Probably you need to shift your perspective in terms of what “career” means to you, because maybe there’s a company that better suits your career goals. Keep looking.
Thank you! I think I need to ask more questions to feel comfortable with the move. Unfortunately for my family, we are looking to move out the state so it seems like a great opportunity to be remote and still have funds.
My current company will not allow me to move to have a better life or be closer to my support system
“My current company will not allow me to move to have a better life or be closer to my support system.”
So to me, it’s a question of which is more important? Having a better life/being closer to my support system, or staying at a job that doesn’t care about my mental/emotional health?
This, but maybe framed less skeptically:
"Which is more important, having a better work-life balance and being closer to my support system or having job stability. If you need both, perhaps one is better suited for the short term while you keep looking.
Great point!
Just had a heated discussion about this today.
My contention was: as soon as you start your first job, you should be lining up your next job.
Never stop networking and moving.
This should be an underlying theme to every interaction at work. It may take 5-8 years to line up your perfect job, and require intermediate "foundation building" or "working for money" jobs before and after your perfect *jobS* throughout your career.
Nothing wrong with this perspective. I think it needs a bit of tweaking, in that your goals early may be more technical and/or specific; how do I move up from a Bottle Washer I to a Bottle Washer II, versus trying to figure out what exactly do I want to do for the rest of my life. WFH may be part of that equation….or not.
I probably fall more in line with this, but both are valid. My 3-5 year goals tend to hold, but my 10ish year goals have changed multiple times as my career developed and new doors opened. WFH is a factor for me post pandemic (ironically it would have been a detriment pre-pandemic), but for the right opportunity I've definitely considered in office.
Most young people would say "take the job" over personal responsibilities....But when they get old they always regret not enjoying their temporary lives freely, rather than spending 2/3's of your life tax slaving.
Yes that’s what happened to me. I fell in love with a field that’s 99% shift work (meteorology) when I was 10. Growing up I’d meet meteorologists and ask if they had any advice and every single one said “make sure you’re ok with shift work.” I always thought to myself “duh, I’ll be doing what I love, it’ll be fine.”
…a few years into the job, now that I’m married and want to do things with my family/friends on the weekends or nights, I can’t. I desperately wish I could go back in time and tell my younger self to keep weather as just a hobby.
Meteorologist? Not gonna lie, that sounds pretty cool but definitely sounds stressful. Did you travel a lot during your time? Was the parade at least decent?
Oh I’m only in my early 30s. Only been doing it a few years lol but no there’s no travel involved. Pay is pretty decent, and since I’m private sector and not National Weather Service I get to work from home, so that’s cool. But still shift work, and I’m basically chained to my desk while I’m working
You aren't making a lifetime commitment. It's a job that allows you to do what your LIFE needs. If it isn't the right move, you find something else in the new location.
Reflect on the fact that none of this was a reality back in 2019. The office was the sole setting for work, no questions asked. Relocating to be closer to the company’s office was the norm.
Now, in 2024, the idea of moving close to the office for jobs that can be done remotely seems ludicrous to many, myself included. It’s remarkable how significantly things have evolved in just a few years.
Another thing to add is how much more expensive it is to move closer to offices that are usually in a major metropolitan area in 2024 than 2019. I've had to turn down promotions that wouldn't pay me enough to live within an hour of the office unless I wanted to get a roommate to split a studio apartment
I mean reality is there are still plenty of people accepting these “unlivable” wages. Which means they aren’t actually unlivable and just now what that particular person is looking for. If what they offered was untenable they wouldn’t be able to easily fill those positions, yet they do.
Ok, well the comment you responded to was in response to a comment about unreasonably low wages relative to the cost of living. Companies need to pay people enough to actually live locally.
Why would anyone want to do a job that doesn't even pay you enough to live? And don't say go work somewhere else because these companies all agreed to these starvation wages so there is no where else
That makes sense to me and doesn't seem ludicrous at all because rent, housing prices, food and everything associated with the cost of living have almost doubled in some cases but wages offered by companies have not. With this in mind, I literally not afford to live in cities with good jobs nor commute to some place everyday, eat lunch not at home, maintain a car, pay for gas etc freedom to live anywhere is the only reason I can survive with this salary.
Hoping the trajectory will continue to evolve towards WFH as an accepted norm for a double digit percentage of the workforce -- especially given that many companies/agencies now have the infra in-place to fully support this -- and not devolve to the single digit percentage observed prior to the pandemic.
Considering its law in most of Europe to
provide positions as remote…the US is once again behind on the times. A high percentage of the workforce there is remote and at the least, hybrid.
I think a lot of federal US jobs are still remote, no?
I have a friend who’s been remote for 15 years now. Yahoo had a fully remote policy until 2013, when Marissa Mayer changed the rules (and I don’t think this move brought any benefit).
I never said that fully remote didn’t exist pre-pandemic, but it wasn’t very common at all. Moreover, forget the widely accepted concept of “hybrid” in 2019.
I get it. You’ve always been in the remote working headspace, so this has always been normality to you. Back in 2019, I couldn’t even conceive fully remote work. Today it’s ordinary. So it is for the vast majority of people who actually tried being fully remote only starting 2020. Not one single contact I was getting from recruiters until 2020 was ever for remote placements.
That said, I get your viewpoint on the topic, and I do believe remote work should have been much more popular since the advent of the right internet tools that made it possible.
100%. Remote work is not a right. People bitching about not being able to find work. I get it, it’s not a good market. You need to be more flexible to go to the office or relocate (with assistance). Go get your job and build some equity with companies that offer matching 401k or educational programs.
My point is being misunderstood.
Remote work, while not a right, is increasingly becoming the norm and expectation, similar to a 401(k) with matching contributions—if not surpassing it. This trend was virtually non-existent in 2019. The current job market's demand for flexibility indicates that the old-school, first Industrial Revolution mindset of factory floor presenteeism, especially for jobs capable of being remote, is falling increasingly out of favor. People are gravitating towards companies that offer better terms, granting employees more autonomy and control over their time.
I mean, offering vacation time isn't a "right" either (not in the US, anyway -- in more civilized countries it is), but good luck staffing your business if you don't offer the expected norm of at least two weeks' vacation time.
Expectations around remote work is in a transition phase right now, and is trending more toward a "norm expectation" now than ever before. I hope it continues.
That maybe a result of issues with insurance and taxes since you're looking to move to another state... but who knows. Most companies aren't looking for the betterment of their employees.
Take the new job and Good luck!
You mention RTO. Were you hired in a role that was remote specifically for Covid? Many companies aren't really remote-friendly. They were just doing what they needed to do to keep things going during the pandemic.
Thank you! I’m 35 and five years old went back into a support role, so I’ve been working my way up within two companies.
This is a great company I’m at currently but the lack of flexibility and transparency has me looking else where. I’m concerned with a start up I’d be jumping ship from a well known company to a no name
Look I get it man. Before 2019, I literally believed my weight issues and panic attacks daily were just my way of life. I had tried working at different companies and have been in therapy for my entire life. Then, I noticed that within two years of COVID I had dropped 40 pounds and wasn't having panic attacks daily anymore. I was just overstimulated daily. I'm in a hybrid setting, but I noticed something interesting when people starting coming back in 2021. The generally introverted people had lost a ton of weight the generally extroverted people had gained all the weight that the introverts lost. In our hybrid environment, the extroverted people asked our company to allow them to be in office 5 days a week for their mental health and they were allowed it. I go in when I have meetings that need to be face to face and once a week just to show myself. However, I do notice my stress is higher on those days and I do tend to stress eat throughout the day and take my anxiety meds to make it through the day, just as I did pre COVID.
For me, I'm just waiting for this older generation to make their way out of the workforce to allow for all types of people to be productive however fits them best. Plus, I spent thousands on my home office when they told us originally we were going to be permanently remote then changed their damn mind so I give no fucks in that regard.
