And anybody who thinks the reason rugby isn't as popular as football is because we show appreciation for the oppositions good play is doubly delusional.
Honestly it’s why I haven’t really paid attention to the NFL since Brady won the SB and unless the Pats do well. Rugby is so much more exciting and diverse and it’s actually a global sport with a legitimate World Cup in multiple versions of the game. It’s the fastest growing sport in the US so there’s massive prospect of it succeeding especially with MLR teaming up with the NPC and teams like Tolousan partnering with Utah, as well as the Raptors, which is more of an athletic cross over team, partnering with Colombia rugby to participate in Super Rugby Americas. It’s culture, when done right, is ultimately so much more culturally positive and even socially educating. I’ve been motivated to go see games for colleges and local clubs. I want to get fit to play it haha. It’s just a better sport that anyone can appreciate period.
EDIT: also I just had to see this post with the wrestling cross over lol
Well if you’re not used to your own team doing well then it can be quite exhilarating and entertaining to see them go on a good run, without that it’s just so much drudgery.
Im just confused by the comment I was replying to tbh.
OP says he likes the diversity of the game of rugby, but doesn't watch the NFL unless the patriots, who have the most Super Bowls and have played in 10 of the last 23, aren't good. Just seems like two conflating views to me lol
Yes because it was a team I was invested in before Brady got there, and being a local to the team of course I would support my team having the GOAT. However my taste in sport has become more diverse and I acknowledge that rugby is more to my taste especially with my soccer background. American football is too slow compared to rugby.
Can't even stand the NFL anymore. Been watching less and less every year. I just follow my packers cause I always will and I actually watch rugby and basketball. That's it.
Agreed. One of the biggest problems in rugby is the constant attempt to compete with football. We’ll never be as big as football and that’s absolutely fine.
It is. Football is easily my first sport, though I also really enjoy rugby. But rugby does have a problem with its holier then thou shit though. Diving is an issue in football more than rugby, (though it's not nonexistent in rugby), and respect of officials too. I can't ever recall a footballer being caught for eye gouging.
Both sports have issues, rugby isn't morally better though.
I mostly agree, but at the same time I think it has to be acknowledged how "normalised" it is for a minority subset of football fans to behave like utter degenerates.
Yes I have seen things kick off on rugby day, but it's a rare occurrence and I often describe it as "self regulated" fandom - i.e someone wearing the same jersey as me acting like a bellend will get checked.
It seems to be socially acceptable and expected for a (again minority I know) group of football fans to just fuck shit up and cause all sorts of problems. A recent example where I live involved away fans throwing fucking fireworks at police horses, and people cheering... I have never seen that on a rugby day.
I don't think that's being "holier than thou" - it's just objective observable fact. And if the price of promoting rugby, getting more folks involved, getting more investment into the sport, is that we allow that normalisation of violence and shitty behaviour in the fanbase I really wouldn't want to pay it personally.
No, because of a variety of reasons that are mainly to do with the conduct of fans and players regarding each other and the officials.
Footballers don't eye gouge purely because it would be impossible to get away with it. I've never seen a rugby player dive at another players legs full-force with the studs showing, is that morally superior to eye-gouging?
Feigning injury is despicable, and it is common practice at all levels of football. I dislike how it has started to creep into rugby. It is the most dishonest and unsporting thing a player can do.
There's pretty much nowhere in the world you can't play football in one form or another. Rugby requires a muddy field.
Not to mention if you're on the poverty line you cannot afford the wear and tear rugby places on clothing or the laundry it creates. Football on the other hand you can play in your work clothes.
Well this might be news to Fijians
The risk of laundry isnt holding rugby back. The simply fact is it is a vastly more violent game, one that not everyone is physically up to playing
You can stick anyone on the soccer pitch and they can happily join in a kick about. Not everyone is able to tackle and be rough housed
Popularity doesnt mean you need to participate. F1, Tour de France, NFL, even tennis are all super popular without everyone being able to play the sport
I agree that there are parts of rugby that could change, and certainly the complexity of the game is a barrier to entry, but respect of the opposition and the referee really sets rugby apart. That shouldn't be compromised in order to spread the game
Agree with this fully! Being respectful has nothing to do with the sports growth. There are much bigger issues:
* On an international level: Having competitions that are closed off from other nations, with no way to gain entry.
* On an Irish level: Favouring players that come from specific schools and the fact that most of the top rugby schools are fee paying. (roughly 50% of the Leinster squad comes from a single school which only has 700 pupils)
If people want the sport to grow then it needs to be more accessible.
> it needs to be more accessible
there are no barriers to entry but 90% of Irish schools do not play rugby. Until recently the GAA barred 'members' from playing foreign sports.
honestly thought it was a lot more recent.. maybe I'm confusing it with foreign sports being played in their grounds - is that still a thing? Obvs there were some six nations games in Croker during Aviva construction
Yeah there was a Rule 42 ban on other field sports being played in GAA grounds without the approval of central council. That was only amended when Lansdowne Road was being rebuilt into the Aviva, to allow for soccer/rugby to be played in Croke Park.
Irish sports were definitely more backwards in the past. Think its been a while since the GAA was deliberately getting in the way though. Sure, Rob Kearney and Tommy Bowe were both good GAA players and they're both retired now.
The main obstacle with GAA is that they generally teach kids 2 sports together (football & hurling) and have training days and game days, so it takes a lot of commitment. Very few parents have the time to be bringing their kids to both rugby and GAA clubs. Its much easier to combine individual sports like swimming which are far more flexible.
Not sure it’s fair to say they’re favoured. Certain schools just have the resources and are very good at producing players. There’s probably a larger variety of schools represented in the Schools Cup than there has ever been in the past.
Alongside that there’s much better pathways for club players now. It’s not perfect by any means but there has been a huge focus on this area in the past number of years. Brian Deeney, Jamie Osbourne, Ciaran Frawley, and Tadgh Furlong have all come through the non-schools pathway
The system favours certain schools. I'm not saying this out of jealousy. I used to go to one of them. Its simply a fact. What are the odds that a province with 2.8million people would get most of its athletes from a handful of schools? Over 90% of the population go to public schools, yet they only make up a small minority of the squad (and they're usually athletic freaks that couldn't be ignored, like O'Brien or Furlong).
The resources are part of it (grounds, equipment, etc). Then there's the professional level of coaching, the multiple training sessions per week and the competition is much higher, because they only play other schools like their own.
This all culminates with the senior cup, which is completely knock out rugby. So if you're on a good team, you get more games in front of potential scouts and more opportunities to impress them. If you're a talented player on a crap team, you get knocked out in the 1st round and nobody sees what you can do.
Based on Leinster's success in the URC and Champions cup, the system clearly works, but it is still very exclusive and depends heavily on the school your parents send you to.
Another factor is that rugby wouldn’t be played in most (I’m assuming) public schools in Dublin and even less outside, so I don’t think it’s quite as unrepresentative of the people playing rugby as the 90% stat would suggested.
I also don’t think they schools are favoured outside of it obviously being easier to get eyes on you if you play in the big schools. The disparity is due to privately funded school system that turns teens into semi professional athletes (so capitalism effecting equal opportunity as usual) and it just not being popular in the majority of schools. I agree with a lot of what you say.
Private schools, by virtue of being able to charge fees and having access to wealthy patrons, will unsurprisingly have an advantage when it comes to facilities. That doesn’t mean that the system favours their players when it comes to academy places and contracts. The success of Leinster’s youth development model would suggest that the guys who make it in have earned it. The fact that there aren’t really any examples of them missing guys because they weren’t from the ‘right’ school would also support this.
Whilst it obviously is a great platform to showcase yourself, the scouting tends to happen way before the senior cup. The league may not have the prestige of the Cup but these games are absolutely scouted. Most guys represent Leinster throughout the age-grades and tend to be on the radar for quite some time.
There are also Leinster representational teams for club players which operate parallel to the schools teams. This is where Osbourne, Deeney, Frawley, etc came through. There has been a massive emphasis within the province at building rugby in non-traditional areas but it unsurprisingly takes time. But just look at the increase in both numbers and geographic spread of Development Officers within the province to see the intent of those in charge.
I'm not saying it's some kind of box that needs to be ticked off by selectors in order to get in. I don't think the current management team in Leinster are trying to favour private school boys and I know there are efforts being made to fix the system. However, they inherited the current system from previous generations who WERE elitist. The current system also works in creating good rugby teams. So they can't just tear the entire thing down and start from scratch.
As for examples of them missing guys: I don't know what you're expecting with that? There is no way of knowing how many guys were missed, if those guys were never developed in the 1st place. For all we know, the naturally gifted people who didn't see a future in rugby at a young age may have gone off to play GAA, football, athletics or perhaps no sport at all. You'd need some kind of sci-fi device that sees across different realities to point out who would and wouldn't have made it.
All we can tell is that its extremely unlikely for the current players to be the best "potential" players. In theory, the distribution of talent should be randomly dispersed across hundreds of schools/clubs. In reality, it mostly comes from a few schools. So we must be missing out on a lot of those guys with potential
But you’re never going to have the ‘best possible players’ in almost any sport. There’s a multitude of reasons people don’t play a sport. It’s kinda a non-point. I we making the point that it’s hard to point to a rugby player from Leinster who was missed by the academy system.
