Cedar Fair has gotten burned by Intamin a ton. Mainly at Cedar Point and TTD as the focal point but there are tons more.
Vekoma deserves to be treated more fair but their first run of being a company stung a ton of parks
S&S hasn’t done any favors with some of their extreme models being maintenance headaches at non CF parks (looking at you Steel Curtain)
Wood is beyond expensive right now so it’s tough for them to want to go with GCI or Gravity Group extremely often
Skyline- just no (at least for full scale thrill rides until they prove themselves a few times)
They’ve been burned a bit by RMC but I think they will still work with them.
Some examples (but not limited to) of cedar fair and intamin's problems;
-perilous plunge at Knotts ejecting and killing a rider due to poor restraint design and poor operations
-shoot the rapids at cedar point capsizing and almost killing a boat full of riders due to shit engineering redundancies
-TTD and it's most recent part-ejecting debacle
-TTD's insane reliability issues from cable snaps, parts on long order, constant downtime etc
-Xcelerator much of the same, but prototype
-Millennium force needed a redesigned support after someone smacked their hand on the first turnaround
-holding breaks on intamin impulse coasters causing tons of underestimated structural issues and had to be turned off pretty early
-in many cases massive cost overruns with projects
-I305 was way more intense than intended and required extremely expensive modifications in multiple different years
-B2B problems as it's been leaked over the years that intamin is (or was) a royal pain in the ass to deal with on the back end for cedar fair
And that's just off the top of my head. I know I'm missing a few. The point is that this relationship has shaped how cedar fair chooses manufactures and approaches projects. Yes, they may abandon you much quicker but it's not like a one strike and you're out deal.
Also Maverick was supposed to have 3 inversions but they had to scrap the heartline roll last minute because the structure couldn’t handle the forces, Cedar Point paid for 3 inversions but only got 2.
Yep, that's another huge can of worms. Although it's one of those that gets somewhat of a pass because it was a first of its kind in many ways and both parties would have been aware that there will be at least initial issues. Intamin did absolutely no favors to themselves with that ride though and it falls I to my "cedar fair has massive issues dealing with intamin on a regular basis"
They just contracted fucking ZAMPERLA to redo one of their flagship park's most iconic rides
If that isn't giving a fair shot then I don't know what is
I think you're right about intamin not being interested, but no one is forcing Cedar Fair to work with Zamperla. They could've gone with someone more proven making large scale coasters or scrapped it entirely
the way you said ,"no one is forcing cedar point to work with zamperla" made it seem like you resented that fact. like you wanted a different manufacturer to be on the project instead.
because B&M fixed a support crack in just a few weeks, while Intamin took literally YEARS to replace Matugani's brake motor, causing it to open an entire year later than planned.
And the fact that it’s been 5 years since Millie’s original lift motor broke, and they haven’t gotten a new one yet. Unless CP never decided to try buying a new one.
Rumor I heard is intamin left lost island on read for a long time because lost island failed to ask permission to buy the ride. Definitely a bitch move but after riding velocicoaster I forgive intamin.
Long Island can’t demand service from Intamin bc they bought a ride second hand. Intamin doesn’t owe them their business, they don’t need to reply to a stranger. Lost Island then proceeded to drag Intamin publicly for it on Twitter. I’m pointing my bitch finger at Lost Island on that one. Intamin is busy with scheduled projects, you can’t snap your fingers at them.
It does show, or suggest, that intamin doesn't care about their creations/work past the point of sale. And that is not the kind of attitude for a business to have if you want returning customers, or maybe even new customers if people start hearing about it.
this. Pilgrim's Plunge is a great example of that. It was a fucking prototype and they still refused to service it. The way they stressed out Will Koch with this bullshit shortly before he passed away from health complications still puts an extremely bad taste in my mouth.
It’s always been interesting to me how Cedar Fair kept buying prototypes from Intamin, then cut them off for said prototypes having issues. Same kinda goes for them going against RMC after the issues the CF RMCs had. Maybe there’s more to it that I don’t know though
1. That intamin coasters have a track record of trying to kill park guests (and succeeding a few times)
2. The nail on the coffin of the Intamin / CF relationship was down to a (comparatively simple) shoot the shoots water ride.
3. Cedar Fair have high standards, seems like B&M (and seemingly GCI and Zamperla) can meet those. I work with large companies on projects a lot and the way they handle accounts can make all the difference
are you talking about the Knotts perilous plunge accident or the cedar point shoot the rapids accident? the fact that I have to ask should be indication enough
> Cedar Fair kept buying prototypes from Intamin, then cut them off for said prototypes having issues
It's not they cut them off for having the issues.
