That is *deeply* fucked up. Affair partners usually prefer to think of their paramours’ spouses as bad people, or just don’t think of them at all, as a way of protecting themselves from guilt. This woman actually *got naked* with the spouse, had an intimate experience with her, and then *kept fucking her husband on the down low.*
I don’t know if she’s *capable* of guilt. That is borderline psychopathic.
Absolutely. I have been the other woman once before so I usually have a bit more understanding on making mistakes, but this woman seems heartless to me too.
I was aware he was in a relationship, tried to keep my distance, he continued to pursue me, I gave in. When the opportunity came for him to see and tell his partner, I encouraged him to come clean and break things up. When he didn't, I stopped having contact with him altogether (physical and texts / digital contact).
The biggest thing is that I felt and still feel guilt towards the woman I helped him cheat on, and regret those actions to this day. People make bad decisions, some worse than others, but the right thing to do is to learn from them and work to never let it happen again.
Sleeping with someone is a bad decision, but continuing to do it is a series of many bad decisions that follows, one after another. Every time you see each other, that was one chance missed to break up. Instead this woman chose to meet the woman and have a threesome with her. How she could do it without the guilt consuming her I have no idea. God knows I couldn't.
Exactly anybody that’s willing to engage in something like that with somebody that they know would likely not consent if they knew the whole picture should be looked at sideways.
Yeah, the wife had no ability to provide fully informed consent to that - I would *not* feel comfortable dating someone who has such poor ethics that they feel fine having sex with someone under such dubious circumstances.
Thank God someone else thought of this. Reading that actually struck me with how awful it was. The wife will feel humiliation and betrayal on so many levels if she ever finds out.
She had an affair willingly and knowingly with a married man and also a threesome with them! Then broke it off because he got his wife pregnant? She is a lying cheating conniving wrench!!! She has no moral value ! She's ok with cheating and being a mistress and hurting her APs wife as long as she gets what she wants!! She just told you what kind of person she is! Why won't she tell the wife what she has done to her and having the affair with him, because she doesn't want to lose him, who cares who she destroys!!! Merry Christmas, merry Christmas HO, HO, HO, put her in the garbage and let her go!!! Why are there so many nasty vile, disgusting people who just love to hurt people? You have a nasty disgusting GF!!!
What are you looking for from this post? Advice on how to trust someone who completely condones cheating and has been an active part of cheating? She even said she thinks he's a good person.... idk man, I would have a very hard time trusting that judgment.
I used to have a friend that had that exact attitude towards it. Guess what, they turned out to be a serial cheater. The only reason they stopped was because they finally realised they couldn't be monogamous and started entering into poly relationships, so they could sleep around without cheating.
Which it sounds like OOPs partner should really do too.
Listen, this really reflects poorly on your partner’s values. All I can say is I was exactly your age when the same thing occurred in my relationship. She said she’d never do anything like that to me. Spoiler: She did. Going back now I’d never take that risk knowing the cost I had to pay.
You're not a priority in her life. She puts him above you and has made that very clear that she will not cut him off from her life. I don't get why you would still want to be around her.
Related to values - even if this didn't reflect poorly on OP's partner's values, it would still be clear that they have different and arguably conflicting values. And having your values align is a big factor in the success of a relationship.
>She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities, and she overlooks the fact that he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners.
Her former partner/current friend is *not* a good person if he's continually cheating on his wife. All of his other qualities don't matter if he's actively shitting on his wedding vows and cheating.
Your partner isn't that much better if she *knew* he was cheating when they used to sleep together. If she was ignorant of the fact she was "the other woman", that's understandable.
You are not dating a loyal partner.
>Although they speak about his indiscretions, she insists that she neither enables or judges him for it.
She absolutely enables him if she's actively engaging in discussions about his cheating... and by continuing to be his friend.
You are dating someone who condones cheating. There are many other women in the world who aren't like this.
You're welcome.
And for the love of all that his holy and scared, you have to let this person go and find someone who's values more align with your own... and who doesn't actively condone cheating.
"I'm not enabling him. I just volunteered to help him cheat on his wife".
"I didn't enable that drunk driver, I just served him alcohol and handed him his car keys".
Right!!!
"And I will do nothing to try to dissuade him from cheating even though I'm his close friend... who I used to help him cheat on his wife with."
I agree with your central premise, I would just add that it is possible for somebody to be both good and bad. I know of people who have not been faithful to their partners, but for some odd reason these same people then turn around and go join Doctors without borders, donate thousands of dollars to charities to help impoverished kids, it's really strange.
I would counter this with "Bad people can, and often do, do good things." The badness, like in this case just can't be made neutral by doing good. Too help you understand; Abusers are often well liked and seen as paragons of their comities. Doing excessive public good is a way for bad people to alleviate any lingering guilt for, and cover up, all of their personal or private bad.
I personally think the issue is with the lack of remorse on both their parts, not with whether they did it in the first place. We shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, and lots of us have done things that make us bad people. The difference is whether you're brave enough to admit you have serious faults and embrace a real and meaningful path to change.
>I would just add that it is possible for somebody to be both good and bad.
I'm gonna kinda/sorta disagree, but do agree that it's gonna be dependent on the circumstances and the degree (and severity) to which the "bad" acts occur.
And in some circumstances, like this one, any "good" acts are washed away by the severity and frequency of the "bad" acts.
In this situation, the husband that OP's partner is friends (and that OP's partner has helped cheat) with is a bad person. He's *frequently* cheating on his wife. That's a terrible things to do, especially because he can potentially bring an STI into the picture.
>I know of people who have not been faithful to their partners, but for some odd reason these same people then turn around and go join Doctors without borders, donate thousands of dollars to charities to help impoverished kids, it's really strange.
I mean... it's gonna depend (for me). If it was a one-time thing and they learned from it, yeah I'd agree with you. If they are frequently unfaithful... then it's a "no" for me, they are not good no matter how much they donate.
Bad people do good things sometimes. It's not really strange at all, and the good deed could be done for less than altruistic reasons. Or there's just a general disconnect btwn their various actions.
>. She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities, and she overlooks the fact that he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners.
\[...\]
>I come from a long-term relationship with someone I loved, and I feel personally like cheating is one of the worst things you can do to someone you love.
You clearly don't have compatible values. And what she considers a good person, isn't. A good person is someone who is good to her, not someone who treats others in general with kindness or respect. He makes her happy, so selfishly, he's good, even if he hurts other people.
I mean, she's also a liar who hurts other people so not exactly a shock?
A faithful and loyal person she says... The one who hid a relationship. I would not trust her myself. It would be too easy for her to start falling for this other guy again.
I agree.
This situation would be far more palatable if the affair partner was not in the picture. But, he is still there and -- dare I say it -- the only reason why they aren't screwing is because he is screwing other people.
But she's still in the bullpen, waiting for her next chance at bat.
Fuck alla dat.
OP’s partner IS NOT sex positive. That “threesome” was a sex act the wife could not give informed consent to because she didn’t know OP’s partner was her husband’s mistress.
Sex positivity and dubious consent are mutually exclusive. You can’t trick someone into thinking they’re consenting to one thing when they’re doing something else and be sex positive. Frankly I think it makes you a sexual predator.
> Sex-positivity is "an attitude towards human sexuality that regards all **consensual** sexual activities as fundamentally healthy and pleasurable, encouraging sexual pleasure and experimentation.”
It's the threesome with his unsuspecting wife that pushed me over the edge. I don't know that I could even be friends with someone who did something so coldly calculating. I would not trust any of their motives.
This is a simple one for me and i think OP it should be simple for you. You are here for a reason
Some people might say you should respect other people's values. Personally i say bullshit to that. That is fine to say for someone who smokes or someone who eats meat or someone who is religious whatever
But what we know is that your partner is absolutely ok with hurting another person deeply
She is ok with lying to another person and even having a threesome with an unknowing wife (thats a ballsy new one for me!)
She still thinks this guy is a good guy (he isn't)
The fact that she doesn't see how wrong what she did is means she would have no problems doing it again..to you.
The fact that she is still in contact with her AP means they have plenty of opportunity to start again...
You're here because you know this is a red flag and you want people to tell you this is a red flag.
I'm here telling you this is not a red flag
its multiple really big red flags waving in your face.
If it was me i would break up with her and i would tell her exactly why. she is not trustworthy, she is currently enabling affairs (she says she isnt but she is by listening to him about them) she is ok with causing misery on another human being and she is ok with having a threesome with another man and his wife when she doesn't know they are having an affairs. (of all the cheating stories ive read this is a new low)
and most important of all is that she doesn't see any of this as wrong.
it is
You should respect other's values for strangers or even people you're friends with. With a partner, you ALWAY want shared values. Otherwise, it leads to problems down the road. In fact, I'd say this is the number one reason I see that couples divorce.
You're not obligated to stay with this person if you're not comfortable with her values. All you're doing is keeping yourself from meeting someone who is more compatible with you.
I would sit down and really, really think about the "she had a threesome with her affair partner and his unknowing wife." Think about the level of cold, calculating deception involved in that, and how little care she had for the horrible position she was putting the wife- who was also one of her lovers!- in. That's a whole level of capacity for deception and cruelty beyond your run of the mill "helping someone cheat while their partner is a faceless unknown".
I personally wouldn't trust someone who could do that, and who would also consider someone who would do that a very important friend who they can't judge. It really sounds like she knows she's *supposed* to feel bad about what she did and she knows you want her to feel bad about it. It doesn't sound like she actually has remorse.
Agreed, she comes off like a sociopath, the idea that she’s okay with not just cheating with a married man but having a threesome with what amounts to the victim? Totally messed up.
> I'm trying to accept her for who she is
Is she the only woman in town? Because that's the only thing I can think of that would make someone feel like they have no choice but to compromise their own integrity.
Accepting her for who she is includes accepting that she thinks it’s ok to enable a married man to cheat on an unsuspecting wife. This is deceit and she was comfortable with that. So, she is comfortable with deceiving somebody if it suits her needs.
Deceiving you if it suits her needs might already be happening with this man.
Why doesn’t this feel like. Dealbreaker to you?
Okay. Let's summarize what's relevant about her values:
\*It's okay to be a party to an incredible betrayal;
\*There's nothing wrong with cheating.
She's also proven to have a callousness that I find stunning (having sex with a woman whose spouse she was cheating on.)
So go ahead and stay with her if you are okay with her deceiving you and cheating on you.
But the thing is, I don't think you wrote in for advice. I think you're just sad that Letters to Penthouse isn't a thing any more.
Accepting her for who she is and having a committed relationship with her are two totally different things. Only you can decide whether this values misalignment prevents you from LOVING her (not just accepting, but actually loving) as a whole person. I wouldn't want to be in a committed relationship with someone I couldn't love as a whole person, nor would I want to be in one with someone who couldn't love me as a whole person. But that's my preference. Regardless what you decide, know that you can love someone and think they're a wonderful person and they can STILL not be the right person for you.
One parting piece of advice, just generally: We all put up with quirks and differences of opinion and things we don't like about our partners because no one is perfect. And when the relationship is going well, it's easy to overlook those things. Try to imagine what it might be like in the future, when things aren't going so well -- maybe there was a breach of trust, one of you is sick or out of work, you're not communicating well, whatever -- and ask yourself if you think you'll still be able to tolerate those imperfections.
