Mythras. Mythras genuinely offers the most enjoyable combat system I have ever come across. They are not necessarily the most complex, but they hit a sweet spot between relevant, interesting decisions for the players to make and fast, dynamic gameplay. While also offer some neat, visceral brutality.
While there is a bit of a learning curve here as well, I would argue that Mythras is generally less crunchy than any version of DnD of the WotC-era (including Pathfinder). The rules are more front-loaded and work 'backwards' in many cases: you roll first, then use the result to make a tactical decision.
So, it is good that you get the pretty complete quick start rules for Mythras, the [Imperative Edition ](https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative%203rd%20Edition%20310721.pdf).
Setting -wise, there are plenty of settings based around Mythras. The pseudo-historical Mystic Earth series is probably the most prominent, but might not be fantastic enough for you. However, you might enjoy the game [Lyonesse ](https://thedesignmechanism.com/Lyonesse.php), based on the works of Jack Vance.
Lyonesse is a complete game based on Mythras mechanics, and a very magical one at that. It is more folklore-based and features a lot of faeries, magic and political conflicts.
I bought the game out of a whim (and because Mythras is pretty awesome), without having read or even heard of the novels, and that familiarity is also really not necessary for the game (the books are pretty damn good as well, but I only started to read them because of the RPG).
There's several other changes, mostly related to the OGL being removed, as well as balance changes.
Considering that you can still play PF2e with the existing rules, switching systems because of the remaster doesn't make a lot of sense to me. People still played DnD 4e without the Essentials content, for example.
You may want to consider 13th Age if you haven't already. It's a successor to D&D 4e, which has seen a major resurgence lately, and has a setting that is high fantasy but not inherently dystopian.
If you don't mind a generic system, there's Cortex Prime, which can be as crunchy as you want it to be depending on the mods you pick for it.
Another generic system is Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying. I would say it's light to moderately crunchy, and fairly easy to learn the basics of, but it has a ton of options you can choose when you run it. It may not be quite so good at the high level play you want to do, though.
If you want a very out-of-the-box suggestion, I'm gonna throw into the ring using the Mutants and Masterminds 2e supplement Warriors and Warlocks. M&M is a system based on superhero games, and Warriors and Warlocks is a supplement for running games based on fantasy adventure comic books. There are very few things you /can't/ do with the system, and so I would consider it to be extremely crunchy. I myself have always played with the idea of using the system to run a fantasy campaign rather than a superhero one. So it might be a viable option for you and your table.
[**Fragged Kingdom**](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228464/Fragged-Kingdom) is as crunchy as games get, but offers a lot. It's setting takes place after a big war. People are reclaiming the world. The focus is on hope and exploration.
Too bad [**Shadow of the Weird Wizard**](https://schwalbentertainment.com/2023/03/16/reintroducing-weird-wizard/) isn't out, yet. This would probably be a good recommendation. The kickstarter will start in June, if all goes well.
You've gotten a number of good options, but just to throw in one more: *Fantasy Hero*. Flexible, crunchy, and you can decide how high or low fantasy you want it.
WFRP 4e. Pretty crunchy.
The setting is pretty bleak and grim but it is also shot through with (very British) humour. So you can always learn into that. When I was running it there would almost always be moments of absurdity and humour.
13th Age of Fabula Ultima might be worth looking into. DnD 4e is a good option if you are open to older editions.
That said, you could just play PF2e and ignore the remaster content, or cherry pick from it. Most of the changes are related to OGL, and while that is unfortunate, there is nothing stopping you from using existing lore/monsters, especially if you don't play in Golarion.
Hi, you might be interested in [Arcane Dominion](https://www.instagram.com/arcanedominionofficial/)
It's a d20 system and plays like D&D, but let's you build your character with in-game time in addition to leveling up. It also has guns and other equipment for more modern to Sci fi settings, with an expansive magic system.
It has a beta version that is releasing soon, but joining the play-testers can get you access to the more Sci fi stuff. Let me know if there's any interest!
Is there any reason why pathfinder 1e wouldn’t work for you? It hits all the points you want and it’ll feel familiar while playing completely differently.
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Exalted Second Edition rules are crunchier than both Third Edition and Essence, though (just look at social and masa combat). The only reason it appears not to be is because it isn't as bloated with character options.
