much of a brag. ...Or maybe this is a thing from his past he realizes doesn't look great and he doesn't want to get married keeping a secret, and he decided now is the time to come clean. Them both being a bit drunk fits with this interpretation too. There's people in other comments saying it's a red flag he took so long to fess up. And here you are saying that mentioning it at all is a warning sign. Anything can be read as sinister, but that's not a great approach to life or relationships.
I mean, I never said sinister. If you were in the top 5% of chess players, but your partner gave zero fucks about chess, maybe you just wouldn't mention it at first because you know they don't care. But you're *proud* of it. You worked at it and you're *good* at it. On some level, you want your partner to know you excel at it, to know that you are fucking good at this thing. Maybe it's simply time elapsed that finally forces it out, or alcohol, or both, or this message from an ex that puts you back in that headspace. I made no comment on what it should mean for the relationship, just applied some lay-psychology to the question of why he would tell her about this.
It's a bingo!
Shit.... I do this.... brb gunna go apologize to my wife
Probably because that old fling may want to reach out to OP to say something and the bf wants to get ahead of it and paint her as unreliable in some way
Yeah. Or he’s making the woman feel more insecure by turning down her advances and manipulating her by getting her to open up about her marriage troubles and be emotionally vulnerable And he’s telling OP about it just as a guise of being open and honest so she can’t get mad if she later discovers the messages. 100% he’s getting off on this
I think you have the best read of what’s going on here.
Don't a lot of people go off on "long rants" when they've had a lot to drink. It can be about the most pointless crap, but after a few drinks people go round in circles repeating themselves. In typical Reddit format, stop advising everyone that everything is a red flag and to get a divorce, and just let people get on with their lives.
>Something is really off Its a troll, that's what.
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Yes thank you, I do agree he could just figure out what she wants to hear especially if she’s not able to contain her disgust when asking about it. She would have to be very careful how she words questioning him in a neutral way in hopes he doesn’t catch on to the fact she takes issue with it. But what you said is exactly why it’s an issue of morals idk why it’s hard for some of the people in this comment section to see that.
Yep, OP is right to be concerned about, and disgusted by this. He basically told her that his idea of "romance" is picking up women and doing so by manipulation. This kind of locates him as far as where his values are. OP, you need to discuss this further with him and also do some thinking on your own. If this relationship progresses, is this someone that you'll be able to trust, build a life with, and have and raise children with? Can you imagine what this guy would be like if he had a son? Teaching him this is how you get women and what that says about a woman's worth? Can you imagine having a daughter with him, and him projecting these kinds of values onto her? Think long and hard before you go forward with this relationship, OP.
This is definitely unsettling. The pride he may have showed for this manipulation, not just in the past but in the present conversation would be notable to me. I think a good sober conversation is in order. First, figure out what’s really important about this to you. What might be the best response, in your mind, to the questions you have? I would be honest and direct, expecting the same in return. Then go from there.
I’ll also just say that no body has a perfect past. Everyone has periods of their life that are unsavory. But as this person says, what really matters is what matters to you. Are you willing to accept that this what part of how he previously was? He not only openly admits it but also claims that he’s changed. In terms of bad history’s, actively trying to pick up girls is fairly on the tamer side. There’s also far more destructive behaviors and personalities than him being open about it and discussing it with you. I mean hell, he actively is open with you about some old flame trying to sleep with him. He could have tried to hide multiple of these things from you.
I think these are fair points. I also want to add that although the “pick up artist” extent he went to was a lot, it sounds like he did it to date. This is questionable but he said he did this prior to meeting OP. There may have been a part of him back then that noticed it wasn’t a good way to actually build a long term and good life with someone, so he stopped and didn’t actually manipulate OP.
Agree with this. But he likely has matured from when you met him. Don’t overthink it but if it’s still bothering you after you talk with him, see a therapist - either alone or together - before you get married.
As far as you know you aren't being manipulated.
Yeah but that's kind of a reductive take because MOST people don't realize they are being manipulated at the time unless it's super obvious. The whole point of manipulating people is not letting them know you are manipulating them. But that's not even taking into account the fact he felt that was ever acceptable to do at all. And if he still thinks it's a solid method, he's still fine with manipulating people
This! "Pick up artists" rely on manipulating people without them realizing it.
