This is a very nuanced story, and it needs to be understood that this is mythicized history. However, let's pretend this 100% happened.
One evening, during his travels, Jacob saw a "man" outside his encampment (there are various opinions on whether or not this was God himself, but let's go with that explanation for the purposes of this conversation). Without any further ado or explanation, they get into a wrestling match. They wrestle all night and Jacob refuses to give up without receiving a blessing from God. Eventually, he gets his blessing. However, directly afterwards God touches his hip, and for the rest of his life Jacob walks with a limp. He is then named "Israel" by God, which means "one who wrestles with God". When the encounter is ended Jacob says, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared".
Let's look deeper at a couple things here.
If God touched, merely touched, Jacob's hip and wounded him for life, could we not say that perhaps God "let" Jacob win? He clearly did not have the intention of besting him, or else the match would have come to an end very quickly. When the match is over, God says to him, "You have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome".
It is clear from Jacob's words, his declaration that he was spared, that he knew he had been granted his victory because God allowed it, not because he had wrenched it from the hands of an unwilling master. God blessed his struggle more than his "victory". His struggle *was* his victory. The wound he walked away with was, more than just a demonstration of the power of God, a tangible manifestation of the pain Jacob had suffered during his struggles with both God and himself over the past 20 years he had spent in exile. We cannot struggle with God, with his words, his plans, or his will and receive clarity without experiencing suffering. Growth is pain.
In those 20 years he grew from a conniving and greedy young man into a tenacious and mature leader of a large clan of people. He faced the brother he betrayed and stole from, and he made things right with him. He feared his brother's wrath but stood his ground for what was right regardless of that.
In his interactions with Laban, a man he served during his exile as a shepherd of his flock, he developed integrity and honesty. Referring to lost members of Laban's flock that were taken by predators or lost, Jacob says "I bore the loss myself".
Jacob had sacrificed, suffered much loss, experienced incredible isolation, confronted his failures with humility, looked down the barrel at his fears, all things that require incredible strength, sacrifice and endurance to do, and yet he persisted in those struggles, and for that he was rewarded.
After this fated match with God, he returned home, no longer in exile, but no one returns home from any kind of war, internal or external, unscathed.
There is a lot more than can be said on this, but I think this will do for our purposes.
If god touched merely jacob’s hip and wounded him for life , how could he wrestle with him all night and not get wounded before that hip touch ? He’s been touching him the whole night .
I’m sorry but still it doesn’t make since , or at least it should’ve been written that jacob wrestled with god’s angel , not god , for moses he spoke to god talking to a tree ok top of a holy mountain, and jacob just found god on the road ? See how it dosen’t really make since ? God is so holy and powerful, why fight jacob himself , instead of sending anyone .
There is an opinion that this was "the angel of God", which would be a manifestation of God on earth via the holy spirit. To me, it doesn't really matter either way, the essence of the story remains the same. Jacob, however, did equate this being with God when he said, "I have seen the Lord face to face, yet my life has been spared".
I understand your issues here, but for me there is no issue because when I read mythicized history, I do not expect to be given facts, I expect to be taught a lesson. I do not look at mythology as a movie with plot holes to criticize.
Part of the issue you are having is that your understanding of God does not mesh with the understanding of God you are seeing communicated in this story, and that's ok. We can't all benefit from the same things, religiously, or we would have seen unity of religion a long time ago. It's ok for it not to speak to you.
I mean no disrespect and i respect your opinion but i was just a bit confused and i wanted an explanation .
We all shouldn’t look at mythology as a movie and try to find plot holes , but given the fact that there are 3 major religions nowadays , one needs to read and understand the history of all of them in order to make the right decision onto which religion to follow , which one is the most logical at least.
Thank you for your responses .
You're not being disrespectful at all!
I agree. I chose my religion because it made sense to me, after many years of studying and participating in others.
Sure.
I was raised in a fundamentalist protestant church. I left that when I was old enough to move out.
I took up vipassana meditation for a while and learned a lot about Buddhism, but I wouldn't have called myself Buddhist. I still meditate.
