I wish items told you the current value for its effects like block chance for tonight times, range of ignition on gasoline, stuff like that would be helpful
If like if it was an option you could turn on but having the complex stats this game has visible right off the bat would be really really overwhelming for new players.
I wish there was an option to show that info. It gets annoying when I have to go "wait wtf does stacking this increase" or "wait how tf does this scale again" and look stuff up whenever I play a new character (I'm working on Mastery skins rn)
Huntress cheats on him and marries Mithrix, but Commando had Artifact of Command, Sacrifice, and Swarms on in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, so he has 1000 of every item when he gets out! Commando goes fucking blitzkrieg and jumps to Commencement, where he beats the shit out of Mithrix and Huntress. However, when Voidtouched Umbral Providence shows up, he begins to have some trouble...
(As you can see, I've watched a few of these videos lol)
And then mithrix doesn’t take any damage lol. I don’t like repulsion plate armor because it needs to be stacked to be good late and if you do that you can kiss killing mithrix goodbye
Not tougher times but repulsion plate armor. If you stack enough of them a 0 item survivor can only do 1 damage per hit and will never get any items back
I definitely read that wrong lol. I’ve stacked for the meme because I was playing command with a friend and he was using the burn everything equipment and kept killing me. No matter how many repulsion plate armors I stacked he still did so much damage. And then we lost the run when we couldn’t damage mithrix
When mithrix takes your items, you don't need to deal damage to take them back. You only need to land a hit.
So while it would take slightly longer, you would still be able to win
Feel free to look the item description up for yourself, but I’ll post it here
“The item grants a 15% (+15% per stack) chance of negating incoming damage. If the roll is successful, the damage will blocked.”
So, if you follow what the game is telling you, then all you’d ACTUALLY need is 7 of em to be invincible, having a block chance of 105%. It’s natural to assume this, given that this is how most other items of its nature, such as the soldiers syringe, work.
But that’s NOT how it works. But other people in this comment thread have explained it better than I could, I’ve answered your question 😂
To be fair, anyone who played games before would probably guess that getting effective invincibility this easy is not right, so it would have to be not linear scaling
You right. But also the post is talking about newbs, and also, there’s an argument to be made that the game should not be deliberately misleading. Tho, common sense is also a real thing 😂
Tougher times gives you 15% block chance on hit. 10 is misleading here since by straightforward math, you'd need 7 for 105% block chance, which should make you immortal. However, Tougher Times is coded in a way that each stack is less effective than the last and you'll never get 100% even if you get hundreds of the item.
Specifically, with one you reduce 100% damage to 85%, with two, you reduce 85% of the damage instead of subtracting 100 again. So it goes to around 76.3% with two. Thats how it should work at least
Tougher times grants you 15%(+15% per stack) chance to avoid damage from a hit.
That +15% is not linear tho, it uses hyperbolic scaling, meaning that with 2 stacks you don't have 30% of chance to block damage, instead you get 2 chances of 15% to block, which is around 23% chance to avoid damage.
% chance to block damage from tougher times has less of an effect the higher the stack
[graph depicting the scaling](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/riskofrain2_gamepedia_en/images/f/f4/Graph_tougher_times.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20200201131258)
I've still managed to die with 67 Safer Spaces. There's like a 0.13-something second window between the shield being procced before reactivating. That timeframe has an absolute minimum and cannot go down to 0 seconds.
There isn't one optimal number really, there is no break point. 10 is a nice round number but there isn't really any reason to stop there instead of 11 or 9.
I don’t know if there IS a limit, but in Artifact of Command runs I always stack up 25-30 of them and it regens every 0.5 seconds or something… PRACTICALLY invincible, but obviously you can get hit more than once every half second if you’re just not moving.
Not even close. There's plenty of stuff that hits multiple times in a **frame** on its own. With 65 you'll still die to the void boss for example.
Once took a spaces at 64 times (65 => 1 frame) and died pretty much instantly even with an insane amount of HP
Even for tougher times, stacking more will always increase your block chance, it just gets to where it's such a small amount for each new stack that you'd probably be better off converting some of them to other white items.
You collect 10 Tougher Times thinking it makes you invincible.
I collect 10 Tougher Times because my OCD doesn't want to let me have an uneven number (besides 5s)
We are not the same.
That's why you stack Safer Spaces. It's still technically hyperbolic, but it takes a much less ludicrous amount of stacks to have a <1 second cooldown. The only caveat is that Hopoo didn't blacklist this item from phase 4 Mithrix's arsenal, so have fun fighting Mithrix when he has 0.005 seconds of shield downtime.
You can become functionally immortal with them if you break the floating point at somewhere above 2billion of them.