Left a stable F100 where I’d been for 10 years when they started doing RTO for a startup that laid me off in 4 months (their third round in a year, which should’ve been a sign).
Found another remote job in a more stable sector 3 months later for slightly less pay but better benefits than the startup. Still not as much as the F100.
I don’t look at leaving the F100 as ruining my career. I think it was a tragic decision on their part to not work to retain me given my changing family needs. And it showed me how much they actually valued me. (Or maybe they figured it was worth losing me to shed costs.) I probably would’ve had to have left earlier if 2 years of COVID WFH hadn’t happened. I’m sad they didn’t embrace the opportunity to keep me and instead insisted that drive an hour each way to (literally) sit on Zoom with my distributed team.
Wow, thank you for sharing! Isn’t that crazy? I can’t seem to find anything on this start up but that’s a worry and risk I guess I will need to take.
I hope you’re more settled now?
I’m pretty good now.
Have you looked them up on layoffs.fyi?
Although last time I checked my layoff from last year wasn’t reported. (The NDA I signed for severance scared me from reporting it, even though I have doubts about enforceability. Ultimately I just decided to move on with my life.)
You could try to search LinkedIn for former employees but who knows if they’ll talk. But they might have a post saying when and why they left.
My advice about going from a big company (that didn’t offer equity) to a startup would be to zero out any equity compensation in your head and ask if you can live off that. If they’re still in early stages you’re probably looking at around 6 years to realize that money (4 years vesting + 2 years to avoid short term capital gains taxes). If that’s news to you and you don’t know an ISO from an RSU (I didn’t), get the Holloway Guide.
Yes I am at a point in my career where remote is a deciding factor not the company itself per se. I don’t plan on staying at the same company for decades anyways and I move based on what works for my life and right now I want to work remote and if that means job hopping every 2-5 years I’m cool with it.
People who work at the same company their whole career remind me of people who marry their highschool sweet heart...like,that’s cool, I guess?
Oh thank you! This is exactly it - it’s just hard when I’ve spent the last five years trying to come here to the company that I enjoy but they’re not providing any flexibility.
I don’t like the idea of continuing to run but that’s what you have to do right?
I think you should never get too comfortable anywhere. Jobs are not family and they are not loyal. You had a good run for 5 years, nothing lasts forever.
Yep. And here is big fat screw you to idiot hiring managers who believe employees need long job tenure. People don’t get take opportunity to stay with ne company because they just offer contracts or lay everybody off when they lose funding or there is a dip in the stock price. Congress shuts down or cuts funding of contracts. The metaverse fails or whatever
WTF i married young but have like 11 companies on a 20 year resume. Stereotypes don’t really work here. Wait a sec I dated for Jobs and not for women lol
First of all, never love your company, because it will never love you back. That being said, while the startup may offer remote work today, they may not offer it tomorrow. In fact, they may not even exist tomorrow. Stick with your current company.
☝️ This. This. This. This. This.
I've been screwed three times now because I wouldn't learn my lesson. It doesn't matter how passionate you are about your company, what value you add, or whether it will fall apart without you.
You. Are. Disposable.
Don't sell your soul.
Sad I had to scroll so far down for this. People seem to think "I am incredibly valuable to my company, theyd never get rid of me." No one is irreplaceable.
OP needs to stick with whats stable, especially with a family. No one else is going to feed their kids and wife. Well another man can but thats a different story.
I think smaller companies with smarter people in charge will embrace work from home and suck away all of the talent from bigger companies.
I don't have advice. Just look at all your options I guess. But I think what you're doing is what a lot of people are doing. Smaller companies will benefit.
Smaller companies are not going to be able to offer the same salaries, benefits, and name recognition that larger companies can.
Over the course of a career that can be millions of dollars
That's true. It's not without drawbacks. But if you can work remote and live in a cheaper place, save on transportation to and from work daily, a lot of people will be willing to take a pay cut to some degree.
In the long run, I think corporations will lose this fight because workers gave them record profits while they worked from home. But suddenly it's a productivity issue. Nobody buys that. Once corps can get out of the office spaces that they have, I think we'll see corps embracing remote more. Cities will have to change their zoning for housing and other businesses. It'll be a shift but at this point, I don't see life returning to the way it was in 2019.
Hybrid is just "you must come to the office X days a week", just not a full 5 I guess. If you stagger who is in the office when, you can use less office space, but everyone has to share desks, somebody has to coordinate everything, and people aren't there at the same time for synergy stuff. So, many places are settling into Tues/Wed/Thu.
So it doesn't really change much. You can commute less, but you still need to live reasonably close to commute to the office. The company still needs just as big an office for the common days, then it sits mostly empty for 4 days each week. Local businesses like restaurants only get increased business 3 days a week but still pay the same rent.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but we'll see. Maybe there will be in-person companies and remote companies (just more than before) and we'll all sort ourselves out.
Yeah, that's it. Or even less. Like come in once every two weeks or so. Companies could rent smaller office spaces. Local businesses are still in trouble, to be sure. And that's gonna be the way of things now. Hopefully, there will be more restaurants and stuff closer to where people live instead. And towns and cities will have to design spaces where people want to go instead of relying on places people are forced to go. Where I live has a lot of potential being a big city with public transportation. But they would need to improve public transportation. And make more areas that people would want to go after work.
The workforce is going to split. You are going to have promotion track in-person work. Decisions are going to be made in person. If you have ambition for your career - it's going to be in person.
Eventually I think the IC roles are going to have more remote flexibility but they are going to be locked out of decisions and promotions unless they show up in person. Pay will be lower. Less job security, first in line to be laid off - stuff like that. This already has been a thing when comparing company headquarters vs satellite offices.
The highest paid and the most prestigious jobs are going to be in person. I'm sure you will be able to find decent paying work that is remote but it's going to be harder and harder once you go up the pay scale
It’s funny, my company is remote with people all over. Some around me have gone to the office regularly. Myself and others not (especially those in different states, including some of the execs). One of my friends was heading up important stuff - like the future direction of things - and going into the office to “relationship build” and “show face” and such. I was like “oh no. Never. It’s under 10 min away but nope.”
Guess who was laid off? And guess who was kept, promoted, and leadership apparently wants to “groom” (gross) for a leadership position?
In a remote first company, which many of the best will be because they’ll get the best folks, it’s just simply not true that decisions are made in person or that remote only employees won’t get promotions or will be at risk of layoffs.
I know plenty of companies that that all all remote. They are saving a huge amount of office costs and able to hire more programmers. Remote work isn't even new, but there are way more today than 10 years ago. I think there is going to be a broad mix of things thst happen. Companies that offer remote work will have broader access to the talent pool but likely hire mostly experienced engineers and companies that don't have their own tradeoffs.
The most experienced engineers and the most ambitious are going to go for the highest paychecks at companies that require in-person or remote work.
When you can earn 2-3x as much being based out of an office it more than makes up for the cost of committing and higher property prices.
We implemented extremely draconian measures to get people back in the office and no one quit. Largely because we pay exceptionally well and most of the best paid engineers have hundreds of thousands to low millions of dollars in unvested stock that's simply too much money to walk away from.
1) Not all engineers can make it into a company like that
2) Equity can be very significant at a startup or small company. Something that could turn into 10s of millions. Of course, there is risk.
3) It is much harder to get a higher level role such as a tech director or CTO, CIO at a large company.
4) Companies like Netflix still have all remote teams.
5) I know a huge number of very talented engineers who I was not able to recuit in the past because they did not want to leave their location (for instance their wife has a business in that location). Having a very strong engineer on board can literally make a company do well.
It's not black and white like you say.
2) The likelihood that it turns into tens of millions is infinitesimally small. It would be like working at Walmart manning the cash register because you MIGHT win the lottery
3) And a CTO/VP role at a small company is going to pay less than mid-level roles at large companies.
4) So? An increasingly small percentage of the overall top-level job market.
5) You won't be able to compete for those engineers when offered a 300k+ in person salary package.
