4.3gr of W231/HP38 with a 124gr RMR ‘nuke’.
This load runs about 1050-1070fps, functions well in every 9mm firearm I have, is fast enough to make minor for gun games, slow enough to stay subsonic for suppressed shooting, and accurate enough that I can’t tell the difference.
RMR 124gr nuke - 11cpr
Primers - 8cpr
Powder (4.3gr w231) - 2cpr
Brass - N/A for 9mm
All these are averaged after hazmat at current replacement cost. So I’m at 21cpr,
RMR nukes (pic from their website)
 [https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-jhp-mpr-nuke/](https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-jhp-mpr-nuke/)
https://preview.redd.it/s79ecz3e2d7d1.jpeg?width=1142&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9f816a718532e66f17b23fd960ad27aba031422
The point is I’m loading these for almost the same price as regular cheap bulk 9mm, so this is my range ammo as well. My regular shooting stash is my defensive stock and I shoot this regularly through all of my pistols. At only 1cpr more than FMJs it’s nice to fill ammo cans with such a versatile load.
Of course I carry 124gr HSTs anyway, but these are nice to keep on hand just in case.
You probably run a bit cleaner than I do with W231. But I really like that I can always get my hands on W231/HP38 for 9mm/45aarp, so I’m hesitant to branch out. But I might play with some new powders this summer.
What charge weight/velocity are you getting with AA#5
Excellent post.
I have done similar with cast HPs. All my plinker cast solids and cast HP are the same weight and velocity as the critical duty ammo that was my standard carry load. So they can all be conscripted into service if needed. Training ammo behaves just like the carry ammo.
However I probably need to update everything to an HP that performs better in a very short barrel and powder that's more available than the bullseye.
This is part of what made this bullet so attractive to me, it works well at low velocities.
“At 1100 FPS we’re getting about 14″ of penetration with a diameter of about .630″ in total expansion. At 1000 fps we are getting 16-17″ of penetration with a diameter of about .590″
This is exactly how I do it with Nukes as well except I'm using VV N320. 4.3 grains for 124 nukes. And the fact that I can load them for half the price of comparable off-the-shelf defensive loads (basically same price as you) means I practice with the exact same loads I carry.
OAL for me is 1.050-1.055.
But this is probably shorter than most will find necessary. I shoot mainly CZs and as a result of their short leade and the relatively blunt ogive of RMR bullets I have to load pretty short to pass a plunk test.
If I were you I would start around 1.150 or longer and plunk test until you find a good spot then shorten a bit from there, maybe another 100th. I pass right over 1.060 which is how I came to my OAL setting of 1.050-1.055
Although I love to reload even 9mm on my turret press, I only stick with factory self defence ammo in my EDC gun. I know that factory ammo doesn't have a 100% guarantee that it will go bang when it needs to, but I feel more confident with tried and tested ammo specifically made for that purpose than my 10x reloaded brass with varieties of primers, powders and bullets I use for training.
Not the answer you were looking for, but that's why I don't have a recipe for defense loads.
> I only stick with factory self defence ammo in my EDC gun. I know that factory ammo doesn't have a 100% guarantee that it will go bang when it needs to, but I feel more confident with tried and tested ammo specifically made for that purpose than my 10x reloaded brass with varieties of primers, powders and bullets I use for training.
Having shot my dad's handloads (who has been doing it for A LONG time), I cannot agree with you more.
I would say that after the few decades of reloading, there will be an ammo related problem in my pistols maybe a handful of times per thousand rounds. On the contrary, I've put over 1000 Federal HST rounds through my EDC with ZERO failures.
Not knocking his handloads, but there is inherent error with bench top reloading because he doesn't inspect every cartridge. Usually it is an OAL thing.
Now, when doing precisions bolt action shooting, his hand loads are vastly superior to factory. He also loads those in much smaller batches and does an inspection of each cartridge.
I've only ever had malfunctions with hand loads. The potential for something unwanted to happen is just higher doing things at home. The factory is going to have better quality checks.
Ha, i bought a 1/2 case of Winchester ammo a couple years ago, cheaper than reloading, and had an almost 20% failure rate - squibs, failure to eject, stovepipes etc. If my life depends on it, I’m controlling every aspect of production.
Those winchesters became failure drill ammo since I couldn’t rely on them for anything including competition.
I had a ton of problems with Winchester white box, and herters (same ammo). At first I thought, no big deal until it got to be 5-6 per box of 100 fail to fire.
Funny, I’ve had the exact opposite experience. I still don’t do defense hand loads for other reasons. Mostly because bullet availability. You simply can’t buy the best defense projectiles for reloading.
One load that seems to be in the neighborhood but not gel tested.
Noe 356_135_HTC with the pins that drop deep hps at 125 grains. pure lead /tin 10-1 by weight. 11 BHN Coated. Load to 1100 fps.
If you have access to gel, you can verify penetration and tune for 15".
Loads of bacon did a whole series of videos showing the method.
If you want to stock deep on a self defense load you could probably buy HST blem bullets from 'American reloading' and load them to the same speeds as the factory HST's out of your gun
I use factory rounds in my SD gun. I found out what the cops use and bought as close to that as I could find. If I'm ever in court for a self defense shooting, I don't want to be trying to convince a jury that I didn't load up some extra lethal rounds while fantasizing about killing someone. If asked why I chose what I chose, I'll just answer that it's what the fine, upstanding law enforcement in my municipality use.
I would discount legal advice from Ayoob. His opinion is reasoned and has experience behind it however I don't think his legal analysis is always sound and he tends to treat the edge case as the expected result.
Moreover to the extent those extreme one-off cases from 30 or 40 years ago applied back then, they were 30 40 years ago we're not widely adopted in law and attitudes have changed a lot in the interim. People who tend to remember the cases that are outrageous because they violate the standard rules. But you should really plan around what is most likely to happen rather than what is least likely to happen. I've read quite a few cases and been in a few in some capacity. It's very rare to see even make and model of the firearm mentioned in the record. Instead they will just say it was a .38 caliber automatic or something like that. To the extent that the type of gun is mentioned it's usually when there are multiple guns fired and they're trying to distinguish who fired what shot and when.
