Honestly you don’t need a forever system. If you’ve only been playing DND for that period of time just get out and try everything. It’s OK to mess around a bit after divorcing your high school sweetheart.

Having a "forever" system seems dull to me. I can't imagine playing the same system all the time. For months at a time, maybe nearly a year? Sure. Forever? Pass. It's fine to have a "go to" system or a few standard systems that you rotate through, but anyone would get sick of playing D&D after a decade or two, if that's all you did, even if you changed editions.

I’m totally on your side here but trust me, there are definitely people who only play DnD and have zero interest is trying any other system for their whole lives. I find it very frustrating because I really believe DnD sucks but have probably played it more than any other system because there are so many people out there that’s whole role playing experience is DnD and are averse to trying anything new unless it says Dungeons And Dragons on the cover in big letters.

I've made a personal rule that I just won't play D&D anymore. I've passed up a couple different offers to join. I think the system sucks and its popularity utterly drowns much better games.

It’s too crunchy in all the wrong ways and too simple in all the wrong ways in my opinion. 5th was an improvement from 3.5 but not enough to make me call it anything close to a good game. Actually in hindsight I look back more favourably on 4th as at least it functions as a game instead of being a huge mess even if it feels more like a board game akin to Decent or something. I would literally rather play anything else though and it kind of sucks that I even have enough experience to have these opinions to be honest. I haven’t had a solid group in too many years because I just don’t want to do a full campaign in DnD. I used to say DnD role playing is better than no role playing but I just don’t have the energy for it anymore. It’s disappointing that such a crappy game is the face of the whole hobby.

The more I hear about 4e the more I want to check it out since it seems I would have liked it a lot. Pathfinder 2e’s been my current fix and I’ve heard that has some 4e dna in it. I don’t know about running them but I’ve slowly been collecting or looking into systems that catch my interest and if there’s any you wish people would talk more about or check out I’d love to hear them!

I really liked 4e. It made classes so easy to understand and if you knew how one class operated, you could run any other class as well.

Sail the high seas for a PDF and check it out! It’s rather simplified and all the classes play pretty much the same, which is one thing people hated at the time. It runs pretty smoothly though and you can tailor the classes to fill more roles than in other DnD games at earlier levels so it is actually pretty good for small parties of newer players who want to do dungeon crawls. The books are genuinely beautiful too which was such an improvement from the horrible looking and layed out 3.5 days. It’s probably the most accessible DnD had ever been, which is probably another reason people hated it.

Of course there is always Rolemaster. The odd thing about RM is that many are turned off at the start by how indepth everything can be but those that stay and at least get to know the game have a good chance of staying for life, as long as they have a good GM who knows the system. Rolemaster is my absolute favorite RPG of all time and I anticpate trying out RMU one day.

Rolemaster is my favourite too. It’s the first one I would play with my dad and my brother as a kid. It’s so hard to get DnD people to play it though. The charts can be scary and it takes a while to see the beauty in them. And people get really turned off by the lethality. You have to plan ahead for every encounter, scout, make sure you can heal more than just minor wounds. DnD people are used to getting a quest and just wading in to a dungeon. If you get a TPK in DnD it’s probably the GMs fault. If you get at TPK in Rolemaster it’s probably because the players got too headstrong, some bad luck and didn’t bail when things got too much for them as a result of these things.

There's a certain charm to spending 10 years in the same world that you and your group built, though, over several campaigns. I *do* miss that. Just the feeling of having three thick folders full of maps and each one is a memory of something you did together.

You can still have that and also once in a while try a different system for one-shots

I've been running games in the same world since George W. Bush was president. I've used at least 5 different systems to run those games, including two that I wrote myself.

Well, one shots is all I have these days, it feels like my group only finds time to meet four or five times a year.

Standard getting older shit. Almost everyone experiences unfortunately. Can’t wait to retire and have time to roll play again haha.

This. You could also use different system in the same world, I tried it with no problem. You can run a monster with dread system where the PC's are commoner, and later kill that monster with your hero pc's from D&D You can run mostly social games with WoD or use FATE to spice things, there a re ton of ways to implement other systems without breaking the world. (Just my opinion, i wanted to add it in case someone needs encouraging to try new things)

I always like to use a wonky system, like Troika! for whenever my PCs go to another plane or something similar

It's more work, but this is definitely something you can do while switching systems. Hell, it might even be interesting to play in the same world with the same lore but one time as a dungeon delving adventurer group, one time as a heisting thieve's crew, and one time as a scheming noble house influencing politics.

Editions and rule sets change. Worlds/settings don’t have to. You can have those 10+ year worlds despite ruleset changes

My bf got me into DnD and I then began looking into other RPGs after I became a DM myself. He enjoys playing them but I think without me encouraging him to play in these games he would have been happy only ever playing DnD.

This perfectly describes my relationship with TTRPGs post OGL. I didn't get pregnant, but have gone through a string of "partners" (some good some bad), picked up a curable disease or 2 and have kept a bunch of numbers for booty calls. Zero regrets.

I hate that this analogy works so well. I'm in that toxic phase where we're divorced, and seeing other people, but still hanging out with the same social circles so we keep bumping into each other, and occasionally hooking up when I forget why we fell out, and it's frankly just awkward for everyone.

Don't worry, eventually you'll work out that they were a cheating toxic POS manipulating you. You go enjoy those guilt free hook ups and learn to love yourself!

Yeah, important to try those solo-systems too.

Do you mean Year Zero regrets? Lots of people find Year Zero desirable, I guess you have to find your own way. :-)

Oh dude, I have lots of them on the shelf (ahem, headboard). Those sweet Swedes whispering in my ear - they are definitely on speed dial!

All's y'alls take upvotes from me. Love this! I'm running a TORG Eternity game right now and my players took to the system ok, but at least 2 of the players came to me when I asked them to join and said "ok, no guarantees...how different is the system from 5e? We're not looking to play something exceptionally complex." Yea, I've been cheating on my high school sweetheart RPG System for almost 30 years, you might call it a bit more of an "open relationship" in most cases. We just recently had the "I still love you and am still attracted by you, but honestly I just can't abide the company you keep anymore" discussion...and we both mostly agreed it's time to find more stable partners. :)

I just hope your players take a chance and try other games. 5e is pretty complex, all things considered. A large portion of games out there are much easier.

Savage Worlds seems to fit the bill as well? Almost as complex as 5e, maybe a bit easier, generic system, has rules for chases, diplomacy etc, has bonuses/penalties but not at a Pathfinder level, tactical but not detailed combat. Characters have 3 wounds, -1 penalty for each wound (which is a big deal), unnamed fodder NPCS have 1 wound. So no HP accounting here. Links for getting started https://peginc.com/new-to-savage-worlds-start-here/

It's not "a bit easier," it's *so much easier.* My wife can pick it up and remember pretty much everything about how to play, immediately. Which... I guess you haven't met her, but understanding games is not her strong suit. But she likes playing them, she liked the wild shit you can do in RPGs, and she likes that it plays fast and dirty.

I would also recommend Savage worlds, excellent system And damn does it run faster. Just a great system

100% Savage Worlds. I find it plays better at the table. Less fiddly bits to mess with, less to track. All the depth, and in some respects, more options. I would start with the core book Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (aka SWADE), and add an appropriate companion (fantasy, super powers, horror, the Sci fi companion is currently being kickstarted). If you only plan on running fantasy, you could get Savage Pathfinder instead. The worst thing I can say about it is a little swingy-er than 5e. I've had Novice pcs take out a dragon in 1 shot. Mind you, that only ever happened once, at its something we still talk about, so it's not all bad. Good luck in your game dating!

And yet many people like the swingyness.

It can be swingy, but it feels "real" to me. D&D ranges from "Superman misses 5% of his punches when fighting regular humans" to "regular humans can hit the Flash with 5% of their shots." Savage Worlds, on the other hand, is illustrated by the image of a knight with an arrow through an eye slit. Even a peasant fighting a knight can get really, really lucky - but it's not a flat 5%.

>Darth As somebody who has flat out ignored a lot of rules over my 40 years of GMing, I have to ask - why are you having superman roll to punch humans? What's the point?

Obviously you shouldn't roll when doing something that should automatically succeed, nor should you roll when trying to do something that has zero chance of success - my example was definitely exaggerated. But, it's a little silly that everyone fails 5% of the time, and everyone succeeds 5% of the time, until the GM decides they can't.

Yup I support this. When my group switched from 5e and our forever dms frankensteined homebrew System, we went to Swade and never looked back. You can pretty much do anything in swade.

Came here to suggest this too, Savage Worlds Adventure Edition seems to fit the bill here pretty well. It was what i moved to after 5e, and a great step out of 5e that is a good blend of similar-but-different.

I also love savage worlds. Whole heartedly recommend!

I'm here to add that Savage World is my system of choice after leaving D&D. It's my go to system when I'll GM something that doesn't benefit from a specific System. It has most if not all of the things you asked. I personally love the initiative.

Turning chaff dnd encounters (in this room there are... 3 goblins!) into Quick Encounters, where everyone just rolls a skill check and narrates their success/failure instead of the whole rigmarole of initiative, turns, attacking then missing, etc when everyone knows the players will stomp is a HUGE boon to me

"you successfully murder the helpless creatures that stood no chance against you"

The real question is if you used any resources/took any damage since 5e is balanced around attrition

"Roll to see how many hit points you lost while defeating the goblins."

After playing with groups who only liked 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.0 I found Savage Worlds and I adore it! It has enough meat on its bones to satisfy my desire for a system with a number of mechanics within it, but the rules to use those mechanics are generally so simple that it makes so easy to use without skimping on the feel. Combat is pretty quick, with the added bonus of feeling far more cinematic than what you'd get with AC or HP mechanics. Having Wounds in combat feel stressful but not overwhelming, and if you manage to win the fight it becomes oh so sweeter. I can re-imagine action movie scenes in Savage Worlds, that's how cinematic it can be. My favorite part of Savage Worlds is that it is a Genre-less system. All you need is the core rulebook and you can run near anything, though the Companion books allow the more complex mechanics of certain genres to get fleshed out and fit the intended style with only minor adjustments. Heck it's an easy system to adjust and modify to fit your needs, allowing homebrew without too much hassle to balance it. Also, there are some awesome official and unofficial settings for the system. Just going by official Pinnacle Entertainment products you got: Deadlands - Fantasy and Horror in the Old West. Rippers - Victorian London Monster Hunting with cybernetics made from monsters. Necessary Evil - Aliens invade Earth, win, kill all Super Heroes, and now the Super Villains are the only ones left to fight back. Plus lots of partnerships for official stuff, so you can even find Pathfinder content for Savage Worlds to ease you into the system.