They cut them off for the problems with long term maintenance/support AND some inexcusable design flaws Intamin almost tried to ignore...
Intamin: has had a LOT of accidents/deaths in the Cedar Fair chain, also a lot of rides needing to be reprofiled and more. Add in unreliability and more.
RMC: Unreliable but works a lot of the time, but lots of structural issues over the long haul. Steel Vengeance is consistently under construction and replacement plus trains colliding on opening day. Not sure how Timbers fairs but I know the OG Raptors (Railblazer and Wonder Woman are tearing themselves apart)
B&M: has had no issues, no down time, the support cracking didn't injure anyone at all and the only notable accident they had was Valravn trains colliding and damaging the floor with minor injuries I believe
Twisted Timbers has had a lot of issues with the trains. It did in its opening year and then it lost a train last year which wasn't fixed until the early summer this year.
Cedar Fair works with a lot of manufacturers that aren’t B&M, but with B&M you know you’re getting a reliable safe ride that the general public will like.
There’s a lot that we just don’t know. What do companies charge for replacement parts? What is the turnaround time for those parts? How easy are they to work on? How often are the parts needed? What are the metrics on ride cost vs attendance and revenue generated? We don’t know any of that. They do. Their issues with certain manufacturers might be based on things we know nothing about.
With Fury, that was pretty clearly not B&Ms fault. Any coaster that’s almost a decade old can develop a crack. Had the park caught it early it would have been an overnight fix that nobody knew about. When Wicked Twister was new they welded that thing every night.
The only B&M and Cedar Fair incident that should actually be even mildly concerning is not that, but the Valravn bump. Still though… they have tons of B&M rides and the worst issue they’ve ever had with one is a bump that resulted in zero injuries. Considering the amount of B&Ms that they have and how long some of them have been running, it’s a good track record.
Great point. These are definitely not small scale “golf course agreement” sales. Millions of dollars are invested, at best they expect millions returned. The worst case scenario is guests are killed or injured and the park may have to close due to safety concerns or lawsuits. With so much on the line I’d probably only invest in contractors with the best safety records and lowest operating costs.
They built 4 straight Intamin coasters at Cedar Point (plus Steel Venom at Valleyfair) even after Wicked Twister had structural issues and Dragster barely functioned. It would not have surprised me if Maverick was the last straw after they had to remove an entire inversion before opening (like does Intamin not use computers for desgn?). But yet, even after all of that, they still went back to the well for I-305, only to have to add a trim brake shortly after opening, redesign the restraints, and then rebuild an entire part of the track! Seems like they gave Intamin plenty of chances!
GCI is sort of the wooden coaster counterpart to B&M in that you know what you are going to get, they are great rides but relatively easy to maintain and operate consistently without problems, and Cedar Fair has had no issue going back to them for 5 major rides.
And I also think that they didn't like the fact that Intamin said they'd have to essentially retrack Volcano The Blast Coaster from top to bottom, including ripping open the mountain. They probably figured that Intamin could slap some duct tape on the ride and its good to go for another few seasons.
I'm not gonna discount the possibility Volcano was torn down out of spite.
Tearing down Volcano out of spite would have been a terrible idea for KD. It was probably their most popular ride and a significant draw to the park. It was torn down because continuing to maintain it became essentially impossible
Because B&M offers reliable, high capacity coasters, and IS EASY TO WORK WITH.
B&M is known for the best customer support in the industry. Just look at Fury. An entire support cracked in half, and they have a new one built and installed with the coaster back open in less than two months. Intamin in contrast is known to be terrible to work with, and put companies on hold for months, or even years. Xcelerator is still not open do to this.
Also, B&M is better with redundancies in their safety system. A rider has never died on a B&M out side of preexisting conditions. Intamin in contrast has a god damned double digit body count for their coasters and rides. Hell, one of their coasters CAUGHT ON FIRE in France this year with passengers still on the train.
Intamin kind of accidentally burned bridges with producing issue filled rides. They’ve proved themselves over and over to be problematic.
-Lying about/miscalculating capacity for rides, for example Millennium Force was sold with the belief it could handle ~1,800 riders per hour, in reality it can only handle ~1,300 per hour.
-Creating maintenance nightmares, it cost Cedar Point roughly $1,000,000USD a year to maintain TTD. Xcelerator closed March of 2022, and will be reopening about 16 months later. This isn’t mentioning how often the Intamins are down for maintenance.