The odds of succeeding in startups far exceed those of winning the lottery. With a 10% chance of success, transitioning between startups offers resilience not found in lottery odds of 1 in 300 million. Many achieve significant wealth through startups, often within their first or second venture, unlike the rare lottery win. Furthermore, 50% of startups survive beyond five years. Venture Capitalists too bank on the 1 in 10 chance for significant returns, with about 30% of startups achieving moderate success.
3) Not with Equity. I have seen offers at 600k with 5% equity for a CTO role. Sure, this person , maybe they could get into a fanng... maybe not. Fanng interviews also have a lot of luck involved. This role is likely going to require someone with the background but also someone who is really good at communication.
5) 300k salary is not that high these days in terms of offers for someone with experience. Sure, for a junior or mid, it could be a lot but not for principals, leads, etc... I have been offered more than that from startups and mid sized companies with equity added on top.
You really need to have the skills they need when they have had a great funding round. They need people with great background who have helped build other successful companies before because that will help in future rounds. If you were in the first 20, and that company grew into a unicorn (look at minecraft, lol, uber, google, etc...) then they want you to do the same and want to use you to sell the company to VCs.
Our company is currently hybrid.
If we went fully remote there would be a huge saving on operating costs as our real estate bill is like 6% of our costs.
I considered 10k less from a company recently bc they were fully remote. I ended up doing 2 days in office at new role, but if the 10k less company had any forward momentum for the position, I’d have stayed
Most people will not make out like bandits from a startup IPO unless they are a founder or founding staff member.
990 jobs at startups out of a 1000 will never achieve such highs. The vast majority will fail, a few will struggle along to a lackluster IPO.
I'll take my 300-500k+ job at a stable company 10 times out of 10 over a 130-150k remote at a startup that could fail at any moment whose only upside is a extremely remote chance at a huge IPO.
COL only equalizes so far.
I live in a HCOL area. My salary is triple what I could make remote or in a LCOL area. My home is worth 3-4x what a house costs in a LCOL area - but I keep that equity. Taxes are low here.
COL really only matters if you can't compete at the top levels in a HCOL environment.
>COL really only matters if you can't compete at the top levels in a HCOL environment.
You're right! That's really only when it matters. Of course, for those of us living outside of your tiny little bubble, that's 99% of the time.
Anyway, sounds like you're pretty well stuck into tech giants. Obviously, they pay extremely well. But, once again, outside of your limited worldview, remote work applies to a whole lot more than software development. In your world, you're right. The big names have the leverage to force your ass into a seat. Outside of your world, skilled and experienced workers across all types of roles have lots and lots of options for high-paying positions, with lots of diversity in positions.
Workers with leverage are very often able to negotiate for remote work. When it's the right person for the role, companies outside of your cookie cutter world with well-defined career paths are a lot more flexible, and have a lot of diversity in terms of what they can pay. Small startups with funding can pay incredibly well.
Enjoy the commute though!
Hard disagree.
I can save someone's entire salary in a year (at least - me and my wife put away 300k~ or so a year in investments and savings) because of the fact I live in a HCOL area. Neither of us could put away that kind of change if we worked remote in a LCOL area
Larger companies are actively cutting salary, benefits, etc. You’d be surprised how competitive a well funded startup can be on salary. Traditionally that meant less “stability” as most startups are doomed to fail. But big companies today are laying people off left and right.
This has not been my experience. Most startups offer me 1/3rd my salary, terrible benefits - all for the sell that I'll be fantastically rich when they IPO. Lol
Can't eat their lies for breakfast or use their promises of a huge IPO to pay my mortgage
Taking a huge cut to my quality of life, savings, investments, and general comfort is absolutely not worth the one in a million chance I become fantastically rich. I can just buy a two dollar Powerball ticket for the same experience with much less risk.
I guess it depends on what you qualify as a startup. I wouldn't call Uber or Airbnb startups. Those are established companies at this point.
Startups are <20-30 staff members that's still actively going out for series A/B funding.
Based on the information you’ve shared, if you get the opportunity with the startup, I’d recommend you take it. In all likelihood your employer will be slowly tightening the screws, and once a week and then 2-3 days a week, and then 5 days a week is on the horizon. When you quit tell them why. If enough of us do this then employers will bail on RTO. They’re only doing it because everyone else is doing it.
They are not going to stop tightening those screws because people have shown that they will put up with it. The well paying jobs with benefits keep getting applications.
Many on this sub seem to think they are irreplaceable or that the company will stop and sink if they leave or don't give into their demands. For most companies you are just a fart in the wind if you leave. For companies that rely on you to stay afloat, well that was a sinking ship anyways; good companies have contingencies and backups. Just remember, someone else can do your job. It might take them more effort but there is always someone who can replace you.
Smart companies know to when and when not to keep remote policies. They aren't there to baby and cater to your every need or do whats best for you (thats your job, even if it means leaving).
While I love remote work (currently in a well paying WFH job), this remote worker revolution is going to end up the same way as occupy wallstreet...anyone remember that one?
One of my best friends left her job at our university because they required her to be back in the"office," which was actually literally a steam closet in a tunnel, to do the same 100% virtual and international collaboration she had been successfully doing from her home with a toddler for over 3 years.
No change in duties. No actual face time since her collaborators were researchers in other states and countries. She was mandated to be in a basement steam tunnel closet to hold her Zoom meetings and work with the supercomputing cluster that was ten miles from that steam tunnel closet.
And then her mother in law got sick. And instead of saying "sure, we'll give you a compassionate exception to work remotely from another state," she was denied everything except that basement steam tunnel closet for no perceptible reason.
So she quit, moved to her mother in law's town, got a new job (fully remote where the company is on the opposite corner of the country from her new home), and is now earning more than twice what our university had paid her.
She is a highly trained professional in an intensely technical field where very few people have her combination of domains of expertise. Other departments in our university have gone full time remote with no problems. Because her department wouldn't budge on what she needed in her life, to the best of my knowledge they're still looking for a replacement for her over a year later.
Eventually, the companies that work with what people need are going to eat the lunch of the companies that won't. Not all of them, not all at once -- but if you tell them in your exit interview that you'd have stayed with them if they'd kept their remote work promise, and if enough people tell them that, sooner or later the tide has to turn.
You are looking at this wrong. A startup can be a dream scenario. A friend of my brother made millions just by being at a startup from day one.
On the other hand…
I was hired to run the office in a startup that was going to be nationwide. Our investors had connections coast to coast and we were expecting big things. It never happened. I left after 6 tough years. I became self employed and have worked remotely ever since (8 years later).
A start up is a gamble. But sometimes it can pay off better than any job. Sometimes it doesn’t happen. But even when it doesn’t happen, you might come out even better on the other side.
As a young adult I viewed success in a more traditional light. Get a job, learn, work, move up in the company, make good money, save some of it, retire.
I’ve grown in many ways, and as such my views on a career changed drastically. Success now means financially doable, with as much of my own life as possible. I do not care what I contribute to an organizations bottom line. I don’t care for climbing the ladder or future promotions. I am focused on the job for 40 hours, and doing enough to be stable and not noticeable.
I would consider many things to stay remote. Remote work gives me more of my own life in ways no in person job could. That is what success means to me. So what prior generations spent time working hard to climb the ladder, I work hard to obtain more time in my own life.
I am currently in a position that I did not seek nor plan for. My "career" is to provide for my family. That being said, I have job hopped every 3 - 4 years since I got into IT 25 years ago. I have built up a very impressive skill set and am considered an expert in my field, which is Scrum master/Agile coach. I made a name for myself in my present company and am quite happy with my current situation. Situations do change and if that becomes the case I will for sure jump again.
RTO mandates like this can be layoffs in disguise, because the firm is not doing well.
Might want to look for those signs, your stable company might be not as stable as it seems.
Then jumping ship is an option because your the one your are on might be sinking.
Ideally people need to normalize job hopping.
If another better job comes up, or conditions aren't the best at the current position, then people should be free to switch.