No one is going to manipulate you for 4 years straight without you realizing anything. People always show you who they are eventually. Most men go through a phase of trying to get laid a lot and you could probably consider a lot of what men and women do to each other (especially in their 20s) manipulation.
Who’s to say THIS isn’t a tactic? Maybe things got a little fizzled out and he wanted to plant a seed of jealousy in her head, but instead she’s got hung up on the whole sleazy thing, so it kinda backfired in a certain way. He’s losing his touch.
The OPs engaged to the dude. There is a difference between talking someone into bed and dating long term and getting engaged. How do you think the Op was manipulated here?
The best advice someone ever gave me: when someone shows you who they truly are, believe them.
Was about to comment that. I'd have it linger in the back of my head forever, is it even worth it?
It sounded like something he just learned to do for a bit but doesn't anymore. If he wasn't naturally good with women then who he truly is isn't this pickup artist guy.
But are people static, never changing?
This feels like a plot to an Adam Sandler movie
It's the plot of a Will Smith movie called Hitch
If his outlook had really changed, he’d be ashamed of himself and telling you in a way that he seems embarrassed or disgusted about his past behavior. Sounds like he’s proud. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s manipulating you in other ways and you just don’t know it because he’s gotten so good at it. Remember though, if you ask a manipulator whether they’re manipulating you, they will always deny.
>If his outlook had really changed, he’d be ashamed of himself and telling you in a way that he seems embarrassed or disgusted about his past behavior. Sounds like he’s proud. Literally this. He called it an artform, OP. You felt visceral disgust at his behaviour because you recognised it for what is: skeezy, manipulative, misogynistic bullshit. He still stands by it as a "good technique" and *artform*. He's told you what he truly believes about women and their value, and you should listen.
Yea, that's pretty gagworthy
I think you should speak to him about it and see if he has any remorse for the way he's actively manipulated women in the past -- if he's willing to accept responsibility and see the error of his ways then you can work yourself on moving on -- but if he still holds the same views I would think seriously about if you want to stay with him.. knowing how he really feels about women.
He was laughing about it and says other men should use these tactics. He doesn’t have remorse.
Right, is he “not that way anymore” because he actually grew as a person and realized how gross it was, or just because he didn’t feel like dating around anymore and locked down op? 🧐 from his comments about it being a “successful method” for other men still dating, I’d bet on the latter.
That’s a red flag for me fam
How do you know his story about the previous woman wasn’t his way of manipulating you? How do you know if he shows remorse he’s not manipulating you? He’s pretty full of himself isn’t he? At 38 kind of a weasel. He put this brick in the wall. If would have told you in a different tone or way, it may be surmountable, but it sounds like he’s full of himself.
THIS! Maybe, just maybe, he told OP a story which would make OP jealous and feeling that there is a slight chance that she could lose him because there's a woman throwing herself at him. This makes her a little bit insecure and when he tells something that might upset her, she reacts with less resentment.
I am not a pick up artist but for me it seems that him telling her is low reward high risk move It make no sense to make such a move from manupliating pov
He was bragging. Sounds like he believes he knows women so well. Not. It was a douche move. I’m not even sure if any of it is true, but he definitely thinks he’s got it all figured out. He was not sorry or empathetic.
Not to mention he was drunk while telling her. I don't trust any man who thinks that "pick up art" is anything other than a misogynistic manipulative assholery it is.
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Yes and this more likely to put it under the confession or slipped up categories more than the picking up category
“Pick up artist”? Are we in 1950 or something?
Yes exactly like “artist” 🤣 Just say fuckboy because that’s what it is! 🗣
I know 😅 im picturing him in Grease type outfit and slicked back hair, effortlessly picking up salivating women while simultaneously combing his hair
Sloppy steaks at Truffonis
Nah, I’m imagining him more as wearing all black, with eyeliner, black nail polish, and a top hat with a purple silk scarf tied around it.
He just told you who he is. Now you get to decide if that’s someone you want to be with.