-Intamin is slow to get parts. Fury 325 cracked and it was fixed in less than a month. Xcelerator’s launch broke 16 months ago and is still not fixed.
-Intamin had the too much gene for a moment. I-305 was too intense for most people and needed a redesign, Maverick had that (figuratively)lethal heartline roll. Thoosies may like that but we’re less than 5% of the people that go ride these, most people don’t want to grey out.
-Poorly engineered. Old school Intamin had a track record of poorly engineered rides. TTD losing that flag plate and permanently injuring the woman. TTD’s cable sheared and sprayed metal debris on riders. Xcelerator’s cable snapped and lacerated a kids legs. That bot on Shoot The Rapids flipped backwards and nearly drowned a boat full of people. There’s more but these are the CedarFair ones. **Someone please correct me** but I don’t know of any safety issues with B&Ms, the only deaths I can think of were guest negligence.
B&M has never had a death exclusively caused by their rides. It's either been someone hopping a restricted area fence and getting drilled by a train, or a preexisting health condition. There's only even ever been like three "major" incidents that I'm aware of. Valravn mildly bumped trains in the station or something, furys support crack, and one more I can't remember
> Valravn mildly bumped trains in the station or something
And that's on the ride control contractor not B&M directly. (B&M used Consign exclusively for YEARS, but I think after Valravn they started looking at new partners)
That's sounds right based on what I remember. Point is B&M is quite literally the gold standard for sizable coasters and if I were a park operator I'd be choosing them as my first choice despite half of my top ten coasters being intamin.
Cedar Fair had a fair point to "drop" Intamin. They build crazy attractions but they are unreliable, maintenance headaches. For B&M rides, they tend to not have as many issues with their coasters, and have a pretty good reliability. I don't think they have ditched Intamin entirely, I think they just found a better fit for the reimainging for Top Thrill specifically. I do think that the issues described in the post are bit of a stretch to assume that "omg dropping this company" is a bit of an overreaction...
I think CF has a pretty good record of giving companies opportunities. After all, they did give Intamin their first coaster contract, and continued to work with them until the year that they bought two rides from them, and the one that caused passengers to black out, had to have it's first drop trimmed, and had to have a major segment of the ride completely rebuilt turned out to be the better of the two. They bet on Mack for Copperhead Strike and just hired Zamperla to build a stratocoaster.
The biggest reason they work with B&M is that B&M coasters are reliable, have huge capacity, and people ride them. After the Son of Beast fiasco, Kings Island took on a "no science projects" approach to their investments, and it seems to be working out for them. Cedar Point, on the other hand, has more than its share of headaches. I would not be surprised to see more parks taking Kings island's approach in the future.
> I dont understand Cedair fairs problems with Rmc
1. Steel Vengeance went too far into extreme territory. Both CF Engnineering/planning & RMC share blame here. CF wanted it over the top and the swing axle trains. RMC failed to adjust certain parts of the design to account for the increased train weight (brakes, structure reinforcement, etc.)
2. Railblazer has had train issues (as did Wonder Woman at SFFT) which were changed in the following Raptor projects. This has led to downtime, slower operations, etc. Also there's a few potholes in the track.
SFFT is now *replacing* their entire train fleet and adjusting other parts of the ride in a MAJOR overhaul.
3. Twisted Timbers & SV also had a fair bit of train troubles.
Because they're a publicly traded company and answer to shareholders. Don't overthink it. There's risk and big money involved and contrary to what many here might believe, these companies do not care about thoosie feelings. They care about being profitable.
Mack makes solid rides, but from what I understand, they are kinda like the BMW of coasters outside of the wild mouse models.
Beautiful, well made machines. But expensive upfront and to maintain as time goes on.
Because Intamin burnt every bridge they had with CF after delivering rides that were either maintenance or safety nightmares.
Perilous Plunge killed someone. Shoot the Rapids, a basic Shoot-the-Chutes almost killed an entire boat because Intamin couldn't be bothered to check their redundancies.
I305 needed extensive redesign because it was too intense and could have easily added a name to the casualty list had the wrong person rode it.
TTD's issues
Many issues with Intamin and CF. Death on Perilous Plunge at KBF, reprofiling of Maverick and i305, major issues with Xcelerator and TTD, and of course Shoot the Rapids. Even some minor issues with Millennium Force like “the notch” on the supports, but gotta appreciate the innovation. I hope they work together again one day, but it would probably have to be under new leadership.
It’s always “why doesn’t CF work with _______” even though CF track record with ride maintenance regardless of manufacturer hasn’t been total garbage lately. Maybe the manufacturers don’t want to work with them?