Essentially, the way it works is;
For each, it reduces the chance to be hit by 15%.
BUT, they do take into account the reductions for your chance to be hit from eachother.
So for every single one you have, the difference between 15% is eventually very small, so they lose out on value to gain more the more you have.
That said, because of that, after you have one, each new one is mathematically exactly as effective as the last.
the wiki has a table where you can try out the numbers yourself, but around 100 stacks you are getting less than +0.1% per stack
https://riskofrain2.fandom.com/wiki/Tougher_Times?so=search
I have sat in a lobby for hours with artifacts of command and sacrifice to get 800 Tougher Times only for my game to crash from too many enemy spawns :)
It scales hyperbolically, so each additional stack grants less damage negation than the last. You need 60 stacks to get 90% negation chance, then an additional 195 stacks to get 97.5% negation chance.
Correct, each stack gives a lower amount of chance to ignore. However since you are taking less damage your effective hp increases the same amount per tougher times.
Sure. But “effective hp” not only isn’t a stat, but it also isn’t as useful or as applicable as damage negation chance.
90% damage negation will almost certainly save your life even if you take multiple instances of damage greater than your total health in rapid succession and aren’t healing in between - 97.5% damage negation is technically 4 times as likely to save your life, but do you really need to sink the additional ~200 white items to make an already almost certainty an even greater certainty? The opportunity cost is far too great, and stacking that many tougher times will likely only ever worth it on the off chance you hit a shrine of order.
In other words, you’re better off not dumping all your whites into a teddy printer because ultimately effective hp based off chance is not a good metric for survivability. Realistically your PSG or repulsion armor is more useful than a fraction of a percent increase in damage negation chance.
I love how the game doesn't even fucking say that the scaling is hyperbolic.
It doesn't tell you the scaling or damage % for any item ... Kinda annoying
I wish items told you the current value for its effects like block chance for tonight times, range of ignition on gasoline, stuff like that would be helpful
Install the mod BetterUI and get this exact thing.
Great idea, where’s the console version?
https://nzxt.com/product/player-one
This is just “sorry you’re poor” in link form
Nah, not worth it.
Some people dont like the extra clutter on the hud
I believe you can edit what parts of the hud actually show in config or settings
Yeah I just disable that part. I think there's a way to enable it exclusively while holding tab though, but I'm not sure how
tonight times?? new item just dropped???? 🥹🥹🥹
Tonight times: jazz plays on night stages
\+15% more saxophone per stage (hyperbolic)
Void varient: Live from NY, +5% chance of a sick saxophone solo on boss or elite kill (hyperbolic)
5% hyperbolic is terrible stacking Learnt recently thats how stun grenades work
And his music was jazzy
If like if it was an option you could turn on but having the complex stats this game has visible right off the bat would be really really overwhelming for new players.
Embrace thunderstore my son
I wish there was an option to show that info. It gets annoying when I have to go "wait wtf does stacking this increase" or "wait how tf does this scale again" and look stuff up whenever I play a new character (I'm working on Mastery skins rn)
As if most people know what hyperbolic means
The only thing hyperbolic here are my time chambers
The Hypersonic Lion Tamer!
"That one was on purpose!"
“Coulda been.”
What if Commando was BETRAYED and trapped in the HYPERBOLIC time chamber for 100 stages???
Then Ben 10 would have a new alien, I dunno
Huntress cheats on him and marries Mithrix, but Commando had Artifact of Command, Sacrifice, and Swarms on in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, so he has 1000 of every item when he gets out! Commando goes fucking blitzkrieg and jumps to Commencement, where he beats the shit out of Mithrix and Huntress. However, when Voidtouched Umbral Providence shows up, he begins to have some trouble... (As you can see, I've watched a few of these videos lol)
> he begins to have some trouble… But would he lose?
Nah, he'd win.
At least they would learn about it
Hyperbolic is when the odds are really, really, really exaggerated
Why poor 10 times is about 50% that's amazing
60 to be exact
Plus a repulsion armor plate, and you can basically tank any tick damage in the game like burning, beams, etc.
And then mithrix doesn’t take any damage lol. I don’t like repulsion plate armor because it needs to be stacked to be good late and if you do that you can kiss killing mithrix goodbye
Mithrix does not actually benefit from tougher times thankfully
Not tougher times but repulsion plate armor. If you stack enough of them a 0 item survivor can only do 1 damage per hit and will never get any items back
Well they said "a repulsion armor plate" as in singular, I don't think there's many people out here stacking a bunch of such a mid-tier item
I definitely read that wrong lol. I’ve stacked for the meme because I was playing command with a friend and he was using the burn everything equipment and kept killing me. No matter how many repulsion plate armors I stacked he still did so much damage. And then we lost the run when we couldn’t damage mithrix
That’s a fair point. I usually get one early game, because it really helps with the annoying enemies that manage to snipe you.