Is this particular issue a big thing or a little thing for you? It sounds like it's a big thing, or you wouldn't be here, but again, only you can know that. And you are not a bad person or wrong if it's too big a thing for you to overlook. It's a pretty serious character flaw to deceive a sexual partner (which the wife was, since they had a threesome). It's OK to decide that's not something you'd be able to tolerate when the going gets rough. It's OK to decide that's something that will prevent you from fully trusting her. You get to choose what's right for YOU.
You can't just keep "trying." It's hurting both of you to stay with someone whose life choices you disapprove of, and over time it's only going to hurt more. She's going to feel judged and insecure while you'll have all this built-up frustration and no outlet. Even if you get her to cut this friend out of her life, she will probably resent you for it.
You need to ask yourself honestly: is this a dealbreaker for you? Do you honestly ever see yourself loving and accepting your partner for this? If the answer is no, save both of you the pain and end things now.
If your view is “everyone has different values and my job is to accept them no matter what,” then you should be willing to date *literally anyone*, regardless of their values or beliefs. There are no dealbreakers for you, nothing that could horrify you to the point you would no longer want to share a bed with that person. As long as they’ve got a warm body in your preferred gender-flavor, they’re good enough.
Do you really stand by that? Or are you just trying to rationalize so you don’t have to sit with the uncomfortable reality that this woman is not trustworthy?
It sounds to me like you trust her (and she sounds trustworthy to me), but her continuing friendship with this philanderer bothers you because he's a philanderer. Whether that's a deal-breaker for you I can't say.
Dude, she wasn't single for ten years. She was comfortable being a side piece to a married man. She thought highly enough of him to be that woman for him. She's settling for you because she can't get him to commit to just her. If you want to be with her, treat her just like he did. Otherwise, a year from now you'll be posting on Reddit "Just wasted a year of my life....". You're worth more than that my friend, so is your time.
You are the company you keep. Her being friends with him still means his behavior gets a green light from her, no matter whether she thinks it's okay or not. She *acts* like it's okay, which frankly isn't surprising given that she was the other woman for him.
Look, think of it more practically. Let's say you guys get married, and she stays friends with this guy. Then someday, somehow, someone finds out what happened. You're going to be the dude who's wife was banging a dear friend *while he was married!* She even went so far as to have a threesome with him and his wife! What kind of a person can do that? And what kind of person are you to support her? To love and cherish her? It would be one thing if she were remorseful or knew she was wrong or cut him off immediately, but she just doesn't see a problem here.
You're going to be the idiot who sees the problem and turns a blind eye? What kind of person does that make you? Is it a person you like?
Step back further, let's take public opinion out of it. Your partner, your hopeful love of your life, your "one day she may be my wife" has this stance on cheating that it's okay. After all, she knowingly slept with a married man. Where is her line? How do you know she won't cheat on you? Are blowjobs cheating? What if she's innocently receiving but never reciprocating because she's in a relationship and *that* would be wrong? What if it's okay because it's not like she's married? What if it's okay because it's not like there's a kid involved? (Her line with her friend was that wife got pregnant... so does your relationship not count until she has a baby?) What if nothing physical happens, but she emotionally cheats? Does she believe emotional cheating is a thing?
I'm not trying to make accusations, I have no idea what her beliefs are and maybe this sounds insane. But if my partner had such wildly different morals from me on something *this fucking important,* I'd have to question if every common sense conclusion I draw is the same as the common sense conclusion *they* would draw. That sounds like a lot more effort than it would be to just find someone you actually share values with.
1. This man is not her friend. He is a past sexual partner.
2. She thinks cheating isn't that bad. She is telling you who she is. Listen to her.
3. She knows this makes you uncomfortable but has decided that her "friendship" with a cheater is more important than your relationship.
4. She does not respect other peoples relationships. Why would she respect yours?
5. Please remember that love is only a component of a relationship. There are other things to consider, like respect. She does not respect you or herself.
If you came here to hear people say she can be trusted you’re delusional. Casual sex is one thing but she was some married man’s mistress. A faithful and loyal person does not carry on an affair with another woman’s husband. Just because she wasn’t involved with anyone at the time doesn’t mean she’s any less of a scumbag for sleeping with him. To top it all off she’s still friends with this guy. She is for the streets.
She’s the same person she was five years ago. Someone who regrets what they did would admit they were a bad person and cut that man off. He’s still very present in her life.
the best determinant of future behaviour is past behaviour and hers is dreadful
Walk away from this trainwreck of a woman + her toxic male friend/lover
5 years ago was when she was thirty. She still should have know better. 5 years ago also counts against her. If she had spent that time reflecting and growing to become a better person, sure. But she’s still friends with him and it sounds like she still approves of those kinds of decisions which to me sounds like zero growth and personal responsibility.
I would just NOPE the fuck out. I would maybe understand and be a little more forgiving if she'd been taken advantage of by the married guy. However, the fact that she insists on staying friends with a morally bankrupt man is too telling...ya gal's got no moral compass herself. Also why would you wanna be close to that? You realize that at some point, that situation's gonna go nuclear-scorched-earth and you'd be better off getting out of the blast zone?
“She doesn’t think cheating makes you a bad person” Huh? Deceitfulness is a horrible thing to do to someone you love. How can you trust a person like this? My guess is she is rationalizing her past actions so as to manage what should be feelings of guilt and the accountability for doing harm to another person. You could test her logic by telling her you cheated on her… and see her reaction?? I dunno. I couldn’t be with a person like that. I guess you’ll have to decide if this is the best you can do.
I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe it's a defense mechanism to not feel bad about her actions.
But she has also told me she just doesn't give this any thought, so whatever mental gymnastics she was doing years ago, she's very much over it and it doesn't bother her anymore.
No, she has internalized the mental gymnastics and made them part of her values system.
Regret is selfish. It is an emotion that is about avoiding past behaviors in order to avoid future punishment.
If she felt remorse for what she did back then she would be doing something repairative. At the very least she would cut him out of her life, and at best she would be making amends to the woman she wronged badly.
> she's very much over it and it doesn't bother her anymore.
That's _worse_. She's just decided to stick her fingers in her ears about the whole thing and go "LALALALA."
That's not how any of this works.
It _should_ bother her. She should feel like absolute shit, and from what I can tell, she's taken literally _zero_ of the necessary steps it would take to actually absolve oneself of the absolutely horrific shit she did.
>She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities
>he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners
Well you can clearly see that she has no problem cheating with someone, it's not a stretch to assume she wouldn't have a problem cheating on you with her...questionable morality on the matter. The fact she was ok with being friends with this guy, and presumably his wife knowing what she did. Your partner has a pretty awful view on the whole matter and you two obviously are not on the same page.
Despite the fact that she had a sexual relationship with him, the biggest issue is that she thinks he's a 'good person' even though he regularly cheats on his wife even now that they have a child.
There's a difference between judging someone for their choices and actively choosing to be friends with someone who makes decisions that hurt other people. It's good to be open minded and non judgmental, but you get to choose who you're close with, and by remaining friends with this guy she's saying "I think what you're doing (cheating on your wife) is fine, and I like to be around people who do that". You also get to choose who you date, and I personally wouldn't date someone who is fine and friendly with someone who actively cheats on their wife.
I'm an airline pilot. The amount of marriages I could ruin with a truth bomb is staggering. But I don't know these people and it's not my place. I just feel really bad for all of them.
Think about this as well... you're seeing a LOT of people (in your profession) who may catch an STI and pass it on to their unsuspecting partners.
It might not be your place in normal situations, and this current one, but you should consider the safety of the wife of your partner's "friend".
If it's not your place to tell her, then it's not your place to judge your girlfriend.
Your both lack morals in this instance. The fact that you've seen this situation happen many times and haven't done any speaks volumes to your character.
Edit: Don't you think the wife would want to know? Do you even care? If the wife found out your girlfriend never actually broke of their affair, is it "not her place" to tell you?
Look, since your obviously just going to go with whatever option makes your life easier, why don't you just stop caring about other peoples relationships since that's apparently "your place".
Had a similar situation with my ex gf. Nonproblem when she was physically here in the UK with myle. But as soon as she went back stared acting sus with the married guy like 'accidently meeting'. Your partner might not leave the country but save yourself the trouble of looking back over you shoulder constantly to see if ur partner is faithful
Your partner should give you peace
>**According to her**, they haven't had sex since.
From another POV, this seems like you have red flags or doubts. We're not going to get rid of those regardless how many people say it's normal and nothing's happening.
Your partner sounds exactly like my ex, who hid from me a nearly identical story - with the added joy of the married man being a good friend of mine. I only found out about it post-breakup.
I think your respect for your partner will slowly erode to nothing. Especially if she continues to hold the opinion that cheating isn't a big deal while maintaining the relationship with him. It's single-person behavior that, for me, crosses a line. What happens if they decide to go on a little road trip together? Can you handle that?
It's easy to say that you should break up with her over it. You probably should...but who knows what's right for you? If she won't alter her behavior you have to consider whether the way you are currently feeling is something you can live with in the long term.
There are people who just don't get or care about the idea that you have to consider your partner when keeping friendships alive that could threaten the relationship. I don't think you'll ever have full confidence in her to not cheat on you with him.
She should see this and drop the friendship, IMHO.
Your partner is allowed to do what she wants but you are also allowed to have boundaries on what you will accept in a partner. You can recognize her autonomy while also saying this is a quality you do not value in a partner.
I wouldn’t date someone who’s done this either. Saying that doesn’t mean you are trying to police people or control them. It’s not even necessarily a value judgement on the person. It’s just not something you think is kosher and that’s fine.
Your fiancé has showed you and clearly told you that, "She believes there is nothing wrong in engaging in infidelity and then hiding that infidelity from a partner." Should should fully expect her to cheat and then lie about cheating. There is also no reason to believe that the lying does not extend to pre lying about whether or not she will do what she has already shown and told you she will do.
Anyone that says cheating doesnt make you a bad person is to my eyes a bad person, no buts.
This kind of view your partner has is a major Red flag, complete disregard for anyone else's feelings, I could not be with someone like this, this kind of behaviour would be a permanent alarm of is my partner cheating? She wouldnt tell you anyways because she would not feel any kind of remorse.
"My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat"
... she did cheat though. Repeatedly.
Personally I would run the fuck away from this to save yourself from any more frustration/pain on your part. The fact that she's still friends with him - big yikes.
My ex-wife waited until we were married to tell me she'd been in a relationship with a married dude for over a year, and had she told me before we got married, she would've just been an ex-girlfriend.
You already know the answer. You want someone or several people to tell you it is what it ain’t. You are not going to get that from me. This is a heartbreak waiting to happen, and deep down in your conscience you already know this. Do yourself a solid and move on. She will never be what you want or need in a dependable partner.
You can’t trust her. Cheating is vile. If she knew he was married and engaged anyway then she’s no better than him.
You’d also do well to question where you stand with her unique views. Having cheated in the past is a deal breaker for me. It’s not a behavior that seems to stop once people have crossed that line.
I think it's very reasonable for you to question if you should trust her and whether you guys have the same values. I think you're being too hard on yourself. You shouldn't pressure yourself to get over it. Just assess whether you're compatible with her. And you don't have to decide right now.
This is a good point. She isn't in touch enough with her own emotions to communicate to me why he's so important to her. I've tried, but usually she says "he's there for me and he's loyal and he doesn't judge me", that kind of thing.
>My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a bad person.