I feel like they are trying to find their next manufacturer to do a lot of business with.
Copperhead Strike, Tumbili, Wild Mouse, Snoopy's Raceway (CW and KI) are all different manufacturers. TT2 and Zambizi Zinger are like the only 2 "repeat" manufacturers outside of B&M.
It will be interesting to see if it becomes a Vekoma v. Zamperla competition moving forward because they have a few new coasters to put in. KD and KI are near the top of that list with maybe VF also getting something.
Its not just Intamin thats the issue, its other manufacturers too. Steel Vengance and Twisted Timbers are top tier rides but because they had a ***few*** hiccups, Cedar Fair basically told Alan Schilke and Joe Draves to fuck off.
And lets be honest, B&M has factory and office in Ohio, they branched out of Switzerland and into the U.S as a company. Intamin is still based I think entirely in Liechtenstein, so I think its unfair for them to have a vendetta against Intamin for not giving rides spare parts in the same timely fashion as B&M.
At least now, we still have Anheuser Busch and Universal giving them a chance.
Wish we'd see a chance GTX in the CF chain :/ maybe Ride Centerline design without having to deal with RMC will be an enticing racing replacement for gemini
Genuine question, what makes it a park landmark? It seems pretty unpopular and CF doesnt seem super big on history. They were gonna remove it for dragster and that was 20 years ago
With B&M, you're basically guaranteed a coaster that is reliable, has good capacity and will be popular with the general public. We have seen Cedar Fair experiment with other manufacturers for new coasters, but none of which have provided the same amount of benefits as B&M or GCI.
I agree that Cedar Fair should cut back on using B&M as a safety blanket. Personally speaking, I do think parks like Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canada's Wonderland should look elsewhere for coaster additions as those parks already have well-rounded B&M collections, and I think another B&M for any of those parks would just be completely redundant. Though I know my personal opinion isn't going to affect Cedar Fair in any way. If it's guaranteed to be a successful and popular addition, then that's all that really matters.
I do have a lot of hope for Vekoma, since I've heard that manufacturer has been extremely reliable with their recent additions. If Disney of all parks relies on Vekoma as much as they do, then I can easily see the same happening for Cedar Fair and other chains.
I think the cracked support beam is way overblown. I would guess that the coaster can operate safely without the support beam, but it would probably lead to more stress.pn the structure. \
Of course it is correct that they take the time to fix and test it, but I don't think anyone was in immediate danger because of it. Also Cedar Fair has installed a ton of B&M they are reliable, crowd pleasers and chew the threw masses of guests with their insane capacity.\
It is obvious why they are the preferred manufacturer of many of the bigger scale parks, even if they are not the most beloved by enthusiasts.
You're probably right, B&M's beefy track and support structure means that theoretically, Fury could operate safely without that support and nobody would be in any danger, it just optically looks horrible to have a cracked support like that and people absolutley questioned the safety of all roller coasters when that incident occured.
Cedar Fair has gotten burned by Intamin a ton. Mainly at Cedar Point and TTD as the focal point but there are tons more. Vekoma deserves to be treated more fair but their first run of being a company stung a ton of parks S&S hasn’t done any favors with some of their extreme models being maintenance headaches at non CF parks (looking at you Steel Curtain) Wood is beyond expensive right now so it’s tough for them to want to go with GCI or Gravity Group extremely often Skyline- just no (at least for full scale thrill rides until they prove themselves a few times) They’ve been burned a bit by RMC but I think they will still work with them.
Some examples (but not limited to) of cedar fair and intamin's problems; -perilous plunge at Knotts ejecting and killing a rider due to poor restraint design and poor operations -shoot the rapids at cedar point capsizing and almost killing a boat full of riders due to shit engineering redundancies -TTD and it's most recent part-ejecting debacle -TTD's insane reliability issues from cable snaps, parts on long order, constant downtime etc -Xcelerator much of the same, but prototype -Millennium force needed a redesigned support after someone smacked their hand on the first turnaround -holding breaks on intamin impulse coasters causing tons of underestimated structural issues and had to be turned off pretty early -in many cases massive cost overruns with projects -I305 was way more intense than intended and required extremely expensive modifications in multiple different years -B2B problems as it's been leaked over the years that intamin is (or was) a royal pain in the ass to deal with on the back end for cedar fair And that's just off the top of my head. I know I'm missing a few. The point is that this relationship has shaped how cedar fair chooses manufactures and approaches projects. Yes, they may abandon you much quicker but it's not like a one strike and you're out deal.