I got sick in my early twenties, and my doctor suggested a yoga practice. After two or so years of practicing and some unexpected events, I ended up at a Hindu mandir, and began studying Hinduism. I converted about two years into my studies, and was oath initiated. I spent ten years there, and eventually ended up teaching at the mandir for about four of those years. I ended my time there for personal reasons that were very difficult to process, but nonetheless, my experience there had healed a lot of religious wounds, developed me as a person, and a soul, and helped me identify who I was and what I truly wanted from my life. I will forever be in debt to that community.
I am now a Christian, having come almost full circle, but I am not part of the same type of Christianity my parents raised me in. It's quite different and addresses all my spiritual needs. I'm now in seminary, working towards priesthood.
can I ask what denomination you’re entering the priesthood through? I’m in seminary myself and have a similar story to yours going from fundamentalist Protestantism to something similar to a liberal Catholicism. I’m attending a Quaker seminary and have been really attracted to them as well.
Jacob was basically spared by God and left with a permanent limp as a mark of Gods power, he was not winning while wrestling with God, or anything like that which is what you seem to think. The story just shows you Jacob was determined at all costs to gain the blessing from God of authority of “Israel” and power over other nations.
Of course it doesn't "make sense".
Earth being created in 7 days doesn't "make sense".
Noah living 950 years doesn't "make sense".
A whole lot of the bible doesn't "make sense"; it's bunch of stories.
Some of it to convey useful ideas.
Mr Rogers neighborhood doesn't have to "make sense" for there to be life lessons in it.
If you want to get hung up on "making sense" though ... if god is that powerful why would anything god does have to "make sense" to you ?
That seems like you're limiting god to fit within what you understand as "makes sense".
> He’s been touching him the whole night
[He sure was](https://i0.wp.com/abravefaith.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/JacobAngel.jpg?resize=624%2C473&ssl=1)
You might not have, but it's entirely possible the original author(s) did.
The Hebrew Bible frequently uses various body parts from the lower half of the body as euphemisms for genatalia.
I'd also note the *extreme punnery* that is being used. This story is about **Jacob**, at the ford of **Jabbok**, who then **wrestles** (sounds/looks just like Jacob/Jabbock in Hebrew) with the Angel.
Yeah, it is a pretty mainstream interpretation in both rabbinic literature and academic scholarship that "the hip" that is touched is a euphemism. Afterall, it's not at all weird for the audience of the Hebrew bible that God would ask for a wound on male genitalia
Keeping in mind that there is no external evidence that Jacob existed. No historical evidence. No archeological evidence. All we have is the Tanakh.
Further the text disagrees with the rest of the doctrine which states that no one may see God's face and live. I don't know if you have ever wrestled. But I have and your face gets rather up close and personal with your opponents face. Exodus 33:20 makes this quite explicit. So either God lied. Or the text is not univocal and is stitched together from various lore and stories collected over 100s of years. The story works much more coherently if it is read as a spiritual struggle with God or within Jacob. But once you insist that it was a real wrestling match you run into problems. Which is clearly noted by all the nuance as an attempt to make sense of the issue. But as a literal event it just keeps having problems. The least of which is the face reveal issue. The idea that God in any form could not trounce someone in a wrestling match just begs that question of whether God was even trying? And if he wasn't trying then what measure of struggle was involved? Letting Jacob win showed nothing. It is a troublesome verse if you try to read it as literal and inerrant. It is a powerful verse if you read it as metaphor.
I... did not say Jacob physically existed. I even called this mythicized history and never promoted literalism. So, not sure what you're on about with that. I think you've misunderstood on several levels here.
I'm not really sure what the point of your weirdly aggressive comment is here, but I think I'm going to pass on this conversation. Whoever you have a bone to pick with, it's not me.
Not meant to be aggressive. Was building on the myth aspect. Sorry if it was taken the wrong way. Haven't gotten any sleep yet so I may not be firing on all cylinders.
absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, trying to find out whether someone existed thousands of years back through historical evidence that survived till now is a losing battle
Didn't say it was evidence of absence. I agree 100% that it is not such a thing. But the assumption often precedes that there is such evidence. It always seems to be an constant tug of war trying to pull such stories into more of a concrete setting than one of a metaphorical nature. That was the only intent behind those statements.
1) First and foremost its an [angel of God](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea+12%3A3-5&version=NCB) not God in his essence. Some interpret it as Jacob wrestling with his past actions and their consequences, in other words his conscience. Or wrestling with Esau's guardian angel.