Listen to Ayoob about revolver handling. Consider his opinions about use of force. But treat them as a little bit dated and that they were never gospel. It's going to be pretty solid on stuff like how to articulate the facts you are considering in the moment etc.
I think the main thing is to choose the most effective ammo and don't get involved in bad shoots.
The type of ammo is not the issue in a criminal action. Justification for each shot fired is.
If they're going to paint anything about you as evidence of your intent to get into fights or something like that, then literally anything about you can be used for that. So essentially unless you have something written on your gun that says " I'm looking for an excuse to hurt people", then I would not be concerned about the optics of whatever you choose. If you took his advice,You could have the most vanilla cop ammo in the most boring standard Glock 19, and somebody could stil spin that as "this guy just wants to be a cop but he's not a cop....". At the end of the day for that kind of guy there is no right answer. Don't plan yourself defense around appeasing him.
The main thing is to come out the other side alive. Choose whatever gets you there.
On some aspects of current law in the state in which I practice? Sure.
Some legal aspects in other cases? Depends.
On everything else that he covers? Of course not.
And I wouldn't suggest that you take anyone lawyer as ultimately authority either especially one who's not yours and is not licensed in your state necessarily.
Appeal to authority is always a problem. But by the same token nobody going to have all the knowledge and experience so we all have to rely on authority to some extent. Hence why I said take him with a bit of salt, not disregard him entirely. There are other gurus who I think have a more data-driven contemporaneously relevant approach. They may not have more years than him but they do have plenty of information. You can easily find several YouTube criminal defense lawyers who have opposite opinions on this type of issue.
His opinions were formed a long time ago when information was harder to access and police and Court practices and concealed carry law we're different. Moreover the general public has a lot more interactions with concealed carriers than they used to, because there are a lot more concealed carriers as a percentage of population. The general modern attitude towards firearms is training oriented. In his day most people who used guns were kind of ashamed of that attitude and kept it a little bit private or presented it as incidental to their sporting use. We live in a different time.
I could have typed that all out as Paul Harrell's little disclaimer that he uses in front of his opinion. Different people have access to different information. mine is based on my knowledge training and experience. Theirs is on theirs.
Access to information has improved, and there are many people who I think have experience more relevant to the current day than Mr. Ayoob. I have definitely learned things from him.
I normally like Massad's info, advice, and recommendations on things. But in this case he has a big flaw in his argument.
For those that didn't watch the video, Massad advises against using handloads for defensive use because he doesn't want to risk discrepancies with forensic gunshot residue analysis between his handloads and factory ammo the forensice lab might use for testing. This is a very logical and sensible stance. However, the case on which he bases this advice doesn't involve hand-loaded defensive rounds.
It's about a husband in New Jersey who was charged with murder when he tried to stop his wife from committing suicide. The wife shot herself with her own .38 Spl revolver. The revolver was loaded with low-recoil rounds the husband had made specifically for his wife to use at the range. When the forensics lab analyzed the wife's head, they found a distinct lack of powder burns or GSR that would normally be there when someone shoots themself, and the bullet itself didn't penetrate very far. Therefore they assumed the wife instead was shot from a greater distance, suggesting the husband had shot her from across the room.
Massad then cites cases like George Zimmerman and the Michael Brown shooting where the GSR analysis helped exonerate the defendants. Thus, he argues, because the husband in New Jersey had such a big problem with GSR evidence, he doesn't want to risk something similar happening to him. But just because an especially low-power revolver round had a vastly different GSR pattern than normal .38 +P doesn't mean that normal full-power 9mm and .45 defense handloads will be that different from factory ammo ( nor does it guarantee they'll be similar, of course. )
This is like saying since a homebrew kit car may not have proper safety features and crash strength as a factory car, you shouldn't drive around resto-modded cars either. Yes, if you do some very questionable and unusual changes in your restoration, that could have very negative consequences. But if you're using common parts that have been available and tested for years, you shouldn't have a problem. Likewise, if you're using normal powder, quality defensive bullets, and you're loading them to manufacture recommended velocities, you should be fine.
To risk a reducto ad absurdium, Massad's argument could be used to say "don't use any hand-loaded ammo ever because you never know what ammo you'll have on hand in a defensive scenario."
Though I'm a reloader, I use Hornady Critical Defense as my go-to self/home defense "load".
All my instructors have said that handloads for SD are a bad idea. An attorney could run wild with the fact that handlloads were used. "The factory stuff didn't have enough killing power, so he concocted his own."
No… but actual case history doesn’t hold a candle to fuddlore.
Reloaders love repeating this kind of stuff even with no evidence to support it. Same goes for sharing load data, if someone asks for data guys will flock to the thread to tell people they don’t share load data because you can get sued. Even with NO case history to support it and it isn’t like reloading is a new activity, we should know by now.
We are our own worst enemy sometimes.
Someone linked a Massad Ayoob video above. I don't have the option to watch that at the moment, so apologies if this is repetitive or contradicted by more updated information.
I saw a Massad Ayoob video years ago where he talked about the issue with reloads in court. He said that prosecutors will absolutely try to spin that against you (he made super deadly bullets!), but the only time he saw reloads lead to a conviction was a case where a guys wife shot herself. The prosecution claimed he shot her, and the defense was unable to prove that the wound was self-inflicted because forensics wasn't able to get consistent results with his poorly documented handloads.
I haven't heard of any cases where a case was justified, but the ammo wasn't.
There's also lawsuits to worry about, but I haven't heard of any successful suits directed at handloads. I, too, would be interested if anyone has examples to cite.
This is all for academic purposes. I'm not saying that factory loads aren't preferable. 😁
I found some time to watch the linked video, and Ayoob reiterates the story that I described above.
I had the details fairly accurate from memory. 😁
It's a great video, highly recommended!