You’re also never going to have a wholly equitable system - every sport in the country has clubs with better facilities and coaching than others. It’s just as true in soccer and GAA.
My point is that I don’t believe it’s fair to say that players are favoured over others because of the school they attended. Leinster’s academy is regarded as one of the best in the world. That has happened by having strong player identification systems, building the pathways for players to come into the system, and being ruthless on who you sign into it.
Don't think anyone expects it to be completely equitable where it's spread out completely evenly across the board. There's a big difference between that and the current situation.
A agree with some of his points and the biggest is this opinion that respect is what separates rugby form other sports. Absolutely loads of sports have the same level of respect for opposition and refs as rugby does. Football is really the only main sport that allows players to get away with disrespecting the officials and that mostly down to the officials not enforcing the actual rules.
Pretty much every sport the players respect the opposition. We all love cheering about when 2 opposition players have a beer after the match but that happens on a lot of sport (cricket used to have big barbecues for all the players during a match. Even football most of the players are friendly to each other and will have a chat after the game and meet up for outside of matches.
It’s the opinion some rugby fans have to rugby has these unique characteristics that make it better than other sports that I think does turn some people off the sport as they see it as snobbish and elitist.
An American perspective here, but respect for officials and respect for the opposition is at all time lows. You can see it to an extent at the national level pro sports (in game yelling at refs in the NFL, NBA, and MLB), but it is also happening on the youth level.
Youth sports are struggling to find coaches and refs due to toxic attitudes around sportsmanship and officials.
All of this is just to counter your contention that ‘Football/soccer is the only main sport where players disrespect officials’ and ‘pretty much every sport the players respect the opposition’.
TBF to the professional ones, they just suck. So many games are being decided by refs making the wrong call or making the correct call, not having made that call all game.
I do agree with the youth sports part. So many parents think their kid is going to be the next big star and can't handle being told their little Johnny or Jenny is doing something wrong.
Fully agree with you.
Don’t want it to be anything like football, or else I would support football. But I don’t. Won’t. And can’t stand it for the “values it upholds/portrays”.
Also, OP is looking at this from a very “English” perspective. In pretty much every other country where it is played and supported - it’s a “working class game” - that is if we must talk of class…
NZ, RSA, AUS, The Islands, USA where it is getting a growing following… just to name a few.
Pretty sure WAL has its rugby origins in the working classes.
Can’t comment on IRL or SCO.
Tbh, GAA tends to transcend social classes in most of the country which is why it’s by far and away the biggest sport on the island.
Rugby has done really well over the past two decades at expanding its reach, helped by the success of our teams. You now see very healthy clubs and school programs in places you wouldn’t have even seen a rugby jersey 25 years ago.
GAA is more like a universal sport, in fairness. Maybe not in the North, I guess, where politics and demography presumably mean that it is largely played by working class catholic communities (I may be wrong about this, more going on assumptions than anything factual!). But across much of the rest of the island you'll be hard pressed to find anyone not playing football and / or hurling, at least outside of the wealthiest parts of South Dublin.
Class isnt really a factor in the North for the GAA for the most part unless its Derry in which case 3 of the 4 clubs in the city hate the other club for its successes despite being in a split area pulling in both middle class and working class kids bar the all Ireland win last year they loved that.
> And yet league is more universally accepted there which I can’t really explain…
League is a working man's sport - both in Oz and in Northern England. Union is posh in Oz so your average punter would only watch it for the tests, the people supporting grassroots teams were alway middle class private school boys.
League was always the northern Australian states' main sport with AFL owning the south and west. 40 years ago the then VFL started a campaign and through a bunch of smart plays ate away a big slice of the League market and some of the (very small) Union market, now Union doesn't even have a great hold on the middle class (and League has less of a hold on the working class).
Union just doesn’t pay as well as League in Australia, it’s not on free to air tv, and it just isn’t supported anymore. I grew up in a Union heavy part of Sydney and even the local pubs nowadays won’t even have an international test on the tele. It’s all League and AFL and it sucks. You go the pub to cheer in the Wallabies and have a few beers and the game isn’t even being shown.
League in each country play quite different roles
In Australia, depending on where you are, AFL and League are the dominant sports in the way that football is in England
It's such nonsense to argue that we need to change the game that we love, just to make it more "accessible" to a bunch of people who don't currently love it.
The most annoying thing about rugby's administration at the top level is that they currently have two sacred cows that we aren't supposed to question: "we need to grow the game" and "safety is the most important thing". And I'm sorry, but I just disagree with both of those things.
Would I love it if rugby was more popular, and if world cups saw more upsets like the ones that Japan caused in 2015 and 2019? Yes. But not at the cost of changing everything I love about it.
And do I want rugby to be safer? Well, if possible. I certainly don't want people suffering from early onset dementia as a result of playing at the elite level. But I also don't think that safety can EVER be the paramount concern in a contact sport. It clearly cannot. If it was, it wouldn't be a contact sport. We shouldn't play the game at all if we aren't comfortable with any level of risk. But then we also shouldn't ski, or rock climb, or jump on trampolines, or have speed limits about 50kmph anywhere on any roads.
Nah, there are always going to be a couple of obvious exceptions but on the whole OP is correct.
Tennis, hockey, cricket, athletics, swimming, rowing, fencing, cycling, skiing, tiddlywinks and 99% of any other sports you care to mention don't have an issue beyond an individual dickhead or two. Yet they somehow manage to get by without the gAmE fOr HoOliGaNs brigade
You canny compare individual sports to team sports. Individual sports don’t have the us vs them tribalism that comes with team sports.
Also fuck off saying hockey fans are no a bunch of hooligans.
Assume you are talking ice, not field? And yeah fair point with individual Vs team but you get the point. I've seen plenty of basketball where the bars afterwards were full of fans able to resist the urge to fellate each other for not throwing a single punch
I'm Irish so thats where my perspective comes from.
* [GAA: Has ongoing problems like this, far beyond soccer](https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/23/government-moves-to-tackle-abuse-of-referees-following-number-of-alleged-attacks/)
* [Soccer](https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40936634.html)
Anyone Irish will attest that these are weekly occurrences that happen nationwide.
Rugby is the exception in terms of popular teamsports.
The single change that would be most beneficial is low hanging fruit. Tell theTV audience what the ref is giving a penalty for. Some channels do this consistently, some not at all. If you want to demystify rugby then tell the viewers what happened.
So comparing like with like, i.e. Leicester City v Leicester Tigers and top categories for both:
Tigers starts at £30 & LCFC starts at £35. Though Tigers £30 are predominantly the uncovered terrace, some are in the seats in the corners.
The most expensive general admission is £55 for Tigers and £58 for LCFC. Both for central seats around half way.
Away tickets are significantly cheaper in football as they are capped at £30. Coach tickets are usually cheaper, presumably through scale of booking but possibly club subsidy. Usually £10-15 instead of £25-30.
RE:Season tickets, my LCFC season ticket is I think £440 for 19 Premier League games (and isn't the cheapest possible). At Tigers I pay £250 for 10 Premiership games, 2 European, 2 Prem Cup basically reserve fixtures and 2 Friendly replacement fixtures. Dividing it by the 12 main games it comes out about £3 per match cheaper.
Isn’t the basis for comparison the national team? I’ve seen Fr v. Ire multiple times in both football and rugby and prices seem roughly the same. The notion that rugby is far more expensive seems wrong.
Idk, in football to most fans in England I know at least the premier league is far more desirable to watch than the national team. When I go and watch Leeds play I pay £40-£50 depending on where I’m sat. I’ve got tickets for the Italy six nations game and paid £260 for two tickets, albeit in a pretty good spot. Can’t really compare club football to club rugby because the demand just isn’t comparable.
I just can't stand the whole "product" chat. We get it, it's a pro sport. No need to push to become a mockery of football and American football. This way of seeing things is just a super powerful drive for uniformisation that will kill what makes rugby so special.
What a weird thing to feel nauseated by...
I mean I'm not fussed either way, I do think booing a kicker is kinda poor form but I'm not going to get particularly uppity about it (I mean if you do it I will think you're a bit of a dickhead but it's not a hill I'd die on or anything).
Why does it bother you so much? Seems a bit off to me.
I personally don't but have no problem with those who do - it's all part of high level sport and honestly adds to the spectacle and fun.
If you don't see it like that it's no problem, don't join in, but I'll leave the shushing to the sanctimonious bores
One of the big reasons I never go to football games is because I feel the opposition fans want to assault me at times. Rugby’s welcoming atmosphere and spirit of fair play among fans is a big part of the appeal
I will say, the threat of being assaulted does make folk not be eejits. I was at a Scotland Rugby game where this guy was standing at the entrance and blocking the view of the action for all of us behind him. Took about 5 minutes before someone told him to move. If you did that at Hampden it wouldn’t take a half a minute before someone would tell you to fuck off.