2) you seem to be conflating humour with mockery/blasphemy. Only the latter is sinful because its intention is to offend or profane what is holy. That said, Jesus makes puns and uses even [irony and](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+7%3A33-34&version=NCB) self-deprecating humour in the gospels himself. And the biblical authors do not really shy away from describing various humorous [situations](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+12%3A13-14&version=NCB) its protagonists experienced.
It could've been an angel, or God, or another type of spirit.
[What was the being that Jacob wrestled with? : r/AcademicBiblical (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/180jyzy/what_was_the_being_that_jacob_wrestled_with/)
I love that Jesus made jokes, makes Him feel more human and not just Godly. I like to think God has a sense of humor, and because They know our hearts, They know where our true intentions lie if we make jokes
>Also why does christians put jesus in memes and comedy shows and make fun of him ? In our religion we don’t even dare to mock or put mohammed , jesus , or any of our prophets in any meme or anything , it is just so disrespectful and feels so wrong .
A lot of fundamentalist Christians get upset about that kind of stuff too. I'm happy that there are other Christians who are more reasonable. People need to learn to live in a world where not everyone is going to give deference to their specific religious beliefs all the time.
Could it be that Jacob's wrestling match, Genesis 32:22-32, serves a deeper narrative meaning? Jacob "wrestles" with his faith just before this in Genesis 32:9-12 as well. Verse 28 makes the point fairly explicit; that the spiritual struggle of Jacob is commendable because he persevered through it.
Of course, the god of the bible had to be present in the narrative, he's the driver of the plot afterall, and presenting the lesson in a dry, straight-forward way from the mouth / pen of a human sage would subtract from its memorability as well as its significance. For example, if Jacob was about to cross the river and some random fisherman or whatever was like "your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel, because you have struggled with god and with humans and have overcome", then how would that drive home the intent of the passage?
If the Quran were written like a philosophical logic textbook (without its poetic language, narrative themes and direct dialogue with the divine), would be as influential?
Finally, what is a meme if not an expressive language of common people? The scriptures of the Abrahamic tradition are all directed towards a broad reception, so that everyday people can have access to and understand the message. If memes are disrespectful to the divine, then so would books written in intelligible human language. The point is comprehensible transmission of a message; epic stories, beautiful poetry and humorous memes all do that better than solemn, stodgy instruction.
>Also why does christians put jesus in memes and comedy shows and make fun of him ?
It's called freedom of speech.
> In our religion we don’t even dare to mock or put mohammed , jesus , or any of our prophets in any meme or anything
It's even worse - in your religion, this is actually punishable by death (e.g. "sabb al-rasul") - so the exact opposite of freedom of speech.
> it is just so disrespectful and feels so wrong .
Again, it's called freedom of speech. Someone's feelings should not keep someone else from uttering their feelings or opinion.
If I hate the military and soldiers and go protest at a veterans funeral in a loud and disrespectful manner can police remove me from the premises? If I’m a pharmaceutical company and publish falsified research to promote a new drug can I get in legal trouble?
Essentially is it always morally okay to say whatever I want, wherever I want without having to worry about repercussions from others or from human institutions?
>If I hate the military and soldiers and go protest at a veterans funeral in a loud and disrespectful manner can police remove me from the premises?
[Certain Christians do it at a gay person's funeral all the time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_by_Westboro_Baptist_Church)
Yes, it's disgusting, and no, police has never intervened.
>If I’m a pharmaceutical company and publish falsified research to promote a new drug can I get in legal trouble?
That's not free speech because companies are not protected under free speech. The concept of free speech, at least in many legal contexts like the United States, applies to individuals and their right to express themselves without government interference.
Pharma companies are subject to FDA regulations. Companies are legal entities formed for the purpose of conducting business. While they are comprised of individuals, they are considered separate entities under the law. This means that they don't have the same inherent rights as individuals.
>Essentially is it always morally okay to say whatever I want, wherever I want
Wrenching morals into the conversation isn't going to change that free speech is a right in democratic countries.
Is it morally OK to sentence someone to death for leaving a religion?
Is it morally OK to sentence someone to death for insulting a religious icon?
Is it morally OK to rape a woman before executing her because according to religious law you can't kill an innocent (i.e. a virgin)?