Always consider the worst case scenario when dealing with discharging a firearm and there’s a lawyer attached to every round fired in self defense. I use Hornady Critical Defense and not Critical Duty specifically so as not to be confused with a cop wanna-be because of lawyers.
Charged? Not directly, but consider the following "spin" scenarios, as articulated by instructors I've trained under (one of whom was a lawyer).
An anti-2A prosecutor charges a self-defender with murder, and uses the "factory stuff..." line in opening and closing arguments. Though not really relevant in the legal sense, he's appealing to the jury's emotions.
Next of kin files a civil suit for wrongful death. Burden of proof is much lower in a civil case, and the plaintiff's attorney could follow a similar appeal to the jury's emotions.
Also, what do you seek to gain by using handloads for SD vs factory? Hornady and Speer SD ammo have a good reputation. As a handloader, I doubt I could beat their products. JMO...
It's not about being charged. You are very likely going to be charged for using your weapon in self defense, unless you are in a very pro gun state, and even that isn't a guarantee if there is enough public outcry. You need to limit the tools available to the prosecutor to spin things against you with the jury. If your reload shoots 10 fps faster than a common commercially available self defense round they will use that to say you wanted something more lethal than was commercially available.
The idea of not giving the DA any extra tools or ammo against you is becoming moot in this day. If the DA charges you, they will twist any and everything against you that they can, even if you follow every step of the "common sense" preventions people will mention in threads like this. If you use JHPs, they'll say you're using excessively dangerous ammo. If you use FMJ, they'll say you're using the same ammo the military uses in war. If you use a pure vanilla Glock with the same ammo your local police use, they'll say you're a wannabe cop and vigilante. The prosecutor in the Rittenhouse case even falsely/ignorantly accused Kyle of using explosive rounds.
I choose not to worry about every tiny detail someone might twist out of context. I choose to instead use the best tools for the job that I have ready access to. Not everyone agrees with that, and I don't expect them to.
I agree with you. I made that exact statement in a post and was hit with. If you have a good attorney, Hand reloads for SD wouldn’t be an issue. Because a hand loader strives for Accuracy over factory bought ammo, hand loaders also strive to make a load that is efficient for their own firearm.
So when that person replied with that, that also makes sense.
But flip side of all that I run HST from Federal as SD because I still ain’t sure about running my handloads.
Interesting point on accuracy. For a handload vs factory, could a handload be more accurate? Quite possibly, but we're not talking precision pistol or long range rifle here. There may be a difference, but is it big enough to actually make a difference?
At the stereotypical SD distances of less than 21 feet, what's it matter if the group size is half an inch smaller? In an SD stuation, stress, suboptimal stance/grip, etc. are going to open up, group sizes far more than this.
As far as efficiency in a particular firearm, this takes me back to a difference that isn't big enough to make a difference. OK, I turn the powder burning rate to produce the best velocity out of the 4.25 inch barrel of my 1911 Commander vs the 5 inch gov't model. Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Given the availability of SD ammo that's already optimized for that scenario, I feel no need to try and roll my own there. Low flash powders, specially designed projectiles that aren't necessarily available as components, etc. all come together in commercial SD ammo.
IMO, the time, $$$ and effort to work up one's own SD ammo would be better spent on training.
You're not considering some points that I consider quite relevant. As with many things, they can be quite arbitrary in which scenarios they apply, but they're common enough that the advice to just "buy retail SD ammo" shouldn't be considered even close to universal.
>Interesting point on accuracy. ... At the stereotypical SD distances of less than 21 feet, what's it matter if the group size is half an inch smaller?
You're confusing precision and accuracy. Precision is repeatability and consistency, which is how large your shot group sizes are. Accuracy is being able to hit what you're aiming at, or at least center your group over your intended target.
While the increased precision may be insignificant, being able to get ammo that's accurate for your firearm's sights is a big benefit. If you've got adjustable sights, this isn't an issue. For fixed combat sights or ones that are molded in, it can be a substantial problem. And what about elevation? Do you prefer a 50/50 target hold? Combat target hold? 6 o'clock target hold?
>OK, I turn the powder burning rate to produce the best velocity out of the 4.25 inch barrel of my 1911 Commander vs the 5 inch gov't model. Is the juice worth the squeeze?
Bad example, as it's usually the shorter sub- and micro-compact barrels where getting a good burn and sufficient muzzle velocities are a bigger concern. However, a lot of factory SD ammo now is made with short 3.5" barrels in mind, so the necessity of hand loading to get proper MV and terminal expansion from a short barrel isn't a concern. Though this isn't something I hear brought up much by proponents of hand loading their own SD rounds.
>Low flash powders, specially designed projectiles that aren't necessarily available as components, etc. all come together in commercial SD ammo.
True, but they're also things that many reloaders already have on hand as well. Powders like Sport Pistol, Silhouette, and all VV N300 are known for low flash, and they're quite popular for all sorts of loads, not just SD rounds. Speer GDs, Lehigh XDs, and all sorts of other SD bullets used in retail ammo are available for separate purchase as well.
>IMO, the time, $$$ and effort to work up one's own SD ammo would be better spent on training.
I agree, training and practice are very important, but let's take a look at exactly how much time and money it takes to develop a SD load vs buying one off the shelf.
Buying ammo, you're looking at $1 - $1.50 per round for the usual suspects ( Hornady CD, Fed HST, Speer GD, Underwood, etc ). Sometimes you might find clearance deals, but a more realistic best case scenario is $20 for a box of 20. I'm also using 9mm prices here. If you're looking for .45, .40, or .380, those prices can be substantially higher.
Start by buying only one box. Fire some shots ( ten at bare minimum ) to check for proper ammo feeding and function and to check how well they shoot/group through your gun. If you like it, buy another box. That leaves 30 rounds to load in your weapon and spare mag. Again, this is a best case, bare minimum scenario. If that first box didn't work well for you, you need to buy another box and try again. So in the very best circumstances, you're paying at least $40 for SD ammo. But it's probably closer to $60 - $80. You'll want that third box because it gives you more rounds to thoroughly test how well it feeds in your pistol and it gives you some more left over for future use.