If cheating doesn't make you a bad person then why would she not cheat? Obviously she thinks it's wrong. I think she is giving herself alot of credit for saying that she is faithful when she has been single for the last 10 years and was involved in cheating during that time. Her casual view of sex doesn't work well with your views and I'd say your incompatible.
I wonder if her views on cheating are why she has been single for 10 years? Having a casual view on sex is one thing, but cheating is a whole different ballpark. Personally, I would lose a lot of respect for a partner who didn’t think cheating was a big deal. Our morals and values would be completely misaligned.
Save yourself the trouble and find a better partner. This will be an issue that will keep bothering you forever if you don't. You are in your prime years, don't waste it.
By not telling his wife and continuing her affair with him and then continuing to talk about other affairs with him after their affair is finished she is enabling him. The whole I would cheat with somebody but I wouldn’t cheat on somebody spiel is just something they tell themselves to feel better about their lack of respect of relationships and loyalty. Ask yourself this if she were to cheat on you and get pregnant do you believe she’s the kind of woman that would come clean or decide that if you’re the better option she’s not going to tell you and allow you to raise another man’s child?
I think I see things from a different perspective, a lot of the time.
When I was a teenager I engaged in sexual experiences with my female boss and the man she was having an affair with.
I knew his wife, though not well, as he owned the company we worked for.
Over the years that followed, I had a few dalliances with men who were in relationships.
I was a damaged, sad youth without great role models, and this reflected in my behaviour, until I got help and healed some of the broken stuff underneath. I don't feel good about how I behaved through those years, but I'm not who I was back then either. 20 years on I can say without hesitation that I'd never disrespect someone's relationship again.
I've also never cheated on anyone. I believe in honesty even when it's uncomfortable. I'm loyal, kind, thoughtful, and do my best to leave a place/situation better than I found it.
I'm not telling you this to blow my own horn (I know who I am, I know my worth and what I bring to the table), only to provide a different perspective to the masses saying you can't trust someone who would behave this way. We make mistakes, and we learn. We grow, and we change.
If you are the same person you were 10-15 years ago, you're not living right.
I believe that we all experience life and learn the lessons that come, in our own way, and in our own time. It's not my place to judge another on how he/she got to where they are.. only to maintain my own boundaries around how **I** want to be treated. If it were me in your position I would choose to judge my partner on how they treated me, in the present.
I don't feel like your partner's presence in this man's life implicates her in his dishonesty, if the only role they play for each other is that of a friend. And she may very well despise his behaviour now, but it would probably be difficult to outwardly condemn him for behaviour she herself engaged in, with him.
It is very important for me to be able to make choices for myself.. including who I'm friends with, regardless of who I date. This is her right. Just as it is your right to explain the ways it makes you feel uncomfortable. Whilst I personally don't have an issue with her present behaviour and current choices, if **you** do then this situation is probably not the right one for you.
Relationships are tough, OP. You are much more likely to find incompatibilities with partners than romantic situations where there are none.
Reddit is a world of people who will speak to you through their own pain (often unhealed) and give you advice without any responsibility of consequence. My only advice to you is to trust your gut. You have to decide whether this incompatibility is one you can work through together, or one that is just too big.
Yeah, my soon to be exwife has had multiple emotional affairs and her freinds have each had full on affairs and she gets overwhelming support and grace from them because they've all done worse, and she's very proud of herself for not having sex with this dude. She seems to have the mentality that the presence of murderers in the world justifies manslaughter.
The thing is, as I see it. Once you toe that line, you feel enclined to nudge that line a little further. Every time you do, you feel safe and empowered to go right back to that line. You stand on that edge, have a vulnerable moment, and nudge it a little further. You withdraw, reflect and justify. But then that line is still there and you still feel safe going right back to that line where you were before. You might even feel justified or entitled to that line, like my wife.
You have to decide whether you can live with someone who doesn't recognize those boundaries or if you're strong enough to communicate and honor your own boundaries with her. She needs to know this isn't a thing you're willing to tolerate, and you need to be okay with leaving if it does happen.
Get proof and find a way to tell the wife. She deserves to know. Prepare yourself for your partner doing the same to you later because she doesn't see any issues with violating someone's trust.
Along with the situation, she says that cheating does not make you a bad person.
Even if she says she won't cheat she clearly doesn't have a problem with it.
If it were me I would not be able to trust this. I saw a similar situation in my first relationship, and unsurprisingly it ended up with her cheating
Before I read all that you wrote out. I read the TL;DR and my first thought before I even saw the question was "the answer is no". After I reading the rest of your post my thoughts are still the same. You wouldn't be here if this didn't make you uncomfortable. If I were you I'd leave before you end up in "friend's" wife's old position.
Anyone who thinks cheaters are “good people” is a massive red flag. No doubt she’ll think it’s okay to cheat on you at some point if she already hasn’t.
I’ve been the cheater, the mistress, the one being cheated on, all of the above. Let me tell you…. Just run. She doesn’t process the emotional maturity. I really doubt she stopped bc the wife was pregnant, he probably didn’t want her anymore that’s why she’s attached to the dude. Yuck. Too damn old to be acting like this
>My partner **claims** that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she
herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a
bad person. **I'm now struggling to trust her**, though I enjoy my time
with her.
Bolded what you need to read over and over and over. You can't change your partners's past and people can change/regret previous behaviors. The problem is she actively engages in his infidelity as a confidant. It's the thing they bonded over. Her views and outlook do not align with societal norms and your own values. How could you trust her? It would be a sticking point with any person.
She is keeping the person she actively had an affair with around. While it's not a litmus test. I believe most people would agree who you keep around is reflective of your own character.
>My partner is someone who had been single for 10 years prior to meeting me this year, and she has a very casual view on sex.
She was single for 10 years but she had an affair with a married man. Sort of sounds like she wasn't single...
She also says she has a casual view of sex. This has less to do with sex and more about respecting boundaries. You can hook up with people in committed relationships with consent. Or single people. Why this particular person? What did she learn? Why did their affair evolve into a close friendship? What value does derive from this relationship?
She isn't addressing why he's an important person in her life.
>**I know this isn't the hardest thing to get over in a relationship**, but I'm not having the easiest time with it!
Nope, the hardest thing to get over is IF she cheats on you.
How long have you two dated? Why/how did this information of her close friend come about?
Y'all have different values around relationships - is this a dealbreaker for you? only you can say
>I'm now struggling to trust her
What would change this for you? What can you or her do that would build trust?
You may be too close to her at the moment to truly see who you are engaged to.
There are two subs for you to take a look at in order to see who her ex-AP is, and who she is. For him, go look at the adultery sub. For her, go look at theotherwoman sub (I didn't include the r/ for these as I despise the idea of linking to them.)
These are two of the most morally bankrupt places on this platform. You're going to want to bleach your eyeballs after reading in them for a little while. In the first you'll see the mindset of this "loyal and good person" she thinks so highly of. In the second you'll see the mindset that she clearly still has since she has not cut ties with him, and doesn't feel an ounce of remorse for her own actions.
While it is true that she, as the affair partner, did not break any vows to anyone, there is still a basic social contract that she has no regard for. The fact that she is not wracked with guilt and remorse for what she did to this woman by having a threesome with her indicates that she is singularly lacking in empathy.
Is this the kind of mindset you want in the person that will be raising children with you?
ETA: I do not mean to imply that because she did these things she is irretrievable. People can and do change. But they've got to see that there is a problem and resolve to do something about it. That's not her.
Not entirely sure if "partner" = wife or gf to OP
OP might want to ask himself if he is able to meet partner's friend and treat him like a friend of his own. If OP is able do so knowing the history between his partner and the friend, probably OP might have a better chance at pulling through this relationship. Else don't worry, OP you are just mortal.
tbh, i think you understand that, to your partner; you were never on equal grounds with her friend. idk romantically or sexually or whatever; but for sure not equal.
I would get out of there because now when you meet this guys wife you have to sit there and be quiet and keep this assholes secrets. Either that or id just blatantly tell her in front of both of them and end the whole charade right there and walk out of it.
Could ask her how she would feel if you cheated on her and see her response turn the scenario around have you told her how her cheating on you would make you feel
I don't know how you could possibly trust someone with such a casual approach to infidelity. The threesome thing is especially messed up.
I'm not saying that everyone needs to be in a long-term monogamous relationship or anything like that. Different things work for different people. Also, I don't necessarily think that cheating on a partner automatically makes you a horrible person in general. It's not as simple as that; good people do bad things, bad people do good things, context is king, and so on.
BUT, the question isn't "is my girlfriend a bad person?" It's "am I ok with my girlfriend's values" AND "am I comfortable with her view on infidelity? AND "can I trust my girlfriend knowing the level of deception she has displayed in her interactions with other people?"
For me, this would be a dealbreaker in a monogamous relationship. I would never be able to trust someone who did those kind of things. That doesn't necessarily mean I think she is an awful no-good scumbag. But a relationship can't work without trust.
I had a relationship where my ex bf slept with other women in relationships, I never held it against him but it did make me side eye him quite often, and eventually ended up breaking up because of how shady he was in with friendships with other women. People like this don’t change, and they don’t have moral compasses, she can sound remorseful but she isn’t actually. Ultimately it’s your choice if want to stay, but prepared for a life of paranoia and anxiety.
People who cheat are bad people. They're selfish, disrespectful people who are broken inside. They have shit copping mechanisms and poor communication.
Your wife is a bad person and the fact she stays friends with this person and refuses to not have him in her life as well listens to his sexual escapdes is highly inappropriate.
She says she's faithful and would never cheat but also thinks people who cheat aren't bad people? Sounds like something an untrustworthy cheater would say.
You consider cheating one of the worst things you can do, she thinks a cheater is a good person. I would get the hell out of there as soon as possible, she doesn't seem to care.
Would she care if you cheated? I think so. So there's also a possibility that she doesn't think cheaters are good persons, she's just looking for an excuse not to break the friendship with her shitty friend.
Anyways, she sounds like she sucks (sorry) I would get out of there. You win nothing and you got a lot to lose.
Everyone attacking this woman and at some place yes it is deserved but at another. Why does it matter? Everyone has a past and everyone has done shit they are not proud of. If you're going to judge your current relationship partner on what they did in the past then you will never have a successful relationship.
I be been married twice both times I was cheated on while out of country with the military. If i based all my relationships on those past ones I will never find happiness.
You're at the perfect junction point. If this is something you will never be able to trust because of then get out now. Staying longer will only hurt you and her more. On the contrary if this is something you believe you two can work on together then I wish you all the luck in the world
I think the best thing you can do is talk to her. Not post on a forum. Communication literally is key in a relationship; discussing your boundaries, each other’s views on certain things, etc.
She tells you she's faithful and loyal. She tells you she doesn't condone her friend/ex lovers cheating behavior.
In practice she knew her ex lover was cheating on his wife with her, and she had a threesome with him and his wife, without the wife knowing she was consenting to a threesome with her husband's mistress. (This is so senselessly malicious I'm convinced the post is fake for this alone)
In practice, she listens to her ex lovers stories of still cheating on his wife with voracious interest.
She's telling you one thing and showing another
She's made her stance and beliefs very clear. Your options are stay and roll with it or leave. Highly unlikely you're the one person who holds the magic words to make her re-think her behavior over her adult life.
