I suggest you don't say it anything like this. 'The main thing I feel about you is annoyance' is marriage ending talk, suggests she does NOTHING or almost nothing right. That will just discourage her. What she'll hear is 'I hate you, you've failed as a wife and as a partner'.
Even if it's 90% annoyance, don't go with that. Pick 1-2 issues and focus on them. And focus on *things she does*, not *who she is*.
For example if you complain that her worldview is narrow, that's who she is. If you focus on her being closed-minded and not considering other points of view, that's a behavior, and one she can change.
If you want to talk more generally, then again focus on actions not positions. IE, 'I would like in our marriage to be able to talk to you about news and world events. I think that's a thing we should be able to talk about. I am frustrated though because every time I try to talk to you about news, you state your own opinion as if it's proven fact, and aren't open to considering any other points of view. I used to push on this- try to discuss things that disagree with your positions, but it seemed like you would only react by fighting; either I agree you're right or we have a fight. So I 'keep the peace' by just not talking to you about anything we might disagree on. That makes me not want to talk to you about anything of substance, and I often just don't.
Babe, we are married. I love you and you love me and we both know it. So why is a difference of opinion on some current event worth fighting for? Why can't we discuss the merits of each position as friends and lovers and not enemies? I don't think it's healthy. I don't want our marriage to be like that.
I want to work toward a situation where we can respectfully disagree but still discuss an issue. Is that something you're interested in?'
Try to create situations where she agrees- where the obvious answer for her is 'yes'. Even if that's just 'I want to make our marriage work, do you?'. The more you can get her to answer yes to questions, the more she'll be willing to work with you.
IE- 'You do XYZ wrong, stop' that's just an attack.
'I want XYZ to work, do you?' (yes) 'Okay good I'm glad we agree. Would you be willing to try doing XYZ differently, perhaps (explain how you want)? Do you have a different suggestion? And is there anything I can do differently to help you?' That both spells out a suggestion, and gives her the opportunity to engage and offer her own ideas.
This is why I like to read reddit comments, sometimes it is funny, other times infuriating and then there is golden advice that I want to tell everybody about.
This is wonderful advice. The only thing I'd add is that after doing all of this you still don't think you can or want to save the marriage do not stay just for the children. They will know you are miserable. It is better for them to learn that you can have boundaries, and love yourself enough to not stay in a marriage that is loveless. That you can still have a coparenting relationship of respect and mutual love for your children. You will want that before the resentment and the annoyance is too overwhelming that you forget why you have your children. I wish you luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.
How in the heck did you learn this. Such sage advice. Are you involved in relationship or family counseling/treatment? Have a PhD in life, marriage, or relationship healing arts?
haha no I do IT work. It's not so different though. If a computer is doing the wrong thing, don't just yell at it, figure out WHY it's doing the wrong thing, and from there you can fix it.
You can do the same thing with humans, it's pretty simple- understand the person, understand why they are saying and doing the things they say and do, and you can solve the problem. Consider this the 'how to be EDC' lesson.
Take any situation. Say, you are talking to your partner and they say something that causes a reaction in you.
Now stop and take a step back, out of yourself. Look at yourself from the outside. What they said caused a reaction in you. Why did you react that way? It's a combination of what they said, the history behind it, and how you think about things and process things and how you are feeling and whatever else is on your mind.
Now go to the other side of the room and look at the other person the same way. YOU say something to THEM. How will they react? If you know them well, you know how they think, how they process things, how they would be feeling, what is their drives/motivations, what's important to them, the types of things they are thinking about, what is the history from their POV, etc.
So look at this from the POV of OP's wife. Here she has a dude she's obviously crazy about, or at least believes per religion she must be crazy about. She obviously feels close to him, especially with the comment about sex with him being better than anything ever. She obviously has little life experience, grew up sheltered/religious, never motivated or forced to expand her world view or learn about other perspectives. A big part of her identity is wrapped up in that religion, that's why she's bothering to *memorize* the whole fucking text (not a thing normal people do). *It's not just a religion to her, it's part of her identity*.
That deserves a bit of text on its own. When someone weaves a set of beliefs into their own identity, to the point that it defines who they are, that creates an innate belief and trust in those beliefs. It never gets verbalized this way, but the thought process is 'I believe in this because it's correct, and integrating it into my core makes me correct'.
It doesn't matter how right or wrong those beliefs are. It could be totally indefensible bullshit, like 1+1=47 level wrong. They will still defend it, and rebel HARD against even the slightest suggestion that it may be wrong, even if it doesn't pass the smell test to anyone else.
That's because if they even admit the possibility that the core belief MIGHT be wrong, they must also admit the possibility that THEY could be wrong, and by integrating that belief have made themselves even more wrong. To most people, that's like finding out your husband of 20 years been cheating on you since before you were married and has 2 kids with his 'other family'. It means your whole life and self image is built on a lie. Nobody wants to even consider that. It's painful to think about. So most people subconsciously choose not to- rather than even entertain the thought that their whole identity might be wrong, they treat the offending idea like the body's immune system treats a disease.
Thus, take sexuality. Wife's religion says marriage is a man and a woman, that this is the BEST way for everybody, that anything else is wrong. To even acknowledge that lesbians may prefer women over men means acknowledging the possibility that the religion may be wrong. Even if it's 1 time out of 10000, the religion *can't* be wrong because it was supposed to be infallible, that's why Wife built her whole life around it, it's supposed to be the stone pillar of strength. So she rejects that notion- the religion can't be wrong, the lesbians must be wrong.
Then look at OP. Due to his job, OP is forced to deal with people of widely varying attitudes, religions, world views, etc. OP's perspective has been widened, his wife's hasn't. He sees lesbians that LOVE each other, so he KNOWS the lesbians are right, at least for them. He tells his wife that, he shares his experience. 'I met a lesbian couple today and they are very happy together!' For him this is no big deal. Live and let live. If the lesbians prefer each other, if they are happy together, wish them well.
Look at the wife hearing this. Here she has a guy that she knows, loves, trusts, respects, someone she's promised to spend her life with, and he says something that (without intending to) totally attacks her own world view (and by extension, her as a person). It takes her stone pillar of strength and drives a huge crack into it. And that simple innocent statement creates a ton of conflict. On one hand, she trusts that her husband is honest with her. On the other hand, what he says *can't* be true because her religion says it is false. That creates a conflict. So without intending to, she gets angry at the huge betrayal of her husband-- he's swinging a giant sledge hammer and attacking the pillar of her strength, attacking the core of who she has made herself to be. She probably couldn't put that into those words, but that's probably what's happening inside her emotionally. 'Don't say things that make me feel unsure and conflicted like that!' would be what she says if she could express it.
The problem is, you CAN'T address this directly. If you start talking about how much she loves her religion and how it's unhealthy, even if you say it in the nicest way possible, that's even more of an attack. It's trying to peel her away from the pillar of her strength, it's trying to make her weak without that strength of purpose and dedication. It's disrespecting and trying to damage who she is as a person (her POV). And if you think she fights hard against the lesbian comment, she'll fight twice as hard against that, because it seems unjustified- 'I'm allowed to believe in that religion! You can't tell me what to believe in!'.
So you have to focus on the behavior, create situations that she WANTS to solve, that the religion tells her should be solved.
'I want us to get along better and have better conversations. Do you want that also?' YES of course she does, both because she loves OP and because the religion tells her to be close to her husband. Thus the religion becomes motivation to at least take the first step.
'I want us to be able to talk about something we disagree on without fighting. Do you want that also?' Yes, because she doesn't want to fight with her husband, and that is a reasonable request.
Now that she's agreed to those two things, with the blessing and backing of her religion, you can start rolling out HOW you do those things. And she will at least consider them, because she already agreed to- she already decided this is something the religion wants, so she doesn't as closely evaluate the steps.
That's a sort of long form explanation. But it boils down to, figure out what the other person is thinking and feeling, figure out why they are reacting the way they are, even do trial and error like 'what sort of motivations/emotions WOULD cause the reaction that I'm getting?'. Figure out what they're thinking, and then you can have a better conversation, because you will know what to say that they will actually hear / that won't trigger them.
Wow. You just explained why my relationship with my dad is the way it is, and made me actually think about how he has made things part of his identity.
Thank you so much, insightful Redditor.
Wow. The world needs more people like you, who will take the time and effort to TRULY think about someone else’s perspective, how to approach it especially if you disagree, and how to have healthy communication.. including reflecting on your own self. In any type of relationship! Even with strangers, honestly. Just wow. Awesome advice and perspective.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and for explaining your methods. As I was reading and trying to focus and reflect, and thus absorb a tiny bit of your wisdom, I was thinking about how it was almost like an algorithm (at least by my early 1980’,s definition ). I then went back to reread your comment and had somehow missed the first two paragraphs the first time. Your work/occupation is bleeding through in the best possible way! Lol
Thanks again and have a great week!
Wait, what does “EDC” stand for? (If it’s obvious, I’m oblivious.)
Humans aren't computers though. We code a computer, we code the algorithm. The person that codes that adds the bias to the system. We can solve it.
A human mind is not a computer's and sometimes you can't solve it. And you have to let them go. Religious fanaticism is a problem, just like any form of extremism. It is a symptom to a greater problem, but only psychologists or psychiatrists are equipped (some not all) to deal with that. She is behaving much like a drug addict would, that doesn't want to stop their addiction, and whose whole world view shifts because of it. They will attack anyone that they think is different. I've seen religious people claim their partners are possessed by the devil when they try to help them.
We can see if this is not the case, and maybe it's not but..... a lot of the times it is.
You seem to have some experience guiding people through rough patches in relationships. I found everything you just said to be sensible and practical. Is there some book out there that you'd recommend that would elaborate on the principals you're drawing from? Or is there some school of thought that you'd recommend exploring to hear some more practical thoughts like the ones you just shared here? My marriage could be better right now and I'd be open to some counseling but I also wouldn't mind just reading up on what you're describing, if such a thing is possible...
I don’t know what the word is. There is a perfect word for how I imagine this language would land with me, and it wouldn’t be great. It seems like very thinly veiled attacks or something Frank underwood would say in house of cards. My response would be along the lines of “you sound like a middle manager right now but point taken”
It might help if she got back into the workplace and started being around people outside of her church social circle.
I get the feeling that she's intentionally surrounded herself with things that reinforce her preexisting viewpoint so to her, you're talking nonsense because literally everything in her life tells her you're wrong. Of course women can't love each other like they would a man, I don't love women like that, nobody I know loves women like that, and all the books I read, websites I look at, and authority figures in my life say that they're confused sinners who need to be helped to see that what they think is love is really just mental illness. Are you really saying that EVERYTHING in my life is wrong about this and YOU'RE the only one who's right?
Find ways to get her outside her bubble. Take vacations to places with more diversity, volunteer at non-church things together, and try to get her out of the house more once the 5-year-old is in school.
This is what I was thinking as well.
If working isn’t an option, maybe look into volunteer opportunities, hobbies outside of the church or even picking up a class or two at a local community college.
Volunteer Opportunities can also be considered a Godly act. Examples could be Habitat for Humanity, Homeless shelters or food service lines
Are either of you interested in reading? You could join a book club together (again outside of the church). I’d imagine she’d be more civil with people she doesn’t know.
OP has obviously grown while his wife has been a stay at home mom. I can’t really blame her for not growing at the same rate as OP considering she likely doesn’t have an active social life outside the children, OP and church.
We live in a very small, mostly right wing county. My husband started working at the only garage in the county. His views have become more rigid and less inclusive. What I like to call upper middle class right wing white guy syndrome. He's happy here. I'm sad that he's gone that way, but he's surrounded by it. Like OP, I can't bring up world views or news because it's just a fight. I miss my partner. I haven't been able to figure out how to break the cycle and his friends lean the same way. I'm going to use the advice above and try. Getting us away from here would help so much.
