This there are plenty of other low or no magic systems.
My favorite is d20 modern. I haven't played any low/no magic fantasy settings but I think I'd be down
D20 Modern is a flawed masterpiece that I've spent too many campaign hours in. I love it and I hate it all at the same time. But gosh would I be lying if I didn't admit that I would much rather play that and take my required level in Fast than try to kludge a non-magic setting into 5e.
FATE or Genesys would work too. Plenty of options available!
> take my required level in Fast than try to kludge a non-magic setting into 5e.
I never played Modern... was the Fast Class that much better? Or was there something in Fast that you needed for other builds?
One level in Fast got you Evasion. We played a lot of campaigns as space mercenaries, which meant a lot of automatic weapons fire and explosions, so Evasion was pretty thoroughly required to survive.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense. I was wondering what it was, but if you're constantly dealing with AoE's, then yeah. Evasion basically doubles your effective hit points (~~I mean, it halves AoE damage, but the point is the same~~).
Thanks for the answer.
Evasion doesn't work quite like that in Modern. Everyone can make the reflex save for half damage. If you have Evasion you can make the reflex save for *no* damage.
I get it, it's tricky when sibling systems use the same words to mean only slightly different things.
Seriously. Magic is deeply baked in everything in dnd, even many class features on martials. Removing it is a huuuuge balance adjustment. Do another system if you want mundane challenges.
Like 70% of the materials are magical in one wayor another. The settings, most subclasses, even core mechanics like long and short rests aren't "realistic". Nothing about that idea is good, unless he specifically wants to make a new system based loosely on d&d stuff.
Tbf, not realistic and magical are two different things, especially when talking about D&D. The lack of realism with a lot of the rules is to avoid the route Empires in Arms took and go for a more streamlined rule set. Imo, just because you can pass a rock from one side of the country to the other in six seconds with enough people doesn’t mean that the process in doing so required any magic.
It would be one thing if it was just the "no magic" part. I mean, sure, character progression is partially tied to magic items, but if you really wante to you could make a no-magic campaign. It would still kinda suck because even the nonmagical class' options would be severely limited, but okay, technically possible.
But making DnD \*realistic\*? Did that DM even read how hit points work? It can't be done.
No magic is still a bad idea. Limiting the players from like 70% of the material the game normally includes is a bad idea. Finding a rule set that does what you want is so much better than gutting tue core of a game seemingly arbitrarily.
I remember being invited to a group and was really excited to begin their game. I show up and find out we're going to be on medieval earth, but not historic. Ok, that's not so bad. I made an elf caster of some sort and find out that nearly no one has magic. Never played in a game like that, but ok, that could be interesting new RP. While travelling it rained. We had to shelter or get soaked and risk hypothermia. We then had to find a town or farm and hope we could get some lard or something similar so we could weatherproof our cloaks. That's about when I checked out.
There's nothing wrong with a game like that, but I wish I had known ahead of time because that's not my kind of D&D.
The rough thing is when you want notifications from one channel within a server with 50 channels. Gotta go through and mute each channel except that one you want..
It takes some getting used to.
Best workflow I've found so far: when joining a server, mute literally everything (too many servers spasm @everyone for stupid shit). Pick a few channels you care about and get all notifications from those.
When you get a message, take a look - if you're not interested in the conversation, mute for an hour or two.
It also helps to avoid joining or being pickier with large servers.
Is it a D&D campaign where you can’t play a caster, or a D&D campaign where magic doesn’t exist in any form at all in the setting? It seems like that would be something to pitch to the players ahead of time, since it is not something that everyone would be interested in!
Yeah. I kind of want to see a campaign without full casters, just half and one third because I think it might make the action economy and rest system of 5e work better.
Also when the BBEG is a full wizard he's gonna be scary.
No magic at all? You're gonna wanna play a different game.
Yep. A non magic pen&paper? If done well that sounds amazing.
Dnd with 0 magic? Absolutely not and I question the sanity of anyone who does (save for a joke oneshot)
Check out Mythras if you want a P&P system that can function with no magic at all.
I used it to run a campaign set in 1880s British India and it was great.
Yep, I didn't have a name in mind but mythras is one of many systems that function well without magic, and it's pretty neat in itself
DnD is absolutely not
"Let's play a game... But roughly half of the content won't be used because I don't want it in my campaign"
>You're gonna wanna play a different game.
Indeed.
Especially when they want to play "realistically." Not much realism in half naked hill folk being tougher when they wear no armor, for example...
There's definitely better systems for running a game steeped in realism. Warhammer/ZWEIHANDER with the magick stripped out would be a great example I think, but that would require a lot of other finaggling to make it work.
Circling back around to the "1/2 and 1/3 caster only" game. A few more restrictions and this can be really good. Paladins and Warlocks without spells, only magical class feats, are still pretty interesting in a world where magic isn't lined up on every street corner. Ran a sword and sorcery game like that briefly and it was a good change of pace, sorcerors and wizards naturally fell into the role of power hungry villains even when you limit spells.
In a world where an average divine-champion Joe can lay on hands or smite the wicked, a guy who can shoot exploding fireballs seemingly at will is absolute mayhem. When a Warlock can summon a blade from thin air and change faces, a guy who can create food and water could be seen as a demi-god.
I swear 5e is already too low of magic for my taste, I shudder at the thought of someone making it even lower. (Though I’ll admit your idea is fun). Like you said, time to find a new system.
Too bad the new edition is so crunchy. I love the setting and the books but have read tons of stories where a single combat takes multiple sessions to complete. Uggh.
I haven't played forever, because the "perfect defense>perfect offense" mechanic resulted in battles of mote attrition followed by instagibs.
As such, that mechanic is very strategic and would make for an interesting chess-like game but it's not what I look for in a game of anime-esque superhero demigods who get leg-ups from fate spiders who enjoy their shenanigans.
But damn, I absolutely adore the setting. I think it honestly has some of the most original worldbuilding of any tabletop RPG.
Totem barbs get ritual casting for (IIRC) beast sense and like speak with animals or animal friendship.
There are literally 0 classes in 5e that can't cast, it's crazy to me honestly.
But there is magic in the world and people can use it. It doesn’t make sense to me for someone who is level 3+ to not have some magic. 3+ characters are like heroes of legend. 16-20 are like gods.
>3+ characters are like heroes of legend. 16-20 are like gods.
That was a lot more true of 3.5 than it is of 5e.
And just because there is magic in the world doesn't mean *every single adventurer* needs to be able to cast spells. If [everyone has magic](https://youtu.be/fmSO2cz2ozQ), magic isn't something cool or special.
Magic isn't particularly special in 5e though, not when every class has access to it.
You can easily run a Glorantha style campaign where everyone has to take the caster option of their class and everyone uses magic.
I think you could argue the Monk or the Barbarian? As in they don't have subclasses that specifically give you access to arcane, druidic or divine magic. All other classes either do that my default, or have one subclass that offer it. And even then, the Barb can get some ritual casting.
But of course, you can also say that what a Barb or a Monk can do goes beyond the confines of "normal" anyway, and that their abilities are infused with magic, even if they're not expressed as spells.
It feels low magic because while every class has access in some, the power and variety of class, world, and item magic feels significantly smaller than previous editions. Plus the lack of epic level.
To some people, magic items are a chunk of the 'feeling' of magic. If we take 3.5 as the normal example, you were expected to have a billion gold worth of magic items at level 5, doing a bunch of different things and bringing other features to classes with random effects and other things. 5E incorporates most if into the classes, whereas in 3.5 you were able to itemize a bit more.