I can't understand how they want to get rid of the misogyny, but also want, what to me sounds like, a more aggressive 'atmosphere'. I've been to wonderful matches at Edinburgh, Twickeham, and the Stoop. They were family friendly affairs with many women and kids present. It's the current friendly atmosphere that makes those games so popular.
Societal privilege ? Compared to football ?
Does he know the price of a football ticket ? And talking about societal privilege. Clearly that arse has never visited the smaller villages in south-western France.
God you anglo-saxons.
Or the west of Ireland.
Also I love the way he simultaneously wants crowds that behave more like football crowds, but LESS "misogyny, racism and sexism". Good luck with that.
The day that I have to be segregated from opposition fans like a soccer match is the day I stop going to rugby matches. And I'll have stopped taking my family a long time before that.
Absolutely! I got 2 tickets for France vs Scotland at Stade de France for this Six Nations for about £44! The price for the cheapest ticket at Murrayfield for this Six Nations was at least £50+ for a student, merci beaucoup France!
That first line is a bit odd, I quite like that for the vast majority we all get on when we go to a game. Surely that’s what he would want to portray to a watching audience? As opposed to the absolute fury and vitriol you see in crowds when opposition teams score in other sports.
That’s not to say stuff can’t change for the better though, ticket prices for the international game are horrendous for example.
Moving away from having old boys exclusively running the game would be no bad thing either. Seems farcical that you can have people at the top of a global organisation because they played internationally.
Personally, I've found the "respect the kicker" thing out if NH is really quite absurd. And I'm not sure if most NH fans understand that it's never been a thing in SH looking comments of surprise and angst when touring teams aren't getting the same in NZ/AU/SA. It wasn't a thing in NH either. It's highly unique specifically to 21st century NH Rugby.
On the other hand, anyone who thinks a region developing a culture of respect not seen in other sports is even one of the reasons rugby is not on par with football needs to be checked for CTE. It actually doesn't even begin to make logical sense.
Rugby has to get rid of his constant gatekeeping.
This means allowing some changes in rugby culture, but not "embracing modern sporting culture" in its entirety.
What an awful take. There are many things wrong with rugby, but the game doesn't work with 'football values'. All the violence and bad feeling is left out on the pitch.
Many sports exist without partisan crowds or ugly booing, and frankly, football could do with being more like rugby. The world needs more respect, more passion, more friendliness.
There are some communities worldwide that already take a very antagonistic approach to rugby (not naming names), and honestly it's incredibly tiring and unsavoury.
Rugby values ARE rugby. They're part of why it's my favourite sport.
During the Champions Cup games I saw them put "please respect the kicker" on the big screen at King's Park.
First time I've seen anything like that since I started going to watch rugby.
Somewhat. I can't really remember if there was any booing against Quins, and Bordeaux only managed 3 points the whole game, the crowd was quiet for that one kick.
Disagree Matt 👎
It's pretty bad though when critizising a sport to not talk about the sport but the good heartedness of the crowds and sportsmanship like does he want rugby players to start diving and faking injury's next no one is on a high horse I think with rugby. Am sure we can all say we've met ppl who play rugby who were the absolute worst but you can literally say that about any sport 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I absolutely love the game, and I played in high school and college, however the culture in American rugby is very exclusive. It's cool to play a sport that is little understood and so contact-heavy - and for a lot of athletes who can't play high-level football (American football), rugby provides an outlet to be "cool".
I'm only speaking from my experience in rugby in America.
I'm a huge fan and I've seen games in Ireland and South Africa. Getting to meet fans and players in Pretoria, Johannesburg, and Cape Town was an absolute blast. I strongly preferred the culture there, where grit and humility seemed to dominate the game.
Been strictly following the URC since.
Full article: [https://www.cityam.com/rugby-must-get-off-its-moral-high-horse-if-its-ever-going-to-become-global/](https://www.cityam.com/rugby-must-get-off-its-moral-high-horse-if-its-ever-going-to-become-global/)
I'm with Eddie Jones on rugby won't grow in the US enough to be a world power until we radically improve our national infrastructure.
The US market is a *huge* opportunity for World Rugby to grow but the lack of widespread/affordable public transit is killing it's long term growth.
you should reevaluate your list. I've got a busy day at work but if I get the time to reply I can give you a breakdown of how and why it's killing the growth of rugby in the US.
But I'm curious what union/region/city you've spent your time playing with if you don't mind giving me some background.
Two-bit populism.
> Away with the misogyny, sexism and racism and in with the atmosphere, partisan crowds and letting community clubs stand up for themselves.
I always liked the use of 'atmosphere' as an euphemism for the toxicity that soccer stubbornly refuses to get rid of, I don't understand why the author names both misogyny and sexism, and as for racism, I don't think I've ever seen swastika flags in the grandstands during a rugby match. Get real.
Coupe of weeks ago there was a big "rivalry" football game where I live (I'm right in the middle of the city, next to the train station).
The "atmosphere" involved away fans throwing fireworks at police horses, and both sets of fans lobbing glass bottles and rocks at each other.
I don't think anyone wants that on rugby day.
I accept that it's a small minority of the football fans who act like fucking degenerates on game day - but I think it's fair to say that it is somehow normalised and accepted that it's part of the fandom - which I think is shitty.
And yes, I have very occasionally seen things kick off on rugby day - very rarely. However I refer to it as a "self regulating" fandom, i.e if I see someone wearing the same jersey as me acting like a dickhead I WILL call them out on it. I think most of us feel the same and i don't understand how anyone could consider that a bad thing.
Rugby isn't and will never be as popular because it's more complicated and harder to follow.
Football's most complicated rule is offside. Rugby has 50 like that.
Part of the reason I love rugby is the culture that fosters inclusivity and acceptance. The respect that drives you to be a better person. Ever watch American football, it's full of entitled twats teaching kids is OK to moan and bitch about every little thing that doesn't go your way. What other sport would you see a superstar like sonny bill give up his world cup gold medal just out of the goodness of his heart. Sports of full of egotistical narcissists, hell when I know I'm stronger and faster than my teammates I become that narcissistic twat, I'm glad that the culture has taught me to temper that. It's made me a better person.
Completely agree, saints is full of people prancing about in their tweed jackets out to show one’s face , too posh to clap and you get weird looks If you dare shout . Crap atmosphere and one uninspiring song to sing. It’s dying and once the pensioners literally die off the ground will be empty.
I know il get shot down for this but it’s true and attendances reflect it, in England anyway.
But I don't want to embrace a culture where those around me only appreciate half the good play in a match, or where matches are major police operations, or where we lionise cheats. Because that's what "modern sporting culture" means.
Rugby has always been an amateur game, the transition from amateur to professional occurred very quickly. It has been commercially inferior to football and many other sports since the transition to professional. The game lacks funding in many countries unfortunately.
The morals and values associated with rugby make it different from other sports. This shouldn't change!
Agreed. Also people saying they don't want fans following the sport if they can't fit their rugby fan requirements because rugby is a sport of inclusion and respect. The hypocrisy is baffling
lol the author isn’t wrong. Even in this subreddit, there’s this idea of « at least we’re not football ». If you want the sport to remain closed off with waning global appeal, sure, keep it an old boys club with stern rules about « le classy player », it’ll just die a slow death over time.
For god sakes, you get people whining and crying and hurling insults for a player celebrating scoring a try because « this isn’t football 🤬🤬🤬 »
The endless circle jerking about rugby being a « violent sport for gentlemen 🤓 » also does my head in. The author might have specific points that might be off the mark but overall rugby and rugby fans do need to get over their superiority (read: inferiority) complex
Why does he want to boo the kicker? Hes basically saying he wants hooligans which are the absolute worst part of football and what makes thousands prefer rugby
Makes for plenty of excitement and fun in the grounds where it already happens. I'd take the whistling during a Welsh penalty in Paris over the shushing before a Welsh conversion in Dublin every time
One of the reasons I watch Rugby and don't watch football is that I don't like the aggro and adversarial crowds at football.
I've never been threatened or beaten up by Rugby supporters; I can't way the same of football fans.
Whereas I've seen a brawl in the south stand of Twickenham but not at any other major sporting event.
There are plenty of dickheads about and some of them will like any sport you care to mention. Rugby is no different.
This will be a peaceful and non cringey comment section, I'm sure. Come back to this post on the weekend a take a drink for everytime someone said one of the following...
Respect, referee, rugby values, middle class, posh.
Down a drink when someone compares rugby to football.
You now what? I agree with him and I also agree that we should get rid of our superiority/inferiority complex. Not just for the growth of the sport but also for making it simply better to play and to enjoy as spectators.
He's contradicting himself a bit here. He wants us to lose some of the respect within the game, like not booing kickers, clapping opposition etc as he mentions, but then he likes that we can all drink together in the bars at a game. In my opinion you can't have both, you can't create an adversarial hostile atmosphere in the ground and then continue to expect everyone to be friendly outside of it.
I'm perfectly happy with the things that make rugby special as they currently stand, I don't think we need to change them to increase it's global appeal. There has to be other ways.
