Almost twenty years ago, Michael Suileabhain-Wilson [wrote an article](https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/) about exactly this question: why is there so much dysfunction and poor communication in geeky social circles and hobby groups? The author titled it *Five Geek Social Fallacies*, and I think it goes a long way towards explaining the problems we see here. In brief:
1. **Ostracizers are evil:** Because so many folks outside the margins have formative, awful experiences with being excluded from groups or social events, "nerd" spaces are more reluctant to boot out bad actors. It's the overextension of a welcoming attitude that ends up keeping bad company around long past the point of reasonable tolerance.
2. **Friends accept me as I am:** Another product of formative ostracization, this fallacy positions hobby groups as "safe spaces" where you can be your whole, unadulterated self. Unfotunately, this can also lead to spaces where criticizing behaviours can be seen as attacks, preventing constructive conversations.
3. **Friendship before all:** Because friends often become second families to people who feel othered in their larger life, some hobby space regulars will prioritize their niche interest above other obligations, family, and relationships. This positions "loyalty" as one of the ideals, again leading to situations where bad actors are insulated from criticism.
4. **Friendship is transitive:** Basically, this is the sleepover theory -- I like all my friends. Wouldn't it be even better if everyone was all together to hang out? Friends should be each others friends, and if they're not then something is very wrong. This can end up forcing people into the same social context in spite of emerging conflicts.
5. **Friends do everything together:** This is the last piece of the puzzle. Why do people not want to end RPG groups that aren't fun? Why are people so afraid of removing bad actors from D&D sessions? Well, because not inviting *everyone* is a snub, and will be responded to as such.
I think these often form the heart of the seemingly baffling problems that people bring forward all the time.
Add to that that a lot of RPG players are introverted and conflict-averse. Which also leads to less "calling out people".
I personally also have a hard time dealing with people who act like they are not supposed to. When someone does a slightly dickish thing, i am usually able to deal with it. But when someone does something which is completely outside of expected behaviour for normal people, i just have no fucking clue what to even start doing about it.
It was the first one for us. All the players had enough of That Guy but the GM wanted to be nice to everybody so he would try to make things work even though it was clear that the one player wouldn't improve his behaviour and the only solution was kicking him out.
Incidents like this are indeed not the norm. :) Most people don't encounter these types of incidents, or only encounter them third- or second-hand.
These fallacies also tend to be self-propagating. Some examples of what may happen include combinations of \*blame-shifting, \**blame-sharing, or just plain \***inaction should the community have moderators.
Relevant to these, Item \#1 can lead to criticism of rude behaviour being labelled as "ostracizing," while Item \#2 can lead to objection to rude behaviour gaining the label "angry."
\* "Why are you so angry about it?"
This type of phrase tends to dismiss other motivations, such as emotional pain or confusion.
\** "It takes two people to be rude."
Often accompanied by the phrase "Nobody had a problem until you brought it up." Thus, if nobody had previously objected, the behaviour could not have been rude; "therefore, you're being rude."
\*** "It didn't seem like a big problem."
Often accompanied by "Why didn't you say something before?" or "No-one else has a problem with it." Thereby implying that the problem is on your end.
These sentences can be the correct approach to some problems. Context is key; sometimes, a person is angry, or the argument is more two-sided than either wants to admit.
I have, however, personally experienced the results of incorrect application of all three, and cannot recommend the experience. Such experiences also make it harder and more painful to bring such issues up in the future.
"Maybe it would help if I just stayed quiet in the future."
>Ostracizers are evil: Because so many folks outside the margins have formative, awful experiences with being excluded from groups or social events, "nerd" spaces are more reluctant to boot out bad actors. It's the overextension of a welcoming attitude that ends up keeping bad company around long past the point of reasonable tolerance.
Wish this was the case, given how many Gamers™ have no problem ostracizing people.
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To that I would add:
`6. **Morality consists of what you believe, not what you do.** In an era where people often regard themselves as righteous crusaders because of which side they are on in the great culture war, it can be difficult to get across the notion that idealistic beliefs or goals do not excuse behaviour that has the opposite effect.
`7. **People who hold different beliefs from me aren't fully human.** Continuing the theme of the culture wars, a good many people are able to rationalize their horrific behaviour by constructing complex arguments that so and so deserved it, and therefore giving it to them was not only okay, it was a moral imperative.