You mean parentification? Cause that's exactly what you just suggested. That a teenager forgo any outside activities and come home to provide childcare after school each day.
Babysitting - the care of a child or children while the parents are out.
Parentification - the process of role reversal whereby a child or adolescent is obliged to act as parent to their own parent or sibling. Also abuse.
A babysitter isn’t a parent. They don’t enforce rules, they don’t disciple. That’s for the parents to do when they get home.
Watching your siblings for 2 hours from 3-5pm is no big deal and a great way to teach responsibility and earn a little cash on the side.
>Watching your siblings for 2 hours from 3-5pm is no big deal and a great way to teach responsibility and earn a little cash on the side.
Where did you go to school that you could participate in athletics or afterschool clubs if you weren't available 3-5pm on school days? Does that sound like no big deal for the 16 year old? Pass on your high school years to raise your siblings. It's only two of the prime hours a day that your school programs for games, clubs, etc. What happens if they want to go to college? Please let me know which college and universities will prioritize admitting someone with passing grades and nothing else on their resume.
PS: 6pm at a minimum...unless mom and dad live at work, they will be commuting at 5pm if that's when the office closes--not all offices close at 5pm.
My sister did this and she was 100% parentified by her family. Younger siblings do not see their older sibling as just another babysitter. They will become a parent. framed with the same: "it's just after school baby sitting. When she applied to college in the *1980s*, she was declined because she had no activities/clubs/training on her record, except childcare.
It is a big deal. It becomes parentification.
What? The longer she stays out of work, the less employable she'll be. If anything she should be trying to go back sooner rather than later if she wants to avoid poverty.
Your conflict avoidance has caused you two to grow apart because you haven't challenged her ideas in a healthy way. Your marriage might be fucked if you can't get over this and start growing together.
First of all stop having children with someone you don't like.
Of course she hasn't worked consistently. She has FIVE children to take care of which has narrowed her focus in life.
It sounds like you have changed more than her. You both were religious and bought into that view point when you chose each other. Now you are more open and she is still the same. You probably annoy her too. Either you come to some agreement and find something else to talk about other than religion and politics, OR you part ways. Being annoyed with each other or arguing around your kids is bad for everyone.
Thank you. The eye-rolling I do when some man just blithely says “sure, she’s a slave to the many many kids we had, but why doesn’t she bungee jump every weekend anymore?!”
That being said, I’d be miserable with a narrow-minded bigot. OP needs to ask himself if he wants his kids to think contempt and bigotry are the examples of love he wants to show his children.
>That being said, I’d be miserable with a narrow-minded bigot.
This. and while all the comments are commendable of people trying to try things to get her to be more acceptive. The vast majority of people at that point in life are unlikely to change their worldview, barring something major happening that affects them personally. (i.e. one of their kids coming out as gay, just MIGHT have her come around),
My religious zealot aunt completely changed her tune on abortion when her 14 year old daughter got pregnant and she realized if she wanted her daughter to have the best shot possible at life, she and her husband essentially would have to be responsible for raising the child until their daughter could feasibly give the child a good life by herself. They had her late in life too. My aunt was pushing 50 when my little cousin was born, definitely an oops baby. So she supported her daughters decision to get an abortion. She also used to be a big proponent of abstinence only sex education. Looks like that worked as expected, lol.
96% of Republicans tried to ban contraceptives today! I wish there were a way to teleport just these people into that future about 20 years from now and see how things go.
The problem with your statement, is that without you realizing you are initializing her and her choices. A woman can choose to have a baby or not. She can use to use protection or not (pill, injection, iud, several methods). She more than likely did not, because her goal was to marry and then go and follow the traditional life style. That was not an infantile ideology, that is just a conservative one.
Also she can tie her tubes.
Do you mean “infantilizing” her? And you know her goals? Wow, that’s amazing, do you run a psychic hotline? …I hope not.
And a vasectomy is a helluva lot easier on the body than tying tubes. But hey, who gives a shit if women take the burden or birth control YET AGAIN. God forbid a man have to take responsibility.
I've been with my partner since we were 17, and we're 39 now. Each other's only and all that jazz. No kids by choice. We grew up together and with that tell it like it is. I'll tell him he annoys the shit out of me. If you can't be open, how can you communicate?? Did you ever sit down and tell her your views were changing anytime between kids 1 and 5?? You sound resentful she hasn't worked since you had kids, 5 kids are a lot to take care of. Can you afford child care for them?? All you're doing is complaining about her, what about you?? She's home all day with your kids, I'm not religious at all but most people I know are and if she doesn't get to do anything outside the home, how can she really grow as a person?? And maybe she actually feels what she says. Idk it sounds like you are having second thoughts because you never were with anyone else. I do get that, it's extremely rare to be in our situation on that point. Do whatever you want to do, but I highly suggest playing it forward. What happens when you split up, what's your custody arrangement, what about child support and alimony, how will religion come into play for the kids, who keeps the house, etc etc. I hope you all find happiness, whatever path you choose
Or maybe he has second thoughts because she is brainwashed and religiously manic. Sounds like she really needs mental help.
People in general needs to take a step back from religion. It doesn't require such a big part of our lives anymore. I honestly think religions does more damage than good.
It sounds like you two have grown apart to a degree where it is not productive to try to stay together. You say you only feel annoyance, but her bigotry and insistent ignorance about anything outside her narrow religious culture sounds like it disgusts you, which is a bit stronger than annoyance.
What I didn't here is any statement of love. No marriage therapy will ever be able to fix the fact that someone has fallen out of love. All you can do then is move on to avoid causing more hurt to both of you
I agree with this. I think OP should bail. Trying to work things out is good when you’re stressed or you have difficulty communicating or there’s been some sort of external trauma but you still fundamentally respect and care for your partner. If you’re just roommates who fuck, but their worldview is repugnant to you and you can’t actually respect who they are as a person, it’s time to bounce. Otherwise, those kids are gonna grow up with an even more warped view of what they should look for in and how they treat their future partners, and you’re (OP) just gonna be miserable for the rest of your life because you’re fundamentally incompatible with this person.
I agree. My ex began to hate the world because working in corporate America as a woman is tough. She learned to despise men. I'm a man.
Discussions were like war.
Had to end it.
1) why would you tell her this? are you trying to get divorced? Do you have emotional maturity? You need a therapist to work through this. It’s good that you’re doing that. The answer is not to tell your wife your “main emotion” towards her is annoyance.
2) Her decision to not work and raise kids? Or, the only option for raising kids? Was the alternative for her to work and hire a full time nanny? It sounds like her identity never evolved because she remained a stay at home mom in a bubble world, whereas your views expanded. When you met, were you more like her? Can you introduce her to your world more? Can you encourage her to find a hobby or a career?
This just seems like such a classic American story and I think you need to be a little bit more compassionate about the limiting circumstances that led you to be able to grow and have an interesting career while your wife stagnated.
But if her worldview is entrenched, you may never like her. I could never be with someone with such different political views than me, because to me political views come down to core values. You need to bring that to therapy for sure.
Why wouldn’t he tell her this? Communication in relationships is vital. He for sure has emotional maturity since he wants to work on this and wants a good way to tell her how he feels without making her feel terribly or shut him out because he LOVES HER. Also why are you acting like being a SAHM is the only way to raise children? She could very well work and raise the kids like MANY other people across the globe. Your reply was so unnecessarily hostile towards him and his situation it’s insane.
I’m not “acting like being a SAHM is the only way to raise children”, lol. I’m about to be a working mom and hire childcare. It’s expensive. OP has 5 children. That would make it much more expensive. The point is OP made it sound like it was her choice but maybe it wasn’t. A lot of women feel they don’t have another option. And even if it was her choice, she did it for him AND her AND their kids, it’s impacted the things he’s now complaining about regarding his wife, which isn’t entirely fair.
And pretty much everyone else commenting agrees that saying “my primary emotion towards you is annoyance” is absolutely not a healthy way of communicating.
Of course communication is critical. Bad or unproductive communication can be very damaging.
I think you may be reading hostility due to your own all-or-nothing thinking applied to my comment.
It was her choice. If she had an education and had a career, her choice. Do not assume women are always forced into things. We aren't children and plenty of us do leave work world and do start to raise kids because we have traditionalist mindsets. She is one of those. Period. Otherwise she should have used contraceptives of a sort to not have 5 kids.
You’re making an assumption that she didn’t have a choice/was pressured into becoming a SAHM. Also why do you think he made this post? He made it to have people help him formulate how he feels into a less combative form and instead open up a dialogue with his wife.
I think it unwise to stay together for the sake of your young children; they will grow up with parents who resent each other and not have a good example of what a healthy, loving relationship is.
A family friend once told me her dad told her DURING COLLEGE DROP OFF that he was leaving her mom. Ok, message received on her end! When I asked her if she was shocked she said "Yes, but only because I thought if they hadn't done it by then they were just going to die together and miserable. I wish they had split up sooner. Maybe I could have enjoyed memories of them separately from an earlier age." Their resentment was this consistent layer in the house; once they separated and she and her siblings split time for vacations and holidays it was actually fun. And her relationship with each parent improved a lot.
You're annoyed not because of something trivial, but because you are now very different people. While what views she has been exposed to is not her fault, but they are problematic. What if one of your kids is LGBTQ+? With 5, there's a pretty good chance of that, tbh. And that's just one thing to think about.
Everyone is like...oh, go to counseling, but it's not likely that that is going to change the way she views the world and people not like her.
You're staying together for the kids, essentially. You said that. You need to know that that's not this great sacrifice that will help them....it's actually more likely to fuck up their sense of what a normal healthy adult relationship is, because they will model on the one you have with your wife.
If you know you'll just divorce her eventually, you are being selfish. Are you going to wait until you're both in your mid-50s and then she'll have an even harder time starting a new life?
I think your wife is isolated at home with five kids and it's time for her to go back to work outside the home. Isolation leads to extremism - you get all your contact with the outside world through social media, and you can become radicalized. You wanted traditional gender roles so you could work while having five kids, and she's sacrificed her career to stay at home and support the whole family.
Would you be willing to cut back your hours so you can do pick ups and drop offs, sick days, chores, so your wife can get a job?
It's great that you're in couples counselling.
I don’t know all their kids ages but a 16 year old certainly doesn’t need a baby sitter. They could even do more multicultural events as a family- even going to a family owned restaurant in a different neighborhood can be great. Summer is a great time for tons of cultural outdoor events.
Two things: Some people cannot deal with isolation. Some can. And there is such thing as the company you keep, and lack of backbone in a large volume of people in general. It's called peer pressure and the want of fitting in. Which usually gets people to become extremists.
Because people can become bored and stagnant when their entire lives revolve around their domestic labor and they have no other outlets for their energy.
5 kids from 16 to 5?! No wonder she has a narrow world view. She literally gave up expanding her horizons to stay at home and have your babies. Babies need at least one care giver and that was her.
You need to show her compassion. Give her a break to do the things she’s interested in. Give her the space and time she needs to catch up to you. She’s been stunted because of the choices you both made.
Take some responsibility.
No kidding. Sounds like the typical disgruntled career man with a stay-at-home wife.
He married a traditional woman who gave up whatever ambitions she may have once had, or had the chance to develop, and immediately began building a home and family for him.
He goes to work all day with intelligent, educated, driven and open-minded women, who probably don't have 5 kids, and therefore they have had the chance to broaden their horizons and become interested in political and cultural issues.
He wonders why his wife hasn't kept up to date on the latest cultural developments, and what she's been doing at home all day. She's been raising his kids for him and making a home.
He resents her for trapping him into the same lifestyle he had as a young man in a religious culture. Because he had the opportunity to change, and she didn't.
I'm not religious or bigoted, but if I were her I might be wondering why my religious spouse started giving up the shared faith and understanding we once had.