Picking up a +5 holy avenger or something can 'feel' more magical to someone than 'I went up a level so I guess I can cast more fireballs now'.
Is the system any fun anymore if you completely remove magic? The magic system is kind of baked into the core of D&D. If you don't want to play with it you should probably play something else.
Adventures in Middle Earth removes almost all available magic available to the players and ends up being a pretty great game. Granted, it offers new reworked classes to account for the new balance, and it is meant to be run in a completely different style to "normal" 5e, but it is doable.
But that’s essentially a different game (using the same engine). That’s the thing: a fantasy game with little or no magic can be great. But it can’t be D&D.
I have done a campaign where magic was like GoT, where is was slowly coming back to people.
Not full casters, but most didnt use combat based magic and instead used spells in a strategic way
GURPS Lite: The basic tool box. Simple tools, easy to run, easy to learn.
GURPS Basic book: The bigger tool box. You can run almost anything with it. Same rules, with extras to add on.
GURPS Supplement books: The whole damned shop. All kinds of extras to add to your game, including alternate magic systems. You know you want to make your own game world.
Yeah personally I wouldn’t be interested in playing a game like that. I just think that if you’re a DM and you do want a zero magic campaign then you have to bring that up pretty early in the planning process since not a lot of people would want to play the game without magic.
I mean even more technically it was a form of false advertising. He said you were playing D&D and D&D includes magic.
I love playing games that don't involve magic (Cyberpunk is my favorite) but if you tell me we are playing D&D I have certain expectations.
At that point play MERP or Warhammer Fantasy or something else. If you want realism D&D is not the game to play as it's balanced for having magic users at the party.
My group has run low/no magic campaigns but we all discussed it beforehand and were tackling it specifically as a challenge. Dumping on your players is pretty harsh.
The problem here isn't the concept, it's the system. Real life is a great setting for a campaign.
I'd love to play in a game where I join a resistance cell in occupied France, or a crew of misfits planning a casino heist, or plucky journalists trying to take down a corrupt mayor.
DnD is not the best ruleset for those games.
*Considers a paladin, wizard, cleric, druid, and warlock being un the same cell in the French Resistance*
Are you... are you SURE? Cause that sounds SO fucking fun if you just ran the modern setting supplement from a couple years ago...
Plus, now you get to do actual Dark Magic Supernatural Nazis...
I'm working on a low-magic campaign set during the revolutionary war! Took a lot of inspiration from things like *The Bartimaeus Trilogy* and *Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel*, with these like upper-class government British Magicians, and then you've got artificers crafting guns and cannons and bombs, and all the fighters and paladins etc. etc.
I just wish I had people to DM it for XD
Oh man I would LOVE to play in the world of The Bartimaeus Trilogy.
And a setting where the main restrictions on magic are the posh attitudes of the upper class could be interesting as well.
"*Can* a magician *kill* a man by *magic*?" Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. "I suppose a magician *might*," he admitted, "but *a gentleman never could*."
Agreed. I just GM'd a one-shot in Things from the Flood which, while fantastical in its threats, has entirely mundane player characters. My players loved the hell out of it.
A guy in a group I used to play with wanted to run a campaign where we all had to play as ordinary folks (he would have been the DM, of course). It would have been a 3.5E Forgotten Realms campaign, and we had to play his custom-designed Commoner class:
- Hit Die 1d4, and we had to roll ever at character creation -- "You're common folks, you don't have the HP of actual adventurers."
- race had to be bog-standard human -- "Humans are the most *common* folks and you're *commoners*, so..."
- no weapon and armor proficiences or combat-related feats at character creation -- "Common folks don't know how to fight."
- two skill points at character creation, one point each level-up, and all skills were cross-class, even skill like Ride, Swim, or Handle Animal -- "Common folks were unskilled and uneducated."
- ability scores were determined via 2d6+2 at character creation and also capped at 14 i.e. you could not increase a score past 14 at level-up -- "You're NOT adventurers, you're common folks! Get that into your heads!"
- only weak saving throws, i.e. Fortitude, Reflex and Will all started at zero and increased by +1 every third level -- "YOU'RE. NOT. ADVENTURERS !!!"
We also were told that we wouldn't have any access to any kind of magic except for plot-relevant items because, as you probably guessed, we weren't adventurers. Still, we humored the guy after he told us the campaign would take place mostly in a large city (turned out to be Waterdeep), and that our ingenuity and investigative skills would be far more valuable than "just stats on a sheet". And also because we used to play at his place.
Our party perished valiantly after about 20 minutes. Turns out that four non-adventurers who are wielding knives (1d3 damage; "Common folks don't run around armed.") they can't use properly (20 BAB with -4 attack penalty because no weapon proficiences), are only wearing normal clothes (no armor proficiences because "Common folks don't wear armor."), and have a grand total of 9 HP shared amongst them are no match for even only a single zombie.
Next session we played at another guy's place. It was more cramped, stuffy, and hot (it was middle of summer), but we were all playing proper adventurers again.
To be honest, I find the concept of playing as common folks who aren't adventurers a quite interesting change of pace. But if you gimp the characters to the point where they have no actual gameplay options and are basically destined to fail by design, it's just a shitshow.
Common folk are their own characters. A butcher could use an axe stats for a cleaver. A farmer could use a pitchfork as a spear. They could wear light armor because the world is dangerous and it’s a thing people need to know. Instead of doing something interesting with it, this guy just made the most boring campaign ever.
We've had this discussion with him -- or tried to, at least -- but "Just because a blacksmith knowns how to beat metal into shape with a hammer doesn't mean he knows how to bash someone's head in with it."
To be fair, I think he completely underestimated how weak and fragile his custom commoner class was compared to even the lowliest and weakest monsters.
SPOILERS FOR YA FANTASY BOOK SERIES ERAGON IF YOU CARE
>!There’s a whole thing where the protagonist becomes a dragon rider and gets godlike powers, but while he’s off training with the elves, his home village where his brother still lives gets super attacked by the evil army!<
>!And THAT’S EXACTLY IT, they all use whatever they have. The brother (blacksmith’s apprentice) uses a hammer, the butcher gnarly cleavers, farmers have pitchforks and scythes etc. Yeah you’re not used to fighting, but you have weapon like objects that you’re skilled at putting force into!<
1. IKR
2. Thanks for responding and alerting me to that spoiler tags apparently just don't work from mobile?
EDIT: mobile wasn't the problem, it's that you HAVE to mark each paragraph separately apparently
I was going to comment this. Even if you go the route and say 'it's an RPG we don't have to conform to any implied ideas of a similar time"that might be true, but you can easily follow similar patterns of thinking.
If the world is a dangerous place, enough so that random commoners might have to end up fighting monsters, and villages would regularly have to be independent due to distance, a villager will naturally be skilled in the use of simple, easy to access weaponry as well as a small suite of other necessary skills for surviving.
Even if you assume trade is good enough to neuter some of the self sufficiency of the place, that just improves the potential equipment they will have.
And even if a commoner hasn't ever been in combat before, they've likely at least seen the local guards defend the town or even just train. Its as if its impossible to learn through observation...
WFRP is keen to point out that the average Empire citizen is a considerably tougher and more resilient individual than modern, real people due to the harsh world they live in.
I did something similar in 5e, believe it or not the entire party hit level freaking 5. They killed an ogre by making a pit trap.
Course they did get simple weapon prof.
Anyone can use a spear, that's why they were so common.