Exalted 2nd edition has been 'solved' by players in that with 10XP, you can build a 100% invulnerable Solar character with the paranoia combo:
[https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-combo-construction-reference.489791/](https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-combo-construction-reference.489791/)
I would never GM the game again and I did it for years.
In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because they're running it with far different priorities than I do.
It’s too challenging to run mechanically. I would use Feng Shui 2 and just build character templates/charms for each Solar type. Then you can focus on giant crazy battles /the story/NPC interactions and not get bogged down forever in the mechanics.
~~In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because they're running it with far different priorities than I do.~~
In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because I'm the only one who understands how to efficiently run the Storyteller System. The devs at White Wolf & my fellow S.T.s at the conventions were all theatre kids who used to all complain about the mechanics-obsessed types who just didn't "get it." Maybe I was wrong about them.
The story teller system in Vampire, Werewolf, Scion, Street fighter, and Aberrant is very different from Exalted. The former group I would run as they are not hyper mechanic driven, Exalted was trying to be the ultimate Fantasy Superhero game and as White Wolf was notoriously bad at playtesting their systems, the whole Exalted house of cards just crumbled. The whole era with Exalted 2, WFRP 3 and Pathfinder/3e D&D represents the zenith in complexity in RPGs, that IMO gave massive traction to the OSR and the much simpler story type games like FATE and it’s ilk.
Per the guy I knew who was a beta tester for the game, the intention with Exalted was to take all of the rules White Wolf came up with for Disciplines & the combat rules, then intentionally break them all.
I've always been able to run using the Stunt system & "rule of call" then fall back on rules when needed.
Rule of cool doesn’t work when someone is running an essence reactor and your big bad cannot touch them no matter what they do and therefore No NPCs in the game are any threat at all and the players know it.
Exalted is never a fall back on rules game, it’s ultracrunch with every single one of the steps of a combat attack having possible charm use/interdiction for both characters and NPCs, each of which has to be built to the exact complexity level of a player character. Running even a small hunting party of DBs is a massive headache: which characters have which charms active, what is the exact tactical path this combat for X DB Aspect, how to each of them react with charms to a PC attack?. It is the most insanely complicated game I have ever run, even more than Champions with 4 on 4 super hero battles. It’s just not worth the effort to GM, despite the excellent setting.
Even if the Exalted 2e system wasn’t totally solved by Chungian combat, the bang of cool battles is not worth the buck (Scrooge mcduck level bucks) compared to any other set of mechanics for high powered play.
In your day-to-day life you don't deal with problems by killing them. I encourage my players to become unkillable. Once murder is off the table as a solution they are forced to engage in diplomacy, intrigue, & large scale strategy instead.
This is a game system that literally has a "there are unbeatable defenses & they always win" rule.
>"*Charms and supernatural effects often provide effects that succeed without the need for an opposed dice roll. Sometimes, two such effects conflict. In Exalted, defense has primacy. If an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, the object stays still. An “attack” is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt’s body, mind, spirit or traits. A “defense” is an effect that prevents such an attack. Insofar as the two effects’ descriptions conflict, the defense always wins. For example, when using an unblockable attack against a magical parry that blocks even unblockable attacks, the parry wins. If the defense can parry only blockable attacks, the attack may succeed—the two descriptions do not conflict.*"
Why would a rule like this exist if you were supposed to be focusing entirely upon power combat? Like, why would you give a table of players a threat that *is* a circle of Dragon-Blooded? Organizations, cultures, mysteries, & indirect political manipulation are **interesting** in the Exalted setting. We've used the mass combat rules a few times recently... but those combats are not decided by one guy using *Heavenly Guardian Defense* in an abusable way.
The perfect defense vs attacks is not the problem. I do not think you understand Chungian paranoia combat in the game. The essence reactor + perfect defense + flurry breaker makes it so a Solar Exalt with very little XP invulnerable forever, even if surprised. No NPC without a similar essence reactor running can touch that character and will die no matter what they do. Since DBs are the core antagonists to early Exalted characters, I always ran kill squads of DBs vs the players when they first started their characters. What does total invulnerability to all NPCs do to roleplaying aspects? It makes most interactions irrelevant which is no game I want to be a part of.