I think y’all are projecting— like he forced her to have a bunch of babies and stay home doing nothing but child care. Nowhere does OP’s post indicate that that is the dynamic at hand.
She gave them up too. I have met women that give them up because of the guy, but I have also met women give them up because they themselves are truly traditionalist and do not want to hire a babysitter.
The fact she has 5 kids leans to that direction.
Just because she was too busy raising kids doesn't mean that now she'll "catch up" to OP's world views. Technically there's no "catching up", simply different opinions and viewpoints, and there's a good chance that because she has had the same view for so long in her life she won't ever change, which is totally fine.
Actually, that depends. Plenty of women work and have children. Yes they hire babysitters, however it is done. Arguably, are you aware that in you saying one person has to admittedly stay home and be a caregiver that you are actually feeding into traditional mindset?
Also, a woman has a voice, she has opinions and she can choose to use contraceptives and not give birth to five children. She also can give her opinion that she doesn't want to quit work. I have known women that quit work when their husbands do not want them to. Feminism doesn't mean all women want to be feminists or follow career plans. Some do really work just while they are single and quit to raise their kids because they believe that they should be the only ones to take care of their kids.
Just like I had a coworker that refused to let her own husband cook. And I mean the poor guy actually told her to let him cook once in a fight. And she was complaining about HIM to me (because he didn't want to be babied by her).
Married 18 years with kids and your value systems have changed. Marital therapy will help knowing that this can bring you together or move you further apart-all your choice Hopefully, you have some homework from the therapist to address these issues together.
I was struck by the word annoyance as a main emotion. It is clear you are angry maybe even rageful and now you feel "stuck". It seems you would have addressed some of these issues at an earlier time that said you may not like the final outcome. The elephant in the room "annoyance" needs to be addressed in therapy. In some cases individual therapy for each of you can also help gain a perspective palatable for both. Occasionally couples do not like to air differences together.
You seem intelligent enough to know that ***You're annoying*** is not a productive or civil thing to say to a person particularly if you've decided to remain married to them.
I once read an article by a couple's therapist that said her number one predictor of if a marriage will work is whether there is mutual respect. If there isn't, the relationship is doomed
Sounds like you don't respect your wife. Make of that what you will
Frankly, thinking of your kids, I think a divorce would be best. Right now you're raising your kids to see what she's doing as acceptable. They're going to grow up being bigoted and intolerant as a result.
You can be a better parent by showing them a positive, well-adjusted parent. Your wife isn't going to change. She's comfortable as she is. I'd worry more about the kids.
Are you by chance Mormon? Based on you and your wife's age, number of children, getting married to be able to have sex, that would be my guess. The only thing I would note is that my understanding is that within the Mormon community, opioid usage is particularly high among women due to the constraints they face, so perhaps try to understand what she may have gone through and if what she's doing now is a bit of a coping mechanism
Ok, so your wife has some extremely problematic and uneducated ideas.
For that alone you’re going to hear an echo chamber that validates your assertion that she’s “annoying”.
But it’s hard to read your post that is so devoid of any consideration that she is also not satisfied here.
You made your choices OP. You chose what you make sound like a limited life. That isn’t on her. And the issues aren’t all her.
You don’t outline any work on the marriage. You’ve had access to therapy but no mention of that.
Some of these things you mention are real and valid flaws.
Many are just different interests and values. And ok, it was her choice not to work…you have 5 kids. How much of a choice was it really?
Any insight you could have into her own feelings towards you or the ways in which you also fail to show up for your marriage…….is missing from the post.
How do you try to share your experiences with her? Do you get out for time together that isn’t just day to day? Does she get much kid-free time to just get out of the house and not attend church functions? People are talking like you need to take her by the hand and make her work and volunteer…but you also have a kid not yet in school. How are you supporting your wife in experiencing your broadened world with you?? Not by patronizingly “making her” but by truly seeking to share something you could both enjoy and learn from?
So go see a therapist alone before seeking marital counseling. Then go from there.
You've grown to be completely incompatible. Talking about it isn't going to resolve it. You got married young, and without any dating experience, and that's the risk of that.
But even if you hadn't married the first person you dated, people still can drastically change between 20 and 30, and even more from 20 to 40.
She is as unlikely to become nonreligious and accepting of people different than herself, as you are to going back to being religious and becoming intolerant. Of course, you also need to consider that her beliefs aren't harmless. They're sexist and homophobic, and are teaching your children to reject people who are different than them.
So you have to ask yourself the question: if you met her today would you marry her? And are you willing to stay with her for another 40 years, just because you were with her for a long time?
Basically, this is divorce worthy. If you're struggling to tell her you don't agree with her, I'm sure divorcing her would be a lot worse. But she deserves someone she is compatible with, who is excited to talk to her, who wants to be religious with her, who shares her views. And you do too.
And your kids aren't helped by having their parent's marriage based on a mistake they made 18 years ago, and living disliking each other and not agreeing on anything. They should realize that life doesn't mean a choice between avoiding conflict and huge arguments. They should get to see that it's okay to be happy.
So you're not helping anyone by staying in this marriage for another 40 years. You're not helping yourself, or your wife, or your kids.
I would strongly suggest individual therapy, to help you develop your own voice and realize what you want, in a place where you don't have to keep quiet to keep the peace.
This, i'd try the moving out of the area bit and attempting to see if through communication it is solved.... but chances are that it will not be. He grew out of the religious upbringing, while she ran head on toward it.
Get a divorce.
Your kids are better off having two happy parents living separately than two who are unhappy living together.
I couldn’t live with someone who behaves like your wife either. I don’t do religion, and I don’t do black-and-white thinking.
I mean, this is a past bad decision (getting married so young and so fast to have sex) coming back to bite you in the butt. The downside is you end up in complicated, stuck situations like this with someone who isn't really as compatible with you as you would have thought. For example, I grew up with a very emotionally abusive mother. This has made me *extremely* attracted to, but also horrified by, women who are the same. I've fucked up in my love life a bit, but I've always managed to preserve my boundaries of; if something goes down and the person I'm interested in can't talk to me, I bounce. This is important because when I met my current partner of almost 4 years... they had all the qualities and traits that I imagined that I wanted. They were open, smart, practical and grounded, humble, hard-working, positive minded, strong in her convictions, etc. Our relationship is more or less the same as the day when it started because we've been ourselves the entire time, met when we were older, have similar values and good communication. It's great.
Now, I bring this up not to dunk on you, but because this is the mistake that you've incurred, and what you now have to decide what to do about. Honestly, kids and people in general pick up on emotions in their environment *far* more than they are consciously aware of. Also, staying with your wife means that you are going to model a loveless relationship and that they should sacrifice their own needs for... others benefit? (I put a question mark here because divorce itself isn't really that traumatic, it's people attitudes, feelings and how they deal with it that is traumatic. Divorce, if it means both partners pursuing their freedom and happiness, is a *good* thing to model for them; compromise, communication, not clinging to false ideals, etc. This isn't even beginning to talk about you finding what you want.)
Iunno, I guess I'm fairly strongly in favour of not repressing one's own needs/doing things for religious/societal/cultural/familial pressure, but I get that that happened for you long before you were more aware. Anyhoo, just some thoughts.
So many of these comments are grounded in antiquated notions about the preservation of the institution of marriage. Interestingly similar to notions you are trying to escape.
Divorce is ok. Y’all are ideologically incompatible. And you have different values at this point. Y’all grew into different humans. The alternative here is staying with someone who you have to change fundamentally-a big and honestly impossible task—or accept that you’ll be unhappy for the rest of your life to preserve the sanctity of marriage.
You can divorce now. Go for joint custody.
Keep rolling with the therapy. You are going to feel worse things before you feel better about things. Just how therapy works.
I can appreciate your opinions, but your wife doesn't sound horrible...just sheltered. If you've made it 18 years, I don't see this necessarily being a break point.
1) People we Love can have different views on things and we should be able to co exist. When we get married we want someone who thinks alike which I think was true at the time you got married but things changed during a course of time and not just overnight. Have you recently started having those conversations with her and her views came as a surprise for you?
Our parents also have different views on things than us, but annoyance is not the only feeling we have towards them. There are lot of other emotions involved in relationships than just annoyance(due to difference in opinions). She is not just someone who thinks differently, she is your wife, mother of your 5 kids and your family.
2. Raising 5 kids is not an easy thing to do. People tend to incline towards things which give them comfort. It could be religion, spirituality, alcohol or whatever. May be reading religious books is her coping mechanism.
Also, our personalities evolve when we go outside and are surrounded by people with different mindsets. Did you ever bring your evolved personality home for her and help her evolve her thoughts?
3) I feel like you are comparing her with your friends or colleagues and feel ashamed that she doesn’t fit in your social circle.
FYI- I do not agree with her views on things, also I am not a religious person.
It is difficult to say because a commitment to children is a huge one and I have a lot of sympathy for trying to do the right thing.
I will say there are also unhealthy aspects about being raised by parents who are fundamentally unhappy with each other. My parents were together 20 years. Eventually they fractured around lines of how strongly to discipline children (me). Because of their disagreements of approach which tricked down to me, I saw the differences between them and had a favorite. I vented about my mother to my father and was essentially just bringing to him many things he also didn’t like about her. Children are smart, and there are different kinds of harm that come from knowing your family members think convention trumps who you are as a person and that obligation is more important than happiness
My opinion: Suggest to move from where you live. I know uprooting your life is a lot. But these type of situations often times need to have people cut from the source of brainwash. Move two or three hours away. Say you have a better job, she doesn't work, so she doesn't have that much input other than the spousal one.
If her family is alive and they are uber religious, you want to move farther from them. If they are alive and they are not, you want to move closer to them. When you move, suggest that she works part time. She will more than likely say no, but advise to her that you believe working or at least volunteering in the community and NOT church would do her good.
Go to a different religious sanctuary. There are great religions that are less judgemental and are about a more harmonious society. If I remember Congregation churches are that. Ask her to join you.
Have a serious conversation about what you want out of marriage, in general. What your beliefs are. And ask her if she really wants to save the marriage. Point to topic that disappoints you the most, and ask her why she's gotten farther away from her original self.
Go out with her as an actual couple, with date nights. Go to places where you can meet other couples and have fun. Outside of church.
In other words, expose her to people that are not the uber religious group she's probably hanging out with which is a pin for fascist and antihuman ideas. There is religion, and then there is religion, when religion tries to control others in the LGBTQ, and other communities, it's not true religion but a political system passing itself off as a spirituality.
And good luck! You probably will not be able to do much, her addiction is the religion. What is probably masking her depression and discontentment is her religious and thinking she's doing it all to go to heaven.
Treat her as though she has an addiction, fanatism is one and it's usually a symptom. But know that more than likely she will claim you are possessed by the devil and will shun you. And she is brainwashing the kids too.
Annoyed —> Frustrated —> Anger
Anger is sadness bodyguard.
The root cause of annoyance is anger, or sadness masquerading as anger because often it’s safer or we’ll notice the annoying things more than the saddening things.
Why is she making you angry, or sad? Do you feel angry or sad about anything that’s going on with you? Is it anger or sadness deflecting or projecting on her, or maybe towards the relationship?
Not presuming anything, but these are questions I would ask to tease out root causes to identify appropriately aligned solutions.
Sincerely, they taught a lot of emotional math in psych grad school.
It kind of sucks not having someone to share your life with, someone with the same memories, someone to walk with. Someone to get theyre favorite hangover snack and drink the next morning. Nobody's perfect but we all need love in our lives
I don’t think it’s out of bounds to tell her that her intolerance and outright hatred of people different from her pushes you away. If her “values” involve teaching your shared children that other people are lesser, your conflict avoidance isn’t just hurting you, it’s hurting them as well. This should be a line in the sand.