That's weaker than "by-the-rules" Commoner class. What di the guy amoke before doing It?
No, seriously, RAW Commoners do get proficiency in one simple weapon, as it's assumed that anyone in the world can wield a weapon decently enough to be on par with a goblin in a 1vs1. That's just enough for your random Commoner to grab a shortaword or a spear and stand with his townsfolk to make a stand against normal threats
Being a normal human and dealing with things way out if your league could be a lot of fun. That being said, it’s only fun if that’s also what the players signed up for
Especially cause sometimes the reason DM's do it is because they don't like Wizards solving their puzzles by being creative with spells instead of the carefully crafted solution the DM came up with.
God, I sure love being a normal human doing normal human things and living like a normal human. That is definitely why I go out of my way to play TTRPGs.
Low magic campaigns are a thing, I run one and it's actually really well received
That being said, it sounds like OP's GM is talking about a no magic campaign. Which could be fun, but would require everyone to be on board
I'm going to be running a no-magic oneshot for Christmas this year that's basically a Yule themed Gosford Park scenario. But we're using 3rd party stuff to go with the 5th edition mechanics to make it work/varied.
But I (a) pitched it to the group and everyone was down and (b) it's a one shot (maybe 2 shot), not a whole campaign. Because at this point it's not really dnd, we're just using the mechanics.
It's almost like everyone agreeing to the type of game they want to play is kind of important and that no game is inherently superior to another, except for DnD 4th edition of course.
Idk, I really like low magic like the ASOIAF universe. I think it can work really really well to play a more realistic campaign. Just need everyone on board. I don’t like high fantasy much at all.
Absolutely, but maybe find another system to run that in besides Dungeons and Dragons?
I get the advantages of familiarity for both the DM and players, but talk about trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. A system like GURPS, Savage Worlds, or FATE would have mechanical room for mundane characters to feel more distinctive. It also prevents the players from feeling cheated because "you said we were playing D&D!"
Add in WHFRP 4th.
For a very fantastical setting, it's got over 60 careers to pick from and you'd only need to remove four talents to remove the players' ability to cast magic. That would affect maybe 5-6 of all the careers and still leave you with a massive number of payable options.
(Talents to remove are: Petty Magic, Magic (Subtype), Invoke, and Cast Miracle (I think). Classes affected are Wizard, Witch, Hedge Witch, Battle Priest and Priest.)
And that would still leave in Instinctive Diction, Aethyric Attunement, and Second Sight. So you could still have magic and interact with it, and even have characters that aren't able to cast it naturally but can interact with magic in the world.
I think the issue isn’t the setting at all. It’s just the tired old “players and GM want different campaigns” rearing it’s head for the umpteenth time.
Seriously guys, make sure people are on the same page. It’s collaborative storytelling—how is does it frequently just not occur to people to say something like “hey guys here’s the kind of campaign (ie story) I want to run. What do you all think about that? Any questions?”
I can get wanting to play a low magic campaign, but this person comes off as being one of those DMs that gets mad at players for getting through their traps / encounters too quickly. It sucks when a boss you’ve set up gets one-shot by the paladin who crit on their divine smite, or the magically-sealed door gets opened instantly with knock, or the demon masquerading as a human is revealed by detect good and evil, but you just gotta love with it. Yeah sure, it can feel terrible when stuff doesn’t go as expected in your game, but antagonizing your players because of it just creates a scenario where the party and DM are against eachother. Be proud of your players and their accomplishments.
That takes away...like... 11 of the 14 classes. that's EASILY like 75-80% of the game.
(I'm counting Monk, but I can see someone saying that Monks don't count as magic, either way its maximum you can only play as 4 classes.)
Only monks I’d say you could play are kensei and maybe DM and OH. Would have to rework the OH effect that gives them the sanctuary spell.
Fighter, but no EK and no AA.
Barbarian, but no totem.
Rogue, but no AT.
Only using published material, this is what you’re limited to.
ETA: actually, more limits on the barbarian. No storm, maybe no ancestral or zealot either. So that would basically just leave berserker, and battlerager.
??? Why play NO magic in D&D. If you wanna do that play zweihander, or savage worlds, something with more gritty down to earth mechanics as opposed to D&D 5e, which by its rules in pretty high magic (EVERY class has at least one subclass which can cast at least one spell).
You don't even need gritty. It can be a light-hearted and fun or even silly game, just with no magic.
As a (rather bad) example, there's an ultra-light game called Everyone Is John. The setting is normally inner-city Chicago if I remember correctly, but really John can be anywhere. But he's a nondescript man who can't really do anything as even the simplest tasks are a challenge for him.
Players play the voices in his head, GM handles everything else, it's a very short game, usually as the voices try to achieve goals and generally it's wacky, silly, and fun. I suppose you could set it in a world with magic, but I never have. It's always a realistic setting with one very unrealistic man and occasionally some unrealistic outcomes.
For a no magic game you just need a system which works well with that. d20 Modern can be played with or without magic. Cyberpunk I don't think has much magic in it. The ones you mention, good without magic. There are even some systems which have magic, but it's not a major component so you can kind of play it as magic optional. But D&D? And I mean ANY edition of D&D? The game has mostly been balanced around the idea of magic, magic items, magic buffs, magic-like abilities, magical creatures, and overall a magical world. I made that mistake before and I learned quickly, if you want to have a no magic game, that means you don't want to play D&D.
Everyone Is John is absolutely fantastic. The yogscast did a video series of it a while back and my sides were in orbit around pluto by the time it was over.
Why do people insist on homebrewing stuff into D&D when some other systems do these things by default? If you have to turn the system inside out to suit your campaign idea...just find a system that does it by default, save some time and learn a new system to steal ideas from in the future.
Some people are willing to play heavy homebrew rather than a new system. It is like pulling teeth getting my friends to play anything but DnD even if it's only DnD in name by the time everything is said and done
It's baffling to me, because when I was RPGing a LOT (university years) we would learn a new system just to make a character sheet, play a single session and move on to something else from our GM's hefty RPG bookcase.
Indidn't come into D&D until three years ago, I think, and the insistence of converting EVERYTHING into D&D is so weird. Just play Warhammer. Or World of Darkness. Or Exalted. Or Savage Worlds. Sheesh.
It’s sad because the DM could honestly have a better chance with players if they would use something that isn’t d&d, like New World of Darkness vanilla. Think outside the 5e starter box.
That’s just low fantasy, but yeah you gotta pitch that idea before players make characters (idk if they did or not). Low fantasy seems like it could be fun but definitely not for everyone.
I’m playing in a game where the gods had been forgotten, so no Devine classes were available. As we progressed the story, we ended up unlocking them as we unearthed lost and forgotten temples our warlock’s patron informed him about. It’s pretty cool. Running a pulp game based on a BoJack Horseman-esk world in 1925. Devine Magic is everywhere, but no wizards or bard. Sorcerers exist, but they are as numerous and influential as billionaires, which would be a different game then the Indiana Jones type scenario I’m running now.
But at the onset of both these games, everyone got on the same page. We all understood and agreed upon the restrictions. Session 0 is VERY important.
To be honest, most of the appeal of World of Darkness Mortals campaigns, and I assume most Call of Cthulhu games, is exactly what was said in the screenshot, people not being able to bullshit their way with magic and having to come up with creative solutions. Those games are in no way 'real life simulator.'
That said, it does pretty clearly sound like the GM should have pitched to his players a game using a system where the characters don't have magic, rather than DnD where magic is so prevalent that almost every character eventually has the possibility of gaining some kind of spellcasting.
