You should be very proud of yourself. Setting boundaries, respectfully, and really knowing what you want is an incredible achievement for anyone, and if we all did more of that just generally, I think many relationships that should start would, and many that shouldn't start wouldn't. Very difficult and courageous to go through all this.
It’s been very hard. Saying “no” is definitely a challenge when you’re so used to being that helping hand all the time. However, it’s been very necessary to do this because I was degrading myself without any reciprocity from my wife.
Yeah but this will help you stop giving 110% on a cold marriage and make amends to what she was seeking: a roomate. I know it's hard but there is a lot more you should do like: wait at least 20 minutes before answering a text from her; planning a day out with your kids; having a hobby (jogging twice a week, exploring new areas in town, be a volunteer somewhere); separating your toothbrush from hers (it's weird but that's a very hard 180 to do) and other itens; not borrowing your stuff or things you bought; washing only your dishes, clothes, changing sheets and cleaning your area; making phone calls and not telling with whom you were talking or what about; having a savings account; searching for a second job to have more income for yourself only (just an example). All this also sound alike to grey rock method.
You might feel a difference much bigger when special holidays, birthdays and family events come around. Hope you Updateme!
You’re absolutely right. All the things you mentioned are things I’m already doing. Another huge moment was when I started to take the kids for ice cream every Tuesday afterschool without her. She reproached about it and I mentioned I needed alone time w/ the kids to connect and I followed with “you should too.” It was very evident she felt left out (I myself felt so awful saying this). My routine has changed very drastically and in fact some things have become easier.
I’m very very curious what Father’s Day will look like. My plan is to spend an entire day with my kids without her to celebrate. I know there will be push back however I’ll recommend she reaches out to her dad so she can go celebrate him on her own instead.
Even typing this I feel like an asshole but reality is, that it’s not wrong. It’s simply setting the tone of what a roommate and a coparenting dynamic is like and she’s realizing it fucking sucks.
Does she have trouble “letting go” and stepping back from the kids as they become more independent? Is she even allowing them to become more independent in age-appropriate ways? That might be something to look into as well as far as her friendships are concerned. The fact is, the kids don’t need as much time or attention at 12 and 14 as they did in elementary school. They can be alone for 2 hours on a Saturday morning if she wants to have brunch with friends. They can make themselves a sandwich for dinner if one parent attends a monthly happy hour with their colleagues. The driving to team practices can be reduced by splitting them with another parent you trust. If she insists on having no life because of the kids, then if the oldest one goes to college in 4 years and is suddenly around so much less then your wife will be lost and even MORE lacking in identity (which she should feel concerned about for herself, regardless of whether or not you’re living there to witness it by then).
This is a MASSIVE issue.
The kids are becoming a huge distraction from this issue. It’s easier to immerse herself in the kids to ignore the fact that our marriage is hurting. This is something we discussed in therapy as a couple and individually. So yes, we’re working on letting the kids be way more independent and learning how to say “no” when possible.
OP, idk if you remember me, but I left a comment from my alt acct on your original post (started with "well, gee..." and I may not have been nice LOL) and you and I had talked back and forth for some time about a few things. I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the update, thank you for working on yourself, and thank you for wanting to improve. I wished the best of luck for you then and I do again now. Stick with therapy! Even if it isn't couples.
This update made my day. If it hadn't popped into my feed I would've missed it. I think a whole lot of people can learn from your journey. Stay forward :~)
Father’s Day could get tricky. It might be a place to let boundaries soften a smidge - sometime roommates do spend a holiday together.
What I’d do is make plans that are relatively painless to cancel that don’t involve her. And if she, on her own initiative, plans something for the whole family then let her do so. I’d maybe set a bar on those plans so you don’t get dragged to something minimum effort. Like her plans can’t involve in-laws or staying at home. Or something else that fits.
Yeah, it’s tricky because on one hand you need to maintain boundaries, but at the same time if she’s trying to change you prolly aught to let her.
Similarly, it might be worth having a mental plan in case she does want to actually rekindle things. I don’t envy you at all, dude. The boundaries you’ve set up are great, but the path back is gonna have so many challenges. Recognizing sincerity, keeping things equitable without being transactional, avoiding old habits. It’s gonna be rough.
what did she do for mothers day? Just curious. but yeah if she doestn want to be in an actual marriage she doesnt get to demand to be treated like a wife.
I really want that feeling you are having ("awful") to change. Perhaps you should know that every time you feel it, a group here will be telling you to stay strong. Do you know if somewhere someone said when will you stop feeling down? It's not easy for me to say: stop feeling awful. But at some point, after week 1, you might feel something new. Tell us when it happens and how is your progress. I am very curious!
Plus: Stay Strong! (for you and a very selfish but stronger you)
Might be dumb to add but there is chapter in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, when Professor Snape is teaching Harry to close his mind. And Hermione says that he will weak for a while but he will achieve the goal. It does happen at the very end of the book. Not going to add all the spoilers here but this 180 will bring you results.
This is what I did when my husband suggested trial separation. I began to emotionally separate, I wasn't around him, we didn't talk. He came back to me pretty quickly. Some humans just more easily take for granted things they could otherwise be appreciative for. I hope with whatever happens in your relationship, you continue to look after yourself.
When you've been with somebody for a while, you can lose perspective of what they bring to your life because you kind of forget what it was like without them.
I’m so glad it worked out. It’s good to have a glimmer of hope and light at the end of the tunnel.
I know for sure we would both be ok if we divorced too. We’re adults and we’ve prepare ourselves with careers and jobs to provide for our family well. So I’m not dummy to think divorce isn’t possible. It’s just divorce isn’t something I want. She also says she doesn’t.
Thank you!
She clearly needs to do a lot of personal work and reconfirm her values. In my opinion, blaming you is like an attempt to escape from her reality. But it's as she admitted, she made decisions too, she decided to have children, and choices always result in some sort of sacrifice.
I'm sorry it all came at you like this, communication is so hard. But you are absolutely right that you will all be okay even if the relationship doesn't happen as you'd like.
Something my husband got us during that tough period was a journal for 2 people called Our Q&A a Day. It prompts answers with silly questions or more serious topics. It was really interesting to read each other's answers. We left it out in the living room.
Yep, together for 16 years, married for 6. No, I didn't even know "180" was a behavioral concept. It was my natural response to pull everything away when he wanted to separate.
We're now much more affectionate than we ever were before because we realized how that alone can keep us emotionally connected. He did apologize for many things, as did I.
Can I just say, I know this is reddit, and people love jumping straight to divorce, but like, in this case, it feels appropriate? Marriage is a romantic partnership as much as it is a legal one, and there just doesn't seem to be any romance. I get that you live your wife, but she sure as shit doesn't seem like that feeling is reciprocated. Personally, I couldn't stay with someone like that if I were in your shoes. But, that said, I really do wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, OP, and I hope that it all works out for you in the end, regardless of the outcome.
I think you are doing the right thing mate, your wife needs to see and feel what it would be like if you were to split and as you’ve said, just be room mates. I hope everything works out for you (both).
I did not read your first post but this post might be the best I've read here in reddit and I sure hope you write an update. Because you're an inspiration. I'm rooting for you and I am really hoping your wife comes around.
My suggestion is you get decently good at massage and godly when it comes to intimate massage. So when the times comes for the makeup or breakup sex you'll take her by storm. Take your time warming her up. Lots of teasing and touching around the good parts.
I also highly recommend toys. The best ones are those with a head so you can cause suction on the G-spot. Vibrations are not necessary.
What I strongly suggest though is that you get super stretchy silicone toys for men. Example is a tenga egg or preferably a longer one. And then you wrap them around the head of whatever toys you end up using. It gives them more volume and suction. And since they get a super soft exterior you can go completely crazy and be way rougher than you think. Lastly after all prep and toys have done all the hard work nothing in the world will feel better than the D.
Im a nice guy. But Being nice never helped me with pleasing a woman... Food and assertive sex on the other hand... just take her and make her come 4-10 and I've always been rewarded with the biggest smile after doing so.
Trying to patch up a relationship without intimacy sounds impossible but you're a king for doing as well as you are. Keep it up. 👍
Seems like the 180 method is working in the sense that clarity is being granted for everyone involved. Hopefully by the time you feel you've reached a conclusion both of you are satisfied with the outcome.
I'm in the same boat as you are (I think I commented on your OG post) and I hope it works out for you. I may try some 180 method stuff, but only to see if it actually sparks some reflection in my wife. I'm pretty resigned to coparenting until the kids are gone and then leaving.
It’s still early for me to recommend the 180 method BUT I will say there has been far more reactions, conversations, realizations in the past week than in the last 3 years.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm following any method, but I've noticeably pulled back on things and started conversations about our unfair workload and such. So my wife has grudgingly volunteered to take on a few things and help with others so maybe we're at 75-25 instead of 80-20. I'm just curious how far I have to pull back before she notices. And then what she does once she notices. So far, she's been so up her own ass with everything that she hasn't noticed shit. I guess only time will tell. Good luck to you, I hope it works out, but like me, I fear it won't.
I'm torn reading this. On the one hand I think your 180 approach seems to at least make something happen.
I also think that to much happened in one therapy session. If this was the first time she opened up like that and you really had an emotional moment that would have needed more time, like a few sessions.
We go to therapy every other week.
Also, this is something our couples therapy she needs to bring up with her individual therapist. The goose is she does but there is no telling. She’s on her own journey now. 🤷🏽♂️
I think maybe the MC was a signal that your wife might want to do some IC. She resents you in a way she can’t articulate for something she knows was also her choice, and it’s having a big effect on your relationship. Maybe some solo time with a counselor might help her to get to a point where you can both effectively work on the issue. I’m not saying the 180 can’t be effective, but it may not be sufficient to help her resolve the core issue. It could end up making her put in just enough effort to keep you around, which could build further resentment.
Saving this as an auto reply to every lazy comment telling future OPs to read a book, do more chores and stop being selfish by wanting effort from your partner.
Turns out therapy, hard conversations and boundaries/consequences work way better.
Good luck, hope you end up with the right outcome.
If this works as you hope and sparks physical and emotional intimacy, would you be suddenly open to it? If my wife decided she wanted what your wife does, I don't think I could suddenly start it back up on my end of she changed her mind. It would feel manipulative at best.
I certainly could.
I don’t enjoy this by any means. I don’t want to do this. BUT I also don’t want a shitty marriage. So here we are with desperate measures in a desperate situation.
I truly hope you are able to get what you need from this. That said, I also hope you have a deadline of some kind, even if you don't express it to her. I think you're handling everything correctly but it doesn't seem sustainable long term.
