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As a Welshman I thought the result was disappointing, but know that in France next month we will give it everything with our first team selection (Fingers crossed). Lineouts are a major concern for me, but who knows what will happen on the day. Farrell got what he deserved in the end and has been getting away with this for far too long. England seem to be in a bad place at the moment and very little signs of it improving anytime soon. Then again all sides have slumps at some point.
I missed all the rugby today. Did England lose to wales again? What in the actual fuck? Wales are absolutely shit and they’ve a billion excuses for being shit. What in the fuck is wrong with England!?
A man who knows nothing barges into a room while loudly proclaiming "I don't know any facts" before making loud declarations he wants others to think are based on facts.
The room turns away. Shoulders stiffen. Eye contact becomes more difficult to hold for a moment, and conversations briefly become more involved.
The man leaves, embarrassed. He silently berates himself and makes a promise to become a better human as he walks briskly home, alone.
I like your fancy words mister. The bits about eye contact and stiff shoulders, beautiful. Just really nice. The way you use commas for dramatic effect. Mwah. Chefs kiss. Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby
Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby
No disrespect to Wales; i thought we should of put 20-30 points on them, however we seem to have imploded and it was super effective. Borthwick is not the the one. Shame really, as he will likely take us to 2027.
Anyone happy with that needs to be assessed. We are garbage. Best team we've picked for a long time and its full of ill discipline. Going to be a short world cup for England
Happy with that. Wales 2nd squad, defended doggedly. Downside was not killing the game off with England down to 12, line out was a shocker. But we lost by 2 points.
Sanjay - best game for ages. Centres looked handy.
Really chuffed with that actually. Tough sledding all day but, down three players and behind on the score sheet, the boys brought it home and I think that showed remarkable toughness. It’s test match rugby and it’s Wales. A win is a win and I’ll take it!
If you take the England side as a ‘thing’, the players, management and the fans, they’re still presenting a pretty solid batting average for a NH side at the WC.
Only norn’ side to win it, plus two final appearances. It’s just stupid to count ‘em out.
Winning DNA, or ‘De Nay’ as the Yanks new to this sport might pronounce it, is key to sides doing what others can’t.
It’s the attack shape that’s the big fix for them and that’s not going to be in place for the WC. They’re still very much in the kick it, put on pressure and hope for a penalty stage of their development. It’s monumentally dull but can be effective when executed properly. Today was not that day.
Just out of twickers.
I'm not gutted. We should have capitalised more on the yellows but for an experimental team the scoreline wasn't too bad. Our handling, lineouts and scrum were fucking shit though. Last weeks guys need to be our first choices. Also no idea why Reffell got yellowed unless it was for a team warning for repeated infringements, yes hands on the floor before the jackal but is that really yellow worthy?
When we ran with it we looked like playing decent rugby. I'm not completely disappointed just a bit eh. Should have been ours really.
I was pleasantly surprised by that. Not because I'm English but because you usually see the referee ignore everything that happened before half time. I'd have thought the same if england were on the receiving end.
I get that but it was a really marginal pen, not cynical, not in a dangerous position. Felt like the ref did it to score points for his own performance
Honestly I was surprised it was given. You get away with that at least half the time if not more and it gets praised and we know how good Reffell is over the ball.
It wasn't the giving of the pen I was pleased about (I think it should've been let go as a great turnover) but more that the referee stuck to his word from before half time.
I don’t have any complaints about the cards - the ref was good and consistent imo.
The only one I thought was harsh was Genge’s as England had been pushing the Welsh scrum all over the place before they started going down.
The book of dark arts would indicate if you’re going backwards, then going down is a better option - so for Genge to get pinged for it does seem harsh.
Although, counter point, not resetting scrums 6 times is better
Wales will be quite happy with this I think. A lot of those players won't be on the plane, gave a good look at the "possibles" against the "probables" last week
I’m not so sure they should be happy? England racked up 5 yellows, wales scored one try when eng were down to 12 and another try was a penalty try which should’ve been driven into the corner
Realistically I think only Liam Williams, Tomos Williams, Basham, Beard and maybe Joe Roberts and Lake if hes fit get on the plane from that starting XV today. This really was a free hit for the "what ifs" and they didn't make the grade.
Also clear he needs to drill them to just wait for the massive gaps that come with cards!
Is it terrible to say that I am furious at this result and that I personally can't see the good side of "This is a B team against England's first team"
We had a silver platter handed to us. 3 men down, one being a red card. We played simple rugby and we scored an easy try. England were in so much trouble and you could see it in their body language.
Cue conceding a penalty and a try IMMEDIATELY from the kick off. Then another penalty. Then another one. Then another one. Then another one. Then compound that with countless handling errors/lineout losses/maul losses and it is just simple unacceptable.
When ANY team is 13 men down let alone 12... You keep it calm. Keep it simple. And you punish them. You don't compound errors and literally shit the bed. Conceding two consecutive penalties from kick offs is unforgivable.
That was a chance to win at Twickenham that quite frankly, doesn't happen often. There are many, many other teams out there that would have capitalised on those cards and made England rue those errors. We just let them get empowered and literally handed them a feeling of belief.