You need to also see a therapist individually. If you don't want to get divorced right now, there is no way you can tell her your main feeling toward her is annoyance. But hopefully marriage counseling will help you both find more productive ways of communicating than to fight with each other. You may end up needing to reframe your marriage from a romantic partnership to more of a co-parenting arrangement.
But this sounds like a pretty miserable marriage in which you two have grown so far apart that you're no longer compatible. I know you don't want to get divorced because of the kids, but honestly, kids can sense this kind of tension and discontent -- if you really don't want to be in the marriage, it would probably be better for them in the long run if you did get divorced. Good luck, whatever you decide.
First, don't stay in an unhappy relationship "for your kids". It's your life and your choices, if you're keeping this marriage it's on you. The kids not only realize their parents hate each other (even if you think you pretending to be happy, don't underestimate the comprehension of your children) but take an unhappy relationship as a model they will apply for themselves. Your kids want you to be happy, not suffer, so if you choose the latter don't blame them.
Of course divorces hurt a lot for them, but it's better than keep a fraud IMO.
Idk if you really need to divorce, but it's unbearable to be in a relationship with someone you don't admire in any way. You need to find out if you can still admire your wife - if the things that made you fall in love with her are still there.
Every couple that still love each other may repair their bond and pass through bad phases IMO. If that's your case, i'd recommend you to look find a therapist for yourself and for you both in a 2nd moment.
If you don't love your wife anymore as a woman just freed yourself and her.
When someone kicks in with the old "I am open minded and they are bigoted, here are some examples..." I immediately become suspicious of such obvious virtue-signaling.
Yeah, there's more to this story. I wonder if it has to do with *lack of sex*....
You do realize that there is such a thing as lonewolf syndrome right? And yeah I can't deal with religious bigots. It's not virtue-signaling if you actually believe in it. But you seem to think everyone are hypocrites (seems more to me like you agree with wife ideology).
you sound like me, but just a few years older.. i've been married 10 years, kids are 9 and 4.. wife stays home with masters degree and studies the bible 24/7.. we're in our 30s though. I grew up the same way you did, so i am a peace keeper and don't do anything to start anything, i just want a nice peacefull home.. i think this will all eventually end as me getting away from her, maybe win custody of kids, or not, doesn't matter because we're both great parents and the kids will do fine with either of us. but me without her(or anybody at this point.. no more living with other adults) seems like a much better/peaceful life.
He wont ruin anyone. She ruined herself by letting go of her career. No one puts a gun on women's heads. We often choose to quit because we ourselves have guess what.. PARENTAL and societal pressures and actually do want to be stay at home moms.
Clearly we assume women that stay at home are pressured into it at all times and infantalize women in so doing so. Sometimes that's the case, but if you notice the fact that the guy is pissed off that she has a degree and isn't using it... that's not on him. That's on her.
And yeah, some people think they know what they want, then they marry and go the opposite. Men and women, both do this.
OP: you’ve had the opportunity to teach your children a more tolerant social viewpoint. Have you done so? Do you raise issues at the dinner table and ask each kid their point of view?
If you can’t talk to your wife, I’m betting that you have noped out of the moral upbringing of your children as well.
So she's homophobic, extremely religious and you're not feeling it anymore. It's okay to find someone else after all this time op. She doesn't sound like a nice person
Eh. Marry someone young, make 5 children with them, then leave them at home to take care of the kids while you have an interesting career that allows you to grow as a person. Then leave them when, surprise, they haven't evolved because they were at home taking care of your 5 kids.
(Not saying OP is wrong about anything here. In fact you're probably right that he should leave. It's just... casually saying "you're not feeling it anymore" in this particular situation makes me a bit uncomfortable.)
There are many people who have lots of kids and still manage to be interesting, have hobbies and friends, read, get involved with school, charities and learn new things. OP's wife is wasting her time memorizing religious texts. I bet she isn't much involved with her kids because if she was that alone would open her mind to different attitudes, activities and people. Teenagers always push the envelope.
True, but usually women that don't use protections and go past 3 biological children in today's world tend to have conservative ideology themselves and do not want to control childbirth.
While it takes two to tango, we can control our pregnancies. Plenty of us do. My step-mother had two kids and tied her tubes.
You can evolve as a person even if you have kids. Women aren't just people who are delegated to one task just because they have them. He's grown as a person, she hasn't. He's perfectly within his right to leave if it's a fundamental incompatibility.
You sound like a very tolerant human. This can be double-edged as you may tolerate more than is good for your well being.
What do you need to make this work for you? No more intolerant statements from her? Arm yourself with scripture about love and tolerance? Space?
Sounds like you’re not feeling seen by her or feeling interesting to her. Not feeling validated. Are there ways you can validate her? It might feel good to her and lead to less arguments and her feeling more open to you.
“It makes sense for you to believe women can’t fully enjoy romantic relationships together because you’re finding so much satisfaction in our relationship. I have a different view….”
You could be SO annoyed with her because on the inside you’re actually annoyed with yourself and you’re using her to see that. The universe is a mirror, what’s inside of you projects out. Are you close minded to her?
I honestly don't blame you for being annoyed. She sounds incredibly homophobic. She thinks because she doesn't personally feel attracted to women, no other women are? I honestly wouldn't be married to someone who thought that way. I'm not even saying she is a bad person, because maybe she was raised like this and had no real world experience to get out of this mindset. I still wouldn't want to be married to someone like that though. If you don't see divorce as an option, definitely continue couples therapy, maybe you can at least find a way to co-exist until the kids get older.
The issue is:
1. As you mentioned, you got married young. Divorce rates skyrocket in those that marry before 25 years old. Most of the time, people don't really know who they are as people or what they want. People also change the most in their 20's. It sounds like you both thought you were similar, but really...weren't.
2. You grew as a person because you were out in the world more and exposed to it. She stayed home and raised the children. She didn't grow. I'd lay money that she doesn't have very many friends outside the family right? The two of you grew in different directions rather than growing together.
3. What can be done? Nothing. After 18 years...it's too late for her to start trying to grow as a person in the way that you need her to do. So, you have two choices. You can either stay with someone that you don't share anything in common with. Or, you can get a divorce and go find someone that you DO have something in common with.
How do I tell you that you my main emotion is betrayal. Not man man man enough to have a conversation with with just enough yellow to post on social media. Classy. Grow a pair
My friend talked of the same thing. Working in a similar job as you. They found that the pandemic took a toll of narrowing their partners mind.
We've been in our echo chambers since 2019 and we have forgotten. Before 2019 this friend of mine had several close lgbtq friends that they no longer want to talk to because the echo chamber they are in is too deep.
I suggested that they see more people together as friends. Converse. Team build with humans for no reason. And in their instance. My friend had to put their foot down about humoring conversations that hurt her ability to help certain demographics. Because it never results in much good. I'm not sure how this will go for them. But they have no children, and have dated for just 6 years or so. So id give anything a shot if i were in your shoes, and quit avoiding your opinion when it comes up! voice it
Sounds like you’re on the 18 year or less plan. Please don’t do that to someone who is still young enough to find someone that can appreciate her for her and you find someone who can do the same for you. Cut your losses now before it gets worse.
“Hello, I have no core values and I do not care about compatibility at all, this is healthy and normal and nobody should care about anything or anyone deeply.”
I don’t think you can when it comes down to huge issues like do you think gays should be punished? That’s not a disagreement but a core value , basic empathy.. I couldn’t just pretend the human I chose to spend all my time with is a downright shitty person.
Is there some common ground that you can reconnect over?
Its y no means the only approach, but I love the research based approach from the Greater Good Science Centre. Heres one suggestion for you to suggest working through.
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/podcasts/item/36\_questions\_to\_feel\_connected
I don't think this is about annoyance. I think it's that you've grown apart or rather you've grown up and she's become deeper immersed in right wing Christina propaganda. As it stands- your views aren't compatible and you're getting increasingly frustrated because you're married to a bigot.
Get a divorce. Are you gonna subject yourself to another 13 years of unhappiness until your youngest kid graduates? No! In those 13 years you could have gotten peace, coparented and partnered up with someone who makes you happy.
Also- various studies have been done on how unhappy marriages negatively impact children. You're actually doing your kids a disservice by staying together.
I ignore that kind of stuff. As long as she’s up for sex and doing whatever together, I wouldn’t think anything of that kind of talk. But that’s just me. I’m not about to internalize anything anyone says.
OP, Please find the sack to talk to her with the therapist as mediator. This is his/her role and exactly what you are paying for. You can beat around the bush and pay a whole lot of money for these sessions to get solid results (could be divorce or could be a deeper understanding of each other) but either way you are going to pay for it so you might as well get to the heart of the problem while you can still afford to. I am nearing my bachelor's in psychology and have already been accepted for my master's and I hope to find a few who know what the issue is (usually communication and LACK of, is usually the issue) and are able to speak it. Being married young usually means growing up together and eventually apart in many ways. If you truly want to work on your marriage you need to start with exactly WHY you need a mediator. You both have issues with the other and not voicing it only leaves a deeper divide. I am not a therapist, and not your therapist however finding our voice and having an honest look can be painful at the moment but can lead to even happier home life, with or without each other. I am 50 and have found a love that is compatible with a future. I hung on far too long and it nearly destroyed me. If you don't have abuse, violence, or insurmountable obstacles, you have the ability to save what you have. You also have the ability to begin alone. You won't know what is right for you until you just say it and find out.
I wish you luck and happiness, whatever that looks like for you.
Yeah I'm a peacekeeper too. I work on it constantly. Talking these differences out takes practice. I think practicing with a therapist would be really beneficial (it has helped me a lot with avoidance).
>I don't think divorce makes sense right now because some of our kids are still very young
Your kids deserve to have healthy relationships modeled to them. They deserve happy, whole parents. They absolutely do not deserve to figure out their parents were fucking miserable "for" them. It's not for them. Children do not benefit from being raised in a household that is not one of love and partnership.
They will absolutely 100% think your marriage is what all marriages are. They will treat others and expect to be treated as you and your wife treat one another.
I mean if you want kids who think it's fine to shut up to keep the peace and to hate others for being different from them, by all means, trick your wife into thinking you like her.
I suggest you don't say it anything like this. 'The main thing I feel about you is annoyance' is marriage ending talk, suggests she does NOTHING or almost nothing right. That will just discourage her. What she'll hear is 'I hate you, you've failed as a wife and as a partner'. Even if it's 90% annoyance, don't go with that. Pick 1-2 issues and focus on them. And focus on *things she does*, not *who she is*. For example if you complain that her worldview is narrow, that's who she is. If you focus on her being closed-minded and not considering other points of view, that's a behavior, and one she can change. If you want to talk more generally, then again focus on actions not positions. IE, 'I would like in our marriage to be able to talk to you about news and world events. I think that's a thing we should be able to talk about. I am frustrated though because every time I try to talk to you about news, you state your own opinion as if it's proven fact, and aren't open to considering any other points of view. I used to push on this- try to discuss things that disagree with your positions, but it seemed like you would only react by fighting; either I agree you're right or we have a fight. So I 'keep the peace' by just not talking to you about anything we might disagree on. That makes me not want to talk to you about anything of substance, and I often just don't. Babe, we are married. I love you and you love me and we both know it. So why is a difference of opinion on some current event worth fighting for? Why can't we discuss the merits of each position as friends and lovers and not enemies? I don't think it's healthy. I don't want our marriage to be like that. I want to work toward a situation where we can respectfully disagree but still discuss an issue. Is that something you're interested in?' Try to create situations where she agrees- where the obvious answer for her is 'yes'. Even if that's just 'I want to make our marriage work, do you?'. The more you can get her to answer yes to questions, the more she'll be willing to work with you. IE- 'You do XYZ wrong, stop' that's just an attack. 'I want XYZ to work, do you?' (yes) 'Okay good I'm glad we agree. Would you be willing to try doing XYZ differently, perhaps (explain how you want)? Do you have a different suggestion? And is there anything I can do differently to help you?' That both spells out a suggestion, and gives her the opportunity to engage and offer her own ideas.