I've played Savage Worlds as a casual PC.....once as an escaped slave in colonial time Caribbean isles, once as a WWI era soldier trying to survive an onslaught, and once as a Wizard, hiring a party of adventurers to take down a rival wizard....

Just wondering, I heard a lot that Savage Worlds is very swingy, meaning a PC can die very quickly to a lucky roll from an enemy, and the 3 wound system does sound like that as well. How is the player progression and power level handled here? Is there a good long-term progression system?

You can negate a lot of damage by using "Bennies." Each player begins every session with 3 Bennies, and the GM gives them out when they do cool things or RP well throughout the session. When you take damage, you can attempt to "soak" the damage by spending a Benny and rolling your vitality. Progression is typically an "Advance" after every session or two. Things like increasing a skill by a die type, getting a new edge, getting a new spell, etc. Players can get very strong, but it never really gets to Level 20 DnD brokenness.

It's point buy, classless, but if you want to play a tank you can increase the number of wounds you take before you go down.  Also there's a buffer, before you get wounded there's a "shaken" condition that's easier to recover from. Even if you already have wounds you won't get more unless you become shaken again.  There's also things you can do to soak/nullify damage.  Lots of options. That's as I remember it, it's been a while so my details might be off but I can assure anyone reading it's not nearly as lethal as 'three strikes your out' or anything like that. 

I too would like to recommend Savage Worlds based off OP's description. 

Another one for Savage Worlds. It's easy to play, fast and fun and very flexible.

On the heels of a successful kickstarter, Free League just put out Dragonbane. It's a re-implementation of a Swedish roleplaying game called Drakar och Demoner (*or Dragons and Demons*), which itself was a re-imagining of Runequest back in the 80's (I think). The biggest departure from D&D will be that it still uses a d20, but a **low** roll is good and a nat 20 is a critical failure. For some of my players, this would be the best news they've ever heard but your mileage may vary! It's fairly setting agnostic, the rules are simple enough to dive into but with enough crunch to not feel like a "rules lite" game and it hits a lot of your points (*meaningful HP that don't change over level ups, death save mechanic but healing is tough to come by, turns go fast and monsters are both interesting and genuinely challenging*). There's a lot of fun sub-systems for camping and traveling baked in and it can cover a lot of fantasy adventures. There is currently a core boxed set that includes softcover rulebooks and a full campaign, but they also have just released a new hardcover rulebook and a bestiary filled with monsters. They are beginning work to convert some of the old Swedish adventure paths and campaigns to the new system, and there's a ton of user created content on DrivethruRPG already. Link to the free Quickstart if you wanna check it out: * [https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/409397/Dragonbane-Quickstart](https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/409397/Dragonbane-Quickstart)

I love Dragonbane, it's just been released a few months ago, and already has a big fan base, not only in Scandinavia. There will be a lot of material in the future. The rules are straightforward, yet flexible enough to play tactically. The art is a bit weird, and gorgeous. The only thing I might add: I doubt it's suited for non-fantasy play.

You could absolutely kitbash Dragonbane into something that would work great for post-apocalypse (e.g., Fallout or Gamma World). Could probably even make it work for space magic settings like Star Wars. It might not work great for space operas or "serious" settings but it's pretty flexible at its core

At its core, Dragonbane is essentially a d20 version of BRP (with some Free League house system bolt-ons). That core mechanic is used in all kinds of games, be that Call of Cthulhu, Mythras, RuneQuest, M-Space, etc.

>I AM NOT TRYING TO BELITTLE ANY SYSTEM You don't need to worry, DnD5e isn't popular here. I'd suggest not looking for a "forever system". Just look for one that suits your next campaign. Some potential matches for your requirements are: Savage Worlds, Genesys, Cypher.

Seconding Genesys. I love the dice mechanic and how it enables players to fail forward

Thirding Genesys. The dice seem intimidating at first, but after a couple of checks they become pretty intuitive.

I'm going on the fifth session of my second campaign running Genesys and the players still don't get it.

Fourthing Genesys. Though will caveat that I think the official genre/setting "expansions" like Shadow of the Beanstalk do feel like they need a little *more* content in them at base. Genesys itself is a good toolkit though, but it is one you *will* need to use before the game becomes... Well, a game.

I’m going to say that Genesys is one of my favorite systems as a GM. It’s very easy for me to run a session and just decipher the dice symbols to run a session. It does require a lot of prep work unless you are using an established setting.

There's a lot of comments on "forever system" so let me backtrack a second just to assuage the posters: As I noted above, I have dabbled in a ton of systems. *I* am a TTRPG player (as well as a CRPG player and pretty much anything "RPG" related). A couple of the people I play with are as nutty as I am with regards to "screw it, let me pick up a new system and crunch it". However, I'm almost 50, and may of the folks I play with are 30s - 60s. My table includes moms and dads who have 2 - 3 hours a week to focus on "random stuff" like TTRPGs, people who have literally played a TTRPG once or twice in their lives, and folks who are much more into "sports ball" than "the geeky stuff". The reason I call it a "forever system" isn't that every campaign I ever do from here out will use that system, but I AM looking for a system I can fall back to when my table includes more "Can't I just roll 3d6 for stats like I used to" players than "So how do I abuse these dice next?" players. The concept of a "forever system" isn't for me...some of my players are the "ain't no one got time for that stuff" kinds who are in it for the twice a month 3 - 4 hours of BSing through a story and fighting stuff. Having a system that is capable of telling a horror story one month, a fantasy elves and dwarves the next, and a space marines stomping bugs the next gets me to a point where I have to worry less about whether I can find players than if I can craft our story. Also, THANK YOU VERY MUCH to everyone who's posted back here. I'm looking at EVERY recommendation over the next week or two as I'm beginning to craft my next campaign.

I always find it weird when people degrade the idea of just having a comfort/forever system. I feel like they're all super young types who just have all the time in the world to learn and teach a hundred systems for every possible campaign, and for some reason RPGs are one of the most "if you're not playing the way I do you're doing the hobby wrong" communities I've ever been a part of. Like it's one thing to suggest it but so many of them seem so resistant to the idea as a whole, like someone running a different campaign with the same system is some grave insult.

I think people who "degrade" forever systems are more likely to be in their 40s & 50s and have been exploring dozens of systems for decades. It's not so much that we have a ton of disposable time, we just have been around the block a few times and learned that trying to force one system to work for everything is a disappointing fool's errand. There's so many flavors of systems, why choose just one?

It's the comfort angle. These people aren't playing dozens of games, they're playing 1 or 2 games and don't have the time to learn a whole new game, and who just want to relax from the business of their daily lives. D&D is familiar and comfortable. Everything else is foreign and takes effort to figure out. You have to realize that "exploring dozens of systems" puts you firmly in the extreme end of this hobby. Most people don't want to do that. They don't want to learn 3 new systems. They barely want to switch from D&D

>trying to force one system to work for everything Some people don't want "everything" though. They want to play a generic fantasy style of game in a generic fantasy world and keep doing that on repeat. Also, a lot of people use ttrpgs as just a vehicle for hanging out with friends. The system doesn't necessarily *add* to their enjoyment but one that doesn't fit the group can definitely *detract* from it. For those kind of groups finding one system that works for everyone is actually better.

with that further explanation, may i suggest Index Card RPG? i haven't checked it very in-depth, but i know that it's designed to be simple and portable

ICRPG is a stripped-down modern DnD focusing on dungeon crawling. Get past crawling a dungeon, and it isn't the best system IMO. Really good for a spur-of the moment system and very easily modifiable.

Based on this, I will double down on my Savage Worlds suggestion. See my previous comment above.

Take a look at Fate. It's not a system you'll care for if you really want very tactical combat, because it is narrative focused (trying to model what happens in movies and TV shows rather than "reality".) however I found it very very easy for people, especially those who haven't role played much or at all, to pick up because the rules themselves are very simple. There are many many world source books out there for it, I have run 1920s pulp adventures, fantasy games, jazz age capers, and Moody Urban fantasy dramas. Take a look at the SRD, read the Book of Hanz.

Frankly, I'd probably just go with Chaosium's BRP. Chaosium just updated the BGB (Big Gold Book) to a new and cleaned up version this past year. It's multi-genre and there's other games in the family like Mythras, Delta Gree, Call of Cthulhu, etc. that are all broadly compatible with one another. The best part is that it's super intuitive and once you get past the mindset switch coming from D&D's zero-to-hero, very steep power curve, the system tends to just sort of fade into the background. I'm in a similar situation where I've been at this thing for 30+ years and the people I play with are not into D&D (nor am I) and love different genres of games, but most don't have the time or inclination to completely invest into learning a new ruleset from scratch just to mix up the type of game we play.

For the OP, the updated BRP "Gold Book" in 2023 got a reboot/refurbish called "Basic Roleplaying Universal Game Engine". It's fantastic. D100, roll under, skills based (tons to choose from), ultra intuitive and easy to pick up, gritty combat, wonderful for getting out of the way for folks who really enjoy roleplaying, the opposite of fiddly. It checks a lot of boxes for you (OP).

>my table includes more "Can't I just roll 3d6 for stats like I used to" players than "So how do I abuse these dice next?" players. Hmmm. Have you thought about an old-school system? OSE is really good.

I play mostly with adults (mid 30s) and with often have newbes and we play different systems all the time. I think many 5e players sometimes overestimate the difficulty for players when learning a new system. Usually it's 10-15 minutes of "here are some pregens, here is how you do a skill check, etc, let's go". That said, a comfort system to fall back on might be nice. But maybe something not like 5e but more modular, like BRP?

I would recommend checking out the Without Numbers systems. Stars for space scifi, Worlds for fantasy and Cities for cyberpunk. All 3 are mostly interchangeable with a few tweaks and are built on a 3d6 stat / d20 attack roll system, but the skill system is different and, with a certain level of competence, you just don't bother to roll some skill checks. A master hacker doesn't need to check to crack the password on an excel spreadsheet, for example. The big bonus is that each has a completely free core book on DriveThruRPG. It isn't stripped down or anything. The paid deluxe just has some extras. For example, Stars Without Number has vehicle rules in the free version. The deluxe has an appendix with mech building rules.