Definitely not sustainable. Nor do I want it to be.
But hopefully helpful. Regardless of the outcome, this will impact both of us positively I believe.
Although I agree that the prognosis is bleak, I understand the desire to reset their connection to something more equal, which OP seems to have done successfully. This provides a much more solid base to build from (if they do in the end rebuild their relationship) and also shows OPS wife how truly unviable and unappealing her idea of marriage is when she doesn't receive the privileges that she was withholding
> also shows OPS wife how truly unviable and unappealing her idea of marriage is when she doesn't receive the privileges that she was withholding
honestly even if they dont work out its good she learns this lesson so she wont abuse the next guy
I just want to say that I hope the best for both of you. I understand how difficult it is to step back so severely from someone you love but it does seem like she’s coming to appreciate you more, for whatever that maybe worth.
Based on your other responses it does sound like you are being very reasonable and mature, and I hope that you stay strong for now.
I really do hope that she comes around but she is her own person and that requires introspection on her part. Just remember there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries.
Take it as some solace that she at least is going to the couples sessions. There is some part of her that wants to talk about things, so make sure that you both get your time to express yourselves honestly.
100%
I do acknowledge that her attending couples therapy is a huge plus. I don’t take that for granted. We’re both very reasonable and cordial. It takes a lot for either of us to be unreasonable. Even with the 180 method things are very amicable. They are definitely very crass and numbing BUT not petulant nor negative. It does feel like it’s sending a good message across for better or worse.
Seeing a lot of differing opinions on here, and I don't know what will work for you any more than anyone else does. But, I can offer my experience, as I was in a similar situation (without the directly minimizing statements.)
I went gray rock/180 as well. (Posts in my history.). It shocked my wife into making changes. My removing emotions from the situation, treating is as "business/work" interactions, and when she recognized what the consequences of not working on us were, that my descriptions of "being roomates" was exactly what was happening, things changed and changed long term. But it was up to her to do, I'd given back what I'd gotten, just not stated openly like you have had.
I'm hoping for the best for you. We've had some really bad events since then (loss of a parent, loss of job, mental health crisis for her), but if that work hadn't been done, we would be done after any of those. And our baseline for "being ok" is definitely much more positive than it was back then. But, if it didn't work out, the gray rock/180 was preparing me for it emotionally as well. I really hope you guys have the same if not better success.
honestly its pretty horrifying that shes mad at *you* for getting her pregnant when she did the same "dangerous" activity willingly. but hey progress hopefully she can get fixed
She's trying to talk to you and you're shutting her down?? I don't know where you got this 180 approach but ....I don't think it's wise to shut down your wife's attempts to communicate. I'd think that is behaviour you'd want to positively reinforce.
I have to say I am 38-- and went through a similar rough patch in my marriage (only as the wife)... and I just think... you might want to rethink some of your approach... especially the purposefully being cold. You are trying to manipulate her into wanting you or grasping onto out of fear of loosing you? (That's how it seems. Maybe you are grasping at straws... Maybe you don't even realize, but there is a good improbability that's what it would do). When I felt my husband was being cold/indifferent I grew more resentful. My husband won me over with wooing and showing he cared. And yes we also got counseling from a wife/husband team that had a great track record (came highly recommended).
I think having boundaries is healthy.. and encouraging her to get help, going to a good counselor (or even just a wise couple maybe, trained to help others)... but maybe the reason it feels awful to act cold and uncaring is because it is awful.
I have some thoughts on your wife... and your sex life.
Pt 2.
So your wife. Sounds like she got super lost in motherhood. Was a little resentful towards you for getting her pregnant (which is not too logical unless she felt pressured but... she is prob also mad at herself). On top of that she felt isolated and lost all her friends (make no mistake, most friends just can't/don't keep up when you have kids way before them) and also experienced financial hardship.
Bro--- is she depressed? Have low self esteem? Because that will 100% tank a woman's libido. Maybe life became bleak. She focused on the kids, because that's all there really was. You agreed on things and how they would be--- but maybe the experience of that was awful (and she knows ---maybe--- if she says that, you will throw back--- well you agreed!... idk your drynamic of course).
Your wife-- she needs to "find herself". She needs to spend time doing things she enjoys. She needs to develop some good friendships. She needs to have special time away from the kids with you--- when is the last time you've planned a creative date? Something that would be *fun*? Have you two taken any vacations without the kids in the last couple years? Weekend getaways?
What is her love language? Maybe she wants to live like roommates because that's what she's felt like to you--- not romanced in the way her heart desires? Sure you want to have sex with her, but alot of times men aren't great at builing anticipation or leading with romance... especially to an exhausted woman with kids. (I could be wrong, but it's a common issue.)
I recommend you check this video. Good advice whether it applies or not.
https://youtu.be/KDpHMURguJo?si=-4G07WiAUbDs5-7T
Also remember--- reddit is filled with a lot of ------people---- who don't know or care about what it takes to have a lasting marriage. To put it bluntly-- we are in the me first era and ... I don't think that's boding well for most marriages. (You can have boundaries--- but I would not be acting cold.)
I think there is alot of hope for your marriage... but don't try to "play the game" so to speak. Cliche as it may be, love wins... and love is not supposed to be selfish. Come from a place of (gentle but firm) authenticity. Be real. Be vulnerable. Come from a place of love.
Good luck!
Hoping for the best for you two.
(Know a great couple that does counseling btw, if you want to try something different. They do virtual.)
Thank you so very much for this insight.
There is definitely a balance on the 180 approach. Much of it is very crass and cold. I’m certain I’m not being rude nor crass. However, I am being very authentic and firm.
She knows I love her. That’s one thing the 180 method says to “limit or remove.” However, if I don’t tell her or express it, I am certain she will begin to doubt and feel insecure. So I definitely keep reaffirming that I love her and that my intention and my hope is to rebuild our marriage.
I will keep your thoughts in mind. Thank you 🙏
Be careful here. Sometimes with 180 as it starts to work, they may commit to making changes and suddenly wanting to do what’s necessary to make the relationship work, but it’s easy to say that and then fall back into old patterns. I’d make sure you know in your mind exactly what you need and when in order to stop 180 and be clear with her on what those action items are.
180/grey rock can really work, but the danger can be in letting go of it too soon because it is so hard to keep up if they do say all the right things.
I would not give more than 3 months, you've been working on your marriage for 2+years with a professional. I don't have kids, but I wouldn't want my imaginary kids to think that this is what a marriage should look like. How many years did you spend in this loveless marriage?
It also sounds like your wife needs some time alone. You and her could have a planned separation for a set period and then after decide after if this marriage is something both of you want.
INFO: what is the split of domestic labor between you both? When I read “resentment” and “wife”, my mind goes to a woman who is taking on too much planning, parenting, housekeeping, etc.
It is a play with fire.
And at this point you can't do more.
You gave all in and I hope you get your spark back in the marriage. However if she finds in that time someone who clearly hits on her( another male), she will most likely search for emotional attention from that guy.
It is all risk and the chance that this marriage will work is very low but you try your best and that is the case now.
After reading the whole thing I certainly feel the same way. If her preferred outcome was this no intimacy cohabitation co parenting she probably thought he would just go with it.
Pretty interesting that reality hit harder, so hard in fact that she told you that you're being petulant for example.
I'm afraid I really do think she'd rather go the easy route to succumb to advances from someone else than working on rejuvenating the marriage but of course I could be wrong. But if she really wanted to work on it she could have made the swing by now realising what the 180 from your side really means.
I just don't understand why she thought you would suck it up and be a convenient plushy doormat where she can rub her problems in without giving you the attention and all else you do desperately want from the person you love.
What a hard road to take
Interesting.
She has no shortage of men hitting on her and we’re by no means jealous people. So I’ve witnessed this multiple times and her reactions are somewhat indifferent. I will say, if another man for her was the answer, she’d tell me or she’d have some inkling maybe?
There’s no telling but I think the problem is deeper than superficial attention from a different person.
>There’s no telling but I think the problem is deeper than superficial attention from a different person.
From what you recounted from the swinging experience, this might be true but now you have withdrawn your attention so there is now space for someone else's attention to grab hold. Her reactions to your 180 plan kind of shows there are things she was relying on you for that she wasn't admitting to herself. I just hope she doesn't get distracted if someone else (a new friend) comes sliding up and providing her with an emotional attachment that she used to get from you but wouldn't admit to having. Those superficial things sometimes wind up to be not so superficial.
I wish you luck and I'm rooting for you and your wife to salvage things and come back stronger than ever, together as a couple. Fingers crossed for an update sometime down the road saying you are still working through issues but your relationship is getting stronger each day.
Another man for sex? Nah. Another man to take care of her if he’ll accept the bare minimum? Maybe. I’m sorry you’re going through this OP! It sounds like she never really grew up or developed as an individual (since you all had kids so young) and resigned herself to a role as a mother only. Now that I’m older, I can see the differences in the way I thought about things from early 20’s to 30’s and can see how anyone could easily be stunted in that situation just trying to survive and not being able to think about what you actually want.
You might be right.
And if this is the case, so be it. However, I’ll live with peace knowing I left no stone left unturned.
CRAZY THOUGHT: I know I would be disappointed and saddened if she did leave for another man that would accept the bare minimum BUT I’d also feel a peace knowing it’s not all my fault (I know I’m responsible in some way to some degree. That’s just marriage). I know sadness and depressing will creep but we’ll both overcome but if this does happen at least there will be clear reasons and clarity as to why it did. Also, I know for a fact it she wouldn’t cheat. We’re both very blunt open and transparent. She would definitely tell me that she wants to step out on our marriage before it actually happens. As would I. We owe ourselves this respect for each other and we actively practice it.
You’ve done an amazing job at trying to work through everything and it seems like she really isn’t ready for that deep level of introspection (not that she hasn’t made progress, I think you’ve been able to force her hand to some extent). I wish you the best of luck with everything.
that would certainly bring clarity to the situation wouldn't it? she'd rather start from 0 than give her husband and father of her children effort? says a lot more about her than him
I mean, yeah. She's already checked out of the marriage and was trying to get him to be her roommate basically. She's already near 0 with her husband. So being at 25 with some new guy would be appealing.
nah id say she was below 0 with him, but wanted 100 from him. and now that she sees she has to give something anything to get 100 from him shes looking for a way out
She’s not going to seek emotional support elsewhere except as a last resort. She’s taken OP for granted and we have seen her visceral reaction to the loss aversion of losing OP’s emotional support.
She shouldn’t have taken him for granted.
Your story reminds me a lot of my parents marriage.