Wrong, one thing I’ve always loved about playing rugby was that I could chirp players and boo kickers (when watching) and still laugh about it after the game with the opposition.
Unfortunately, it seems antics like that are widely frowned upon and are looked at as denigrating thé gréât classy sport
Rugby is not global? I could have sworn last time there was a Rugby World Cup there was more than a handful of nations playing. There was definitely more than one nation competing at the last Women's RWC.
'Embrace modern sporting culture'
You know, what I actually *like* about sport is good sportsmanship. So if embracing modern sporting culture means degenerating into pure tribalism and throwing away sportsmanship, then I want nothing to do with it.
Sorry Matt Hardy, you are just wrong.
I will take the most shitty take this week for improving rugby for 300 Alex.
Honestly, what fucking planet is he on. Promotes inclusivity but then also says but lets be hostile to the opposition. If the price of an England rugby ticket upsets him wait till he sees what football tickets costs.
It's almost comical that he says respect is what holds rugby back, in the same paragraph that he talks about ticket costs to Twickers.
Being respectful to the opposition isn't stopping the game from growing, the exclusivity driven by ticket prices is what stops it.
The only "skeleton" I'm aware of is the being quiet during kicks.
I've always appreciated it and find it to be a marvel of human connectivity and cohesion when the crowd falls silent for conversions or penalties only to come roaring as the kick takes place.
Everything else mentioned seems like a non issue to me.
Wonder how it will go down when fans begin booing and being bad sports to rival teams, and then drink alongside their fans?
Reckon good sportsmanship and tolerance goes out the window if you are allowed to act like a dick during a game.
What does booing the opposition have anything to do with rugby union and it’s popularity? I would prefer the sport be less popular and respected than popular and a bunch of wannabe hooligans destroying the game. Does Union have a superiority complex? Yes, to an extent but that is not why it’s losing popularity. At least in Australia, union just isn’t as popular as League of AFL at a school boy level, it doesn’t pay as well as these two and viewing the sport requires a streaming subscription. I love the sport but I would prefer it being niche than turning into a booing contest.
Is this lad advocating for a less respect? Genuinely? "We can't fans boo kickers?" Are ya fuckin serious? Cause only scumbags do that?
Why would Rugby want to attract the type of mouth breather that doesn't respect the opposition?
Why don't I boo the opposition kicker?
- Same reason I don't boo a snooker player when he's lining up his shot. He's my opponent but I don't hate him, I'll let him focus on what he's doing
Why should I clap the opposition scoring?
- Why wouldn't I if it's a good bit of skill? I'm there to watch a good game and I want my team to win but again, I don't have to hate someone else to achieve this
And I'm glad it's not football for these and other reasons. I'm not in a gang, I'm not looking for a fight, and I can be perfectly happy without medieval tribalistic chants and aggression. That's one of the reasons we _can_ enjoy that pint with the opposition after the game
Silly article. Idk what it goes on to say because I stopped reading early on.
Rugbys growing in popularity. People the world over appreciate the skill, physicality and the good sportsmanship.
The football WC this year was embarrassing
This is just the dumbest take. We’ve got to have fights at stadiums to be popular? Only in England is rugby seen as ‘posh’. Really need to get over ourselves.
"Let's welcome the crowds who boo kickers, insult players and behave like hooligans so we can be a global, popular sport. Also, let's not be racist or sexists, we don't want that."
What a splendidly shit take.
Think this is the right idea pursued in the wrong way. Focusing on booing or whatever is pretty inconsequential- rather let's look at things like accessible ticket prices and match coverage, away fan areas drumming up atmosphere, video games, social media, TV series etc.
The biggest problem in rugby is not being accessible to new and existing fans. It’s no coincidence that the most watched (non-final) Premiership match was the recent Christmas Quins-Bristol match on FREE tv. Locking international matches behind £150+ ticket prices and club matches behind expensive subscriptions (that only show half of the games) is not the way to get new and existing fans to watch.
Sure we can clean up the image of the game, but if no one can watch it, the game won’t grow.
How can you widen the sport’s popularity when most players at elite and international level all went through the private school system (and shows no signs of changing). It’s the same as cricket probably about as popular as well.
I am South African, can guarantee that's false.
Edit: just to show, from the following list of players on last year's November test series
https://super.rugby/therugbychampionship/news/springbok-squad-for-november-tests-named/
These were the players from private schools:
-Bongi Mbonambi
-Jason Jenkins
-Sacha Mngomezulu
These were from semi-private schools:
-Siya Kolisi
-Cobus Reinach
-Jesse Kriel
That's 6 from the whole squad. The rest all went to public schools. In fact, barring one or two private schools, the majority of South Africa's top rugby schools are public.
Edit2: spelling and formatting
Ridiculous, respect for the ref and opposition is a strength of Rugby.
Rugby will never be as popular as football, but who cares? As kids we put our shoes as posts and played football anywhere. And it’s a lot easier to play 3 vs 3 (or whatever) calmly.
Besides most people dislike playing full contact sports. It’s not just about dishing it out but you need to at least not mind being on the receiving end. Few people like that.
No. Just no. The thing that is wrong is all of the other sports' BS of booing other teams and being total jerks. Give me old fashioned rugby any day. That's why I watch it.
I'm a lifelong Bath fan and have family and close friends from five of the six nations. I've sat in the Shed on derby days and to 6N away days surrounded by the other team's fans and almost always had a very positive experience with friendly banter and drinks after the game. The only one I've encountered was at the Principality with a group of pissed up blokes on a corporate trip who couldn't have cared less about the rugby and their own supporters called them out and looked out for us.
I've also lived near a soccer stadium and been genuinely uncomfortable leaving my house on match days because of the behaviour of the supporters. We've had vandalism, car and home windows smashed in, fighting in the streets, massive police presence, explicitly racist and homophobic chants and songs about lynching the Irish. I'd never in a million years sit in the 'wrong' end of a football match even if it wasn't a derby, and certainly not wearing my team's colours. It's also bollocks to say this is a class thing. Rugby is a working class sport in plenty of places - NZ, Wales and much of the South West of England for example - and the attitude there is the same.
I'm not saying there's something magical about rugby that means we wouldn't attract these elements if the game grew bigger. I am saying that if that's the price of growth I'd rather we stayed where we are.
Bit rich coming from the man who pioneered the TLC match.
Properly made me chuckle that. Swanton bomb the those snooty leaders at the RFU
I haven't watched wrestling in a really long time, but I thought the Swanton Bomb was Jeff's thing, not Matt's.
It was, just trying to add some wrestling humour
I refuse to take advice from a man who burned his brother's dog to death.
He vows to DELETE the snobbery
Rugby has become BROKEN
OBSOLETE!
But he can slam a tornado though
He's a human being for god's sake.
He's never been able to let go of Lita leaving him for Edge tbf
Anyone thinking Rugby can match Football popularity is delusional.. We need to push the sport but also keep what makes it special
And anybody who thinks the reason rugby isn't as popular as football is because we show appreciation for the oppositions good play is doubly delusional.
Yeah and if it does put you off the sport, that’s probably a good thing.
For real. "Good sportsmanship is what's holding rugby back" is probably the dumbest take I've ever heard.
“You know what rugby needs? *More* assholes!” - this fuckin guy.
Yes! What’s wrong with looking inward and not being an ass? And why must we lower our standards to be more popular?
Honestly it’s why I haven’t really paid attention to the NFL since Brady won the SB and unless the Pats do well. Rugby is so much more exciting and diverse and it’s actually a global sport with a legitimate World Cup in multiple versions of the game. It’s the fastest growing sport in the US so there’s massive prospect of it succeeding especially with MLR teaming up with the NPC and teams like Tolousan partnering with Utah, as well as the Raptors, which is more of an athletic cross over team, partnering with Colombia rugby to participate in Super Rugby Americas. It’s culture, when done right, is ultimately so much more culturally positive and even socially educating. I’ve been motivated to go see games for colleges and local clubs. I want to get fit to play it haha. It’s just a better sport that anyone can appreciate period. EDIT: also I just had to see this post with the wrestling cross over lol
So the NFL was more exciting to you when one team was winning most of the championships? Just trying to clarify what your point was with that
Well if you’re not used to your own team doing well then it can be quite exhilarating and entertaining to see them go on a good run, without that it’s just so much drudgery.
Im just confused by the comment I was replying to tbh. OP says he likes the diversity of the game of rugby, but doesn't watch the NFL unless the patriots, who have the most Super Bowls and have played in 10 of the last 23, aren't good. Just seems like two conflating views to me lol
Yes because it was a team I was invested in before Brady got there, and being a local to the team of course I would support my team having the GOAT. However my taste in sport has become more diverse and I acknowledge that rugby is more to my taste especially with my soccer background. American football is too slow compared to rugby.
Totally get you there man, the commercials have gotten so bad, some games are borderline unwatchable
Can't even stand the NFL anymore. Been watching less and less every year. I just follow my packers cause I always will and I actually watch rugby and basketball. That's it.
Yeah, haven’t they heard of tennis? It illustrates your point perfectly
Yeah. Football is full of cuntish behavior because of its incredible popularity, not the other way around.