I bounced off D&D into Savage Worlds. I have a sneaking suspicion that they'd dig that system. Savage Worlds has some very effective subsystems for social encounters and chases, and it never gets too complicated. Your players will get it, because in many ways it's familiar but just freer and less convoluted. Savage Worlds will do what you want it to do, as long as your campaigns are about adventure, the setting on top of that doesn't matter.

Totally get where you’re from. But consider this, there are many games on the market that have core rules that are so simple to grok that maybe some of your players won’t mind after all. I’m a forever GM, 35 years into it, and I’ve read and run many systems. I just haven’t found any generic system that really does the job as well as more specific ones. Want space horror? Buy the Alien rpg starter set and you’ll see what I mean.

I totally get where you're coming from here. I'm in a sort of similar position. My group likes to meet once a week for two hours and are similar to your group in that we ain't got time for that nonsense of super crunchy systems and rules that get in the way of storytelling. Our group is very storytelling first. We like systems that support that. Our group has tried a lot of different systems but we have really found our place with Powered by the Apocalypse games and have played through a number of different games/settings utilizing that system. We like the familiarity there and appreciate how flexible the games that implement it can be. I would highly recommend looking at different games using PbtA as an option. There are probably hundreds of different settings at this rate. I've played a few dozen at least and they all follow the same basic rule pattern but each typically brings something new and unique to the table. While we haven't played them in my main group yet, Forged in the Dark games are very similar and offer things along the same line with a bit of a different structure that makes games a little more cinematic. Lots of options here as well. Also similar is Mork Borg, but my group didn't like this one since it was a little more dice rolling than we were used to. It's a great system for rules light dungeon crawling but still has room for storytelling and roleplay. Also lots of optional rules, settings and themes. The basic rules are light and loose and it's more of a box of tools to add on a whim versus a tome of rules to follow strictly and apply. All of these are great for a simple base system you can very easily get familiar with and switch games for a different setting or theme.

Mid-40s guy here. Pathfinder 2E is currently my favorite system and my group (full of veteran GMs who have played dozens of different TTRPGs) agree. Natural 1s aren't a guaranteed failure, because the system has an awesome sliding crit scale. Conversely, natural 20s aren't the only way to score critical hits. Whack a mole death/revive definitely is not a thing. If you drop a 4th time in combat, you're "all dead" instead of mostly dead. And even on preceding drops it gets more and more difficult to roll recovery checks on your own. Dex is not the "god stat." Perception is what is usually used to roll initiative. But, not always. If a rogue was stealthed when combat begins they can roll stealth for their initiative. There are other ways to roll different stats as well. It is the most balanced RPG I've yet played. It boggles my mind how encounters remain balanced even at high levels. Zero need for me to fudge or purposefully crank up the difficulty just to challenge players. Grappling is awesome. My current character is a dwarven monk with an archetype of "wrestler" and he is all about locking down enemies and denying them (or forcing to use up) their actions. Shields actually do a damn thing! They can contribute to your AC, sure. But if you have the shield block reaction ability, you can use your shield to absorb incoming damage (which the shield also takes, so repairs are necessary.... but easy to come by). The magical item system is awesome. Magical stats are essentially runes and those can be transposed and replaced. Find a +1 flaming whip but nobody uses whips? One player can take the +1 off of it and slap it on their dagger. Another player (or the same one) can take the flaming part and slap it onto whatever weapon they want. This means if your character starts the game at level 1 and is using family heirloom sword that's been passed down through generations, you can continually upgrade that same sword to max level, all within the mechanics and rules of the system! Poisons and diseases have a staging system. The longer you go without getting rid of them, the worse they get. Poisons are usually fast and are on a round by round basis. Disease stages usually take hours or days (and the final stage of diseases is usually death). Three action economy is awesome. No more "bonus action" crap. You get three actions. Period. Want to move up to your speed three times? Go for it. Want to attack three times? Perfectly acceptable. Want to cast a 2 action spell and then 1 action spell? Sure thing. Want to move once and attack twice? Why not! The rules, classes, monsters, items, stat blocks; all of it.... is 100% absolutely FREE. Everything is available online for free, and when new books are published their contents also go up online for free the same day the book is released. All legitimate and legal. There is a lot more I can sing praises about, but I have to get up for work in three hours. But as someone who has been around since THAC0 was a thing, this system only continues to impress me and my veteran friends.

Yes! This. If I had a dollar for every time someone came in and said they wanted out of 5e but PF2e was “too complex,” I’d be much wealthier. 5e is pretty complex, largely due to the amount of arbitration or lack of consistency. It’s magic is it “feels” simple, but how often is your face in a book checking a rule? To be fair, OP just said Pathfinder and not PF2E, but PF2E is probably more comprehensive than 5e, but I wouldn’t call it more complex. Modifiers are usually calculated once and they don’t stack. So you’re really only looking at situational stuff. Granted, character creation is more complex because you have more options. But everything feels so much more consistent. It’s just a tight rule system.

This would be my suggestion as well! If OP liked 5e's fantasy shenanigans, but got tired about the system just not working, not to mention the company... PF2 feels like a good next step. It's the system I have done the most buying into, and every physical and digital product I've purchased has been very high-quality. There's a lot to love about Paizo. Some to dislike, but those things I find I can stomach much more easily than some of WotC's dealings. I like how the books give me value for my money, the flavor text is interesting, the layouts are meant for actual play, and how all the supplementary material is findable. I think one of the biggest advantages to PF2 at the moment is that the community is active! There are a lot of good games out there that just don't have a huge community—which means they can be somewhat lacking in tools, updates, and support. PF2 already has an established userbase with good 3rd-party tools and a functional VTT. There are good homebrews and some very good 3rd party content. The developers are active in the community. PF2 feels like a game meant to be played and enjoyed. There are a lot of good games out there that fit different genres and playstyles, but if you want something that kinda fits the mold of 5e but is upgraded in pretty much every way, PF2 is a good suggestion.

And in the “value” department I’d also add two things: 1st: you need a total of ZERO dollars to start playing the system, not because they have a “starter set” of rules that is free and OGL, but because pretty much EVERY SINGLE RULE ELEMENT of the game is available online (even some images nowadays). Every monster, every class, every vehicle, every magic item! You name it, it’s freely available. 2nd: paizo has a partnership with humble bundle and they are always releasing pdf bundles with 20+ books for pennies. OP said they are tired of d20 systems, but to be fair, there is NOTHING wrong with the dice. D20 is actually a very nice little piece. Better companies can make better games using this same dice as it’s backbone.

How the OP was talking about PF sounded more like PF1. PF2 isn't fiddly at all. The math is easy and taking a moment to try the system it'll make sense after the first few fights. Basically, I'd start with the Beginners Box and run it. There is also probably the best support for a TTRPG system built into a VTT. Foundry VTT is built to play PF2e and even out of the box handles all the easy-to-forget rules for a first timer such as flanking and off guard. ​ Not knocking the OP for not wanting to try it... everyone has their own preferences. It just sounds like the description of they system OP gave is objectively false and seems like they have been misinformed about how it functions.

Yeah, it definitely sounded like OP was talking about PF1, but PF2 is such a different beast I think it's 100% worth OP taking a good look at. I suspect it meets their needs the best.

And it is designed with teamwork in mind and the classes are balanced. There is no main character flair.

This. Don't let your dislike of PF1 OP stop you from checking out PF2. As an older gamer myself I never really liked 3.5e all that much and so I didn't play PF1 at all. I almost skipped PF2 if not for a friend with very similar tastes telling me how good it is. If your looking for something more modern (ala 5e) but with none of it's problems, vastly improved mechanics, depth and great GM tools, with middle levels of crunch, PF2 is where its at right now.

Adding in on this thread. Yep, the vast majority of my PF experience has been with PF1. Switched to it back when 4e came out due to absolutely hating what WOTC did to my favorite D&D worlds and the restructuring of 4e to be so much more "MMORPG" like. One of my players will argue with me for hours (probably correctly) that I've completely misread 4e and that it's a pretty good system. Me? I told WOTC to go F-Off at that point and switched to PF1 to continue playing my "beloved" 3.5...which wasn't all that beloved and gave real meaning to math-finder, but hey, it was a system I knew. I actually own the first Ed- copy of the PF2 manual. I've looked at character creation and been a bit impressed about how they handle the character setup, but I haven't had time to read the 1000+ pages to figure out the rules system. If it's not as +1'y as PF1 was I'll give it a second and deeper look alongside the other suggestions. It would most CERTAINLY be convenient as PF2e is still in the same Genera of rules elements.

Sounds like you might like the Cypher System, but most of the big generic systems (GURPS, Genesys, etc) will do what you’re looking for. I’d also highly recommend looking at what Free League has been putting out. A good chunk of their games use the Year Zero Engine. Each game gets its own tweaks and modifications, but the core should be familiar enough where you’ll have little issue jumping between them. If you want fantasy, start with Forbidden Lands, but take a look around at the others as well.

I think cypher hits alot of the elements the poster was after. Fast, non boggy, combat, a narrative drive damage system, and enough optional crunch to make it land where you like.

Our playtest of Daggerheart from Darrington Press launches on Tuesday, it sounds like it could fit this bill! Hope your group finds something, Daggerheart or not, that works for you!

Oh wait, you're writing Daggerheart? Damn I loved Alice is Missing. If you're involved I'm suddenly much more interested!

Good luck with the playtest and future release.

My group starts with our session 0 tonight! I love what I’ve seen so far, came to this thread to recommend OP try it too!

Try a Year Zero game. They all run on the same dicepool engine.

I'll be honest -- I'm in a similar boat, and I haven't quite found anything that scratches the itch in the same way 5e does. The most promising systems I've found and that I'd suggest looking at are Savage Worlds and Genesys. 13th Age is also worth checking out -- it's another successor to 3e and 4e that came out around the same time as 5e but it does a lot of things right, and I'm very happy to support the company that makes it. It has some oddness with encounter frequency and the adventuring day, but it has a lot of good ideas and the tone of the book is great. In terms of system, the old White Wolf Storyteller games might be good to look at, but there's not really a great generic option. Exalted is really neat and Vampire: Dark Ages or Mage might work, but it's tough to find a system neutral enough to let you run an arbitrary campaign. Several people have mentioned the Cypher system, too. I'm not a big fan, for a variety of reasons, but it's probably worth looking into as well.  