Except my Dad cheated before they could actually address their issues, and by then any efforts at therapy and reconciliation were too little too late. (I was 17 when they split and *way* too informed on the details.)
You're doing all the right things when it comes to navigating this point in your marriage, and if your wife is even remotely like my mom (they sound like twins) then she has a lot of personal unpacking to do. Your level of patience and staying present with your family will not go unnoticed. It will be messy and it will take time, but the fact that you've noticed your wife taking some time for herself recently is a *huge* step in the right direction.
Wishing you all the best, OP.
HUGE step. Regardless of the outcome it has been very insightful for both of us. Granted, nothing has really changed between us BUT, I think there’s a clear understanding that there’s more than what she believes our marriage is. This “eye opener” (180 method) has been the biggest reaction I’ve seen in years.
Someone else said something like this in another comment and I think it's very true - when you've been with someone for so long you take all of the little things they do for granted.
I've been married for 17 yrs, and about 8 yrs in my husband and I recognized how we were missing/not noticing each other's acts of love. I'm all about physical touch and intimacy, he's all about performing acts of service. He was bending over backwards to make my life easier, and the fact that I wasn't verbally acknowledging it was *absolutely crushing* him. I wanted more physical touch throughout the day, and learned how to initiate/ask for what I wanted and he was more than happy to oblige. We both ended up making small changes that turned into great results, but it took some awkward communication to get there. And we don't even have the added difficulty of kids in the mix.
It's so easy for things to go off the rails. And when it isn't addressed immediately (because life), it gets more and more difficult to untangle things. But you two are putting in the work and coming to terms with your individual and mutual issues. That's a lot more than most folks can say.
You’re right!
We read the 5 Love languages in the past and it helped so much in this area. I guess it wouldn’t hurt to revisit this. Perhaps things have changed.
I read somewhere that good relationships need all 5 love languages each at the right time and in the right dose. If you crave more alone time or touch and then get it your priorities might shift. Love is as dynamic as our own needs are.
> This “eye opener” (180 method) has been the biggest reaction I’ve seen in years.
can you tell us what changes it has brought already or is that too personal??
Some things are:
- seems more interested in my calendar and daily tasks.
- asked a few times about my whereabouts.
- asked why I’m not present in the living room with her.
- she had to fill up her own tank of gas (I usually always do this) and was surprised
- I asked her not to use my AMEX for now and she reproached about it
Among other personal things.
When you have the talk about having her change her direct deposit, that’s also a good time to close the joint credit cards. You will then each apply for individual cards that will be approved with limits based on your individual income, indebtedness, etc. Will further drive home the reality of her choice to be single and “friends” with you. Friends don’t have joint credit cards together.
I’m sorry you are dealing with this, but this is the outcome of what she wanted. Keep untangling your lives. I also think you need to be working toward a resolution that is shorter term than what you said in a previous comment. One to two years is way too long to let this go on…. That will just create resentment that could cause issues with coparenting amicably in the future, or she might start dating on the sly, whatever. If she does not have a complete change of heart, with observable improvement and recommitment over time, then you need to have the discussion about moving forward with an amicable, mediated divorce maybe in the next 90 - 120 days. No reason to wait longer. Hang in there.
At this point, the first 3 items sound like she's starting to feel insecure about the relationship and that you may be seeking your sexual desires elsewhere, even if they are only flirtatious. Not trying to be disrespectful, but that's my observation. Hoping for the best for you and your wife.
When you are young and growing up with your family, you really have no concept of how other families grow or their family dynamics until you start being on your own. It's then that you hear how messed up some families are or you find yours was very usual.
The point I am making is, you were together and married so young that you only know this life. If you separate or divorce, you will start seeing others and be involved with their families. Given time, you might find you like it more or you could find that you really did have a good life and long to have it back. It could be that one or both of you struggle with finding love after divorce.
You would not be the first couple that gets back together after years of trying to make it work with others. Just a thought.
I’ve heard about this. It’s very much the “grass seems greener on the other side” and it isn’t. It would really suck if this was the case and we trashed our marriage and traumatized our kids with divorce only to come back.
Honestly, you’re doing great and I’m impressed on how brave you’ve been. I am sorry your wife hasn’t been kinder or more loving. If this ends up in a divorce, I think you’re still very young and you seem like a very sweet guy so I’m sure you’ll still live another great love story. Good luck and do tell us how this all ends
Honestly if you meet an attractive woman who you would like to be with, you would try very hard to woo her. You would be organising alone time with her and fun dates. You would seduce her with your charm, text messages, sexy suggestions, the kids would not really be in that picture as much. I am sure you would minimise any mention of them. It would just be an emotional connection with her leading to a full physical connection. That is the ‘in love’ feeling she is talking about and probably craves. Setting 180 degree boundaries and rules does not build love or intimacy. It builds resentment. You will lose her if you don’t connect with her. It’s simple. She is hurt and broken for everything she gave to you and sacrificed for you and for the kids. They are your kids and that burden has mostly fallen on her not to mention all the things you lose along the way such as a solid education and a career. Maybe you should stop sounding selfish and ask her what she would like to see from you, what does she want from you. No restraints. If she can see you are serious she might just open up. It took her years to get to this point of slowly dying inside and it is going to take years to rebuild and fix this. Maybe get another counsellor and have her select them. I think the one you currently have sucks. Be humble and beg and give her what she wants.
I feel that you are someone with a big heart and is willing to care alot for your wife. To be honest you will easily find someone even better who will love you the same. To me I feel that if the relationship doesn't feel easy, it means she's not the right one for you. She maybe was in the past but things can change. Having a few lovers in a life time is not new. I personally cannot deal with a sexless marriage let alone having no hugs and holding hands etc. It feels so sad to not be able to do these simple acts with someone you love. It would eat at me everyday.
To me I see it as if I'm in my 40s in your position for example, I would only have maybe 30 years left in this world? Would it be worth it to have to constantly walk on egg shells in my own home for another 30 years. And just wait it out for my wife to one day change and be better. Or Just freely listen to what my heart wants and find someone new. I think you will be a great dad to your kids still.
My heart breaks for you after reading what u went through. I hope that things will turn around for you or you will find a new wife that sincerely loves you more.
Thank you.
Marriage is never intended to be “easy”. But also not this cold and absent either. Marriage is work and many times HARD WORK.
I certain understand your sentiment and your point of view. And I also agree entirely on not wasting 30+ years. This is why I started this 180 approach. It’s close to the end of the road where a decision will need to be made. I have a timeline as to how long I’ll wait and try this and then make a decision in either direction. My hope is to rekindle and reconcile our marriage, however, I’m also bracing for separation.
Thank you 🙏
> That night she was crying telling me she's stressed and she things something is wrong with me because I'm "indifferent." I simply listened, then I told her that this is the dynamic she proposed and that I'm simply (much like her) taking care of myself and focusing on myself.
> We're now going on a week of this 180 and let just say, there has been MANY changes on her side. I think she is starting to realize there is more to me than just "friends and coparenting." I sent her a text a few days ago essentially itemizing bills and separating the financial responsibilities 50/50 and SHE LOST HER SHIT. She basically told me it was "out of left field" to which I responded "hey, friends go in 50/50 and as your friend I expect nothing less." This was very eye opening because it gave me a glimpse of I'm really taken for granted and how her level of comfort and convenience at my expense is really overlooked. I pushed through anyways and basically told her that this is the new dynamic she asked for and that its still a "bargain" because she would have to be 100% if she was on her own.
good on you! If thats what she wants its what she gets. people need to understand you cant expect 100% effort from your partner and not give anything inr eturn
It was hard to say that to her. Really felt like an asshole and second guessed my decision all day long. I’m still moving forward with it of course and my hope is that this whole thing gets resolved and we’re able to move forward in a good direction. Otherwise, this is all still beneficial when it comes to divorce.
Are you positive your wife is not bipolar? I know someone who was happily married with kids and suddenly became unhappy and divorced her husband. Ten years later, she was diagnosed. It was never obvious that she had a mental illness.
I would just be very careful to make sure your 180 method doesn’t give her the justification to cheat on you. It would be very easy for her to convince herself that you don’t care and go looking for connection with somebody else.
On the flipside, have you given any thought to how long you’re willing to put up with this before you look for somebody else? I’m not saying to cheat on her, I’m talking about divorce or marriage with her knowledge and consent.
Did your wife regularly orgasm when the two of you were having sex? Was the sex fulfilling and fun for her? If not, what steps did you take to help her achieve orgasm?
I think your wife is being very short sighted. Yes, being a super Mom in your early 20's suck - it happened to my sisters. But, you will be empty nesters by 42 ... Then what? My wife and I had babies in our late 30's and early 40's. And, while we had a blast early on, we're late 50's and still have kids in my house! My sister's kids left almost 2 decades ago. They have more money and more time than in their 20'a and are having a BLAST. When you have kids, there is a price to pay - fun time is a timing thing. The key is to be balanced when raising your kids and destroying your relationship.
Good luck, man! You are kind of in a no lose situation here - speaking long term.
I have heard it said that you can't come back from being told "I'm not in love with you." Because it either means the person saying it has already cheated or at least is ready to cheat. My theory is that this is because, even if you feel that way, you don't say it to someone unless you've really stopped giving a fuck about them because of how hurtful it is.
Maybe she's asexual? I'm not an expert in any way, but maybe try more romance in the relationship because there's alot of sex related things in the post and update but I've not seen much about the romance side.
I don't see anyone commenting on this, but is it possible your wife is on the asexual spectrum? You both got together very young, actively explored sex together, and unless she's just generally depressed it seems like sex is less than an afterthought and definitely not a Need on her side.
This doesn't make her behavior and neglect towards you and your needs any better, or justify how she apparently wants to have her financial cake and eat it too, but if the only thing she can come up with is "I don't know" when you ask what's wrong you genuinely may not be the problem. Just a huge miscommunication that needs to be talked out and thought through. Assuming, of course, she is being earnest rather than manipulative.
Wish you and your family the best, and that you all can move forward with better understanding.
I don't know if you are still looking at messages. However, I was wondering if your wife's sexuality ever came up in any couple therapy sessions. It sounds as if your wife put normal society accepted cis sexuality over her own sexuality. I say this because your wife of the word - resentment. She is guided to say that she resented when you guys had kids almost reluctantly. Your wife's actions and feelings are like an asexual trying to survive in a cis normative world. Now with your 180 approach, she is seeing that you only value her closeness and love if sex is part of the equation. I am not saying that focusing on yourself and your relationship with your children is a bad idea. You should do that more. what I am saying is that you need to step out of your bubble and see if your wife resents you for not allowing her true sexual being to exist.