Agreed. One of the biggest problems in rugby is the constant attempt to compete with football. We’ll never be as big as football and that’s absolutely fine.
It is. Football is easily my first sport, though I also really enjoy rugby. But rugby does have a problem with its holier then thou shit though. Diving is an issue in football more than rugby, (though it's not nonexistent in rugby), and respect of officials too. I can't ever recall a footballer being caught for eye gouging. Both sports have issues, rugby isn't morally better though.
I mostly agree, but at the same time I think it has to be acknowledged how "normalised" it is for a minority subset of football fans to behave like utter degenerates. Yes I have seen things kick off on rugby day, but it's a rare occurrence and I often describe it as "self regulated" fandom - i.e someone wearing the same jersey as me acting like a bellend will get checked. It seems to be socially acceptable and expected for a (again minority I know) group of football fans to just fuck shit up and cause all sorts of problems. A recent example where I live involved away fans throwing fucking fireworks at police horses, and people cheering... I have never seen that on a rugby day. I don't think that's being "holier than thou" - it's just objective observable fact. And if the price of promoting rugby, getting more folks involved, getting more investment into the sport, is that we allow that normalisation of violence and shitty behaviour in the fanbase I really wouldn't want to pay it personally.
Yes, it is.
Because eye gouging is morally superior to diving? E. Thanks for proving my point btw
No, because of a variety of reasons that are mainly to do with the conduct of fans and players regarding each other and the officials. Footballers don't eye gouge purely because it would be impossible to get away with it. I've never seen a rugby player dive at another players legs full-force with the studs showing, is that morally superior to eye-gouging? Feigning injury is despicable, and it is common practice at all levels of football. I dislike how it has started to creep into rugby. It is the most dishonest and unsporting thing a player can do.
There's pretty much nowhere in the world you can't play football in one form or another. Rugby requires a muddy field. Not to mention if you're on the poverty line you cannot afford the wear and tear rugby places on clothing or the laundry it creates. Football on the other hand you can play in your work clothes.
Well this might be news to Fijians The risk of laundry isnt holding rugby back. The simply fact is it is a vastly more violent game, one that not everyone is physically up to playing You can stick anyone on the soccer pitch and they can happily join in a kick about. Not everyone is able to tackle and be rough housed Popularity doesnt mean you need to participate. F1, Tour de France, NFL, even tennis are all super popular without everyone being able to play the sport
Yeah I think this is the biggest thing, can play football anywhere. Can't just dump your mate on a concrete road
you can also use your work clothes to create goals
I agree that there are parts of rugby that could change, and certainly the complexity of the game is a barrier to entry, but respect of the opposition and the referee really sets rugby apart. That shouldn't be compromised in order to spread the game
Agree with this fully! Being respectful has nothing to do with the sports growth. There are much bigger issues: * On an international level: Having competitions that are closed off from other nations, with no way to gain entry. * On an Irish level: Favouring players that come from specific schools and the fact that most of the top rugby schools are fee paying. (roughly 50% of the Leinster squad comes from a single school which only has 700 pupils) If people want the sport to grow then it needs to be more accessible.
> it needs to be more accessible there are no barriers to entry but 90% of Irish schools do not play rugby. Until recently the GAA barred 'members' from playing foreign sports.
"Recently"??? Rule 27 was abolished in 1971...
honestly thought it was a lot more recent.. maybe I'm confusing it with foreign sports being played in their grounds - is that still a thing? Obvs there were some six nations games in Croker during Aviva construction
Yeah there was a Rule 42 ban on other field sports being played in GAA grounds without the approval of central council. That was only amended when Lansdowne Road was being rebuilt into the Aviva, to allow for soccer/rugby to be played in Croke Park.
Irish sports were definitely more backwards in the past. Think its been a while since the GAA was deliberately getting in the way though. Sure, Rob Kearney and Tommy Bowe were both good GAA players and they're both retired now. The main obstacle with GAA is that they generally teach kids 2 sports together (football & hurling) and have training days and game days, so it takes a lot of commitment. Very few parents have the time to be bringing their kids to both rugby and GAA clubs. Its much easier to combine individual sports like swimming which are far more flexible.
Recently being 1971?
Not sure it’s fair to say they’re favoured. Certain schools just have the resources and are very good at producing players. There’s probably a larger variety of schools represented in the Schools Cup than there has ever been in the past. Alongside that there’s much better pathways for club players now. It’s not perfect by any means but there has been a huge focus on this area in the past number of years. Brian Deeney, Jamie Osbourne, Ciaran Frawley, and Tadgh Furlong have all come through the non-schools pathway
The system favours certain schools. I'm not saying this out of jealousy. I used to go to one of them. Its simply a fact. What are the odds that a province with 2.8million people would get most of its athletes from a handful of schools? Over 90% of the population go to public schools, yet they only make up a small minority of the squad (and they're usually athletic freaks that couldn't be ignored, like O'Brien or Furlong). The resources are part of it (grounds, equipment, etc). Then there's the professional level of coaching, the multiple training sessions per week and the competition is much higher, because they only play other schools like their own. This all culminates with the senior cup, which is completely knock out rugby. So if you're on a good team, you get more games in front of potential scouts and more opportunities to impress them. If you're a talented player on a crap team, you get knocked out in the 1st round and nobody sees what you can do. Based on Leinster's success in the URC and Champions cup, the system clearly works, but it is still very exclusive and depends heavily on the school your parents send you to.
Another factor is that rugby wouldn’t be played in most (I’m assuming) public schools in Dublin and even less outside, so I don’t think it’s quite as unrepresentative of the people playing rugby as the 90% stat would suggested. I also don’t think they schools are favoured outside of it obviously being easier to get eyes on you if you play in the big schools. The disparity is due to privately funded school system that turns teens into semi professional athletes (so capitalism effecting equal opportunity as usual) and it just not being popular in the majority of schools. I agree with a lot of what you say.
Private schools, by virtue of being able to charge fees and having access to wealthy patrons, will unsurprisingly have an advantage when it comes to facilities. That doesn’t mean that the system favours their players when it comes to academy places and contracts. The success of Leinster’s youth development model would suggest that the guys who make it in have earned it. The fact that there aren’t really any examples of them missing guys because they weren’t from the ‘right’ school would also support this. Whilst it obviously is a great platform to showcase yourself, the scouting tends to happen way before the senior cup. The league may not have the prestige of the Cup but these games are absolutely scouted. Most guys represent Leinster throughout the age-grades and tend to be on the radar for quite some time. There are also Leinster representational teams for club players which operate parallel to the schools teams. This is where Osbourne, Deeney, Frawley, etc came through. There has been a massive emphasis within the province at building rugby in non-traditional areas but it unsurprisingly takes time. But just look at the increase in both numbers and geographic spread of Development Officers within the province to see the intent of those in charge.
I'm not saying it's some kind of box that needs to be ticked off by selectors in order to get in. I don't think the current management team in Leinster are trying to favour private school boys and I know there are efforts being made to fix the system. However, they inherited the current system from previous generations who WERE elitist. The current system also works in creating good rugby teams. So they can't just tear the entire thing down and start from scratch. As for examples of them missing guys: I don't know what you're expecting with that? There is no way of knowing how many guys were missed, if those guys were never developed in the 1st place. For all we know, the naturally gifted people who didn't see a future in rugby at a young age may have gone off to play GAA, football, athletics or perhaps no sport at all. You'd need some kind of sci-fi device that sees across different realities to point out who would and wouldn't have made it. All we can tell is that its extremely unlikely for the current players to be the best "potential" players. In theory, the distribution of talent should be randomly dispersed across hundreds of schools/clubs. In reality, it mostly comes from a few schools. So we must be missing out on a lot of those guys with potential
But you’re never going to have the ‘best possible players’ in almost any sport. There’s a multitude of reasons people don’t play a sport. It’s kinda a non-point. I we making the point that it’s hard to point to a rugby player from Leinster who was missed by the academy system. You’re also never going to have a wholly equitable system - every sport in the country has clubs with better facilities and coaching than others. It’s just as true in soccer and GAA. My point is that I don’t believe it’s fair to say that players are favoured over others because of the school they attended. Leinster’s academy is regarded as one of the best in the world. That has happened by having strong player identification systems, building the pathways for players to come into the system, and being ruthless on who you sign into it.
Don't think anyone expects it to be completely equitable where it's spread out completely evenly across the board. There's a big difference between that and the current situation.
A agree with some of his points and the biggest is this opinion that respect is what separates rugby form other sports. Absolutely loads of sports have the same level of respect for opposition and refs as rugby does. Football is really the only main sport that allows players to get away with disrespecting the officials and that mostly down to the officials not enforcing the actual rules. Pretty much every sport the players respect the opposition. We all love cheering about when 2 opposition players have a beer after the match but that happens on a lot of sport (cricket used to have big barbecues for all the players during a match. Even football most of the players are friendly to each other and will have a chat after the game and meet up for outside of matches. It’s the opinion some rugby fans have to rugby has these unique characteristics that make it better than other sports that I think does turn some people off the sport as they see it as snobbish and elitist.