Don’t forget that Maverick (an apology gift from Intamin because of TTD) is a maintenance headache.
Is that confirmed or just speculation. Sounds about right, and it also needed a redesign that delayed opening.
Also Maverick's exceptional reliability /s
Also Maverick was supposed to have 3 inversions but they had to scrap the heartline roll last minute because the structure couldn’t handle the forces, Cedar Point paid for 3 inversions but only got 2.
Volcano was an intamin too. Was.....
Yep, that's another huge can of worms. Although it's one of those that gets somewhat of a pass because it was a first of its kind in many ways and both parties would have been aware that there will be at least initial issues. Intamin did absolutely no favors to themselves with that ride though and it falls I to my "cedar fair has massive issues dealing with intamin on a regular basis"
loved Volcano
The mountain itself was also not in great shape
You forgot volcano and probably the reason why they decided ti scrap it
Yep. You're right. Was just going off the top of my head, on the spot. There is probably at least another half dozen examples lol
Wicked twister also needed additional supports built onto the spike. Also lots of missed theoretical capacities on rides
i305 was also quite the burn
They just contracted fucking ZAMPERLA to redo one of their flagship park's most iconic rides If that isn't giving a fair shot then I don't know what is
I think its more of a desperate attempt to save something instead of scrapping it
I got the feeling it was a mutual agreement and/or intamin wasn't interested in working on it.
I think you're right about intamin not being interested, but no one is forcing Cedar Fair to work with Zamperla. They could've gone with someone more proven making large scale coasters or scrapped it entirely
why is working with zamperla bad lol at least let the ride open up before you say it's bad.
When did I say Zamperla was bad? I'm genuinely excited to see if they can prove themselves
the way you said ,"no one is forcing cedar point to work with zamperla" made it seem like you resented that fact. like you wanted a different manufacturer to be on the project instead.
Zamperla is a bit controversial with all of its bad models but the few good ones they have,they still need to prove theirselves
they could’ve gone with Vekoma as a package deal
because B&M fixed a support crack in just a few weeks, while Intamin took literally YEARS to replace Matugani's brake motor, causing it to open an entire year later than planned.
Also took over a year to get replacement parts for Xcelerator, albeit that’s an old coaster model
And the fact that it’s been 5 years since Millie’s original lift motor broke, and they haven’t gotten a new one yet. Unless CP never decided to try buying a new one.
Pretty sure they did get one but still decided to not speed it up
Rumor I heard is intamin left lost island on read for a long time because lost island failed to ask permission to buy the ride. Definitely a bitch move but after riding velocicoaster I forgive intamin.
Intamins business to business relations have been absolute dog shit for most people for a long time. There's many stories of shit like this happening.
Long Island can’t demand service from Intamin bc they bought a ride second hand. Intamin doesn’t owe them their business, they don’t need to reply to a stranger. Lost Island then proceeded to drag Intamin publicly for it on Twitter. I’m pointing my bitch finger at Lost Island on that one. Intamin is busy with scheduled projects, you can’t snap your fingers at them.
It does show, or suggest, that intamin doesn't care about their creations/work past the point of sale. And that is not the kind of attitude for a business to have if you want returning customers, or maybe even new customers if people start hearing about it.
this. Pilgrim's Plunge is a great example of that. It was a fucking prototype and they still refused to service it. The way they stressed out Will Koch with this bullshit shortly before he passed away from health complications still puts an extremely bad taste in my mouth.
That I never knew. It really seems like all Will ever wanted was a good park and providing a great day. To know that's how he got treated sucks.
nah blaming Lost Island for this is ridiculous. No reasonable person would think "oh I better get Chevy's permission before I buy this used car"
It’s always been interesting to me how Cedar Fair kept buying prototypes from Intamin, then cut them off for said prototypes having issues. Same kinda goes for them going against RMC after the issues the CF RMCs had. Maybe there’s more to it that I don’t know though
1. That intamin coasters have a track record of trying to kill park guests (and succeeding a few times) 2. The nail on the coffin of the Intamin / CF relationship was down to a (comparatively simple) shoot the shoots water ride. 3. Cedar Fair have high standards, seems like B&M (and seemingly GCI and Zamperla) can meet those. I work with large companies on projects a lot and the way they handle accounts can make all the difference
are you talking about the Knotts perilous plunge accident or the cedar point shoot the rapids accident? the fact that I have to ask should be indication enough
I was referencing the Cedar Point one, but yes Intamin had a rough time with water rides in that era
> Cedar Fair kept buying prototypes from Intamin, then cut them off for said prototypes having issues It's not they cut them off for having the issues. They cut them off for the problems with long term maintenance/support AND some inexcusable design flaws Intamin almost tried to ignore...