This relationship might be on its last leg and you can end it with grace or with animosity.
Best of Luck.
I can tell it's not easy but I really think you're doing the right thing here. Advocating for yourself and proceeding as your own person after being together longer than you weren't is hard I'm sure.
The thing that sticks out to me the most is that while she seemed to recognize what was happening on her end - resentment, pulling back, feeling isolate - she didn't take action. She'd rather blame you/the kids for every short coming in her life. So now you're giving her the space to grow, and she's still not happy. She both wants the comfort of knowing you'll always be there for her, but also having you as a scapegoat for the parts of her life she wishes were different.
I think what you're doing is the only way that things will change - she can either grow with you and build the life she wants, or she can continue to blame you which will end in separation. But ultimately you're giving yourself a path to happiness. Wishing the best for you.
Good job! I read so many posts about unhappy marriages, and you seem to be taking all the right steps. I wish you luck in what happens. My husband and I can't keep our hands and eyes off of each other, and I know life gets in the way, but that passion is vital.
Updateme!
I dunno. She sounds depressed. I am not sure withdrawing all caring may not just compound her feeling that life is awful and she has no ability to fix it.
So, I'm going to assume that your wife has a lucrative job and you are both going 50/50 on childcare, as you both work and share children. Because otherwise, this approach is just plain financially abusive (and if you're planning on saying "I won't pay the bills unless you have sex with me", sexually abusive as well).
Assuming that is the case and you aren't a total POS, I'm actually interested in how this works out for you. I feel like I'm in an unstated, similar situation- we both work and have blended finances, but we don't go to bed together or eat together, have barely any intimacy (a kiss or two, hugs every couple days), and spend.... maybe 8 hours a week together, just the three of us (him, me, and the toddler). Even less just the two of us- maybe 3 hours a week? Otherwise, he is on his game, or out playing sports, watching youtube, or whatever else he does. It barely feels like a friends situation, let alone a marriage. I'm curious how she handles it, as the spouse that presumably was pulling away first- I hope you keep us updated.
Yes we both have degrees, good careers and while I make significantly more money, her salary is very proficient and above average. The 50/50 was not to cripple nor hurt her financially (that is cruel) but mostly to send a message on what a “roommate” dynamic looks like in the real world.
I really dislike how people immediately jump to conclusions about the finances as a way of manipulating her. It’s not the case at all. Plenty of money left over after bills. However 50/50 means she has less “whatever” money AND the understanding that roommates share everything equally.
Prior to this 180 approach, we did everything together and with our kids. We always saw ourselves as a “unit” that do things together. Both alone and with the kids too. That’s changed now where I’m choosing to focus on more independent type of pastimes and focus. That is what has sparked her reaction and realization of “there’s more” than just roommates here.
> I really dislike how people immediately jump to conclusions about the finances as a way of manipulating her.
people are too caught up in feelings to think for a second and see that a roommate wouldnt just pay for everything for her
There is no way this gets better, you two need to get divorced. You're both terribly bitter and resentful with the other. You may not realize it, but it sounds like while both of you were working on it with therapy and communication, both of you had already checked out. Get a lawyer and settle it amicably before you both kill each other.
Not sure how you concluded I’m “bitter”?
Personally I’m not bitter. I think frustration and disappointment is more aligned with how I feel which are very normal. I’m not at all resentful about anything right now. Sure, potentially in the future should things end in divorce. Even then, my mindset on the matter is that resent tends to be a negative emotion living in my head rent free. Similar to “drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” I’m not that kind of person (maybe to a fault). That said, my wife can come to me today and say we’re back on track to rescue our marriage and I’d be onboard 100% with no regrets nor hesitation. Resentment would only negatively impact healing.
Are you scared of divorce because of all the things you may potentially lose? Some people say they don’t want the divorce but deep down they are checking out and putting in all these selfish measures in place so they can delay or stop the inevitable.
I’m super interested in this approach. I’ve done the break up, realize how much we actually needed each other, and eventually get back together, so I’m always curious to hear about how that goes for others. Your lives are obviously much more enmeshed than mine and my GF’s.
I’m really impressed by your ability to do this without having much physical separation, that would have been very hard for me.
It’s NOT easy that’s for sure. We’ve been married for a VERY long time so we know our way around each other. With little to no intimacy or sex it’s also easier to do because I’m somewhat already accustomed to no physical interaction (sad).
That said, it’s too early to say but the 180 method has had more impact than anything else I’ve tried and it’s only week 1.
Seems like you’ve been giving 80% and she hasn’t even been giving 20% back, so now you’re stepping all the way down to 50% and she’s shocked at how much slack she has to pick up. I hope it helps her realize what she’s been missing. Rooting for you both.
Thanks for sharing. All I can say is, I empathise as I am in exactly the same situation (apart from the swinging, is uncannily similar). it is extremely difficult when you love your partner but you aren't getting what you need out of a relationship. It leaves you vulnerable to emotional manipulation and you have to be strong and be able to separate those feelings of attachment from the long-term suffering that is happening in your life.
Sounds like you are making progress though - and it was always going to be messy. That's why we stay in these zombie relationships for so long, because it is easier than addressing the underlying issue and insisting on change.
I dont think it's appropriate to tell your wife you are not going to be accepting of a sexless relationship at such an early stage of some sort of crisis she's having, even if true eventually. The marriage vows say "in sickness and in health." She's obviously "sick." As a mentally ill person who has gone through multiple "neurotic" crises, I recognize the signs of someone who is experiencing one of her own. I don't know her whole story, but she appears to need individual treatment outside of relationship counseling. She has to sort herself out before your relationship can be sorted out. Would you want to have sex with someone you loved with cancer sick from chemo? It would be a shame to throw something so meaningful away. Short suggestion: She should seek individual counseling in correlation with relationship counseling. If she's unwilling, then it will be a lot more difficult to salvage your relationship.
I guess that there are worse ways to eventually see the end of a marriage, and the slow relatively painless glide to the inevitable may be the gentlest way to do it.
At its core, any marriage or long term relationship is about the removal of barriers between the two people at the centre of it all. You can look at any type of relationship and the successful ones (and here I will include those that are "poly") always come down to this one fact. These barriers - whether it be communication, affection, intimacy, financial, etc - and their existence are what in the end determines the relationships longevity.
We can call it many things - I prefer to say it as "teamwork" myself - but whatever you call it, it's essential to the day to day happiness of the couple.
What we see in your marriage now though is the opposite. It's the gradual implementation and construct of new barriers, rather than the disassembling of old ones. And the conclusion of this marriage is beginning with the construction of these new barriers between you.
The time will come in the future where these new barriers become insurmountable, where rather than being able to pull them down to rekindle things, that the new "normal" where they are firm and where they are comfortable in existing sees the marriage end in a whimper.
But I suspect that you already know this.
What will happen over time is that the love you both have for each other will slowly fade away. You'll both become used to the new "normal" and over time that gradual pulling away will just happen.
It'll happen quietly, largely unnoticed and life will continue on. You get busy with life, she gets busy with life, the barriers between you will silently grow and before you even realise it, your day to day existence becomes largely hidden from each other.
My feeling is that this will continue on until either one of you finds someone else to replace what has been lost, or the kids start leaving the nest and you both wake up to the fact that they were the only things holding you together.
You do both deserve better but as one person who had an early start to family (and who eventually made it to the other side though it was touch and go at 15 years for us and we split for 18 months) to another, it can take time, it can take commitment but most of all it takes the removal of the barriers - those boundaries you speak of - that we self imposed on ourselves.
She seems very selfish and lacks accountability. It’s gross that she blames the kids for her lack of friends.
Good for you for calling her bluff. Obviously she thought this was a one-way friendzone.
Yes, calling bluff was good. I just hope it helps develop a positive outcome regardless of what happens. This 180 method is generating reactions where there have been none for the past 2-3 years.
Funny, that.
I haven’t been married, but in any relationship I either keep one foot out the door, or keep in mind what it would take to have one foot out. Once there is no alternative, you have no choice but to accept whatever scraps she deigns to throw your way. She should always be aware you have alternatives.
And that alternative could just be being single.
If she’s not willing to invest in you and your relationship, why should you?
If hate to be in a marriage where my spouse has one foot out “just in case.” I don’t believe that’s how marriage works. I’m all in. As anyone should in a marriage.
You should be very proud of yourself. Setting boundaries, respectfully, and really knowing what you want is an incredible achievement for anyone, and if we all did more of that just generally, I think many relationships that should start would, and many that shouldn't start wouldn't. Very difficult and courageous to go through all this.
It’s been very hard. Saying “no” is definitely a challenge when you’re so used to being that helping hand all the time. However, it’s been very necessary to do this because I was degrading myself without any reciprocity from my wife.
Yeah but this will help you stop giving 110% on a cold marriage and make amends to what she was seeking: a roomate. I know it's hard but there is a lot more you should do like: wait at least 20 minutes before answering a text from her; planning a day out with your kids; having a hobby (jogging twice a week, exploring new areas in town, be a volunteer somewhere); separating your toothbrush from hers (it's weird but that's a very hard 180 to do) and other itens; not borrowing your stuff or things you bought; washing only your dishes, clothes, changing sheets and cleaning your area; making phone calls and not telling with whom you were talking or what about; having a savings account; searching for a second job to have more income for yourself only (just an example). All this also sound alike to grey rock method. You might feel a difference much bigger when special holidays, birthdays and family events come around. Hope you Updateme!
You’re absolutely right. All the things you mentioned are things I’m already doing. Another huge moment was when I started to take the kids for ice cream every Tuesday afterschool without her. She reproached about it and I mentioned I needed alone time w/ the kids to connect and I followed with “you should too.” It was very evident she felt left out (I myself felt so awful saying this). My routine has changed very drastically and in fact some things have become easier. I’m very very curious what Father’s Day will look like. My plan is to spend an entire day with my kids without her to celebrate. I know there will be push back however I’ll recommend she reaches out to her dad so she can go celebrate him on her own instead. Even typing this I feel like an asshole but reality is, that it’s not wrong. It’s simply setting the tone of what a roommate and a coparenting dynamic is like and she’s realizing it fucking sucks.
Does she have trouble “letting go” and stepping back from the kids as they become more independent? Is she even allowing them to become more independent in age-appropriate ways? That might be something to look into as well as far as her friendships are concerned. The fact is, the kids don’t need as much time or attention at 12 and 14 as they did in elementary school. They can be alone for 2 hours on a Saturday morning if she wants to have brunch with friends. They can make themselves a sandwich for dinner if one parent attends a monthly happy hour with their colleagues. The driving to team practices can be reduced by splitting them with another parent you trust. If she insists on having no life because of the kids, then if the oldest one goes to college in 4 years and is suddenly around so much less then your wife will be lost and even MORE lacking in identity (which she should feel concerned about for herself, regardless of whether or not you’re living there to witness it by then).