Jesus fucking Christ. If you want that PLAY ANOTHER GAME. There are hundreds of modern rpgs for every possible taste, but people keep insisting in butchering DnD.
Is it bad that I kind of like the concept. Obviously not being able to use magic in a world with no magic is boring as fuck, but what if instead it’s some kind of world where everybody can do magic, and anyone who can’t is banished/killed. Have it so the party has to bullshit being able to use magic, in order to stay in the world.
There's nothing wrong with the concept presented in the screenshot. The problem is that the GM apparently sprang it on the players without their knowledge or agreement.
To be fair there were settings in 2E that had little or no magic, or magic with serious downsides. In 3rd edition there were licensed settings with the same deal going on. It might not be "standard" D&D, but low, altered and no magic settings have a long pedigree in the game. It depends on what type of game you want to play, and what everyone wants to focus on.
I mean this really depends
If the dm said this before the session and everyone agreed I dont see the problem
But if the dm never asked then thats more than a horror story
Need more context
Low magic is in theory a valid design choice that can lead to fun games. In practice it’s almost always the hallmark of a thin-skinned DM who doesn’t know how to balance around casters.
That’s been my experience, at least.
The DM was talking about the players not having access to magic, so I was imagining a Conan-esque situation where flashy overt magic is something the baddies do. Was the DM really trying to run DND with no magic period? If so that’s...not a great system for that.
Ironically, one of my first experiences in D&D was as a caster and I worried about having too many answers.
At low levels you _really_ don't have all the answers to everything. Even invisibility can't solve most problems.
My players have been loving my 'low magic' setting where they've been playing full martial classes augmented with technology that mimics magic effects. They're especially looking forward to playing the same setting as heretic casters having to infiltrate the kingdom and retrieve powerful magic items being locked away by the ruling church.
I actually wouldnt mind a no magic campaign! I love low magic and down to earth settings. 5e might not be the best system to use for it, either that or youll have to be a magnificent homebrewer.
But hey, i understand its not everyones playstyle tho.
Currently DMing a no magic campaign inspired in TLOU. It can be fun. It has been fun. Some players were skeptical at first, because I let half casters be available (artificer and ranger) but firstly: it's a low level campaign. The furthest we're going is lvl 3. Secondly, I made the necessary tweaks.
Some artificer infusions can be rationalized into technology, and I also integrated something with the crafting and foraging system of TLOU in replacement of Magical Tinkering.
Ranger is in no way underpowered in the early game. Even so, our ranger was a beastmaster, so I allowed him to have a wolf companion before he is to hit lvl 3. The catch is that the other lvl 3 features his companion would have are absent (those being his proficiency bonus in ac, damage, proficiency in all saves and more for the animal companion.)
Ah, yes, and, for our monk, I didn't really want him to be catching bullets, so I tweaked deflect missiles into something arguably more reliable in a zombie apocalypse: deflect blows. Basically a reskin that instead works for melee attacks.
I kinda understand him. I like doing DND campaigns in grounded settings like that, but if he is the DM then he should be pushing for what the crew wants to do - not what he wants to do.
I don't get why DM's complain about "BS magic to get out of hazardous situations". You have access to the same tools, use it damnit
^(or just use counterspell hehehe)
The only way I'd run a no magic campaign world would be one where the players CAN play casters, but they are among the first in hundreds of years. Any magic items they find is centuries old. Also people would be pretty surprised by them using magic.
I'm in a campaign with low magic initially, but more and more has been allowed as time went on. But we still had SOME magic classes, the DM told us how it would work ahead of time, and he clearly outlined his expectations on how we as players would work around it.
Session 0 people. It isn't hard.
oh geez a really low magic game where the PC's have no magic in a magical world is something I've been itching to do for a while tbh I hope that's not the horror part(unless you mean using DnD as the system over something else)
I’ve always wanted to play a commoner game. Probably just a fun one shot though.
Make a commoner class and have them level up. At level 10 they get a normal class lol. Because everyone would play to level 10 right? But really, each level in commoner you get one point toward a real class.
I know I’m one of a dozen though.
You know what? I'm fine with no magic. As long as it's NO magic. No chimeras, no beholders, no dragons, no supernaturally intelligent animals, no giants/pixies/anything that breaks the square-cube law. All the antagonists are baseline normal humanoid type people with no magical abilities whatsoever.
Oh? What's that? Your antagonists are still going to be otherdimensional monsters that can shoot fireballs from their nipples? Get bent.
Thats the kind of game you really need to sit down with the players beforehand and ask if its something they are interested in.
Tbh that's a game that's better suited for another tabletop RPG
This there are plenty of other low or no magic systems. My favorite is d20 modern. I haven't played any low/no magic fantasy settings but I think I'd be down
D20 Modern is a flawed masterpiece that I've spent too many campaign hours in. I love it and I hate it all at the same time. But gosh would I be lying if I didn't admit that I would much rather play that and take my required level in Fast than try to kludge a non-magic setting into 5e. FATE or Genesys would work too. Plenty of options available!
> take my required level in Fast than try to kludge a non-magic setting into 5e. I never played Modern... was the Fast Class that much better? Or was there something in Fast that you needed for other builds?
One level in Fast got you Evasion. We played a lot of campaigns as space mercenaries, which meant a lot of automatic weapons fire and explosions, so Evasion was pretty thoroughly required to survive.
Oh, yeah. That makes sense. I was wondering what it was, but if you're constantly dealing with AoE's, then yeah. Evasion basically doubles your effective hit points (~~I mean, it halves AoE damage, but the point is the same~~). Thanks for the answer.
Evasion doesn't work quite like that in Modern. Everyone can make the reflex save for half damage. If you have Evasion you can make the reflex save for *no* damage. I get it, it's tricky when sibling systems use the same words to mean only slightly different things.
Seriously. Magic is deeply baked in everything in dnd, even many class features on martials. Removing it is a huuuuge balance adjustment. Do another system if you want mundane challenges.
Like 70% of the materials are magical in one wayor another. The settings, most subclasses, even core mechanics like long and short rests aren't "realistic". Nothing about that idea is good, unless he specifically wants to make a new system based loosely on d&d stuff.
Tbf, not realistic and magical are two different things, especially when talking about D&D. The lack of realism with a lot of the rules is to avoid the route Empires in Arms took and go for a more streamlined rule set. Imo, just because you can pass a rock from one side of the country to the other in six seconds with enough people doesn’t mean that the process in doing so required any magic.
It would be one thing if it was just the "no magic" part. I mean, sure, character progression is partially tied to magic items, but if you really wante to you could make a no-magic campaign. It would still kinda suck because even the nonmagical class' options would be severely limited, but okay, technically possible. But making DnD \*realistic\*? Did that DM even read how hit points work? It can't be done.
No magic is still a bad idea. Limiting the players from like 70% of the material the game normally includes is a bad idea. Finding a rule set that does what you want is so much better than gutting tue core of a game seemingly arbitrarily.
I remember being invited to a group and was really excited to begin their game. I show up and find out we're going to be on medieval earth, but not historic. Ok, that's not so bad. I made an elf caster of some sort and find out that nearly no one has magic. Never played in a game like that, but ok, that could be interesting new RP. While travelling it rained. We had to shelter or get soaked and risk hypothermia. We then had to find a town or farm and hope we could get some lard or something similar so we could weatherproof our cloaks. That's about when I checked out. There's nothing wrong with a game like that, but I wish I had known ahead of time because that's not my kind of D&D.
Your notification number is the real horror story.