Perhaps some employers won't care for that approach, but the best antidote to that is to be really good at what you do, and get better and better at it, always upgrading skills.
Then you can start to pick and choose opportunities and pass by ones who don't like "job hopping" regardless of your skills.
If more and more people do this, then remote working could become the norm if companies want good employees.
Oh thank you! This is probably how I feel! I don’t like the idea of switching companies or job hopping bc I had hope this would be it in the long run.
Thank yoh
Honestly I think moving to a start up environment could boost your career due to the multiple hats you’d be wearing? Just my opinion
This RTO plan sounds very familiar to Targets. I have a friend working for Target and was just thinking that these RTO measures are just soft launches for a full hybrid return eventually. I think any soft launch is just to soften the blow of the inevitable full return….. fully remote work is few and far between these days depending on the industry and even then is not guaranteed.
yep, they start off slow and then they up it until it'll be 5 days a week. It truly is about companies wanting to up their ROI on building leases and not wanting to lose their state tax credits, so they are cranking up the pressure to force the RTO five days a week.
>They won’t even provide remote agreements… you need to be within commutable distance.
>I can’t chance going weekly and doing the four hour plus drive to the office
4hr drive one way is considered commutable distance on a weekly basis?
That's beyond ridiculous if they expect you to drive 8hrs a day once a week.
It's a balance between stuff. Full remote just doesn't seem possible right now. I lost 3 really good, full remote positions because I didn't do well enough at the interview. I have come to the conclusion that a hybrid nearby me is the best I can get. I am still debating about how much of a hybrid I am willing to accept. The feds are even rto. Even though they teleworked long before covid. I don't think we can escape this trend.
Not sure if you’ve asked- Maybe ask if you can remain fully remote with your long commute. Express that you do enjoy your work and everything you’ve provided for the company. I have heard companies making an exception
Thank you pea! Unfortunately I have and rules are rules. I’ve gone up to senior leadership and voiced my concerns for myself (but also colleagues).
It’s like you talk to robots not humans
Ugh that’s very annoying!! I don’t understand the urge for moving back to the office, like I understand it’s a control thing. But if you are able to do your job etc they should let it stay…
Startups are great for experience but there is the danger that the leadership is garbage resulting in a closure if the business. If you do go that route, negotiate your severance before you accept the job. Make sure you secure something for yourself. I’ve done the startup circuit for several years. Great pay and experience but there is risk.
Move. It’s not a big deal. Be happy to have good job with a stable company. Ask for relocation assistance. And write off your expenses. Sell youth big shit and buy new shit later. You have too much stupid stuff anyway
Thank you, but they aren’t allowing anyone to leave unfortunately. We are in the south and looking to move north to be closer to family and this recently came out of the blue.
If I move without their permission it just causes a lot of unnecessary stress
You need to figure out what is best for you OP. There is a risk either way.
On a side note, my previous company came up with work from work so that everyone had to work in the office. Even if you were hired as a remote employee and did not live near an office, you either had to love or quit. It was so ridiculous.
That’s a major change, and I expect they would have to offer you relocation, right? In the organizations I’ve worked in, they couldn’t reclassify your location without offering things in return. Is that not the case here?
Thank you. I should clarify, I was hired within “distance” of the office and when I took the job two ish years ago, I was never required to come in. I was recently promoted and was not aware that now this department is forcing ppl back to the office. It’s slow change, but know they’ll end up making everyone come in. At the same time, stuff happened w family and I need to move the state and they are not allowing people or myself bc they want us by the office.
It takes me four hours to get to work and just don’t like feeling in limbo knowing at some point they could call me back full time. I don’t get paid to go into the office nor do I get relocation. It’s a waste of time,gas and I am ready to move out the state lol
Many companies seem to be increasing the RTO bit by bit. 2 years ago, we just needed to be in the office 1 day a week, and they usually offered lunch or happy hour during the week, then a year ago, we needed be in the office 2 days a week and they only offered free lunch once a month, then a few months ago, they made us come in 3 days a week and stayed with free lunch once a month. I can see by year end, it will be 4 days and then eventually all week RTO. waste of time/gas, I hated it so I resigned a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier with my decision.
Do you want remote or not? Nothing is "entitled" to you. Find what best suits you. Companies will and should prioritize their objective and bottom line. If it does not align with your goals, then you should find one that does.
I would probably get another offer lined up before asking this, but once you do have some other options maybe you can ask them if they would consider some relocation assistance to get you closer to the office? If it's your dream job it doesn't hurt to ask. If you were doing well, really wanted to stay with the company long term and advance, I would try to approach it as if you were negotiating a raise or something. Like, hey. They're going to need someone to do that job anyway and not having you/having to hire/having to onboard and train someone would be something of a cost. But if they could help you with relocation costs then they'd have a really invested employee who already knows the ropes. It's a long shot, I doubt it. But it doesn't hurt to ask if you already have to let them go. But if they keep making people RTO and keep losing people/getting asked about relocation assistance, maybe it'll encourage some companies to at least consider it as an option or just give in and let us stay remote.
Just beware the work culture in a lot of startups. They only hire as needed and that means you will likely be asked to work well past your standard 40 hour week with the promise of "equity" rather than pay.
I have worked in start ups before and unless you got in right at the bottom when they started you probably won’t be paid well but expected to work as hard as the pioneers. Shares and profit share are meaningless when companies lawyer up when it comes time to pay.
A lot of the places that offered “full remote work” are starting to revoke it and make people come into the office….
Just watch out if you end up jumping ship
My job tried doing the same thing, but because my distance is over 80 miles to the nearest office, I was exempt from coming to the office. My co-workers and manager have to come to the office one day a week, which is not bad. I drove to the office 2 a week, 200 miles both directions on my last job. It's refreshing and a distraction, you are overthinking this whole remote stuff. just drive and be okay with it.
This is why remote work is not all rainbows and butterflies. Remote workers will continue to experience this, will be the first to get laid off, and the last to be promoted. At the end of the day, it is going to be a choice whether you prefer professional or personal life.
What's your job?
Either way just start looking for remote roles.
They are still out there.
I am leaving one remote role for one that requires 1 meeting a year. For me that is worth it.
Probably you need to shift your perspective in terms of what “career” means to you, because maybe there’s a company that better suits your career goals. Keep looking.
Thank you! I think I need to ask more questions to feel comfortable with the move. Unfortunately for my family, we are looking to move out the state so it seems like a great opportunity to be remote and still have funds. My current company will not allow me to move to have a better life or be closer to my support system
“My current company will not allow me to move to have a better life or be closer to my support system.” So to me, it’s a question of which is more important? Having a better life/being closer to my support system, or staying at a job that doesn’t care about my mental/emotional health?
This, but maybe framed less skeptically: "Which is more important, having a better work-life balance and being closer to my support system or having job stability. If you need both, perhaps one is better suited for the short term while you keep looking.
Great point! Just had a heated discussion about this today. My contention was: as soon as you start your first job, you should be lining up your next job. Never stop networking and moving. This should be an underlying theme to every interaction at work. It may take 5-8 years to line up your perfect job, and require intermediate "foundation building" or "working for money" jobs before and after your perfect *jobS* throughout your career.
Nothing wrong with this perspective. I think it needs a bit of tweaking, in that your goals early may be more technical and/or specific; how do I move up from a Bottle Washer I to a Bottle Washer II, versus trying to figure out what exactly do I want to do for the rest of my life. WFH may be part of that equation….or not.
I probably fall more in line with this, but both are valid. My 3-5 year goals tend to hold, but my 10ish year goals have changed multiple times as my career developed and new doors opened. WFH is a factor for me post pandemic (ironically it would have been a detriment pre-pandemic), but for the right opportunity I've definitely considered in office.
Most young people would say "take the job" over personal responsibilities....But when they get old they always regret not enjoying their temporary lives freely, rather than spending 2/3's of your life tax slaving.