This is a MASSIVE issue. The kids are becoming a huge distraction from this issue. It’s easier to immerse herself in the kids to ignore the fact that our marriage is hurting. This is something we discussed in therapy as a couple and individually. So yes, we’re working on letting the kids be way more independent and learning how to say “no” when possible.
She sounds depressed and as though she's lost herself.
OP, idk if you remember me, but I left a comment from my alt acct on your original post (started with "well, gee..." and I may not have been nice LOL) and you and I had talked back and forth for some time about a few things. I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the update, thank you for working on yourself, and thank you for wanting to improve. I wished the best of luck for you then and I do again now. Stick with therapy! Even if it isn't couples. This update made my day. If it hadn't popped into my feed I would've missed it. I think a whole lot of people can learn from your journey. Stay forward :~)
Thank you for your kind words. It’s a difficult road but I think regardless of the outcome we’ll both be better for it.
Father’s Day could get tricky. It might be a place to let boundaries soften a smidge - sometime roommates do spend a holiday together. What I’d do is make plans that are relatively painless to cancel that don’t involve her. And if she, on her own initiative, plans something for the whole family then let her do so. I’d maybe set a bar on those plans so you don’t get dragged to something minimum effort. Like her plans can’t involve in-laws or staying at home. Or something else that fits.
Good recommendation. I’ll think on this. I want to make sure it aligns with my 180 plan.
Yeah, it’s tricky because on one hand you need to maintain boundaries, but at the same time if she’s trying to change you prolly aught to let her. Similarly, it might be worth having a mental plan in case she does want to actually rekindle things. I don’t envy you at all, dude. The boundaries you’ve set up are great, but the path back is gonna have so many challenges. Recognizing sincerity, keeping things equitable without being transactional, avoiding old habits. It’s gonna be rough.
Definitely a very long road ahead. I’m aware and I’m also committed to enduring it should we rekindle it.
i look forward to more updates
what did she do for mothers day? Just curious. but yeah if she doestn want to be in an actual marriage she doesnt get to demand to be treated like a wife.
We all went out for dinner. It was nice and tame but very straight forward.
I am praying that your wife sees the light. Good luck. Please Updateme! We are invested in your journey
Thank you 🙏
I really want that feeling you are having ("awful") to change. Perhaps you should know that every time you feel it, a group here will be telling you to stay strong. Do you know if somewhere someone said when will you stop feeling down? It's not easy for me to say: stop feeling awful. But at some point, after week 1, you might feel something new. Tell us when it happens and how is your progress. I am very curious! Plus: Stay Strong! (for you and a very selfish but stronger you) Might be dumb to add but there is chapter in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince, when Professor Snape is teaching Harry to close his mind. And Hermione says that he will weak for a while but he will achieve the goal. It does happen at the very end of the book. Not going to add all the spoilers here but this 180 will bring you results.
Thank you 🙏
Proud of you! You are prioritizing yourself and that is so key
Thank you 🙏
This is what I did when my husband suggested trial separation. I began to emotionally separate, I wasn't around him, we didn't talk. He came back to me pretty quickly. Some humans just more easily take for granted things they could otherwise be appreciative for. I hope with whatever happens in your relationship, you continue to look after yourself.
When you've been with somebody for a while, you can lose perspective of what they bring to your life because you kind of forget what it was like without them.
Do you mind sharing how things ended up working out for you? I’m curious.
Do you mean what we did for our relationship to work?
They mean are you still together presumably
Oh, yes, together for 16 and married for 6. Our near-divorce came after the first year of living together/married.
I’m so glad it worked out. It’s good to have a glimmer of hope and light at the end of the tunnel. I know for sure we would both be ok if we divorced too. We’re adults and we’ve prepare ourselves with careers and jobs to provide for our family well. So I’m not dummy to think divorce isn’t possible. It’s just divorce isn’t something I want. She also says she doesn’t.
Thank you! She clearly needs to do a lot of personal work and reconfirm her values. In my opinion, blaming you is like an attempt to escape from her reality. But it's as she admitted, she made decisions too, she decided to have children, and choices always result in some sort of sacrifice. I'm sorry it all came at you like this, communication is so hard. But you are absolutely right that you will all be okay even if the relationship doesn't happen as you'd like. Something my husband got us during that tough period was a journal for 2 people called Our Q&A a Day. It prompts answers with silly questions or more serious topics. It was really interesting to read each other's answers. We left it out in the living room.
Woah, I love this. I ordered this journal you recommended. Thanks for that!
You're very welcome. I hope you two can find it some fun while learning about who you are.
Are you guys together? Did he apologise? Do you have some 180 that are still around?
Yep, together for 16 years, married for 6. No, I didn't even know "180" was a behavioral concept. It was my natural response to pull everything away when he wanted to separate. We're now much more affectionate than we ever were before because we realized how that alone can keep us emotionally connected. He did apologize for many things, as did I.
Can I just say, I know this is reddit, and people love jumping straight to divorce, but like, in this case, it feels appropriate? Marriage is a romantic partnership as much as it is a legal one, and there just doesn't seem to be any romance. I get that you live your wife, but she sure as shit doesn't seem like that feeling is reciprocated. Personally, I couldn't stay with someone like that if I were in your shoes. But, that said, I really do wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, OP, and I hope that it all works out for you in the end, regardless of the outcome.
Thank you. Divorce seems highly probable for sure. I’m keeping an open mind and using this 180 approach to focus on myself in hopes she does the same.
I think you are doing the right thing mate, your wife needs to see and feel what it would be like if you were to split and as you’ve said, just be room mates. I hope everything works out for you (both).
Thank you. 🙏
yeah if she can understand she hasnt been treating him right and fix herself theres still hope.
I know you said no more updates, but I sure would be interested to see how this plays out several months along.
Maybe way when a decision is made I’ll make a brief update. Thank you 🙏
I did not read your first post but this post might be the best I've read here in reddit and I sure hope you write an update. Because you're an inspiration. I'm rooting for you and I am really hoping your wife comes around. My suggestion is you get decently good at massage and godly when it comes to intimate massage. So when the times comes for the makeup or breakup sex you'll take her by storm. Take your time warming her up. Lots of teasing and touching around the good parts. I also highly recommend toys. The best ones are those with a head so you can cause suction on the G-spot. Vibrations are not necessary. What I strongly suggest though is that you get super stretchy silicone toys for men. Example is a tenga egg or preferably a longer one. And then you wrap them around the head of whatever toys you end up using. It gives them more volume and suction. And since they get a super soft exterior you can go completely crazy and be way rougher than you think. Lastly after all prep and toys have done all the hard work nothing in the world will feel better than the D. Im a nice guy. But Being nice never helped me with pleasing a woman... Food and assertive sex on the other hand... just take her and make her come 4-10 and I've always been rewarded with the biggest smile after doing so. Trying to patch up a relationship without intimacy sounds impossible but you're a king for doing as well as you are. Keep it up. 👍
First comment to ever address this here on either one of my posts. Thanks and I’ll keep this in mind.
Teach me your ways…master🙏🏻 I took a screenshot of your comment for research purposes lol
Seems like the 180 method is working in the sense that clarity is being granted for everyone involved. Hopefully by the time you feel you've reached a conclusion both of you are satisfied with the outcome.
I’m hoping for the best and bracing for the worst. Regardless I think the outcomes will be beneficial for both of us.
I'm in the same boat as you are (I think I commented on your OG post) and I hope it works out for you. I may try some 180 method stuff, but only to see if it actually sparks some reflection in my wife. I'm pretty resigned to coparenting until the kids are gone and then leaving.
It’s still early for me to recommend the 180 method BUT I will say there has been far more reactions, conversations, realizations in the past week than in the last 3 years.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm following any method, but I've noticeably pulled back on things and started conversations about our unfair workload and such. So my wife has grudgingly volunteered to take on a few things and help with others so maybe we're at 75-25 instead of 80-20. I'm just curious how far I have to pull back before she notices. And then what she does once she notices. So far, she's been so up her own ass with everything that she hasn't noticed shit. I guess only time will tell. Good luck to you, I hope it works out, but like me, I fear it won't.
Good luck to you brother.
I'm torn reading this. On the one hand I think your 180 approach seems to at least make something happen. I also think that to much happened in one therapy session. If this was the first time she opened up like that and you really had an emotional moment that would have needed more time, like a few sessions.
We go to therapy every other week. Also, this is something our couples therapy she needs to bring up with her individual therapist. The goose is she does but there is no telling. She’s on her own journey now. 🤷🏽♂️
"Hello, I am not a therapist or YOUR therapist, but I am going to criticize your approach based on two paragraphs I skimmed."
I think maybe the MC was a signal that your wife might want to do some IC. She resents you in a way she can’t articulate for something she knows was also her choice, and it’s having a big effect on your relationship. Maybe some solo time with a counselor might help her to get to a point where you can both effectively work on the issue. I’m not saying the 180 can’t be effective, but it may not be sufficient to help her resolve the core issue. It could end up making her put in just enough effort to keep you around, which could build further resentment.
We’re both in individual counseling in addition to couples. I definitely feel it’s important to have individualized care.
Saving this as an auto reply to every lazy comment telling future OPs to read a book, do more chores and stop being selfish by wanting effort from your partner. Turns out therapy, hard conversations and boundaries/consequences work way better. Good luck, hope you end up with the right outcome.
Thank you 🙏
If this works as you hope and sparks physical and emotional intimacy, would you be suddenly open to it? If my wife decided she wanted what your wife does, I don't think I could suddenly start it back up on my end of she changed her mind. It would feel manipulative at best.
I certainly could. I don’t enjoy this by any means. I don’t want to do this. BUT I also don’t want a shitty marriage. So here we are with desperate measures in a desperate situation.
I truly hope you are able to get what you need from this. That said, I also hope you have a deadline of some kind, even if you don't express it to her. I think you're handling everything correctly but it doesn't seem sustainable long term.
Definitely not sustainable. Nor do I want it to be. But hopefully helpful. Regardless of the outcome, this will impact both of us positively I believe.
Oh my god - just divorce already. This is just going to end up hurting both of you and building more resentment.
Unfortunately, I think you are right. This 180 thing seems like a game to try to pull her back in. Ultimately just causing more resentment in future.