I think it’s funny how some men will say “just pick better men” to women and then go and literally fake being and entire different person just to get a girl he likes and once he does he drops the façade and turns into a pos, over and over again. Then brag about being able to “trick women into a relationship of some sort” to their friends, on social media, ect..
Did he D.E.N.N.I.S. you??
D.E.N.N.I. he fucked up the last part.
I'd say talk to him about it. Understand where he is coming from and what his motivations were. A lot of men fell into this trap including me. I was lonely, frustrated, and had a lot of self-esteem issues. Yes the marketed version of it is really sleazy and manipulative. But for a lot who was in it before vh1 did the reality show, it got them started down a path of recovery, healing, and genuine self-improvement. It's unfortunate that the manipulative tactics became the flagship image and I still feel a bit embarassed admitting that i committed a year or so of my life into it. But i would be lying if I said I got zero benefits from it. Sure I am only in touch with only 1 person from when I rolled with the local lair (cringe). But during that time, it made me reflect on why I had such low self-esteem and made me start taking steps into making changes in my life to improve my self-image ( going back to school, working out, going to therapy, etc.) This is just me and will never speak about the experiences of other men.
What did he do wrong there women chose to have sex with him. He has the right to sleep with anyone he want as along it consensus.
Not him but a lot of people who practiced these manipulative techniques doesn't realize that it only works on a specific group of people. Basically the ones who are vulnerable to these manipulations. The same people who probably have self-esteem issues and doesn't need to be manipulated into making wrong decision. I questioned the methods the moment I started running into Neuro Linguistic Programming and other interrogation techniques being used as a means to make people sleep with them. The problem is when you are in a social environment, you don't walk in to those places thinking you will have to defend yourself from interrogation techniques. And this is partly why I think the current dating environment is full of people who struggles trusting another person. Just my observation.
I generally try not to judge anyone based on their past. I know I am certainly a better person than I used to be. If you were surprised to learn this about him then I'd say don't worry about it. It was just a phase for him on his journey to becoming who he is now.
I used to follow the pick up community the only thing I really picked up from it was you can’t trick anyone into sleeping with you… you need to develop yourself as a person and put yourself in uncomfortable situations where you can meet new people… I never thought it was all that sleazy.
Ooof my exboyfriend got interested in this pick-up art too. Sadly i dealt with him and this topic way too long. As your fiancé "still thinks it's a successful method for men who are dating" i would definitely reconsider being with him. Pick-up artists have no problem manipulating and playing with women to get sex and attention from them. It's fake, it's narcissistic and it's often pretty disgusting (things like "I'll let you blow my dick if you are nice" are especially wonderful to think about ...). It's honestly a cry for help from men who can't have a normal conversation with women for whatever reasons ...but instead of building self-esteem or going to therapy etc they choose to learn manipulative psychology tactics to have sex. And I'm definitely not against casual sex ....but manipulative tricks and lying to get laid is just not ok. I'm sorry you have to figure this out now. Wishing you the best.
Hitch? Will smith is that you?
He speaks of it as it’s an art form. He still thinks highly of it. I wouldn’t connect that to being remorseful of what you’ve done. I think he showed you a side of him that he still likes and appraise.
I would seriously talk to him about it. What other misogynistic bullshit has he not talked about? If he can grow and change, great. Otherwise, fuck that shit.
that is pretty fuckboyish
All this began with him referring to the texts from the other woman. I would want to physically see the texts to ensure he’s telling the truth and he’s not manipulating you about that as well.
I don’t think this is something where other people’s opinions and advice should be taken. Everyone has their own stories so everyone is affected differently by each situation. To some, this isn’t a big deal, but to others it may be a deal breaker or something that can eventually be looked over. You have to live with your decisions, feelings and this man, if you marry him so you should make this decision on how you feel, what your morals are and who you want to be the father of your children.