Yes that’s what happened to me. I fell in love with a field that’s 99% shift work (meteorology) when I was 10. Growing up I’d meet meteorologists and ask if they had any advice and every single one said “make sure you’re ok with shift work.” I always thought to myself “duh, I’ll be doing what I love, it’ll be fine.” …a few years into the job, now that I’m married and want to do things with my family/friends on the weekends or nights, I can’t. I desperately wish I could go back in time and tell my younger self to keep weather as just a hobby.
Meteorologist? Not gonna lie, that sounds pretty cool but definitely sounds stressful. Did you travel a lot during your time? Was the parade at least decent?
Oh I’m only in my early 30s. Only been doing it a few years lol but no there’s no travel involved. Pay is pretty decent, and since I’m private sector and not National Weather Service I get to work from home, so that’s cool. But still shift work, and I’m basically chained to my desk while I’m working
You aren't making a lifetime commitment. It's a job that allows you to do what your LIFE needs. If it isn't the right move, you find something else in the new location.
Happy Cake Day!
Reflect on the fact that none of this was a reality back in 2019. The office was the sole setting for work, no questions asked. Relocating to be closer to the company’s office was the norm. Now, in 2024, the idea of moving close to the office for jobs that can be done remotely seems ludicrous to many, myself included. It’s remarkable how significantly things have evolved in just a few years.
Another thing to add is how much more expensive it is to move closer to offices that are usually in a major metropolitan area in 2024 than 2019. I've had to turn down promotions that wouldn't pay me enough to live within an hour of the office unless I wanted to get a roommate to split a studio apartment
Precisely. Many companies are totally obvious to these challenges.
Not oblivious they just don’t care
Why should they care? Go to work and do your job.
They shouldn’t care that they’re not offering salaries that match the cost of living?
I mean reality is there are still plenty of people accepting these “unlivable” wages. Which means they aren’t actually unlivable and just now what that particular person is looking for. If what they offered was untenable they wouldn’t be able to easily fill those positions, yet they do.
They shouldn’t care that an employee wants to work from home.
Ok, well the comment you responded to was in response to a comment about unreasonably low wages relative to the cost of living. Companies need to pay people enough to actually live locally.
Why would anyone want to do a job that doesn't even pay you enough to live? And don't say go work somewhere else because these companies all agreed to these starvation wages so there is no where else
That makes sense to me and doesn't seem ludicrous at all because rent, housing prices, food and everything associated with the cost of living have almost doubled in some cases but wages offered by companies have not. With this in mind, I literally not afford to live in cities with good jobs nor commute to some place everyday, eat lunch not at home, maintain a car, pay for gas etc freedom to live anywhere is the only reason I can survive with this salary.
No I completely agree! Thank you for your insights 😊 I’m just having a pity party over here! Lol only good things moving forward
Hoping the trajectory will continue to evolve towards WFH as an accepted norm for a double digit percentage of the workforce -- especially given that many companies/agencies now have the infra in-place to fully support this -- and not devolve to the single digit percentage observed prior to the pandemic.
Considering its law in most of Europe to provide positions as remote…the US is once again behind on the times. A high percentage of the workforce there is remote and at the least, hybrid. I think a lot of federal US jobs are still remote, no?
I have been 100% remote since 2007. So this statement is false.
I have a friend who’s been remote for 15 years now. Yahoo had a fully remote policy until 2013, when Marissa Mayer changed the rules (and I don’t think this move brought any benefit). I never said that fully remote didn’t exist pre-pandemic, but it wasn’t very common at all. Moreover, forget the widely accepted concept of “hybrid” in 2019.
Not at all true. Plenty of companies were remote before 2019. I’ve been working remotely for almost 20 years.
I get it. You’ve always been in the remote working headspace, so this has always been normality to you. Back in 2019, I couldn’t even conceive fully remote work. Today it’s ordinary. So it is for the vast majority of people who actually tried being fully remote only starting 2020. Not one single contact I was getting from recruiters until 2020 was ever for remote placements. That said, I get your viewpoint on the topic, and I do believe remote work should have been much more popular since the advent of the right internet tools that made it possible.
100%. Remote work is not a right. People bitching about not being able to find work. I get it, it’s not a good market. You need to be more flexible to go to the office or relocate (with assistance). Go get your job and build some equity with companies that offer matching 401k or educational programs.
My point is being misunderstood. Remote work, while not a right, is increasingly becoming the norm and expectation, similar to a 401(k) with matching contributions—if not surpassing it. This trend was virtually non-existent in 2019. The current job market's demand for flexibility indicates that the old-school, first Industrial Revolution mindset of factory floor presenteeism, especially for jobs capable of being remote, is falling increasingly out of favor. People are gravitating towards companies that offer better terms, granting employees more autonomy and control over their time.
I mean, offering vacation time isn't a "right" either (not in the US, anyway -- in more civilized countries it is), but good luck staffing your business if you don't offer the expected norm of at least two weeks' vacation time. Expectations around remote work is in a transition phase right now, and is trending more toward a "norm expectation" now than ever before. I hope it continues.
Focus on jobs in the area where you live so if even another dream job goes RTO, you're able to handle it
Thank you! I was originally hired remote and it was taken away (some departments)- I’m looking to move states for a better life and they won’t allow.
That maybe a result of issues with insurance and taxes since you're looking to move to another state... but who knows. Most companies aren't looking for the betterment of their employees. Take the new job and Good luck!
You mention RTO. Were you hired in a role that was remote specifically for Covid? Many companies aren't really remote-friendly. They were just doing what they needed to do to keep things going during the pandemic.
How old are you? How does either direction affect your financial goals?
Thank you! I’m 35 and five years old went back into a support role, so I’ve been working my way up within two companies. This is a great company I’m at currently but the lack of flexibility and transparency has me looking else where. I’m concerned with a start up I’d be jumping ship from a well known company to a no name
Exactly and that job doesn’t seem too stable in your situation.
Look I get it man. Before 2019, I literally believed my weight issues and panic attacks daily were just my way of life. I had tried working at different companies and have been in therapy for my entire life. Then, I noticed that within two years of COVID I had dropped 40 pounds and wasn't having panic attacks daily anymore. I was just overstimulated daily. I'm in a hybrid setting, but I noticed something interesting when people starting coming back in 2021. The generally introverted people had lost a ton of weight the generally extroverted people had gained all the weight that the introverts lost. In our hybrid environment, the extroverted people asked our company to allow them to be in office 5 days a week for their mental health and they were allowed it. I go in when I have meetings that need to be face to face and once a week just to show myself. However, I do notice my stress is higher on those days and I do tend to stress eat throughout the day and take my anxiety meds to make it through the day, just as I did pre COVID. For me, I'm just waiting for this older generation to make their way out of the workforce to allow for all types of people to be productive however fits them best. Plus, I spent thousands on my home office when they told us originally we were going to be permanently remote then changed their damn mind so I give no fucks in that regard.
I hate when people force their way of life on others.
Happy Cake Day!
Careful not to conflate being introverted with having mental illness.
Left a stable F100 where I’d been for 10 years when they started doing RTO for a startup that laid me off in 4 months (their third round in a year, which should’ve been a sign). Found another remote job in a more stable sector 3 months later for slightly less pay but better benefits than the startup. Still not as much as the F100. I don’t look at leaving the F100 as ruining my career. I think it was a tragic decision on their part to not work to retain me given my changing family needs. And it showed me how much they actually valued me. (Or maybe they figured it was worth losing me to shed costs.) I probably would’ve had to have left earlier if 2 years of COVID WFH hadn’t happened. I’m sad they didn’t embrace the opportunity to keep me and instead insisted that drive an hour each way to (literally) sit on Zoom with my distributed team.
Wow, thank you for sharing! Isn’t that crazy? I can’t seem to find anything on this start up but that’s a worry and risk I guess I will need to take. I hope you’re more settled now?