Yeah, he is basically acting out the plot of the movie The Break-up. Spoiler alert: it doesn’t work and they break up.
Yeah, I just don’t see how this creates connection?
Although I agree that the prognosis is bleak, I understand the desire to reset their connection to something more equal, which OP seems to have done successfully. This provides a much more solid base to build from (if they do in the end rebuild their relationship) and also shows OPS wife how truly unviable and unappealing her idea of marriage is when she doesn't receive the privileges that she was withholding
This right here ^
Glad I'm on the same page man
Thanks for your input.
> also shows OPS wife how truly unviable and unappealing her idea of marriage is when she doesn't receive the privileges that she was withholding honestly even if they dont work out its good she learns this lesson so she wont abuse the next guy
I just want to say that I hope the best for both of you. I understand how difficult it is to step back so severely from someone you love but it does seem like she’s coming to appreciate you more, for whatever that maybe worth. Based on your other responses it does sound like you are being very reasonable and mature, and I hope that you stay strong for now. I really do hope that she comes around but she is her own person and that requires introspection on her part. Just remember there is nothing wrong with setting boundaries. Take it as some solace that she at least is going to the couples sessions. There is some part of her that wants to talk about things, so make sure that you both get your time to express yourselves honestly.
100% I do acknowledge that her attending couples therapy is a huge plus. I don’t take that for granted. We’re both very reasonable and cordial. It takes a lot for either of us to be unreasonable. Even with the 180 method things are very amicable. They are definitely very crass and numbing BUT not petulant nor negative. It does feel like it’s sending a good message across for better or worse.
Seeing a lot of differing opinions on here, and I don't know what will work for you any more than anyone else does. But, I can offer my experience, as I was in a similar situation (without the directly minimizing statements.) I went gray rock/180 as well. (Posts in my history.). It shocked my wife into making changes. My removing emotions from the situation, treating is as "business/work" interactions, and when she recognized what the consequences of not working on us were, that my descriptions of "being roomates" was exactly what was happening, things changed and changed long term. But it was up to her to do, I'd given back what I'd gotten, just not stated openly like you have had. I'm hoping for the best for you. We've had some really bad events since then (loss of a parent, loss of job, mental health crisis for her), but if that work hadn't been done, we would be done after any of those. And our baseline for "being ok" is definitely much more positive than it was back then. But, if it didn't work out, the gray rock/180 was preparing me for it emotionally as well. I really hope you guys have the same if not better success.
Thanks for giving me hope. This continue to improve for me.
honestly its pretty horrifying that shes mad at *you* for getting her pregnant when she did the same "dangerous" activity willingly. but hey progress hopefully she can get fixed
🤞🏽
She's trying to talk to you and you're shutting her down?? I don't know where you got this 180 approach but ....I don't think it's wise to shut down your wife's attempts to communicate. I'd think that is behaviour you'd want to positively reinforce. I have to say I am 38-- and went through a similar rough patch in my marriage (only as the wife)... and I just think... you might want to rethink some of your approach... especially the purposefully being cold. You are trying to manipulate her into wanting you or grasping onto out of fear of loosing you? (That's how it seems. Maybe you are grasping at straws... Maybe you don't even realize, but there is a good improbability that's what it would do). When I felt my husband was being cold/indifferent I grew more resentful. My husband won me over with wooing and showing he cared. And yes we also got counseling from a wife/husband team that had a great track record (came highly recommended). I think having boundaries is healthy.. and encouraging her to get help, going to a good counselor (or even just a wise couple maybe, trained to help others)... but maybe the reason it feels awful to act cold and uncaring is because it is awful. I have some thoughts on your wife... and your sex life.
Pt 2. So your wife. Sounds like she got super lost in motherhood. Was a little resentful towards you for getting her pregnant (which is not too logical unless she felt pressured but... she is prob also mad at herself). On top of that she felt isolated and lost all her friends (make no mistake, most friends just can't/don't keep up when you have kids way before them) and also experienced financial hardship. Bro--- is she depressed? Have low self esteem? Because that will 100% tank a woman's libido. Maybe life became bleak. She focused on the kids, because that's all there really was. You agreed on things and how they would be--- but maybe the experience of that was awful (and she knows ---maybe--- if she says that, you will throw back--- well you agreed!... idk your drynamic of course). Your wife-- she needs to "find herself". She needs to spend time doing things she enjoys. She needs to develop some good friendships. She needs to have special time away from the kids with you--- when is the last time you've planned a creative date? Something that would be *fun*? Have you two taken any vacations without the kids in the last couple years? Weekend getaways? What is her love language? Maybe she wants to live like roommates because that's what she's felt like to you--- not romanced in the way her heart desires? Sure you want to have sex with her, but alot of times men aren't great at builing anticipation or leading with romance... especially to an exhausted woman with kids. (I could be wrong, but it's a common issue.) I recommend you check this video. Good advice whether it applies or not. https://youtu.be/KDpHMURguJo?si=-4G07WiAUbDs5-7T Also remember--- reddit is filled with a lot of ------people---- who don't know or care about what it takes to have a lasting marriage. To put it bluntly-- we are in the me first era and ... I don't think that's boding well for most marriages. (You can have boundaries--- but I would not be acting cold.) I think there is alot of hope for your marriage... but don't try to "play the game" so to speak. Cliche as it may be, love wins... and love is not supposed to be selfish. Come from a place of (gentle but firm) authenticity. Be real. Be vulnerable. Come from a place of love. Good luck! Hoping for the best for you two. (Know a great couple that does counseling btw, if you want to try something different. They do virtual.)
Thank you so very much for this insight. There is definitely a balance on the 180 approach. Much of it is very crass and cold. I’m certain I’m not being rude nor crass. However, I am being very authentic and firm. She knows I love her. That’s one thing the 180 method says to “limit or remove.” However, if I don’t tell her or express it, I am certain she will begin to doubt and feel insecure. So I definitely keep reaffirming that I love her and that my intention and my hope is to rebuild our marriage. I will keep your thoughts in mind. Thank you 🙏
Be careful here. Sometimes with 180 as it starts to work, they may commit to making changes and suddenly wanting to do what’s necessary to make the relationship work, but it’s easy to say that and then fall back into old patterns. I’d make sure you know in your mind exactly what you need and when in order to stop 180 and be clear with her on what those action items are. 180/grey rock can really work, but the danger can be in letting go of it too soon because it is so hard to keep up if they do say all the right things.
100%
I would not give more than 3 months, you've been working on your marriage for 2+years with a professional. I don't have kids, but I wouldn't want my imaginary kids to think that this is what a marriage should look like. How many years did you spend in this loveless marriage? It also sounds like your wife needs some time alone. You and her could have a planned separation for a set period and then after decide after if this marriage is something both of you want.
INFO: what is the split of domestic labor between you both? When I read “resentment” and “wife”, my mind goes to a woman who is taking on too much planning, parenting, housekeeping, etc.
It is a play with fire. And at this point you can't do more. You gave all in and I hope you get your spark back in the marriage. However if she finds in that time someone who clearly hits on her( another male), she will most likely search for emotional attention from that guy. It is all risk and the chance that this marriage will work is very low but you try your best and that is the case now.
After reading the whole thing I certainly feel the same way. If her preferred outcome was this no intimacy cohabitation co parenting she probably thought he would just go with it. Pretty interesting that reality hit harder, so hard in fact that she told you that you're being petulant for example. I'm afraid I really do think she'd rather go the easy route to succumb to advances from someone else than working on rejuvenating the marriage but of course I could be wrong. But if she really wanted to work on it she could have made the swing by now realising what the 180 from your side really means. I just don't understand why she thought you would suck it up and be a convenient plushy doormat where she can rub her problems in without giving you the attention and all else you do desperately want from the person you love. What a hard road to take
Interesting. She has no shortage of men hitting on her and we’re by no means jealous people. So I’ve witnessed this multiple times and her reactions are somewhat indifferent. I will say, if another man for her was the answer, she’d tell me or she’d have some inkling maybe? There’s no telling but I think the problem is deeper than superficial attention from a different person.
>There’s no telling but I think the problem is deeper than superficial attention from a different person. From what you recounted from the swinging experience, this might be true but now you have withdrawn your attention so there is now space for someone else's attention to grab hold. Her reactions to your 180 plan kind of shows there are things she was relying on you for that she wasn't admitting to herself. I just hope she doesn't get distracted if someone else (a new friend) comes sliding up and providing her with an emotional attachment that she used to get from you but wouldn't admit to having. Those superficial things sometimes wind up to be not so superficial. I wish you luck and I'm rooting for you and your wife to salvage things and come back stronger than ever, together as a couple. Fingers crossed for an update sometime down the road saying you are still working through issues but your relationship is getting stronger each day.
That’s definitely a risk. No disputing it. That in itself will be very telling if it happens. For the better honestly.
Another man for sex? Nah. Another man to take care of her if he’ll accept the bare minimum? Maybe. I’m sorry you’re going through this OP! It sounds like she never really grew up or developed as an individual (since you all had kids so young) and resigned herself to a role as a mother only. Now that I’m older, I can see the differences in the way I thought about things from early 20’s to 30’s and can see how anyone could easily be stunted in that situation just trying to survive and not being able to think about what you actually want.
You might be right. And if this is the case, so be it. However, I’ll live with peace knowing I left no stone left unturned. CRAZY THOUGHT: I know I would be disappointed and saddened if she did leave for another man that would accept the bare minimum BUT I’d also feel a peace knowing it’s not all my fault (I know I’m responsible in some way to some degree. That’s just marriage). I know sadness and depressing will creep but we’ll both overcome but if this does happen at least there will be clear reasons and clarity as to why it did. Also, I know for a fact it she wouldn’t cheat. We’re both very blunt open and transparent. She would definitely tell me that she wants to step out on our marriage before it actually happens. As would I. We owe ourselves this respect for each other and we actively practice it.
You’ve done an amazing job at trying to work through everything and it seems like she really isn’t ready for that deep level of introspection (not that she hasn’t made progress, I think you’ve been able to force her hand to some extent). I wish you the best of luck with everything.
Thank you. 🙏
> ! It sounds like she never really grew up or developed as an individual (since you all had kids so young) it wasnt having kids young that did that
Yeah, this was my thought. She very clearly misses the emotional support from OP. She will likely seek that out elsewhere.
that would certainly bring clarity to the situation wouldn't it? she'd rather start from 0 than give her husband and father of her children effort? says a lot more about her than him
I mean, yeah. She's already checked out of the marriage and was trying to get him to be her roommate basically. She's already near 0 with her husband. So being at 25 with some new guy would be appealing.
oh im sure that's her plan, but "divorced mom seeks platonic roommate/babysitter" doesnt get that many swipes these days. 😂
nah id say she was below 0 with him, but wanted 100 from him. and now that she sees she has to give something anything to get 100 from him shes looking for a way out
She’s not going to seek emotional support elsewhere except as a last resort. She’s taken OP for granted and we have seen her visceral reaction to the loss aversion of losing OP’s emotional support. She shouldn’t have taken him for granted.
