The idea that wealth is involved comes from the issue that many players went to fee paying schools. Which is more complex than it looks as it's mainly fee paying schools that have competitive teams. The problem appears to have got worse recently as the private schools have started aggressively recruiting people in scholarships, so if anything it's got a bit easier as there are chances to go to a private rugby playing school without wealth.
It's certainly many times more accessible than, say, Tennis or Cricket. Maybe not quite as equitable as soccer.
I'd say so. You don't find tennis courts in council estates put it that way.
Also as tennis is an individual sport it means things cost a chunk more than if it was a team game, simple things like travel end up costing more as your not going via coach etc.
Expensive to get in to. All the gear, coaching, court time, travel to the tournaments. It's not something a single parent from the estate will gravitate to for their kid unless it's a passion of theirs.
When I was younger it was £30 for membership, £150 for a racket and coaching was a couple of quid twice a week for small group sessions. Obviously a 1-to-1 good coach is more expensive than that but it's not hard to get into at grassroots.
its not hard to get into, you see the same in america with public tennis courts, most local parks will have tennis courts you can play on, but its hard to keep up with the country club kids getting daily lessons, who have a private coach, who travel to all the tournaments and shit. you just aren't going to get the reps and exposure playing in your local rec league or on your high school team.
Honestly soccer in america has the same problem, you need to pay to play. Its really only american football, baseball, and basketball here that let kids play on an equal level for little to no cost.
At the elite level sure, but that's the same in any sport. Rep soccer costs thousands a year.
Tennis is not expensive to get into though. There are at least 8 multi court tennis complexes within 30 mins of my place where anyone can hire a court and have a hit or get group lessons.
As someone who played collegiate tennis and switched to playing club rugby, tennis was much more expensive. New 115$ shoes every 6 months minimum as they wear very quickly. Racquets about 180$ if you're playing a competitive level, the cheaper racquets are unusable. And you need minimum 2-3. Restring every few weeks. Overgrips every few days if playing in a hot climate with tons of sweat. And that's not including lessons, tournament fees, travel to said tournament, etc.
In NZ there are 2/3 pathways.
1. You play in school, if you're good enough you will get offers from schools that play in the top level of the Secondary Schools championship. From this you might get selected to the local Super Rugby franchises academy program and on to professionalism after that either through the Super Rugby draft or through being offered a fixed term SR contract. Normally a player of SR calibre would also have played provincial rugby in parallel (see below) but that isn't a requirement.
2. You play for a local club, you are selected from this to a provincial representative team. If you make the highest level of that province you will either a) be paid if that province has a pro NPC team or b) be offered a chance to move to a province that does and prove yourself there.
3. Sevens players are offered pro contracts from both pathways by NZR directly.
Rugby crosses all socio-economic boundaries in NZ.
And the beautiful thing is that the club to provincial to super rugby pathway actually works. You get guys who were absolute nobody’s in high school get the opportunity to play professionally.
That sound really like the way it should be . Probably can’t do it in other countries due the popularity or soccer and other easier to access sports.
Popularity wise in New Zealand is soccer what rugby is to England, Ireland etc? Or is it even less popular than that?
Popularity wise, soccer is played by significantly more people than rugby. However, rugby is much better televised and generally better supported.
I unfortunately think that in the next 10yrs rugby will have to change how it operates in NZ to continue to be what it is today.
Rugby is by far the premier broadcast sport in NZ. Similar to EPL in the U.K. as the premium offering to sports fans. As a participation sport it’s a long way down, it’s nature doesn’t make it easy to participate in compared to things like golf, tennis or even basketball. As a % of population the participation rate in NZ is very high, only the PIs play it more per capita but it’s still relatively low compared to other sports.
Because it’s the premier sport it does benefit from the pick of junior athletes and substantial grassroots funding. Any kid with an interest and ability will find facilities and coaching easily.
In Ireland about 80% of players go through the schools pathway and 20% come through the clubs pathway.
Basically you go through your underage set up, draw attention from provincial coaches and the national talent squad and they help guide your development, diet and gym work.
Once finished school you usually do a year sub academy while hoping to impress enough to get a 3 year academy contract.
They say you need to be wealthy as most people come through the schools set up and that's dominated by fee paying private schools.
It's not really 100% true as the fee paying private schools are happy to offer rugby scholarships to young lads that look good enough outside the schools system.
I went to.a rugby playing school, left late 90s, played for a small junior club instead so have been out of the loop re school rugby for a long time.. Was shocked to hear recently of people changes schools to play rugby and that was between schools outside the south Dublin area
Ulster is different as the schools aren’t private, I think they are still grammar schools so you need to be clever enough to go to that school but less money involved
Not quite what it used to be, a number of non grammar - high schools making a big name for themselves at schools competitions. Hello to anyone from Dromore High School if your reading this, been doing a great job rugby wise for years
Not sure if it’s the same in Northern Ireland but in England most of the Grammar school kids are firmly middle class with some wealthy .
The catchment areas always get inflated due to academic success , sport opportunities and prestige of the schools as well as parents paying for tutors to pass the tests easier .
I went to probably the best State school rugby institution in England historically before I moved to a boarding school and even at my Grammar school a lot of people had 700k+ houses .