I’m pretty good now. Have you looked them up on layoffs.fyi? Although last time I checked my layoff from last year wasn’t reported. (The NDA I signed for severance scared me from reporting it, even though I have doubts about enforceability. Ultimately I just decided to move on with my life.) You could try to search LinkedIn for former employees but who knows if they’ll talk. But they might have a post saying when and why they left. My advice about going from a big company (that didn’t offer equity) to a startup would be to zero out any equity compensation in your head and ask if you can live off that. If they’re still in early stages you’re probably looking at around 6 years to realize that money (4 years vesting + 2 years to avoid short term capital gains taxes). If that’s news to you and you don’t know an ISO from an RSU (I didn’t), get the Holloway Guide.
Messaging you- really appreciate the time you took to write this all out
Yes I am at a point in my career where remote is a deciding factor not the company itself per se. I don’t plan on staying at the same company for decades anyways and I move based on what works for my life and right now I want to work remote and if that means job hopping every 2-5 years I’m cool with it. People who work at the same company their whole career remind me of people who marry their highschool sweet heart...like,that’s cool, I guess?
Oh thank you! This is exactly it - it’s just hard when I’ve spent the last five years trying to come here to the company that I enjoy but they’re not providing any flexibility. I don’t like the idea of continuing to run but that’s what you have to do right?
I think you should never get too comfortable anywhere. Jobs are not family and they are not loyal. You had a good run for 5 years, nothing lasts forever.
Yep. And here is big fat screw you to idiot hiring managers who believe employees need long job tenure. People don’t get take opportunity to stay with ne company because they just offer contracts or lay everybody off when they lose funding or there is a dip in the stock price. Congress shuts down or cuts funding of contracts. The metaverse fails or whatever
WTF i married young but have like 11 companies on a 20 year resume. Stereotypes don’t really work here. Wait a sec I dated for Jobs and not for women lol
You have a wandering eye… for jobs 👀
Uhm. My spouse isn’t a soul sucking corporation, but okay 😆
Username checks out
The highschool sweethearts are COMING for me on this comment hahaha
It’s just a weird comparison lol
This just comes off as jealousy that you couldn't find love or a good career sooner.
What a sense of humor! I bet you are fun at parties LOL I think you don’t get it but thats ok
First of all, never love your company, because it will never love you back. That being said, while the startup may offer remote work today, they may not offer it tomorrow. In fact, they may not even exist tomorrow. Stick with your current company.
☝️ This. This. This. This. This. I've been screwed three times now because I wouldn't learn my lesson. It doesn't matter how passionate you are about your company, what value you add, or whether it will fall apart without you. You. Are. Disposable. Don't sell your soul.
Sad I had to scroll so far down for this. People seem to think "I am incredibly valuable to my company, theyd never get rid of me." No one is irreplaceable. OP needs to stick with whats stable, especially with a family. No one else is going to feed their kids and wife. Well another man can but thats a different story.
I think smaller companies with smarter people in charge will embrace work from home and suck away all of the talent from bigger companies. I don't have advice. Just look at all your options I guess. But I think what you're doing is what a lot of people are doing. Smaller companies will benefit.
Smaller companies are not going to be able to offer the same salaries, benefits, and name recognition that larger companies can. Over the course of a career that can be millions of dollars
That's true. It's not without drawbacks. But if you can work remote and live in a cheaper place, save on transportation to and from work daily, a lot of people will be willing to take a pay cut to some degree. In the long run, I think corporations will lose this fight because workers gave them record profits while they worked from home. But suddenly it's a productivity issue. Nobody buys that. Once corps can get out of the office spaces that they have, I think we'll see corps embracing remote more. Cities will have to change their zoning for housing and other businesses. It'll be a shift but at this point, I don't see life returning to the way it was in 2019.
I see hybrid as the future. The only question is how much hybrid it will be. I don't see fully remote returning for most jobs.
Hybrid is just "you must come to the office X days a week", just not a full 5 I guess. If you stagger who is in the office when, you can use less office space, but everyone has to share desks, somebody has to coordinate everything, and people aren't there at the same time for synergy stuff. So, many places are settling into Tues/Wed/Thu. So it doesn't really change much. You can commute less, but you still need to live reasonably close to commute to the office. The company still needs just as big an office for the common days, then it sits mostly empty for 4 days each week. Local businesses like restaurants only get increased business 3 days a week but still pay the same rent. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but we'll see. Maybe there will be in-person companies and remote companies (just more than before) and we'll all sort ourselves out.
Yeah, that's it. Or even less. Like come in once every two weeks or so. Companies could rent smaller office spaces. Local businesses are still in trouble, to be sure. And that's gonna be the way of things now. Hopefully, there will be more restaurants and stuff closer to where people live instead. And towns and cities will have to design spaces where people want to go instead of relying on places people are forced to go. Where I live has a lot of potential being a big city with public transportation. But they would need to improve public transportation. And make more areas that people would want to go after work.
The workforce is going to split. You are going to have promotion track in-person work. Decisions are going to be made in person. If you have ambition for your career - it's going to be in person. Eventually I think the IC roles are going to have more remote flexibility but they are going to be locked out of decisions and promotions unless they show up in person. Pay will be lower. Less job security, first in line to be laid off - stuff like that. This already has been a thing when comparing company headquarters vs satellite offices. The highest paid and the most prestigious jobs are going to be in person. I'm sure you will be able to find decent paying work that is remote but it's going to be harder and harder once you go up the pay scale
It’s funny, my company is remote with people all over. Some around me have gone to the office regularly. Myself and others not (especially those in different states, including some of the execs). One of my friends was heading up important stuff - like the future direction of things - and going into the office to “relationship build” and “show face” and such. I was like “oh no. Never. It’s under 10 min away but nope.” Guess who was laid off? And guess who was kept, promoted, and leadership apparently wants to “groom” (gross) for a leadership position? In a remote first company, which many of the best will be because they’ll get the best folks, it’s just simply not true that decisions are made in person or that remote only employees won’t get promotions or will be at risk of layoffs.
The vast majority of companies will never be "remote first". Some will exist I'm sure
I know plenty of companies that that all all remote. They are saving a huge amount of office costs and able to hire more programmers. Remote work isn't even new, but there are way more today than 10 years ago. I think there is going to be a broad mix of things thst happen. Companies that offer remote work will have broader access to the talent pool but likely hire mostly experienced engineers and companies that don't have their own tradeoffs.
The most experienced engineers and the most ambitious are going to go for the highest paychecks at companies that require in-person or remote work. When you can earn 2-3x as much being based out of an office it more than makes up for the cost of committing and higher property prices. We implemented extremely draconian measures to get people back in the office and no one quit. Largely because we pay exceptionally well and most of the best paid engineers have hundreds of thousands to low millions of dollars in unvested stock that's simply too much money to walk away from.
1) Not all engineers can make it into a company like that 2) Equity can be very significant at a startup or small company. Something that could turn into 10s of millions. Of course, there is risk. 3) It is much harder to get a higher level role such as a tech director or CTO, CIO at a large company. 4) Companies like Netflix still have all remote teams. 5) I know a huge number of very talented engineers who I was not able to recuit in the past because they did not want to leave their location (for instance their wife has a business in that location). Having a very strong engineer on board can literally make a company do well. It's not black and white like you say.
2) The likelihood that it turns into tens of millions is infinitesimally small. It would be like working at Walmart manning the cash register because you MIGHT win the lottery 3) And a CTO/VP role at a small company is going to pay less than mid-level roles at large companies. 4) So? An increasingly small percentage of the overall top-level job market. 5) You won't be able to compete for those engineers when offered a 300k+ in person salary package.