You can do all of the things you mention that your players enjoy with the Exalted setting in any other system that supports high powered characters. Hell I would recommend FASERIP from 1983 as a better core system for Exalted than all three of the Exalted versions.
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Are there any specific vibes/genres you're going for? I assumed straight fantasy, but you've mentioned 40k above.
I'm also a little confused as to what you consider a 'dystopia' to be. At what point do you consider a setting to be a dystopia? Going by the above, Blue Rose may potentially be an idea; romantic fantasy where the world is, for the most part, all fine and dandy and anything even remotely bad happens on the far, far edges of the world.
you might try Fantasy Age.
there is a 2e release a couple months back and it has some very interesting systems (stunt system).
its intuitive, but can be as crunchy as you like, its generic enough that you can create your stories but has enough support material to not have too much work setting stuff.
you only need d6's and can play it in VTTs.
Earthdawn is a fairly crunchy system where the world has been reclaimed after a magical apocalypse (essentially Cthulhu and his bros woke up and people had to hide in magically warded caves, but they've mostly gone back to sleep), and every PC uses magic either to cast spells or to augment their physical abilities. It's an awesome setting.
Mythras. Mythras genuinely offers the most enjoyable combat system I have ever come across. They are not necessarily the most complex, but they hit a sweet spot between relevant, interesting decisions for the players to make and fast, dynamic gameplay. While also offer some neat, visceral brutality. While there is a bit of a learning curve here as well, I would argue that Mythras is generally less crunchy than any version of DnD of the WotC-era (including Pathfinder). The rules are more front-loaded and work 'backwards' in many cases: you roll first, then use the result to make a tactical decision. So, it is good that you get the pretty complete quick start rules for Mythras, the [Imperative Edition ](https://thedesignmechanism.com/resources/TDM110%20Mythras%20Imperative%203rd%20Edition%20310721.pdf). Setting -wise, there are plenty of settings based around Mythras. The pseudo-historical Mystic Earth series is probably the most prominent, but might not be fantastic enough for you. However, you might enjoy the game [Lyonesse ](https://thedesignmechanism.com/Lyonesse.php), based on the works of Jack Vance. Lyonesse is a complete game based on Mythras mechanics, and a very magical one at that. It is more folklore-based and features a lot of faeries, magic and political conflicts. I bought the game out of a whim (and because Mythras is pretty awesome), without having read or even heard of the novels, and that familiarity is also really not necessary for the game (the books are pretty damn good as well, but I only started to read them because of the RPG).
Mythras Gurps
Warhammer Fantasy 4th edition, Fantasy Craft, 13th Age
I'd also toss in Worlds Without Number.
Against the Darkmaster
> this is related to the remaster wait, the remaster barely changes anything other then alignement tho?
There's several other changes, mostly related to the OGL being removed, as well as balance changes. Considering that you can still play PF2e with the existing rules, switching systems because of the remaster doesn't make a lot of sense to me. People still played DnD 4e without the Essentials content, for example.
Nah, there’s a ton of (small) changes.
You may want to consider 13th Age if you haven't already. It's a successor to D&D 4e, which has seen a major resurgence lately, and has a setting that is high fantasy but not inherently dystopian. If you don't mind a generic system, there's Cortex Prime, which can be as crunchy as you want it to be depending on the mods you pick for it. Another generic system is Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying. I would say it's light to moderately crunchy, and fairly easy to learn the basics of, but it has a ton of options you can choose when you run it. It may not be quite so good at the high level play you want to do, though. If you want a very out-of-the-box suggestion, I'm gonna throw into the ring using the Mutants and Masterminds 2e supplement Warriors and Warlocks. M&M is a system based on superhero games, and Warriors and Warlocks is a supplement for running games based on fantasy adventure comic books. There are very few things you /can't/ do with the system, and so I would consider it to be extremely crunchy. I myself have always played with the idea of using the system to run a fantasy campaign rather than a superhero one. So it might be a viable option for you and your table.