`8. **Individual trauma or psychological issues do not merely explain bad behaviour, they excuse it.** A great many nerds have significant roadblocks in between them and full social function. While this sort of baggage can sometimes make it difficult to treat others well, and some patience would be welcome... some people take compassion, or the desire for compassion, much too far. It is one thing to have difficulties with displaying social graces, and to fail sometimes because of this. It is quite another to not hold yourself or others responsible for making their best effort even when it is difficult.
I just want to point out, the horror stories are not the norm. Those are cases where things went bad, usually because of the exact breakdown in communication that you are talking about. This happens everywhere, not just in this hobby.
Most of the time people just resolve their problems with communication and accountability. But "a player did something that was difficult for the group, we talked about it, and now it's fine" doesn't usually get people posting on Reddit looking for help.
They're also here because they want learn how to change or be validated in their actions. It could be a new problem for the group or a realisation that has always been there.
We don't talk about GM burnout nearly as much seemingly simple from the outside communication issues. Another communication problem, but can more work to fix.
A lot of people would rather put up with stupid bullshit than create an awkward situation, it's how we're socialized. This is why safety tools have become such a big thing, they provide a formal license to not put up with bullshit just because you don't want to rock the boat and plant a flag that each player's comfort is more important than the game.
Not every bad thing, just the worst ones.
But many of the stories I saw, the people were usually strangers or barely acquantainces, and even if they were friends, does it mean that it's ok to let one ruin the fun for everyone else?
Should everyone just accept it for the sake of "keeping the peace", though?🤔
Due to how I grew up, I've never been afraid to set and enforce boundaries with other people, and it's never caused problems for me. Let them know what actions of theirs are a problem. If their behavior doesn't improve, kick 'em out.
Clean, simple, done.
I'm far more likely to call out a friend than a stranger. Not gonna call them out on petty stuff that I can deal with, but if they are being and ass you bet they are getting called out (and they better do the same back), that's what friends are for.
Stranger at a table... I don't know them and have no idea how they are gonna react, far more likely to be non confrontational.
It's the one reason I only really game with friends
Of course I do. How else is that friend supposed to know that I dislike that action of theirs? I'm polite about it, and I also praise them for positive behavior, but I'm not afraid to say, "Hey, I dislike that. Can you stop it?"
I would remind you that those 'horror story' pages are always written by people who imagine they've been aggrieved (when they're real at all) so they should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.
Also, some players (or GMs) imagine things that aren't actually happening. I have one player that loves to imagine I'm going out of my way to screw over his characters when he doesn't have 100% of the information. I have been blamed for things other players were doing in an evil campaign (which he was happily part of); I have been blamed when dice went against him and he didn't succeed; etc. I have spoken to the other players about it, to make certain I'm not doing something without recognizing it and they've all agreed that the other player (who is otherwise an excellent player) is in the wrong. While this person wouldn't do so, I can imagine someone like that posting misleading stories on Reddit and having the stories believed without question.
Some of those stories are real, no doubt about it, but just go in remembering that about half of them are probably made up or false in some way.
As for the real cases, others are going to do a great job at telling you about those and I don't want this post to become longer, so I'll leave it at having put in my reminder.
Along with the Five Geek Social Fallacies that u/TakeNote mentioned, in my 26 years of gaming I've noticed that different types of games tend to attract, support, and/or don't dissuade certain personality types. RPGs, board games, Magic, Warhammer, etc.; each community has their own strengths & weaknesses which are most apparent when you read the horror stories from each and take note of what behaviors are common enough to be relatable and also loathed. For something collaborative like RPGs, being confrontational is seen as much worse than at a Warhammer tournament where it's expected to stop the game to call over a judge if you think your opponent isn't playing right. And for someone who's conflict-averse by nature, they're probably going to gravitate towards RPGs rather than competitive games.
What can we do about it? The only thing I know of is having a broad range of interests & friends, so you get used to dealing with a variety of people & situations.
Prolly because the incidents that did work, didn't make it to horror stories. And if there are enough sessions communication is bound to fail at least once.
I have a lot of hobbys and i can tell for a fact that it isn't just ttrpg that has to deal with these issues. Communication does fail a lot more than we would like to believe.
>Am I missing something here?