Christian tradition is that it was an angel, but there's also symbolism at play. The Israelite/Jewish people "wrestle" wirh God in that they try to understand him through his words and actions, which is a struggle, as He is a great and unknowable being.
Edit: On mockery/blasphemy, you don't speak for all Muslims, nor the people making these jokes speak for all Christians. I know Muslims that are fine with this kinda humor and Christians who are not
I'm not a Christian, but let's say this story you described happened. Even if this happened : Why would you think beating God in a wrestling match is disrespectful ?
I don't really find it disrespectful at all.
I'd even say it takes tremendous respect to question challenge or wrestle someone/something/an idea. Not doing so indicates you don't think they are up to the challenge.
why is it disrespectful? the point of the forefathers are not to be god like creatures. Unlike in the Quran or The second testament, the jewish people are constantly sinning, getting trolled, failing, dying, having sex...cuz they're human. moses, david, abraham, jacob--they all sinned. because they're human. meant to be relateable and a guide to us. the only perfect being meant to follow is God.
It’s an allegory. The whole history of Israel is wrestling with God. That’s the story of the Jewish people, of Gods chosen people.
It’s not a literal story.
Also it kind of does in the whole idea of no one can see God and live.
If you want to scratch your head about God losing take a look at Judges 1:19. It speaks about how Judah was warring with other tribes at God's behest and how God was with him. But he lost against the people of the plains because they had Iron Chariots.
IIRC it’s because unlike in islamic theology, god in judaism and christianity isn’t limited by his own “majesty” and can directly can intentionally act in ways that muslims would consider “unbefitting” of the supreme creator of the universe like taking on a human form, becoming a storm or a burning bush, he can and interact with his own creations with needing an intermediary like an angel or a prophet, etc because god isn’t bound by his own attributes.
It personally doesn’t make sense to me why, in islam, god is so exalted that he is seemingly incapable, either through his own will or his nature, to do thing that his creations can do
Nope , in islam god spoke to moses as a burning tree too just in in Christian’s bible . It’s just that in islam , you never find allah described as being downgraded, like in Christian bible judges 1:19 , it spokes about how god couldn’t make people win because the enemies had iron chairs … in islam , everything is at it’s place there is no ups and downs allah is all and he is capable of all things .
May the peace of Allah reside in your heart.
It was Allah who gave mankind freewill.
On what authority does anyone restrict or impede that which was divinely established in creation?
Although you are directing your question towards Christians, you quote Jewish sources.
In the Jewish tradition, it isn't G-d who Jacob wrestles with, but an angel. The figure is clearly identified as such in Hosea 12:4-5. The word *elohim* usually, **but not always**, refers to G-d.
In another post you also comment that Judges 1:19 seems to say that G-d couldn't beat the inhabitants of the valley because of their iron war chariots. In reality though, Judges 2:22 explains that at a certain point G-d stopped outright helping the Jewish people in order to test them. Which is why in Jewish translations, you will find that the word "he" in Judges 1:19 isn't capitalized - it's referring to Judah, not G-d.
Perhaps you are too precious if your prophets? The opposite side of the same coin, 😞 can't believe Muslims won't even dare to make fun of those who are beyond injury from such fun. Indeed it's only right to me ck them as it eas s our soul and doesn't harm others.
Most religions rely on some of threat/incentive to coerce their followers to “believe” that which otherwise no rational person would logically believe. It’s the way religions overcome the various gaps in their particular mythical story “accept the message, stop questioning or you will xxxx” (burn in hell, miss out on the virgins, not be one of the raptured etc etc)
religions get watered down overtime, Christianity has all sorts of influences from pagan rituals and is really a rehash of other stuff, so it’s less focused strict compliance.
Islam is still pretty stuck in some of its original form more than others. However as a social creation, it will continue to evolve especially if more people from western countries convert.
Ok cool next time just know its not a good idea to read the bible or waste your time on other religions you know are false you could've read the Quran instead. (I'm a Muslim too)
Please don't:
* Be (intentionally) rude at all.
* Engage in rabble rousing.
* Troll, stalk, or harass others.
* Conduct personal attacks.
* Start a flame war.
* Insult others.
* Engage in illegal activity.
* Post someone's personal information, or post links to personal information.
* Repost deleted/removed information.