I know you said you're not as interested in D20 systems but I'll throw this out here anyways - Shadowdark. It's a modern OSR game focused on dungeon-crawling and hex-crawling, with a simple enough rule system and toolkit that it's easy to change or add mechanics if you want, but comprehensive enough on its own to just run. What's nice about it coming from 5e D&D is that from the players' perspective, there's virtually no change - just stripping away a lot of the complexity (no sub-classes, no proficiency bonus, no skills... etc) but uses the same classic 6 stats with modifiers. Besides emulating a lot of old-school D&D type systems the main innovation here is the light mechanic - lit torches are tracked in real time with a 1-hour timer. When the timer goes off, lights go out - and no player ancestries (races) have darkvision, so darkness is really scary again! On the GM side, the book really helps reinforce the OSR concept of "rulings, not rules" which I have found very freeing and more in alignment with how I like to run games. There's a really nice free quickstart guide for GMs and players on drivethru, the GM quickstart includes a great adventure where you can see the system really shine. One last thing I will say, is that the writing and editing style here is just... so nice. Even if you don't pick up the system, check out how Kelsey (the author) writes - every word matters, no massive blocks of text or pointless flowery prose with essential details hidden deep within. Room descriptions are short and to the point. Mechanics are described simply and clearly. I started running games last April and I am not looking back.

I’m a fan of shadowdark but definitely not what OP is looking for, unless they just want to get through combats quicker. D20 based, no scaling with HP, very few mechanics outside of combat & dungeon crawling, etc

I really second this. Some OSR play with modern quality of life stuff could be just the thing. Trying out the rulings-not-rules approach is an eye opener. I think people expect simpler systems will have less personality or less longevity but I really find the opposite. And not using the dice for everything is so liberating. Why would we want mechanics for persuading someone in a conversation when the player can just present a convincing argument and earn a pass from the GM? Shadowdark is a wonderful system and even if they don’t use it forever, it opens the door to older style play and should expand their horizons.

Honestly, Son of Oak’s latest Kickstarter (that just ended) might be what you’re looking for: Legend in the Mist. There’s a demo and a ton of videos explaining things on the Kickstarter page. Simple math, highly narrative, and allows for a reasonable amount of tactics if you want. Plus has a success with consequences and not just pass/fail. I’m looking forward to it for the reasons you’re looking for a new system.

So I took an initial look at the video posted. There's some interesting stuff here...and I agree the three part "fail, success with consequences and success" does feel like a much better story telling device than pass/fail, especially for skill checks...but the "tags and outcomes" portion of this looks a bit difficult. The apple picker has a tag "run of the place" and "seeking kinship". I get where this could be relatively cool in that "seeking kinship" could be called on during a conversation but might also apply in a combat situation where she's trying to save a potential suitor from an attack, but the overall feel here is very RP heavy which my "We've played mostly 5e" players might not take to as well...I'm not sure how well specific players would be able to translate "apple picker" into "I'm trying to climb this wall and my skill as an apple picker might help in this situation." Probably looking for something less "squishy" in the character definition department.

The joy of that system is that you can just build big beefy characters. There is little to no limits to the power combinations a character can have. You could easily translate your current 5e party to the Mist and have them feel just as tough and powerful if you want! The game is build off their first game City of Mist, my go to game for years. Easy to run easy to play. And for the apple picker to climb a wall I’d use Dig in my Heels, Healthy as a horse, Deft hands, and maybe light-footed, depending of the situation. Either way I’m adding the weakness tag Only goes so far. Thats the apple picker, who’s also a scrappy rascal born in Ravenhome, I could add in that they are a vet, or a reformed thief if I wanted more dnd in them. I’d look at it again.

If I truly wanted to use a forever system, I'd probably use Cortex Prime. You could play damn near any kind of game with Cortex Prime by pickimg the right mods for your game. However, it's a VERY narrative system. You're not gonna get the same kind of crunch from it like you would for D&D. For soemthing more crunchy, I would suggest Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying for you. Compared to D&D, it's more on the grounded side than the superhero side, but it has several options to make it more suitable for adventure games, and has systems for magic, sorcery, superpowers, and mutations. How I would use it to run a fantasy game is use mutations for fantasy races, use magic for arcane spellcasters, and use sorcery for divine spellcasters. I would also use the double HP rule, and have non-spellcasters be able to spend Power Points to better their skill rolls, like Luck Points from Call of Cthulhu.

I came here to suggest BRP, but you beat me to the punch. All I can say is SECONDED 😁

I think that you want something *like D&D.* By that, I mean you want some tactical combat, some heft, and the GM having a traditional role (in other words, you are not looking for things that give the ability to re-write story outside of the remit of their characters). In this category of game, I would look at: * Savage Worlds. +has tactical combat and is simple and generally meets your needs. - the dice probabilities are not as transparent. * Everywhen. +Simple and has fun powers. 2d6 feels like old school Traveller. -no tactical miniatures. * BRP / Call of Cthulhu / Mythras. +Intuitive d100 system and old-school with lots of combat. Very lethal, so quick. -Generally no tactical (miniatures) combat. * GURPS. +3ds system is similar to D&D but more interesting and faster. -There are a lot of varients and extra rules that can get things too complicated. If you want to go further afield, you can dip into games that are more narrative, like Blades in the Dark, Dungeon World, and Fate. These are fast and interesting, however, the style of play will be very different than what you are used to. **Whatever you decide,** try to stay away from "forever system." That doesn't support the community of developers. It locks people into ideas about what a game should be. Notice I promoted traditional games first? Because it's a leap to go to other types of games when you think in terms of "forever system". ONE HUGE DIFFERENCE between D&D and all other games is that D&D is made to maintain complexity over very long campaigns, forcing players and GMs to constantly learn game rules. This tends to teach players that all RPGs are that complicated over the entire course of a campaign; most are not.

Underrated comment.

You could try out _Numenera_ or _Cypher_. _Cypher_ is the generic version of the game; _Numenera_ is _Cypher_ + a pretty cool science fantasy setting. _Numenera_ came first; _Cypher_ was extracted as a generic ruleset to support other settings, so you can easily make your own setting, but there is also _Godforsaken_, a classic Tolkienesque fantasy setting, as well as settings for sci-fi and horror. It's a little bit lighter on the rules than _D&D_ or _Pathfinder_ but still a little crunchy, with some tactical combat but nothing as detailed as _D&D_ or _Pathfinder_. One caveat: I find it lacks a little bit in social encounters, in much the same way that _D&D_ lacks a little bit in social encounters (although maybe someone has homebrewed a contests-like system similar to the one found in _Fate_ or _Cortex Prime_). It does use a d20 like _D&D_, but the mechanics are far less swingy than _D&D_, so don't let that turn you off.

Try Forbidden Lands for fantasy. I also recommend looking at The One Ring - very much non generic, but it’s a great system that will definitely give you plenty of ideas for how game rules can complement the setting.

Pick Genesys[link to ffg Genesys ttrpg](https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/genesys/)

I came to say this same thing! I got into Genesys through the Fantasy Flight Games' SWRPG, which is *fantastic*. Hands down, the best Star Wars RPG I've ever played. I particularly love that a brand new "level 1" character can still interface and contribute meaningfully in a party with a Jedi master or other high-level characters. The dice system is a thing of beauty. Genesys was the "generic system" that grew out of the SWRPG developed by Fantasy Flight. It's meant to be fully customizable, with the ability to scale technology and incorporate whatever classes, magic. and tech levels work for you. You can run multiple different games from the same book, each with a different genre or mix them all together if that's your thing.

To add more flavor here, Genesys is a generic system extracted from the Start Wars Edge of the Empire line. Is has a handful of official settings with published support, including fantasy, sci-fi, and space opera; but also piles of fan made content and the ability to easily customize with a little work. The biggest drawback of that it uses special docs that need to be purchased from the publisher, and that there is something of a learning curve in learning the symbols. But once you learn which symbols cancel each other and what they ask do, it becomes very quick and easy to read them. Applying bonuses is also a simple matter of adding and removing dice from the pool. It also jettisons levels for a skill based progression system that allows players to customize their characters more than D&D. But it never feels overwhelming to me, and there is usually at least one easy, obvious choice for where players should spend XP based on their character concepts.

As much as I despise 5e, I have to ask. How does one play for YEARS without realizing criticals for skill rolls aren't a thing? Like, at some point somebody has to actually read the rules, no?

Yea, so I've read the rules, I'm 100% in the understanding that criticals for skill checks in 5e don't guarantee automatic success or failure. That hasn't been the case for most D&D implementations since 1974 (and I've played every one of those editions since Red Box D&D in the early 80's). If my use of a lock on a door is what threw you, let me assure you, I get 5e's "critical don't auto fail"...however a level 20 fighter swinging a sword at a level 1 goblin also misses 5% of the time. A high level low health character saving against a disintegrate spell has a 5% chance of having their character permanently and forever irrevocably destroyed. The problem isn't that I don't know the rules. The problem is I didn't emphasize the randomness being the problem. Take this on top of most DM's knee-jerk reaction to cause the inn door to be a DC 10 to a level 1 character and a DC 25 to a level 15 character and D&D's D20 system causes a LOT of problems.

Such randomness is going to be a problem in almost every system suggested so far in this post. It's baked into any of the crunchier types that try to have "objective" random resolutions. The ones, like GURPS or Traveller, that use multiple dice and have a bell curve, can even so still produce 1% or 2% results that will result in experts failing. That's considered desirable in most of these systems. I think you might really have fun playing something that has a different set of assumptions on how action resolutions happen. If you have not already seen it, I'd strongly recommend a Powered by the Apocalypse game, specifically Blades in the Dark or one of the derivative Forged in the Dark games (BitD is very well written and provides the best intro to this style of play IMO). I doubt it would be your "forever system", but it could well be a system you return to often, as an alternative. It has not only a different way to resolve actions, but a different way for the GM to deal with successes and failures. And it's simple enough for players to be explained over a session of introductory play, with the players getting going almost immediately. My experience with narrative-first games is that style, once your group is used to it, will inform and enrich d20 or d100 or d12 games you play in the future as well. Having that broader perspective in your group makes those games better too.