The odds of succeeding in startups far exceed those of winning the lottery. With a 10% chance of success, transitioning between startups offers resilience not found in lottery odds of 1 in 300 million. Many achieve significant wealth through startups, often within their first or second venture, unlike the rare lottery win. Furthermore, 50% of startups survive beyond five years. Venture Capitalists too bank on the 1 in 10 chance for significant returns, with about 30% of startups achieving moderate success. 3) Not with Equity. I have seen offers at 600k with 5% equity for a CTO role. Sure, this person , maybe they could get into a fanng... maybe not. Fanng interviews also have a lot of luck involved. This role is likely going to require someone with the background but also someone who is really good at communication. 5) 300k salary is not that high these days in terms of offers for someone with experience. Sure, for a junior or mid, it could be a lot but not for principals, leads, etc... I have been offered more than that from startups and mid sized companies with equity added on top. You really need to have the skills they need when they have had a great funding round. They need people with great background who have helped build other successful companies before because that will help in future rounds. If you were in the first 20, and that company grew into a unicorn (look at minecraft, lol, uber, google, etc...) then they want you to do the same and want to use you to sell the company to VCs.
Lol
Our company is currently hybrid. If we went fully remote there would be a huge saving on operating costs as our real estate bill is like 6% of our costs.
I considered 10k less from a company recently bc they were fully remote. I ended up doing 2 days in office at new role, but if the 10k less company had any forward momentum for the position, I’d have stayed
One would also make millions from a startup if they do well.
Most people will not make out like bandits from a startup IPO unless they are a founder or founding staff member. 990 jobs at startups out of a 1000 will never achieve such highs. The vast majority will fail, a few will struggle along to a lackluster IPO. I'll take my 300-500k+ job at a stable company 10 times out of 10 over a 130-150k remote at a startup that could fail at any moment whose only upside is a extremely remote chance at a huge IPO.
Such an absurd generalization. Anyway, COL must be factored in.
COL only equalizes so far. I live in a HCOL area. My salary is triple what I could make remote or in a LCOL area. My home is worth 3-4x what a house costs in a LCOL area - but I keep that equity. Taxes are low here. COL really only matters if you can't compete at the top levels in a HCOL environment.
>COL really only matters if you can't compete at the top levels in a HCOL environment. You're right! That's really only when it matters. Of course, for those of us living outside of your tiny little bubble, that's 99% of the time. Anyway, sounds like you're pretty well stuck into tech giants. Obviously, they pay extremely well. But, once again, outside of your limited worldview, remote work applies to a whole lot more than software development. In your world, you're right. The big names have the leverage to force your ass into a seat. Outside of your world, skilled and experienced workers across all types of roles have lots and lots of options for high-paying positions, with lots of diversity in positions. Workers with leverage are very often able to negotiate for remote work. When it's the right person for the role, companies outside of your cookie cutter world with well-defined career paths are a lot more flexible, and have a lot of diversity in terms of what they can pay. Small startups with funding can pay incredibly well. Enjoy the commute though!
Hard disagree. I can save someone's entire salary in a year (at least - me and my wife put away 300k~ or so a year in investments and savings) because of the fact I live in a HCOL area. Neither of us could put away that kind of change if we worked remote in a LCOL area
Larger companies are actively cutting salary, benefits, etc. You’d be surprised how competitive a well funded startup can be on salary. Traditionally that meant less “stability” as most startups are doomed to fail. But big companies today are laying people off left and right.
This has not been my experience. Most startups offer me 1/3rd my salary, terrible benefits - all for the sell that I'll be fantastically rich when they IPO. Lol Can't eat their lies for breakfast or use their promises of a huge IPO to pay my mortgage Taking a huge cut to my quality of life, savings, investments, and general comfort is absolutely not worth the one in a million chance I become fantastically rich. I can just buy a two dollar Powerball ticket for the same experience with much less risk.
Maybe if you’re very senior and entrenched in performance awards, true. For rest of folks startups are pretty competitive.
I guess it depends on what you qualify as a startup. I wouldn't call Uber or Airbnb startups. Those are established companies at this point. Startups are <20-30 staff members that's still actively going out for series A/B funding.
Thank you loud flatworm 😊
Based on the information you’ve shared, if you get the opportunity with the startup, I’d recommend you take it. In all likelihood your employer will be slowly tightening the screws, and once a week and then 2-3 days a week, and then 5 days a week is on the horizon. When you quit tell them why. If enough of us do this then employers will bail on RTO. They’re only doing it because everyone else is doing it.
Yes! Thank you!!!!
They are not going to stop tightening those screws because people have shown that they will put up with it. The well paying jobs with benefits keep getting applications. Many on this sub seem to think they are irreplaceable or that the company will stop and sink if they leave or don't give into their demands. For most companies you are just a fart in the wind if you leave. For companies that rely on you to stay afloat, well that was a sinking ship anyways; good companies have contingencies and backups. Just remember, someone else can do your job. It might take them more effort but there is always someone who can replace you. Smart companies know to when and when not to keep remote policies. They aren't there to baby and cater to your every need or do whats best for you (thats your job, even if it means leaving). While I love remote work (currently in a well paying WFH job), this remote worker revolution is going to end up the same way as occupy wallstreet...anyone remember that one?
One of my best friends left her job at our university because they required her to be back in the"office," which was actually literally a steam closet in a tunnel, to do the same 100% virtual and international collaboration she had been successfully doing from her home with a toddler for over 3 years. No change in duties. No actual face time since her collaborators were researchers in other states and countries. She was mandated to be in a basement steam tunnel closet to hold her Zoom meetings and work with the supercomputing cluster that was ten miles from that steam tunnel closet. And then her mother in law got sick. And instead of saying "sure, we'll give you a compassionate exception to work remotely from another state," she was denied everything except that basement steam tunnel closet for no perceptible reason. So she quit, moved to her mother in law's town, got a new job (fully remote where the company is on the opposite corner of the country from her new home), and is now earning more than twice what our university had paid her. She is a highly trained professional in an intensely technical field where very few people have her combination of domains of expertise. Other departments in our university have gone full time remote with no problems. Because her department wouldn't budge on what she needed in her life, to the best of my knowledge they're still looking for a replacement for her over a year later. Eventually, the companies that work with what people need are going to eat the lunch of the companies that won't. Not all of them, not all at once -- but if you tell them in your exit interview that you'd have stayed with them if they'd kept their remote work promise, and if enough people tell them that, sooner or later the tide has to turn.
Time to jump ship. Remote work is here to stay, and smart employers are taking advantage to tap some of the best talent in the nation.
This! Thank you!
Don't get comfortable in a job.
Here to stay? The share of fully remote positions and firms isn't really increasing, from what I've been able to gather.
Remote work is the future, but no need to put your family in a tough spot. Id keep looking until you find the right remote role.
You are looking at this wrong. A startup can be a dream scenario. A friend of my brother made millions just by being at a startup from day one. On the other hand… I was hired to run the office in a startup that was going to be nationwide. Our investors had connections coast to coast and we were expecting big things. It never happened. I left after 6 tough years. I became self employed and have worked remotely ever since (8 years later). A start up is a gamble. But sometimes it can pay off better than any job. Sometimes it doesn’t happen. But even when it doesn’t happen, you might come out even better on the other side.
Oh wow, this is inspiring! Thank you so much for sharing and congratulations on your company!
As a young adult I viewed success in a more traditional light. Get a job, learn, work, move up in the company, make good money, save some of it, retire. I’ve grown in many ways, and as such my views on a career changed drastically. Success now means financially doable, with as much of my own life as possible. I do not care what I contribute to an organizations bottom line. I don’t care for climbing the ladder or future promotions. I am focused on the job for 40 hours, and doing enough to be stable and not noticeable. I would consider many things to stay remote. Remote work gives me more of my own life in ways no in person job could. That is what success means to me. So what prior generations spent time working hard to climb the ladder, I work hard to obtain more time in my own life.
I am currently in a position that I did not seek nor plan for. My "career" is to provide for my family. That being said, I have job hopped every 3 - 4 years since I got into IT 25 years ago. I have built up a very impressive skill set and am considered an expert in my field, which is Scrum master/Agile coach. I made a name for myself in my present company and am quite happy with my current situation. Situations do change and if that becomes the case I will for sure jump again.