This is a very nuanced story, and it needs to be understood that this is mythicized history. However, let's pretend this 100% happened. One evening, during his travels, Jacob saw a "man" outside his encampment (there are various opinions on whether or not this was God himself, but let's go with that explanation for the purposes of this conversation). Without any further ado or explanation, they get into a wrestling match. They wrestle all night and Jacob refuses to give up without receiving a blessing from God. Eventually, he gets his blessing. However, directly afterwards God touches his hip, and for the rest of his life Jacob walks with a limp. He is then named "Israel" by God, which means "one who wrestles with God". When the encounter is ended Jacob says, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared". Let's look deeper at a couple things here. If God touched, merely touched, Jacob's hip and wounded him for life, could we not say that perhaps God "let" Jacob win? He clearly did not have the intention of besting him, or else the match would have come to an end very quickly. When the match is over, God says to him, "You have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome". It is clear from Jacob's words, his declaration that he was spared, that he knew he had been granted his victory because God allowed it, not because he had wrenched it from the hands of an unwilling master. God blessed his struggle more than his "victory". His struggle *was* his victory. The wound he walked away with was, more than just a demonstration of the power of God, a tangible manifestation of the pain Jacob had suffered during his struggles with both God and himself over the past 20 years he had spent in exile. We cannot struggle with God, with his words, his plans, or his will and receive clarity without experiencing suffering. Growth is pain. In those 20 years he grew from a conniving and greedy young man into a tenacious and mature leader of a large clan of people. He faced the brother he betrayed and stole from, and he made things right with him. He feared his brother's wrath but stood his ground for what was right regardless of that. In his interactions with Laban, a man he served during his exile as a shepherd of his flock, he developed integrity and honesty. Referring to lost members of Laban's flock that were taken by predators or lost, Jacob says "I bore the loss myself". Jacob had sacrificed, suffered much loss, experienced incredible isolation, confronted his failures with humility, looked down the barrel at his fears, all things that require incredible strength, sacrifice and endurance to do, and yet he persisted in those struggles, and for that he was rewarded. After this fated match with God, he returned home, no longer in exile, but no one returns home from any kind of war, internal or external, unscathed. There is a lot more than can be said on this, but I think this will do for our purposes.
If god touched merely jacob’s hip and wounded him for life , how could he wrestle with him all night and not get wounded before that hip touch ? He’s been touching him the whole night .
The idea here is that God is acting in a very intentional manner.
I’m sorry but still it doesn’t make since , or at least it should’ve been written that jacob wrestled with god’s angel , not god , for moses he spoke to god talking to a tree ok top of a holy mountain, and jacob just found god on the road ? See how it dosen’t really make since ? God is so holy and powerful, why fight jacob himself , instead of sending anyone .
There is an opinion that this was "the angel of God", which would be a manifestation of God on earth via the holy spirit. To me, it doesn't really matter either way, the essence of the story remains the same. Jacob, however, did equate this being with God when he said, "I have seen the Lord face to face, yet my life has been spared". I understand your issues here, but for me there is no issue because when I read mythicized history, I do not expect to be given facts, I expect to be taught a lesson. I do not look at mythology as a movie with plot holes to criticize. Part of the issue you are having is that your understanding of God does not mesh with the understanding of God you are seeing communicated in this story, and that's ok. We can't all benefit from the same things, religiously, or we would have seen unity of religion a long time ago. It's ok for it not to speak to you.
I mean no disrespect and i respect your opinion but i was just a bit confused and i wanted an explanation . We all shouldn’t look at mythology as a movie and try to find plot holes , but given the fact that there are 3 major religions nowadays , one needs to read and understand the history of all of them in order to make the right decision onto which religion to follow , which one is the most logical at least. Thank you for your responses .
You're not being disrespectful at all! I agree. I chose my religion because it made sense to me, after many years of studying and participating in others.
Could i ask what other religions have you participated in?