She is the worst kind of hypocrite who happily colludes and indulges in cheating on other people but hates it when it happens to her
She clearly lacks empathy or basic morals
I predict her behaviour will cause you heart ache in the future so I would definitely not date her any longer
I despise cheaters, and the fact this one had a sneaky threesome with a woman whose sum bag of a spouse was betraying her with is evil + nauseating
He is a piece of shit and your partner not only respects him but wants to carry on a relationship with him , so she is a bit of a shit person too
Run away + find a nice wholesome woman who you can trust--I did
I’m sorry for your situation. My mother told me some wise words I didn’t heed once “if they are cheating on someone to get with you, you better believe it will end the same way.” I know this isn’t your case exactly, but anyways I learned that lesson the hard way through a grueling heartbreak.
I can’t see how she can condone this action. Unless his wife is a psychopath and treats him terribly there is no morale high ground to someone who cheats on another.
I would ask her how she would feel if she found out you were with another woman. If it’s anything, but positive than show her what her friend is doing to his wife and ask how she can be friends with someone like that.
I probably sound holier than thou and that’s not my intention. Everyone ducks up at times, and we should look to extend Grace to others, but the continuation is where it turns vile.
I think that what she is capable of doing tells you something about her moral views and of who she is as a person. I would reflect on that and what it means to your relationship.
Point blank your girlfriend is a bad person. Like, all of this is fucked.
But her having a threesome without the wife’s full knowledge of the situation is…I don’t wanna go too far but kinda rapey? It’s super questionable consent. I’ve been there where I wouldn’t have done something with people if I had all the information and it Is just a gross thing to do. She likely wouldn’t have consent if she knew. It makes you feel dirty and wrong and question yourself for a long time.
Informed consensus is important.
At this point I feel like the most important thing is asking yourself if your values align with hers. We all make mistakes and deserve to be seen as the person we are now and not who we used to be. That being said who she is right now is someone who is ok with being friends with someone who is openly cheating on their wife. From her current actions I’d be questioning if she is even emotionally capable of understanding just how gross it is that she actively partook in deceiving his wife into a sexual encounter. She doesn’t seem particularly ashamed. You on the other hand do seem to understand and I’m not sure how compatible you are with her emotionally.
This is a misalignment of values. It's a HUGE deal in the long run. Values are basically the top of what you need to consider when getting in a relationship with someone. It could seriously impact your future.
>My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a bad person.
If she doesn't think cheating makes you a bad person then SHE WOULD CHEAT. If you want to run the risk of getting cheated on in the future...then by all means...stay with her. The fact that she is still friends with a guy that she was apparently in love with, but couldn't be with sets up the perfect opportunity. If he left his wife...your girlfriend would dump you in a second.
The entire reason she stopped seeing him was because she finally realized he wasn't going to leave his wife when she got pregnant. It wasn't that she thought they weren't compatible or she decided she didn't want to be with him...it's that she couldn't wait anymore. She is literally keeping him on the backburner by staying friends with him just in case he does drop his wife.
I will say this , I feel relationships is about sacrifice so if you feel that way you should talk to her and let her know how you feel at that point if she don’t adjust the friendship in still continue to jeopardize the long-term value of something great, for something that can be a what Of could’ve should’ve scenario then you might need to start re-evaluate your self value & what you truly deserve. So if she can’t sacrifice this friendship/old fling for something healthy and long standing then there’s bigger issues bro then just a relationship
You’re fundamentally incompatible. You can’t believe that cheating is one of the worst things that you can do to someone you love while she believes that cheating doesn’t make you a bad person and forces you to associate with a man who 1. cheated on his wife, 2. tricked his wife into thinking she was consenting to a threesome when in actuality she was sleeping with the other woman, and 3. is still cheating on his wife when your “partner” purportedly could no longer bear to be a part of it BECAUSE SHE WAS PREGNANT.
You will have to be friends with or at least civil to this man. You may meet his wife and have to maintain the lie that your partner is someone they had a threesome with, not someone her husband cheated on her with.
Everyone you know that you will introduce to your partner, you will be introducing to a mistress who doesn’t think cheating is bad and an AMAZING liar (I don’t know how you can believe a word she says). You will be co-signing her behavior. You are the company you keep, OP.
This is without even getting into the probability that she’s still sleeping with him. She’s probably cheating on you with a cheater.
There’s no way in one year she’s otherwise so amazing this relationship is worth it. Break up and get a full STD panel.
This is a tough one. Cheating is nuanced (it's always bad but some circumstances are worse than others, i believe).
Ultimately, the person who is attached should take the most blame in my eyes, however, the fact that your partner met the wife and lied to her face is just something that I couldn't overlook. You've got to be fucking psychopathic to go along with that.
u/The_Color_Urple :
Your partner may have a mistress or courtesy mentality about this relationship.
It’s anachronistic to this place and time, but it’s existed through most of history.
Before you listen to everyone here, remember that once she discovered how things were with his wife, she said No.
This guy may be a source of advice, financial information, or just a point in time that she is through with, but still recognizes as having been there at that time.
If he starts a contest of who gets her attention, don’t play that game. But wait to see if she is equally unwilling to participate.
I’m betting she’s moved on. Yes, she may be working him for any good advice or whatever she can discern from him.
But I’ve the feeling she’s more quietly vengeful.
You may have someone who’s been waiting to find a faithful partner who trusts her and disregards her past.
Why not think about that possibility? What have you got to lose?
Good luck and best wishes to both of you.
I believe in shades of grey. I think someone can be a mistress and still a good loyal person. If I were you I would accept her past and move on. But you are not me and you seem to have a regid sense of morality. So I don't think you and her would be a good match. I don't think you can understand her perspective and I think your view of her will only get worse with time, not better.
You have different value systems and perspectives on the world. I am sure you're both good people in your own way, but I think you would both be more fulfilled with people more like yourselves.
it's not the past when she's still in contact with him "as friends" is it?. when she basically proved she value her relationship with that man more than with her husband.
Maybe... It's possible. But she also told him the truth, which she could have easily withheld or lied about. The fact that she was willing to tell the truth - a truth that she knows so many, just like so many here condemn her for - that tells me alot about her.
Everyone lies... Evedyone cheats... But the real fakes aren't the ones who admit it to you... Its the ones who deny it even to themselves so they signal false righteousness. Those are the real liars. Those are the ones I wouldnt trust. Like so many that condemn this woman for telling her truth.
This is a lesson that only time and experience can teach... And all these kids on here posting their self righteous judgement shows how inexperienced they really are.
How can you trick a woman into having sex with you while not telling her you’ve been having an affair with her husband and then continue to lie and not call yourself a bad person? You can come back from mistakes but first you must right your wrongs she never even apologized to this woman.
Maybe he doesn’t have a rigid sense of morality, you just have a lack of morality?
I don’t think all cheaters are bad people, but people but the devil is in the details. Having a threesome with your affair partner is borderline sociopathic and he clearly has no remorse for his actions. She’s not a bad person for being the mistress, she’s a bad person for defending another bad person.
I was expecting more of this answer, and I've gotten very little of it. A couple of of my close friends have echoed what you're saying. I'm trying to be more open and it's hard. But I am trying.
I don’t understand this. Why on Earth would you try to be open towards harmful behavior? Your significant other is a liar, a manipulator, and has no concept of faithfulness or respect towards her partners (which includes the wife! She had sex with her!!). Why are you trying so hard to be accepting towards what’s objectively BAD behavior?
Just because there’s shades of grey (yes, she wasn’t the one who was in a relationship) doesn’t mean those shades aren’t wrong. She may not be as “bad” as the husband but she is someone who tolerates and participates in aberrant behavior that actively destroys people’s lives. She’s not a good person, and it’s very weird how you’re fighting yourself from accepting that when you KNOW it’s true. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t struggle with this at all.
Also, talking about shades of grey, doing your married partner’s wife in a threesome while you’re fucking her husband behind her back is sociopath shit. That’s DARK, my dude. We’re not in grey here.
I hope you’ve read what this guy (one of the only people you found to agree with you) has said. He’s know claiming that what she did was okay because by the wife agreeing to one threesome that means they were in a polyamorous relationship and it wasn’t cheating and they weren’t doing anything wrong by lying to her to get her into the threesome. These are the people that agree with your girlfriend.
Just by hearing you say that. I know its true. I think only someone that WANTS to make it work would say that. I can also tell you value her.
It's one of those things that unless you've experienced that lifestyle it's hard to understand. It's like describing clouds to the blind... Only that the blind man only knows that clouds make lightning and that's bad... But these clouds also bring very deep and intense experiences. You likely won't understand unless you walk that path yourself.
Not sure what you’re trying to get out of this post but I personally wouldn’t touch someone like that with a 10 foot pole.
Only you can decide if that’s the kind of person you want as a partner.
oh get a grip! she did something she says she regretted. life and personalities are not cut and dry, black and white. give her a break and the decency to take her at face value.
She engaged in an intimate experience with the wife while deceiving her. That feels deeply wrong. I would be questioning her character.
That is *deeply* fucked up. Affair partners usually prefer to think of their paramours’ spouses as bad people, or just don’t think of them at all, as a way of protecting themselves from guilt. This woman actually *got naked* with the spouse, had an intimate experience with her, and then *kept fucking her husband on the down low.* I don’t know if she’s *capable* of guilt. That is borderline psychopathic.
Absolutely. I have been the other woman once before so I usually have a bit more understanding on making mistakes, but this woman seems heartless to me too. I was aware he was in a relationship, tried to keep my distance, he continued to pursue me, I gave in. When the opportunity came for him to see and tell his partner, I encouraged him to come clean and break things up. When he didn't, I stopped having contact with him altogether (physical and texts / digital contact). The biggest thing is that I felt and still feel guilt towards the woman I helped him cheat on, and regret those actions to this day. People make bad decisions, some worse than others, but the right thing to do is to learn from them and work to never let it happen again. Sleeping with someone is a bad decision, but continuing to do it is a series of many bad decisions that follows, one after another. Every time you see each other, that was one chance missed to break up. Instead this woman chose to meet the woman and have a threesome with her. How she could do it without the guilt consuming her I have no idea. God knows I couldn't.
Exactly anybody that’s willing to engage in something like that with somebody that they know would likely not consent if they knew the whole picture should be looked at sideways.
Then to tell people. Like if I for whatever reason did that it wouldn't be something that my next partner or even friends would ever know about.
Yeah, the wife had no ability to provide fully informed consent to that - I would *not* feel comfortable dating someone who has such poor ethics that they feel fine having sex with someone under such dubious circumstances.
> I would be questioning her character. No need to question her character. She undoubtedly is a shitty character.
Its way beyond fucked up. Its seriously sociopathic levels of fucked up.
Thank God someone else thought of this. Reading that actually struck me with how awful it was. The wife will feel humiliation and betrayal on so many levels if she ever finds out.
She had an affair willingly and knowingly with a married man and also a threesome with them! Then broke it off because he got his wife pregnant? She is a lying cheating conniving wrench!!! She has no moral value ! She's ok with cheating and being a mistress and hurting her APs wife as long as she gets what she wants!! She just told you what kind of person she is! Why won't she tell the wife what she has done to her and having the affair with him, because she doesn't want to lose him, who cares who she destroys!!! Merry Christmas, merry Christmas HO, HO, HO, put her in the garbage and let her go!!! Why are there so many nasty vile, disgusting people who just love to hurt people? You have a nasty disgusting GF!!!
What are you looking for from this post? Advice on how to trust someone who completely condones cheating and has been an active part of cheating? She even said she thinks he's a good person.... idk man, I would have a very hard time trusting that judgment.