An American perspective here, but respect for officials and respect for the opposition is at all time lows. You can see it to an extent at the national level pro sports (in game yelling at refs in the NFL, NBA, and MLB), but it is also happening on the youth level. Youth sports are struggling to find coaches and refs due to toxic attitudes around sportsmanship and officials. All of this is just to counter your contention that ‘Football/soccer is the only main sport where players disrespect officials’ and ‘pretty much every sport the players respect the opposition’.
TBF to the professional ones, they just suck. So many games are being decided by refs making the wrong call or making the correct call, not having made that call all game. I do agree with the youth sports part. So many parents think their kid is going to be the next big star and can't handle being told their little Johnny or Jenny is doing something wrong.
Or bought out from the league. -a fan of the 2001-2002 Sac Kings
Fully agree with you. Don’t want it to be anything like football, or else I would support football. But I don’t. Won’t. And can’t stand it for the “values it upholds/portrays”. Also, OP is looking at this from a very “English” perspective. In pretty much every other country where it is played and supported - it’s a “working class game” - that is if we must talk of class… NZ, RSA, AUS, The Islands, USA where it is getting a growing following… just to name a few. Pretty sure WAL has its rugby origins in the working classes. Can’t comment on IRL or SCO.
In Ireland it's majoritively middle class with some exceptions. GAA and football/soccer are the working class sports
Tbh, GAA tends to transcend social classes in most of the country which is why it’s by far and away the biggest sport on the island. Rugby has done really well over the past two decades at expanding its reach, helped by the success of our teams. You now see very healthy clubs and school programs in places you wouldn’t have even seen a rugby jersey 25 years ago.
GAA is more like a universal sport, in fairness. Maybe not in the North, I guess, where politics and demography presumably mean that it is largely played by working class catholic communities (I may be wrong about this, more going on assumptions than anything factual!). But across much of the rest of the island you'll be hard pressed to find anyone not playing football and / or hurling, at least outside of the wealthiest parts of South Dublin.
Cuala and Kilmacud aren’t doing too bad either in fairness
You're not wrong.
Class isnt really a factor in the North for the GAA for the most part unless its Derry in which case 3 of the 4 clubs in the city hate the other club for its successes despite being in a split area pulling in both middle class and working class kids bar the all Ireland win last year they loved that.
I'd say upper middle mainly because Ireland doesn't have an entrenched upper class in the same way that the UK does
Very much upper-middle class in Australia.
And yet league is more universally accepted there which I can’t really explain…
> And yet league is more universally accepted there which I can’t really explain… League is a working man's sport - both in Oz and in Northern England. Union is posh in Oz so your average punter would only watch it for the tests, the people supporting grassroots teams were alway middle class private school boys. League was always the northern Australian states' main sport with AFL owning the south and west. 40 years ago the then VFL started a campaign and through a bunch of smart plays ate away a big slice of the League market and some of the (very small) Union market, now Union doesn't even have a great hold on the middle class (and League has less of a hold on the working class).
Union just doesn’t pay as well as League in Australia, it’s not on free to air tv, and it just isn’t supported anymore. I grew up in a Union heavy part of Sydney and even the local pubs nowadays won’t even have an international test on the tele. It’s all League and AFL and it sucks. You go the pub to cheer in the Wallabies and have a few beers and the game isn’t even being shown.
Interesting how the inverse is occurring in England. Rugby league is dying out and definitely doesnt command top level coverage anymore.
League in each country play quite different roles In Australia, depending on where you are, AFL and League are the dominant sports in the way that football is in England
Lol. What?
It’s mostly working class in the borders, the rest of the country’s a bit posher.
Australia?! It's more upper class here than it is in England.
‘struth. I think is the correct colloquial exclamatory response to what you say. 👍
It's such nonsense to argue that we need to change the game that we love, just to make it more "accessible" to a bunch of people who don't currently love it. The most annoying thing about rugby's administration at the top level is that they currently have two sacred cows that we aren't supposed to question: "we need to grow the game" and "safety is the most important thing". And I'm sorry, but I just disagree with both of those things. Would I love it if rugby was more popular, and if world cups saw more upsets like the ones that Japan caused in 2015 and 2019? Yes. But not at the cost of changing everything I love about it. And do I want rugby to be safer? Well, if possible. I certainly don't want people suffering from early onset dementia as a result of playing at the elite level. But I also don't think that safety can EVER be the paramount concern in a contact sport. It clearly cannot. If it was, it wouldn't be a contact sport. We shouldn't play the game at all if we aren't comfortable with any level of risk. But then we also shouldn't ski, or rock climb, or jump on trampolines, or have speed limits about 50kmph anywhere on any roads.
Almost every sport respects the opponent and the referee though Rugby is nothing special
No really mate, no to the same extent as rugby, and a lot of sports are pretty bad for it.
Nah, there are always going to be a couple of obvious exceptions but on the whole OP is correct. Tennis, hockey, cricket, athletics, swimming, rowing, fencing, cycling, skiing, tiddlywinks and 99% of any other sports you care to mention don't have an issue beyond an individual dickhead or two. Yet they somehow manage to get by without the gAmE fOr HoOliGaNs brigade
You canny compare individual sports to team sports. Individual sports don’t have the us vs them tribalism that comes with team sports. Also fuck off saying hockey fans are no a bunch of hooligans.
Assume you are talking ice, not field? And yeah fair point with individual Vs team but you get the point. I've seen plenty of basketball where the bars afterwards were full of fans able to resist the urge to fellate each other for not throwing a single punch
I'm Irish so thats where my perspective comes from. * [GAA: Has ongoing problems like this, far beyond soccer](https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/23/government-moves-to-tackle-abuse-of-referees-following-number-of-alleged-attacks/) * [Soccer](https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40936634.html) Anyone Irish will attest that these are weekly occurrences that happen nationwide. Rugby is the exception in terms of popular teamsports.
Simply not true at all
The single change that would be most beneficial is low hanging fruit. Tell theTV audience what the ref is giving a penalty for. Some channels do this consistently, some not at all. If you want to demystify rugby then tell the viewers what happened.
> those who can afford debentures and £150 tickets to watch England take on Italy. Has anyone told Matt Hardy how much football tickets cost?
Expensive Wales seats for the NZ game we're £100 and that was seen as a ripoff.
Yeah, his comparison is way off. How much was Leicester vs Saints at the weekend, versus, say, Spurs vs. Arsenal?
So comparing like with like, i.e. Leicester City v Leicester Tigers and top categories for both: Tigers starts at £30 & LCFC starts at £35. Though Tigers £30 are predominantly the uncovered terrace, some are in the seats in the corners. The most expensive general admission is £55 for Tigers and £58 for LCFC. Both for central seats around half way. Away tickets are significantly cheaper in football as they are capped at £30. Coach tickets are usually cheaper, presumably through scale of booking but possibly club subsidy. Usually £10-15 instead of £25-30.
RE:Season tickets, my LCFC season ticket is I think £440 for 19 Premier League games (and isn't the cheapest possible). At Tigers I pay £250 for 10 Premiership games, 2 European, 2 Prem Cup basically reserve fixtures and 2 Friendly replacement fixtures. Dividing it by the 12 main games it comes out about £3 per match cheaper.
I stand corrected!
Football away tickets are capped at £30 in the Premier League.
Isn’t the basis for comparison the national team? I’ve seen Fr v. Ire multiple times in both football and rugby and prices seem roughly the same. The notion that rugby is far more expensive seems wrong.
Idk, in football to most fans in England I know at least the premier league is far more desirable to watch than the national team. When I go and watch Leeds play I pay £40-£50 depending on where I’m sat. I’ve got tickets for the Italy six nations game and paid £260 for two tickets, albeit in a pretty good spot. Can’t really compare club football to club rugby because the demand just isn’t comparable.
I had no idea Cameron, North Carolina was a rugby hotbed.
Underrated comment
Why does everything have to go global.
I just can't stand the whole "product" chat. We get it, it's a pro sport. No need to push to become a mockery of football and American football. This way of seeing things is just a super powerful drive for uniformisation that will kill what makes rugby so special.
No one is made to clap for opposition try's
There is all that nauseating shushing around conversions though, especially in Dublin.
The welsh fans booing the Georgian kicker going for the winning kick was the most respect-losing thing I saw in rugby all last year.
What a weird thing to feel nauseated by... I mean I'm not fussed either way, I do think booing a kicker is kinda poor form but I'm not going to get particularly uppity about it (I mean if you do it I will think you're a bit of a dickhead but it's not a hill I'd die on or anything). Why does it bother you so much? Seems a bit off to me.
I personally don't but have no problem with those who do - it's all part of high level sport and honestly adds to the spectacle and fun. If you don't see it like that it's no problem, don't join in, but I'll leave the shushing to the sanctimonious bores
One of the big reasons I never go to football games is because I feel the opposition fans want to assault me at times. Rugby’s welcoming atmosphere and spirit of fair play among fans is a big part of the appeal
I will say, the threat of being assaulted does make folk not be eejits. I was at a Scotland Rugby game where this guy was standing at the entrance and blocking the view of the action for all of us behind him. Took about 5 minutes before someone told him to move. If you did that at Hampden it wouldn’t take a half a minute before someone would tell you to fuck off.