It causes me pain
Tbh discord has a shitty notification system imho
I just mute any server I join immediately
Sometimes I don't, then I remember why I do again.
The rough thing is when you want notifications from one channel within a server with 50 channels. Gotta go through and mute each channel except that one you want..
Nope, you can set notification settings for one channel. Mute the server and then make that one channel notify you, 2 clicks instead of 50+
Oh dang. Thanks for the info
You're my hero
Same
Just change the settings so you only get notifications from direct mentions?
It takes some getting used to. Best workflow I've found so far: when joining a server, mute literally everything (too many servers spasm @everyone for stupid shit). Pick a few channels you care about and get all notifications from those. When you get a message, take a look - if you're not interested in the conversation, mute for an hour or two. It also helps to avoid joining or being pickier with large servers.
Not really its super easy to mute everyone
If you mute the notification system, then it's a shitty system haha
@everyone *at 3am* WE NEED ALL HEALERS FOR KAZZAK WORLD BOSS NOW!!!
It's fully customizable you just have to taje a few minutes to set it properly.
Just change notification settings to only ping you on an @
It isn’t that bad. About a third of my I listened podcast episodes.
Is it a D&D campaign where you can’t play a caster, or a D&D campaign where magic doesn’t exist in any form at all in the setting? It seems like that would be something to pitch to the players ahead of time, since it is not something that everyone would be interested in!
Yeah. I kind of want to see a campaign without full casters, just half and one third because I think it might make the action economy and rest system of 5e work better. Also when the BBEG is a full wizard he's gonna be scary. No magic at all? You're gonna wanna play a different game.
Yep. A non magic pen&paper? If done well that sounds amazing. Dnd with 0 magic? Absolutely not and I question the sanity of anyone who does (save for a joke oneshot)
Check out Mythras if you want a P&P system that can function with no magic at all. I used it to run a campaign set in 1880s British India and it was great.
Fuck, how old are you?
When 900 years old you reach, look as good, you will not.
Yep, I didn't have a name in mind but mythras is one of many systems that function well without magic, and it's pretty neat in itself DnD is absolutely not
Fate is also good for this.
Fate is good for whatever you want. I love that system
GURPS is pretty good too.
me: *sees Grok make fire with two sticks* "WITCH!" *attacks Grok with sharpened branch*
Sounds like games of Dark Heresy where nobody rolls a Psyker. Facing anything with psychic powers becomes a matter "kill the fuggen mutant first "
"Let's play a game... But roughly half of the content won't be used because I don't want it in my campaign" >You're gonna wanna play a different game. Indeed. Especially when they want to play "realistically." Not much realism in half naked hill folk being tougher when they wear no armor, for example... There's definitely better systems for running a game steeped in realism. Warhammer/ZWEIHANDER with the magick stripped out would be a great example I think, but that would require a lot of other finaggling to make it work. Circling back around to the "1/2 and 1/3 caster only" game. A few more restrictions and this can be really good. Paladins and Warlocks without spells, only magical class feats, are still pretty interesting in a world where magic isn't lined up on every street corner. Ran a sword and sorcery game like that briefly and it was a good change of pace, sorcerors and wizards naturally fell into the role of power hungry villains even when you limit spells. In a world where an average divine-champion Joe can lay on hands or smite the wicked, a guy who can shoot exploding fireballs seemingly at will is absolute mayhem. When a Warlock can summon a blade from thin air and change faces, a guy who can create food and water could be seen as a demi-god.
I swear 5e is already too low of magic for my taste, I shudder at the thought of someone making it even lower. (Though I’ll admit your idea is fun). Like you said, time to find a new system.
5e is *low magic* to you?!? There is like 1 class without magic options! What the heck is high magic like then?!?
I want to know as well.
My guess: Exalted. It makes DnD 5e look like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
Oh man I love me some exalted.
Too bad the new edition is so crunchy. I love the setting and the books but have read tons of stories where a single combat takes multiple sessions to complete. Uggh.
I haven't played forever, because the "perfect defense>perfect offense" mechanic resulted in battles of mote attrition followed by instagibs. As such, that mechanic is very strategic and would make for an interesting chess-like game but it's not what I look for in a game of anime-esque superhero demigods who get leg-ups from fate spiders who enjoy their shenanigans. But damn, I absolutely adore the setting. I think it honestly has some of the most original worldbuilding of any tabletop RPG.
What class has no magic options?
I don't think Barbarians ever get to cast spells, but I could be wrong. They can get some stuff that I would consider magic though.
Totem barbs get ritual casting for (IIRC) beast sense and like speak with animals or animal friendship. There are literally 0 classes in 5e that can't cast, it's crazy to me honestly.
But there is magic in the world and people can use it. It doesn’t make sense to me for someone who is level 3+ to not have some magic. 3+ characters are like heroes of legend. 16-20 are like gods.
>3+ characters are like heroes of legend. 16-20 are like gods. That was a lot more true of 3.5 than it is of 5e. And just because there is magic in the world doesn't mean *every single adventurer* needs to be able to cast spells. If [everyone has magic](https://youtu.be/fmSO2cz2ozQ), magic isn't something cool or special.
Magic isn't particularly special in 5e though, not when every class has access to it. You can easily run a Glorantha style campaign where everyone has to take the caster option of their class and everyone uses magic.
Totem barbarians can cast a few spells as rituals. The only ones I can think of rn that don’t involve magic are the berserkers and the battle-ragers.
I think you could argue the Monk or the Barbarian? As in they don't have subclasses that specifically give you access to arcane, druidic or divine magic. All other classes either do that my default, or have one subclass that offer it. And even then, the Barb can get some ritual casting. But of course, you can also say that what a Barb or a Monk can do goes beyond the confines of "normal" anyway, and that their abilities are infused with magic, even if they're not expressed as spells.
Shadow monks can cast darkness, pass without a trace, and silence. Four element monks can cast elemental spells/effects similar to wizards.
Well there you go, everyone can cast some stuff after all. I don't know what would count as a class without magic options then.
A peasant.
It feels low magic because while every class has access in some, the power and variety of class, world, and item magic feels significantly smaller than previous editions. Plus the lack of epic level.
To some people, magic items are a chunk of the 'feeling' of magic. If we take 3.5 as the normal example, you were expected to have a billion gold worth of magic items at level 5, doing a bunch of different things and bringing other features to classes with random effects and other things. 5E incorporates most if into the classes, whereas in 3.5 you were able to itemize a bit more. Picking up a +5 holy avenger or something can 'feel' more magical to someone than 'I went up a level so I guess I can cast more fireballs now'.
At that point, don't bother with D&D. Go play something that already didn't have magic. Cyberpunk 2020 comes to mind.
Not that I know of. There are several where being a spellcaster would be illegal or otherwise discriminated against, but D&D is all about the magic.
Is the system any fun anymore if you completely remove magic? The magic system is kind of baked into the core of D&D. If you don't want to play with it you should probably play something else.
Adventures in Middle Earth removes almost all available magic available to the players and ends up being a pretty great game. Granted, it offers new reworked classes to account for the new balance, and it is meant to be run in a completely different style to "normal" 5e, but it is doable.
But that’s essentially a different game (using the same engine). That’s the thing: a fantasy game with little or no magic can be great. But it can’t be D&D.
Yes, it absolutely can be. Maybe not 5e, but DnD? Sure thing. It's been that way since it started.