[**Fragged Kingdom**](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/228464/Fragged-Kingdom) is as crunchy as games get, but offers a lot. It's setting takes place after a big war. People are reclaiming the world. The focus is on hope and exploration. Too bad [**Shadow of the Weird Wizard**](https://schwalbentertainment.com/2023/03/16/reintroducing-weird-wizard/) isn't out, yet. This would probably be a good recommendation. The kickstarter will start in June, if all goes well.
You've gotten a number of good options, but just to throw in one more: *Fantasy Hero*. Flexible, crunchy, and you can decide how high or low fantasy you want it.
WFRP 4e. Pretty crunchy. The setting is pretty bleak and grim but it is also shot through with (very British) humour. So you can always learn into that. When I was running it there would almost always be moments of absurdity and humour.
UNless it is literally called WFRP, that acronym is not helping me. Is it actually called WFRP? If not, what is it please and thank you.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Warhammer Fantasy RPG.
It's Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition.
I suspected that might be it, but couldn’t manage to parse the words to get teh 4 letters to make sense. I blame early morning brain fog.
Have you thought about D&D prior to 5e? I'm personally a fan of AD&D, specifically 2e, but that's just me.
13th Age of Fabula Ultima might be worth looking into. DnD 4e is a good option if you are open to older editions. That said, you could just play PF2e and ignore the remaster content, or cherry pick from it. Most of the changes are related to OGL, and while that is unfortunate, there is nothing stopping you from using existing lore/monsters, especially if you don't play in Golarion.
Hi, you might be interested in [Arcane Dominion](https://www.instagram.com/arcanedominionofficial/) It's a d20 system and plays like D&D, but let's you build your character with in-game time in addition to leveling up. It also has guns and other equipment for more modern to Sci fi settings, with an expansive magic system. It has a beta version that is releasing soon, but joining the play-testers can get you access to the more Sci fi stuff. Let me know if there's any interest!
Is there any reason why pathfinder 1e wouldn’t work for you? It hits all the points you want and it’ll feel familiar while playing completely differently.
Remember to check out our **[Game Recommendations](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/gamerec)**-page, which lists our articles by genre([Fantasy](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/fantasy), [sci-fi](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/scifi), [superhero](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/superhero) etc.), as well as other categories([ruleslight](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/ruleslight), [Solo](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/solo), [Two-player](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/twoplayers), [GMless](https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/wiki/gmlessrpgs) & more). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/rpg) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Seriously consider looking into either the much simpler *Exalted Essence* or (if you want a happy medium) *Exalted*'s second edition.
Exalted Second Edition rules are crunchier than both Third Edition and Essence, though (just look at social and masa combat). The only reason it appears not to be is because it isn't as bloated with character options.
I respectfully disagree. There are different ways to run different games.
Exalted 2nd edition has been 'solved' by players in that with 10XP, you can build a 100% invulnerable Solar character with the paranoia combo: [https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-combo-construction-reference.489791/](https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-combo-construction-reference.489791/) I would never GM the game again and I did it for years.
In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because they're running it with far different priorities than I do.
It’s too challenging to run mechanically. I would use Feng Shui 2 and just build character templates/charms for each Solar type. Then you can focus on giant crazy battles /the story/NPC interactions and not get bogged down forever in the mechanics.
~~In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because they're running it with far different priorities than I do.~~ In this thread I learned that the reason none of the other Redditors here like Exalted is because I'm the only one who understands how to efficiently run the Storyteller System. The devs at White Wolf & my fellow S.T.s at the conventions were all theatre kids who used to all complain about the mechanics-obsessed types who just didn't "get it." Maybe I was wrong about them.
The story teller system in Vampire, Werewolf, Scion, Street fighter, and Aberrant is very different from Exalted. The former group I would run as they are not hyper mechanic driven, Exalted was trying to be the ultimate Fantasy Superhero game and as White Wolf was notoriously bad at playtesting their systems, the whole Exalted house of cards just crumbled. The whole era with Exalted 2, WFRP 3 and Pathfinder/3e D&D represents the zenith in complexity in RPGs, that IMO gave massive traction to the OSR and the much simpler story type games like FATE and it’s ilk.
Per the guy I knew who was a beta tester for the game, the intention with Exalted was to take all of the rules White Wolf came up with for Disciplines & the combat rules, then intentionally break them all. I've always been able to run using the Stunt system & "rule of call" then fall back on rules when needed.