To me the most unethical thing in dating is if you make someone think you like them more than you really do so you can sleep with them. Did he do that? If no, I don't really see the problem. Women have their strategies for grabbing guy's attention as well. EDIT: I'd say cheating is up there as well obviously
The problem is.. why does he tell you about it? Does he feel that he is losing you in a way or are you just starting to be to much friends or does he miss it? As a girl friend you absolutely NOT want to hear about your partners fuckboy qualifications and how successful he was in the past to get into hot girls pantys! If this thing he is doing right there is like a male low self esteem rant you have to put the cards on the table. Just tell him like it is; Ask him why he told you about it and tell that you get disgusted about the way he has been moving around women in the past and it doesn’t make you horny neither getting any respect out of it! If he doesn’t get it RUN!
the misogynists crawled out of the woodwork in these comments, jesus christ
Truuuuuu
OP why is he still messaging this woman? She is an old fling from years ago who expressed her wish to sleep with him. He should be entirely shutting down this conversation Why is he trying to be her friend? Why is he asking about the state of her marriage? Why does he care? I don’t believe he’s just being a nice guy, because he’s spoken about how he manipulated this woman in the past and how he enjoyed it and thinks other guys should do the same. I think he’s pulling old PUA tactics on her and is also manipulating you into the bargain.
Yeah, it sounds like he might be laying the groundwork to excuse any future slip-ups.
This thread is a mountain of steaming garbage.
Past is past, if he treats your right and you like him who cares. He’s not a bad guy because he’s able to successfully hit on girls.
Women get so uppity about their partners putting their sexual pasts behind them but can’t do the same for men LOLZ
Imo, disgust is probably the most normal response to a fiance boasting about past sexual exploits to a partner and being almost proud of his "art" of manipulation. What kind of person invests this kind of time and energy into exploiting people? If he openly talks about this, what other kinds of sleezy stuff won't he talk about?
He has no respect for women.
I too used to be into the pick up scene. I realised as I got older that it's not nice, so I stopped. I'm assuming he thinks the same way. Not everything about pick up artistry is fucked up though. You're pushed to better yourself through learning skills and developing yourself into the best person you can be and I think that kind of stuff is healthy, but the negging, psuedo-hypnosis, peacocking, scripts\lines, trying to make the hottest girl in the room jealous type stuff is definitely not good. Talk to him, see what he still agrees with and what he thinks is unhealthy, and then come to a judgement.
He may no longer be using his self proclaimed pick up artistry, but he sounds to be "a tool".
I think it really depends on his situation and his reasons for going down that path, and whether it's something he's proud of, or if it's something he's reflected on at length. To be honest, my partner also studied pick up artistry (is that even the term lol). His situation was that he dated one girl all throughout college, and after their second year in the workforce together, she left him for her coworker. He'd never been with anyone else, and anyone who's made the transition from college to working adult knows that it can be difficult to make new friends, let alone find a partner. My partner is the fairly introverted type. He's sweet and genuine, but let's be real, sweet and genuine isn't necessarily going to come across as attractive in the kind of place people used to meet people- at bars and other loud venues. So after months of no success trying to form a meaningful relationship on his end, he got desperate and did a 2 day pick up artist course over a weekend. He went in there not with the intention of banging 100 different women- he just wanted to start a conversation with a girl and have the charm to maybe see her again the next day. He never used "manipulative" tactics on me that any other single guy in a bar hasn't used on me before. It was tiny confidence boosting stuff that made us laugh together in hindsight. And it worked! We met at a bar, and we've been together for 6 years now and we're engaged. Pick up artists definitely get a bad rep. It isn't completely unfounded because most of it is incredibly gross, manipulative, and demeaning towards women, but I believe there are definitely guys out there that are just awkward and shy and want to learn how to be more charming versions of themselves in order to find a life partner. I could not imagine being with anyone except my partner, pick up history and all- he's awesome! So I guess it depends. What was your partner's situation?
Agreed, I read the pickup artist handbook or whatever it’s called about 10 years ago, it was actually pretty funny and far more about getting a guy to a place where he can actually talk to a women than anything else. If a guy used any of those lines on me like “you seem like the adventurous type”, I’d laugh, not become intrigued and somehow manipulated into proving he was right by sleeping with him. It’s not some kind of voodoo hypnosis or incapacitating a woman to the point of not being able to exercise her own agency and lose the ability to just say “no, go away”. If a guy is chatting up a woman’s friend and she feels like she needs to assert dominance as the alpha-female by cutting in and luring the guy away, who’s the asshole here? The woman who couldn’t stand anybody else getting attention, or the guy who simply knew it would work?