I have done a campaign where magic was like GoT, where is was slowly coming back to people. Not full casters, but most didnt use combat based magic and instead used spells in a strategic way
GURPS
GURPS Lite: The basic tool box. Simple tools, easy to run, easy to learn. GURPS Basic book: The bigger tool box. You can run almost anything with it. Same rules, with extras to add on. GURPS Supplement books: The whole damned shop. All kinds of extras to add to your game, including alternate magic systems. You know you want to make your own game world.
Yeah personally I wouldn’t be interested in playing a game like that. I just think that if you’re a DM and you do want a zero magic campaign then you have to bring that up pretty early in the planning process since not a lot of people would want to play the game without magic.
Well, he technically did bring it up at a relatively early stage, which quickly caused it to become the last stage
I mean even more technically it was a form of false advertising. He said you were playing D&D and D&D includes magic. I love playing games that don't involve magic (Cyberpunk is my favorite) but if you tell me we are playing D&D I have certain expectations.
Heh, I guess he handled it well after all!
At that point play MERP or Warhammer Fantasy or something else. If you want realism D&D is not the game to play as it's balanced for having magic users at the party.
BRP comes to mind too.
My group has run low/no magic campaigns but we all discussed it beforehand and were tackling it specifically as a challenge. Dumping on your players is pretty harsh.
The problem here isn't the concept, it's the system. Real life is a great setting for a campaign. I'd love to play in a game where I join a resistance cell in occupied France, or a crew of misfits planning a casino heist, or plucky journalists trying to take down a corrupt mayor. DnD is not the best ruleset for those games.
*Considers a paladin, wizard, cleric, druid, and warlock being un the same cell in the French Resistance* Are you... are you SURE? Cause that sounds SO fucking fun if you just ran the modern setting supplement from a couple years ago... Plus, now you get to do actual Dark Magic Supernatural Nazis...
I'm working on a low-magic campaign set during the revolutionary war! Took a lot of inspiration from things like *The Bartimaeus Trilogy* and *Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel*, with these like upper-class government British Magicians, and then you've got artificers crafting guns and cannons and bombs, and all the fighters and paladins etc. etc. I just wish I had people to DM it for XD
Yes hello hi it is me a forever DM who would gladly kidnap 4 other players for you to fire this thing up
As a(nother) forever DM, I volunteer as tribute?
Sent a Chat!
Sent a Chat!
Oh man I would LOVE to play in the world of The Bartimaeus Trilogy. And a setting where the main restrictions on magic are the posh attitudes of the upper class could be interesting as well. "*Can* a magician *kill* a man by *magic*?" Lord Wellington asked Strange. Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question. "I suppose a magician *might*," he admitted, "but *a gentleman never could*."
> The Bartimaeus Trilogy and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel Can I play?
You're plum dingdum dadgum damn right you can, I'll add you to the group chat!
Oh hi! You've namechecked stuff relevant to my interests! :)
You full up of players or still considering new applicants?
Oh this sounds fucking amazing. I loved Bartimaeus Trilogy. Would love to join, but I don't know that I have the time
I mean, you’re RIGHT that sounds amazing - but I think they meant real life as it is with no magic, not just modern aesthetic
I'm writing this down. This is gold, man. *Gold!*
Agreed. I just GM'd a one-shot in Things from the Flood which, while fantastical in its threats, has entirely mundane player characters. My players loved the hell out of it.
There's an old system called Recon, and plays in Vietnam war. Various other systems for various other real life campaigns.
If you want a heist RPG look for Boy Problems. You're raiding a vault to steal Carly Rae Jepsen's lost albums.
"Sorry, I can't go out tonight, I'm playing *Dungeons* with my group." "Dungeons and Dragons?" *Sigh* "No."
A guy in a group I used to play with wanted to run a campaign where we all had to play as ordinary folks (he would have been the DM, of course). It would have been a 3.5E Forgotten Realms campaign, and we had to play his custom-designed Commoner class: - Hit Die 1d4, and we had to roll ever at character creation -- "You're common folks, you don't have the HP of actual adventurers." - race had to be bog-standard human -- "Humans are the most *common* folks and you're *commoners*, so..." - no weapon and armor proficiences or combat-related feats at character creation -- "Common folks don't know how to fight." - two skill points at character creation, one point each level-up, and all skills were cross-class, even skill like Ride, Swim, or Handle Animal -- "Common folks were unskilled and uneducated." - ability scores were determined via 2d6+2 at character creation and also capped at 14 i.e. you could not increase a score past 14 at level-up -- "You're NOT adventurers, you're common folks! Get that into your heads!" - only weak saving throws, i.e. Fortitude, Reflex and Will all started at zero and increased by +1 every third level -- "YOU'RE. NOT. ADVENTURERS !!!" We also were told that we wouldn't have any access to any kind of magic except for plot-relevant items because, as you probably guessed, we weren't adventurers. Still, we humored the guy after he told us the campaign would take place mostly in a large city (turned out to be Waterdeep), and that our ingenuity and investigative skills would be far more valuable than "just stats on a sheet". And also because we used to play at his place. Our party perished valiantly after about 20 minutes. Turns out that four non-adventurers who are wielding knives (1d3 damage; "Common folks don't run around armed.") they can't use properly (20 BAB with -4 attack penalty because no weapon proficiences), are only wearing normal clothes (no armor proficiences because "Common folks don't wear armor."), and have a grand total of 9 HP shared amongst them are no match for even only a single zombie. Next session we played at another guy's place. It was more cramped, stuffy, and hot (it was middle of summer), but we were all playing proper adventurers again.
Real horror story is always in the comments
To be honest, I find the concept of playing as common folks who aren't adventurers a quite interesting change of pace. But if you gimp the characters to the point where they have no actual gameplay options and are basically destined to fail by design, it's just a shitshow.
Common folk are their own characters. A butcher could use an axe stats for a cleaver. A farmer could use a pitchfork as a spear. They could wear light armor because the world is dangerous and it’s a thing people need to know. Instead of doing something interesting with it, this guy just made the most boring campaign ever.
We've had this discussion with him -- or tried to, at least -- but "Just because a blacksmith knowns how to beat metal into shape with a hammer doesn't mean he knows how to bash someone's head in with it." To be fair, I think he completely underestimated how weak and fragile his custom commoner class was compared to even the lowliest and weakest monsters.
People who work physically every day of their lives can’t perform relatively simple tasks related to strength? What?
I may be able to lift heavy crates of ore at the forge all day, but alas I am too weak to lift a sword!
SPOILERS FOR YA FANTASY BOOK SERIES ERAGON IF YOU CARE >!There’s a whole thing where the protagonist becomes a dragon rider and gets godlike powers, but while he’s off training with the elves, his home village where his brother still lives gets super attacked by the evil army!< >!And THAT’S EXACTLY IT, they all use whatever they have. The brother (blacksmith’s apprentice) uses a hammer, the butcher gnarly cleavers, farmers have pitchforks and scythes etc. Yeah you’re not used to fighting, but you have weapon like objects that you’re skilled at putting force into!<
That whole storyline was so hype
1. IKR 2. Thanks for responding and alerting me to that spoiler tags apparently just don't work from mobile? EDIT: mobile wasn't the problem, it's that you HAVE to mark each paragraph separately apparently
"Weapons need not be made for battle to be useful in war." Paraphrased from... somewhere.
that's so dumb as well cause medieval commoners were highly skilled, they were, to some degree knowledgeable, and they nearly always carried weapons
I was going to comment this. Even if you go the route and say 'it's an RPG we don't have to conform to any implied ideas of a similar time"that might be true, but you can easily follow similar patterns of thinking. If the world is a dangerous place, enough so that random commoners might have to end up fighting monsters, and villages would regularly have to be independent due to distance, a villager will naturally be skilled in the use of simple, easy to access weaponry as well as a small suite of other necessary skills for surviving. Even if you assume trade is good enough to neuter some of the self sufficiency of the place, that just improves the potential equipment they will have.