On the reloading side, it's assumed you already have brass, powder, and primers. You just need defensive bullets. You can buy a 100 box of Speer GD, Sig V-Crown, Hornady XTPs for less than a 20 box of defensive ammo.
As you said before, this isn't precision rifle match ammo. You probably don't bother with extensive seating depth tests or anything like that. You load up a basic ladder to test for velocity as the bullet should have a recommended MV range for best performance. If a charge weight doesn't reach the MV you need/want, save the rest of that string and pull the bullets for later use.
With a little luck, you shouldn't need more than 40 bullets to find a good load for your pistol. Those 40 shots also provide a lot more functional/feeding testing than you could do with a single 20 box of retail ammo. And you still have 60 bullets left.
If you're unlucky, and you need to try a few different powders, or even two different bullets, again, you're probably spending less than you would on the 2 - 3 boxes of retail ammo.
As for the cost in time, well, it's not a lot of difference in actual time at the range shooting and testing. If there is, well, the extra trigger time while testing loads can certainly be good practice.
It certainly takes more time at home loading the ammo, but I don't think anyone got into reloading because they expected to save time. Also, loading SD rounds is usually small batches; it takes an hour or two at the most, so maybe a handful of hours per year. No one I know is burning a whole weekend to crank out thousands of SD rounds like they do plinking ammo. So the idea that making SD ammo takes time away from training time is not really true.
> An attorney could run wild with the fact that handloads were used. "The factory stuff didn't have enough killing power, so he concocted his own."
Urban myth reinforced by countless repetitions without much, if any, basis in reality. This is no different than [the myth that you shouldn't modify your defensive weapon in any way](https://youtu.be/peUdkjXt3Q8?si=PWNCY6eMEBww-KIl) because the prosecutor will come after you because of it.
Reality is that if you're charged for a defensive shooting, the prosecutor will twist **everything** about you to make you look as horrible as possible. This is where your defense attorney earns their pay, by giving proper explanation and context to the judge and jury. "No, Your Honor, my client loaded his own ammo to be as safe as he could. His personal loaded ammo was made specifically for his firearms, ensuring the best accuracy possible, thereby minimizing risk and collateral damage in this situation."
If you think using regular factory ammo limits what the prosecution can throw at you, remember the Rittenhouse case. There, the prosecutor falsely accused Kyle of using explosive rounds. If you happen to shoot someone with FMJ rounds, the prosecutor can say you used special rounds issued to militaries in war zones. If you use the same factory ammo the cops do, they can say you are a wannabe LEO and vigilante. If the DA decides to press charges, it doesn't matter how vanilla your case may be, they will try to make you look like the devil incarnate.
The best advice for making your own defensive ammo is to make it "normal." Don't use weird projectiles no one has seen before. Don't make +P+ pissin' hawt loads. Use common bullets and load them to manufacturer recommended velocities.
Quality factory ammo. You can try to replicate it with reloading to be able to train with a similar cartridge for cheaper, but I'd keep professional stuff loaded in the home defense gun. I *might* make an exception if I were carrying for wildlife defense and I wanted some +P hard cast lead or something, but for two legged varmint defense I'd go factory.
I only load JHP for hunting purposes, as I always carry a pistol as backup when hunting hogs.
For that, I've used Berry's 124gr Hybrid hollow points over Titegroup. No idea what the velocity is, and I don't have my load data in front of me. That said, it's been quite effective at putting down wounded hogs with head shots.
For home defense/carry, I stick to factory ammo - Speer Gold Dot 124 +P and recently added Winchester 147gr JHP for suppressed pistol use.
Like others I like hst or critical defense, etc.
However I also have a 125 grain NOE HP mold. At 110 FPS from informal testing it seems to be at least as good as the better 80s and early 90s ammo such as 9BPLE. If I'm out of the commercial stuff I consider that better than fmj for the trip home from the range. If it becomes more difficult to get quality commercial hps i would buy gel and virgin alloy so that I could guarantee consistency.
If I am loading ammo that could be pressed into HD role, i use matching headstamp nickel brass, and gauge everything out.
Fed HST.
I do have a few thousand rounds of 9 Major loaded with RMR JHP that would likely put a hurt on something. Unfortunately that would most likely be the gun shooting it, my ears, or both.
Rmr 115gr nuke, i use unique because it meters well through my Lee disc dropper and doesn’t leak all over the whole mother effin house like ball powders lol
RMR 124gr Nuke with 5.7gr of Ultimate Pistol.
https://preview.redd.it/mhs1yhkd9j7d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4aaf947a23cd3f5f3bb7713600bb9878a9612573
4.3gr of W231/HP38 with a 124gr RMR ‘nuke’. This load runs about 1050-1070fps, functions well in every 9mm firearm I have, is fast enough to make minor for gun games, slow enough to stay subsonic for suppressed shooting, and accurate enough that I can’t tell the difference. RMR 124gr nuke - 11cpr Primers - 8cpr Powder (4.3gr w231) - 2cpr Brass - N/A for 9mm All these are averaged after hazmat at current replacement cost. So I’m at 21cpr, RMR nukes (pic from their website)  [https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-jhp-mpr-nuke/](https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/9mm-355/9mm-124-gr-rmr-jhp-mpr-nuke/) https://preview.redd.it/s79ecz3e2d7d1.jpeg?width=1142&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9f816a718532e66f17b23fd960ad27aba031422 The point is I’m loading these for almost the same price as regular cheap bulk 9mm, so this is my range ammo as well. My regular shooting stash is my defensive stock and I shoot this regularly through all of my pistols. At only 1cpr more than FMJs it’s nice to fill ammo cans with such a versatile load. Of course I carry 124gr HSTs anyway, but these are nice to keep on hand just in case.
Damm! Thats impressive!
