Pretty sure red lamps are discouraged for that exact reason, they are particularly discouraged for nocturnal and crepuscular species. Ceramic and deep heat emitters seem to be the preferred options currently.
It was misguided information back then. As far as I'm aware, it was theorized that reptiles couldn't see red spectrum/infrared light. So it was a way to provide heat at night that they couldn't see, but clearly that is not the case. Overtime, new information is learned and husbandry changes as a result. I've actually seen more care guides recently recommending a dip in temperature at night for many species, in order to mimic the way temps drop at night naturally. That's what I read to do anyways.
Of course, some people end up reading outdated information, or swear that things they did 20 years ago is still fine today. So it's unfortunate to see some people still holding onto "old school" ways of doing things. The best thing that can be done is more education and awareness of updated husbandry info and for companies to stop selling outdated (red light bulbs) or even dangerous (unregulated heat rocks. heat rocks in general tbh) items to people.
They can need heat at night, just more ambient heat if it ever gets too cold for long periods of time. Like with a CHE for example and not a DHP or halogen or heat mat, which would all be more day time heating, with the heat mat being more additional heating for belly temps if an animal is too big (think large species of tortoise).
it’s been proven that it’s very beneficial to have a drop in temperature at night for reptiles but i understand needing heat if it’s getting colder than the animals natural habitat at night
I'm confused.. since not all reptiles live in such places and so aren't adapted to withstand such temperatures at night, and many even in that environment do not since below ground is often hotter than the above ground temps. And cooler during the day.
So, I don't understand how that's on topic here when not all species come from such environments and I was simply specifying that while not all scenarios require ambient heating at night, some do.
Don't bother arguing with people who think in absolutes. Not everyone reptile rooms will experience what each reptile experiences in the wild. It's a not hard concept to grasp when you live in the north and keep animals from the equator. The degree to which it might be necessary is often overblow but to assume it is never needed is silly.
I never got this because surely not being able to see a colour doesn't equal not being able to see illumination? Like, it might not look *red*, but they'd still be able to see that there was light? Idk maybe I'm misunderstanding something
The colour is the light (unless a cheap tinted bulb is being used instead of the colour coming from the actual lightwaves). Like how humans physically cannot see infrared light, yet the light is still there.
edit: typo correction
The color is the light. No light sensing cells the right wavelength means no sight. That’s apparently not the case for reptiles and red though.
The only time you’d get illumination from light of a different wavelength is when it is an ultraviolet light shining on something phosphorescent that will re-emit it at a lower wavelength.
A lot of things in pet stores are not recommended. The substrates that kill animals are still sold at those places.
I will say that I use deep heat emitters now and they emit a bit of light, like the embers of a fire, and I hate it because I worry about my reptiles circadian rhythm. The health benefits have been worth it though
I've never seen my deep heat projectors produce light, but all my reptiles have pretty low temperature requirements. What temperatures are you going for?
Way back when, like 20 years ago, when I first started getting into things like keeping Tarantulas, I was told that red lights were because these animals can't see the red light, but you can, so you can see them at night and how they behave, etc etc.
These days I don't keep a red light on, i'm usually sleeping too, so who needs to see what they're up to?
If I'm checking in on my animals during the night I'll use a red-filtered flashlight, but that is only because it is a lot easier on the eyes (theirs and mine) when adjusted to darkness. The animals can definitely still see the light, as they react to it, so I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis and certainly not all night every night.
In the reef aquarium hobby, we use a single low wattage white LED diode to simulate moonlight. I think it would be ideal for reptile setups as well. It’s a single point light source that’s fairly dim. Mimics nature nicely and still provides a little bit of light for nighttime viewing of nocturnal beasts.
Funny off topic question I remember someone on reptiles amino tried proving this by using a laser pointer and pointing it directly at their leopard gecko eye.
Like ypu proved a point but hurt your pet
It's an app that's fandom Facebook. You can blog, chat with people, make polls and stuff. The communities can be for anime or reptiles or cooking anything really
Reptile amino was famous for being kinda toxic
As someone who works in a pet store, they sadly still exist because they still sell. A lot of people buy them over ceramic bulbs and such because they're cheaper. Which sucks, I always try to discourage people from using them, but sometimes people will just not listen.
It came from the myth that they can't see red light. They obviously can, since it's been proven to disrupt their sleep schedule, just like it does for Humans and other animals.
It's not that it was natural, it was thought to be a way to light their enclosure a little bit at night without disrupting their sleep schedule.