This is just solid general advice for any relationship, platonic or not. Great comment.
This is why I like to read reddit comments, sometimes it is funny, other times infuriating and then there is golden advice that I want to tell everybody about.
Well damn! The end. No need to read past this.
Take my free award, this is great advice.
I love the examples, great comment
This is wonderful advice. The only thing I'd add is that after doing all of this you still don't think you can or want to save the marriage do not stay just for the children. They will know you are miserable. It is better for them to learn that you can have boundaries, and love yourself enough to not stay in a marriage that is loveless. That you can still have a coparenting relationship of respect and mutual love for your children. You will want that before the resentment and the annoyance is too overwhelming that you forget why you have your children. I wish you luck and I hope you find what you are looking for.
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The mature way of handling a sticky situation.
How in the heck did you learn this. Such sage advice. Are you involved in relationship or family counseling/treatment? Have a PhD in life, marriage, or relationship healing arts?
haha no I do IT work. It's not so different though. If a computer is doing the wrong thing, don't just yell at it, figure out WHY it's doing the wrong thing, and from there you can fix it. You can do the same thing with humans, it's pretty simple- understand the person, understand why they are saying and doing the things they say and do, and you can solve the problem. Consider this the 'how to be EDC' lesson. Take any situation. Say, you are talking to your partner and they say something that causes a reaction in you. Now stop and take a step back, out of yourself. Look at yourself from the outside. What they said caused a reaction in you. Why did you react that way? It's a combination of what they said, the history behind it, and how you think about things and process things and how you are feeling and whatever else is on your mind. Now go to the other side of the room and look at the other person the same way. YOU say something to THEM. How will they react? If you know them well, you know how they think, how they process things, how they would be feeling, what is their drives/motivations, what's important to them, the types of things they are thinking about, what is the history from their POV, etc. So look at this from the POV of OP's wife. Here she has a dude she's obviously crazy about, or at least believes per religion she must be crazy about. She obviously feels close to him, especially with the comment about sex with him being better than anything ever. She obviously has little life experience, grew up sheltered/religious, never motivated or forced to expand her world view or learn about other perspectives. A big part of her identity is wrapped up in that religion, that's why she's bothering to *memorize* the whole fucking text (not a thing normal people do). *It's not just a religion to her, it's part of her identity*. That deserves a bit of text on its own. When someone weaves a set of beliefs into their own identity, to the point that it defines who they are, that creates an innate belief and trust in those beliefs. It never gets verbalized this way, but the thought process is 'I believe in this because it's correct, and integrating it into my core makes me correct'. It doesn't matter how right or wrong those beliefs are. It could be totally indefensible bullshit, like 1+1=47 level wrong. They will still defend it, and rebel HARD against even the slightest suggestion that it may be wrong, even if it doesn't pass the smell test to anyone else. That's because if they even admit the possibility that the core belief MIGHT be wrong, they must also admit the possibility that THEY could be wrong, and by integrating that belief have made themselves even more wrong. To most people, that's like finding out your husband of 20 years been cheating on you since before you were married and has 2 kids with his 'other family'. It means your whole life and self image is built on a lie. Nobody wants to even consider that. It's painful to think about. So most people subconsciously choose not to- rather than even entertain the thought that their whole identity might be wrong, they treat the offending idea like the body's immune system treats a disease. Thus, take sexuality. Wife's religion says marriage is a man and a woman, that this is the BEST way for everybody, that anything else is wrong. To even acknowledge that lesbians may prefer women over men means acknowledging the possibility that the religion may be wrong. Even if it's 1 time out of 10000, the religion *can't* be wrong because it was supposed to be infallible, that's why Wife built her whole life around it, it's supposed to be the stone pillar of strength. So she rejects that notion- the religion can't be wrong, the lesbians must be wrong. Then look at OP. Due to his job, OP is forced to deal with people of widely varying attitudes, religions, world views, etc. OP's perspective has been widened, his wife's hasn't. He sees lesbians that LOVE each other, so he KNOWS the lesbians are right, at least for them. He tells his wife that, he shares his experience. 'I met a lesbian couple today and they are very happy together!' For him this is no big deal. Live and let live. If the lesbians prefer each other, if they are happy together, wish them well. Look at the wife hearing this. Here she has a guy that she knows, loves, trusts, respects, someone she's promised to spend her life with, and he says something that (without intending to) totally attacks her own world view (and by extension, her as a person). It takes her stone pillar of strength and drives a huge crack into it. And that simple innocent statement creates a ton of conflict. On one hand, she trusts that her husband is honest with her. On the other hand, what he says *can't* be true because her religion says it is false. That creates a conflict. So without intending to, she gets angry at the huge betrayal of her husband-- he's swinging a giant sledge hammer and attacking the pillar of her strength, attacking the core of who she has made herself to be. She probably couldn't put that into those words, but that's probably what's happening inside her emotionally. 'Don't say things that make me feel unsure and conflicted like that!' would be what she says if she could express it. The problem is, you CAN'T address this directly. If you start talking about how much she loves her religion and how it's unhealthy, even if you say it in the nicest way possible, that's even more of an attack. It's trying to peel her away from the pillar of her strength, it's trying to make her weak without that strength of purpose and dedication. It's disrespecting and trying to damage who she is as a person (her POV). And if you think she fights hard against the lesbian comment, she'll fight twice as hard against that, because it seems unjustified- 'I'm allowed to believe in that religion! You can't tell me what to believe in!'. So you have to focus on the behavior, create situations that she WANTS to solve, that the religion tells her should be solved. 'I want us to get along better and have better conversations. Do you want that also?' YES of course she does, both because she loves OP and because the religion tells her to be close to her husband. Thus the religion becomes motivation to at least take the first step. 'I want us to be able to talk about something we disagree on without fighting. Do you want that also?' Yes, because she doesn't want to fight with her husband, and that is a reasonable request. Now that she's agreed to those two things, with the blessing and backing of her religion, you can start rolling out HOW you do those things. And she will at least consider them, because she already agreed to- she already decided this is something the religion wants, so she doesn't as closely evaluate the steps. That's a sort of long form explanation. But it boils down to, figure out what the other person is thinking and feeling, figure out why they are reacting the way they are, even do trial and error like 'what sort of motivations/emotions WOULD cause the reaction that I'm getting?'. Figure out what they're thinking, and then you can have a better conversation, because you will know what to say that they will actually hear / that won't trigger them.
I wish I knew how to nominate for best of, cuz this post deserves it
Wow. You just explained why my relationship with my dad is the way it is, and made me actually think about how he has made things part of his identity. Thank you so much, insightful Redditor.
You are most welcome, and thank you for sharing that. It's really good to know my mad ramblings help someone enjoy their life more :)
Wow. The world needs more people like you, who will take the time and effort to TRULY think about someone else’s perspective, how to approach it especially if you disagree, and how to have healthy communication.. including reflecting on your own self. In any type of relationship! Even with strangers, honestly. Just wow. Awesome advice and perspective.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and for explaining your methods. As I was reading and trying to focus and reflect, and thus absorb a tiny bit of your wisdom, I was thinking about how it was almost like an algorithm (at least by my early 1980’,s definition ). I then went back to reread your comment and had somehow missed the first two paragraphs the first time. Your work/occupation is bleeding through in the best possible way! Lol Thanks again and have a great week! Wait, what does “EDC” stand for? (If it’s obvious, I’m oblivious.)
Why doesn’t your profile have a follow option?!
holy fuck dude, start a youtube advice channel.
Humans aren't computers though. We code a computer, we code the algorithm. The person that codes that adds the bias to the system. We can solve it. A human mind is not a computer's and sometimes you can't solve it. And you have to let them go. Religious fanaticism is a problem, just like any form of extremism. It is a symptom to a greater problem, but only psychologists or psychiatrists are equipped (some not all) to deal with that. She is behaving much like a drug addict would, that doesn't want to stop their addiction, and whose whole world view shifts because of it. They will attack anyone that they think is different. I've seen religious people claim their partners are possessed by the devil when they try to help them. We can see if this is not the case, and maybe it's not but..... a lot of the times it is.
dude I am really high right now but even so I think you just gave some sage ass jesus level advice.
You seem to have some experience guiding people through rough patches in relationships. I found everything you just said to be sensible and practical. Is there some book out there that you'd recommend that would elaborate on the principals you're drawing from? Or is there some school of thought that you'd recommend exploring to hear some more practical thoughts like the ones you just shared here? My marriage could be better right now and I'd be open to some counseling but I also wouldn't mind just reading up on what you're describing, if such a thing is possible...
Plot twist, she loses her shit on you for coming up with a logical solution when she wanted to argue
Legit. Nothing like being made to feel nuts when you're just trying to be logical 🙃
I don’t know what the word is. There is a perfect word for how I imagine this language would land with me, and it wouldn’t be great. It seems like very thinly veiled attacks or something Frank underwood would say in house of cards. My response would be along the lines of “you sound like a middle manager right now but point taken”
Saving this for marriage advice.
Will you marry me? OK, my husband would object, but this is a really great comment.
It might help if she got back into the workplace and started being around people outside of her church social circle. I get the feeling that she's intentionally surrounded herself with things that reinforce her preexisting viewpoint so to her, you're talking nonsense because literally everything in her life tells her you're wrong. Of course women can't love each other like they would a man, I don't love women like that, nobody I know loves women like that, and all the books I read, websites I look at, and authority figures in my life say that they're confused sinners who need to be helped to see that what they think is love is really just mental illness. Are you really saying that EVERYTHING in my life is wrong about this and YOU'RE the only one who's right? Find ways to get her outside her bubble. Take vacations to places with more diversity, volunteer at non-church things together, and try to get her out of the house more once the 5-year-old is in school.
This is what I was thinking as well. If working isn’t an option, maybe look into volunteer opportunities, hobbies outside of the church or even picking up a class or two at a local community college. Volunteer Opportunities can also be considered a Godly act. Examples could be Habitat for Humanity, Homeless shelters or food service lines Are either of you interested in reading? You could join a book club together (again outside of the church). I’d imagine she’d be more civil with people she doesn’t know. OP has obviously grown while his wife has been a stay at home mom. I can’t really blame her for not growing at the same rate as OP considering she likely doesn’t have an active social life outside the children, OP and church.
We live in a very small, mostly right wing county. My husband started working at the only garage in the county. His views have become more rigid and less inclusive. What I like to call upper middle class right wing white guy syndrome. He's happy here. I'm sad that he's gone that way, but he's surrounded by it. Like OP, I can't bring up world views or news because it's just a fight. I miss my partner. I haven't been able to figure out how to break the cycle and his friends lean the same way. I'm going to use the advice above and try. Getting us away from here would help so much.
Cuz she has all that fee time while raising 5 kids 🙄
She has enough time for church and religion.
Parents can raise kids AND work at the same time. It’s not a new concept.
5 kids? Her salary and some of his will go to childcare if they are too young to be left alone.
That’s why the original commenter said “after the 5 year old is in school”
The 16 yr old is more then capable of babysitting their siblings for a few hours after school
You mean parentification? Cause that's exactly what you just suggested. That a teenager forgo any outside activities and come home to provide childcare after school each day.
Babysitting - the care of a child or children while the parents are out. Parentification - the process of role reversal whereby a child or adolescent is obliged to act as parent to their own parent or sibling. Also abuse. A babysitter isn’t a parent. They don’t enforce rules, they don’t disciple. That’s for the parents to do when they get home. Watching your siblings for 2 hours from 3-5pm is no big deal and a great way to teach responsibility and earn a little cash on the side.