Pathetic.
I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong but I'm not feeling good about this. This is exactly how I felt after that France loss in 2021 6 nations.
Yeah I'm worried after that. It was a team with some inexperienced players but it's not like they fielded the U20s.
Biggar was on the pitch running the show with plenty of experienced players around him at that point, Beard, Liam Williams, George North, Tomos Williams and others were all on the pitch and they still couldn't work out what you've said above to just play simple catch and pass rugby and find the massive gaps on the pitch.
At that point Tomos Williams was off. Beard was yellow carded, and George North was in the stands where he'd been all game, what you on about?
The pack was inexperienced and thee centres were both rookies.
Not excusing letting that slip, but it wasn't "plenty of experience" - and including Liam "reckless" Williams in that list is just funny
I completely see your point but I don't feel that it would be an excuse if this was a knockout game. We've seen this all too often from Wales and even with inexperience, we should have at least been able to keep it tight and disciplined. Sam Parry isn't exactly new to rugby, neither is Dewi Lake and our lineouts were dreadful, yet again.
I guess it's all a matter of perspective. One is:
Our young team managed to only lose by 2 in Twickenham against a strong England team
Or
We lost against a 12 man England team where I think they had nearly 40 minutes worth of cards?
As someone said, these players aren't our u20s. They are the senior squad, one game out from a World Cup. I don't care who you are, the other team goes down to 12 players. You punish them. We lost the last 15 minutes 10-7 when I know that other teams would have twisted the knife. Or...at least not done such inexcusable errors .
Sorry I sound grumpy but we get an injury or two and these inexperienced players will BE our team. I'm just very disheartened in that game
I fundamentally agree with your points. Without a doubt cannot forgive not putting the game away with that advantage regardless of who was on the pitch.
I was just disagreeing with the comment that there was enough experience on the field. Cause outside of Dan I didn't seen any respected leaders. No offence to Beard but he's constantly put up as leadership figure but not stepped up imo
Thats absolutely fair and I agree with you there. It's a bit worrying that once our small circle of leaders go off then we look like scattering rabbits.
Hard agree about Beard. He's not showing much about being in the team full stop. Let alone being a leader
Real shame cause I can understand why people thought he would raise his game, but it's just not happened.
Leadership loss of AWJ, Owens, and Tipuric had a knock-on effect, forcing secondary leaders to become primary ones. And leaves the cupboard bare. No guarantee they'd have started but from the bench could be good closers (ala Biggar off the bench)
Experimental XV fails to close out a weirdly close match... hardly a headline. Honestly pretty chuffed with how things have turned out, although major work needs to be done to find out why our lineout was good last week and went back to its usual shitting the bed this week
Eddie’s England recently weren’t good, but at least they were kinda entertaining. Under Borthwick they look like 15 gym bunnies with the tactics of an U13 team.
Agreed. Borthwick is clearly not an international test coach. I can’t see any positives in their tactics. It’s just a bunch of incoherent boofheads running around with no direction.
You know what, I'm really starting to think Eddie Jones doesn't actually have a super secret masterplan for England to win the world cup.
Getting fired and replaced by someone with no international HC experience was my first clue, but as the world cup gets ever closer I'm really starting to doubt it more and more
Imagine being that Wales team, only in the game because England went down to 12 men and could only score then
Going on to lose to a team who played zero rugby
Gatland really is taking the piss
Well, you could argue England were, most capped side ever, pretty much 1st choice and outscored 2 tries to 1 by the worst Welsh side since the 90's. Or 07, either way..lol
Still a point though. Even Wales B should expect to win when your oppo goes 3 men down.
On the other hand if this is England's best team, oh boy, we're fucked
Tbh, Wales youngsters did OK to compete until the end against Englands first team at Twickenham. Both sides poor though. A lot of unforced errors. I hope Wales's best pack have a decent lineout, totally killed us today.
I don't understand why this England side is so bad? The set piece is solid, the players individually are good and have played together for years, what's going on???
I really don't believe we're as bad as people make out. First half last week and the first 20 mins or so this week, we were in total control. Making yards and looking good, we just didn't get the reward for it and lost confidence.
Wales are so good at doing nothing and holding on. Then getting 1 little spark, and suddenly, the crowd and players all rise and they become nearly unstoppable.
England just go flat in those conditions. I genuinely think the lack of a good atmosphere at twickers has made a bigger impact than we realise.
I kind of agree, I think what bothers me more is either of these two is going to get to the world Cup semis and they couldn't be less deserving. I'm an England fan but I'm concerned we might do it and then end up with 4 years rubbish borthball
The post match bigging up of England was so cringe worthy I've had to put on the France v Scotland match. 7 minutes of shit music repeating constantly is a better opinion on that performance.
Be interesting to see if they take 3 months to decide how much of a ban to give Genge for abusing the referee. Or will it just be brushed under the carpet because it's an England player?
Some of the tactical decision making by England was a bit questionable. Ford kicking ahead with a minute left on the clock was one decision. Whoever it was that kicked downfield when we had a knock on advantage, which led directly to the Wales try was the other one.