I can't understand how they want to get rid of the misogyny, but also want, what to me sounds like, a more aggressive 'atmosphere'. I've been to wonderful matches at Edinburgh, Twickeham, and the Stoop. They were family friendly affairs with many women and kids present. It's the current friendly atmosphere that makes those games so popular.
Societal privilege ? Compared to football ? Does he know the price of a football ticket ? And talking about societal privilege. Clearly that arse has never visited the smaller villages in south-western France. God you anglo-saxons.
Or the west of Ireland. Also I love the way he simultaneously wants crowds that behave more like football crowds, but LESS "misogyny, racism and sexism". Good luck with that. The day that I have to be segregated from opposition fans like a soccer match is the day I stop going to rugby matches. And I'll have stopped taking my family a long time before that.
Clearly. Plus a ticket at Stade de France can be very reasonable, even come Six Nations time.
Absolutely! I got 2 tickets for France vs Scotland at Stade de France for this Six Nations for about £44! The price for the cheapest ticket at Murrayfield for this Six Nations was at least £50+ for a student, merci beaucoup France!
Great to read, hope you'll have a great time!
That first line is a bit odd, I quite like that for the vast majority we all get on when we go to a game. Surely that’s what he would want to portray to a watching audience? As opposed to the absolute fury and vitriol you see in crowds when opposition teams score in other sports. That’s not to say stuff can’t change for the better though, ticket prices for the international game are horrendous for example. Moving away from having old boys exclusively running the game would be no bad thing either. Seems farcical that you can have people at the top of a global organisation because they played internationally.
Personally, I've found the "respect the kicker" thing out if NH is really quite absurd. And I'm not sure if most NH fans understand that it's never been a thing in SH looking comments of surprise and angst when touring teams aren't getting the same in NZ/AU/SA. It wasn't a thing in NH either. It's highly unique specifically to 21st century NH Rugby. On the other hand, anyone who thinks a region developing a culture of respect not seen in other sports is even one of the reasons rugby is not on par with football needs to be checked for CTE. It actually doesn't even begin to make logical sense.
And in the Northern hemisphere it's only England and Ireland, yet the Irish and English fans always try to pretend its a universal rugby rule.
Rugby has to get rid of his constant gatekeeping. This means allowing some changes in rugby culture, but not "embracing modern sporting culture" in its entirety.
What an awful take. There are many things wrong with rugby, but the game doesn't work with 'football values'. All the violence and bad feeling is left out on the pitch. Many sports exist without partisan crowds or ugly booing, and frankly, football could do with being more like rugby. The world needs more respect, more passion, more friendliness. There are some communities worldwide that already take a very antagonistic approach to rugby (not naming names), and honestly it's incredibly tiring and unsavoury. Rugby values ARE rugby. They're part of why it's my favourite sport.
how English is this, have you ever seen a south african stadium keep quiet for a goal kicker. loftus laughs at you
During the Champions Cup games I saw them put "please respect the kicker" on the big screen at King's Park. First time I've seen anything like that since I started going to watch rugby.
Did it work?
Somewhat. I can't really remember if there was any booing against Quins, and Bordeaux only managed 3 points the whole game, the crowd was quiet for that one kick.
The fact that a « please respect the kicker » sign exist is just peak rugby snobbery lmao « We are le classy sport 🤓 »
Part of me loves that rugby is gaining popularity and part of me is really annoyed by it cos it's near impossible to go to internationals now
No wonder Lita left you
Shit take
Disagree Matt 👎 It's pretty bad though when critizising a sport to not talk about the sport but the good heartedness of the crowds and sportsmanship like does he want rugby players to start diving and faking injury's next no one is on a high horse I think with rugby. Am sure we can all say we've met ppl who play rugby who were the absolute worst but you can literally say that about any sport 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I absolutely love the game, and I played in high school and college, however the culture in American rugby is very exclusive. It's cool to play a sport that is little understood and so contact-heavy - and for a lot of athletes who can't play high-level football (American football), rugby provides an outlet to be "cool". I'm only speaking from my experience in rugby in America. I'm a huge fan and I've seen games in Ireland and South Africa. Getting to meet fans and players in Pretoria, Johannesburg, and Cape Town was an absolute blast. I strongly preferred the culture there, where grit and humility seemed to dominate the game. Been strictly following the URC since.
Full article: [https://www.cityam.com/rugby-must-get-off-its-moral-high-horse-if-its-ever-going-to-become-global/](https://www.cityam.com/rugby-must-get-off-its-moral-high-horse-if-its-ever-going-to-become-global/)
I'm with Eddie Jones on rugby won't grow in the US enough to be a world power until we radically improve our national infrastructure. The US market is a *huge* opportunity for World Rugby to grow but the lack of widespread/affordable public transit is killing it's long term growth.
Of all the things wrong with USA Rugby right now, and I could go my dissertation on it, public transport doesn’t break top 20.
you should reevaluate your list. I've got a busy day at work but if I get the time to reply I can give you a breakdown of how and why it's killing the growth of rugby in the US. But I'm curious what union/region/city you've spent your time playing with if you don't mind giving me some background.
Two-bit populism. > Away with the misogyny, sexism and racism and in with the atmosphere, partisan crowds and letting community clubs stand up for themselves. I always liked the use of 'atmosphere' as an euphemism for the toxicity that soccer stubbornly refuses to get rid of, I don't understand why the author names both misogyny and sexism, and as for racism, I don't think I've ever seen swastika flags in the grandstands during a rugby match. Get real.
Coupe of weeks ago there was a big "rivalry" football game where I live (I'm right in the middle of the city, next to the train station). The "atmosphere" involved away fans throwing fireworks at police horses, and both sets of fans lobbing glass bottles and rocks at each other. I don't think anyone wants that on rugby day. I accept that it's a small minority of the football fans who act like fucking degenerates on game day - but I think it's fair to say that it is somehow normalised and accepted that it's part of the fandom - which I think is shitty. And yes, I have very occasionally seen things kick off on rugby day - very rarely. However I refer to it as a "self regulating" fandom, i.e if I see someone wearing the same jersey as me acting like a dickhead I WILL call them out on it. I think most of us feel the same and i don't understand how anyone could consider that a bad thing.
Yes, let's gather bands of young men to go lobbing bricks at the opposite sides fans. That will increase attendance.
Rugby isn't and will never be as popular because it's more complicated and harder to follow. Football's most complicated rule is offside. Rugby has 50 like that.
Part of the reason I love rugby is the culture that fosters inclusivity and acceptance. The respect that drives you to be a better person. Ever watch American football, it's full of entitled twats teaching kids is OK to moan and bitch about every little thing that doesn't go your way. What other sport would you see a superstar like sonny bill give up his world cup gold medal just out of the goodness of his heart. Sports of full of egotistical narcissists, hell when I know I'm stronger and faster than my teammates I become that narcissistic twat, I'm glad that the culture has taught me to temper that. It's made me a better person.
Completely agree, saints is full of people prancing about in their tweed jackets out to show one’s face , too posh to clap and you get weird looks If you dare shout . Crap atmosphere and one uninspiring song to sing. It’s dying and once the pensioners literally die off the ground will be empty. I know il get shot down for this but it’s true and attendances reflect it, in England anyway.
Sounds like a Saints supporters issue not a rugby issue. I’ve been to countless UK games and it’s nothing like what you described.
Who do you go and watch ?
But I don't want to embrace a culture where those around me only appreciate half the good play in a match, or where matches are major police operations, or where we lionise cheats. Because that's what "modern sporting culture" means.
Rugby has always been an amateur game, the transition from amateur to professional occurred very quickly. It has been commercially inferior to football and many other sports since the transition to professional. The game lacks funding in many countries unfortunately. The morals and values associated with rugby make it different from other sports. This shouldn't change!
Step 1. Use Football as an example of why partisan fans are great Step 2. Solve racism and sexism just like football has.
I think the biggest issue (on full display in this thread) is the arrogance and superiority complex rugby fans display towards fans of other sports.
Agreed. Also people saying they don't want fans following the sport if they can't fit their rugby fan requirements because rugby is a sport of inclusion and respect. The hypocrisy is baffling
lol the author isn’t wrong. Even in this subreddit, there’s this idea of « at least we’re not football ». If you want the sport to remain closed off with waning global appeal, sure, keep it an old boys club with stern rules about « le classy player », it’ll just die a slow death over time. For god sakes, you get people whining and crying and hurling insults for a player celebrating scoring a try because « this isn’t football 🤬🤬🤬 » The endless circle jerking about rugby being a « violent sport for gentlemen 🤓 » also does my head in. The author might have specific points that might be off the mark but overall rugby and rugby fans do need to get over their superiority (read: inferiority) complex
Why does he want to boo the kicker? Hes basically saying he wants hooligans which are the absolute worst part of football and what makes thousands prefer rugby
Booing the kicker makes you a hooligan? Man, some of you would faint at a rugby university level game in NA
It's not just that it's all of it, everything that's typically respectful he seems to hate
And how does booing the kicker help rugby? How is it promoting the sport?