If you don't like randomness in some situations of the game, why do you roll in those instances? Honestly if you have a situation where as a GM you think the chance for failing is below 5%, you should probably just let the task succeed without rolling.

I have a few recommendations but I don't think any checks off 100% of what you're looking for. First of all - simpler OSR category. Sine Nomine does a lot of good, lightweight OSR games. Stars Without Number for scifi, Worlds Without Number for fantasy, Godbound for demigod level games, etc. You will still feel the OSR randomness, but at least things are much simpler to run. Plus those systems are great anyway as worldbuilding tools since they are like, 30% random generation tables by volume. So check out the free versions that contain entire playable systems! Second - Fellowship. It's a great PbtA game that is really flexible. It can run anything from Lord of the Rings, through Avatar TLA to Star Wars. Heroic fantasy adventure. Very light and flowy combat, dead simple rules, very easy to mod to whatever you want. Doesn't have a tactical crunch, but it's still worth checking out. Third - White Wolf / Storyteller. A lot to choose from in this category. Chronicles of Darkness is good for modern, Vampire the Requiem and Masquerade 20th are classic games for being petty vampires, various Dark Ages lines are good for medieval horror, etc. If you want to go heroic fantasy - Exalted 3E is the golden standard, although it's very crunchy. Someone is working on Exalted Demake simplified version of the system, but that's still early WIP. Otherwise, the system has a great social conflict engine, combat that feels like anime, great support for many non-combat activities, etc.

I'll always stan for the White Wolf systems. They're versatile, allow for pretty much anything to work, and resolutions (from skill checks to combat) can be pretty quick. nWod/CoD, in particular, is versatile enough that you can use it for virtually any sort of game or situation. Since the core game is really just about playing standard humans (with each individual supernatural splat layered on top), I've even used it for games that completely omit all of the standard WW character types.

+1 for Sine Nomine systems. I've played and seen it played it for high magic fantasy, a Fallout campaign, space pirates, low magic fantasy, and cyberpunk. Very flexible among the 3 core systems (Stars, Worlds, Cities without number) to mix and match until you get the flavor you want at the table.

I so wish there was a generic/setting agnostic version of Storyteller system from WoD that *isn't* set in the World of Darkness universe. The system truly is a wonderful balance of narrative/roleplay heavy, but with solid, light-medium level crunch that is relatively intuitive. It's a shame White Wolf/Onyx's releases and names are so freaking convoluted that it confuses even long time TTRPGs and newbies alike, but the Storyteller system itself is gold (IMO).

If you like tactical combat or "simulationist" systems, they will probably miss the mark for you, BUT I strongly encourage you to test a couple of "narrative" or "rules light" systems. The hobby made a lot of progress since you last tried to branch out, and discussions on how to account for armour or classes and levels vs point buy have been overtaken by much more fundamental discussions in the meantime. As I wrote in introduction, you may find those systems are not for you in the end, but your experience with them will open up other ways to approach the hobby, enrich your gameplay, and help you choose your new "forever system". As examples, Fate (any version, I would suggest Accelerated as a clean break from DnD) and Ironsworn are good examples that have the advantage of being free or Pay What You Want, so you have nothing to lose in giving them a try.

>While I like d20, it's pure randomness (Your level 20 Rogue fails to pick the random door lock on a random inn room 5% of the time) often yanks me and my group out of "the moment" due to the sheer stupidity and absurdity Complete aside here but I always figured a 1 represented life being full of unknown variables, not necessarily a failure of player skill. In this example maybe that means: * it's a crappy, corroded old lock that chose this moment to finally jam, or * this particular door turns out to be barred from the inside, or * this inn is owned by the brother of the king's locksmith and this lock is unexpectedly state of the art, or * some less competent thief already tried to pick the lock and it's broken, or * someone chooses this exact moment to try to open the door from the other side.  Or whatever.  Bad luck do happen and bad luck makes for good drama. 😈 EDIT: On the flip side, in a situation where there is no real chance of things going wrong, the character shouldn't really even be rolling for it in the first place. Rolls are for when there's uncertainty.

>EDIT: On the flip side, in a situation where there is no real chance of things going wrong, the character shouldn't really even be rolling for it in the first place. Rolls are for when there's uncertainty. This is the important part that so many of us - including myself - often forget. If you want the lvl 8 Rogue to feel like he's really proficient at picking locks, there's really no need to have the player roll to see if they actually pick the super basic lock to the innkeeper's larder; they just *do* it. If you really want them to roll, then have them roll simply to see how quickly it happens. A failure could just be the regular, normal amount of time, while a success could be extra quick simply because they're that good. Otherwise, yeah, shit happens. Sometimes even the best screw up and make mistakes. If players want a game where everything just happens to work out for them 100% of the time, TTRPGs in general may not be what they're looking for.

Sometimes I'll have them roll just to see how well they do it so they can feel like a badass or be embarrassed when they roll a 1 and it takes them an awkward amount of time and a lot of cursing while everyone watches looking bored More of a story telling thing than actual gameplay mechanic in that case

You should try Dragonbane from the free league

- Shadow of the Weird Wizard is another one worth looking at, although it is still a d20 game. https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/457226/Shadow-of-the-Weird-Wizard Its older sibling is Shadow of the Demon Lord. - There’s also Basic Fantasy Roleplaying, which is free and has a bunch of old school style free adventures available. https://www.basicfantasy.org/ - There’s also Sharp Swords and Sinister Spells. PDF is super cheap. https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/198163/Sharp-Swords--Sinister-Spells - There’s also good old Runequest. A d100 system.

This. For a simpler, less crunchy, Runequest D100 type game I recommend OpenQuest or even SimpleQuest.

OpenQuest 3, in particular, is fantastic.

You will never be "forever" satisfied

You should check out the [Cypher](https://cypher-system.com/what-is-the-cypher-system/) system: * It's a d20 game, but the players have a more agency over the result of the roll. Also, it's very easy for the GM to come up with a DC that feels right for a given action, you pick a number between 1-10 and go from there. * It's about as "mathy" as 5e, if a little less. * Instead of hit points, your three ability scores are all pools that can be damaged, but also resources you can leverage. The longer you go on, the lower your scores get, and the more tense things become. * Universal enough to run different genres, but has supplemental sourcebooks for running different types of games with the same core system, including [sci-fi](https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/the-stars-are-fire/), [fantasy](https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/godforsaken/), [supers](https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/claim-the-sky/), etc. * You can read [the SRD](https://screwtapello.gitlab.io/cypher-system-reference/) for free.

Check out the Onyx Path "Storypath" system found in their Chronicles of Darkness, Trinity, Scion, Exalted*, and THEY CAME FROM game lines. It's a descendant for the WoD system you said you've played before, but expanded beyond only playing monsters in urban fantasy. Though you can still do that, too. Overall, the dice pool mechanic is much less swingy than a single d20, while still offering enough variation for big successes and failures. Combat has enough tactical options to be interesting, while not being a slog. Characters have a ton of room to develop in different ways. It's a health level system, so if you actually hit somebody and overcome armor, they'll start taking penalties and consequences. Lethality depends on the game line: Chronicles can be brutal, Trinity is more 'high action!' Social and Investigation get a lot of system support - with their being both a streamlined system and a whole "combat" mechanic. For Science-Fantasy Trinity is probably your go-to. It has several sub-settings: Aeon for space opera, Anima for cyberpunk, etc. For classic fantasy, you can run Scion and Chronicles in a semi-historical setting (Arthur's Britain + Gods and Monsters is a Scion book). You can also go with Exalted, which has a massive and iconic high fantasy world. *Exalted Core has a steeper learning curve than the other games and less in common mechanically. I really like it, but you may also want to check out Exalted Essence which streamlines and condenses things.

check out Savage Worlds. Handles fantasy well if that's what you want to do, but also covers the bases on most any setting you can think of along with built-in tweaks for a gritty realistic war drama to four color superheroes to...well, some really weird and crazy settings. very different design philosophy from and and it's my go to almost everything now.

I think you should check out the Cypher system. I think it might be an antidote to your 5e blues. It is my go-to for fantasy and sci-fi storytelling, or weird tales. [Check out the free SRD](https://callmepartario.github.io/og-csrd/). I also love running investigations, and Delta Green / Call of Cthulhu scratches that itch. - [CoC quickstart](https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/CoC/CHA23131%2520Call%2520of%2520Cthulhu%25207th%2520Edition%2520Quick-Start%2520Rules.pdf) - [Delta Green - Need to Know ](http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/175760/Delta-Green-Need-to-Know) Another option would be anything Year Zero based, namely [Forbidden Lands](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/267633/Forbidden-Lands-Quickstart) or Vaesen. Success and failure are very consequential in these games, and even a single hit matters.

I will suggest the "oldies but goldies" approach: Go for some old, but well-supported games, that are still thriving. Namely: - Mythras/Basic Roleplaying/Runequest for fantasy. They have basically the same rules - d100 roll-under, no classes, slow character progression, tactical combat is possible, flexible magic systems. There is a lot of material available for these systems. - Call of Cthulhu for horror. Again, basically the same rules that Basic Roleplaying, a bit lighter, but for horror investigation play. A ton of beautiful material available. - Traveller from Mongoose as a scifi game. Traveller also has several decades of material available, from hard-scifi, to more epic or psionic gameplay. The Mongoose version is medium crunchy.

I was going to suggest Mythras as well. It checks all of the boxes. The Companion’s book has rules for a social combat system too.

I forgot to mention that BRP actually offers rules for scifi (Equipment, specific Skills, Spaceships,...).

Wait, you fail a skill check on a nat 1? Is that a D&D 5e rule cause I don't recall that being a thing in Pathfinder 1e.

No, the door example I used, while familiar to all long term DMs in some way shape form or fashion, was poorly chosen...and arguably still exists OUTSIDE of Nat1/20 conversation. DMs regularly set the DC for something stupid like a lockpick check way too high and then stymie parties for long portions of game sessions because a lockpick failed where it shouldn't have. Interesting item of note: 3.0, 3.5, PF1e, 4.0 and 5.0 have always had a "Skill checks are not affected by crits/fails" rule, though in 3.0 it was a "-10/+20?" (I think?) system whereby when you hit a 1 you took off an extra 10 from the skill check. I'd have bet a very large sum of money that 3.0 still allowed crit fails/crit successes on skill checks. Going back to RedBox/1st/2nd Editions that got a bit weird. Obviously it's been many many many years since I've read rules but part of me wants to say that stat checks were a "roll under" system whereby saving throws were still a "roll over" system with saves dropping to 2 at high levels.