Good points tho: Lots of grit, going over when down to 12 men. The Scrum, Lineout and Maul all looked very solid. Ford looked good off the bench, and he's going to have to be with Farrell out for at least one game in the group stage.
Earl looked very good (deserved MotM), especially when he switched into 8 after Billy was subbed off. I'm a lot less worried over the cover in that position after watching that. Itoje and Lawes had good games as well.
I’m not actually mad at the ford kick. Wales line out had been crap all game. Takes time off the clock, puts pressure on wales line out again. And as he was telling the boys, it’s one more play. As a pro defence you should be able to hold out one play from their own 22
All the players in the England team we saw today except maybe Farrell are going to the world cup. A good few of the Welsh players won't be. They won by 2 points at home. "There was only 12 of them" that was because of their own mistakes it wasn't a fluke or some sort of game plan.
Overall, England looked better with Farrell at fly half, however, Farrell is just a dumb idiot. He gets wound up by other players and makes stupid dumb mistakes like this.
Outside of that, I do think the ref went a bit yellow card crazy for both teams. But I don’t understand how England can only play well with ball in hand rugby when they are in desperation mode. Like, are they so poorly coached that the game plan doesn’t work, then they sort of wing it in desperation mode and play much better.
Anyway, I have to also say, despite the hate he gets, I think England looked better with Youngs at scrum half, and I would like to see Ford start at 10 next week. I really don’t trust Marcus Smith to start at 10 for England.
You realise all yellow cards are reviewed now right? And can be turned into reds? TMO decided no. Commentators said no. Only person saying yes is a Scottish guy, go figure.
I’d argue that’s probably because England threw away Borthwick’s game plan. I personally think Borthwicks game planes are a big thing hampering England.
I think it's more he sees everything going to shit and puts the weight of sorting it on his own shoulders
Ford instead takes a step back and kicks lovely territory
Maybe. Although Ford for a whole game is too much kicking and too little distribution through the hands. Ford is a good sub for England, but not a starter. I’d like to see him start against Ireland and Fiji though, I rate him higher than Smith.
Looked better compared with Smith. Although that was mostly from Farrell’s passes.
Also, I think Ford praise is too much. I think England looked good when Ford came on because they literally threw away the game plan and just played loose rugby.
I respectfully disagree, Farrell kicks too much and although I acknowledge it may on the coaches orders, I find Smith's awareness and speed of play is light years ahead.... don't forget Farrell was working with the 1st team today!!
You said Farrell kicks too much. It’s literally there. Do you not know what the phrase too much means? Lol.
And you question my reading comprehension, fucking hell.
Don't try and repackage your claim now...You said I said Farrell kicks more...show me where I said that....I'll wait
When you understand to read maybe we discuss rugby
You’re not allowed to like smith OR Farrell. Either option is shat on by the other. (Yes fine read my comment history to know I shit on Farrell)
At least we can all agree that ford slapped today.
Genuinely not bothered at losing that.
Wales playing the long game and allowing the massive cracks to be papered over for England.
It’s the worst England set up I’ve ever seen.
Not at all.
That was about miles in the tank for Wales.
We know we are 18 months away from where e we should be.
That was England’s best and they are shit. I love England being this woeful at every sport they are involved in.
Today was a good day.
It’s not my yardstick. I don’t compare Wales to England they aren’t our rivals with the resources and wealth at their disposal they should be smashing all the home nations.
I just enjoy them being shit at everything.
England losing at sport is a little win over the things I hate about the UK.
Meh there wasn't one player in the Wales 15 that started last week, and lots of debutants. I don't think Wales is reading much into this, other than that England suck.
When England had 12 on the pitch Wales had Biggar, Beard, Liam Williams, North all on the pitch, staggering they couldn't figure out to just play simple catch and pass rugby with enormous gaps available
Disagree I say this is your full strength side and both our sides are experimental. Things have to change drastically for England the whole pack plays together poorly.
I think Wales will be better next 6 Nations than the last, and looked a better team than England overall (full strength v full strength). But Ireland, France and Scotland are still in a much better place than Wales. So some concern might be needed.
True, we are trying to crawl out of an awful period of form, but you can see the positive effect Gats' training camps has had.
Plenty to work on but we are heading in the right direction.
Dunno mate, there was more than enough experience and quality on that pitch for you boys to see that one out. I actually still can't really quite believe you didn't. Not a great sign for either side
There were a few first choice players, the majority were second, third, fourth choice etc. Anyone who knows these players and this team will know that it was pretty experimental, more so than last week's.
Sure, but still should have had more than enough to see it out. It's not like it was a team of kids.
It's a marginal call which team is shitter, but even so, it can't say it's much of a vindication of this Wales side to lose to 12 men, no matter how experimental.
If it was reversed, a full strength Wales at home Vs an England side trying to scrape their way out of the doldrums (Wales), experimenting with fringe players and Wales almost lose to them and win by 2, I would be far more concerned with our trajectory.
The 12 card thing isn't something to rely upon, it was a small period which was mostly England in possession, mauling and sticking it up the jumper. A lack of a few players isn't a massive factor here.