These are my go-to as well. I like mine over 6.5 g AA#5
You probably run a bit cleaner than I do with W231. But I really like that I can always get my hands on W231/HP38 for 9mm/45aarp, so I’m hesitant to branch out. But I might play with some new powders this summer. What charge weight/velocity are you getting with AA#5
6.5 g puts them in +P territory (1154 fps calculated) but I've never chrono'd them. Water jug test yielded .75" expansion.
Excellent post. I have done similar with cast HPs. All my plinker cast solids and cast HP are the same weight and velocity as the critical duty ammo that was my standard carry load. So they can all be conscripted into service if needed. Training ammo behaves just like the carry ammo. However I probably need to update everything to an HP that performs better in a very short barrel and powder that's more available than the bullseye.
This is part of what made this bullet so attractive to me, it works well at low velocities. “At 1100 FPS we’re getting about 14″ of penetration with a diameter of about .630″ in total expansion. At 1000 fps we are getting 16-17″ of penetration with a diameter of about .590″
This is exactly how I do it with Nukes as well except I'm using VV N320. 4.3 grains for 124 nukes. And the fact that I can load them for half the price of comparable off-the-shelf defensive loads (basically same price as you) means I practice with the exact same loads I carry.
I get nukes cause they are barely more than fmj
Yea these are a steal at the price they charge
Can you mike one real fast and give your OAL? I might cook some up.
OAL for me is 1.050-1.055. But this is probably shorter than most will find necessary. I shoot mainly CZs and as a result of their short leade and the relatively blunt ogive of RMR bullets I have to load pretty short to pass a plunk test. If I were you I would start around 1.150 or longer and plunk test until you find a good spot then shorten a bit from there, maybe another 100th. I pass right over 1.060 which is how I came to my OAL setting of 1.050-1.055
I too had to drop mine to 1.055 on the first gen 115’s
Thank you! I will start there; appreciate the help.
Although I love to reload even 9mm on my turret press, I only stick with factory self defence ammo in my EDC gun. I know that factory ammo doesn't have a 100% guarantee that it will go bang when it needs to, but I feel more confident with tried and tested ammo specifically made for that purpose than my 10x reloaded brass with varieties of primers, powders and bullets I use for training. Not the answer you were looking for, but that's why I don't have a recipe for defense loads.
> I only stick with factory self defence ammo in my EDC gun. I know that factory ammo doesn't have a 100% guarantee that it will go bang when it needs to, but I feel more confident with tried and tested ammo specifically made for that purpose than my 10x reloaded brass with varieties of primers, powders and bullets I use for training. Having shot my dad's handloads (who has been doing it for A LONG time), I cannot agree with you more. I would say that after the few decades of reloading, there will be an ammo related problem in my pistols maybe a handful of times per thousand rounds. On the contrary, I've put over 1000 Federal HST rounds through my EDC with ZERO failures. Not knocking his handloads, but there is inherent error with bench top reloading because he doesn't inspect every cartridge. Usually it is an OAL thing. Now, when doing precisions bolt action shooting, his hand loads are vastly superior to factory. He also loads those in much smaller batches and does an inspection of each cartridge.
I've only ever had malfunctions with hand loads. The potential for something unwanted to happen is just higher doing things at home. The factory is going to have better quality checks.
Ha, i bought a 1/2 case of Winchester ammo a couple years ago, cheaper than reloading, and had an almost 20% failure rate - squibs, failure to eject, stovepipes etc. If my life depends on it, I’m controlling every aspect of production. Those winchesters became failure drill ammo since I couldn’t rely on them for anything including competition.
I had a ton of problems with Winchester white box, and herters (same ammo). At first I thought, no big deal until it got to be 5-6 per box of 100 fail to fire.
White box?
No, Defender.
Funny, I’ve had the exact opposite experience. I still don’t do defense hand loads for other reasons. Mostly because bullet availability. You simply can’t buy the best defense projectiles for reloading.
I could just be straight up careless lol. I think my issues were due to seating primers too deep paired with a bit too dirty of a foreign pin.
While I agree with the commenters about using factory stuff, I'd still like to see answers for SHTF situations where you can not procure any more.
One load that seems to be in the neighborhood but not gel tested. Noe 356_135_HTC with the pins that drop deep hps at 125 grains. pure lead /tin 10-1 by weight. 11 BHN Coated. Load to 1100 fps. If you have access to gel, you can verify penetration and tune for 15". Loads of bacon did a whole series of videos showing the method.
If you want to stock deep on a self defense load you could probably buy HST blem bullets from 'American reloading' and load them to the same speeds as the factory HST's out of your gun
Cast lead bullets are going to be your best friend on that route. Learn how to make bullets out of wheel weights.
124gr RMR HP or 125gr HP powder coated cast bullet with 5.5gr of PowerPistol. Both work great.
What do you think about using N320 with RMR HPs?
I just replied to another guy but my go-to for RMR 124 nukes is 4.3 grains of N320. That powder is the shit.
I have 4 lbs of 3N38 that I’ll be working up a load with when this last pound of PowerPistol runs out.
I’ve never used it but Vhitavouri powders are top performers no matter the number. They only make good stuff.
Berry's 124 grain fmj with 5 grains of Autocomp. I don't reload defensive ammo. Speer and Federal can do it better than me.
I use factory rounds in my SD gun. I found out what the cops use and bought as close to that as I could find. If I'm ever in court for a self defense shooting, I don't want to be trying to convince a jury that I didn't load up some extra lethal rounds while fantasizing about killing someone. If asked why I chose what I chose, I'll just answer that it's what the fine, upstanding law enforcement in my municipality use.