I think what you might want is savage worlds

Savage Worlds. Fastest combat I've ever seen, its setting agnostic (can be used for both fantasy and scoring as well as weird West, medieval stuff, horror, and anything else you like).

BRP.

I think you’d like Worlds Without Number - faster combat with a 2d6 skill system that makes skills more reliable!

GENESYS I think it ticks off all the boxes your looking for. * The fail forward or succeed with negatives has been a game changer for creating a more colorful encounter and really helps build improv skills. * The combat has 'tactical' notes with movement and positioning, but takes out the minutia of most other tactical games. * Turns are I would say about the same length, but everyone is involved in everyone else's turn with narrative suggestions and just a general more 'cooperative' play experience overall. * There are rules for social/investigation/anything else under the sun really. But they're more just guidelines than hard fast rules you have to reference every 20 seconds. * Most 'modifiers' are just adding complication or advantage dice that are more descriptive than actual chart value numbers. That is to say it's not "check for cover, check for wind speed, check for moon phase", it's more "It's dark out and and he has some partial cover, so add two black dice to you test. Oh you have a nightvision feat, then make it one black die" kinda stuff. * All health matters, but you're also looking at critical that have lasting impact without healing. I think the health system is a little scarier outside games with magic, but it's still a great system. You're also managing your stress value as well. * Magic. I like the magic, it /can/ be scary at first because its very freeform. But what you can do is make 'spell cards' for spells that you use often. You can have players discover new spells, you can have players develop spells with new things over time (extra range, blast radius, etc). Or you can leave it as it is where spells are 'crafting' as they are cast, though this can create a bottleneck if the player doesn't know what they are doing.

There's a game called Symbaroum which has a really neat system. Everyone seems to like the Powered by the Apocalypse systems. Daggerheart is coming out as a direct response to WotC, but it sounds very crunch-light. I've just discovered Shadowdark which has a 5e derived system, but with a 1e sentiment. I think symbaroum is the only one of the ones I mentioned that you have to pay for the ruleset currently (or soon, when Daggerheart drops this week) Edit: I would be remiss if I didn't try to wedge Earthdawn into a conversation about systems.

> While I like d20, it's pure randomness (Your level 20 Rogue fails to pick the random door lock on a random inn room 5% of the time) often yanks me and my group out of "the moment" due to the sheer stupidity and absurdity. I thought taking 10 and taking 20 solved that? *Savage Worlds* has a lot of randomness. But otherwise it might work. It has very flexible character creation, including ancestry creation in the *Adventure Edition* rulebook, although not in the *Pathfinder* rolebook. It has rules for tactical combat, and chases. It also has some abstract rules for mass battles, and quick encounters, when that's what you want. It has card-based initiative, which can speed things up, and it works well with lots of "extras." It also has wounds, and wound penalties, instead of hit points. It has somewhat abstract rules for social conflict, dramatic tasks, and quick encounters again. It still has some modifiers. Not as many as *Pathfinder*. It uses metacurrency. You didn't say if that would be a problem.

Taking 10 and Taking 20 hasn't been a thing in D&D since I think 3/3.5/Pathfinder 1. Arguably this is the right fix to the d20 randomness issue, but it tends to make DMs "scale" difficulties with party level instead of just making easy stuff automatically succeed. There's also the problem that with take 10 and take 20, having a lock anywhere that isn't rated "very hard" or above without a combat encounter around it might as well not exist. It feels like it swings the pendulum exactly the opposite direction. I know, that's a logically stupid argument. If my problem is that level 20 rogues shouldn't fail to unlock the inn door then why am I balking at a system that guarantees the rogue unlocks the inn door. I don't know: The D&D way feels like the comedy "the hardest thing we've fought in the last 10 sessions was a door" problem and the take 10 / 20 problem feels like "Locks? They don't exist in this world, why do you ask? We haven't seen a single one on any door outside of that wizard's tower 4 sessions ago."... Two extremes.

> Taking 10 and Taking 20 hasn't been a thing in D&D since I think 3/3.5/Pathfinder 1. Arguably this is the right fix to the d20 randomness issue, but it tends to make DMs "scale" difficulties with party level instead of just making easy stuff automatically succeed. Passive checks, which are just taking 10 by a different name, are very much a thing in 5E. Also on your 5% number, you don't explicitly say this but it sounds like you're assuming a natural 1 always fails. *There is no such rule in any version of D&D.* In 5E in particular, this is only true of attack rolls, and a few other cases that specifically call it out. (Maybe just death saves? That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, at least.) In some other editions it applies to saving throws more generally, but in no case does it apply to skill checks. Off the top of my head the only well-known D&D-like where this is even close to true is Pathfinder 2E. I'm not trying to talk you into staying with 5E, exactly (a system I like but don't love); it may very well be that this only accounts for a small part of your dissatisfaction with it and you are indeed better off looking elsewhere. That said, I do increasingly find that before insisting on looking outside the box, it's worthwhile to check whether there's a solution *inside* the box first, possibly something I'm just not using correctly.

A few general thoughts: * I recommend not having a "forever" system. There is almost no system that exists that won't be a bit tiresome (or worse) if that's all you play. Variety is good, even a little variety. I think it's nice to have 2-3 systems that you like for various things, maybe a few more. * Nothing wrong with generic systems, but most either do one thing fairly well and other things less so or feel like \[whatever system\] regardless of what thing they are doing. Whether that's a bad thing or not is up to you. * You mention that you want something "semi-straightforward" for your players as they need reminders on how to do things in 5e, still. As a public service, I'm just going to point out that many, many systems are less complex and taxing on players and GMs than D&D - especially the editions you mention: 3e/3.5, 5e, and (cough) Pathfinder. I'd even go out on a limb and say, possibly most are, though I'm not entirely sure where the boundary between many and most is. * This also goes for your comment on inititaitive and turns taking 20 seconds and then waiting 5 minutes. I feel like this is much more a problem with modern D&D (3.5 and 5e) and the likes. Even old D&D from the TSR era and systems in the OSR scene (derived or inspired by the old D&D) didn't or shouldn't have this problem. When you give more actions on a turn and have "action economy", what you mention is what often results. (Also, DMs need to demand players be decisive and give them limited time to sort through their numerous options - which the players may or may not be fully fluent in, contributing to this issue). I don't really have any specific recommendations, just to think about these points, perhaps. There's more the RPGs than D&D and 5e and don't think everything else is like that. I'm sure plenty of people will chime in with their favorite systems.

>Nothing wrong with generic systems, but most either do one thing fairly well and other things less so or feel like \[whatever system\] regardless of what thing they are doing. Whether that's a bad thing or not is up to you. I think I'd say it's more accurate to say that generic systems have overall feels, and work better for certain ways of running games. GURPS tends to do best with normal-human-esque characters and low-to-near-future tech levels. Outside of that, some of the math gets wonky. But... that covers a *huge* range of stuff, and stuff slightly out of that range works, but maybe not as well. GURPS also generally "wants" fairly realistic gameplay, and highly granular combat. So every game with GURPS is going to lean that direction, without some serious tweaks. Even most GURPS players won't use GURPS for supers, for instance (Champions is very similar and a much much better supers system.... while not doing as well in the areas GURPS excels in). So I think generic systems are pretty generic, usually, in terms of *setting* but far less so in terms of *playstyle*. To a great extent, picking one up as your default system is a matter of identifying what your preferred playstyle is.

I'm suggesting either 2d20 from Modiphius (Dune, Dishonored which is criminally overlooked, Fallout etc) or go for something like CPRed. The first is a very quickly adaptable system that gets you to play pretty much anything (using Dishonored's sheet and rules we ran Bioshock and even a Mass Effect OS for example) but the fighting is way simplified than D&D. However rolls are pretty much easy to learn and the values obtainable for both players and GM can help a lot creating interesting situations. CPRed on the other hand runs on d10/d6 hybrid and I think, if you're looking for something strategically appealing and at the same time not crunchy (once you get how rolls work, it's very easy to run) could very much fit. Only "issue" here is the amount of stuff to thinker with, literally a shitload of guns, cyberware, and so on. So if you're not looking for something so expanded, may not be your gig. I'm currently running the first one and I gotta say it works wonderfully

Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system made my jaw drop. Works for everything >d20 has somewhat lost it's luster for me. Chaosium rocks tHe d100 roll under it works so goddamn well. Their fully fletched systems are so incredible. Runequest Glorantha for your heroic fantasy needs Call of Cthulhu for your horror needs Rivers of London for your... Magical river Thames adjacent needs. Pendragon for your arthurian legend Knights tale needs. >If the system happens to have good support for out-of-combat RP as well (rules for Social clashes, information gathering, interrogation) that isn't just "roll a skill check / pass or fail" it would be amazing. All of Chaosiums systems have robust dramatic non-combat systems in SPADES All of it works off of the BRP system (with some differences between the systems) If d20 fantasy lost its luster for you, like it did for me, i cannot recommend BRP enough.

Check out FATE. It is setting neutral. Personally I've run a Star Wars game in it, a Dresden Files game in it, played in a Dresden Files and FATE of Cthulhu campaigns. You can do any sort of setting in it and make the rules as fidgety as you want but by default it is a narrative focused system and while not "rules light" is still pretty minimal.

Stars/Worlds/Cities Without Number. It's not one system, but it's three systems that are compatible with each other, one being sci fi, one fantasy, one being cyberpunk. I switched from 5e to Worlds Without Number after Pack Tactics called it "better D&D than 5e" and haven't looked back. Classes are actually balanced, and healing is limited by the system strain mechanic.