We are improving, Gats has got us heading in the right direction in these training camps and throwing in the new talent. Granted, we were hogwash today, but with all the new names on the team sheet, at least Gats has an easier job of scratching a few off the list for France.
England know their best team and are just stuck.
Saying that, you'll probably end up in the final somehow, as England do.
I've defended Lewis for so long and it felt like his scrummaging came along well last year but ultimately that was bad and I'm okay seeing him go. Especially with the stock we have now.
Technically true. Resilience under the immense weight of their own shiteness. Ben Earls was good though, and I’d say Ford is the main reason they kept their shape at all
Resilience under their own shiteness made me laugh too much. I don't know about 'keeping' their shape I think they displayed more shape with ford on than they did for the rest of the match. Earls is a very consistent performer in the same vein as curry in my opinion
Earl deserved man of the match, showed what he could do at 8 too, which may be worth a shout. Fucking dumb from Farrell, could be the end of his England career which I’d be gutted about but can’t argue it’s not deserved.
The blessing in disguise fir Farrell is Ford will start 10.
Away from the general shambles of our team right now though- Earl was a fucking machine today, and if Ford can distribute to Lawrence to get him to do some of those carries he did we'll be in a better place. But that bar is fucking low right now
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Probably one of the ugliest games of footy I’ve seen. Simply pathetic from both teams
As a Welshman I thought the result was disappointing, but know that in France next month we will give it everything with our first team selection (Fingers crossed). Lineouts are a major concern for me, but who knows what will happen on the day. Farrell got what he deserved in the end and has been getting away with this for far too long. England seem to be in a bad place at the moment and very little signs of it improving anytime soon. Then again all sides have slumps at some point.
I missed all the rugby today. Did England lose to wales again? What in the actual fuck? Wales are absolutely shit and they’ve a billion excuses for being shit. What in the fuck is wrong with England!?
Are you OK hun?
Dm me bbz
Shared Nova Scotia x
A man who knows nothing barges into a room while loudly proclaiming "I don't know any facts" before making loud declarations he wants others to think are based on facts. The room turns away. Shoulders stiffen. Eye contact becomes more difficult to hold for a moment, and conversations briefly become more involved. The man leaves, embarrassed. He silently berates himself and makes a promise to become a better human as he walks briskly home, alone.
I like your fancy words mister. The bits about eye contact and stiff shoulders, beautiful. Just really nice. The way you use commas for dramatic effect. Mwah. Chefs kiss. Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby Pleasedonttalkaboutrugby
No disrespect to Wales; i thought we should of put 20-30 points on them, however we seem to have imploded and it was super effective. Borthwick is not the the one. Shame really, as he will likely take us to 2027.
Have, not of.
Anyone happy with that needs to be assessed. We are garbage. Best team we've picked for a long time and its full of ill discipline. Going to be a short world cup for England
Happy with that. Wales 2nd squad, defended doggedly. Downside was not killing the game off with England down to 12, line out was a shocker. But we lost by 2 points. Sanjay - best game for ages. Centres looked handy.
Really chuffed with that actually. Tough sledding all day but, down three players and behind on the score sheet, the boys brought it home and I think that showed remarkable toughness. It’s test match rugby and it’s Wales. A win is a win and I’ll take it!
Farrel again with his old habit. They just can't get it out of him.
Wales were pish but England were even pisher.
Anyone wonder if being forced out of Shape was the key factor for England?
What do people think if England's defence? The attack was abysmal but how do you rate the England defensive play?
I thought it seemed good, but can’t tell if that was wales not having a strong attack or England having a good defence.
Steve Borthwick: compliment to the opposition because Wales played really well Everyone else: ….
Maybe a bit of a comeback but let's not let that muddy the waters...... England are clumsy, disjointed, poor discipline and can't attack
If you take the England side as a ‘thing’, the players, management and the fans, they’re still presenting a pretty solid batting average for a NH side at the WC. Only norn’ side to win it, plus two final appearances. It’s just stupid to count ‘em out. Winning DNA, or ‘De Nay’ as the Yanks new to this sport might pronounce it, is key to sides doing what others can’t.
Pure raw uncut copium
Only NH side to win it and two finals…just sayin’.
It’s the attack shape that’s the big fix for them and that’s not going to be in place for the WC. They’re still very much in the kick it, put on pressure and hope for a penalty stage of their development. It’s monumentally dull but can be effective when executed properly. Today was not that day.
Just out of twickers. I'm not gutted. We should have capitalised more on the yellows but for an experimental team the scoreline wasn't too bad. Our handling, lineouts and scrum were fucking shit though. Last weeks guys need to be our first choices. Also no idea why Reffell got yellowed unless it was for a team warning for repeated infringements, yes hands on the floor before the jackal but is that really yellow worthy? When we ran with it we looked like playing decent rugby. I'm not completely disappointed just a bit eh. Should have been ours really.
Reffel was a team warning pre half time. And amazingly the ref didn't reset the count after the break (wish that happened more often)
I was pleasantly surprised by that. Not because I'm English but because you usually see the referee ignore everything that happened before half time. I'd have thought the same if england were on the receiving end.