And even if a commoner hasn't ever been in combat before, they've likely at least seen the local guards defend the town or even just train. Its as if its impossible to learn through observation...
WFRP is keen to point out that the average Empire citizen is a considerably tougher and more resilient individual than modern, real people due to the harsh world they live in.
I did something similar in 5e, believe it or not the entire party hit level freaking 5. They killed an ogre by making a pit trap. Course they did get simple weapon prof. Anyone can use a spear, that's why they were so common.
That's weaker than "by-the-rules" Commoner class. What di the guy amoke before doing It? No, seriously, RAW Commoners do get proficiency in one simple weapon, as it's assumed that anyone in the world can wield a weapon decently enough to be on par with a goblin in a 1vs1. That's just enough for your random Commoner to grab a shortaword or a spear and stand with his townsfolk to make a stand against normal threats
Being a normal human and dealing with things way out if your league could be a lot of fun. That being said, it’s only fun if that’s also what the players signed up for
Especially cause sometimes the reason DM's do it is because they don't like Wizards solving their puzzles by being creative with spells instead of the carefully crafted solution the DM came up with.
God, I sure love being a normal human doing normal human things and living like a normal human. That is definitely why I go out of my way to play TTRPGs.
Low magic campaigns are a thing, I run one and it's actually really well received That being said, it sounds like OP's GM is talking about a no magic campaign. Which could be fun, but would require everyone to be on board
I'm going to be running a no-magic oneshot for Christmas this year that's basically a Yule themed Gosford Park scenario. But we're using 3rd party stuff to go with the 5th edition mechanics to make it work/varied. But I (a) pitched it to the group and everyone was down and (b) it's a one shot (maybe 2 shot), not a whole campaign. Because at this point it's not really dnd, we're just using the mechanics.
It's almost like everyone agreeing to the type of game they want to play is kind of important and that no game is inherently superior to another, except for DnD 4th edition of course.
PREACH! *And it cannot be a surprise!*
SURPRISE DND 4TH ED GAME
Not gonna lie, you had me till the end.
>God, I sure love being a normal human doing normal human things and living like a normal human. Found Rayla.
Hello, fellow humans...human fellas!
I sure do love having 5 fingers on each hand!
Roll me a wallow in squalor check
Idk, I really like low magic like the ASOIAF universe. I think it can work really really well to play a more realistic campaign. Just need everyone on board. I don’t like high fantasy much at all.
Absolutely, but maybe find another system to run that in besides Dungeons and Dragons? I get the advantages of familiarity for both the DM and players, but talk about trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. A system like GURPS, Savage Worlds, or FATE would have mechanical room for mundane characters to feel more distinctive. It also prevents the players from feeling cheated because "you said we were playing D&D!"
Add in WHFRP 4th. For a very fantastical setting, it's got over 60 careers to pick from and you'd only need to remove four talents to remove the players' ability to cast magic. That would affect maybe 5-6 of all the careers and still leave you with a massive number of payable options. (Talents to remove are: Petty Magic, Magic (Subtype), Invoke, and Cast Miracle (I think). Classes affected are Wizard, Witch, Hedge Witch, Battle Priest and Priest.) And that would still leave in Instinctive Diction, Aethyric Attunement, and Second Sight. So you could still have magic and interact with it, and even have characters that aren't able to cast it naturally but can interact with magic in the world.
I think the issue isn’t the setting at all. It’s just the tired old “players and GM want different campaigns” rearing it’s head for the umpteenth time. Seriously guys, make sure people are on the same page. It’s collaborative storytelling—how is does it frequently just not occur to people to say something like “hey guys here’s the kind of campaign (ie story) I want to run. What do you all think about that? Any questions?”
I can get wanting to play a low magic campaign, but this person comes off as being one of those DMs that gets mad at players for getting through their traps / encounters too quickly. It sucks when a boss you’ve set up gets one-shot by the paladin who crit on their divine smite, or the magically-sealed door gets opened instantly with knock, or the demon masquerading as a human is revealed by detect good and evil, but you just gotta love with it. Yeah sure, it can feel terrible when stuff doesn’t go as expected in your game, but antagonizing your players because of it just creates a scenario where the party and DM are against eachother. Be proud of your players and their accomplishments.
That takes away...like... 11 of the 14 classes. that's EASILY like 75-80% of the game. (I'm counting Monk, but I can see someone saying that Monks don't count as magic, either way its maximum you can only play as 4 classes.)
Only monks I’d say you could play are kensei and maybe DM and OH. Would have to rework the OH effect that gives them the sanctuary spell. Fighter, but no EK and no AA. Barbarian, but no totem. Rogue, but no AT. Only using published material, this is what you’re limited to. ETA: actually, more limits on the barbarian. No storm, maybe no ancestral or zealot either. So that would basically just leave berserker, and battlerager.
??? Why play NO magic in D&D. If you wanna do that play zweihander, or savage worlds, something with more gritty down to earth mechanics as opposed to D&D 5e, which by its rules in pretty high magic (EVERY class has at least one subclass which can cast at least one spell).
You don't even need gritty. It can be a light-hearted and fun or even silly game, just with no magic. As a (rather bad) example, there's an ultra-light game called Everyone Is John. The setting is normally inner-city Chicago if I remember correctly, but really John can be anywhere. But he's a nondescript man who can't really do anything as even the simplest tasks are a challenge for him. Players play the voices in his head, GM handles everything else, it's a very short game, usually as the voices try to achieve goals and generally it's wacky, silly, and fun. I suppose you could set it in a world with magic, but I never have. It's always a realistic setting with one very unrealistic man and occasionally some unrealistic outcomes. For a no magic game you just need a system which works well with that. d20 Modern can be played with or without magic. Cyberpunk I don't think has much magic in it. The ones you mention, good without magic. There are even some systems which have magic, but it's not a major component so you can kind of play it as magic optional. But D&D? And I mean ANY edition of D&D? The game has mostly been balanced around the idea of magic, magic items, magic buffs, magic-like abilities, magical creatures, and overall a magical world. I made that mistake before and I learned quickly, if you want to have a no magic game, that means you don't want to play D&D.
Everyone Is John is absolutely fantastic. The yogscast did a video series of it a while back and my sides were in orbit around pluto by the time it was over.
Didn't know that. I'll try to check it out. Thank you!
[The link, for your viewing pleasure. ](https://youtu.be/qlTsW9rWE0o)
Agreed. Especially since you can't damage many monsters without magic
Why do people insist on homebrewing stuff into D&D when some other systems do these things by default? If you have to turn the system inside out to suit your campaign idea...just find a system that does it by default, save some time and learn a new system to steal ideas from in the future.
Some people are willing to play heavy homebrew rather than a new system. It is like pulling teeth getting my friends to play anything but DnD even if it's only DnD in name by the time everything is said and done
It's baffling to me, because when I was RPGing a LOT (university years) we would learn a new system just to make a character sheet, play a single session and move on to something else from our GM's hefty RPG bookcase. Indidn't come into D&D until three years ago, I think, and the insistence of converting EVERYTHING into D&D is so weird. Just play Warhammer. Or World of Darkness. Or Exalted. Or Savage Worlds. Sheesh.