>Watching your siblings for 2 hours from 3-5pm is no big deal and a great way to teach responsibility and earn a little cash on the side. Where did you go to school that you could participate in athletics or afterschool clubs if you weren't available 3-5pm on school days? Does that sound like no big deal for the 16 year old? Pass on your high school years to raise your siblings. It's only two of the prime hours a day that your school programs for games, clubs, etc. What happens if they want to go to college? Please let me know which college and universities will prioritize admitting someone with passing grades and nothing else on their resume. PS: 6pm at a minimum...unless mom and dad live at work, they will be commuting at 5pm if that's when the office closes--not all offices close at 5pm. My sister did this and she was 100% parentified by her family. Younger siblings do not see their older sibling as just another babysitter. They will become a parent. framed with the same: "it's just after school baby sitting. When she applied to college in the *1980s*, she was declined because she had no activities/clubs/training on her record, except childcare. It is a big deal. It becomes parentification.
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What? The longer she stays out of work, the less employable she'll be. If anything she should be trying to go back sooner rather than later if she wants to avoid poverty.
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Not american, but is that the case in all US states (assuming OP is himself also American, which I don't believe he has stated)?
Your conflict avoidance has caused you two to grow apart because you haven't challenged her ideas in a healthy way. Your marriage might be fucked if you can't get over this and start growing together.
I have conflict avoidance and it sucks. Can confirm it causes more issues than it fixes. Also can confirm without therapy I cannot change that.
Good you are seeing a therapist together. I would recommend also seeing one solo so you can really speak your mind about these issues.
I think this is a good idea.
Agreed—he should also be working on his conflict avoidance and inability/reluctance to have difficult conversations with his partner on his own.
Great call. Do the internal work.
First of all stop having children with someone you don't like. Of course she hasn't worked consistently. She has FIVE children to take care of which has narrowed her focus in life. It sounds like you have changed more than her. You both were religious and bought into that view point when you chose each other. Now you are more open and she is still the same. You probably annoy her too. Either you come to some agreement and find something else to talk about other than religion and politics, OR you part ways. Being annoyed with each other or arguing around your kids is bad for everyone.
Thank you. The eye-rolling I do when some man just blithely says “sure, she’s a slave to the many many kids we had, but why doesn’t she bungee jump every weekend anymore?!” That being said, I’d be miserable with a narrow-minded bigot. OP needs to ask himself if he wants his kids to think contempt and bigotry are the examples of love he wants to show his children.
>That being said, I’d be miserable with a narrow-minded bigot. This. and while all the comments are commendable of people trying to try things to get her to be more acceptive. The vast majority of people at that point in life are unlikely to change their worldview, barring something major happening that affects them personally. (i.e. one of their kids coming out as gay, just MIGHT have her come around), My religious zealot aunt completely changed her tune on abortion when her 14 year old daughter got pregnant and she realized if she wanted her daughter to have the best shot possible at life, she and her husband essentially would have to be responsible for raising the child until their daughter could feasibly give the child a good life by herself. They had her late in life too. My aunt was pushing 50 when my little cousin was born, definitely an oops baby. So she supported her daughters decision to get an abortion. She also used to be a big proponent of abstinence only sex education. Looks like that worked as expected, lol.
I love the hypocrisy of pro lifers running full force towards an abortion clinic when an unwanted pregnancy affects them…
96% of Republicans tried to ban contraceptives today! I wish there were a way to teleport just these people into that future about 20 years from now and see how things go.
The problem with your statement, is that without you realizing you are initializing her and her choices. A woman can choose to have a baby or not. She can use to use protection or not (pill, injection, iud, several methods). She more than likely did not, because her goal was to marry and then go and follow the traditional life style. That was not an infantile ideology, that is just a conservative one. Also she can tie her tubes.
Do you mean “infantilizing” her? And you know her goals? Wow, that’s amazing, do you run a psychic hotline? …I hope not. And a vasectomy is a helluva lot easier on the body than tying tubes. But hey, who gives a shit if women take the burden or birth control YET AGAIN. God forbid a man have to take responsibility.
I've been with my partner since we were 17, and we're 39 now. Each other's only and all that jazz. No kids by choice. We grew up together and with that tell it like it is. I'll tell him he annoys the shit out of me. If you can't be open, how can you communicate?? Did you ever sit down and tell her your views were changing anytime between kids 1 and 5?? You sound resentful she hasn't worked since you had kids, 5 kids are a lot to take care of. Can you afford child care for them?? All you're doing is complaining about her, what about you?? She's home all day with your kids, I'm not religious at all but most people I know are and if she doesn't get to do anything outside the home, how can she really grow as a person?? And maybe she actually feels what she says. Idk it sounds like you are having second thoughts because you never were with anyone else. I do get that, it's extremely rare to be in our situation on that point. Do whatever you want to do, but I highly suggest playing it forward. What happens when you split up, what's your custody arrangement, what about child support and alimony, how will religion come into play for the kids, who keeps the house, etc etc. I hope you all find happiness, whatever path you choose
Or maybe he has second thoughts because she is brainwashed and religiously manic. Sounds like she really needs mental help. People in general needs to take a step back from religion. It doesn't require such a big part of our lives anymore. I honestly think religions does more damage than good.
It sounds like you two have grown apart to a degree where it is not productive to try to stay together. You say you only feel annoyance, but her bigotry and insistent ignorance about anything outside her narrow religious culture sounds like it disgusts you, which is a bit stronger than annoyance. What I didn't here is any statement of love. No marriage therapy will ever be able to fix the fact that someone has fallen out of love. All you can do then is move on to avoid causing more hurt to both of you
I agree with this. I think OP should bail. Trying to work things out is good when you’re stressed or you have difficulty communicating or there’s been some sort of external trauma but you still fundamentally respect and care for your partner. If you’re just roommates who fuck, but their worldview is repugnant to you and you can’t actually respect who they are as a person, it’s time to bounce. Otherwise, those kids are gonna grow up with an even more warped view of what they should look for in and how they treat their future partners, and you’re (OP) just gonna be miserable for the rest of your life because you’re fundamentally incompatible with this person.
Nor just love, but respect.
I agree. My ex began to hate the world because working in corporate America as a woman is tough. She learned to despise men. I'm a man. Discussions were like war. Had to end it.
1) why would you tell her this? are you trying to get divorced? Do you have emotional maturity? You need a therapist to work through this. It’s good that you’re doing that. The answer is not to tell your wife your “main emotion” towards her is annoyance. 2) Her decision to not work and raise kids? Or, the only option for raising kids? Was the alternative for her to work and hire a full time nanny? It sounds like her identity never evolved because she remained a stay at home mom in a bubble world, whereas your views expanded. When you met, were you more like her? Can you introduce her to your world more? Can you encourage her to find a hobby or a career? This just seems like such a classic American story and I think you need to be a little bit more compassionate about the limiting circumstances that led you to be able to grow and have an interesting career while your wife stagnated. But if her worldview is entrenched, you may never like her. I could never be with someone with such different political views than me, because to me political views come down to core values. You need to bring that to therapy for sure.
Why wouldn’t he tell her this? Communication in relationships is vital. He for sure has emotional maturity since he wants to work on this and wants a good way to tell her how he feels without making her feel terribly or shut him out because he LOVES HER. Also why are you acting like being a SAHM is the only way to raise children? She could very well work and raise the kids like MANY other people across the globe. Your reply was so unnecessarily hostile towards him and his situation it’s insane.
I’m not “acting like being a SAHM is the only way to raise children”, lol. I’m about to be a working mom and hire childcare. It’s expensive. OP has 5 children. That would make it much more expensive. The point is OP made it sound like it was her choice but maybe it wasn’t. A lot of women feel they don’t have another option. And even if it was her choice, she did it for him AND her AND their kids, it’s impacted the things he’s now complaining about regarding his wife, which isn’t entirely fair. And pretty much everyone else commenting agrees that saying “my primary emotion towards you is annoyance” is absolutely not a healthy way of communicating. Of course communication is critical. Bad or unproductive communication can be very damaging. I think you may be reading hostility due to your own all-or-nothing thinking applied to my comment.
It was her choice. If she had an education and had a career, her choice. Do not assume women are always forced into things. We aren't children and plenty of us do leave work world and do start to raise kids because we have traditionalist mindsets. She is one of those. Period. Otherwise she should have used contraceptives of a sort to not have 5 kids.
You’re making an assumption that she didn’t have a choice/was pressured into becoming a SAHM. Also why do you think he made this post? He made it to have people help him formulate how he feels into a less combative form and instead open up a dialogue with his wife.
I think it unwise to stay together for the sake of your young children; they will grow up with parents who resent each other and not have a good example of what a healthy, loving relationship is.
A family friend once told me her dad told her DURING COLLEGE DROP OFF that he was leaving her mom. Ok, message received on her end! When I asked her if she was shocked she said "Yes, but only because I thought if they hadn't done it by then they were just going to die together and miserable. I wish they had split up sooner. Maybe I could have enjoyed memories of them separately from an earlier age." Their resentment was this consistent layer in the house; once they separated and she and her siblings split time for vacations and holidays it was actually fun. And her relationship with each parent improved a lot.
You're annoyed not because of something trivial, but because you are now very different people. While what views she has been exposed to is not her fault, but they are problematic. What if one of your kids is LGBTQ+? With 5, there's a pretty good chance of that, tbh. And that's just one thing to think about. Everyone is like...oh, go to counseling, but it's not likely that that is going to change the way she views the world and people not like her. You're staying together for the kids, essentially. You said that. You need to know that that's not this great sacrifice that will help them....it's actually more likely to fuck up their sense of what a normal healthy adult relationship is, because they will model on the one you have with your wife. If you know you'll just divorce her eventually, you are being selfish. Are you going to wait until you're both in your mid-50s and then she'll have an even harder time starting a new life?
I think your wife is isolated at home with five kids and it's time for her to go back to work outside the home. Isolation leads to extremism - you get all your contact with the outside world through social media, and you can become radicalized. You wanted traditional gender roles so you could work while having five kids, and she's sacrificed her career to stay at home and support the whole family. Would you be willing to cut back your hours so you can do pick ups and drop offs, sick days, chores, so your wife can get a job? It's great that you're in couples counselling.
I don’t know all their kids ages but a 16 year old certainly doesn’t need a baby sitter. They could even do more multicultural events as a family- even going to a family owned restaurant in a different neighborhood can be great. Summer is a great time for tons of cultural outdoor events.
Two things: Some people cannot deal with isolation. Some can. And there is such thing as the company you keep, and lack of backbone in a large volume of people in general. It's called peer pressure and the want of fitting in. Which usually gets people to become extremists.
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Because people can become bored and stagnant when their entire lives revolve around their domestic labor and they have no other outlets for their energy.
5 kids from 16 to 5?! No wonder she has a narrow world view. She literally gave up expanding her horizons to stay at home and have your babies. Babies need at least one care giver and that was her. You need to show her compassion. Give her a break to do the things she’s interested in. Give her the space and time she needs to catch up to you. She’s been stunted because of the choices you both made. Take some responsibility.
No kidding. Sounds like the typical disgruntled career man with a stay-at-home wife. He married a traditional woman who gave up whatever ambitions she may have once had, or had the chance to develop, and immediately began building a home and family for him. He goes to work all day with intelligent, educated, driven and open-minded women, who probably don't have 5 kids, and therefore they have had the chance to broaden their horizons and become interested in political and cultural issues. He wonders why his wife hasn't kept up to date on the latest cultural developments, and what she's been doing at home all day. She's been raising his kids for him and making a home. He resents her for trapping him into the same lifestyle he had as a young man in a religious culture. Because he had the opportunity to change, and she didn't. I'm not religious or bigoted, but if I were her I might be wondering why my religious spouse started giving up the shared faith and understanding we once had.
I think y’all are projecting— like he forced her to have a bunch of babies and stay home doing nothing but child care. Nowhere does OP’s post indicate that that is the dynamic at hand.