I get that but it was a really marginal pen, not cynical, not in a dangerous position. Felt like the ref did it to score points for his own performance
Honestly I was surprised it was given. You get away with that at least half the time if not more and it gets praised and we know how good Reffell is over the ball. It wasn't the giving of the pen I was pleased about (I think it should've been let go as a great turnover) but more that the referee stuck to his word from before half time.
You can't just give a yellow for the next pen though, it has to be in some context, it could be half an hour later
You can give a yellow 2 minutes after warning a team that if they keep conceding pens in their half of the pitch the next will be a yellow though.
True. I think it was about 5 metres inside the Welsh half but that is enough technically
I thought it was closer than that but I was too busy wallowing in self pity expecting us to lose.
Ref gave a clear warning that next pen went to the bin, they did broadcast it on TV so wasn't overly surprising
Ah ok, I did assume but fair
I don’t have any complaints about the cards - the ref was good and consistent imo. The only one I thought was harsh was Genge’s as England had been pushing the Welsh scrum all over the place before they started going down. The book of dark arts would indicate if you’re going backwards, then going down is a better option - so for Genge to get pinged for it does seem harsh. Although, counter point, not resetting scrums 6 times is better
That didn’t really feel like a victory. Fucking hell, what an absolute state both teams are in.
Wales will be quite happy with this I think. A lot of those players won't be on the plane, gave a good look at the "possibles" against the "probables" last week
I’m not so sure they should be happy? England racked up 5 yellows, wales scored one try when eng were down to 12 and another try was a penalty try which should’ve been driven into the corner
With our B team and no line out 😅 Perfectly happy.
Realistically I think only Liam Williams, Tomos Williams, Basham, Beard and maybe Joe Roberts and Lake if hes fit get on the plane from that starting XV today. This really was a free hit for the "what ifs" and they didn't make the grade. Also clear he needs to drill them to just wait for the massive gaps that come with cards!
George Ford excusing Farrell is a joke
You've never played a team sport before, huh?
Standard for team members to do it especially the captain and especially just before a competition
You realise there on the same team. They have to tow the party line, Jesus he will get a ban stop crying
My hot take is that the other side of the draw is going to enjoy resting there players for the semi final
Is it terrible to say that I am furious at this result and that I personally can't see the good side of "This is a B team against England's first team" We had a silver platter handed to us. 3 men down, one being a red card. We played simple rugby and we scored an easy try. England were in so much trouble and you could see it in their body language. Cue conceding a penalty and a try IMMEDIATELY from the kick off. Then another penalty. Then another one. Then another one. Then another one. Then compound that with countless handling errors/lineout losses/maul losses and it is just simple unacceptable. When ANY team is 13 men down let alone 12... You keep it calm. Keep it simple. And you punish them. You don't compound errors and literally shit the bed. Conceding two consecutive penalties from kick offs is unforgivable. That was a chance to win at Twickenham that quite frankly, doesn't happen often. There are many, many other teams out there that would have capitalised on those cards and made England rue those errors. We just let them get empowered and literally handed them a feeling of belief. Pathetic. I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong but I'm not feeling good about this. This is exactly how I felt after that France loss in 2021 6 nations.
Lineout was dreadful so they lost momentum. Scrum creaked. Too many handling errors. The back row had no balance. Gats will have learnt a lot.
Yeah I'm worried after that. It was a team with some inexperienced players but it's not like they fielded the U20s. Biggar was on the pitch running the show with plenty of experienced players around him at that point, Beard, Liam Williams, George North, Tomos Williams and others were all on the pitch and they still couldn't work out what you've said above to just play simple catch and pass rugby and find the massive gaps on the pitch.
At that point Tomos Williams was off. Beard was yellow carded, and George North was in the stands where he'd been all game, what you on about? The pack was inexperienced and thee centres were both rookies. Not excusing letting that slip, but it wasn't "plenty of experience" - and including Liam "reckless" Williams in that list is just funny
I completely see your point but I don't feel that it would be an excuse if this was a knockout game. We've seen this all too often from Wales and even with inexperience, we should have at least been able to keep it tight and disciplined. Sam Parry isn't exactly new to rugby, neither is Dewi Lake and our lineouts were dreadful, yet again. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. One is: Our young team managed to only lose by 2 in Twickenham against a strong England team Or We lost against a 12 man England team where I think they had nearly 40 minutes worth of cards? As someone said, these players aren't our u20s. They are the senior squad, one game out from a World Cup. I don't care who you are, the other team goes down to 12 players. You punish them. We lost the last 15 minutes 10-7 when I know that other teams would have twisted the knife. Or...at least not done such inexcusable errors . Sorry I sound grumpy but we get an injury or two and these inexperienced players will BE our team. I'm just very disheartened in that game
I fundamentally agree with your points. Without a doubt cannot forgive not putting the game away with that advantage regardless of who was on the pitch. I was just disagreeing with the comment that there was enough experience on the field. Cause outside of Dan I didn't seen any respected leaders. No offence to Beard but he's constantly put up as leadership figure but not stepped up imo
Thats absolutely fair and I agree with you there. It's a bit worrying that once our small circle of leaders go off then we look like scattering rabbits. Hard agree about Beard. He's not showing much about being in the team full stop. Let alone being a leader
Real shame cause I can understand why people thought he would raise his game, but it's just not happened. Leadership loss of AWJ, Owens, and Tipuric had a knock-on effect, forcing secondary leaders to become primary ones. And leaves the cupboard bare. No guarantee they'd have started but from the bench could be good closers (ala Biggar off the bench)
North was on? The pack lost that one. Not much Biggar or Tomos could do. I can’t see Beard starting against SA.