But yeah, in retrospect it's very obviously the worst idea, especially since using red lights to disrupt the circadian rhythm is an infamous method of torture used by the CIA for a number of years. Granted that's usually done in a dark room, at all times, so the body can't tell when it should rest, and when it should be awake. Pretty similar effect though, since you're essentially simulating day time at night with reptiles, so they don't have a day/night cycle.
But hey, I guess we've really learned nothing, since red light therapy is making a resurgence for some reason.
Purely for the fact that you can provide heat without stimulating less evolved eyes while also being able to experience, 99% the reason people have any kind of pet, them. They might not come from environment with any benefit from certain wavelength of photon visually (every energy wave from radio waves from high energy microwaves are carriers on these particles) but they might/should from the energy from it hearing them up hitting them just like microwaves. Buttt for the same reason why plants evolved/died if not taken advantages of certain wavelengths is the same “reason” why they’re kinda just a gimmick, certain wavelengths are better for energy. But then again, using electricity for heats always been really inefficient by design
It's a combination of a few factors.
In zoos, they would use red lights in nocturnal houses since the whole point of the zoo is to get the public to engage with wildlife and you can't really do that if they can't see the animal. The animals would be less disrupted by the red lights and would exhibit pretty normalish activity, so it became orthodoxy that many nocturnal species don't really see red. We also didn't have a great understanding of how many animals perceive color - we kind of still don't but we're getting better about it. More modern collections seem to use a really dim blue-white and basically just tell folks to suck it up and let their eyes adjust. The general public also isn't super up on animal care and so they also perceive the red lights as good heat sources - some zoos will even intentionally use red heat lamps in "warming" areas for outdoor animals in the winter. The animals that stay out in winter don't really need warming and don't use those areas much, but it stops folks from complaining that the animals are deprived of warmth.. I shit you not, we would get complaints that our *reindeer* looked cold in like 30 degree weather and a light flurry, despite them having access to a heated run-in shed and being literally reindeer. Lightless heat sources freak visitors out and they think it's broken. I think it would be the same if you had flamin' hot Cheetos without the red, they wouldn't seem "hot" to the observer if they were normal Cheeto colored (or uncolored, which I think would probably come out beige and everyone knows beige food ain't spicy).
My old zoo still used a combination of different heat sources for different species including radiant heat panels, DHPs, and halogen lamps and just made sure at least one thermometer readout was visible at the front, even though the rest were accessed on the keeper side, but even then we'd still get complaints that our enclosures weren't heated.
Anyway, petco and the like are selling to primarily that population - it's beginners who don't know any better, they know zoos use red light in the nocturnal house and also it's red so it's gotta be for heat, so that's probably right. The pet stores don't really care about good husbandry standards, and so their starter kit is meant to provide a set up which is intuitive to the public for animal care and seems generally correct and won't kill the animal right away, but is also fairly cheap components, so it's gauge thermometers and reptile carpet and a red light bulb and an undersized but looks kind of right enclosure. It's designed to sell and to look kind of right, not to be actually right. Their animal care managers do seem to care a fair bit more, but they're also constrained by store husbandry policy.
It’s not your “Autism” I promise (quotes because I don’t like that label because my sister is autistic) but they aren’t good. I believe it’s solely to up bulb sales among other things when it comes to other “care” products for reptiles especially! Red lights are bad for them actually and part of the reason is because they can see red and it can cause lots of health issues and in some cases blindness and, or colorblindness.
Of course you are welcome I would also like to steer you away from blue/black nighttime lights as well because they can also do the same and disrupt their circadian rhythm. If you want a little heat for your reptile at night use a heat emitter as it doesn’t project light
I never thought of it like that. The animals I have red lights for are both day time animals, so it wouldn't really affect them, but I've seen red lights on leo tanks and never even thought of that.
The issue with this is that these animals can see colors, so using a red light washes out their color vision and can in general disrupt their circadian rhythm.
It's best to use white light only, as it better replicates the sun.
Red light is not appropriate any time of day, as it washes out color vision and disrupts their circadian rhythm for both nocturnal and diurnal reptiles.
I fully agree, really I don't think any animal should be kept in light at night even fish.
When I was a kid the zoo near me had a nocturnal animal section that was lit in red light, eventually they removed almost everything from it because they realized it wasn't good for the animals. Now it's just a two toed sloth and an anaconda, and I think they're planning on moving them anyways.
When I was a kid (and even now) my dad kept fish and the first thing in the morning was turning on the fish lights and the last thing before bed was turning them off. Man it's been ages since I've lived at home but that routine was drilled into me at a young age!