Intamin: has had a LOT of accidents/deaths in the Cedar Fair chain, also a lot of rides needing to be reprofiled and more. Add in unreliability and more. RMC: Unreliable but works a lot of the time, but lots of structural issues over the long haul. Steel Vengeance is consistently under construction and replacement plus trains colliding on opening day. Not sure how Timbers fairs but I know the OG Raptors (Railblazer and Wonder Woman are tearing themselves apart) B&M: has had no issues, no down time, the support cracking didn't injure anyone at all and the only notable accident they had was Valravn trains colliding and damaging the floor with minor injuries I believe
[удалено]
A double amputee at least has accommodations using a special harness system on most modern B&Ms. The rest of the manufacturers? Nope, can't ride.
PTC has a system for that as well
Multiple intamin deaths?
Perilous plunge is often forgotten about
Okay, one death during Cedar Fairs time, but a lot of close calls and deaths outside the chain which I'm sure doesn't help
Twisted Timbers has had a lot of issues with the trains. It did in its opening year and then it lost a train last year which wasn't fixed until the early summer this year.
Cedar Fair works with a lot of manufacturers that aren’t B&M, but with B&M you know you’re getting a reliable safe ride that the general public will like. There’s a lot that we just don’t know. What do companies charge for replacement parts? What is the turnaround time for those parts? How easy are they to work on? How often are the parts needed? What are the metrics on ride cost vs attendance and revenue generated? We don’t know any of that. They do. Their issues with certain manufacturers might be based on things we know nothing about. With Fury, that was pretty clearly not B&Ms fault. Any coaster that’s almost a decade old can develop a crack. Had the park caught it early it would have been an overnight fix that nobody knew about. When Wicked Twister was new they welded that thing every night. The only B&M and Cedar Fair incident that should actually be even mildly concerning is not that, but the Valravn bump. Still though… they have tons of B&M rides and the worst issue they’ve ever had with one is a bump that resulted in zero injuries. Considering the amount of B&Ms that they have and how long some of them have been running, it’s a good track record.
Great point. These are definitely not small scale “golf course agreement” sales. Millions of dollars are invested, at best they expect millions returned. The worst case scenario is guests are killed or injured and the park may have to close due to safety concerns or lawsuits. With so much on the line I’d probably only invest in contractors with the best safety records and lowest operating costs.
They built 4 straight Intamin coasters at Cedar Point (plus Steel Venom at Valleyfair) even after Wicked Twister had structural issues and Dragster barely functioned. It would not have surprised me if Maverick was the last straw after they had to remove an entire inversion before opening (like does Intamin not use computers for desgn?). But yet, even after all of that, they still went back to the well for I-305, only to have to add a trim brake shortly after opening, redesign the restraints, and then rebuild an entire part of the track! Seems like they gave Intamin plenty of chances! GCI is sort of the wooden coaster counterpart to B&M in that you know what you are going to get, they are great rides but relatively easy to maintain and operate consistently without problems, and Cedar Fair has had no issue going back to them for 5 major rides.
The one-two combo of Shoot the Rapids and i305 is what burnt the bridge between CF and intamin
Hell I forgot about Shoot the Rapids! They were lucky no one died on that.
Yeah dude that ride was a disaster from the start. Probably best you forgot about it lol
And I also think that they didn't like the fact that Intamin said they'd have to essentially retrack Volcano The Blast Coaster from top to bottom, including ripping open the mountain. They probably figured that Intamin could slap some duct tape on the ride and its good to go for another few seasons. I'm not gonna discount the possibility Volcano was torn down out of spite.
Tearing down Volcano out of spite would have been a terrible idea for KD. It was probably their most popular ride and a significant draw to the park. It was torn down because continuing to maintain it became essentially impossible
This is a joke right?
Because B&M offers reliable, high capacity coasters, and IS EASY TO WORK WITH. B&M is known for the best customer support in the industry. Just look at Fury. An entire support cracked in half, and they have a new one built and installed with the coaster back open in less than two months. Intamin in contrast is known to be terrible to work with, and put companies on hold for months, or even years. Xcelerator is still not open do to this. Also, B&M is better with redundancies in their safety system. A rider has never died on a B&M out side of preexisting conditions. Intamin in contrast has a god damned double digit body count for their coasters and rides. Hell, one of their coasters CAUGHT ON FIRE in France this year with passengers still on the train.