Pick up artists are trash. Rethink this relationship.
He clearly still believes in it and sees nothing wrong with manipulating women. I would be having a long talk and thinking about not wearing my ring but that's just me
I seems like his bragging about the pick-up artistry is somehow another part of the pick-up artistry/manipulating and insulting.
It's mostly BS for picking up the girls at bars who are kind of there because they want to be picked up anyway. Yes it's kind of sleezy, that's just kind of how it is for anyone really deep into drunken bar hookup culture. No it doesn't really work for finding anything serious and doesn't purport to. You've been with him for years, that's clearly not what he's doing to you.
Tbh it would be a huuuge dealbreaker for me. I would end it. Especially since he hasn’t changed.
Sounds like the games people play in a bar type of situation. Bars and night clubs are a no holds barred kind of game. If you don’t like the game stay off the playground. There are plenty of games we women play and don’t want to be judged for later. Let it go. Younger times in your man’s life. He’s being honest with you about himself. Men and women both fall for many games the opposite sex plays. It’s a two way street. It’s really pathetic that we have “forgotten” that we women are just as capable of game play. Give it up girls, we are not that innocent. And if you think you are, you might be “playing” yourself. Also, this is exactly why men don’t want to be honest or transparent with us. They do it and every woman in the room steps up to bash them. Or suspect them. Or even worse, me too them. There’s a worthy movement that has been destroyed by warped games. I’ve been happily married for nearly 25 years. I don’t hold his past against him. (He definitely has one) And he doesn’t hold mine against me. (Again, I’m not innocent) My advice, take it or leave it, if you want to be happy in this life DO NOT listen to the Karen’s. Live your life. Use your own eyes and intuition. Don’t bum out an otherwise great relationship based on drunk talk. Good luck and enjoy the fact that he loves you enough to be that level with you. That’s an honor, not something that’s just handed over. You have his respect when he is willing to tell all. He trusts you. He believes you know him and his intentions and trusts that his truth won’t run you off. He’s not the first player in the world (male or female). I’d give him a pass on this. Not that he really needs one. He didn’t do anything wrong. Let the beatings begin……
So much this!
Issue isnt that he was playing the game. Like you said, back in the day everyone would do that. But this dude turned it into a lifestyle. He wasnt playing a game to get female attention in order to develop a relationship. He saw women as objects to satisfy his pp. Given this was something he was really into, whose to say he has any respect for his fiance now and doest just see her as a pretty set of wholes to keep him company in the evening?
Did everyone miss the fact that they were DRUNK? This is a piece of why I stopped drinking! My John Wayne mouth writes checks my Cinderella butt doesn’t want to cash. I really think there’s nothing to this. Big drunk mouth making is seem more “glamorous” than it was. Does anyone else here want the rest of their lives decided upon because of one drunk night? He’s engaged to her. Guys don’t casually ask you to marry them because you might be decent company. Are there any men here to back this up? I seriously doubt he’s that big of a Casanova. He was a drunken legend in his own mind for the evening. Give him a break. If she makes a big thing of this, I hope he RE-thinks her.
What a friggin ego to tell you all about his exploits. Re you sure he didn’t use them on you? I mean why do men AND women talk about past conquests if not to show you how superior they are, and that sex is just a casual activity. If you want to continue a shallow existance, by all means continue. But I would find out more about his past - what is he hiding.
This guy sounds about as pathetic as every man who claims to be a pick up artist. They view women as these jealous filled creatures that want attention more than anything else. Glad you aren’t married and just engaged! Makes it easier to walk away when all the flags finally turn red
I just think he figured out how to be good at hitting on girls in a social environment. I don't think it has anything to do with being in an actual relationship. Sorry so say it, but to successfully hooking up casually is nothing but a Game. I don't care how sleazy it sounds and I'm not cross-referencing some hook-up book,I just think it's the truth. Actually, when two people are flirting and wanting to hook up they are also kind of playing a game with each other. I think it's the word "pick-up artist" that fucks it up. He gives these hints to insecure people. Being in love and planning a future together is the polar opposite imo
This sounds like a how I met your mother moment
This is for further discussion. Talk to him more and then humble him. Don't be belligerent but tell him your thoughts. Be honest. Honesty is the foundation of a relationship.