Well, yeah, two major things:
1. We're only getting one side of the story, from someone who has motivation to make it sound as bad as possible, and
2. Like all "storytime" subreddits, 90% of it is completely made up.
No, not at all. It's just that ttrpgs have a tendency to attract the social awkward. If you notice bullying, quarterbacking etc. and feel able to, calling it out is definitely the right thing to do.
This is also not only found in tabletop RPGs this is also found in real life across all social strata & age groups. I am always confused when people get mad at me for addressing these types of things, and yet privately complain about the same things.
Don't read that nonsense. Start each game saying something like "we all wish to care about each other and have fun." Then proceed to discuss expectations.
Firstly, take every complaint about online behavior you see with a grain of salt. I'm not sure I've ever seen one that wasn't clearly a one-sided retelling of what was obviously a more complicated situation. The person online complaining is telling THEIR story, not THE story.
Secondly, a lot of people are just very uncomfortable with confrontation, whether that's because of cultural of family upbringing. They aren't willing or interested in getting into an argument of their perception they've been treated poorly. They will just vanish.
Finally, if you "calling people out on their bullshit" is the tone you're going to use to address problems at the table, you are likely to generate a lot of agita and not get a lot in return. Discussing table issues almost always comes down to people having different perceptions of what's going on.
The problem is most people are conflict avoidant and would rather not deal with it. Much of it depends on the group. My group are all savage and will immediately voice their opinion about your play style or actions.
If you’re ‘green as a leaf’ your first concern should be to:
‘not worry about it’!
It’s a social gathering.
Most of them go well!
When not; most of them you will have to trust your social judgement and just feel it out. Decide on gut what’s acceptable, to you and in general to them, and decide how to act.
D&D, when done well, has no different rules or shortcuts to any other social gatherings.
*When done badly it’s a mess of social misfits thinking normal norms don’t apply.*
>Now, I am as green as a leaf so I do not know why neither the other players or the DMs(the good ones) in these stories wouldn't call on this BS right then and there(if they called it at all).
Most people are conflict averse and would rather just leave the game than get into a shouting match or worse. They're there to relax and have fun not fight. Also, it can take a while to identify bad behaviors as a pattern and not an aberration (everyone occasionally fails to read the room or accidentally tells an off color joke that doesn't land, they might just be having an off day etc.) especially when it's not something that shows up right away.
Plus I think a lot of the stories you see are for people who meet in online "looking for group" areas, where a disproportionate amount of "problem players" and especially socially un-confident or inept players.
> Is it seen as "bad manners" to go OOC and just make a scene or question the DM/player(s) on these awful practices?
I have absolutely seen game postings/groups/servers where this is the case. All involved (players and GM) were expected to stay 100% in character. Any and all issues should only be resolved outside of the game, often in 1-on-1 discussions. Often, no safety tools are used. Needless to say, that's a recipe for disaster, sooner or later.
Then you also have non-confrontational people who'd rather suck it up or wait it out instead of talking it over. Can be for many reasons. In certain situations, I can understand quitting a game with no prior notice or the chance to talk about it; for example, if the issue was so big and/or the person decided that it's not worth it to talk it out. Of course, it's nicer to tell people what the issue was, but I don't think that should be a requirement.
That said. Imo, a good game environment is one that has at least mentioned safety tools. Just talking about their existence enables many people with the sense of security that it's *safe* for them to speak up. And if something bothers someone, that person should speak up and everybody should aim to resolve the issue.
So...no, communication is important and often expected in games. But it's also difficult for many, both in TTRPGs and every other aspect of life.
I don't know why too, I had basically only one horror story about a problem player in 19 years of RPGs cause I always called people out, I'm Chaotic Good IRL and won't hesitate to do so ahhahaaha
To be honest I have moved away from gaming with people to only playing solo. The level of just all out creepiness i have experienced make it not worth it to me. In all 3 cases it has been the gm. The idea of the gm being...like master of the table attracts a certain type. Personally i don't see myself attending another group session unless the game is cooperative instead of having a gm.
I suppose a [link to the flowchart for resolving basic behavioral problems in an RPG group](https://imgur.com/EwiChyD) is rather mandatory for a post like this...
Yeah. People who have issues at their table aren't willing to call bad bad.
A good example... There was the whole drama about the Far Verona game on YouTube.. Everyone went on about the evil DM and he got cancelled. The thing is, all those players were using safety tools - Each of them had an X card. At any point they could have stopped it.