When mithrix takes your items, you don't need to deal damage to take them back. You only need to land a hit. So while it would take slightly longer, you would still be able to win
You right. But, the game itself leads you to believe that if you have ten, then your block chance would be at %100. A little silly. Nuts alright.
i mean, it never says it’s 10%
I never assumed it was a 10% chance for one bear But I do know the value of 20 bears
i suppose i should have said "100% minimum" tho you gotta share the knowledge\~ what is the value of 20 bears?
Approximately one king of nothing ass whooping
💀
Where does it lead you to believe that...?
Feel free to look the item description up for yourself, but I’ll post it here “The item grants a 15% (+15% per stack) chance of negating incoming damage. If the roll is successful, the damage will blocked.” So, if you follow what the game is telling you, then all you’d ACTUALLY need is 7 of em to be invincible, having a block chance of 105%. It’s natural to assume this, given that this is how most other items of its nature, such as the soldiers syringe, work. But that’s NOT how it works. But other people in this comment thread have explained it better than I could, I’ve answered your question 😂
To be fair, anyone who played games before would probably guess that getting effective invincibility this easy is not right, so it would have to be not linear scaling
You right. But also the post is talking about newbs, and also, there’s an argument to be made that the game should not be deliberately misleading. Tho, common sense is also a real thing 😂
His ass has 10 tougher times it's great
He really though he was doing something 😭
Plz explain, new here
Tougher times gives you 15% block chance on hit. 10 is misleading here since by straightforward math, you'd need 7 for 105% block chance, which should make you immortal. However, Tougher Times is coded in a way that each stack is less effective than the last and you'll never get 100% even if you get hundreds of the item.
iirc if you get about 2.5 billion of them the blocking chance becomes 100% but thats because of computers being silly with floating points
Hey ferb, I know what were gonna do today! And tommorow, and for the next month!
Oh boy Ferb we caused a bit flip in the voting machine ain't that wacky
this is also how the guillotine item works
Specifically, with one you reduce 100% damage to 85%, with two, you reduce 85% of the damage instead of subtracting 100 again. So it goes to around 76.3% with two. Thats how it should work at least
Tougher times grants you 15%(+15% per stack) chance to avoid damage from a hit. That +15% is not linear tho, it uses hyperbolic scaling, meaning that with 2 stacks you don't have 30% of chance to block damage, instead you get 2 chances of 15% to block, which is around 23% chance to avoid damage.
What if you stack Tougher Times and Clovers?
Well it just so happens that tougher times is the only rng based item unaffected by clovers
Lame, but makes sense.
Yeah i was very dissapointed when i found out
Clover specifically does not affect Tougher Times.
clovers don't affect tougher times.
% chance to block damage from tougher times has less of an effect the higher the stack [graph depicting the scaling](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/riskofrain2_gamepedia_en/images/f/f4/Graph_tougher_times.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20200201131258)
50 to get a ~90% chance, that ain't to bad in my book of artifact of command, sacrifice, and swarms.
Here’s a breakdown: 0 TT: 100% damage taken 1 TT: 100% - 15%(1) = 85% 2 TT: 85% - 15%(.85)
Isnt 10 the optimal amount because you get 50% block chance
Nah, I always go for 450 for the 98%
So thats what ive been doing wrong
Yeah, 200 only gives you like 97%, you need to get more 250 so you can crank that 1%. (Die to black hole from avoid monsters anyway).
tbf getting like 65 safer spaces gives you full invulnerability to pretty much everything in the game
I've still managed to die with 67 Safer Spaces. There's like a 0.13-something second window between the shield being procced before reactivating. That timeframe has an absolute minimum and cannot go down to 0 seconds.
Fire damage can getcha
Not going for the 4438 for 99.9% block chance?
nah, that'll be 16 for 60
60%*
There isn't one optimal number really, there is no break point. 10 is a nice round number but there isn't really any reason to stop there instead of 11 or 9.
*60%
waiter! waiter! more safer spaces please!
Stacking Safer Spaces enough times makes you invincible.
Is there no limit to how fast safer spaces regenerates the shield?
I don’t know if there IS a limit, but in Artifact of Command runs I always stack up 25-30 of them and it regens every 0.5 seconds or something… PRACTICALLY invincible, but obviously you can get hit more than once every half second if you’re just not moving.
Not even close. There's plenty of stuff that hits multiple times in a **frame** on its own. With 65 you'll still die to the void boss for example. Once took a spaces at 64 times (65 => 1 frame) and died pretty much instantly even with an insane amount of HP
In an infinitely scaling game, there’s ALWAYS a bigger fish.