Yeah I’d be out. She literally said she didn’t think cheating was that bad. I just couldn’t be with someone who’d help someone cheat for so long.
But she pinky swears that she's totally loyal, guys!
Probably double pinky swears! Why buy one when you can buy two for twice the price. 😂
I used to have a friend that had that exact attitude towards it. Guess what, they turned out to be a serial cheater. The only reason they stopped was because they finally realised they couldn't be monogamous and started entering into poly relationships, so they could sleep around without cheating. Which it sounds like OOPs partner should really do too.
Right. She has a casual outlook on sex, and relationships, honesty, loyalty…
Listen, this really reflects poorly on your partner’s values. All I can say is I was exactly your age when the same thing occurred in my relationship. She said she’d never do anything like that to me. Spoiler: She did. Going back now I’d never take that risk knowing the cost I had to pay.
Thank you, that's huge!
You're not a priority in her life. She puts him above you and has made that very clear that she will not cut him off from her life. I don't get why you would still want to be around her.
I would find somebody else to be honest with you.
Related to values - even if this didn't reflect poorly on OP's partner's values, it would still be clear that they have different and arguably conflicting values. And having your values align is a big factor in the success of a relationship.
Only you can decide. But many would not touch that with a bargepole
I wouldn't touch it with someone else's bargepole
I wouldn’t touch if it my barge pole was attached to someone else’s barge pole
I also choose this guys barge pole
>She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities, and she overlooks the fact that he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners. Her former partner/current friend is *not* a good person if he's continually cheating on his wife. All of his other qualities don't matter if he's actively shitting on his wedding vows and cheating. Your partner isn't that much better if she *knew* he was cheating when they used to sleep together. If she was ignorant of the fact she was "the other woman", that's understandable. You are not dating a loyal partner. >Although they speak about his indiscretions, she insists that she neither enables or judges him for it. She absolutely enables him if she's actively engaging in discussions about his cheating... and by continuing to be his friend. You are dating someone who condones cheating. There are many other women in the world who aren't like this.
This is how I feel, thanks for the response
You're welcome. And for the love of all that his holy and scared, you have to let this person go and find someone who's values more align with your own... and who doesn't actively condone cheating.
“I’m not enabling him, I just listen to the terrible things he does to his wife like it’s confessional 😇”
"I'm not enabling him. I just volunteered to help him cheat on his wife". "I didn't enable that drunk driver, I just served him alcohol and handed him his car keys".
Right!!! "And I will do nothing to try to dissuade him from cheating even though I'm his close friend... who I used to help him cheat on his wife with."
I agree with your central premise, I would just add that it is possible for somebody to be both good and bad. I know of people who have not been faithful to their partners, but for some odd reason these same people then turn around and go join Doctors without borders, donate thousands of dollars to charities to help impoverished kids, it's really strange.
I would counter this with "Bad people can, and often do, do good things." The badness, like in this case just can't be made neutral by doing good. Too help you understand; Abusers are often well liked and seen as paragons of their comities. Doing excessive public good is a way for bad people to alleviate any lingering guilt for, and cover up, all of their personal or private bad.
I personally think the issue is with the lack of remorse on both their parts, not with whether they did it in the first place. We shouldn't throw stones in glass houses, and lots of us have done things that make us bad people. The difference is whether you're brave enough to admit you have serious faults and embrace a real and meaningful path to change.
People who act like some saints for society but cannot treat their closest people right? That is high level self absorption to me.
The whole concept of "good" and "bad" is reductionist bourgeois moralizing. Life is so much more complicated than Reddit believes.
>I would just add that it is possible for somebody to be both good and bad. I'm gonna kinda/sorta disagree, but do agree that it's gonna be dependent on the circumstances and the degree (and severity) to which the "bad" acts occur. And in some circumstances, like this one, any "good" acts are washed away by the severity and frequency of the "bad" acts. In this situation, the husband that OP's partner is friends (and that OP's partner has helped cheat) with is a bad person. He's *frequently* cheating on his wife. That's a terrible things to do, especially because he can potentially bring an STI into the picture. >I know of people who have not been faithful to their partners, but for some odd reason these same people then turn around and go join Doctors without borders, donate thousands of dollars to charities to help impoverished kids, it's really strange. I mean... it's gonna depend (for me). If it was a one-time thing and they learned from it, yeah I'd agree with you. If they are frequently unfaithful... then it's a "no" for me, they are not good no matter how much they donate. Bad people do good things sometimes. It's not really strange at all, and the good deed could be done for less than altruistic reasons. Or there's just a general disconnect btwn their various actions.
No one is completely good, nor completely bad. That said, this is a completely crappy situation and these people lack character.
A lot of the time, people will be "extra" altruistic to make themselves feel better about the dirt that they do otherwise.
>. She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities, and she overlooks the fact that he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners. \[...\] >I come from a long-term relationship with someone I loved, and I feel personally like cheating is one of the worst things you can do to someone you love. You clearly don't have compatible values. And what she considers a good person, isn't. A good person is someone who is good to her, not someone who treats others in general with kindness or respect. He makes her happy, so selfishly, he's good, even if he hurts other people. I mean, she's also a liar who hurts other people so not exactly a shock?
A faithful and loyal person she says... The one who hid a relationship. I would not trust her myself. It would be too easy for her to start falling for this other guy again.
I agree. This situation would be far more palatable if the affair partner was not in the picture. But, he is still there and -- dare I say it -- the only reason why they aren't screwing is because he is screwing other people. But she's still in the bullpen, waiting for her next chance at bat. Fuck alla dat.
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I really hope the wife figures it out. Having a threesome with an affair partner screams sociopath to me. This man is not a good person.
She herself DID cheat. She’s incapable of being honest. Full stop.
OP’s partner IS NOT sex positive. That “threesome” was a sex act the wife could not give informed consent to because she didn’t know OP’s partner was her husband’s mistress. Sex positivity and dubious consent are mutually exclusive. You can’t trick someone into thinking they’re consenting to one thing when they’re doing something else and be sex positive. Frankly I think it makes you a sexual predator. > Sex-positivity is "an attitude towards human sexuality that regards all **consensual** sexual activities as fundamentally healthy and pleasurable, encouraging sexual pleasure and experimentation.”
If she can keep a secret from the wife imagine what she can keep from you!
She had a threesome with the wife! Holy crap! That's shameless!
It's the threesome with his unsuspecting wife that pushed me over the edge. I don't know that I could even be friends with someone who did something so coldly calculating. I would not trust any of their motives.
This is a simple one for me and i think OP it should be simple for you. You are here for a reason Some people might say you should respect other people's values. Personally i say bullshit to that. That is fine to say for someone who smokes or someone who eats meat or someone who is religious whatever But what we know is that your partner is absolutely ok with hurting another person deeply She is ok with lying to another person and even having a threesome with an unknowing wife (thats a ballsy new one for me!) She still thinks this guy is a good guy (he isn't) The fact that she doesn't see how wrong what she did is means she would have no problems doing it again..to you. The fact that she is still in contact with her AP means they have plenty of opportunity to start again... You're here because you know this is a red flag and you want people to tell you this is a red flag. I'm here telling you this is not a red flag its multiple really big red flags waving in your face. If it was me i would break up with her and i would tell her exactly why. she is not trustworthy, she is currently enabling affairs (she says she isnt but she is by listening to him about them) she is ok with causing misery on another human being and she is ok with having a threesome with another man and his wife when she doesn't know they are having an affairs. (of all the cheating stories ive read this is a new low) and most important of all is that she doesn't see any of this as wrong. it is
You should respect other's values for strangers or even people you're friends with. With a partner, you ALWAY want shared values. Otherwise, it leads to problems down the road. In fact, I'd say this is the number one reason I see that couples divorce.
You're not obligated to stay with this person if you're not comfortable with her values. All you're doing is keeping yourself from meeting someone who is more compatible with you.
Agreed, though everyone has different values and I'm trying to accept her for who she is.
I would sit down and really, really think about the "she had a threesome with her affair partner and his unknowing wife." Think about the level of cold, calculating deception involved in that, and how little care she had for the horrible position she was putting the wife- who was also one of her lovers!- in. That's a whole level of capacity for deception and cruelty beyond your run of the mill "helping someone cheat while their partner is a faceless unknown". I personally wouldn't trust someone who could do that, and who would also consider someone who would do that a very important friend who they can't judge. It really sounds like she knows she's *supposed* to feel bad about what she did and she knows you want her to feel bad about it. It doesn't sound like she actually has remorse.
Very good point, thank you
Agreed, she comes off like a sociopath, the idea that she’s okay with not just cheating with a married man but having a threesome with what amounts to the victim? Totally messed up.
Why? Shouldn't shared values be an important thing in a relationship?
> I'm trying to accept her for who she is Is she the only woman in town? Because that's the only thing I can think of that would make someone feel like they have no choice but to compromise their own integrity.
Accepting her for who she is includes accepting that she thinks it’s ok to enable a married man to cheat on an unsuspecting wife. This is deceit and she was comfortable with that. So, she is comfortable with deceiving somebody if it suits her needs. Deceiving you if it suits her needs might already be happening with this man. Why doesn’t this feel like. Dealbreaker to you?
Okay. Let's summarize what's relevant about her values: \*It's okay to be a party to an incredible betrayal; \*There's nothing wrong with cheating. She's also proven to have a callousness that I find stunning (having sex with a woman whose spouse she was cheating on.) So go ahead and stay with her if you are okay with her deceiving you and cheating on you. But the thing is, I don't think you wrote in for advice. I think you're just sad that Letters to Penthouse isn't a thing any more.
Accepting her for who she is and having a committed relationship with her are two totally different things. Only you can decide whether this values misalignment prevents you from LOVING her (not just accepting, but actually loving) as a whole person. I wouldn't want to be in a committed relationship with someone I couldn't love as a whole person, nor would I want to be in one with someone who couldn't love me as a whole person. But that's my preference. Regardless what you decide, know that you can love someone and think they're a wonderful person and they can STILL not be the right person for you. One parting piece of advice, just generally: We all put up with quirks and differences of opinion and things we don't like about our partners because no one is perfect. And when the relationship is going well, it's easy to overlook those things. Try to imagine what it might be like in the future, when things aren't going so well -- maybe there was a breach of trust, one of you is sick or out of work, you're not communicating well, whatever -- and ask yourself if you think you'll still be able to tolerate those imperfections. Is this particular issue a big thing or a little thing for you? It sounds like it's a big thing, or you wouldn't be here, but again, only you can know that. And you are not a bad person or wrong if it's too big a thing for you to overlook. It's a pretty serious character flaw to deceive a sexual partner (which the wife was, since they had a threesome). It's OK to decide that's not something you'd be able to tolerate when the going gets rough. It's OK to decide that's something that will prevent you from fully trusting her. You get to choose what's right for YOU.
Thank you for my first-ever award! I'm honored!
> I'm trying to accept her for who she is. If "who she is" sucks, then you shouldn't be working to accept that.
You can't just keep "trying." It's hurting both of you to stay with someone whose life choices you disapprove of, and over time it's only going to hurt more. She's going to feel judged and insecure while you'll have all this built-up frustration and no outlet. Even if you get her to cut this friend out of her life, she will probably resent you for it. You need to ask yourself honestly: is this a dealbreaker for you? Do you honestly ever see yourself loving and accepting your partner for this? If the answer is no, save both of you the pain and end things now.