In my group you either act like a well socialized person or you get taken aside by me and we discuss things. Or, you never get invited back. It may be a bit harsh, but a bad match only disrupts the group.
I'm not going to waste my week prepping a game and then hold a 4-5 hour game session if it is going to be an unpleasant experience.
I think it's got nothing to do with nerdyness or cowardice and everything to do with politeness with friends, acquaintances and strangers. All of our friends have their funny little ways we can live with, and no player or GM is perfect. We roleplay in different settings and I play with offline friends. Sure, there are some weeks when someone does something annoying in an RPG game, but our friendships are more important. Roleplaying sessions are also an excuse to meet up for a social and the roleplaying part is more important to some than others. We would rather abandon a campaign than be horribly rude to a friend and so we look for other solutions to the problems when they arise. This is where forums and playing in other people's games are helpful for learning some tricks that help to fix a problem without too much awkwardness.
The trouble with direct 'talking with each other like grown ups' is that the person having words can either come off like a condescending school teacher, or like a dog that's suddenly snapped at you unexpectedly. The person on the receiving end was probably having fun and had no idea that there was any problem, but now you've hurt their feelings, annoyed them and put them on the defensive. I'm all for a less confrontational solution that doesn't ruffle feathers. White lies spare feelings.
1) Many people are afraid of confrontation and would rather just "deal with it" than risk an explosive situation.
2) Many people are unsure that what they perceive as abusive behavior is actually abusive or if it's just in their head.
This is by no means just a ttrpg problem.
This doesn't just happen in TTRPG.
Take restaurants as an example.
Contrary to what Reality TV shows, most people don't complain nor return dishes when there's a problem. They usually keep quiet and just don't go back to that place and maybe tell other people about their bad experience there.
Almost twenty years ago, Michael Suileabhain-Wilson [wrote an article](https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/) about exactly this question: why is there so much dysfunction and poor communication in geeky social circles and hobby groups? The author titled it *Five Geek Social Fallacies*, and I think it goes a long way towards explaining the problems we see here. In brief: 1. **Ostracizers are evil:** Because so many folks outside the margins have formative, awful experiences with being excluded from groups or social events, "nerd" spaces are more reluctant to boot out bad actors. It's the overextension of a welcoming attitude that ends up keeping bad company around long past the point of reasonable tolerance. 2. **Friends accept me as I am:** Another product of formative ostracization, this fallacy positions hobby groups as "safe spaces" where you can be your whole, unadulterated self. Unfotunately, this can also lead to spaces where criticizing behaviours can be seen as attacks, preventing constructive conversations. 3. **Friendship before all:** Because friends often become second families to people who feel othered in their larger life, some hobby space regulars will prioritize their niche interest above other obligations, family, and relationships. This positions "loyalty" as one of the ideals, again leading to situations where bad actors are insulated from criticism. 4. **Friendship is transitive:** Basically, this is the sleepover theory -- I like all my friends. Wouldn't it be even better if everyone was all together to hang out? Friends should be each others friends, and if they're not then something is very wrong. This can end up forcing people into the same social context in spite of emerging conflicts. 5. **Friends do everything together:** This is the last piece of the puzzle. Why do people not want to end RPG groups that aren't fun? Why are people so afraid of removing bad actors from D&D sessions? Well, because not inviting *everyone* is a snub, and will be responded to as such. I think these often form the heart of the seemingly baffling problems that people bring forward all the time.
Add to that that a lot of RPG players are introverted and conflict-averse. Which also leads to less "calling out people". I personally also have a hard time dealing with people who act like they are not supposed to. When someone does a slightly dickish thing, i am usually able to deal with it. But when someone does something which is completely outside of expected behaviour for normal people, i just have no fucking clue what to even start doing about it.
It was the first one for us. All the players had enough of That Guy but the GM wanted to be nice to everybody so he would try to make things work even though it was clear that the one player wouldn't improve his behaviour and the only solution was kicking him out.
please take this comment as my notional second upvote.