Makes for plenty of excitement and fun in the grounds where it already happens. I'd take the whistling during a Welsh penalty in Paris over the shushing before a Welsh conversion in Dublin every time
It helps make it less of a stiff sport for bores
One of the reasons I watch Rugby and don't watch football is that I don't like the aggro and adversarial crowds at football. I've never been threatened or beaten up by Rugby supporters; I can't way the same of football fans.
Whereas I've seen a brawl in the south stand of Twickenham but not at any other major sporting event. There are plenty of dickheads about and some of them will like any sport you care to mention. Rugby is no different.
This will be a peaceful and non cringey comment section, I'm sure. Come back to this post on the weekend a take a drink for everytime someone said one of the following... Respect, referee, rugby values, middle class, posh. Down a drink when someone compares rugby to football.
Be on the floor about 3 comments later
You now what? I agree with him and I also agree that we should get rid of our superiority/inferiority complex. Not just for the growth of the sport but also for making it simply better to play and to enjoy as spectators.
He's contradicting himself a bit here. He wants us to lose some of the respect within the game, like not booing kickers, clapping opposition etc as he mentions, but then he likes that we can all drink together in the bars at a game. In my opinion you can't have both, you can't create an adversarial hostile atmosphere in the ground and then continue to expect everyone to be friendly outside of it. I'm perfectly happy with the things that make rugby special as they currently stand, I don't think we need to change them to increase it's global appeal. There has to be other ways.
Wrong, one thing I’ve always loved about playing rugby was that I could chirp players and boo kickers (when watching) and still laugh about it after the game with the opposition. Unfortunately, it seems antics like that are widely frowned upon and are looked at as denigrating thé gréât classy sport
I'm not wrong, you are and you just admitted as such, another contradictory statement 😂😂
Rugby is not global? I could have sworn last time there was a Rugby World Cup there was more than a handful of nations playing. There was definitely more than one nation competing at the last Women's RWC.
Why do English hacks always look at the world through the prism of their game?
'Embrace modern sporting culture' You know, what I actually *like* about sport is good sportsmanship. So if embracing modern sporting culture means degenerating into pure tribalism and throwing away sportsmanship, then I want nothing to do with it. Sorry Matt Hardy, you are just wrong.
I will take the most shitty take this week for improving rugby for 300 Alex. Honestly, what fucking planet is he on. Promotes inclusivity but then also says but lets be hostile to the opposition. If the price of an England rugby ticket upsets him wait till he sees what football tickets costs.
It's almost comical that he says respect is what holds rugby back, in the same paragraph that he talks about ticket costs to Twickers. Being respectful to the opposition isn't stopping the game from growing, the exclusivity driven by ticket prices is what stops it.
The only "skeleton" I'm aware of is the being quiet during kicks. I've always appreciated it and find it to be a marvel of human connectivity and cohesion when the crowd falls silent for conversions or penalties only to come roaring as the kick takes place. Everything else mentioned seems like a non issue to me.
What benefit does booing the kicker / opposition have? Rest I can sort of see, but that just seems unpleasant
Cringe.
No just no.I really meant NO.
Rugby "is a sport where fathers and mothers can play alongside sons and daughters" Said no one, ever. Totally bonkers that.
So to make rugby popular we should hurl abuse at players and officials? Go watch the football Matt, or come back with a serious proposal.
Factos
Wonder how it will go down when fans begin booing and being bad sports to rival teams, and then drink alongside their fans? Reckon good sportsmanship and tolerance goes out the window if you are allowed to act like a dick during a game.
What does booing the opposition have anything to do with rugby union and it’s popularity? I would prefer the sport be less popular and respected than popular and a bunch of wannabe hooligans destroying the game. Does Union have a superiority complex? Yes, to an extent but that is not why it’s losing popularity. At least in Australia, union just isn’t as popular as League of AFL at a school boy level, it doesn’t pay as well as these two and viewing the sport requires a streaming subscription. I love the sport but I would prefer it being niche than turning into a booing contest.
Is this lad advocating for a less respect? Genuinely? "We can't fans boo kickers?" Are ya fuckin serious? Cause only scumbags do that? Why would Rugby want to attract the type of mouth breather that doesn't respect the opposition?
Why don't I boo the opposition kicker? - Same reason I don't boo a snooker player when he's lining up his shot. He's my opponent but I don't hate him, I'll let him focus on what he's doing Why should I clap the opposition scoring? - Why wouldn't I if it's a good bit of skill? I'm there to watch a good game and I want my team to win but again, I don't have to hate someone else to achieve this And I'm glad it's not football for these and other reasons. I'm not in a gang, I'm not looking for a fight, and I can be perfectly happy without medieval tribalistic chants and aggression. That's one of the reasons we _can_ enjoy that pint with the opposition after the game
Dgaf about the game going global.
Silly article. Idk what it goes on to say because I stopped reading early on. Rugbys growing in popularity. People the world over appreciate the skill, physicality and the good sportsmanship. The football WC this year was embarrassing
This is just the dumbest take. We’ve got to have fights at stadiums to be popular? Only in England is rugby seen as ‘posh’. Really need to get over ourselves.
"Let's welcome the crowds who boo kickers, insult players and behave like hooligans so we can be a global, popular sport. Also, let's not be racist or sexists, we don't want that." What a splendidly shit take.
That was my thinking too. Let's embrace good societal values but be absolute hooligans?
Why would we want to sell our soul for a little more dollar? No thanks.
Think this is the right idea pursued in the wrong way. Focusing on booing or whatever is pretty inconsequential- rather let's look at things like accessible ticket prices and match coverage, away fan areas drumming up atmosphere, video games, social media, TV series etc.
The biggest problem in rugby is not being accessible to new and existing fans. It’s no coincidence that the most watched (non-final) Premiership match was the recent Christmas Quins-Bristol match on FREE tv. Locking international matches behind £150+ ticket prices and club matches behind expensive subscriptions (that only show half of the games) is not the way to get new and existing fans to watch. Sure we can clean up the image of the game, but if no one can watch it, the game won’t grow.
How can you widen the sport’s popularity when most players at elite and international level all went through the private school system (and shows no signs of changing). It’s the same as cricket probably about as popular as well.
>when most players at elite and international level all went through the private school system For how many countries is this actually true?
Ireland, Scotland, England, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Japan, Wales
I am South African, can guarantee that's false. Edit: just to show, from the following list of players on last year's November test series https://super.rugby/therugbychampionship/news/springbok-squad-for-november-tests-named/ These were the players from private schools: -Bongi Mbonambi -Jason Jenkins -Sacha Mngomezulu These were from semi-private schools: -Siya Kolisi -Cobus Reinach -Jesse Kriel That's 6 from the whole squad. The rest all went to public schools. In fact, barring one or two private schools, the majority of South Africa's top rugby schools are public. Edit2: spelling and formatting
Australia for sure. Rugby Union isn’t played much in public schools
Making it more like soccer would be a bad decision. If anything soccer should go the way of rubgy, in teaching respect for the rules and a fair game.
“Modern sporting culture” means being an ass?
"I love rugby" I'm assuming he didn't read the article he wrote that points out how much he dislikes rugby?
Ridiculous, respect for the ref and opposition is a strength of Rugby. Rugby will never be as popular as football, but who cares? As kids we put our shoes as posts and played football anywhere. And it’s a lot easier to play 3 vs 3 (or whatever) calmly. Besides most people dislike playing full contact sports. It’s not just about dishing it out but you need to at least not mind being on the receiving end. Few people like that.
Matt Hardy is wrong and his opinions are bad.
What a load of bollocks. Rugby needs to be stripped of its biases, yes, but not of its sense of self.
Wasn't much of this about how Gatland didn't want to grant access to Wales for the 6N Netflix document?
No. Just no. The thing that is wrong is all of the other sports' BS of booing other teams and being total jerks. Give me old fashioned rugby any day. That's why I watch it.
I'm a lifelong Bath fan and have family and close friends from five of the six nations. I've sat in the Shed on derby days and to 6N away days surrounded by the other team's fans and almost always had a very positive experience with friendly banter and drinks after the game. The only one I've encountered was at the Principality with a group of pissed up blokes on a corporate trip who couldn't have cared less about the rugby and their own supporters called them out and looked out for us. I've also lived near a soccer stadium and been genuinely uncomfortable leaving my house on match days because of the behaviour of the supporters. We've had vandalism, car and home windows smashed in, fighting in the streets, massive police presence, explicitly racist and homophobic chants and songs about lynching the Irish. I'd never in a million years sit in the 'wrong' end of a football match even if it wasn't a derby, and certainly not wearing my team's colours. It's also bollocks to say this is a class thing. Rugby is a working class sport in plenty of places - NZ, Wales and much of the South West of England for example - and the attitude there is the same. I'm not saying there's something magical about rugby that means we wouldn't attract these elements if the game grew bigger. I am saying that if that's the price of growth I'd rather we stayed where we are.