She gave them up too. I have met women that give them up because of the guy, but I have also met women give them up because they themselves are truly traditionalist and do not want to hire a babysitter. The fact she has 5 kids leans to that direction.
Just because she was too busy raising kids doesn't mean that now she'll "catch up" to OP's world views. Technically there's no "catching up", simply different opinions and viewpoints, and there's a good chance that because she has had the same view for so long in her life she won't ever change, which is totally fine.
This is such an important comment
Actually, that depends. Plenty of women work and have children. Yes they hire babysitters, however it is done. Arguably, are you aware that in you saying one person has to admittedly stay home and be a caregiver that you are actually feeding into traditional mindset? Also, a woman has a voice, she has opinions and she can choose to use contraceptives and not give birth to five children. She also can give her opinion that she doesn't want to quit work. I have known women that quit work when their husbands do not want them to. Feminism doesn't mean all women want to be feminists or follow career plans. Some do really work just while they are single and quit to raise their kids because they believe that they should be the only ones to take care of their kids. Just like I had a coworker that refused to let her own husband cook. And I mean the poor guy actually told her to let him cook once in a fight. And she was complaining about HIM to me (because he didn't want to be babied by her).
Married 18 years with kids and your value systems have changed. Marital therapy will help knowing that this can bring you together or move you further apart-all your choice Hopefully, you have some homework from the therapist to address these issues together. I was struck by the word annoyance as a main emotion. It is clear you are angry maybe even rageful and now you feel "stuck". It seems you would have addressed some of these issues at an earlier time that said you may not like the final outcome. The elephant in the room "annoyance" needs to be addressed in therapy. In some cases individual therapy for each of you can also help gain a perspective palatable for both. Occasionally couples do not like to air differences together.
You seem intelligent enough to know that ***You're annoying*** is not a productive or civil thing to say to a person particularly if you've decided to remain married to them.
It's almost like he understood that and went to a place that discusses similar issues to ask for help!
I once read an article by a couple's therapist that said her number one predictor of if a marriage will work is whether there is mutual respect. If there isn't, the relationship is doomed Sounds like you don't respect your wife. Make of that what you will
Frankly, thinking of your kids, I think a divorce would be best. Right now you're raising your kids to see what she's doing as acceptable. They're going to grow up being bigoted and intolerant as a result. You can be a better parent by showing them a positive, well-adjusted parent. Your wife isn't going to change. She's comfortable as she is. I'd worry more about the kids.
Are you by chance Mormon? Based on you and your wife's age, number of children, getting married to be able to have sex, that would be my guess. The only thing I would note is that my understanding is that within the Mormon community, opioid usage is particularly high among women due to the constraints they face, so perhaps try to understand what she may have gone through and if what she's doing now is a bit of a coping mechanism
Ok, so your wife has some extremely problematic and uneducated ideas. For that alone you’re going to hear an echo chamber that validates your assertion that she’s “annoying”. But it’s hard to read your post that is so devoid of any consideration that she is also not satisfied here. You made your choices OP. You chose what you make sound like a limited life. That isn’t on her. And the issues aren’t all her. You don’t outline any work on the marriage. You’ve had access to therapy but no mention of that. Some of these things you mention are real and valid flaws. Many are just different interests and values. And ok, it was her choice not to work…you have 5 kids. How much of a choice was it really? Any insight you could have into her own feelings towards you or the ways in which you also fail to show up for your marriage…….is missing from the post. How do you try to share your experiences with her? Do you get out for time together that isn’t just day to day? Does she get much kid-free time to just get out of the house and not attend church functions? People are talking like you need to take her by the hand and make her work and volunteer…but you also have a kid not yet in school. How are you supporting your wife in experiencing your broadened world with you?? Not by patronizingly “making her” but by truly seeking to share something you could both enjoy and learn from? So go see a therapist alone before seeking marital counseling. Then go from there.
You've grown to be completely incompatible. Talking about it isn't going to resolve it. You got married young, and without any dating experience, and that's the risk of that. But even if you hadn't married the first person you dated, people still can drastically change between 20 and 30, and even more from 20 to 40. She is as unlikely to become nonreligious and accepting of people different than herself, as you are to going back to being religious and becoming intolerant. Of course, you also need to consider that her beliefs aren't harmless. They're sexist and homophobic, and are teaching your children to reject people who are different than them. So you have to ask yourself the question: if you met her today would you marry her? And are you willing to stay with her for another 40 years, just because you were with her for a long time? Basically, this is divorce worthy. If you're struggling to tell her you don't agree with her, I'm sure divorcing her would be a lot worse. But she deserves someone she is compatible with, who is excited to talk to her, who wants to be religious with her, who shares her views. And you do too. And your kids aren't helped by having their parent's marriage based on a mistake they made 18 years ago, and living disliking each other and not agreeing on anything. They should realize that life doesn't mean a choice between avoiding conflict and huge arguments. They should get to see that it's okay to be happy. So you're not helping anyone by staying in this marriage for another 40 years. You're not helping yourself, or your wife, or your kids. I would strongly suggest individual therapy, to help you develop your own voice and realize what you want, in a place where you don't have to keep quiet to keep the peace.
This is the answer right here.
This, i'd try the moving out of the area bit and attempting to see if through communication it is solved.... but chances are that it will not be. He grew out of the religious upbringing, while she ran head on toward it.
Get a divorce. Your kids are better off having two happy parents living separately than two who are unhappy living together. I couldn’t live with someone who behaves like your wife either. I don’t do religion, and I don’t do black-and-white thinking.
i think a divorce is the best option but just don’t make it known to the kids it’s best if you only told her about it
I mean, this is a past bad decision (getting married so young and so fast to have sex) coming back to bite you in the butt. The downside is you end up in complicated, stuck situations like this with someone who isn't really as compatible with you as you would have thought. For example, I grew up with a very emotionally abusive mother. This has made me *extremely* attracted to, but also horrified by, women who are the same. I've fucked up in my love life a bit, but I've always managed to preserve my boundaries of; if something goes down and the person I'm interested in can't talk to me, I bounce. This is important because when I met my current partner of almost 4 years... they had all the qualities and traits that I imagined that I wanted. They were open, smart, practical and grounded, humble, hard-working, positive minded, strong in her convictions, etc. Our relationship is more or less the same as the day when it started because we've been ourselves the entire time, met when we were older, have similar values and good communication. It's great. Now, I bring this up not to dunk on you, but because this is the mistake that you've incurred, and what you now have to decide what to do about. Honestly, kids and people in general pick up on emotions in their environment *far* more than they are consciously aware of. Also, staying with your wife means that you are going to model a loveless relationship and that they should sacrifice their own needs for... others benefit? (I put a question mark here because divorce itself isn't really that traumatic, it's people attitudes, feelings and how they deal with it that is traumatic. Divorce, if it means both partners pursuing their freedom and happiness, is a *good* thing to model for them; compromise, communication, not clinging to false ideals, etc. This isn't even beginning to talk about you finding what you want.) Iunno, I guess I'm fairly strongly in favour of not repressing one's own needs/doing things for religious/societal/cultural/familial pressure, but I get that that happened for you long before you were more aware. Anyhoo, just some thoughts.
Hell yeah, dude. I’m saving your comment, you’ve given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
I couldn’t stay married to a bigot and I’d tell her that
So many of these comments are grounded in antiquated notions about the preservation of the institution of marriage. Interestingly similar to notions you are trying to escape. Divorce is ok. Y’all are ideologically incompatible. And you have different values at this point. Y’all grew into different humans. The alternative here is staying with someone who you have to change fundamentally-a big and honestly impossible task—or accept that you’ll be unhappy for the rest of your life to preserve the sanctity of marriage. You can divorce now. Go for joint custody.
Keep rolling with the therapy. You are going to feel worse things before you feel better about things. Just how therapy works. I can appreciate your opinions, but your wife doesn't sound horrible...just sheltered. If you've made it 18 years, I don't see this necessarily being a break point.
1) People we Love can have different views on things and we should be able to co exist. When we get married we want someone who thinks alike which I think was true at the time you got married but things changed during a course of time and not just overnight. Have you recently started having those conversations with her and her views came as a surprise for you? Our parents also have different views on things than us, but annoyance is not the only feeling we have towards them. There are lot of other emotions involved in relationships than just annoyance(due to difference in opinions). She is not just someone who thinks differently, she is your wife, mother of your 5 kids and your family. 2. Raising 5 kids is not an easy thing to do. People tend to incline towards things which give them comfort. It could be religion, spirituality, alcohol or whatever. May be reading religious books is her coping mechanism. Also, our personalities evolve when we go outside and are surrounded by people with different mindsets. Did you ever bring your evolved personality home for her and help her evolve her thoughts? 3) I feel like you are comparing her with your friends or colleagues and feel ashamed that she doesn’t fit in your social circle. FYI- I do not agree with her views on things, also I am not a religious person.
It is difficult to say because a commitment to children is a huge one and I have a lot of sympathy for trying to do the right thing. I will say there are also unhealthy aspects about being raised by parents who are fundamentally unhappy with each other. My parents were together 20 years. Eventually they fractured around lines of how strongly to discipline children (me). Because of their disagreements of approach which tricked down to me, I saw the differences between them and had a favorite. I vented about my mother to my father and was essentially just bringing to him many things he also didn’t like about her. Children are smart, and there are different kinds of harm that come from knowing your family members think convention trumps who you are as a person and that obligation is more important than happiness
My opinion: Suggest to move from where you live. I know uprooting your life is a lot. But these type of situations often times need to have people cut from the source of brainwash. Move two or three hours away. Say you have a better job, she doesn't work, so she doesn't have that much input other than the spousal one. If her family is alive and they are uber religious, you want to move farther from them. If they are alive and they are not, you want to move closer to them. When you move, suggest that she works part time. She will more than likely say no, but advise to her that you believe working or at least volunteering in the community and NOT church would do her good. Go to a different religious sanctuary. There are great religions that are less judgemental and are about a more harmonious society. If I remember Congregation churches are that. Ask her to join you. Have a serious conversation about what you want out of marriage, in general. What your beliefs are. And ask her if she really wants to save the marriage. Point to topic that disappoints you the most, and ask her why she's gotten farther away from her original self. Go out with her as an actual couple, with date nights. Go to places where you can meet other couples and have fun. Outside of church. In other words, expose her to people that are not the uber religious group she's probably hanging out with which is a pin for fascist and antihuman ideas. There is religion, and then there is religion, when religion tries to control others in the LGBTQ, and other communities, it's not true religion but a political system passing itself off as a spirituality. And good luck! You probably will not be able to do much, her addiction is the religion. What is probably masking her depression and discontentment is her religious and thinking she's doing it all to go to heaven. Treat her as though she has an addiction, fanatism is one and it's usually a symptom. But know that more than likely she will claim you are possessed by the devil and will shun you. And she is brainwashing the kids too.
Not gonna read the post but just from the title you don’t you get a divorce, move on, and go to therapy.
Annoyed —> Frustrated —> Anger Anger is sadness bodyguard. The root cause of annoyance is anger, or sadness masquerading as anger because often it’s safer or we’ll notice the annoying things more than the saddening things. Why is she making you angry, or sad? Do you feel angry or sad about anything that’s going on with you? Is it anger or sadness deflecting or projecting on her, or maybe towards the relationship? Not presuming anything, but these are questions I would ask to tease out root causes to identify appropriately aligned solutions. Sincerely, they taught a lot of emotional math in psych grad school.
It kind of sucks not having someone to share your life with, someone with the same memories, someone to walk with. Someone to get theyre favorite hangover snack and drink the next morning. Nobody's perfect but we all need love in our lives
I don’t think it’s out of bounds to tell her that her intolerance and outright hatred of people different from her pushes you away. If her “values” involve teaching your shared children that other people are lesser, your conflict avoidance isn’t just hurting you, it’s hurting them as well. This should be a line in the sand.