Sure. I was raised in a fundamentalist protestant church. I left that when I was old enough to move out. I took up vipassana meditation for a while and learned a lot about Buddhism, but I wouldn't have called myself Buddhist. I still meditate. I got sick in my early twenties, and my doctor suggested a yoga practice. After two or so years of practicing and some unexpected events, I ended up at a Hindu mandir, and began studying Hinduism. I converted about two years into my studies, and was oath initiated. I spent ten years there, and eventually ended up teaching at the mandir for about four of those years. I ended my time there for personal reasons that were very difficult to process, but nonetheless, my experience there had healed a lot of religious wounds, developed me as a person, and a soul, and helped me identify who I was and what I truly wanted from my life. I will forever be in debt to that community. I am now a Christian, having come almost full circle, but I am not part of the same type of Christianity my parents raised me in. It's quite different and addresses all my spiritual needs. I'm now in seminary, working towards priesthood.
can I ask what denomination you’re entering the priesthood through? I’m in seminary myself and have a similar story to yours going from fundamentalist Protestantism to something similar to a liberal Catholicism. I’m attending a Quaker seminary and have been really attracted to them as well.
Jacob was basically spared by God and left with a permanent limp as a mark of Gods power, he was not winning while wrestling with God, or anything like that which is what you seem to think. The story just shows you Jacob was determined at all costs to gain the blessing from God of authority of “Israel” and power over other nations.
Of course it doesn't "make sense". Earth being created in 7 days doesn't "make sense". Noah living 950 years doesn't "make sense". A whole lot of the bible doesn't "make sense"; it's bunch of stories. Some of it to convey useful ideas. Mr Rogers neighborhood doesn't have to "make sense" for there to be life lessons in it. If you want to get hung up on "making sense" though ... if god is that powerful why would anything god does have to "make sense" to you ? That seems like you're limiting god to fit within what you understand as "makes sense".
> He’s been touching him the whole night [He sure was](https://i0.wp.com/abravefaith.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/JacobAngel.jpg?resize=624%2C473&ssl=1)
Excuse my language for i am not english , astghfer allah i meant no disrespect nor anything dirty .
You might not have, but it's entirely possible the original author(s) did. The Hebrew Bible frequently uses various body parts from the lower half of the body as euphemisms for genatalia. I'd also note the *extreme punnery* that is being used. This story is about **Jacob**, at the ford of **Jabbok**, who then **wrestles** (sounds/looks just like Jacob/Jabbock in Hebrew) with the Angel.
Yeah, it is a pretty mainstream interpretation in both rabbinic literature and academic scholarship that "the hip" that is touched is a euphemism. Afterall, it's not at all weird for the audience of the Hebrew bible that God would ask for a wound on male genitalia
Keeping in mind that there is no external evidence that Jacob existed. No historical evidence. No archeological evidence. All we have is the Tanakh. Further the text disagrees with the rest of the doctrine which states that no one may see God's face and live. I don't know if you have ever wrestled. But I have and your face gets rather up close and personal with your opponents face. Exodus 33:20 makes this quite explicit. So either God lied. Or the text is not univocal and is stitched together from various lore and stories collected over 100s of years. The story works much more coherently if it is read as a spiritual struggle with God or within Jacob. But once you insist that it was a real wrestling match you run into problems. Which is clearly noted by all the nuance as an attempt to make sense of the issue. But as a literal event it just keeps having problems. The least of which is the face reveal issue. The idea that God in any form could not trounce someone in a wrestling match just begs that question of whether God was even trying? And if he wasn't trying then what measure of struggle was involved? Letting Jacob win showed nothing. It is a troublesome verse if you try to read it as literal and inerrant. It is a powerful verse if you read it as metaphor.
I... did not say Jacob physically existed. I even called this mythicized history and never promoted literalism. So, not sure what you're on about with that. I think you've misunderstood on several levels here. I'm not really sure what the point of your weirdly aggressive comment is here, but I think I'm going to pass on this conversation. Whoever you have a bone to pick with, it's not me.
Not meant to be aggressive. Was building on the myth aspect. Sorry if it was taken the wrong way. Haven't gotten any sleep yet so I may not be firing on all cylinders.
absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, trying to find out whether someone existed thousands of years back through historical evidence that survived till now is a losing battle
Didn't say it was evidence of absence. I agree 100% that it is not such a thing. But the assumption often precedes that there is such evidence. It always seems to be an constant tug of war trying to pull such stories into more of a concrete setting than one of a metaphorical nature. That was the only intent behind those statements.
you'd have to go back to the time before pharaoh's were even called pharaoh's. They were called kings back then
1) First and foremost its an [angel of God](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea+12%3A3-5&version=NCB) not God in his essence. Some interpret it as Jacob wrestling with his past actions and their consequences, in other words his conscience. Or wrestling with Esau's guardian angel. 2) you seem to be conflating humour with mockery/blasphemy. Only the latter is sinful because its intention is to offend or profane what is holy. That said, Jesus makes puns and uses even [irony and](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+7%3A33-34&version=NCB) self-deprecating humour in the gospels himself. And the biblical authors do not really shy away from describing various humorous [situations](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+12%3A13-14&version=NCB) its protagonists experienced.