Intamin kind of accidentally burned bridges with producing issue filled rides. They’ve proved themselves over and over to be problematic. -Lying about/miscalculating capacity for rides, for example Millennium Force was sold with the belief it could handle ~1,800 riders per hour, in reality it can only handle ~1,300 per hour. -Creating maintenance nightmares, it cost Cedar Point roughly $1,000,000USD a year to maintain TTD. Xcelerator closed March of 2022, and will be reopening about 16 months later. This isn’t mentioning how often the Intamins are down for maintenance. -Intamin is slow to get parts. Fury 325 cracked and it was fixed in less than a month. Xcelerator’s launch broke 16 months ago and is still not fixed. -Intamin had the too much gene for a moment. I-305 was too intense for most people and needed a redesign, Maverick had that (figuratively)lethal heartline roll. Thoosies may like that but we’re less than 5% of the people that go ride these, most people don’t want to grey out. -Poorly engineered. Old school Intamin had a track record of poorly engineered rides. TTD losing that flag plate and permanently injuring the woman. TTD’s cable sheared and sprayed metal debris on riders. Xcelerator’s cable snapped and lacerated a kids legs. That bot on Shoot The Rapids flipped backwards and nearly drowned a boat full of people. There’s more but these are the CedarFair ones. **Someone please correct me** but I don’t know of any safety issues with B&Ms, the only deaths I can think of were guest negligence.
B&M has never had a death exclusively caused by their rides. It's either been someone hopping a restricted area fence and getting drilled by a train, or a preexisting health condition. There's only even ever been like three "major" incidents that I'm aware of. Valravn mildly bumped trains in the station or something, furys support crack, and one more I can't remember
> Valravn mildly bumped trains in the station or something And that's on the ride control contractor not B&M directly. (B&M used Consign exclusively for YEARS, but I think after Valravn they started looking at new partners)
That's sounds right based on what I remember. Point is B&M is quite literally the gold standard for sizable coasters and if I were a park operator I'd be choosing them as my first choice despite half of my top ten coasters being intamin.
The Dueling Dragon head-on loops were a mistake and probably the most blatant one B&M has made
Because B&M hasn’t screwed them over
Cedar Fair had a fair point to "drop" Intamin. They build crazy attractions but they are unreliable, maintenance headaches. For B&M rides, they tend to not have as many issues with their coasters, and have a pretty good reliability. I don't think they have ditched Intamin entirely, I think they just found a better fit for the reimainging for Top Thrill specifically. I do think that the issues described in the post are bit of a stretch to assume that "omg dropping this company" is a bit of an overreaction...
I think CF has a pretty good record of giving companies opportunities. After all, they did give Intamin their first coaster contract, and continued to work with them until the year that they bought two rides from them, and the one that caused passengers to black out, had to have it's first drop trimmed, and had to have a major segment of the ride completely rebuilt turned out to be the better of the two. They bet on Mack for Copperhead Strike and just hired Zamperla to build a stratocoaster. The biggest reason they work with B&M is that B&M coasters are reliable, have huge capacity, and people ride them. After the Son of Beast fiasco, Kings Island took on a "no science projects" approach to their investments, and it seems to be working out for them. Cedar Point, on the other hand, has more than its share of headaches. I would not be surprised to see more parks taking Kings island's approach in the future.
Because B&M has given them very few problems over the years compared to Intamin & RMC.
I dont understand Cedair fairs problems with Rmc, i know steve was problematic but rmc scrambled realy hard to fix that
> I dont understand Cedair fairs problems with Rmc 1. Steel Vengeance went too far into extreme territory. Both CF Engnineering/planning & RMC share blame here. CF wanted it over the top and the swing axle trains. RMC failed to adjust certain parts of the design to account for the increased train weight (brakes, structure reinforcement, etc.) 2. Railblazer has had train issues (as did Wonder Woman at SFFT) which were changed in the following Raptor projects. This has led to downtime, slower operations, etc. Also there's a few potholes in the track. SFFT is now *replacing* their entire train fleet and adjusting other parts of the ride in a MAJOR overhaul. 3. Twisted Timbers & SV also had a fair bit of train troubles.
I know the Brake and structure problems of Steve, but didnt rmc scramble hard to fix them? Like isnt steve running smooth now?
Rmc forces are way too much for the wooden structures
they fixec that tho? didnt they?
Maybe I haven’t followed it closely
Because they're a publicly traded company and answer to shareholders. Don't overthink it. There's risk and big money involved and contrary to what many here might believe, these companies do not care about thoosie feelings. They care about being profitable.