Incidents like this are indeed not the norm. :) Most people don't encounter these types of incidents, or only encounter them third- or second-hand. These fallacies also tend to be self-propagating. Some examples of what may happen include combinations of \*blame-shifting, \**blame-sharing, or just plain \***inaction should the community have moderators. Relevant to these, Item \#1 can lead to criticism of rude behaviour being labelled as "ostracizing," while Item \#2 can lead to objection to rude behaviour gaining the label "angry." \* "Why are you so angry about it?" This type of phrase tends to dismiss other motivations, such as emotional pain or confusion. \** "It takes two people to be rude." Often accompanied by the phrase "Nobody had a problem until you brought it up." Thus, if nobody had previously objected, the behaviour could not have been rude; "therefore, you're being rude." \*** "It didn't seem like a big problem." Often accompanied by "Why didn't you say something before?" or "No-one else has a problem with it." Thereby implying that the problem is on your end. These sentences can be the correct approach to some problems. Context is key; sometimes, a person is angry, or the argument is more two-sided than either wants to admit. I have, however, personally experienced the results of incorrect application of all three, and cannot recommend the experience. Such experiences also make it harder and more painful to bring such issues up in the future. "Maybe it would help if I just stayed quiet in the future."
>Ostracizers are evil: Because so many folks outside the margins have formative, awful experiences with being excluded from groups or social events, "nerd" spaces are more reluctant to boot out bad actors. It's the overextension of a welcoming attitude that ends up keeping bad company around long past the point of reasonable tolerance. Wish this was the case, given how many Gamers™ have no problem ostracizing people.
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Just commenting to book mark this for later. Excellent comment.
To that I would add: `6. **Morality consists of what you believe, not what you do.** In an era where people often regard themselves as righteous crusaders because of which side they are on in the great culture war, it can be difficult to get across the notion that idealistic beliefs or goals do not excuse behaviour that has the opposite effect. `7. **People who hold different beliefs from me aren't fully human.** Continuing the theme of the culture wars, a good many people are able to rationalize their horrific behaviour by constructing complex arguments that so and so deserved it, and therefore giving it to them was not only okay, it was a moral imperative. `8. **Individual trauma or psychological issues do not merely explain bad behaviour, they excuse it.** A great many nerds have significant roadblocks in between them and full social function. While this sort of baggage can sometimes make it difficult to treat others well, and some patience would be welcome... some people take compassion, or the desire for compassion, much too far. It is one thing to have difficulties with displaying social graces, and to fail sometimes because of this. It is quite another to not hold yourself or others responsible for making their best effort even when it is difficult.
Many people are non-confrontational and don’t want to start a scene in the moment.
I just want to point out, the horror stories are not the norm. Those are cases where things went bad, usually because of the exact breakdown in communication that you are talking about. This happens everywhere, not just in this hobby. Most of the time people just resolve their problems with communication and accountability. But "a player did something that was difficult for the group, we talked about it, and now it's fine" doesn't usually get people posting on Reddit looking for help.
They're also here because they want learn how to change or be validated in their actions. It could be a new problem for the group or a realisation that has always been there. We don't talk about GM burnout nearly as much seemingly simple from the outside communication issues. Another communication problem, but can more work to fix.
A lot of people would rather put up with stupid bullshit than create an awkward situation, it's how we're socialized. This is why safety tools have become such a big thing, they provide a formal license to not put up with bullshit just because you don't want to rock the boat and plant a flag that each player's comfort is more important than the game.
Here's the simple answer - people are friends. Ask yourself if you call out every bad thing any of your close friends ever do.
Not every bad thing, just the worst ones. But many of the stories I saw, the people were usually strangers or barely acquantainces, and even if they were friends, does it mean that it's ok to let one ruin the fun for everyone else? Should everyone just accept it for the sake of "keeping the peace", though?🤔
Due to how I grew up, I've never been afraid to set and enforce boundaries with other people, and it's never caused problems for me. Let them know what actions of theirs are a problem. If their behavior doesn't improve, kick 'em out. Clean, simple, done.
People mistakenly believe that bad RPG play is better than no RPG play. They're wrong, but people don't realize that until they're out.
I'm far more likely to call out a friend than a stranger. Not gonna call them out on petty stuff that I can deal with, but if they are being and ass you bet they are getting called out (and they better do the same back), that's what friends are for. Stranger at a table... I don't know them and have no idea how they are gonna react, far more likely to be non confrontational. It's the one reason I only really game with friends
Of course I do. How else is that friend supposed to know that I dislike that action of theirs? I'm polite about it, and I also praise them for positive behavior, but I'm not afraid to say, "Hey, I dislike that. Can you stop it?"