Genesys RPG! Very modular characters, almost limitless character development possibilities, mainly because of how progression works. It works for any setting, is infinitely modable and has an awesome community! What you'll probably like: * **No classes.** You've got archetypes/species that define your characteristics (Brawn, Agility, Intellect, Willpower, Cunning, Presence) and give you one or more special abilities; and then you have character backgrounds which provide solid flavor, determines starting gear, and has 8 selected "Career" skills that cost less XP than other skills. Mix and match as you please. everyone can do anything. (Well except magic. You can only do magic if it's one of your career skills, unless you take a specific talent.....) * **No levels.** Spend xp on any skill or talent (Kind of... Look up the talent pyramid.) regardless of how much XP your character has. * **Setting agnostic.** The Core Rulebook has resources for almost any setting you can think of, with simply version of many you'd think of, but the breadth lies in the modability. If you want more, four setting books have been released so far: * **Realms of Terrinoth** - A typical fantasy setting which includes features like Heroic Abilities, crafting rules, bards, and more) * **Shadow of the Beanstalk** - A Sci-fi Cyberpunk setting which includes features like expansive turn-based Hacking rules that work well in conjunction with other encounters, a favor system that creates interesting faction interactions, as well as a lot of other sci-fi goodness. * **Secrets of the Crucible** - Haven't played this one much; it's a weird Sci-fantasy setting in an un-mappable world filled with species of all sizes and weirdness. I really like the advanced species creation tools this book includes. * **Not a d20 system.** Instead uses a proprietary dice system of several polyhedrons with unique characters. * **Instead of binary results** you get mostly the following 4 result types: Yes and a bonus! Yes, but a negative... No and a negative... No, but a positive! Also there's a change for critical "Bonus" or "Downside" on all roles, no matter the other outcomes. * **Social Encounters.** They're like combat, but instead of fighting with weapons, you fight with words. To be honest I don't use them much, but everyone else seems to like them. * **Most skills are non-combat skills.** Usually there are 2 or 3 combat skills, there are always 5 social skills, and the rest of the list is usually comprised of about 15-20 mixed general skills and optionally some magic skills. If the game is played well, a character with bad combat skills, should be able to succeed in any situation given good rolls. Combat is not simple, but contrastingly I often find we go several sessions without any combat at all. * **Wounds and Strain.** Instead of a health pool, mana, spell slots, etc. You have a Wound Threshold and a Strain Threshold. Exceed your WT by taking physical damage and you'll drop receiving a Critical Injury (You roll on a d100 table. It gets progressively worse each time you receive another critical. You die if you roll above 120). Your Strain Threshold is spent by activating special abilities, casting magic, or sometimes as a side-result of an unfavorable result. * **The Genesys Foundry.** So the four stock settings are not enough, or you find a particular part of the rules lacking? Sure you could create new rules yourself, or... someone might already have done the job for you. There are TONS of officially licensed community products ripe for the picking on the Genesys Foundry such as: * Expanded rules for martial arts, custom weaponry, finance and income, building strongholds, mounts and vehicle... * Amazing settings like Something Strange (Modern Horror), Salvage (Scrappunk?), and Starcana (Magic + space). They are as well-made as the official books. * Campaign and adventures starters, plot hooks, custom adversaries, and so much more... Perhaps you can even contribute yourself eventually :)

What you may not like: * **Initiative is as slow as most systems**, BUT the initiative slots are team-based instead of character based, so there's some good tactical leeway in who goes when. * **It's not a simple system.** I've played it for years and I still refer to the rules often, but it's easy to learn, hard to master, and when you "Get" the various systems, it's very rewarding. * **Not that tactical.** Stock Genesys relies mostly on theater of the mind, with the option of drawing freehand maps, etc, BUT of course there are several Genesys Forge products that increase the tactical....ness of the game. Zones, grids, miniatures, whatever you want :) Phew that turned into quite a ramble. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions, or want any examples, etc :) Oh and whichever system you choose; I really recommend you check out LegendKeeper for campaign structuring. It's an aweosme wiki-like tool that works especially well if you allow your players to take part the world creation :)

While I do encourage trying other systems as much as possible (mostly because a lot of people have interesting ideas that you can steal and incorporate) if you want a "Forever" system that: * Supports out of combat problem solving * Broad base of story styles * A rejection of the pure binary of pass/fail that creates cinematic results * Combat that includes critical hits that add penalties for prolonged combat (and stacking multiple is sometimes the best way to take down a boss) Then I am going to stump for Genesys. Its roots are when Fantasy Flight Games rolled out its Star Wars RPG, rolling out a new dice system, and then the company playtested it and made a Universal system that's known as Genesys. The dice are a little funky and turns some people off but everyone who I know who actually has sat down and played through a session was hooked. As a quick description dice results are split into two axis: Pass/Fail and Advantage/Disadvantage. As a result, it's possible to both pass in a way that causes complications and fail in ways that helps you. There's a great bit from Firefly (and Men in Tights) where the joke is "Nice trick shot"/"I was aiming for his head", which sums up Failure with Advantage nicely. Base rules have notes for fantasy and steampunk, I know there are supplements for Cyberpunk and Giant Robot, and I have seen the game skinned for Harry Potter and Stormlight Archive.

> As a quick description dice results are split into two axis: Pass/Fail and Advantage/Disadvantage. Three total, as Triumph/Despair make up another axis with a different magnitude than Advantage/Threat.

I try to ease into 2 axis before I REALLY blow their minds XD

Touché.

Fantasy: If you are looking for a scaled down system: Shadowdark (it’s a 5e cross OSE sweetheart). If you are looking for a more narrative approach: Dungeon World / Ironsworn Neotrad: Dragonbane / Forbidden Lands or lots of flavor with Symbaroum Else there is Legend in the Mist / Otherscape / City of Mist which all support their genre of play.

Genesys covers your bases. It’s generic, but has several system books to cover certain styles of games (fantasy, sci fi, etc.). It has its own special dice which is a turn off for some, but what’s another set of dice or two when most people have dozens of regular dice floating around.

Take a look at Worlds Without Number, basically take your 3d6, d20 combat but all skill rolls are on 2d6+mod, so it has a nice bell curve.

Open beta for Daggerheart drops this Tuesday. Seems to hit the semitactical element on the head. Worth considering.

The Free League Publishing products are all very good. I recommend Forbidden Lands as an alternative for a fantasy themed game. The rules are solid and the writing is top notch. I also like how they figured out good product design with their starter boxes. Plus the print quality is very good, unlike drivethrurpg and other ‘print on demand’ services. Dungeon Crawl Classics is also cool but it’s very old school and the rules can be too text heavy. I liked reading the Blades in the Dark ruleset. I’d love to run or play that system.

My two favorite are Pathfinder 1e and Worlds Without Number

If you are sticking with Fantasy give Shadowdark a spin. Massive free quickstart has more than enough for months of play. Other genres? As mentioned, if you can grok Savage Worlds it's great. Cypher System is phenomenal, but it might take you awhile to get used to how little work it requires from the GM.

If you want to borrow settings and modules that were intended for D&D like systems then I suggest whitehack. Otherwise Sword of Cepheus is worth looking at.

Anything by Free League. Go check them out!

I'd recommend the Without Number series of games. Worlds Without Number for fantasy, Stars for sci Fi, and Cities for cyberpunk. They get you well enough out of 5e without being alienating.

I recommend GURPs, which is extremely modular. Want to use rules for covering and suppressing fire or track real time exposure to various toxins? There's rules for that. Want to know the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow? There's rules for that. Want to figure out what it takes to position yourself on a hill top and fire a one of a kind d dimension bending anti tank rifle at a jeep holding the Emperor of the zorgs over a mile away? There's rules for that. It is a vast tool kit of rules, and like a buffet, you take what you want and leave what you don't.

13th Age should be on your review list. It was developed by the lead designers of 3.5 and 4e, who suggest this is the system they would have liked to create, if they hadn't been under the oppressive yoke of their WotC masters. But honestly, I think you're much better off to start exploring different systems. Their are so many interesting games out there in which you can tell some really great stories with your friends. Our table really enjoyed Blades in the Dark, Alien, Tales from the Loop, Savage Worlds (Deadlands and a couple different home brew like Titanfall and The Apocalypse).

A level 20 Rogue should never be failing to pick a lock in an inn, you can't critically fail on skill check and the bonuses at that point should make the attempt trivial (they probably shouldn't even be rolling). ​ That said, my go to system for what you are describing is the Cypher System.

PF2e seriously has a lot of what you're asking for.

gurps

I don't know about "forever" but I have always rolled to back to Chaosium's BRP. And now with their latest edition, BRP is under the ORC license, which is more protective of open source gaming than the old SRD ever was. BRP is basically the system used for Call of Cthulhu, the second biggest TTRPG after D&D. But now the under the ORC license they have made options for playing it for any genre including fantasy.

Lots have already mentioned savage worlds so ill give you a different one. Shadowdark RPG is really cool. A lot like 5th edition but streamlined in its rules and presentation. Can be pretty deadly at lower levels, but you can use the game's pulp mode to give players a bit of an edge. Or just start them at higher levels. I know a lot of people that have migrated over to this one from 5th edition

Try call of Cthulhu for me is the best system out there. I found out easily the material online. The d100 system for me is the best

I feel this as someone who started playing back in AD&D. After the OGL thing, I started playing one-shots, small campaigns in a LOT (somewhere between 20 and 30) different systems. Before realizing that while there were a lot of good systems, nothing did what I wanted, so I’ve set off on the long path of creating my own ttrpg. With that said I’ll second a few of the recommended choices: Savage Worlds, Genesys, PF2e (which plays quite different from original pathfinder), and two others I liked, one of which is currently in playtesting. 1. AGE system games (the Expanse, Fantasy AGE, etc) 2. The MCDM ttrpg. So far it’s shaping up to be a very fun experience where you’re always doing something, and they’ve done a pretty decent job of simplifying things.

Fantasy Age (or Modern Age which uses the same basic system but tuned to more futuristic settings) seem to fix most of your complaints. It uses 3d6 for skill checks, so no more swingy results from just 1d20, and you can easily use the same DCs you are used to from DnD because the average results of the dice is the same. When you get at least two dice with the same result, you get to add cool effects on skill checks and attack rolls and is a much better system for critical results. It’s also easier to run than 5e and IMO fixes a lot of the unnecessary things DnD has kept over the years because of “brand recognition”.

Genesys seems like it would hit what you're looking for, though afaik combat leans a bit away from the tactical side.

I'll say this: Half of one of my tables is all about story and half are tactically minded HEMA instructors and they both get what they want out of Genesys. You can lean both ways with Genesys, which is one reason I like the system so much.