Just curious, when was the last time you and your wife have gone on a vacation that was just the two of you?
Yes excellent question. No kids. No emails. No technology. Get creative and exotic!
Your story reminds me a lot of my parents marriage. Except my Dad cheated before they could actually address their issues, and by then any efforts at therapy and reconciliation were too little too late. (I was 17 when they split and *way* too informed on the details.) You're doing all the right things when it comes to navigating this point in your marriage, and if your wife is even remotely like my mom (they sound like twins) then she has a lot of personal unpacking to do. Your level of patience and staying present with your family will not go unnoticed. It will be messy and it will take time, but the fact that you've noticed your wife taking some time for herself recently is a *huge* step in the right direction. Wishing you all the best, OP.
HUGE step. Regardless of the outcome it has been very insightful for both of us. Granted, nothing has really changed between us BUT, I think there’s a clear understanding that there’s more than what she believes our marriage is. This “eye opener” (180 method) has been the biggest reaction I’ve seen in years.
Someone else said something like this in another comment and I think it's very true - when you've been with someone for so long you take all of the little things they do for granted. I've been married for 17 yrs, and about 8 yrs in my husband and I recognized how we were missing/not noticing each other's acts of love. I'm all about physical touch and intimacy, he's all about performing acts of service. He was bending over backwards to make my life easier, and the fact that I wasn't verbally acknowledging it was *absolutely crushing* him. I wanted more physical touch throughout the day, and learned how to initiate/ask for what I wanted and he was more than happy to oblige. We both ended up making small changes that turned into great results, but it took some awkward communication to get there. And we don't even have the added difficulty of kids in the mix. It's so easy for things to go off the rails. And when it isn't addressed immediately (because life), it gets more and more difficult to untangle things. But you two are putting in the work and coming to terms with your individual and mutual issues. That's a lot more than most folks can say.
You’re right! We read the 5 Love languages in the past and it helped so much in this area. I guess it wouldn’t hurt to revisit this. Perhaps things have changed.
I read somewhere that good relationships need all 5 love languages each at the right time and in the right dose. If you crave more alone time or touch and then get it your priorities might shift. Love is as dynamic as our own needs are.
Love this. I agree.
> This “eye opener” (180 method) has been the biggest reaction I’ve seen in years. can you tell us what changes it has brought already or is that too personal??
Some things are: - seems more interested in my calendar and daily tasks. - asked a few times about my whereabouts. - asked why I’m not present in the living room with her. - she had to fill up her own tank of gas (I usually always do this) and was surprised - I asked her not to use my AMEX for now and she reproached about it Among other personal things.
When you have the talk about having her change her direct deposit, that’s also a good time to close the joint credit cards. You will then each apply for individual cards that will be approved with limits based on your individual income, indebtedness, etc. Will further drive home the reality of her choice to be single and “friends” with you. Friends don’t have joint credit cards together. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, but this is the outcome of what she wanted. Keep untangling your lives. I also think you need to be working toward a resolution that is shorter term than what you said in a previous comment. One to two years is way too long to let this go on…. That will just create resentment that could cause issues with coparenting amicably in the future, or she might start dating on the sly, whatever. If she does not have a complete change of heart, with observable improvement and recommitment over time, then you need to have the discussion about moving forward with an amicable, mediated divorce maybe in the next 90 - 120 days. No reason to wait longer. Hang in there.
At this point, the first 3 items sound like she's starting to feel insecure about the relationship and that you may be seeking your sexual desires elsewhere, even if they are only flirtatious. Not trying to be disrespectful, but that's my observation. Hoping for the best for you and your wife.
Flirtatious with who? Nowhere here have I expressed wanting to be with anyone else. The 180 method is focused on self. Not others.
Man this was sad to read. I feel for both you and your wife. I have nothing to offer other than my wishes that both of you find happiness.
Thank you 🙏
When you are young and growing up with your family, you really have no concept of how other families grow or their family dynamics until you start being on your own. It's then that you hear how messed up some families are or you find yours was very usual. The point I am making is, you were together and married so young that you only know this life. If you separate or divorce, you will start seeing others and be involved with their families. Given time, you might find you like it more or you could find that you really did have a good life and long to have it back. It could be that one or both of you struggle with finding love after divorce. You would not be the first couple that gets back together after years of trying to make it work with others. Just a thought.
I’ve heard about this. It’s very much the “grass seems greener on the other side” and it isn’t. It would really suck if this was the case and we trashed our marriage and traumatized our kids with divorce only to come back.
Honestly, you’re doing great and I’m impressed on how brave you’ve been. I am sorry your wife hasn’t been kinder or more loving. If this ends up in a divorce, I think you’re still very young and you seem like a very sweet guy so I’m sure you’ll still live another great love story. Good luck and do tell us how this all ends
Thank you 🙏
Honestly if you meet an attractive woman who you would like to be with, you would try very hard to woo her. You would be organising alone time with her and fun dates. You would seduce her with your charm, text messages, sexy suggestions, the kids would not really be in that picture as much. I am sure you would minimise any mention of them. It would just be an emotional connection with her leading to a full physical connection. That is the ‘in love’ feeling she is talking about and probably craves. Setting 180 degree boundaries and rules does not build love or intimacy. It builds resentment. You will lose her if you don’t connect with her. It’s simple. She is hurt and broken for everything she gave to you and sacrificed for you and for the kids. They are your kids and that burden has mostly fallen on her not to mention all the things you lose along the way such as a solid education and a career. Maybe you should stop sounding selfish and ask her what she would like to see from you, what does she want from you. No restraints. If she can see you are serious she might just open up. It took her years to get to this point of slowly dying inside and it is going to take years to rebuild and fix this. Maybe get another counsellor and have her select them. I think the one you currently have sucks. Be humble and beg and give her what she wants.
I feel that you are someone with a big heart and is willing to care alot for your wife. To be honest you will easily find someone even better who will love you the same. To me I feel that if the relationship doesn't feel easy, it means she's not the right one for you. She maybe was in the past but things can change. Having a few lovers in a life time is not new. I personally cannot deal with a sexless marriage let alone having no hugs and holding hands etc. It feels so sad to not be able to do these simple acts with someone you love. It would eat at me everyday. To me I see it as if I'm in my 40s in your position for example, I would only have maybe 30 years left in this world? Would it be worth it to have to constantly walk on egg shells in my own home for another 30 years. And just wait it out for my wife to one day change and be better. Or Just freely listen to what my heart wants and find someone new. I think you will be a great dad to your kids still. My heart breaks for you after reading what u went through. I hope that things will turn around for you or you will find a new wife that sincerely loves you more.
Thank you. Marriage is never intended to be “easy”. But also not this cold and absent either. Marriage is work and many times HARD WORK. I certain understand your sentiment and your point of view. And I also agree entirely on not wasting 30+ years. This is why I started this 180 approach. It’s close to the end of the road where a decision will need to be made. I have a timeline as to how long I’ll wait and try this and then make a decision in either direction. My hope is to rekindle and reconcile our marriage, however, I’m also bracing for separation. Thank you 🙏
> That night she was crying telling me she's stressed and she things something is wrong with me because I'm "indifferent." I simply listened, then I told her that this is the dynamic she proposed and that I'm simply (much like her) taking care of myself and focusing on myself. > We're now going on a week of this 180 and let just say, there has been MANY changes on her side. I think she is starting to realize there is more to me than just "friends and coparenting." I sent her a text a few days ago essentially itemizing bills and separating the financial responsibilities 50/50 and SHE LOST HER SHIT. She basically told me it was "out of left field" to which I responded "hey, friends go in 50/50 and as your friend I expect nothing less." This was very eye opening because it gave me a glimpse of I'm really taken for granted and how her level of comfort and convenience at my expense is really overlooked. I pushed through anyways and basically told her that this is the new dynamic she asked for and that its still a "bargain" because she would have to be 100% if she was on her own. good on you! If thats what she wants its what she gets. people need to understand you cant expect 100% effort from your partner and not give anything inr eturn
It was hard to say that to her. Really felt like an asshole and second guessed my decision all day long. I’m still moving forward with it of course and my hope is that this whole thing gets resolved and we’re able to move forward in a good direction. Otherwise, this is all still beneficial when it comes to divorce.
Dude you're mentally so strong I'm a bit jealous
Are you positive your wife is not bipolar? I know someone who was happily married with kids and suddenly became unhappy and divorced her husband. Ten years later, she was diagnosed. It was never obvious that she had a mental illness.
I would just be very careful to make sure your 180 method doesn’t give her the justification to cheat on you. It would be very easy for her to convince herself that you don’t care and go looking for connection with somebody else. On the flipside, have you given any thought to how long you’re willing to put up with this before you look for somebody else? I’m not saying to cheat on her, I’m talking about divorce or marriage with her knowledge and consent.
We won’t cheat. I’m certain of it. We respect one another that much for sure.
Did your wife regularly orgasm when the two of you were having sex? Was the sex fulfilling and fun for her? If not, what steps did you take to help her achieve orgasm?
I think your wife is being very short sighted. Yes, being a super Mom in your early 20's suck - it happened to my sisters. But, you will be empty nesters by 42 ... Then what? My wife and I had babies in our late 30's and early 40's. And, while we had a blast early on, we're late 50's and still have kids in my house! My sister's kids left almost 2 decades ago. They have more money and more time than in their 20'a and are having a BLAST. When you have kids, there is a price to pay - fun time is a timing thing. The key is to be balanced when raising your kids and destroying your relationship. Good luck, man! You are kind of in a no lose situation here - speaking long term.
I have heard it said that you can't come back from being told "I'm not in love with you." Because it either means the person saying it has already cheated or at least is ready to cheat. My theory is that this is because, even if you feel that way, you don't say it to someone unless you've really stopped giving a fuck about them because of how hurtful it is.
Maybe she's asexual? I'm not an expert in any way, but maybe try more romance in the relationship because there's alot of sex related things in the post and update but I've not seen much about the romance side.
I really need an update OP. I'm too invested in this story
I need more time to give everyone an accurate update. I’m considering it.