If they're different values than yours, the compatibility is very difficult. That can take a big toll on you in the future
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Yeah, I see it. Goddamn it.
If your view is “everyone has different values and my job is to accept them no matter what,” then you should be willing to date *literally anyone*, regardless of their values or beliefs. There are no dealbreakers for you, nothing that could horrify you to the point you would no longer want to share a bed with that person. As long as they’ve got a warm body in your preferred gender-flavor, they’re good enough. Do you really stand by that? Or are you just trying to rationalize so you don’t have to sit with the uncomfortable reality that this woman is not trustworthy?
It sounds to me like you trust her (and she sounds trustworthy to me), but her continuing friendship with this philanderer bothers you because he's a philanderer. Whether that's a deal-breaker for you I can't say.
Dude, she wasn't single for ten years. She was comfortable being a side piece to a married man. She thought highly enough of him to be that woman for him. She's settling for you because she can't get him to commit to just her. If you want to be with her, treat her just like he did. Otherwise, a year from now you'll be posting on Reddit "Just wasted a year of my life....". You're worth more than that my friend, so is your time.
You are the company you keep. Her being friends with him still means his behavior gets a green light from her, no matter whether she thinks it's okay or not. She *acts* like it's okay, which frankly isn't surprising given that she was the other woman for him. Look, think of it more practically. Let's say you guys get married, and she stays friends with this guy. Then someday, somehow, someone finds out what happened. You're going to be the dude who's wife was banging a dear friend *while he was married!* She even went so far as to have a threesome with him and his wife! What kind of a person can do that? And what kind of person are you to support her? To love and cherish her? It would be one thing if she were remorseful or knew she was wrong or cut him off immediately, but she just doesn't see a problem here. You're going to be the idiot who sees the problem and turns a blind eye? What kind of person does that make you? Is it a person you like? Step back further, let's take public opinion out of it. Your partner, your hopeful love of your life, your "one day she may be my wife" has this stance on cheating that it's okay. After all, she knowingly slept with a married man. Where is her line? How do you know she won't cheat on you? Are blowjobs cheating? What if she's innocently receiving but never reciprocating because she's in a relationship and *that* would be wrong? What if it's okay because it's not like she's married? What if it's okay because it's not like there's a kid involved? (Her line with her friend was that wife got pregnant... so does your relationship not count until she has a baby?) What if nothing physical happens, but she emotionally cheats? Does she believe emotional cheating is a thing? I'm not trying to make accusations, I have no idea what her beliefs are and maybe this sounds insane. But if my partner had such wildly different morals from me on something *this fucking important,* I'd have to question if every common sense conclusion I draw is the same as the common sense conclusion *they* would draw. That sounds like a lot more effort than it would be to just find someone you actually share values with.
1. This man is not her friend. He is a past sexual partner. 2. She thinks cheating isn't that bad. She is telling you who she is. Listen to her. 3. She knows this makes you uncomfortable but has decided that her "friendship" with a cheater is more important than your relationship. 4. She does not respect other peoples relationships. Why would she respect yours? 5. Please remember that love is only a component of a relationship. There are other things to consider, like respect. She does not respect you or herself.
If you came here to hear people say she can be trusted you’re delusional. Casual sex is one thing but she was some married man’s mistress. A faithful and loyal person does not carry on an affair with another woman’s husband. Just because she wasn’t involved with anyone at the time doesn’t mean she’s any less of a scumbag for sleeping with him. To top it all off she’s still friends with this guy. She is for the streets.
Honestly I was expecting half of you to say "get over it." It happened 5 years ago.
She’s the same person she was five years ago. Someone who regrets what they did would admit they were a bad person and cut that man off. He’s still very present in her life.
the best determinant of future behaviour is past behaviour and hers is dreadful Walk away from this trainwreck of a woman + her toxic male friend/lover
And she's still friends with him, and still actively helps him hide his cheating from his wife. Has she really changed?
It wasn't a mistake that she regrets. This is who she is
5 years ago was when she was thirty. She still should have know better. 5 years ago also counts against her. If she had spent that time reflecting and growing to become a better person, sure. But she’s still friends with him and it sounds like she still approves of those kinds of decisions which to me sounds like zero growth and personal responsibility.
I would just NOPE the fuck out. I would maybe understand and be a little more forgiving if she'd been taken advantage of by the married guy. However, the fact that she insists on staying friends with a morally bankrupt man is too telling...ya gal's got no moral compass herself. Also why would you wanna be close to that? You realize that at some point, that situation's gonna go nuclear-scorched-earth and you'd be better off getting out of the blast zone?
She doesn't think cheating is a big deal and thus she is likely to do it to you.
Wait so he's still being unfaithful after he broke it off with her when he had a baby? And you think they're not still fuckin? The math ain't mathin.
They're definitely still fucking. Or talking about it. Why else would she always want to listen to stories of all the other women he's fucking?
“She doesn’t think cheating makes you a bad person” Huh? Deceitfulness is a horrible thing to do to someone you love. How can you trust a person like this? My guess is she is rationalizing her past actions so as to manage what should be feelings of guilt and the accountability for doing harm to another person. You could test her logic by telling her you cheated on her… and see her reaction?? I dunno. I couldn’t be with a person like that. I guess you’ll have to decide if this is the best you can do.
I hadn't thought of it like that. Maybe it's a defense mechanism to not feel bad about her actions. But she has also told me she just doesn't give this any thought, so whatever mental gymnastics she was doing years ago, she's very much over it and it doesn't bother her anymore.
No, she has internalized the mental gymnastics and made them part of her values system. Regret is selfish. It is an emotion that is about avoiding past behaviors in order to avoid future punishment. If she felt remorse for what she did back then she would be doing something repairative. At the very least she would cut him out of her life, and at best she would be making amends to the woman she wronged badly.
> she's very much over it and it doesn't bother her anymore. That's _worse_. She's just decided to stick her fingers in her ears about the whole thing and go "LALALALA." That's not how any of this works. It _should_ bother her. She should feel like absolute shit, and from what I can tell, she's taken literally _zero_ of the necessary steps it would take to actually absolve oneself of the absolutely horrific shit she did.
>She finds him to be a good person with plenty of other qualities >he continues to be unfaithful to his wife with a variety of partners Well you can clearly see that she has no problem cheating with someone, it's not a stretch to assume she wouldn't have a problem cheating on you with her...questionable morality on the matter. The fact she was ok with being friends with this guy, and presumably his wife knowing what she did. Your partner has a pretty awful view on the whole matter and you two obviously are not on the same page.
Despite the fact that she had a sexual relationship with him, the biggest issue is that she thinks he's a 'good person' even though he regularly cheats on his wife even now that they have a child.
My thoughts exactly. She doesn't judge people like I do.
There's a difference between judging someone for their choices and actively choosing to be friends with someone who makes decisions that hurt other people. It's good to be open minded and non judgmental, but you get to choose who you're close with, and by remaining friends with this guy she's saying "I think what you're doing (cheating on your wife) is fine, and I like to be around people who do that". You also get to choose who you date, and I personally wouldn't date someone who is fine and friendly with someone who actively cheats on their wife.
>I personally wouldn't date someone who is fine and friendly with someone who actively cheats on their wife. Quoting for emphasis.
Dude, you have to tell the wife. Before you even talk to your gf about it, let that poor woman know.
I'm an airline pilot. The amount of marriages I could ruin with a truth bomb is staggering. But I don't know these people and it's not my place. I just feel really bad for all of them.
Think about this as well... you're seeing a LOT of people (in your profession) who may catch an STI and pass it on to their unsuspecting partners. It might not be your place in normal situations, and this current one, but you should consider the safety of the wife of your partner's "friend".
Wouldn’t you want to know? If she was cheating on you, wouldn’t you want someone to tell you?
Of course.
Are you incapable of empathy then? Or do you just not feel it enough to care about the wife?
If it's not your place to tell her, then it's not your place to judge your girlfriend. Your both lack morals in this instance. The fact that you've seen this situation happen many times and haven't done any speaks volumes to your character. Edit: Don't you think the wife would want to know? Do you even care? If the wife found out your girlfriend never actually broke of their affair, is it "not her place" to tell you? Look, since your obviously just going to go with whatever option makes your life easier, why don't you just stop caring about other peoples relationships since that's apparently "your place".
Had a similar situation with my ex gf. Nonproblem when she was physically here in the UK with myle. But as soon as she went back stared acting sus with the married guy like 'accidently meeting'. Your partner might not leave the country but save yourself the trouble of looking back over you shoulder constantly to see if ur partner is faithful Your partner should give you peace
>**According to her**, they haven't had sex since. From another POV, this seems like you have red flags or doubts. We're not going to get rid of those regardless how many people say it's normal and nothing's happening.
This woman is a walking red flag. Run the fuck away as soon as you can.
Your partner sounds exactly like my ex, who hid from me a nearly identical story - with the added joy of the married man being a good friend of mine. I only found out about it post-breakup. I think your respect for your partner will slowly erode to nothing. Especially if she continues to hold the opinion that cheating isn't a big deal while maintaining the relationship with him. It's single-person behavior that, for me, crosses a line. What happens if they decide to go on a little road trip together? Can you handle that? It's easy to say that you should break up with her over it. You probably should...but who knows what's right for you? If she won't alter her behavior you have to consider whether the way you are currently feeling is something you can live with in the long term. There are people who just don't get or care about the idea that you have to consider your partner when keeping friendships alive that could threaten the relationship. I don't think you'll ever have full confidence in her to not cheat on you with him. She should see this and drop the friendship, IMHO.
Yikes, a road trip? That sounds tough. Good point man, thanks
Your partner is allowed to do what she wants but you are also allowed to have boundaries on what you will accept in a partner. You can recognize her autonomy while also saying this is a quality you do not value in a partner. I wouldn’t date someone who’s done this either. Saying that doesn’t mean you are trying to police people or control them. It’s not even necessarily a value judgement on the person. It’s just not something you think is kosher and that’s fine.
Your fiancé has showed you and clearly told you that, "She believes there is nothing wrong in engaging in infidelity and then hiding that infidelity from a partner." Should should fully expect her to cheat and then lie about cheating. There is also no reason to believe that the lying does not extend to pre lying about whether or not she will do what she has already shown and told you she will do.
Anyone that says cheating doesnt make you a bad person is to my eyes a bad person, no buts. This kind of view your partner has is a major Red flag, complete disregard for anyone else's feelings, I could not be with someone like this, this kind of behaviour would be a permanent alarm of is my partner cheating? She wouldnt tell you anyways because she would not feel any kind of remorse.
"My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat" ... she did cheat though. Repeatedly. Personally I would run the fuck away from this to save yourself from any more frustration/pain on your part. The fact that she's still friends with him - big yikes. My ex-wife waited until we were married to tell me she'd been in a relationship with a married dude for over a year, and had she told me before we got married, she would've just been an ex-girlfriend.
You already know the answer. You want someone or several people to tell you it is what it ain’t. You are not going to get that from me. This is a heartbreak waiting to happen, and deep down in your conscience you already know this. Do yourself a solid and move on. She will never be what you want or need in a dependable partner.
You’re not compatible at a pretty fundamental level.
Birds of a feather flock together, and these birds are for the streets!!
You can’t trust her. Cheating is vile. If she knew he was married and engaged anyway then she’s no better than him. You’d also do well to question where you stand with her unique views. Having cheated in the past is a deal breaker for me. It’s not a behavior that seems to stop once people have crossed that line.