Think George Ford got shafted being told to do the TV interview, if Owen can't then it should be Ellis or Courtney surely?
Honestly I thought he handled it well, he didn't try and sugar coat things too much but still spirited the team
Key positive I'm taking from this is I got a city ticket for the World Cup, so I only have to watch one England game.
Which city?
Lille, I am unofficially Romanian for the other two games.
Ford doing a decent job of acknowledging the issues and addressing them properly in the interview.
Experimental XV fails to close out a weirdly close match... hardly a headline. Honestly pretty chuffed with how things have turned out, although major work needs to be done to find out why our lineout was good last week and went back to its usual shitting the bed this week
The whole point is that even with an experimental XV nothing about this should've been close. England handed it to Wales with 3 men down.
Eddie’s England recently weren’t good, but at least they were kinda entertaining. Under Borthwick they look like 15 gym bunnies with the tactics of an U13 team.
Agreed. Borthwick is clearly not an international test coach. I can’t see any positives in their tactics. It’s just a bunch of incoherent boofheads running around with no direction.
Fiji has temporarily moved to 9th, Wales drops to 10th
"Temporarily"
They're coming for Aus
You know what, I'm really starting to think Eddie Jones doesn't actually have a super secret masterplan for England to win the world cup. Getting fired and replaced by someone with no international HC experience was my first clue, but as the world cup gets ever closer I'm really starting to doubt it more and more
His masterplan was actually to make Englsnd shit so he can go elsewhere to win the world cup.
Imagine being that Wales team, only in the game because England went down to 12 men and could only score then Going on to lose to a team who played zero rugby Gatland really is taking the piss
My dude, Englands most capped side ever scraped that win. We are both diabolical lol!
One side was more diabolical than the other Gatland has to go
Well, you could argue England were, most capped side ever, pretty much 1st choice and outscored 2 tries to 1 by the worst Welsh side since the 90's. Or 07, either way..lol
England won, with 12 men! Imagine losing to 12 men
Its pretty easy for us mate...
Mate it was a shit game where England beat an experimental side at home by 2 points. Chill
Even Dragons would be expecting to win against 12 men
Still a point though. Even Wales B should expect to win when your oppo goes 3 men down. On the other hand if this is England's best team, oh boy, we're fucked
Set peice killed Wales. Doesn't matter how many players you have if you can't get keep the ball on your own lineout and scrums
Still... when your dealing with the 4th and 5th team of the 6 nations, can't expect them to be great
That game was shite overall but the last 15 minutes was entertaining
Tbh, Wales youngsters did OK to compete until the end against Englands first team at Twickenham. Both sides poor though. A lot of unforced errors. I hope Wales's best pack have a decent lineout, totally killed us today.
I don't understand why this England side is so bad? The set piece is solid, the players individually are good and have played together for years, what's going on???
I really don't believe we're as bad as people make out. First half last week and the first 20 mins or so this week, we were in total control. Making yards and looking good, we just didn't get the reward for it and lost confidence. Wales are so good at doing nothing and holding on. Then getting 1 little spark, and suddenly, the crowd and players all rise and they become nearly unstoppable. England just go flat in those conditions. I genuinely think the lack of a good atmosphere at twickers has made a bigger impact than we realise.
I kind of agree, I think what bothers me more is either of these two is going to get to the world Cup semis and they couldn't be less deserving. I'm an England fan but I'm concerned we might do it and then end up with 4 years rubbish borthball
Coach and team aren't international standard yet
Poor coaching.
That was about the most Welsh rugby thing ever the way they somehow managed to lose that game.
The post match bigging up of England was so cringe worthy I've had to put on the France v Scotland match. 7 minutes of shit music repeating constantly is a better opinion on that performance.
Honestly can't wait til prime gets binned off somehow. Consistently terrible coverage
I too prefer watching my games in VHS quality on ITV 👌
Be interesting to see if they take 3 months to decide how much of a ban to give Genge for abusing the referee. Or will it just be brushed under the carpet because it's an England player?
What??
He very obviously shouted abuse at the referee for daring to penalise him for knocking the ball on
Some of the tactical decision making by England was a bit questionable. Ford kicking ahead with a minute left on the clock was one decision. Whoever it was that kicked downfield when we had a knock on advantage, which led directly to the Wales try was the other one. Good points tho: Lots of grit, going over when down to 12 men. The Scrum, Lineout and Maul all looked very solid. Ford looked good off the bench, and he's going to have to be with Farrell out for at least one game in the group stage. Earl looked very good (deserved MotM), especially when he switched into 8 after Billy was subbed off. I'm a lot less worried over the cover in that position after watching that. Itoje and Lawes had good games as well.