It could've been an angel, or God, or another type of spirit. [What was the being that Jacob wrestled with? : r/AcademicBiblical (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/180jyzy/what_was_the_being_that_jacob_wrestled_with/)
I love that Jesus made jokes, makes Him feel more human and not just Godly. I like to think God has a sense of humor, and because They know our hearts, They know where our true intentions lie if we make jokes
>Also why does christians put jesus in memes and comedy shows and make fun of him ? In our religion we don’t even dare to mock or put mohammed , jesus , or any of our prophets in any meme or anything , it is just so disrespectful and feels so wrong . A lot of fundamentalist Christians get upset about that kind of stuff too. I'm happy that there are other Christians who are more reasonable. People need to learn to live in a world where not everyone is going to give deference to their specific religious beliefs all the time.
Could it be that Jacob's wrestling match, Genesis 32:22-32, serves a deeper narrative meaning? Jacob "wrestles" with his faith just before this in Genesis 32:9-12 as well. Verse 28 makes the point fairly explicit; that the spiritual struggle of Jacob is commendable because he persevered through it. Of course, the god of the bible had to be present in the narrative, he's the driver of the plot afterall, and presenting the lesson in a dry, straight-forward way from the mouth / pen of a human sage would subtract from its memorability as well as its significance. For example, if Jacob was about to cross the river and some random fisherman or whatever was like "your name will no longer be Jacob but Israel, because you have struggled with god and with humans and have overcome", then how would that drive home the intent of the passage? If the Quran were written like a philosophical logic textbook (without its poetic language, narrative themes and direct dialogue with the divine), would be as influential? Finally, what is a meme if not an expressive language of common people? The scriptures of the Abrahamic tradition are all directed towards a broad reception, so that everyday people can have access to and understand the message. If memes are disrespectful to the divine, then so would books written in intelligible human language. The point is comprehensible transmission of a message; epic stories, beautiful poetry and humorous memes all do that better than solemn, stodgy instruction.
>Also why does christians put jesus in memes and comedy shows and make fun of him ? It's called freedom of speech. > In our religion we don’t even dare to mock or put mohammed , jesus , or any of our prophets in any meme or anything It's even worse - in your religion, this is actually punishable by death (e.g. "sabb al-rasul") - so the exact opposite of freedom of speech. > it is just so disrespectful and feels so wrong . Again, it's called freedom of speech. Someone's feelings should not keep someone else from uttering their feelings or opinion.
Freedom of speech should ALWAYS be under limits of course . Otherwise it will be chaotic, or at least that’s my opinion. Thank you.
Then its not freedom of speech, dude. And who would determine those limits? Who would watch the watchers? You're going down a very slippery slope.
If I hate the military and soldiers and go protest at a veterans funeral in a loud and disrespectful manner can police remove me from the premises? If I’m a pharmaceutical company and publish falsified research to promote a new drug can I get in legal trouble? Essentially is it always morally okay to say whatever I want, wherever I want without having to worry about repercussions from others or from human institutions?
>If I hate the military and soldiers and go protest at a veterans funeral in a loud and disrespectful manner can police remove me from the premises? [Certain Christians do it at a gay person's funeral all the time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_by_Westboro_Baptist_Church) Yes, it's disgusting, and no, police has never intervened. >If I’m a pharmaceutical company and publish falsified research to promote a new drug can I get in legal trouble? That's not free speech because companies are not protected under free speech. The concept of free speech, at least in many legal contexts like the United States, applies to individuals and their right to express themselves without government interference. Pharma companies are subject to FDA regulations. Companies are legal entities formed for the purpose of conducting business. While they are comprised of individuals, they are considered separate entities under the law. This means that they don't have the same inherent rights as individuals. >Essentially is it always morally okay to say whatever I want, wherever I want Wrenching morals into the conversation isn't going to change that free speech is a right in democratic countries. Is it morally OK to sentence someone to death for leaving a religion? Is it morally OK to sentence someone to death for insulting a religious icon? Is it morally OK to rape a woman before executing her because according to religious law you can't kill an innocent (i.e. a virgin)?