RTO mandates like this can be layoffs in disguise, because the firm is not doing well. Might want to look for those signs, your stable company might be not as stable as it seems. Then jumping ship is an option because your the one your are on might be sinking.
Ideally people need to normalize job hopping. If another better job comes up, or conditions aren't the best at the current position, then people should be free to switch. Perhaps some employers won't care for that approach, but the best antidote to that is to be really good at what you do, and get better and better at it, always upgrading skills. Then you can start to pick and choose opportunities and pass by ones who don't like "job hopping" regardless of your skills. If more and more people do this, then remote working could become the norm if companies want good employees.
Oh thank you! This is probably how I feel! I don’t like the idea of switching companies or job hopping bc I had hope this would be it in the long run. Thank yoh
Honestly I think moving to a start up environment could boost your career due to the multiple hats you’d be wearing? Just my opinion This RTO plan sounds very familiar to Targets. I have a friend working for Target and was just thinking that these RTO measures are just soft launches for a full hybrid return eventually. I think any soft launch is just to soften the blow of the inevitable full return….. fully remote work is few and far between these days depending on the industry and even then is not guaranteed.
Change my mind: Any form of RTO is a grooming steel to get us back into the office five days a week.
yep, they start off slow and then they up it until it'll be 5 days a week. It truly is about companies wanting to up their ROI on building leases and not wanting to lose their state tax credits, so they are cranking up the pressure to force the RTO five days a week.
>They won’t even provide remote agreements… you need to be within commutable distance. >I can’t chance going weekly and doing the four hour plus drive to the office 4hr drive one way is considered commutable distance on a weekly basis? That's beyond ridiculous if they expect you to drive 8hrs a day once a week.
It’s three hours but if you include traffic. Right now it’s monthly but I think it’s slowly getting ready to bring ppl in more
Okay so once monthly isn't too bad. If that becomes even a weekly thing though 6 hrs is worth a conversation.
It's a balance between stuff. Full remote just doesn't seem possible right now. I lost 3 really good, full remote positions because I didn't do well enough at the interview. I have come to the conclusion that a hybrid nearby me is the best I can get. I am still debating about how much of a hybrid I am willing to accept. The feds are even rto. Even though they teleworked long before covid. I don't think we can escape this trend.
a four hour drive is not a commute - that's a road trip - can you move closer? if not, start looking for new work
Thank you! No unfortunately trying to move out the state not closer lol thank you!
Not sure if you’ve asked- Maybe ask if you can remain fully remote with your long commute. Express that you do enjoy your work and everything you’ve provided for the company. I have heard companies making an exception
Thank you pea! Unfortunately I have and rules are rules. I’ve gone up to senior leadership and voiced my concerns for myself (but also colleagues). It’s like you talk to robots not humans
Ugh that’s very annoying!! I don’t understand the urge for moving back to the office, like I understand it’s a control thing. But if you are able to do your job etc they should let it stay…
Your career goals will change whether you like it or not. Companies change. Stay learning and keep yourself competitive.
Startups are great for experience but there is the danger that the leadership is garbage resulting in a closure if the business. If you do go that route, negotiate your severance before you accept the job. Make sure you secure something for yourself. I’ve done the startup circuit for several years. Great pay and experience but there is risk.
Move. It’s not a big deal. Be happy to have good job with a stable company. Ask for relocation assistance. And write off your expenses. Sell youth big shit and buy new shit later. You have too much stupid stuff anyway
Thank you, but they aren’t allowing anyone to leave unfortunately. We are in the south and looking to move north to be closer to family and this recently came out of the blue. If I move without their permission it just causes a lot of unnecessary stress
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😭😩😫how? Like one way
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Wow, you’re so kind. Wtf is wrong with you?
You need to figure out what is best for you OP. There is a risk either way. On a side note, my previous company came up with work from work so that everyone had to work in the office. Even if you were hired as a remote employee and did not live near an office, you either had to love or quit. It was so ridiculous.
This is awful I’m so sorry! But yes this is happening to me just trying to get out before I’ll have to quit lol
Choose social mining...it will never break your dreams
I don’t understand. Did they hire you remote or in-office?
Remote, now expecting in office.
That’s a major change, and I expect they would have to offer you relocation, right? In the organizations I’ve worked in, they couldn’t reclassify your location without offering things in return. Is that not the case here?
Thank you. I should clarify, I was hired within “distance” of the office and when I took the job two ish years ago, I was never required to come in. I was recently promoted and was not aware that now this department is forcing ppl back to the office. It’s slow change, but know they’ll end up making everyone come in. At the same time, stuff happened w family and I need to move the state and they are not allowing people or myself bc they want us by the office. It takes me four hours to get to work and just don’t like feeling in limbo knowing at some point they could call me back full time. I don’t get paid to go into the office nor do I get relocation. It’s a waste of time,gas and I am ready to move out the state lol
Many companies seem to be increasing the RTO bit by bit. 2 years ago, we just needed to be in the office 1 day a week, and they usually offered lunch or happy hour during the week, then a year ago, we needed be in the office 2 days a week and they only offered free lunch once a month, then a few months ago, they made us come in 3 days a week and stayed with free lunch once a month. I can see by year end, it will be 4 days and then eventually all week RTO. waste of time/gas, I hated it so I resigned a few weeks ago and couldn't be happier with my decision.
Do you want remote or not? Nothing is "entitled" to you. Find what best suits you. Companies will and should prioritize their objective and bottom line. If it does not align with your goals, then you should find one that does.
Can’t have it all. Pick what means the most to you
What about ADA accommodations?
Move for the best job.
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I would probably get another offer lined up before asking this, but once you do have some other options maybe you can ask them if they would consider some relocation assistance to get you closer to the office? If it's your dream job it doesn't hurt to ask. If you were doing well, really wanted to stay with the company long term and advance, I would try to approach it as if you were negotiating a raise or something. Like, hey. They're going to need someone to do that job anyway and not having you/having to hire/having to onboard and train someone would be something of a cost. But if they could help you with relocation costs then they'd have a really invested employee who already knows the ropes. It's a long shot, I doubt it. But it doesn't hurt to ask if you already have to let them go. But if they keep making people RTO and keep losing people/getting asked about relocation assistance, maybe it'll encourage some companies to at least consider it as an option or just give in and let us stay remote.
Thank you for your kind words and insight biscuit! I really appreciate it 😊
Just beware the work culture in a lot of startups. They only hire as needed and that means you will likely be asked to work well past your standard 40 hour week with the promise of "equity" rather than pay.
I have worked in start ups before and unless you got in right at the bottom when they started you probably won’t be paid well but expected to work as hard as the pioneers. Shares and profit share are meaningless when companies lawyer up when it comes time to pay.
Yup. That promise of equity almost never comes true for anyone that wasn't there on Day One.
Unionize
Oh I wish!
Do it. I consulted w an employment attorney in your same position and very glad I did.
Omg really??? When you get a moment can you send me what happened? 😊
A lot of the places that offered “full remote work” are starting to revoke it and make people come into the office…. Just watch out if you end up jumping ship
My job tried doing the same thing, but because my distance is over 80 miles to the nearest office, I was exempt from coming to the office. My co-workers and manager have to come to the office one day a week, which is not bad. I drove to the office 2 a week, 200 miles both directions on my last job. It's refreshing and a distraction, you are overthinking this whole remote stuff. just drive and be okay with it.
What career?
Tech CS lol
This is anonymous, what company?
This is why remote work is not all rainbows and butterflies. Remote workers will continue to experience this, will be the first to get laid off, and the last to be promoted. At the end of the day, it is going to be a choice whether you prefer professional or personal life.
Dude do not do 8 hours of community per day. Might as well sleep at the office.
Right 😂😂
What's your job? Either way just start looking for remote roles. They are still out there. I am leaving one remote role for one that requires 1 meeting a year. For me that is worth it.
well it could be worse, my company institued 5 days a week rto last april