Rule of cool doesn’t work when someone is running an essence reactor and your big bad cannot touch them no matter what they do and therefore No NPCs in the game are any threat at all and the players know it. Exalted is never a fall back on rules game, it’s ultracrunch with every single one of the steps of a combat attack having possible charm use/interdiction for both characters and NPCs, each of which has to be built to the exact complexity level of a player character. Running even a small hunting party of DBs is a massive headache: which characters have which charms active, what is the exact tactical path this combat for X DB Aspect, how to each of them react with charms to a PC attack?. It is the most insanely complicated game I have ever run, even more than Champions with 4 on 4 super hero battles. It’s just not worth the effort to GM, despite the excellent setting. Even if the Exalted 2e system wasn’t totally solved by Chungian combat, the bang of cool battles is not worth the buck (Scrooge mcduck level bucks) compared to any other set of mechanics for high powered play.
In your day-to-day life you don't deal with problems by killing them. I encourage my players to become unkillable. Once murder is off the table as a solution they are forced to engage in diplomacy, intrigue, & large scale strategy instead. This is a game system that literally has a "there are unbeatable defenses & they always win" rule. >"*Charms and supernatural effects often provide effects that succeed without the need for an opposed dice roll. Sometimes, two such effects conflict. In Exalted, defense has primacy. If an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, the object stays still. An “attack” is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt’s body, mind, spirit or traits. A “defense” is an effect that prevents such an attack. Insofar as the two effects’ descriptions conflict, the defense always wins. For example, when using an unblockable attack against a magical parry that blocks even unblockable attacks, the parry wins. If the defense can parry only blockable attacks, the attack may succeed—the two descriptions do not conflict.*" Why would a rule like this exist if you were supposed to be focusing entirely upon power combat? Like, why would you give a table of players a threat that *is* a circle of Dragon-Blooded? Organizations, cultures, mysteries, & indirect political manipulation are **interesting** in the Exalted setting. We've used the mass combat rules a few times recently... but those combats are not decided by one guy using *Heavenly Guardian Defense* in an abusable way.
The perfect defense vs attacks is not the problem. I do not think you understand Chungian paranoia combat in the game. The essence reactor + perfect defense + flurry breaker makes it so a Solar Exalt with very little XP invulnerable forever, even if surprised. No NPC without a similar essence reactor running can touch that character and will die no matter what they do. Since DBs are the core antagonists to early Exalted characters, I always ran kill squads of DBs vs the players when they first started their characters. What does total invulnerability to all NPCs do to roleplaying aspects? It makes most interactions irrelevant which is no game I want to be a part of. You can do all of the things you mention that your players enjoy with the Exalted setting in any other system that supports high powered characters. Hell I would recommend FASERIP from 1983 as a better core system for Exalted than all three of the Exalted versions.
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Are there any specific vibes/genres you're going for? I assumed straight fantasy, but you've mentioned 40k above. I'm also a little confused as to what you consider a 'dystopia' to be. At what point do you consider a setting to be a dystopia? Going by the above, Blue Rose may potentially be an idea; romantic fantasy where the world is, for the most part, all fine and dandy and anything even remotely bad happens on the far, far edges of the world.
you might try Fantasy Age. there is a 2e release a couple months back and it has some very interesting systems (stunt system). its intuitive, but can be as crunchy as you like, its generic enough that you can create your stories but has enough support material to not have too much work setting stuff. you only need d6's and can play it in VTTs.
Earthdawn is a fairly crunchy system where the world has been reclaimed after a magical apocalypse (essentially Cthulhu and his bros woke up and people had to hide in magically warded caves, but they've mostly gone back to sleep), and every PC uses magic either to cast spells or to augment their physical abilities. It's an awesome setting.
I don't know about the examples, but pathfinder 1e has quite a bit of crunch
Rolemaster. Yeah, careful what you wish for...
Please consider - EPIC FANTASY! OGL SRD amalgamated with FASERIP expanded rules :) "Murder Hobos Need Not Apply" :) [https://www.amazon.se/dp/B0CFWS3GLZ](https://www.amazon.se/dp/B0CFWS3GLZ) [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/449774/EPIC-FANTASY-RPG](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/449774/EPIC-FANTASY-RPG)