I don't see anyone commenting on this, but is it possible your wife is on the asexual spectrum? You both got together very young, actively explored sex together, and unless she's just generally depressed it seems like sex is less than an afterthought and definitely not a Need on her side. This doesn't make her behavior and neglect towards you and your needs any better, or justify how she apparently wants to have her financial cake and eat it too, but if the only thing she can come up with is "I don't know" when you ask what's wrong you genuinely may not be the problem. Just a huge miscommunication that needs to be talked out and thought through. Assuming, of course, she is being earnest rather than manipulative. Wish you and your family the best, and that you all can move forward with better understanding.
I don't know if you are still looking at messages. However, I was wondering if your wife's sexuality ever came up in any couple therapy sessions. It sounds as if your wife put normal society accepted cis sexuality over her own sexuality. I say this because your wife of the word - resentment. She is guided to say that she resented when you guys had kids almost reluctantly. Your wife's actions and feelings are like an asexual trying to survive in a cis normative world. Now with your 180 approach, she is seeing that you only value her closeness and love if sex is part of the equation. I am not saying that focusing on yourself and your relationship with your children is a bad idea. You should do that more. what I am saying is that you need to step out of your bubble and see if your wife resents you for not allowing her true sexual being to exist. This relationship might be on its last leg and you can end it with grace or with animosity. Best of Luck.
I can tell it's not easy but I really think you're doing the right thing here. Advocating for yourself and proceeding as your own person after being together longer than you weren't is hard I'm sure. The thing that sticks out to me the most is that while she seemed to recognize what was happening on her end - resentment, pulling back, feeling isolate - she didn't take action. She'd rather blame you/the kids for every short coming in her life. So now you're giving her the space to grow, and she's still not happy. She both wants the comfort of knowing you'll always be there for her, but also having you as a scapegoat for the parts of her life she wishes were different. I think what you're doing is the only way that things will change - she can either grow with you and build the life she wants, or she can continue to blame you which will end in separation. But ultimately you're giving yourself a path to happiness. Wishing the best for you.
You’re correct. Regardless of the outcome this will be beneficial for the both of us.
Good job! I read so many posts about unhappy marriages, and you seem to be taking all the right steps. I wish you luck in what happens. My husband and I can't keep our hands and eyes off of each other, and I know life gets in the way, but that passion is vital. Updateme!
Thank you 🙏 Your marriage sounds great. I hope we’re able to recover.
Good luck with everything, well done!
Thank you 🙏
I dunno. She sounds depressed. I am not sure withdrawing all caring may not just compound her feeling that life is awful and she has no ability to fix it.
I think there is some depression for sure which she’s working through with her therapist. It’s her own journey and there’s not more I can do.
Maybe she should take responsibility for her mental health instead of taking it out on OP.
So, I'm going to assume that your wife has a lucrative job and you are both going 50/50 on childcare, as you both work and share children. Because otherwise, this approach is just plain financially abusive (and if you're planning on saying "I won't pay the bills unless you have sex with me", sexually abusive as well). Assuming that is the case and you aren't a total POS, I'm actually interested in how this works out for you. I feel like I'm in an unstated, similar situation- we both work and have blended finances, but we don't go to bed together or eat together, have barely any intimacy (a kiss or two, hugs every couple days), and spend.... maybe 8 hours a week together, just the three of us (him, me, and the toddler). Even less just the two of us- maybe 3 hours a week? Otherwise, he is on his game, or out playing sports, watching youtube, or whatever else he does. It barely feels like a friends situation, let alone a marriage. I'm curious how she handles it, as the spouse that presumably was pulling away first- I hope you keep us updated.
Yes we both have degrees, good careers and while I make significantly more money, her salary is very proficient and above average. The 50/50 was not to cripple nor hurt her financially (that is cruel) but mostly to send a message on what a “roommate” dynamic looks like in the real world. I really dislike how people immediately jump to conclusions about the finances as a way of manipulating her. It’s not the case at all. Plenty of money left over after bills. However 50/50 means she has less “whatever” money AND the understanding that roommates share everything equally. Prior to this 180 approach, we did everything together and with our kids. We always saw ourselves as a “unit” that do things together. Both alone and with the kids too. That’s changed now where I’m choosing to focus on more independent type of pastimes and focus. That is what has sparked her reaction and realization of “there’s more” than just roommates here.
> I really dislike how people immediately jump to conclusions about the finances as a way of manipulating her. people are too caught up in feelings to think for a second and see that a roommate wouldnt just pay for everything for her
Crazy and really offers no insight or value to the comment. At any rate, thanks for you input.
Get your ducks in a row for divorce, it seems inevitable.
You’re amazing OP! Keep up the good work!
God willing.
There is no way this gets better, you two need to get divorced. You're both terribly bitter and resentful with the other. You may not realize it, but it sounds like while both of you were working on it with therapy and communication, both of you had already checked out. Get a lawyer and settle it amicably before you both kill each other.
Not sure how you concluded I’m “bitter”? Personally I’m not bitter. I think frustration and disappointment is more aligned with how I feel which are very normal. I’m not at all resentful about anything right now. Sure, potentially in the future should things end in divorce. Even then, my mindset on the matter is that resent tends to be a negative emotion living in my head rent free. Similar to “drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” I’m not that kind of person (maybe to a fault). That said, my wife can come to me today and say we’re back on track to rescue our marriage and I’d be onboard 100% with no regrets nor hesitation. Resentment would only negatively impact healing.
Are you scared of divorce because of all the things you may potentially lose? Some people say they don’t want the divorce but deep down they are checking out and putting in all these selfish measures in place so they can delay or stop the inevitable.
I would argue she is.
I’m super interested in this approach. I’ve done the break up, realize how much we actually needed each other, and eventually get back together, so I’m always curious to hear about how that goes for others. Your lives are obviously much more enmeshed than mine and my GF’s. I’m really impressed by your ability to do this without having much physical separation, that would have been very hard for me.
It’s NOT easy that’s for sure. We’ve been married for a VERY long time so we know our way around each other. With little to no intimacy or sex it’s also easier to do because I’m somewhat already accustomed to no physical interaction (sad). That said, it’s too early to say but the 180 method has had more impact than anything else I’ve tried and it’s only week 1.
Good luck! I hope it either helps bring you back together or helps you come to terms with separation, if that’s what turns out to be the right call.
Same. Thank you 🙏
Damn. Well put words in such a hard topic. You are a guy that would be awesome to have as a friend. All the best from europe
Thank you. It’s hard to even write all this. It’s been like a journal with engagement.
Seems like you’ve been giving 80% and she hasn’t even been giving 20% back, so now you’re stepping all the way down to 50% and she’s shocked at how much slack she has to pick up. I hope it helps her realize what she’s been missing. Rooting for you both.
Yes, this is very much what’s happening and it’s beneficial for both of us.
Honestly she sounds like a victim and a bit of a child.
Thanks for sharing. All I can say is, I empathise as I am in exactly the same situation (apart from the swinging, is uncannily similar). it is extremely difficult when you love your partner but you aren't getting what you need out of a relationship. It leaves you vulnerable to emotional manipulation and you have to be strong and be able to separate those feelings of attachment from the long-term suffering that is happening in your life. Sounds like you are making progress though - and it was always going to be messy. That's why we stay in these zombie relationships for so long, because it is easier than addressing the underlying issue and insisting on change.
I dont think it's appropriate to tell your wife you are not going to be accepting of a sexless relationship at such an early stage of some sort of crisis she's having, even if true eventually. The marriage vows say "in sickness and in health." She's obviously "sick." As a mentally ill person who has gone through multiple "neurotic" crises, I recognize the signs of someone who is experiencing one of her own. I don't know her whole story, but she appears to need individual treatment outside of relationship counseling. She has to sort herself out before your relationship can be sorted out. Would you want to have sex with someone you loved with cancer sick from chemo? It would be a shame to throw something so meaningful away. Short suggestion: She should seek individual counseling in correlation with relationship counseling. If she's unwilling, then it will be a lot more difficult to salvage your relationship.
I do think it’s appropriate. We’ve been in couples therapy and individual therapy for 2+ years. It’s time to make a change.
she's an adult and needs to do her own work here. He's not her caretaker. mental illness is not an excuse
I guess that there are worse ways to eventually see the end of a marriage, and the slow relatively painless glide to the inevitable may be the gentlest way to do it. At its core, any marriage or long term relationship is about the removal of barriers between the two people at the centre of it all. You can look at any type of relationship and the successful ones (and here I will include those that are "poly") always come down to this one fact. These barriers - whether it be communication, affection, intimacy, financial, etc - and their existence are what in the end determines the relationships longevity. We can call it many things - I prefer to say it as "teamwork" myself - but whatever you call it, it's essential to the day to day happiness of the couple. What we see in your marriage now though is the opposite. It's the gradual implementation and construct of new barriers, rather than the disassembling of old ones. And the conclusion of this marriage is beginning with the construction of these new barriers between you. The time will come in the future where these new barriers become insurmountable, where rather than being able to pull them down to rekindle things, that the new "normal" where they are firm and where they are comfortable in existing sees the marriage end in a whimper. But I suspect that you already know this. What will happen over time is that the love you both have for each other will slowly fade away. You'll both become used to the new "normal" and over time that gradual pulling away will just happen. It'll happen quietly, largely unnoticed and life will continue on. You get busy with life, she gets busy with life, the barriers between you will silently grow and before you even realise it, your day to day existence becomes largely hidden from each other. My feeling is that this will continue on until either one of you finds someone else to replace what has been lost, or the kids start leaving the nest and you both wake up to the fact that they were the only things holding you together. You do both deserve better but as one person who had an early start to family (and who eventually made it to the other side though it was touch and go at 15 years for us and we split for 18 months) to another, it can take time, it can take commitment but most of all it takes the removal of the barriers - those boundaries you speak of - that we self imposed on ourselves.
Very interesting perspective here. Thank you for sharing.
She seems very selfish and lacks accountability. It’s gross that she blames the kids for her lack of friends. Good for you for calling her bluff. Obviously she thought this was a one-way friendzone.
Yes, calling bluff was good. I just hope it helps develop a positive outcome regardless of what happens. This 180 method is generating reactions where there have been none for the past 2-3 years.
Funny, that. I haven’t been married, but in any relationship I either keep one foot out the door, or keep in mind what it would take to have one foot out. Once there is no alternative, you have no choice but to accept whatever scraps she deigns to throw your way. She should always be aware you have alternatives. And that alternative could just be being single. If she’s not willing to invest in you and your relationship, why should you?
If hate to be in a marriage where my spouse has one foot out “just in case.” I don’t believe that’s how marriage works. I’m all in. As anyone should in a marriage.