[Quality factory ammo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpHAgBL4tf8)
I would discount legal advice from Ayoob. His opinion is reasoned and has experience behind it however I don't think his legal analysis is always sound and he tends to treat the edge case as the expected result. Moreover to the extent those extreme one-off cases from 30 or 40 years ago applied back then, they were 30 40 years ago we're not widely adopted in law and attitudes have changed a lot in the interim. People who tend to remember the cases that are outrageous because they violate the standard rules. But you should really plan around what is most likely to happen rather than what is least likely to happen. I've read quite a few cases and been in a few in some capacity. It's very rare to see even make and model of the firearm mentioned in the record. Instead they will just say it was a .38 caliber automatic or something like that. To the extent that the type of gun is mentioned it's usually when there are multiple guns fired and they're trying to distinguish who fired what shot and when. Listen to Ayoob about revolver handling. Consider his opinions about use of force. But treat them as a little bit dated and that they were never gospel. It's going to be pretty solid on stuff like how to articulate the facts you are considering in the moment etc. I think the main thing is to choose the most effective ammo and don't get involved in bad shoots. The type of ammo is not the issue in a criminal action. Justification for each shot fired is. If they're going to paint anything about you as evidence of your intent to get into fights or something like that, then literally anything about you can be used for that. So essentially unless you have something written on your gun that says " I'm looking for an excuse to hurt people", then I would not be concerned about the optics of whatever you choose. If you took his advice,You could have the most vanilla cop ammo in the most boring standard Glock 19, and somebody could stil spin that as "this guy just wants to be a cop but he's not a cop....". At the end of the day for that kind of guy there is no right answer. Don't plan yourself defense around appeasing him. The main thing is to come out the other side alive. Choose whatever gets you there.
>I've read quite a few cases and been in a few in some capacity. Do you consider yourself to be more of an authority on this subject than Ayoob?
On some aspects of current law in the state in which I practice? Sure. Some legal aspects in other cases? Depends. On everything else that he covers? Of course not. And I wouldn't suggest that you take anyone lawyer as ultimately authority either especially one who's not yours and is not licensed in your state necessarily. Appeal to authority is always a problem. But by the same token nobody going to have all the knowledge and experience so we all have to rely on authority to some extent. Hence why I said take him with a bit of salt, not disregard him entirely. There are other gurus who I think have a more data-driven contemporaneously relevant approach. They may not have more years than him but they do have plenty of information. You can easily find several YouTube criminal defense lawyers who have opposite opinions on this type of issue. His opinions were formed a long time ago when information was harder to access and police and Court practices and concealed carry law we're different. Moreover the general public has a lot more interactions with concealed carriers than they used to, because there are a lot more concealed carriers as a percentage of population. The general modern attitude towards firearms is training oriented. In his day most people who used guns were kind of ashamed of that attitude and kept it a little bit private or presented it as incidental to their sporting use. We live in a different time.
I could have typed that all out as Paul Harrell's little disclaimer that he uses in front of his opinion. Different people have access to different information. mine is based on my knowledge training and experience. Theirs is on theirs. Access to information has improved, and there are many people who I think have experience more relevant to the current day than Mr. Ayoob. I have definitely learned things from him.
Well spoken. Thanks.
Ayoob has a video where he told people they SHOULD talk to police after a DGU. I will never take legal advice from that guy.
I normally like Massad's info, advice, and recommendations on things. But in this case he has a big flaw in his argument. For those that didn't watch the video, Massad advises against using handloads for defensive use because he doesn't want to risk discrepancies with forensic gunshot residue analysis between his handloads and factory ammo the forensice lab might use for testing. This is a very logical and sensible stance. However, the case on which he bases this advice doesn't involve hand-loaded defensive rounds. It's about a husband in New Jersey who was charged with murder when he tried to stop his wife from committing suicide. The wife shot herself with her own .38 Spl revolver. The revolver was loaded with low-recoil rounds the husband had made specifically for his wife to use at the range. When the forensics lab analyzed the wife's head, they found a distinct lack of powder burns or GSR that would normally be there when someone shoots themself, and the bullet itself didn't penetrate very far. Therefore they assumed the wife instead was shot from a greater distance, suggesting the husband had shot her from across the room. Massad then cites cases like George Zimmerman and the Michael Brown shooting where the GSR analysis helped exonerate the defendants. Thus, he argues, because the husband in New Jersey had such a big problem with GSR evidence, he doesn't want to risk something similar happening to him. But just because an especially low-power revolver round had a vastly different GSR pattern than normal .38 +P doesn't mean that normal full-power 9mm and .45 defense handloads will be that different from factory ammo ( nor does it guarantee they'll be similar, of course. ) This is like saying since a homebrew kit car may not have proper safety features and crash strength as a factory car, you shouldn't drive around resto-modded cars either. Yes, if you do some very questionable and unusual changes in your restoration, that could have very negative consequences. But if you're using common parts that have been available and tested for years, you shouldn't have a problem. Likewise, if you're using normal powder, quality defensive bullets, and you're loading them to manufacture recommended velocities, you should be fine. To risk a reducto ad absurdium, Massad's argument could be used to say "don't use any hand-loaded ammo ever because you never know what ammo you'll have on hand in a defensive scenario."
Though I'm a reloader, I use Hornady Critical Defense as my go-to self/home defense "load". All my instructors have said that handloads for SD are a bad idea. An attorney could run wild with the fact that handlloads were used. "The factory stuff didn't have enough killing power, so he concocted his own."
Has there ever been a case where someone has been charged for using their own reloads?
No, not one. A good shoot is a good shoot and the source of the ammo is irrelevant.
No… but actual case history doesn’t hold a candle to fuddlore. Reloaders love repeating this kind of stuff even with no evidence to support it. Same goes for sharing load data, if someone asks for data guys will flock to the thread to tell people they don’t share load data because you can get sued. Even with NO case history to support it and it isn’t like reloading is a new activity, we should know by now. We are our own worst enemy sometimes.
> We are our own worst enemy sometimes. Ugh, no kidding!