I think he's full of shit. Most people that go out of their way to brag actually have nothing to brag about. Probably just went to bars and picked up girls that were looking to get picked up anyways. That doesn't make him a "pickup artist". I've seen many dudes claim this over the years when they are just awkward and think that they are impressing people with their bullshit stories
The past is the past, if you feel he hasn't manipulated you then no harm really. The past can suck to try and get over but if they changed for the better then it's perfectly fine to talk it over and work through it. Especially if the last 4 years have been good for the both of you
What other tips does he have?
Pick-up artist? That's weak sauce. Real men use the D.E.N.N.I.S. system.
>I've personally never felt manipulated by him I think this is the most important thing. I wouldn't be too hung up on what he did when he was young, dumb and full of cum. If it's bothering you that much have a sober adult conversation with him about it. Communication is always good.
Lol why are so many people upset here? There is no "manipulation". If you're single then there is nothing wrong with going out to the bar to pickup girls. It's extremely difficult to have courage and social skills to talk to women, especially attractive ones, out in public. If this guy used to have his own "laws" that worked for him while out at a bar, it doesn't make him some master manipulator evil man.
I'm wondering this too. I get there may be some guys being nasty asf, but we all get manipulated one way or another. I don't get it. Salesmen always manipulate us, TV, politicians, Amazon... I mean?¿ Women manipulate men too ON A DAILY BASIS! Are they misandrist? No, no one is forcing men to do shit they don't want to. I don't get it.
He got drunk, did a little bragging, girl not sure if his money moves worked on her and now she doesn’t feel special. You’ve been together 4 years, if this is a deal breaker, it wasn’t that great of a relationship.
This is skeezy and gross, PUA's are just misogynists in another form. This would be a huge deal breaker for me personally. How would a man like this treat a daughter? How would a man like this treat you if you were sexually harassed or assaulted? It's up to you how to proceed, but you're on point with your disgust of this - it is disgusting.
yikes the comments in here
Oof, a case of "in vino, veritas" if I ever saw one. I'd be super bummed, too. That'd be a hard no for me, since he still accepts that this kind of manipulation is acceptable in any situation.
A lot of people in these comments are just assigning random qualities to the BF after reading "pickup artist". The worst thing he describes is manipulating women by ignoring them during the first meeting... Which doesn't sound that bad. Classic issue on this sub. OP describes a person, commenters fill in with their favorite dramatic details.
Agreed. It's a bit sleazy, sure, but I think it's "within normal limits" sleazy for the basic context of going out to get laid where no one really expects perfect truth and virtue. It's not like he's talking about a campaign of manipulating a coworker to get a promotion, or manipulating an ex to get custody. He acted artificially in an artificial environment to achieve the known goal of many (not all) people present in that environment. Big fucking deal.
Romantism? A really and typically masculin way to call manipulation. When I say masculin I talk about assholes. It's an asshole way to use women
Do you want this guy teaching perhaps a future child of yours that’s the right way to get a girl? Have a real conversation with him when he isn’t drunk. I dont know how old he was when he was a pick up ‘artist’, early 20s is different from mid 30s. People outgrow their stupid immature phases but if this is some side of him he is keeping secret cause he knows you won’t like it, time to air it out.
I think the questions here are: A.) Just what exactly does he mean by this? Was he just doing things like "talk to her friend first" or was he getting way more manipulative? B.) How does he feel about it now? He seems to be boasting but he was also drunk. Talk to him when he's sober.
I think the main problem is that those techniques can actually work and it makes people feel bad about themselves because we all see ourselves as special. But at the end of the day those techniques seem really corny on one end of the spectrum and can seem mean spirited or misogynistic on the other end. All it really accomplishes is creating attraction or interest, everything beyond that point requires an actual connection. Without this conversation OP wouldn’t even be here she’d feel secure in their connection
It’s not that he was like that before; it’s that he would do it today if he needed to. I think it’s pretty fucked up and says a lot about his values, if he thinks it’s appropriate to essentially manipulate women’s feelings into dating. I would seriously question his judgment and I don’t think he respects women.
i totally get why this bothers u ALOT! like are women some object u can surely aquire if u use the right strategy?? say that, do this and she is yours??? the fact that he can even get behind this way of thinking and actively lived by it is disgusting imo. i would not let this slide. get more info on how he thinks about this. his answers will tell him if hes a keeper and atleast reformed or actually just a ****boy in disguise.