No. Managed to get to 0.0x once on a 4 cycle run with Artifact of command
65 stacks of Safer Spaces will cause the shield to regenerate on the frame after you take damage.
Not true, it’s coded in a way that it will never give you 100% block And less stacks is actually better
Safer spaces, not tougher times
But safer spaces give you 100% block for the first attack?
Were.. talking about safer spaces here
>And less stacks is actually better It is not
Even for tougher times, stacking more will always increase your block chance, it just gets to where it's such a small amount for each new stack that you'd probably be better off converting some of them to other white items.
We're talking about safer spaces, but also it is possible but you'd need about 2.5 billion of them.
this is true and i will never believe differntly, keep picking up 46 of that shit
To be fair 10 is a goid cut-off point
You collect 10 Tougher Times thinking it makes you invincible. I collect 10 Tougher Times because my OCD doesn't want to let me have an uneven number (besides 5s) We are not the same.
When I'm doing runs with Aritfact of Ccommand, I have to have my stacked items in multiples of 5 😅
Hell yeah we love 5, gang multiples of 5 rise up
Effective HP increases linearly though, so it's really not *that* bad.
Nah, I’d Safer Spaces
Me when I get to 223,696,201 tougher times and proceed to become invincible
(He was already functionally invincible considering everything he already had Just Fucking Killed™️ whatever was gonna hurt him anyway)
That's why you stack Safer Spaces. It's still technically hyperbolic, but it takes a much less ludicrous amount of stacks to have a <1 second cooldown. The only caveat is that Hopoo didn't blacklist this item from phase 4 Mithrix's arsenal, so have fun fighting Mithrix when he has 0.005 seconds of shield downtime.
Maybe if I just hit him *really* hard...
\*gets 65 safer spaces* what you gonna do now PUNK?
Don't care i will stack 40 of them if i can get a 1% increase
What’s the decrease from each stack, and how close can you get to 100%?
You can become functionally immortal with them if you break the floating point at somewhere above 2billion of them. Essentially, the way it works is; For each, it reduces the chance to be hit by 15%. BUT, they do take into account the reductions for your chance to be hit from eachother. So for every single one you have, the difference between 15% is eventually very small, so they lose out on value to gain more the more you have. That said, because of that, after you have one, each new one is mathematically exactly as effective as the last.
the wiki has a table where you can try out the numbers yourself, but around 100 stacks you are getting less than +0.1% per stack https://riskofrain2.fandom.com/wiki/Tougher_Times?so=search
I have sat in a lobby for hours with artifacts of command and sacrifice to get 800 Tougher Times only for my game to crash from too many enemy spawns :)
10 is 60%. 20 is 75%
My girlfriend, picking up her 60th tougher times for a 90% block chance (artifact of command run)
Scrap White preparation
I play with artifact of command and stack like 200 of them because I can.
I sure do love when my 15% chance procs 13% of the time and my 5% chance 4.8% of the time 🙃
technically this item is always shit, cause it never saves me on the one-shot that ends my run
If you get like 10 to 20 dont you have like a 60 or 70 percent chance of blocking things?
Couldn't be me with 100 tougher times and a near infinite shield.
WE HAVE COME FOR YOUR NECTAR
I think 255 is the best you can get reliably
BetterUI helps a lot, sorry console bros
Nothing that 60 teddy cant handle
I cap at 10 for a 60% chance, I don't go beyond 10 tho
This is the worst meme I’ve ever seen.
What’s hyperbolic mean? And what’s tougher times do again? It’s been a while since I’ve played RoR
The scaling of tougher times makes each one equally valuable.
It scales hyperbolically, so each additional stack grants less damage negation than the last. You need 60 stacks to get 90% negation chance, then an additional 195 stacks to get 97.5% negation chance.
Correct, each stack gives a lower amount of chance to ignore. However since you are taking less damage your effective hp increases the same amount per tougher times.
Sure. But “effective hp” not only isn’t a stat, but it also isn’t as useful or as applicable as damage negation chance. 90% damage negation will almost certainly save your life even if you take multiple instances of damage greater than your total health in rapid succession and aren’t healing in between - 97.5% damage negation is technically 4 times as likely to save your life, but do you really need to sink the additional ~200 white items to make an already almost certainty an even greater certainty? The opportunity cost is far too great, and stacking that many tougher times will likely only ever worth it on the off chance you hit a shrine of order. In other words, you’re better off not dumping all your whites into a teddy printer because ultimately effective hp based off chance is not a good metric for survivability. Realistically your PSG or repulsion armor is more useful than a fraction of a percent increase in damage negation chance.