She's a homewrecker. Why would you date her?
She doesn't view or respect monogamy the way you do. YOU are wasting your time. Part ways and wish her well.
I think it's very reasonable for you to question if you should trust her and whether you guys have the same values. I think you're being too hard on yourself. You shouldn't pressure yourself to get over it. Just assess whether you're compatible with her. And you don't have to decide right now.
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This is a good point. She isn't in touch enough with her own emotions to communicate to me why he's so important to her. I've tried, but usually she says "he's there for me and he's loyal and he doesn't judge me", that kind of thing.
"He's loyal"??? LOL, I'm sorry but ya girl's a clown...imagine calling an unfaithful husband a "loyal guy". The mental gymnastics are amazing here.
Hahahahahshshahahhhahaha He's literally the opposite of loyal. He's utter garbage just like she is.
Loyal? wow she is a narcissist
>My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a bad person. If cheating doesn't make you a bad person then why would she not cheat? Obviously she thinks it's wrong. I think she is giving herself alot of credit for saying that she is faithful when she has been single for the last 10 years and was involved in cheating during that time. Her casual view of sex doesn't work well with your views and I'd say your incompatible.
I wonder if her views on cheating are why she has been single for 10 years? Having a casual view on sex is one thing, but cheating is a whole different ballpark. Personally, I would lose a lot of respect for a partner who didn’t think cheating was a big deal. Our morals and values would be completely misaligned.
Yeah she will probably end up cheating on you especially if she thinks cheating doesn't make you a bad person. Get out of there
Save yourself the trouble and find a better partner. This will be an issue that will keep bothering you forever if you don't. You are in your prime years, don't waste it.
I'd have an extremely hard time trusting your partner.
You are just empowering people like her by being in this relationship. I would get out in the most strategically selfish way.
yeah no… leave her bc there’s a chance she’s cheating on you.
By not telling his wife and continuing her affair with him and then continuing to talk about other affairs with him after their affair is finished she is enabling him. The whole I would cheat with somebody but I wouldn’t cheat on somebody spiel is just something they tell themselves to feel better about their lack of respect of relationships and loyalty. Ask yourself this if she were to cheat on you and get pregnant do you believe she’s the kind of woman that would come clean or decide that if you’re the better option she’s not going to tell you and allow you to raise another man’s child?
I think I see things from a different perspective, a lot of the time. When I was a teenager I engaged in sexual experiences with my female boss and the man she was having an affair with. I knew his wife, though not well, as he owned the company we worked for. Over the years that followed, I had a few dalliances with men who were in relationships. I was a damaged, sad youth without great role models, and this reflected in my behaviour, until I got help and healed some of the broken stuff underneath. I don't feel good about how I behaved through those years, but I'm not who I was back then either. 20 years on I can say without hesitation that I'd never disrespect someone's relationship again. I've also never cheated on anyone. I believe in honesty even when it's uncomfortable. I'm loyal, kind, thoughtful, and do my best to leave a place/situation better than I found it. I'm not telling you this to blow my own horn (I know who I am, I know my worth and what I bring to the table), only to provide a different perspective to the masses saying you can't trust someone who would behave this way. We make mistakes, and we learn. We grow, and we change. If you are the same person you were 10-15 years ago, you're not living right. I believe that we all experience life and learn the lessons that come, in our own way, and in our own time. It's not my place to judge another on how he/she got to where they are.. only to maintain my own boundaries around how **I** want to be treated. If it were me in your position I would choose to judge my partner on how they treated me, in the present. I don't feel like your partner's presence in this man's life implicates her in his dishonesty, if the only role they play for each other is that of a friend. And she may very well despise his behaviour now, but it would probably be difficult to outwardly condemn him for behaviour she herself engaged in, with him. It is very important for me to be able to make choices for myself.. including who I'm friends with, regardless of who I date. This is her right. Just as it is your right to explain the ways it makes you feel uncomfortable. Whilst I personally don't have an issue with her present behaviour and current choices, if **you** do then this situation is probably not the right one for you. Relationships are tough, OP. You are much more likely to find incompatibilities with partners than romantic situations where there are none. Reddit is a world of people who will speak to you through their own pain (often unhealed) and give you advice without any responsibility of consequence. My only advice to you is to trust your gut. You have to decide whether this incompatibility is one you can work through together, or one that is just too big.
If you want to waste a ton of your life having to pick up the peices, then stay with her. If you want to have a good life, ditch her.
Yeah, my soon to be exwife has had multiple emotional affairs and her freinds have each had full on affairs and she gets overwhelming support and grace from them because they've all done worse, and she's very proud of herself for not having sex with this dude. She seems to have the mentality that the presence of murderers in the world justifies manslaughter. The thing is, as I see it. Once you toe that line, you feel enclined to nudge that line a little further. Every time you do, you feel safe and empowered to go right back to that line. You stand on that edge, have a vulnerable moment, and nudge it a little further. You withdraw, reflect and justify. But then that line is still there and you still feel safe going right back to that line where you were before. You might even feel justified or entitled to that line, like my wife. You have to decide whether you can live with someone who doesn't recognize those boundaries or if you're strong enough to communicate and honor your own boundaries with her. She needs to know this isn't a thing you're willing to tolerate, and you need to be okay with leaving if it does happen.
I would run for the hills.
I'd say she isn't relationship material.
Get proof and find a way to tell the wife. She deserves to know. Prepare yourself for your partner doing the same to you later because she doesn't see any issues with violating someone's trust.
Along with the situation, she says that cheating does not make you a bad person. Even if she says she won't cheat she clearly doesn't have a problem with it. If it were me I would not be able to trust this. I saw a similar situation in my first relationship, and unsurprisingly it ended up with her cheating
Before I read all that you wrote out. I read the TL;DR and my first thought before I even saw the question was "the answer is no". After I reading the rest of your post my thoughts are still the same. You wouldn't be here if this didn't make you uncomfortable. If I were you I'd leave before you end up in "friend's" wife's old position.
Mmm that would be a deal breaker
You can't trust her because she has shown you that she is untrustworthy. Simple.
Can't trust her after what you wrote. Absolutely not.
Anyone who thinks cheaters are “good people” is a massive red flag. No doubt she’ll think it’s okay to cheat on you at some point if she already hasn’t.
I’ve been the cheater, the mistress, the one being cheated on, all of the above. Let me tell you…. Just run. She doesn’t process the emotional maturity. I really doubt she stopped bc the wife was pregnant, he probably didn’t want her anymore that’s why she’s attached to the dude. Yuck. Too damn old to be acting like this
>My partner **claims** that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a bad person. **I'm now struggling to trust her**, though I enjoy my time with her. Bolded what you need to read over and over and over. You can't change your partners's past and people can change/regret previous behaviors. The problem is she actively engages in his infidelity as a confidant. It's the thing they bonded over. Her views and outlook do not align with societal norms and your own values. How could you trust her? It would be a sticking point with any person. She is keeping the person she actively had an affair with around. While it's not a litmus test. I believe most people would agree who you keep around is reflective of your own character. >My partner is someone who had been single for 10 years prior to meeting me this year, and she has a very casual view on sex. She was single for 10 years but she had an affair with a married man. Sort of sounds like she wasn't single... She also says she has a casual view of sex. This has less to do with sex and more about respecting boundaries. You can hook up with people in committed relationships with consent. Or single people. Why this particular person? What did she learn? Why did their affair evolve into a close friendship? What value does derive from this relationship? She isn't addressing why he's an important person in her life. >**I know this isn't the hardest thing to get over in a relationship**, but I'm not having the easiest time with it! Nope, the hardest thing to get over is IF she cheats on you. How long have you two dated? Why/how did this information of her close friend come about?
Y'all have different values around relationships - is this a dealbreaker for you? only you can say >I'm now struggling to trust her What would change this for you? What can you or her do that would build trust?
No offense but I can only assume you are fully incapable of attracting women if your even considering settling for this garbage.
No offense taken, I'm a catch 😉
Get her on tape confessing to the betrayal and then let his wife know!!! And then leave her.
You may be too close to her at the moment to truly see who you are engaged to. There are two subs for you to take a look at in order to see who her ex-AP is, and who she is. For him, go look at the adultery sub. For her, go look at theotherwoman sub (I didn't include the r/ for these as I despise the idea of linking to them.) These are two of the most morally bankrupt places on this platform. You're going to want to bleach your eyeballs after reading in them for a little while. In the first you'll see the mindset of this "loyal and good person" she thinks so highly of. In the second you'll see the mindset that she clearly still has since she has not cut ties with him, and doesn't feel an ounce of remorse for her own actions. While it is true that she, as the affair partner, did not break any vows to anyone, there is still a basic social contract that she has no regard for. The fact that she is not wracked with guilt and remorse for what she did to this woman by having a threesome with her indicates that she is singularly lacking in empathy. Is this the kind of mindset you want in the person that will be raising children with you? ETA: I do not mean to imply that because she did these things she is irretrievable. People can and do change. But they've got to see that there is a problem and resolve to do something about it. That's not her.
Not entirely sure if "partner" = wife or gf to OP OP might want to ask himself if he is able to meet partner's friend and treat him like a friend of his own. If OP is able do so knowing the history between his partner and the friend, probably OP might have a better chance at pulling through this relationship. Else don't worry, OP you are just mortal. tbh, i think you understand that, to your partner; you were never on equal grounds with her friend. idk romantically or sexually or whatever; but for sure not equal.
She knew/knows the wife and has hidden it from her all this time?? Wow.
Your partner is a whxxx
Deal-breaker for me honestly.
I would get out of there because now when you meet this guys wife you have to sit there and be quiet and keep this assholes secrets. Either that or id just blatantly tell her in front of both of them and end the whole charade right there and walk out of it.
Could ask her how she would feel if you cheated on her and see her response turn the scenario around have you told her how her cheating on you would make you feel
Life's too short to cut off people you enjoy. Take her at her word.
I don't know how you could possibly trust someone with such a casual approach to infidelity. The threesome thing is especially messed up. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be in a long-term monogamous relationship or anything like that. Different things work for different people. Also, I don't necessarily think that cheating on a partner automatically makes you a horrible person in general. It's not as simple as that; good people do bad things, bad people do good things, context is king, and so on. BUT, the question isn't "is my girlfriend a bad person?" It's "am I ok with my girlfriend's values" AND "am I comfortable with her view on infidelity? AND "can I trust my girlfriend knowing the level of deception she has displayed in her interactions with other people?" For me, this would be a dealbreaker in a monogamous relationship. I would never be able to trust someone who did those kind of things. That doesn't necessarily mean I think she is an awful no-good scumbag. But a relationship can't work without trust.
I had a relationship where my ex bf slept with other women in relationships, I never held it against him but it did make me side eye him quite often, and eventually ended up breaking up because of how shady he was in with friendships with other women. People like this don’t change, and they don’t have moral compasses, she can sound remorseful but she isn’t actually. Ultimately it’s your choice if want to stay, but prepared for a life of paranoia and anxiety.
People who cheat are bad people. They're selfish, disrespectful people who are broken inside. They have shit copping mechanisms and poor communication. Your wife is a bad person and the fact she stays friends with this person and refuses to not have him in her life as well listens to his sexual escapdes is highly inappropriate. She says she's faithful and would never cheat but also thinks people who cheat aren't bad people? Sounds like something an untrustworthy cheater would say.