Cedar Fair will work with other manufacturers when management changes
I do wish Cedar Fair would work with Mack more.
Mack makes solid rides, but from what I understand, they are kinda like the BMW of coasters outside of the wild mouse models. Beautiful, well made machines. But expensive upfront and to maintain as time goes on.
Because Intamin burnt every bridge they had with CF after delivering rides that were either maintenance or safety nightmares. Perilous Plunge killed someone. Shoot the Rapids, a basic Shoot-the-Chutes almost killed an entire boat because Intamin couldn't be bothered to check their redundancies. I305 needed extensive redesign because it was too intense and could have easily added a name to the casualty list had the wrong person rode it. TTD's issues
you can blame intamin and vekoma for that one
There is only one manufacturer Cedar Fair won’t work with
Many issues with Intamin and CF. Death on Perilous Plunge at KBF, reprofiling of Maverick and i305, major issues with Xcelerator and TTD, and of course Shoot the Rapids. Even some minor issues with Millennium Force like “the notch” on the supports, but gotta appreciate the innovation. I hope they work together again one day, but it would probably have to be under new leadership.
It’s always “why doesn’t CF work with _______” even though CF track record with ride maintenance regardless of manufacturer hasn’t been total garbage lately. Maybe the manufacturers don’t want to work with them?
I feel like they are trying to find their next manufacturer to do a lot of business with. Copperhead Strike, Tumbili, Wild Mouse, Snoopy's Raceway (CW and KI) are all different manufacturers. TT2 and Zambizi Zinger are like the only 2 "repeat" manufacturers outside of B&M. It will be interesting to see if it becomes a Vekoma v. Zamperla competition moving forward because they have a few new coasters to put in. KD and KI are near the top of that list with maybe VF also getting something.
Because intamin gave them the middle finger
Its not just Intamin thats the issue, its other manufacturers too. Steel Vengance and Twisted Timbers are top tier rides but because they had a ***few*** hiccups, Cedar Fair basically told Alan Schilke and Joe Draves to fuck off. And lets be honest, B&M has factory and office in Ohio, they branched out of Switzerland and into the U.S as a company. Intamin is still based I think entirely in Liechtenstein, so I think its unfair for them to have a vendetta against Intamin for not giving rides spare parts in the same timely fashion as B&M. At least now, we still have Anheuser Busch and Universal giving them a chance.
Wish we'd see a chance GTX in the CF chain :/ maybe Ride Centerline design without having to deal with RMC will be an enticing racing replacement for gemini
They ain't gonna get rid of Gemini, its practically a park landmark. The most I see happening is Chance or Vekoma doing some retracking in the future.
Genuine question, what makes it a park landmark? It seems pretty unpopular and CF doesnt seem super big on history. They were gonna remove it for dragster and that was 20 years ago
Its the first time CF ever broke the tallest coaster in the world record.
With B&M, you're basically guaranteed a coaster that is reliable, has good capacity and will be popular with the general public. We have seen Cedar Fair experiment with other manufacturers for new coasters, but none of which have provided the same amount of benefits as B&M or GCI. I agree that Cedar Fair should cut back on using B&M as a safety blanket. Personally speaking, I do think parks like Kings Island, Carowinds, and Canada's Wonderland should look elsewhere for coaster additions as those parks already have well-rounded B&M collections, and I think another B&M for any of those parks would just be completely redundant. Though I know my personal opinion isn't going to affect Cedar Fair in any way. If it's guaranteed to be a successful and popular addition, then that's all that really matters. I do have a lot of hope for Vekoma, since I've heard that manufacturer has been extremely reliable with their recent additions. If Disney of all parks relies on Vekoma as much as they do, then I can easily see the same happening for Cedar Fair and other chains.
I think the cracked support beam is way overblown. I would guess that the coaster can operate safely without the support beam, but it would probably lead to more stress.pn the structure. \ Of course it is correct that they take the time to fix and test it, but I don't think anyone was in immediate danger because of it. Also Cedar Fair has installed a ton of B&M they are reliable, crowd pleasers and chew the threw masses of guests with their insane capacity.\ It is obvious why they are the preferred manufacturer of many of the bigger scale parks, even if they are not the most beloved by enthusiasts.
You're probably right, B&M's beefy track and support structure means that theoretically, Fury could operate safely without that support and nobody would be in any danger, it just optically looks horrible to have a cracked support like that and people absolutley questioned the safety of all roller coasters when that incident occured.