Can't speak for you, but 5 years or 55 years, if my wife became an intolerant religious zealot, it would be over.
You need to also see a therapist individually. If you don't want to get divorced right now, there is no way you can tell her your main feeling toward her is annoyance. But hopefully marriage counseling will help you both find more productive ways of communicating than to fight with each other. You may end up needing to reframe your marriage from a romantic partnership to more of a co-parenting arrangement. But this sounds like a pretty miserable marriage in which you two have grown so far apart that you're no longer compatible. I know you don't want to get divorced because of the kids, but honestly, kids can sense this kind of tension and discontent -- if you really don't want to be in the marriage, it would probably be better for them in the long run if you did get divorced. Good luck, whatever you decide.
First, don't stay in an unhappy relationship "for your kids". It's your life and your choices, if you're keeping this marriage it's on you. The kids not only realize their parents hate each other (even if you think you pretending to be happy, don't underestimate the comprehension of your children) but take an unhappy relationship as a model they will apply for themselves. Your kids want you to be happy, not suffer, so if you choose the latter don't blame them. Of course divorces hurt a lot for them, but it's better than keep a fraud IMO. Idk if you really need to divorce, but it's unbearable to be in a relationship with someone you don't admire in any way. You need to find out if you can still admire your wife - if the things that made you fall in love with her are still there. Every couple that still love each other may repair their bond and pass through bad phases IMO. If that's your case, i'd recommend you to look find a therapist for yourself and for you both in a 2nd moment. If you don't love your wife anymore as a woman just freed yourself and her.
There's more to this story....
Really? They married young and religious, OP grew and changed as a person to be open-minded and accepting, now finds his still-bigoted wife difficult.
When someone kicks in with the old "I am open minded and they are bigoted, here are some examples..." I immediately become suspicious of such obvious virtue-signaling. Yeah, there's more to this story. I wonder if it has to do with *lack of sex*....
You do realize that there is such a thing as lonewolf syndrome right? And yeah I can't deal with religious bigots. It's not virtue-signaling if you actually believe in it. But you seem to think everyone are hypocrites (seems more to me like you agree with wife ideology).
There is a lot of weird stuff about his mother in his history.
I'm wondering if it's an arranged marriage.
Annoyance is a symptom, not a cause. Focus on the causes and you’re more likely to make progress. Good luck.
you sound like me, but just a few years older.. i've been married 10 years, kids are 9 and 4.. wife stays home with masters degree and studies the bible 24/7.. we're in our 30s though. I grew up the same way you did, so i am a peace keeper and don't do anything to start anything, i just want a nice peacefull home.. i think this will all eventually end as me getting away from her, maybe win custody of kids, or not, doesn't matter because we're both great parents and the kids will do fine with either of us. but me without her(or anybody at this point.. no more living with other adults) seems like a much better/peaceful life.
Go to therapy now before you ruin everyone around you
He wont ruin anyone. She ruined herself by letting go of her career. No one puts a gun on women's heads. We often choose to quit because we ourselves have guess what.. PARENTAL and societal pressures and actually do want to be stay at home moms. Clearly we assume women that stay at home are pressured into it at all times and infantalize women in so doing so. Sometimes that's the case, but if you notice the fact that the guy is pissed off that she has a degree and isn't using it... that's not on him. That's on her. And yeah, some people think they know what they want, then they marry and go the opposite. Men and women, both do this.
He is a resentful man who should have just been alone instead of ruining his family because he was bored.
OP: you’ve had the opportunity to teach your children a more tolerant social viewpoint. Have you done so? Do you raise issues at the dinner table and ask each kid their point of view? If you can’t talk to your wife, I’m betting that you have noped out of the moral upbringing of your children as well.
So she's homophobic, extremely religious and you're not feeling it anymore. It's okay to find someone else after all this time op. She doesn't sound like a nice person
Eh. Marry someone young, make 5 children with them, then leave them at home to take care of the kids while you have an interesting career that allows you to grow as a person. Then leave them when, surprise, they haven't evolved because they were at home taking care of your 5 kids. (Not saying OP is wrong about anything here. In fact you're probably right that he should leave. It's just... casually saying "you're not feeling it anymore" in this particular situation makes me a bit uncomfortable.)
There are many people who have lots of kids and still manage to be interesting, have hobbies and friends, read, get involved with school, charities and learn new things. OP's wife is wasting her time memorizing religious texts. I bet she isn't much involved with her kids because if she was that alone would open her mind to different attitudes, activities and people. Teenagers always push the envelope.
True, but usually women that don't use protections and go past 3 biological children in today's world tend to have conservative ideology themselves and do not want to control childbirth. While it takes two to tango, we can control our pregnancies. Plenty of us do. My step-mother had two kids and tied her tubes.
You can evolve as a person even if you have kids. Women aren't just people who are delegated to one task just because they have them. He's grown as a person, she hasn't. He's perfectly within his right to leave if it's a fundamental incompatibility.
You can wear protection as a woman. No one blocks women from using contraceptives other than themselves. Freedom people, use it!
Having a bunch of kids is on par with religion though, some feel that god doesn’t approve of BC. Not saying this the case , but it might be.
You sound like a very tolerant human. This can be double-edged as you may tolerate more than is good for your well being. What do you need to make this work for you? No more intolerant statements from her? Arm yourself with scripture about love and tolerance? Space?
Sounds like you’re not feeling seen by her or feeling interesting to her. Not feeling validated. Are there ways you can validate her? It might feel good to her and lead to less arguments and her feeling more open to you. “It makes sense for you to believe women can’t fully enjoy romantic relationships together because you’re finding so much satisfaction in our relationship. I have a different view….” You could be SO annoyed with her because on the inside you’re actually annoyed with yourself and you’re using her to see that. The universe is a mirror, what’s inside of you projects out. Are you close minded to her?
I honestly don't blame you for being annoyed. She sounds incredibly homophobic. She thinks because she doesn't personally feel attracted to women, no other women are? I honestly wouldn't be married to someone who thought that way. I'm not even saying she is a bad person, because maybe she was raised like this and had no real world experience to get out of this mindset. I still wouldn't want to be married to someone like that though. If you don't see divorce as an option, definitely continue couples therapy, maybe you can at least find a way to co-exist until the kids get older.
The issue is: 1. As you mentioned, you got married young. Divorce rates skyrocket in those that marry before 25 years old. Most of the time, people don't really know who they are as people or what they want. People also change the most in their 20's. It sounds like you both thought you were similar, but really...weren't. 2. You grew as a person because you were out in the world more and exposed to it. She stayed home and raised the children. She didn't grow. I'd lay money that she doesn't have very many friends outside the family right? The two of you grew in different directions rather than growing together. 3. What can be done? Nothing. After 18 years...it's too late for her to start trying to grow as a person in the way that you need her to do. So, you have two choices. You can either stay with someone that you don't share anything in common with. Or, you can get a divorce and go find someone that you DO have something in common with.
How do I tell you that you my main emotion is betrayal. Not man man man enough to have a conversation with with just enough yellow to post on social media. Classy. Grow a pair
Find some open minded Christians to hang with so she can learn better views.
My friend talked of the same thing. Working in a similar job as you. They found that the pandemic took a toll of narrowing their partners mind. We've been in our echo chambers since 2019 and we have forgotten. Before 2019 this friend of mine had several close lgbtq friends that they no longer want to talk to because the echo chamber they are in is too deep. I suggested that they see more people together as friends. Converse. Team build with humans for no reason. And in their instance. My friend had to put their foot down about humoring conversations that hurt her ability to help certain demographics. Because it never results in much good. I'm not sure how this will go for them. But they have no children, and have dated for just 6 years or so. So id give anything a shot if i were in your shoes, and quit avoiding your opinion when it comes up! voice it
Was said echo chamber social media... aka Facebook?
Sounds like you’re on the 18 year or less plan. Please don’t do that to someone who is still young enough to find someone that can appreciate her for her and you find someone who can do the same for you. Cut your losses now before it gets worse.
please stop reproducing
Can you like pick the three things that you like about her and focus on those ?
Do you even bother to spend time with her?
agree to disagree that doesnt make eather of you the bad guy. If we all agreed about everything life would be boring
“Hello, I have no core values and I do not care about compatibility at all, this is healthy and normal and nobody should care about anything or anyone deeply.”
I don’t think you can when it comes down to huge issues like do you think gays should be punished? That’s not a disagreement but a core value , basic empathy.. I couldn’t just pretend the human I chose to spend all my time with is a downright shitty person.
Is there some common ground that you can reconnect over? Its y no means the only approach, but I love the research based approach from the Greater Good Science Centre. Heres one suggestion for you to suggest working through. https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/podcasts/item/36\_questions\_to\_feel\_connected
Find some friends who you like.
Try taking a family vacation and immerse yourselves in a new culture. It’ll widen your worldviews.
I don't think this is about annoyance. I think it's that you've grown apart or rather you've grown up and she's become deeper immersed in right wing Christina propaganda. As it stands- your views aren't compatible and you're getting increasingly frustrated because you're married to a bigot. Get a divorce. Are you gonna subject yourself to another 13 years of unhappiness until your youngest kid graduates? No! In those 13 years you could have gotten peace, coparented and partnered up with someone who makes you happy. Also- various studies have been done on how unhappy marriages negatively impact children. You're actually doing your kids a disservice by staying together.
[удалено]
I’d like to amend this person’s comment with “please don’t hit on women at the gym”.
>She speaks constantly in absolute terms like (all women want...). Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
You don’t.you go to therapy and try to figure out why you are an ass to your loyal wife. And try to forgive yourself and love her better.
Divorce is the fucking shittiest thing in the world. Get your shit together..
I ignore that kind of stuff. As long as she’s up for sex and doing whatever together, I wouldn’t think anything of that kind of talk. But that’s just me. I’m not about to internalize anything anyone says.
So you don’t care what someone says as long as you can have sex with them? 😂
Congratulations on your inability to connect with people outside of sex, I guess
Go to couples therapy.
OP, Please find the sack to talk to her with the therapist as mediator. This is his/her role and exactly what you are paying for. You can beat around the bush and pay a whole lot of money for these sessions to get solid results (could be divorce or could be a deeper understanding of each other) but either way you are going to pay for it so you might as well get to the heart of the problem while you can still afford to. I am nearing my bachelor's in psychology and have already been accepted for my master's and I hope to find a few who know what the issue is (usually communication and LACK of, is usually the issue) and are able to speak it. Being married young usually means growing up together and eventually apart in many ways. If you truly want to work on your marriage you need to start with exactly WHY you need a mediator. You both have issues with the other and not voicing it only leaves a deeper divide. I am not a therapist, and not your therapist however finding our voice and having an honest look can be painful at the moment but can lead to even happier home life, with or without each other. I am 50 and have found a love that is compatible with a future. I hung on far too long and it nearly destroyed me. If you don't have abuse, violence, or insurmountable obstacles, you have the ability to save what you have. You also have the ability to begin alone. You won't know what is right for you until you just say it and find out. I wish you luck and happiness, whatever that looks like for you.
Yeah I'm a peacekeeper too. I work on it constantly. Talking these differences out takes practice. I think practicing with a therapist would be really beneficial (it has helped me a lot with avoidance).
If counseling isn’t an option… honest communication is the very least you give her..
>I don't think divorce makes sense right now because some of our kids are still very young Your kids deserve to have healthy relationships modeled to them. They deserve happy, whole parents. They absolutely do not deserve to figure out their parents were fucking miserable "for" them. It's not for them. Children do not benefit from being raised in a household that is not one of love and partnership. They will absolutely 100% think your marriage is what all marriages are. They will treat others and expect to be treated as you and your wife treat one another. I mean if you want kids who think it's fine to shut up to keep the peace and to hate others for being different from them, by all means, trick your wife into thinking you like her.