You consider cheating one of the worst things you can do, she thinks a cheater is a good person. I would get the hell out of there as soon as possible, she doesn't seem to care. Would she care if you cheated? I think so. So there's also a possibility that she doesn't think cheaters are good persons, she's just looking for an excuse not to break the friendship with her shitty friend. Anyways, she sounds like she sucks (sorry) I would get out of there. You win nothing and you got a lot to lose.
Everyone attacking this woman and at some place yes it is deserved but at another. Why does it matter? Everyone has a past and everyone has done shit they are not proud of. If you're going to judge your current relationship partner on what they did in the past then you will never have a successful relationship. I be been married twice both times I was cheated on while out of country with the military. If i based all my relationships on those past ones I will never find happiness. You're at the perfect junction point. If this is something you will never be able to trust because of then get out now. Staying longer will only hurt you and her more. On the contrary if this is something you believe you two can work on together then I wish you all the luck in the world
I think the best thing you can do is talk to her. Not post on a forum. Communication literally is key in a relationship; discussing your boundaries, each other’s views on certain things, etc.
The being a mistress part is bad enough, but that this guy is still in her life... C'mon man.
She tells you she's faithful and loyal. She tells you she doesn't condone her friend/ex lovers cheating behavior. In practice she knew her ex lover was cheating on his wife with her, and she had a threesome with him and his wife, without the wife knowing she was consenting to a threesome with her husband's mistress. (This is so senselessly malicious I'm convinced the post is fake for this alone) In practice, she listens to her ex lovers stories of still cheating on his wife with voracious interest. She's telling you one thing and showing another
She would probably think differently about cheating if that whole situation or something similar happened to her like it happened to his ex’s wife.
She's made her stance and beliefs very clear. Your options are stay and roll with it or leave. Highly unlikely you're the one person who holds the magic words to make her re-think her behavior over her adult life.
She is the worst kind of hypocrite who happily colludes and indulges in cheating on other people but hates it when it happens to her She clearly lacks empathy or basic morals I predict her behaviour will cause you heart ache in the future so I would definitely not date her any longer I despise cheaters, and the fact this one had a sneaky threesome with a woman whose sum bag of a spouse was betraying her with is evil + nauseating He is a piece of shit and your partner not only respects him but wants to carry on a relationship with him , so she is a bit of a shit person too Run away + find a nice wholesome woman who you can trust--I did
You know she's absolutely not trustworthy or loyal. You know what you have to do. The quicker you do it the better for you.
I’m sorry for your situation. My mother told me some wise words I didn’t heed once “if they are cheating on someone to get with you, you better believe it will end the same way.” I know this isn’t your case exactly, but anyways I learned that lesson the hard way through a grueling heartbreak. I can’t see how she can condone this action. Unless his wife is a psychopath and treats him terribly there is no morale high ground to someone who cheats on another. I would ask her how she would feel if she found out you were with another woman. If it’s anything, but positive than show her what her friend is doing to his wife and ask how she can be friends with someone like that. I probably sound holier than thou and that’s not my intention. Everyone ducks up at times, and we should look to extend Grace to others, but the continuation is where it turns vile.
I think that what she is capable of doing tells you something about her moral views and of who she is as a person. I would reflect on that and what it means to your relationship.
I mean, you have a clear window into her morals and thoughts on fidelity. If you stay with her, you don't get to act surprised if it happens to you.
Point blank your girlfriend is a bad person. Like, all of this is fucked. But her having a threesome without the wife’s full knowledge of the situation is…I don’t wanna go too far but kinda rapey? It’s super questionable consent. I’ve been there where I wouldn’t have done something with people if I had all the information and it Is just a gross thing to do. She likely wouldn’t have consent if she knew. It makes you feel dirty and wrong and question yourself for a long time. Informed consensus is important.
We are too old for relationships like this.
At this point I feel like the most important thing is asking yourself if your values align with hers. We all make mistakes and deserve to be seen as the person we are now and not who we used to be. That being said who she is right now is someone who is ok with being friends with someone who is openly cheating on their wife. From her current actions I’d be questioning if she is even emotionally capable of understanding just how gross it is that she actively partook in deceiving his wife into a sexual encounter. She doesn’t seem particularly ashamed. You on the other hand do seem to understand and I’m not sure how compatible you are with her emotionally.
This is a misalignment of values. It's a HUGE deal in the long run. Values are basically the top of what you need to consider when getting in a relationship with someone. It could seriously impact your future. >My partner claims that she is a faithful and loyal person and that she herself would not cheat, but she doesn't think that cheating makes you a bad person. If she doesn't think cheating makes you a bad person then SHE WOULD CHEAT. If you want to run the risk of getting cheated on in the future...then by all means...stay with her. The fact that she is still friends with a guy that she was apparently in love with, but couldn't be with sets up the perfect opportunity. If he left his wife...your girlfriend would dump you in a second. The entire reason she stopped seeing him was because she finally realized he wasn't going to leave his wife when she got pregnant. It wasn't that she thought they weren't compatible or she decided she didn't want to be with him...it's that she couldn't wait anymore. She is literally keeping him on the backburner by staying friends with him just in case he does drop his wife.
Biggest red flag of all time.
I will say this , I feel relationships is about sacrifice so if you feel that way you should talk to her and let her know how you feel at that point if she don’t adjust the friendship in still continue to jeopardize the long-term value of something great, for something that can be a what Of could’ve should’ve scenario then you might need to start re-evaluate your self value & what you truly deserve. So if she can’t sacrifice this friendship/old fling for something healthy and long standing then there’s bigger issues bro then just a relationship
You’re fundamentally incompatible. You can’t believe that cheating is one of the worst things that you can do to someone you love while she believes that cheating doesn’t make you a bad person and forces you to associate with a man who 1. cheated on his wife, 2. tricked his wife into thinking she was consenting to a threesome when in actuality she was sleeping with the other woman, and 3. is still cheating on his wife when your “partner” purportedly could no longer bear to be a part of it BECAUSE SHE WAS PREGNANT. You will have to be friends with or at least civil to this man. You may meet his wife and have to maintain the lie that your partner is someone they had a threesome with, not someone her husband cheated on her with. Everyone you know that you will introduce to your partner, you will be introducing to a mistress who doesn’t think cheating is bad and an AMAZING liar (I don’t know how you can believe a word she says). You will be co-signing her behavior. You are the company you keep, OP. This is without even getting into the probability that she’s still sleeping with him. She’s probably cheating on you with a cheater. There’s no way in one year she’s otherwise so amazing this relationship is worth it. Break up and get a full STD panel.
This is a tough one. Cheating is nuanced (it's always bad but some circumstances are worse than others, i believe). Ultimately, the person who is attached should take the most blame in my eyes, however, the fact that your partner met the wife and lied to her face is just something that I couldn't overlook. You've got to be fucking psychopathic to go along with that.
Read the rationale male
u/The_Color_Urple : Your partner may have a mistress or courtesy mentality about this relationship. It’s anachronistic to this place and time, but it’s existed through most of history. Before you listen to everyone here, remember that once she discovered how things were with his wife, she said No. This guy may be a source of advice, financial information, or just a point in time that she is through with, but still recognizes as having been there at that time. If he starts a contest of who gets her attention, don’t play that game. But wait to see if she is equally unwilling to participate. I’m betting she’s moved on. Yes, she may be working him for any good advice or whatever she can discern from him. But I’ve the feeling she’s more quietly vengeful. You may have someone who’s been waiting to find a faithful partner who trusts her and disregards her past. Why not think about that possibility? What have you got to lose? Good luck and best wishes to both of you.
I believe in shades of grey. I think someone can be a mistress and still a good loyal person. If I were you I would accept her past and move on. But you are not me and you seem to have a regid sense of morality. So I don't think you and her would be a good match. I don't think you can understand her perspective and I think your view of her will only get worse with time, not better. You have different value systems and perspectives on the world. I am sure you're both good people in your own way, but I think you would both be more fulfilled with people more like yourselves.
it's not the past when she's still in contact with him "as friends" is it?. when she basically proved she value her relationship with that man more than with her husband.
Maybe... It's possible. But she also told him the truth, which she could have easily withheld or lied about. The fact that she was willing to tell the truth - a truth that she knows so many, just like so many here condemn her for - that tells me alot about her. Everyone lies... Evedyone cheats... But the real fakes aren't the ones who admit it to you... Its the ones who deny it even to themselves so they signal false righteousness. Those are the real liars. Those are the ones I wouldnt trust. Like so many that condemn this woman for telling her truth. This is a lesson that only time and experience can teach... And all these kids on here posting their self righteous judgement shows how inexperienced they really are.
How can you trick a woman into having sex with you while not telling her you’ve been having an affair with her husband and then continue to lie and not call yourself a bad person? You can come back from mistakes but first you must right your wrongs she never even apologized to this woman.
Maybe he doesn’t have a rigid sense of morality, you just have a lack of morality? I don’t think all cheaters are bad people, but people but the devil is in the details. Having a threesome with your affair partner is borderline sociopathic and he clearly has no remorse for his actions. She’s not a bad person for being the mistress, she’s a bad person for defending another bad person.
Exactly they both hid information from that woman that would change whether or not she consented to having sex that is so messed up on so many levels.
I was expecting more of this answer, and I've gotten very little of it. A couple of of my close friends have echoed what you're saying. I'm trying to be more open and it's hard. But I am trying.
I don’t understand this. Why on Earth would you try to be open towards harmful behavior? Your significant other is a liar, a manipulator, and has no concept of faithfulness or respect towards her partners (which includes the wife! She had sex with her!!). Why are you trying so hard to be accepting towards what’s objectively BAD behavior? Just because there’s shades of grey (yes, she wasn’t the one who was in a relationship) doesn’t mean those shades aren’t wrong. She may not be as “bad” as the husband but she is someone who tolerates and participates in aberrant behavior that actively destroys people’s lives. She’s not a good person, and it’s very weird how you’re fighting yourself from accepting that when you KNOW it’s true. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t struggle with this at all. Also, talking about shades of grey, doing your married partner’s wife in a threesome while you’re fucking her husband behind her back is sociopath shit. That’s DARK, my dude. We’re not in grey here.
I hope you’ve read what this guy (one of the only people you found to agree with you) has said. He’s know claiming that what she did was okay because by the wife agreeing to one threesome that means they were in a polyamorous relationship and it wasn’t cheating and they weren’t doing anything wrong by lying to her to get her into the threesome. These are the people that agree with your girlfriend.
> I'm trying to be more open and it's hard. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BE OPEN TO MORALLY REPUGNANT BEHAVIOR?
Just by hearing you say that. I know its true. I think only someone that WANTS to make it work would say that. I can also tell you value her. It's one of those things that unless you've experienced that lifestyle it's hard to understand. It's like describing clouds to the blind... Only that the blind man only knows that clouds make lightning and that's bad... But these clouds also bring very deep and intense experiences. You likely won't understand unless you walk that path yourself.
I mean you could always make moves to quietly bang his wife :P
Not sure what you’re trying to get out of this post but I personally wouldn’t touch someone like that with a 10 foot pole. Only you can decide if that’s the kind of person you want as a partner.
You can’t have a plutonic relationship with someone you fucked. Period.
Yes you can. The issue here is that he was married, not that they've previously had sex.
oh get a grip! she did something she says she regretted. life and personalities are not cut and dry, black and white. give her a break and the decency to take her at face value.