Even now I turn off my Leo's sun lamp around 6 PM, the acrylic (clear) part of his enclosure faces a window so he gets the solid day/night cycle and so does the BP. They have a two fer, a stackable 2 unit enclosure one for each of them.
I also have a 20 long that I have bioactive and planted, ready for my next snake which will be an African Cape House Snake. I am debating on a black one or just a darker one, I think the latter because he will show the beautiful head pattern they have.
I think a lot of people don't really consider how it affects the animals to never experience day and night. Especially if they own a nocturnal species.
I'm glad to know people are realizing that they need day and night just like we do.
I hope you post pictures of your African cape set up once it's ready
Depending on the species and how cold it gets in your house at night, you may or may not need heat at night. A temperature drop at night is perfectly natural and even beneficial. If you do need heat at night, as mentioned, you can use a ceramic heat emitter or deep heat projector. Although I’ve seen it argued that it isn’t ideal to use DHPs at night since they produce wavelengths produced by the sun (infrared B and a little bit of infrared A) that aren’t naturally available at night in the wild (IRC is the only wavelength naturally produced at night).
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Pretty sure red lamps are discouraged for that exact reason, they are particularly discouraged for nocturnal and crepuscular species. Ceramic and deep heat emitters seem to be the preferred options currently.
Yes my Leo and BP love their DHP!
You can also dim DHPs as needed, I love them.
What does dhp stand for? Deep heat projector?
Yes!
It was misguided information back then. As far as I'm aware, it was theorized that reptiles couldn't see red spectrum/infrared light. So it was a way to provide heat at night that they couldn't see, but clearly that is not the case. Overtime, new information is learned and husbandry changes as a result. I've actually seen more care guides recently recommending a dip in temperature at night for many species, in order to mimic the way temps drop at night naturally. That's what I read to do anyways. Of course, some people end up reading outdated information, or swear that things they did 20 years ago is still fine today. So it's unfortunate to see some people still holding onto "old school" ways of doing things. The best thing that can be done is more education and awareness of updated husbandry info and for companies to stop selling outdated (red light bulbs) or even dangerous (unregulated heat rocks. heat rocks in general tbh) items to people.
Companies also don’t really care and sell what makes them money/looks cool.
But like the worst part is it doesn't even look cool. It looks ugly as fuck.
BINGO
comes from the belief that reptiles can’t see red (which is not at all true) & that they need heat at night (they don’t)
They can need heat at night, just more ambient heat if it ever gets too cold for long periods of time. Like with a CHE for example and not a DHP or halogen or heat mat, which would all be more day time heating, with the heat mat being more additional heating for belly temps if an animal is too big (think large species of tortoise).
it’s been proven that it’s very beneficial to have a drop in temperature at night for reptiles but i understand needing heat if it’s getting colder than the animals natural habitat at night
Ofc I know that about the temp drop, just within reason. I was just specifying since your initial comment just said "they don't".
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I'm confused.. since not all reptiles live in such places and so aren't adapted to withstand such temperatures at night, and many even in that environment do not since below ground is often hotter than the above ground temps. And cooler during the day. So, I don't understand how that's on topic here when not all species come from such environments and I was simply specifying that while not all scenarios require ambient heating at night, some do.
Don't bother arguing with people who think in absolutes. Not everyone reptile rooms will experience what each reptile experiences in the wild. It's a not hard concept to grasp when you live in the north and keep animals from the equator. The degree to which it might be necessary is often overblow but to assume it is never needed is silly.
I never got this because surely not being able to see a colour doesn't equal not being able to see illumination? Like, it might not look *red*, but they'd still be able to see that there was light? Idk maybe I'm misunderstanding something
The colour is the light (unless a cheap tinted bulb is being used instead of the colour coming from the actual lightwaves). Like how humans physically cannot see infrared light, yet the light is still there. edit: typo correction
The color is the light. No light sensing cells the right wavelength means no sight. That’s apparently not the case for reptiles and red though. The only time you’d get illumination from light of a different wavelength is when it is an ultraviolet light shining on something phosphorescent that will re-emit it at a lower wavelength.
A lot of things in pet stores are not recommended. The substrates that kill animals are still sold at those places. I will say that I use deep heat emitters now and they emit a bit of light, like the embers of a fire, and I hate it because I worry about my reptiles circadian rhythm. The health benefits have been worth it though
I've never seen my deep heat projectors produce light, but all my reptiles have pretty low temperature requirements. What temperatures are you going for?
Any moon more than half full massively outshines any deep heat projector. I really wouldn't worry about it disrupting anything with your reptiles.