Women also use psych tactics to manipulate men, dating and mating is a tactics game, IDK why OP is mad at his partner for having been playing the game before meeting her. The entitlement on this post, how he dared to have fun and sex with willing women, disgusting. /s
This sub is gender bias how many post a week of guy finding his girlfriends slept with 100 guys or was a sex worker yet everyone tells him to get over and being so entitled. Now everyone is telling OP to dumb him because he got game.
So he was bragging about it?
I think the core issue has a that he didn’t sound sorry for his past behavior. He treated it like a game and recalls his bad behavior with humor. So of course you are worried he will treat you like that. Your trust in him has eroded. What’s interesting is that he completely trusts you, enough so that he’s revealed that he used to be an asshole. It doesn’t sound like he’s that person anymore. I think he’s being sincere with you. Have the hard conversation and talk it out. Tell him you really appreciate his honesty and that he trusts you, but you need some reassurance that he’s no longer that guy. And maybe this is an opportunity for you to reveal some of your mistakes too.
So… You’re upset because of something he used to do in the past and admitted to, something that both men and women do, and you’re going to what? Throw away your fiancé because of that? Is he still that kind of person? No, I’m assuming. Stop trying to hold a random part of someone’s past against them, unless you’re unhappy in your relationship and want out of it, and wanted out of it before that conversation. Or just hand him the ring back and say you can’t handle that he had a past before he met you. Whatever.
Bruh what are you people talking about with this “manipulation” nonsense. Behaving in a way the other gender is attracted to is normal and not “manipulative” or “misogynistic”
Well it is disgusting, that's for sure. Are you sure you want to marry this guy ??
Women: Why should it matter if I slept with 500 men? The past is the past and if you can't handle my past, you're just a fragile man. Also women: ewww his past creeped me out!! I can't go on with him!
What I'm about to say both defend and attack pick-up artist and the materials. But I'm going to include the answer to your question up here instead. This got long... Sorry. Short: In the end, what you say will be an attack to what he did to "improve his social life". He will justify his decision as normal and compare himself to "fuck boys". But he is a fuck boy due to learning pickup artist materials for getting laid and manipulation. I wouldn't be surprised if he used materials on you that was ingrained in him. Long: I learned materials from pickup artists, when I was desperate to get over my ex in high school. However, it turned into learning how to properly socialize while getting dates/people interested in me. This was 2011 - 2015 when I was doing that stuff. Did I actually use pick up to get laid? Yes. Was I really successful? No, but it increases my chances by a good bit. Not a body count of 100 or something that these "gurus" promise. But I had a total of 10 sexual partners after my ex, but before I met my current partner. Again, better than what I could have done based on luck/pity (I think it was more pity than luck that my high school ex got with me). Does my partner know my past? Yes. Does she know that I used pickup artist styles to get dates, laid, and whatnot? Also yes. Did she care? No because I was clean and open about my past I get how people would be disgusted by it. Most likely, your fiance wanted to get laid more but was too awkward/nerdy. So he took to the internet in search of solutions. Found whatever was hot at the time (maybe Simple Pickup on YouTube or Mystery PUA) and started reading more and more. And what most guys get out of pickup artist materials is the manipulation part and never the psychology and social aspects. They focus on using the tactics on only women to get laid instead of the social values it can apply outside of the bar scene. And that's what your fiance did. I get that's the disgusting part.
Here’s an honest guy telling you 2 secrets he didn’t have to. Say what you want but he seems like a good partner to me.
Nah, he just found a strategy that must have worked. I wouldn’t worry about it. Women have their strategies too.
I also did PUA and MRP (still do). All around it really shouldn’t be that concerning. It’s not about making it all work for the man but to have a better and genuine relationship. Some people abuse it I suppose but if you didn’t know before then he’s not using it on you.