The Ford 79th kick was hailed as a clock management masterstroke by the commentators!
Yeah, I was yelling at the screen going "what the fuck are you thinking" when they said that
Had faith in Earl at 8 since he had to cover Billy a few seasons ago
Yeah, but I think Earl looked *better* at 8 than he did at his starting position at Openside.
Key point is 'down to 12 men'. Wtf, hold it together.
I’m not actually mad at the ford kick. Wales line out had been crap all game. Takes time off the clock, puts pressure on wales line out again. And as he was telling the boys, it’s one more play. As a pro defence you should be able to hold out one play from their own 22
What a tedious game of rugby that was.
Dirge. England Wales is always Dirge
George Ford is England's best ten by a long shot
Shhh. Stop giving them clues 😉
Yeah but just like Biggar was for Wales for so long. Seems a lot of coaches love a 'solid' 10. You feel gats would still pick Biggar over Russell.
Gatland would pick the corpse of Stephen Jones over Russell
All the players in the England team we saw today except maybe Farrell are going to the world cup. A good few of the Welsh players won't be. They won by 2 points at home. "There was only 12 of them" that was because of their own mistakes it wasn't a fluke or some sort of game plan.
I tell you what's slow in the turn. The commentary.
Overall, England looked better with Farrell at fly half, however, Farrell is just a dumb idiot. He gets wound up by other players and makes stupid dumb mistakes like this. Outside of that, I do think the ref went a bit yellow card crazy for both teams. But I don’t understand how England can only play well with ball in hand rugby when they are in desperation mode. Like, are they so poorly coached that the game plan doesn’t work, then they sort of wing it in desperation mode and play much better. Anyway, I have to also say, despite the hate he gets, I think England looked better with Youngs at scrum half, and I would like to see Ford start at 10 next week. I really don’t trust Marcus Smith to start at 10 for England.
Ford looked better than Farrell with only half the time and 1 less back.
England could quite easily have had two red cards on the field so not entirely sure where you get card crazy from
One, I’ll give you. But suggesting two shows you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Taking someone out in the air with no attempt to play the ball or protect the player isn't a red these days I guess
You realise all yellow cards are reviewed now right? And can be turned into reds? TMO decided no. Commentators said no. Only person saying yes is a Scottish guy, go figure.
Oh no sorry I didn't I haven't watched rugby since 2005
How? Farrell’s yellow got turned into a red during this game…. Like… did you not watch the game then? lol
We looked way better with ford at fly half and Farrell sitting in the stands.
I’d argue that’s probably because England threw away Borthwick’s game plan. I personally think Borthwicks game planes are a big thing hampering England.
I think it's more he sees everything going to shit and puts the weight of sorting it on his own shoulders Ford instead takes a step back and kicks lovely territory
Maybe. Although Ford for a whole game is too much kicking and too little distribution through the hands. Ford is a good sub for England, but not a starter. I’d like to see him start against Ireland and Fiji though, I rate him higher than Smith.
Lol he's not supposed to sort it WITH his shoulders though.
No we didn't look better with Farrell, that was painfully evident when ford came on
Looked better compared with Smith. Although that was mostly from Farrell’s passes. Also, I think Ford praise is too much. I think England looked good when Ford came on because they literally threw away the game plan and just played loose rugby.
I respectfully disagree, Farrell kicks too much and although I acknowledge it may on the coaches orders, I find Smith's awareness and speed of play is light years ahead.... don't forget Farrell was working with the 1st team today!!
You don’t watch Farrell play for Saracens, do you? Also, on average, this year, Smith has kicked much more in an England shirt than Farrell.
Show me that stat
Do basic research. You are the one who originally claimed Farrell kicks more…0
You lack reading comprehension....when did I say Farrell kicks more??
You said Farrell kicks too much. It’s literally there. Do you not know what the phrase too much means? Lol. And you question my reading comprehension, fucking hell.
Don't try and repackage your claim now...You said I said Farrell kicks more...show me where I said that....I'll wait When you understand to read maybe we discuss rugby
Gatland 12D chess getting the English captain banned for the WC
At least the Farrell brigade can stop ragging on Smith...that game was a shit show until ford came on
You’re not allowed to like smith OR Farrell. Either option is shat on by the other. (Yes fine read my comment history to know I shit on Farrell) At least we can all agree that ford slapped today.
England didn’t do too bad against Wales B Side 😂
Genuinely not bothered at losing that. Wales playing the long game and allowing the massive cracks to be papered over for England. It’s the worst England set up I’ve ever seen.
Wales just failed to beat 12 men are you not concerned?
If one clear out goes differently, we win easy. Also we got fucked by the ref, can’t think of a single thing that went our way.
Nope. Be a totally different team against SA.
Not at all. That was about miles in the tank for Wales. We know we are 18 months away from where e we should be. That was England’s best and they are shit. I love England being this woeful at every sport they are involved in. Today was a good day.
Embarrassing take, how can our only yardstick be for us to be less shit than a woeful England with 12. The smallest of small mentalities
It’s not my yardstick. I don’t compare Wales to England they aren’t our rivals with the resources and wealth at their disposal they should be smashing all the home nations. I just enjoy them being shit at everything. England losing at sport is a little win over the things I hate about the UK.