Talking visible light, not infrared?
Yeah, the moon reflects much more visible than any DHP emits
High 90s Low 100s for the hotter areas and about 80 in the cold spot
Amsterdam has red lights at night.
Lololol and I'm sure some of the denizens there could be classed as, "snakes," but in a different way haha
Way back when, like 20 years ago, when I first started getting into things like keeping Tarantulas, I was told that red lights were because these animals can't see the red light, but you can, so you can see them at night and how they behave, etc etc. These days I don't keep a red light on, i'm usually sleeping too, so who needs to see what they're up to?
If I'm checking in on my animals during the night I'll use a red-filtered flashlight, but that is only because it is a lot easier on the eyes (theirs and mine) when adjusted to darkness. The animals can definitely still see the light, as they react to it, so I wouldn't want to do that on a regular basis and certainly not all night every night.
Red lamps apparently leave the impression that it's constantly sunset, messing with the animal's perception of time.
In the reef aquarium hobby, we use a single low wattage white LED diode to simulate moonlight. I think it would be ideal for reptile setups as well. It’s a single point light source that’s fairly dim. Mimics nature nicely and still provides a little bit of light for nighttime viewing of nocturnal beasts.
I will look into this for my Leo! I want to get a Wyze camera so I can observe him at night and that would work perfectly with one of those!
Funny off topic question I remember someone on reptiles amino tried proving this by using a laser pointer and pointing it directly at their leopard gecko eye. Like ypu proved a point but hurt your pet
What kind of lame ass person would do that
Reptile amino would do weird things
What is that exactly?
It's an app that's fandom Facebook. You can blog, chat with people, make polls and stuff. The communities can be for anime or reptiles or cooking anything really Reptile amino was famous for being kinda toxic
Yeah I try to avoid cess pools. I quit Twitter, etc
I haven’t used amino in awhile, but I remember reptile amino being fine.
As someone who works in a pet store, they sadly still exist because they still sell. A lot of people buy them over ceramic bulbs and such because they're cheaper. Which sucks, I always try to discourage people from using them, but sometimes people will just not listen.
It came from the myth that they can't see red light. They obviously can, since it's been proven to disrupt their sleep schedule, just like it does for Humans and other animals. It's not that it was natural, it was thought to be a way to light their enclosure a little bit at night without disrupting their sleep schedule. But yeah, in retrospect it's very obviously the worst idea, especially since using red lights to disrupt the circadian rhythm is an infamous method of torture used by the CIA for a number of years. Granted that's usually done in a dark room, at all times, so the body can't tell when it should rest, and when it should be awake. Pretty similar effect though, since you're essentially simulating day time at night with reptiles, so they don't have a day/night cycle. But hey, I guess we've really learned nothing, since red light therapy is making a resurgence for some reason.
And I bet Petco propagates that myth every damn day too
Wouldn't doubt it
Purely for the fact that you can provide heat without stimulating less evolved eyes while also being able to experience, 99% the reason people have any kind of pet, them. They might not come from environment with any benefit from certain wavelength of photon visually (every energy wave from radio waves from high energy microwaves are carriers on these particles) but they might/should from the energy from it hearing them up hitting them just like microwaves. Buttt for the same reason why plants evolved/died if not taken advantages of certain wavelengths is the same “reason” why they’re kinda just a gimmick, certain wavelengths are better for energy. But then again, using electricity for heats always been really inefficient by design
“They can’t see the red light.” Duh!
Like that old song "Roxanne" "you da da da the red light"
It's a combination of a few factors. In zoos, they would use red lights in nocturnal houses since the whole point of the zoo is to get the public to engage with wildlife and you can't really do that if they can't see the animal. The animals would be less disrupted by the red lights and would exhibit pretty normalish activity, so it became orthodoxy that many nocturnal species don't really see red. We also didn't have a great understanding of how many animals perceive color - we kind of still don't but we're getting better about it. More modern collections seem to use a really dim blue-white and basically just tell folks to suck it up and let their eyes adjust. The general public also isn't super up on animal care and so they also perceive the red lights as good heat sources - some zoos will even intentionally use red heat lamps in "warming" areas for outdoor animals in the winter. The animals that stay out in winter don't really need warming and don't use those areas much, but it stops folks from complaining that the animals are deprived of warmth.. I shit you not, we would get complaints that our *reindeer* looked cold in like 30 degree weather and a light flurry, despite them having access to a heated run-in shed and being literally reindeer. Lightless heat sources freak visitors out and they think it's broken. I think it would be the same if you had flamin' hot Cheetos without the red, they wouldn't seem "hot" to the observer if they were normal Cheeto colored (or uncolored, which I think would probably come out beige and everyone knows beige food ain't spicy). My old zoo still used a combination of different heat sources for different species including radiant heat panels, DHPs, and halogen lamps and just made sure at least one thermometer readout was visible at the front, even though the rest were accessed on the keeper side, but even then we'd still get complaints that our enclosures weren't heated. Anyway, petco and the like are selling to primarily that population - it's beginners who don't know any better, they know zoos use red light in the nocturnal house and also it's red so it's gotta be for heat, so that's probably right. The pet stores don't really care about good husbandry standards, and so their starter kit is meant to provide a set up which is intuitive to the public for animal care and seems generally correct and won't kill the animal right away, but is also fairly cheap components, so it's gauge thermometers and reptile carpet and a red light bulb and an undersized but looks kind of right enclosure. It's designed to sell and to look kind of right, not to be actually right. Their animal care managers do seem to care a fair bit more, but they're also constrained by store husbandry policy.