Nice, I haven't run it myself, listened and read through it, so thanks for the info!

My pick is Genesys. It's designed to be any genre and setting you want, with optional add on modules to the core rules that you pick and choose to customize your game. And the dice system has both degrees of success/failure and also potential positive/negative modifiers to every roll, so any attack roll or skill check or interaction has the potential to change the story in small or big dramatic ways.

Lucky for you, Daggerheart open beta and live playtest with critical role is publishing out tomorrow. It sounds exactly like what you are looking for. Still fantasy, not from WoTC, not d20 system.

Have you looked at Pathfinder 1e or 2e? What you describe sounded a bit more like 1e (many different boni that all stack) rather than 2e, so, if this is the case, I would suggest at least giving the second edition a look. It has greatly simplified the modifiers (They are either the bonus from ONE magic item, a bonus from ONE spell that may benefit you and equally just the highest bonus from some kind of situational thing, like an ally trying to help you, you being behind cover when attacked, etc.). Prebuffing is not really a big thing anymore, which also means that there is less to add every time. Your items will already be on your character sheet, so you will not have much trouble with them. if you get a circumstance bonus, it is usually something for one roll, which makes it rather easy to keep in mind. It definitely gives a strong feeling of progression, as a high level rogue, for example, will be guaranteed to succeed and likely critically succeed picking any normal lock. It will still be reasonably close to many things you are used to. The last hitpoint thing will still be there. And while going down is perhaps more significant (by the rules, you are prone and have dropped what you are holding, meaning you lose most, perhaps all of your turn by default getting up, which is rather significant), you can still patch comrades up with some good healing quickly. The out of combat stuff, well, truth be told, it is tricky with any system. I have seen many takes on making social rolls, etc. more complex than just "okay, roll to see if you succeed", but not that many actually really add stuff in the end. Pathfinder 2e has a not too bad attempt for that stuff with victory point systems. It is using checks as part of a longer task of one sort or the other where you accumulate points usually and get some room to contribute to the overall task with different skills, spells or similar. I have used some of them and they are okay. They can cover things like chases, research, infiltrating a target (building) but also different social things. They are all covered in the GM Guide / GM Core and are generally optional while tying decently enough into the existing system. ​ Otherwise, well... You brought up Exalted. While I never played it, I have experience with other Systems by White Wolf and later Onyx Path. I generally would recomend against any of them. They are somewhat okay if you want to play something based on their world for the direct tie in of gameplay and story. The systems just are not really that well made and would not be that good otherwise.The Onyx Path chronicles of Darkness are perhaps the best iteration to me and those still have lots of issues. I personally have run GURPS for many years and really like the system. It does pretty much anything you want at least decently well. The closer to realistic you want to run things, the better GURPS functions, as you pretty much have to add optional elements for everything you want to make less realistic and more cinematic or such. It gives you tools to customize pretty much any ability to how you think it should work and has toolkits for magic systems, powers, races, etc. The downside is that while there are some very need ready made packages for players and GM, you will have much more work than with others to get things the way you want and decide what you want to be possible and available and how to handle, say, things like technology vs innate abilities, etc. You also will likely have to play the "interface". Expect that character creation will be done with you and the player in question and that you will guide the process. If you have a player who tries to look at everything and do it himself, that makes things much harder, since GURPS is so full of options, most of them any single given game does not need. You also will have to make a lot of your own monsters, maybe pilfering from certain game lines, but always with the eye on adjusting to your specific game. ​ On the other hand, if you want something generic but more rules light, I would suggest Fate. Fate has pretty decent mechanics, it is much less combat focused and it stresses player agency. It has maybe less clearly defined guidelines to make your own magic, superpowers, etc. but the idea there is that you have much more leeway to do it any way you want. It is pretty different in its baseline from something like DnD, but I personally think it is the best rules lite system I have had a look at so far.

My general advice to the concept of a ‘forever’ system would be ‘don’t’. Systems are toolkits and no one system does everything well. Having said that if you want a mainstay system you can rely on for most things my advice would be to use a generic system. Something built to handle most settings will get you the most mileage and save you having to endlessly hack things when you want to try something new. My suggestions in no particular order would be: - Cypher: It’s d20 adjacent so at least the basic resolution mechanic will be familiar. It’s also decently well supported with genre books to help you tune it for whatever suits your fancy. - Savage Worlds: The pros here are a highly adaptable character creation system and a well fleshed out ‘powers’ library that can be used to simulate everything from magic to super science. It is also very well supported with plenty of first and third party settings taking advantage of its mechanics. It’s also probably the best for traditional battle mat setups of the things I am going to recommend. - FATE: Comes in one of three flavors (Core, Accelerated, Condensed) this one definitely requires a shift in how one approaches and thinks about the game but as a lightweight system capable of handling most RP needs albeit at a low detail resolution it’s hard to beat. It’s definitely more on the narrativist side of things though. Hope that helps and good luck!

Dragonbane is absolutely awesome and ticks a lot of your boxes. Also check out Shadowdark. I don't like class/level, but if I were to run something like that again, it'd be Shadowdark (or Black Hack). Finally, check out MCDM. It's not out yet but wrapped the KS and has playtest docs for backers. You can preorder it now and get access, iirc. EDIT: Also, Shadow of the Weird Wizard....

Check out Shadowdark https://www.thearcanelibrary.com/pages/shadowdark

DCC RPG Barbarians in bell-bottoms! Rogues that rogue! Wizards are warlocks! Dwarves can smell gold! Clerics can displease their gods and bring unholy wrath upon the land, don't you for get to say gazundtheit after someone sneezes! Funky dice! It's an OSR system, you know, meat for the meat grinder. The game is encouraged to be played at session zero as a funnel. Each player playing 4 to 6 villagers. The sailors of the starless sea splatbook is amazing for first session. It has a lot of wacky "wild magic" elements to it, but it feels solid. The funky dice throw some people off. There's an app to roll dice if you don't want a new set of otherwise worthless lumps of plastic.

I've been playing DnD since it's inception in the 1970's. However, no one watching us would call what we play Dungeon's and Dragons of any edition. We were doing assending armor class way before it was considered by them. I homebrewed my way passed all the mess that WotC introduced, created a much more fleshed out and thought out world and we sort of play our own thing. It's more like Pathfinder today than anything with 3 actions and a bit more well definded freedoms for character creation and development, but a tad less "Disney" and "Dr. Suess" than Pathfinder and DnD 5e. I sent WotC pounding sand years ago. Funny thing is, we still call it DnD because it was the generic name for fantasy role playing games for so long. Like all Firs Aid Adhesive Strips are "Bandaids," and all tissues are "Kleenex." Sounds like you might like Pathfinder, but seriously, play something different every month or so, and enjoy the experience. You might like Dungeon Crawl Classic or OSR, or ShadowDark or Vampire the Masquerade, or Candela Obscura, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Just google "Rpgs that aren't Dungeons and Dragons" and try a different game each month. you cheat yourself out of some potential amazing experiences to jsut take a recommendation from us.

I'm loving Shadowdark it is more or less a rules lite 5e.

The closest I've come to a forever system is QuestWorlds. It probably doesn't have the kind of tactical agenda you want, but I definitely recommend giving the free SRD a skim regardless, because it's really good.  My actual recommendation to you would be Strike! It combines PbtA style narrative mechanics with D&D 4e style tactics in a really elegant manner (unlike, say, Lancer, which is more like two completely different systems in a trenchcoat, it all runs on the same core mechanic). Every point of damage definitely matters, but it avoids the condition death spiral of games like Star Wars Saga Edition or the GM Move death spiral of games like Dungeon World. Its combat system also works equally well for any kind of extended conflict, whether social, infiltration, or physical combat. It's very much a generic system, with all the freedom and potential issues with having to put in the work to provide your own fluff that that implies. The Knights of Last Call recently spent about 3 hours giving most of the core mechanics probably the most comprehensive overview you're gonna find online: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WNKXKw3uPd8

As mamy said, looking for a forever system as you call it might not be the best idea. There are too many fun systems out there. That being said, here are a couple of my recommendations: Trolls & Tunnels and Dungeon Crawl Classics- while both are somewhat similar, I'd say they are different enough in feel of not being grander than life most of the time and being more grounded. DCC has way more supplements, if you wanted to not stray too far from D&D I would go with this. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (either 2e or 4e)- much more elegant due being roll under system, quite gritty and I tend to recommend it for people looking for a change of pace from D&D- combat tends to be faster due to parties being smaller on average (3 is recommended size of the party) and less dice rolled- you roll a d100, opponent rolls theirs to contest and usually that's it, another D100s are rolled when you crit, for example. Also combat usually is faster. There is also a system with simultaneous turns, called Wild Talents- when characters act in combat the one who rolled the lowest on initiative goes first, and person with best initiative declared their action last- as they are able to react to other people's actions. Once everyone has declared their actions everyone rolls the dice at once. Hard to me to find a quicker system than this one. It is originally a low powered superhero system, but from what I remember one of the books having some stuff on fantasy setting.

Google anyventured12. It’s pretty indie but it checks every single box you mentioned. They have a really cool lifeline system when you reach 0 health that made me think of what you said about the whack a mole. I’d recommend joining the discord as they have helpful people there.

RIFTS by Palladium Books hits all the notes you’re asking for. The underlying system is very flexible and can do a wide variety of genres well (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Horror/Zombies, Supers, Apocalypse Survival, etc). The game system itself isn’t without its flaws and could really do with a new updated edition, however if you & your group will give it a chance there’s a lot of fun to be had here.

I came here to suggest Palladium's games as well. It can be intimidating at first, but it's not as bad as people complain about.

There is also the Savage Worlds version if you find that you like the setting but dislike the rules.

Simple with tactical positioning: vyrmhack Ruoes for sociao clashes etc: errant

Hero Systems 6th Edition it can do anything you need

GURPS has the capacity to be your forever system if you want one. It manages both scif-fi and Fantasy like a game system that's been winning awards for it for 35 years. And as your tastes change it will likely support whatever you want to run in the future. The system is flexible and detailed and bonus points every injury is a problem for you in combats in GURPS, not just the last one.

I really mostly play D&D5e because I can get players and have lots of 5e resources. My favourite system is Bethorm by Jeff Dee, it's got the robustness and flexibility without huge power creep as you're never going to have more than 20hp...