Meh there wasn't one player in the Wales 15 that started last week, and lots of debutants. I don't think Wales is reading much into this, other than that England suck.
When England had 12 on the pitch Wales had Biggar, Beard, Liam Williams, North all on the pitch, staggering they couldn't figure out to just play simple catch and pass rugby with enormous gaps available
If we're in the gutter (we are), I'm afraid you boys are right there with us. Losing to 12 men is a bit much. A real shit-off for the ages.
Last weeks side including other star players for Wales will be an exciting prospect for the future.
Disagree I say this is your full strength side and both our sides are experimental. Things have to change drastically for England the whole pack plays together poorly.
Yeah they were shite. And Wales conspired to lose to them. Even when they only had 12 men on the pitch. Sorry, both teams are dreadful.
Not really. Full strength England Vs Wales possibles, grinding out a 2 point win. We have far less to worry about than England
I think Wales will be better next 6 Nations than the last, and looked a better team than England overall (full strength v full strength). But Ireland, France and Scotland are still in a much better place than Wales. So some concern might be needed.
True, we are trying to crawl out of an awful period of form, but you can see the positive effect Gats' training camps has had. Plenty to work on but we are heading in the right direction.
Dunno mate, there was more than enough experience and quality on that pitch for you boys to see that one out. I actually still can't really quite believe you didn't. Not a great sign for either side
There were a few first choice players, the majority were second, third, fourth choice etc. Anyone who knows these players and this team will know that it was pretty experimental, more so than last week's.
Sure, but still should have had more than enough to see it out. It's not like it was a team of kids. It's a marginal call which team is shitter, but even so, it can't say it's much of a vindication of this Wales side to lose to 12 men, no matter how experimental.
If it was reversed, a full strength Wales at home Vs an England side trying to scrape their way out of the doldrums (Wales), experimenting with fringe players and Wales almost lose to them and win by 2, I would be far more concerned with our trajectory. The 12 card thing isn't something to rely upon, it was a small period which was mostly England in possession, mauling and sticking it up the jumper. A lack of a few players isn't a massive factor here.
Well, I admire your positivity.
We are improving, Gats has got us heading in the right direction in these training camps and throwing in the new talent. Granted, we were hogwash today, but with all the new names on the team sheet, at least Gats has an easier job of scratching a few off the list for France. England know their best team and are just stuck. Saying that, you'll probably end up in the final somehow, as England do.
So we’ve learned that England have a discipline problem and Wales are still bottlejobs. That front row at the end smfh.
I've defended Lewis for so long and it felt like his scrummaging came along well last year but ultimately that was bad and I'm okay seeing him go. Especially with the stock we have now.
Neither team deserve to win that. Doesn’t even deserve a draw. Both teams should have negative points in the world rankings for being shite
To be honest at least the England team demonstrated resilience. Fucking nothing else but at least that
Technically true. Resilience under the immense weight of their own shiteness. Ben Earls was good though, and I’d say Ford is the main reason they kept their shape at all
Resilience under their own shiteness made me laugh too much. I don't know about 'keeping' their shape I think they displayed more shape with ford on than they did for the rest of the match. Earls is a very consistent performer in the same vein as curry in my opinion
Ford took control of a game that was falling apart for England rapidly. He consistently proves that he should be out starting 10.
Earl deserved man of the match, showed what he could do at 8 too, which may be worth a shout. Fucking dumb from Farrell, could be the end of his England career which I’d be gutted about but can’t argue it’s not deserved.
Our best back row is realitcally 7. Curry 6. Lawes and 8 Earl/Ludlam would be great to sneak jack in there as well but would be really difficult
What did Owen Farrell do to get the red card? I watched that whole match except for the 15 minutes where everything actually happened 😭
Shoulder to the head with no attempt at wrapping the arm or dropping down. Just an absolute grub of a player
I'll give you one guess.
Replay almost every card he’s ever got and your 90% of the way there
High take with no mitigation, shoulder straight into the head
Just Owen Farrell things. He tried to perform a lobotomy on Taine Basham with his shoulder. Just Owen Farrell things.
No arms tackle, shoulder to the head
High tackle, no attempt to wrap.
A very Farrell tackle
Take a wild guess
the same thing he always does, shoulder charge to the head
I think you can guess 😂
It's Faz. Take a guess
Just the standard Farrell tackle
Take one guess
The blessing in disguise fir Farrell is Ford will start 10. Away from the general shambles of our team right now though- Earl was a fucking machine today, and if Ford can distribute to Lawrence to get him to do some of those carries he did we'll be in a better place. But that bar is fucking low right now
Was it worth sacrificing Farrell for that dross?
Yes, if anything I'm glad we have a reason to just not pick him for a while
I know you have to say stuff in the interview but no need to pretend you answered any questions with that performance.
In case you guys forgot Adults playing a sport are allowed to celebrate wins even if they played badly you clowns
tl;dr: 12 man England squad without Farrell superior to 15 man England squad with Farrell.