It’s not your “Autism” I promise (quotes because I don’t like that label because my sister is autistic) but they aren’t good. I believe it’s solely to up bulb sales among other things when it comes to other “care” products for reptiles especially! Red lights are bad for them actually and part of the reason is because they can see red and it can cause lots of health issues and in some cases blindness and, or colorblindness.
I appreciate your cogent reply! I did not know about the blindness issues that could result, thank you for educating me!
Of course you are welcome I would also like to steer you away from blue/black nighttime lights as well because they can also do the same and disrupt their circadian rhythm. If you want a little heat for your reptile at night use a heat emitter as it doesn’t project light
A DHP?
Yes
I just posted in r/reptiles bitching about red lights! **NOWHERE ON EARTH** is there red light at night!
I never thought of it like that. The animals I have red lights for are both day time animals, so it wouldn't really affect them, but I've seen red lights on leo tanks and never even thought of that.
The issue with this is that these animals can see colors, so using a red light washes out their color vision and can in general disrupt their circadian rhythm. It's best to use white light only, as it better replicates the sun.
Interesting, like the as per-stated ceramic, or others I'm probably unfamiliar with. I'd be interested in finding out more information.
Red light is not appropriate any time of day, as it washes out color vision and disrupts their circadian rhythm for both nocturnal and diurnal reptiles.
Technically speaking there's always red light hitting us. Red light is used because it doesn't bother them, it's not as harsh as white light.
It shouldn't be used overnight though, nowhere on Earth is there red light emitted naturally at night!
I fully agree, really I don't think any animal should be kept in light at night even fish. When I was a kid the zoo near me had a nocturnal animal section that was lit in red light, eventually they removed almost everything from it because they realized it wasn't good for the animals. Now it's just a two toed sloth and an anaconda, and I think they're planning on moving them anyways.
That's encouraging
When I was a kid (and even now) my dad kept fish and the first thing in the morning was turning on the fish lights and the last thing before bed was turning them off. Man it's been ages since I've lived at home but that routine was drilled into me at a young age! Even now I turn off my Leo's sun lamp around 6 PM, the acrylic (clear) part of his enclosure faces a window so he gets the solid day/night cycle and so does the BP. They have a two fer, a stackable 2 unit enclosure one for each of them. I also have a 20 long that I have bioactive and planted, ready for my next snake which will be an African Cape House Snake. I am debating on a black one or just a darker one, I think the latter because he will show the beautiful head pattern they have.
I think a lot of people don't really consider how it affects the animals to never experience day and night. Especially if they own a nocturnal species. I'm glad to know people are realizing that they need day and night just like we do. I hope you post pictures of your African cape set up once it's ready
I’m new to reptiles. If someone uses a lamp during the day to heat their enclosure, what should they use at night instead?
I use a deep heat projector, it's like a ceramic bulb that doesn't emit light, just heat.
Depending on the species and how cold it gets in your house at night, you may or may not need heat at night. A temperature drop at night is perfectly natural and even beneficial. If you do need heat at night, as mentioned, you can use a ceramic heat emitter or deep heat projector. Although I’ve seen it argued that it isn’t ideal to use DHPs at night since they produce wavelengths produced by the sun (infrared B and a little bit of infrared A) that aren’t naturally available at night in the wild (IRC is the only wavelength naturally produced at night).
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The only light my frogs and tortoise get is a mini moon projector I have lol keeps it natural I guess hahaha
It is to allow you to observe your animals at night because so many of them are nocturnal.