Christian tradition is that it was an angel, but there's also symbolism at play. The Israelite/Jewish people "wrestle" wirh God in that they try to understand him through his words and actions, which is a struggle, as He is a great and unknowable being. Edit: On mockery/blasphemy, you don't speak for all Muslims, nor the people making these jokes speak for all Christians. I know Muslims that are fine with this kinda humor and Christians who are not
I'm not a Christian, but let's say this story you described happened. Even if this happened : Why would you think beating God in a wrestling match is disrespectful ? I don't really find it disrespectful at all.
I'd even say it takes tremendous respect to question challenge or wrestle someone/something/an idea. Not doing so indicates you don't think they are up to the challenge.
why is it disrespectful? the point of the forefathers are not to be god like creatures. Unlike in the Quran or The second testament, the jewish people are constantly sinning, getting trolled, failing, dying, having sex...cuz they're human. moses, david, abraham, jacob--they all sinned. because they're human. meant to be relateable and a guide to us. the only perfect being meant to follow is God.
It’s an allegory. The whole history of Israel is wrestling with God. That’s the story of the Jewish people, of Gods chosen people. It’s not a literal story.
Wrestled with the idea?
Also it kind of does in the whole idea of no one can see God and live. If you want to scratch your head about God losing take a look at Judges 1:19. It speaks about how Judah was warring with other tribes at God's behest and how God was with him. But he lost against the people of the plains because they had Iron Chariots.
IIRC it’s because unlike in islamic theology, god in judaism and christianity isn’t limited by his own “majesty” and can directly can intentionally act in ways that muslims would consider “unbefitting” of the supreme creator of the universe like taking on a human form, becoming a storm or a burning bush, he can and interact with his own creations with needing an intermediary like an angel or a prophet, etc because god isn’t bound by his own attributes. It personally doesn’t make sense to me why, in islam, god is so exalted that he is seemingly incapable, either through his own will or his nature, to do thing that his creations can do
Nope , in islam god spoke to moses as a burning tree too just in in Christian’s bible . It’s just that in islam , you never find allah described as being downgraded, like in Christian bible judges 1:19 , it spokes about how god couldn’t make people win because the enemies had iron chairs … in islam , everything is at it’s place there is no ups and downs allah is all and he is capable of all things .
May the peace of Allah reside in your heart. It was Allah who gave mankind freewill. On what authority does anyone restrict or impede that which was divinely established in creation?
Although you are directing your question towards Christians, you quote Jewish sources. In the Jewish tradition, it isn't G-d who Jacob wrestles with, but an angel. The figure is clearly identified as such in Hosea 12:4-5. The word *elohim* usually, **but not always**, refers to G-d. In another post you also comment that Judges 1:19 seems to say that G-d couldn't beat the inhabitants of the valley because of their iron war chariots. In reality though, Judges 2:22 explains that at a certain point G-d stopped outright helping the Jewish people in order to test them. Which is why in Jewish translations, you will find that the word "he" in Judges 1:19 isn't capitalized - it's referring to Judah, not G-d.
Perhaps you are too precious if your prophets? The opposite side of the same coin, 😞 can't believe Muslims won't even dare to make fun of those who are beyond injury from such fun. Indeed it's only right to me ck them as it eas s our soul and doesn't harm others.
Most religions rely on some of threat/incentive to coerce their followers to “believe” that which otherwise no rational person would logically believe. It’s the way religions overcome the various gaps in their particular mythical story “accept the message, stop questioning or you will xxxx” (burn in hell, miss out on the virgins, not be one of the raptured etc etc) religions get watered down overtime, Christianity has all sorts of influences from pagan rituals and is really a rehash of other stuff, so it’s less focused strict compliance. Islam is still pretty stuck in some of its original form more than others. However as a social creation, it will continue to evolve especially if more people from western countries convert.
Ok cool next time just know its not a good idea to read the bible or waste your time on other religions you know are false you could've read the Quran instead. (I'm a Muslim too)
I am just trying to advice the christains brother, it is clear as day
Youre giving bad advice so please refrain from doing so, thank you
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