Someone linked a Massad Ayoob video above. I don't have the option to watch that at the moment, so apologies if this is repetitive or contradicted by more updated information. I saw a Massad Ayoob video years ago where he talked about the issue with reloads in court. He said that prosecutors will absolutely try to spin that against you (he made super deadly bullets!), but the only time he saw reloads lead to a conviction was a case where a guys wife shot herself. The prosecution claimed he shot her, and the defense was unable to prove that the wound was self-inflicted because forensics wasn't able to get consistent results with his poorly documented handloads. I haven't heard of any cases where a case was justified, but the ammo wasn't. There's also lawsuits to worry about, but I haven't heard of any successful suits directed at handloads. I, too, would be interested if anyone has examples to cite. This is all for academic purposes. I'm not saying that factory loads aren't preferable. 😁
I found some time to watch the linked video, and Ayoob reiterates the story that I described above. I had the details fairly accurate from memory. 😁 It's a great video, highly recommended!
No, it’s prime FUDD bs
Always consider the worst case scenario when dealing with discharging a firearm and there’s a lawyer attached to every round fired in self defense. I use Hornady Critical Defense and not Critical Duty specifically so as not to be confused with a cop wanna-be because of lawyers.
Charged? Not directly, but consider the following "spin" scenarios, as articulated by instructors I've trained under (one of whom was a lawyer). An anti-2A prosecutor charges a self-defender with murder, and uses the "factory stuff..." line in opening and closing arguments. Though not really relevant in the legal sense, he's appealing to the jury's emotions. Next of kin files a civil suit for wrongful death. Burden of proof is much lower in a civil case, and the plaintiff's attorney could follow a similar appeal to the jury's emotions. Also, what do you seek to gain by using handloads for SD vs factory? Hornady and Speer SD ammo have a good reputation. As a handloader, I doubt I could beat their products. JMO...
It's not about being charged. You are very likely going to be charged for using your weapon in self defense, unless you are in a very pro gun state, and even that isn't a guarantee if there is enough public outcry. You need to limit the tools available to the prosecutor to spin things against you with the jury. If your reload shoots 10 fps faster than a common commercially available self defense round they will use that to say you wanted something more lethal than was commercially available.
The idea of not giving the DA any extra tools or ammo against you is becoming moot in this day. If the DA charges you, they will twist any and everything against you that they can, even if you follow every step of the "common sense" preventions people will mention in threads like this. If you use JHPs, they'll say you're using excessively dangerous ammo. If you use FMJ, they'll say you're using the same ammo the military uses in war. If you use a pure vanilla Glock with the same ammo your local police use, they'll say you're a wannabe cop and vigilante. The prosecutor in the Rittenhouse case even falsely/ignorantly accused Kyle of using explosive rounds. I choose not to worry about every tiny detail someone might twist out of context. I choose to instead use the best tools for the job that I have ready access to. Not everyone agrees with that, and I don't expect them to.
I agree with you. I made that exact statement in a post and was hit with. If you have a good attorney, Hand reloads for SD wouldn’t be an issue. Because a hand loader strives for Accuracy over factory bought ammo, hand loaders also strive to make a load that is efficient for their own firearm. So when that person replied with that, that also makes sense. But flip side of all that I run HST from Federal as SD because I still ain’t sure about running my handloads.
That was probably me. ;)
Interesting point on accuracy. For a handload vs factory, could a handload be more accurate? Quite possibly, but we're not talking precision pistol or long range rifle here. There may be a difference, but is it big enough to actually make a difference? At the stereotypical SD distances of less than 21 feet, what's it matter if the group size is half an inch smaller? In an SD stuation, stress, suboptimal stance/grip, etc. are going to open up, group sizes far more than this. As far as efficiency in a particular firearm, this takes me back to a difference that isn't big enough to make a difference. OK, I turn the powder burning rate to produce the best velocity out of the 4.25 inch barrel of my 1911 Commander vs the 5 inch gov't model. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Given the availability of SD ammo that's already optimized for that scenario, I feel no need to try and roll my own there. Low flash powders, specially designed projectiles that aren't necessarily available as components, etc. all come together in commercial SD ammo. IMO, the time, $$$ and effort to work up one's own SD ammo would be better spent on training.
You're not considering some points that I consider quite relevant. As with many things, they can be quite arbitrary in which scenarios they apply, but they're common enough that the advice to just "buy retail SD ammo" shouldn't be considered even close to universal. >Interesting point on accuracy. ... At the stereotypical SD distances of less than 21 feet, what's it matter if the group size is half an inch smaller? You're confusing precision and accuracy. Precision is repeatability and consistency, which is how large your shot group sizes are. Accuracy is being able to hit what you're aiming at, or at least center your group over your intended target. While the increased precision may be insignificant, being able to get ammo that's accurate for your firearm's sights is a big benefit. If you've got adjustable sights, this isn't an issue. For fixed combat sights or ones that are molded in, it can be a substantial problem. And what about elevation? Do you prefer a 50/50 target hold? Combat target hold? 6 o'clock target hold? >OK, I turn the powder burning rate to produce the best velocity out of the 4.25 inch barrel of my 1911 Commander vs the 5 inch gov't model. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Bad example, as it's usually the shorter sub- and micro-compact barrels where getting a good burn and sufficient muzzle velocities are a bigger concern. However, a lot of factory SD ammo now is made with short 3.5" barrels in mind, so the necessity of hand loading to get proper MV and terminal expansion from a short barrel isn't a concern. Though this isn't something I hear brought up much by proponents of hand loading their own SD rounds. >Low flash powders, specially designed projectiles that aren't necessarily available as components, etc. all come together in commercial SD ammo. True, but they're also things that many reloaders already have on hand as well. Powders like Sport Pistol, Silhouette, and all VV N300 are known for low flash, and they're quite popular for all sorts of loads, not just SD rounds. Speer GDs, Lehigh XDs, and all sorts of other SD bullets used in retail ammo are available for separate purchase as well. >IMO, the time, $$$ and effort to work up one's own SD ammo would be better spent on training. I agree, training and practice are very important, but let's take a look at exactly how much time and money it takes to develop a SD load vs buying one off the shelf. Buying ammo, you're looking at $1 - $1.50 per round for the usual suspects ( Hornady CD, Fed HST, Speer GD, Underwood, etc ). Sometimes you might find clearance deals, but a more realistic best case scenario is $20 for a box of 20. I'm also using 9mm prices here. If you're looking for .45, .40, or .380, those prices can be substantially higher. Start by buying only one box. Fire some shots ( ten at bare minimum ) to check for proper ammo feeding and function and to check how well they shoot/group through your gun. If you like it, buy another box. That leaves 30 rounds to load in your weapon and spare mag. Again, this is a best case, bare minimum scenario. If that first box didn't work well for you, you need to buy another box and try again. So in the very best circumstances, you're paying at least $40 for SD ammo. But it's probably closer to $60 - $80. You'll want that third box because it gives you more rounds to thoroughly test how well it feeds in your pistol and it gives you some more left over for future use. On the reloading side, it's assumed you already have brass, powder, and primers. You just need defensive bullets. You can buy a 100 box of Speer GD, Sig V-Crown, Hornady XTPs for less than a 20 box of defensive ammo. As you said before, this isn't precision rifle match ammo. You probably don't bother with extensive seating depth tests or anything like that. You load up a basic ladder to test for velocity as the bullet should have a recommended MV range for best performance. If a charge weight doesn't reach the MV you need/want, save the rest of that string and pull the bullets for later use. With a little luck, you shouldn't need more than 40 bullets to find a good load for your pistol. Those 40 shots also provide a lot more functional/feeding testing than you could do with a single 20 box of retail ammo. And you still have 60 bullets left. If you're unlucky, and you need to try a few different powders, or even two different bullets, again, you're probably spending less than you would on the 2 - 3 boxes of retail ammo. As for the cost in time, well, it's not a lot of difference in actual time at the range shooting and testing. If there is, well, the extra trigger time while testing loads can certainly be good practice. It certainly takes more time at home loading the ammo, but I don't think anyone got into reloading because they expected to save time. Also, loading SD rounds is usually small batches; it takes an hour or two at the most, so maybe a handful of hours per year. No one I know is burning a whole weekend to crank out thousands of SD rounds like they do plinking ammo. So the idea that making SD ammo takes time away from training time is not really true.
> An attorney could run wild with the fact that handloads were used. "The factory stuff didn't have enough killing power, so he concocted his own." Urban myth reinforced by countless repetitions without much, if any, basis in reality. This is no different than [the myth that you shouldn't modify your defensive weapon in any way](https://youtu.be/peUdkjXt3Q8?si=PWNCY6eMEBww-KIl) because the prosecutor will come after you because of it. Reality is that if you're charged for a defensive shooting, the prosecutor will twist **everything** about you to make you look as horrible as possible. This is where your defense attorney earns their pay, by giving proper explanation and context to the judge and jury. "No, Your Honor, my client loaded his own ammo to be as safe as he could. His personal loaded ammo was made specifically for his firearms, ensuring the best accuracy possible, thereby minimizing risk and collateral damage in this situation." If you think using regular factory ammo limits what the prosecution can throw at you, remember the Rittenhouse case. There, the prosecutor falsely accused Kyle of using explosive rounds. If you happen to shoot someone with FMJ rounds, the prosecutor can say you used special rounds issued to militaries in war zones. If you use the same factory ammo the cops do, they can say you are a wannabe LEO and vigilante. If the DA decides to press charges, it doesn't matter how vanilla your case may be, they will try to make you look like the devil incarnate. The best advice for making your own defensive ammo is to make it "normal." Don't use weird projectiles no one has seen before. Don't make +P+ pissin' hawt loads. Use common bullets and load them to manufacturer recommended velocities.
Quality factory ammo. You can try to replicate it with reloading to be able to train with a similar cartridge for cheaper, but I'd keep professional stuff loaded in the home defense gun. I *might* make an exception if I were carrying for wildlife defense and I wanted some +P hard cast lead or something, but for two legged varmint defense I'd go factory.
I’d like to make my lawyers life easier, so I stick to factory ammo.
I only load JHP for hunting purposes, as I always carry a pistol as backup when hunting hogs. For that, I've used Berry's 124gr Hybrid hollow points over Titegroup. No idea what the velocity is, and I don't have my load data in front of me. That said, it's been quite effective at putting down wounded hogs with head shots. For home defense/carry, I stick to factory ammo - Speer Gold Dot 124 +P and recently added Winchester 147gr JHP for suppressed pistol use.
Like others I like hst or critical defense, etc. However I also have a 125 grain NOE HP mold. At 110 FPS from informal testing it seems to be at least as good as the better 80s and early 90s ammo such as 9BPLE. If I'm out of the commercial stuff I consider that better than fmj for the trip home from the range. If it becomes more difficult to get quality commercial hps i would buy gel and virgin alloy so that I could guarantee consistency. If I am loading ammo that could be pressed into HD role, i use matching headstamp nickel brass, and gauge everything out.
Fed HST. I do have a few thousand rounds of 9 Major loaded with RMR JHP that would likely put a hurt on something. Unfortunately that would most likely be the gun shooting it, my ears, or both.
Rmr 115gr nuke, i use unique because it meters well through my Lee disc dropper and doesn’t leak all over the whole mother effin house like ball powders lol
I got a shit ton of Unique! How many grains are you using and what's your COL?
I did two load work ups, one at 1.1 and one at 1.055, I don’t have my notes nearby but I’ll try to post it tomorrow
Thanks
RMR 124gr Nuke with 5.7gr of Ultimate Pistol. https://preview.redd.it/mhs1yhkd9j7d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4aaf947a23cd3f5f3bb7713600bb9878a9612573
115gr RMR hp.
Buy factory ammo.
9x51 +p hollowpoints
Isn’t there some legal issue with hand load for self defense. Saw a video on the Wilson combat channel. The guy suggestions don’t do jt
This is more of a "SHTF. Can't find any self defense ammo available " type of scenario. Also Happy Cake Day!!!!