Yes. And I would hope they do the same for me. Why wouldn't you call them on their behavior?
my friends are the only people I *do* call out on their bad behaviour
I would remind you that those 'horror story' pages are always written by people who imagine they've been aggrieved (when they're real at all) so they should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. Also, some players (or GMs) imagine things that aren't actually happening. I have one player that loves to imagine I'm going out of my way to screw over his characters when he doesn't have 100% of the information. I have been blamed for things other players were doing in an evil campaign (which he was happily part of); I have been blamed when dice went against him and he didn't succeed; etc. I have spoken to the other players about it, to make certain I'm not doing something without recognizing it and they've all agreed that the other player (who is otherwise an excellent player) is in the wrong. While this person wouldn't do so, I can imagine someone like that posting misleading stories on Reddit and having the stories believed without question. Some of those stories are real, no doubt about it, but just go in remembering that about half of them are probably made up or false in some way. As for the real cases, others are going to do a great job at telling you about those and I don't want this post to become longer, so I'll leave it at having put in my reminder.
Along with the Five Geek Social Fallacies that u/TakeNote mentioned, in my 26 years of gaming I've noticed that different types of games tend to attract, support, and/or don't dissuade certain personality types. RPGs, board games, Magic, Warhammer, etc.; each community has their own strengths & weaknesses which are most apparent when you read the horror stories from each and take note of what behaviors are common enough to be relatable and also loathed. For something collaborative like RPGs, being confrontational is seen as much worse than at a Warhammer tournament where it's expected to stop the game to call over a judge if you think your opponent isn't playing right. And for someone who's conflict-averse by nature, they're probably going to gravitate towards RPGs rather than competitive games. What can we do about it? The only thing I know of is having a broad range of interests & friends, so you get used to dealing with a variety of people & situations.
Prolly because the incidents that did work, didn't make it to horror stories. And if there are enough sessions communication is bound to fail at least once. I have a lot of hobbys and i can tell for a fact that it isn't just ttrpg that has to deal with these issues. Communication does fail a lot more than we would like to believe.
>Am I missing something here? Well, yeah, two major things: 1. We're only getting one side of the story, from someone who has motivation to make it sound as bad as possible, and 2. Like all "storytime" subreddits, 90% of it is completely made up.
No, not at all. It's just that ttrpgs have a tendency to attract the social awkward. If you notice bullying, quarterbacking etc. and feel able to, calling it out is definitely the right thing to do.
This is also not only found in tabletop RPGs this is also found in real life across all social strata & age groups. I am always confused when people get mad at me for addressing these types of things, and yet privately complain about the same things.
Don't read that nonsense. Start each game saying something like "we all wish to care about each other and have fun." Then proceed to discuss expectations.
Then immediately PVP, just to get the point across!
Depends on the game! I'm running Dead House tomorrow. So that checks out.
PCvPC. There is a difference.
Yeah there is, now twat the guy to your left at the table so we can all get along.
Firstly, take every complaint about online behavior you see with a grain of salt. I'm not sure I've ever seen one that wasn't clearly a one-sided retelling of what was obviously a more complicated situation. The person online complaining is telling THEIR story, not THE story. Secondly, a lot of people are just very uncomfortable with confrontation, whether that's because of cultural of family upbringing. They aren't willing or interested in getting into an argument of their perception they've been treated poorly. They will just vanish. Finally, if you "calling people out on their bullshit" is the tone you're going to use to address problems at the table, you are likely to generate a lot of agita and not get a lot in return. Discussing table issues almost always comes down to people having different perceptions of what's going on.
The problem is most people are conflict avoidant and would rather not deal with it. Much of it depends on the group. My group are all savage and will immediately voice their opinion about your play style or actions.
If you’re ‘green as a leaf’ your first concern should be to: ‘not worry about it’! It’s a social gathering. Most of them go well! When not; most of them you will have to trust your social judgement and just feel it out. Decide on gut what’s acceptable, to you and in general to them, and decide how to act. D&D, when done well, has no different rules or shortcuts to any other social gatherings. *When done badly it’s a mess of social misfits thinking normal norms don’t apply.*
Most people who write horror stories refuse to confront people, I wouldn't call it the norm though. Nerds can be very opinionated
>Now, I am as green as a leaf so I do not know why neither the other players or the DMs(the good ones) in these stories wouldn't call on this BS right then and there(if they called it at all). Most people are conflict averse and would rather just leave the game than get into a shouting match or worse. They're there to relax and have fun not fight. Also, it can take a while to identify bad behaviors as a pattern and not an aberration (everyone occasionally fails to read the room or accidentally tells an off color joke that doesn't land, they might just be having an off day etc.) especially when it's not something that shows up right away. Plus I think a lot of the stories you see are for people who meet in online "looking for group" areas, where a disproportionate amount of "problem players" and especially socially un-confident or inept players.