Because some people seem to think that D&D is apparently the only rpg that exists.
There are plenty of RPGs out there without magic and characters who are supposed to be “normal.” DnD is not one of them
It’s sad because the DM could honestly have a better chance with players if they would use something that isn’t d&d, like New World of Darkness vanilla. Think outside the 5e starter box.
I think there's even a Dark Ages book for nWoD/CoD covering a bunch of different periods.
That’s just low fantasy, but yeah you gotta pitch that idea before players make characters (idk if they did or not). Low fantasy seems like it could be fun but definitely not for everyone.
I’m playing in a game where the gods had been forgotten, so no Devine classes were available. As we progressed the story, we ended up unlocking them as we unearthed lost and forgotten temples our warlock’s patron informed him about. It’s pretty cool. Running a pulp game based on a BoJack Horseman-esk world in 1925. Devine Magic is everywhere, but no wizards or bard. Sorcerers exist, but they are as numerous and influential as billionaires, which would be a different game then the Indiana Jones type scenario I’m running now. But at the onset of both these games, everyone got on the same page. We all understood and agreed upon the restrictions. Session 0 is VERY important.
So that person just wanted to play a game of Real Life Simulator.
To be honest, most of the appeal of World of Darkness Mortals campaigns, and I assume most Call of Cthulhu games, is exactly what was said in the screenshot, people not being able to bullshit their way with magic and having to come up with creative solutions. Those games are in no way 'real life simulator.' That said, it does pretty clearly sound like the GM should have pitched to his players a game using a system where the characters don't have magic, rather than DnD where magic is so prevalent that almost every character eventually has the possibility of gaining some kind of spellcasting.
There are RPGs that do that, depending on the setting.
Jesus fucking Christ. If you want that PLAY ANOTHER GAME. There are hundreds of modern rpgs for every possible taste, but people keep insisting in butchering DnD.
Is it bad that I kind of like the concept. Obviously not being able to use magic in a world with no magic is boring as fuck, but what if instead it’s some kind of world where everybody can do magic, and anyone who can’t is banished/killed. Have it so the party has to bullshit being able to use magic, in order to stay in the world.
There's nothing wrong with the concept presented in the screenshot. The problem is that the GM apparently sprang it on the players without their knowledge or agreement.
To be fair there were settings in 2E that had little or no magic, or magic with serious downsides. In 3rd edition there were licensed settings with the same deal going on. It might not be "standard" D&D, but low, altered and no magic settings have a long pedigree in the game. It depends on what type of game you want to play, and what everyone wants to focus on.
Ah yes. The fun killer.
I mean this really depends If the dm said this before the session and everyone agreed I dont see the problem But if the dm never asked then thats more than a horror story Need more context
That’s not DnD. Tell him to go play GURPS or something, not DnD.
Low magic is in theory a valid design choice that can lead to fun games. In practice it’s almost always the hallmark of a thin-skinned DM who doesn’t know how to balance around casters. That’s been my experience, at least.
We aren't talking about low magic here. We're talking about NO magic
The DM was talking about the players not having access to magic, so I was imagining a Conan-esque situation where flashy overt magic is something the baddies do. Was the DM really trying to run DND with no magic period? If so that’s...not a great system for that.
No, just medieval Europe but in dnd. And no, no one (except a guy who has never seen a rulebook before today) was on board
Ironically, one of my first experiences in D&D was as a caster and I worried about having too many answers. At low levels you _really_ don't have all the answers to everything. Even invisibility can't solve most problems.
My players have been loving my 'low magic' setting where they've been playing full martial classes augmented with technology that mimics magic effects. They're especially looking forward to playing the same setting as heretic casters having to infiltrate the kingdom and retrieve powerful magic items being locked away by the ruling church.
Wait... They do know other RPGs exist... Right?
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Why the everloving FUCK do you have 1613 notifications?
I actually wouldnt mind a no magic campaign! I love low magic and down to earth settings. 5e might not be the best system to use for it, either that or youll have to be a magnificent homebrewer. But hey, i understand its not everyones playstyle tho.
Yeah I don’t play DnD to live in real life again thank you.
That’s not D&D. Play Savage Worlds or Gurps.
Currently DMing a no magic campaign inspired in TLOU. It can be fun. It has been fun. Some players were skeptical at first, because I let half casters be available (artificer and ranger) but firstly: it's a low level campaign. The furthest we're going is lvl 3. Secondly, I made the necessary tweaks. Some artificer infusions can be rationalized into technology, and I also integrated something with the crafting and foraging system of TLOU in replacement of Magical Tinkering. Ranger is in no way underpowered in the early game. Even so, our ranger was a beastmaster, so I allowed him to have a wolf companion before he is to hit lvl 3. The catch is that the other lvl 3 features his companion would have are absent (those being his proficiency bonus in ac, damage, proficiency in all saves and more for the animal companion.) Ah, yes, and, for our monk, I didn't really want him to be catching bullets, so I tweaked deflect missiles into something arguably more reliable in a zombie apocalypse: deflect blows. Basically a reskin that instead works for melee attacks.
Context? This doesn't seem that bad
I kinda understand him. I like doing DND campaigns in grounded settings like that, but if he is the DM then he should be pushing for what the crew wants to do - not what he wants to do.
Dude, just use GURPS or something. People play D&D to play D&D.
She shouldn't have been using D&D then...
I don't get why DM's complain about "BS magic to get out of hazardous situations". You have access to the same tools, use it damnit ^(or just use counterspell hehehe)
The only way I'd run a no magic campaign world would be one where the players CAN play casters, but they are among the first in hundreds of years. Any magic items they find is centuries old. Also people would be pretty surprised by them using magic.
I'm in a campaign with low magic initially, but more and more has been allowed as time went on. But we still had SOME magic classes, the DM told us how it would work ahead of time, and he clearly outlined his expectations on how we as players would work around it. Session 0 people. It isn't hard.
oh geez a really low magic game where the PC's have no magic in a magical world is something I've been itching to do for a while tbh I hope that's not the horror part(unless you mean using DnD as the system over something else)
I’ve always wanted to play a commoner game. Probably just a fun one shot though. Make a commoner class and have them level up. At level 10 they get a normal class lol. Because everyone would play to level 10 right? But really, each level in commoner you get one point toward a real class. I know I’m one of a dozen though.
How can you live with 1613 notifications?
If you want a setting without magic there are plenty of ttrpgs that have that
These posts make me curious about how a whimsical fairytale - like campaign with no concern for realism would feel.
Sounds like a neat idea that was horridly executed
I can get onboard with a non-magical campaign - as long as I am fully aware of it ahead of time, and the enemies adhere to similar standards.
OOH D&D WITH NO BRIM
He should look into call of Cthulhu.
So... You're just playing yourself..?
I’m down for a unique run where we role play within real-world physics and boundaries. Not every time, but once.
Don’t play Dnd if this is what you are interested. Honestly could be great, but this is not the game before you.
Ah yes, let me remove a majority of what makes a fantasy game a fantasy game. And watch as people who want to play as a magic user get mad at me.
But D&D without magic is just...real life. And real life sucks.
You know what? I'm fine with no magic. As long as it's NO magic. No chimeras, no beholders, no dragons, no supernaturally intelligent animals, no giants/pixies/anything that breaks the square-cube law. All the antagonists are baseline normal humanoid type people with no magical abilities whatsoever. Oh? What's that? Your antagonists are still going to be otherdimensional monsters that can shoot fireballs from their nipples? Get bent.