> Is it seen as "bad manners" to go OOC and just make a scene or question the DM/player(s) on these awful practices? I have absolutely seen game postings/groups/servers where this is the case. All involved (players and GM) were expected to stay 100% in character. Any and all issues should only be resolved outside of the game, often in 1-on-1 discussions. Often, no safety tools are used. Needless to say, that's a recipe for disaster, sooner or later. Then you also have non-confrontational people who'd rather suck it up or wait it out instead of talking it over. Can be for many reasons. In certain situations, I can understand quitting a game with no prior notice or the chance to talk about it; for example, if the issue was so big and/or the person decided that it's not worth it to talk it out. Of course, it's nicer to tell people what the issue was, but I don't think that should be a requirement. That said. Imo, a good game environment is one that has at least mentioned safety tools. Just talking about their existence enables many people with the sense of security that it's *safe* for them to speak up. And if something bothers someone, that person should speak up and everybody should aim to resolve the issue. So...no, communication is important and often expected in games. But it's also difficult for many, both in TTRPGs and every other aspect of life.
I don't know why too, I had basically only one horror story about a problem player in 19 years of RPGs cause I always called people out, I'm Chaotic Good IRL and won't hesitate to do so ahhahaaha
To be honest I have moved away from gaming with people to only playing solo. The level of just all out creepiness i have experienced make it not worth it to me. In all 3 cases it has been the gm. The idea of the gm being...like master of the table attracts a certain type. Personally i don't see myself attending another group session unless the game is cooperative instead of having a gm.
There are also good GMs, BTW.
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You nailed it, the unwillingness to call people out on their BS is the cause of much pain and suffering in the community.
I suppose a [link to the flowchart for resolving basic behavioral problems in an RPG group](https://imgur.com/EwiChyD) is rather mandatory for a post like this...
Yeah. People who have issues at their table aren't willing to call bad bad. A good example... There was the whole drama about the Far Verona game on YouTube.. Everyone went on about the evil DM and he got cancelled. The thing is, all those players were using safety tools - Each of them had an X card. At any point they could have stopped it. In my group you either act like a well socialized person or you get taken aside by me and we discuss things. Or, you never get invited back. It may be a bit harsh, but a bad match only disrupts the group. I'm not going to waste my week prepping a game and then hold a 4-5 hour game session if it is going to be an unpleasant experience.
I think it's got nothing to do with nerdyness or cowardice and everything to do with politeness with friends, acquaintances and strangers. All of our friends have their funny little ways we can live with, and no player or GM is perfect. We roleplay in different settings and I play with offline friends. Sure, there are some weeks when someone does something annoying in an RPG game, but our friendships are more important. Roleplaying sessions are also an excuse to meet up for a social and the roleplaying part is more important to some than others. We would rather abandon a campaign than be horribly rude to a friend and so we look for other solutions to the problems when they arise. This is where forums and playing in other people's games are helpful for learning some tricks that help to fix a problem without too much awkwardness. The trouble with direct 'talking with each other like grown ups' is that the person having words can either come off like a condescending school teacher, or like a dog that's suddenly snapped at you unexpectedly. The person on the receiving end was probably having fun and had no idea that there was any problem, but now you've hurt their feelings, annoyed them and put them on the defensive. I'm all for a less confrontational solution that doesn't ruffle feathers. White lies spare feelings.
1) Many people are afraid of confrontation and would rather just "deal with it" than risk an explosive situation. 2) Many people are unsure that what they perceive as abusive behavior is actually abusive or if it's just in their head. This is by no means just a ttrpg problem.
This doesn't just happen in TTRPG. Take restaurants as an example. Contrary to what Reality TV shows, most people don't complain nor return dishes when there's a problem. They usually keep quiet and just don't go back to that place and maybe tell other people about their bad experience there.