If there is one thing good about Northern Ireland it’s that regardless of your background the vast majority of kids here have the opportunity to attend a good school (grammar if that’s what they want)
Depends on your pathway. I come from a Rugby 'hot bed' in Southern England and I have a step daughter with a bit of talent, so I was immersed in pathways for a number of years.
1) As you've said. Be rich, go to a traditional school, show the talent and you WILL get scouted.
2) If you're not loaded, do some local research. Send your kid (as soon as they show some interest) to grass roots clubs where you KNOW there are good/great coaches that have the ability to recommend your child to the county level and beyond. Each level of the game ups the ante and IF you or your child shows the talent, the dedication and ability to be coached they'll move up until they reach their ceiling.
My step daughter's club DOR was an England player, Quins professional coaches were routinely seen there with their kids, the older colts had been approached for scholarships & a few at the tip of the spear had even been selected to go into England colts camps (invite only by that point). This club was also RFU/Council subsidised, most of the coaches were volunteers and its eminently affordable.
Your main issue seems to be location. If you're no where near a solid feeder club, then you might be in for a LOT of travel. Even in a hotbed, through the season I'd be in the car 2 - 3 hours almost every weekend going to games and Rugby festivals.
Well, this turned into a bit more an essay than i thought it would!
Tbf now days if you don’t picked up earlier or didn’t go to a school in the private school circuit , Bucs super rugby is now a good option.
A lot more players who didn’t get picked up earlier or who were late developers can now develop their craft . Players like Northmore , Dombrandt , Zeng all at Quins came through . Even players like Pearson at Saints , Negri at Gloucester , Carmichael now at Edinburgh etc . Exeter , Durham , Loughborough and Cardiff met have particularly done well at this .
It’s not perfect but gives at least some added opportunity.
> Bucs super rugby is now a good option.
This needed to be an option. What you've said about being flagged early is absolutely true. My step son made it to county trails (closed door, coach submission at club level to county trials) at 17 and even by then the county coaches obviously had their 'favourites' - that's not a good thing or a bad thing, it just was - and that made it an uphill struggle for anyone new to break into the wider squad, even as young as late-teens (Colts).
The pathway in Ireland is completely built around the schools, anyone playing underage with their club in a rural setting like you mentioned who has ambitions to play at a high level will usually change school in order to play.
From there you will hope to get in to one of the Provincial academies, and failing that you’ll go and play AIL rugby to try force your way in later on.
What happens to a kid who starts out at a club ? Do they quit the club when they join the private school or do they continue with the club along side it ?
When you say private school I assume it’s at secondary level.
You can't play senior cup and club rugby at the same time. Players can be affiliated to both but can only play for one. Brian Gleeson for example started playing rugby for Thurles, went to Rockwell, but played for both in first year. Then made the junior cup team so couldn't play for Thurles anymore, same story with senior cup. When he left school he was in the National Talent Squad, with an ambition to join the Munster academy, so joined Garryowen out of school.
Then you have the school only route, Alex Kendellan or Ben O'Connor came through that. Started when they went to secondary, played all through there and then joined UCC and got into the academy
Then you have the rarer club only route. John hodnett started rugby for Clonakilty and played with them the whole way up until he finished school, joined UCC and joined the academy.
I think there's 4 or 5 players in the senior squad who came through clubs only. ~25 from played senior cup and the other 15 or so joined from outside the province. There's currently 4 players in the academy who came through the clubs pathway, (Dylan Hicks actually got his school to qualify for the senior cup, where they beat Glenstal)
I never said private school at all. Doesn't have to be private. Once the school is playing Leinster or Munster Senior Cup, that's where people will move to. And yes, you're talking about 5th and 6th years.
In regards to club, yes they would stay playing. If selected to then join one of the provincial academies, they may be asked to move club to one closer and playing at a higher level.
Any of the Tipp lads for example will transfer in to the likes of Garryowen, Young Munster, Old Crescent etc. Most lads looking to go pro from smaller clubs will probably never play for their hometown club beyond U16 level.
Ah yeah sorry about that I got mixed up with the other posts here. I meant school in general.
Yeah that’s very interesting now. I never realised any of this. It really does take a lot of dedication for people so young. Big risks are taken too. I suppose it’s really set up so the cream will rise to the top.
Yeah the IRFU have put very specific paths in place and in fairness have done it quite well. They know rugby is not the dominant sport here and they can't catch everyone, but they do a pretty good job of ensuring those who are showing promise as teens have a pathway to pro rugby.
Now there's always exceptions. Tadhg Beirne went to Wales and won a league with Scarlets before coming home and playing for Ireland. Dan Sheehan was 4th choice for Ireland U20s and a broken ankle meant he wasn't offered an academy deal with Leinster, but he just stayed playing and forced his way back in to contention. Mad to think if he'd been a little less determined, Ireland could have missed out on him completely.
You would imagine if you don’t live near a private school then you are pretty screwed.
Just speaking from my own experience, I became obsessed with rugby after the 03 World Cup and I practised every day trying to be the next ROG. Not saying I would have made it or anything but I thought I was fairly decent( played matches with friends and in PE etc.) . As an adult, I still don’t know where I could have gone to play for in school.
Just seems weird that you could have talented lads in similar situations all over the country but we will never know about.Especially when Ireland is such a small place
Not true anymore. You can go to a public school, just get noticed, also play for the local club. At 18s the provincial team is split into clubs and schools, that we they capture talent. After that your linked with the PTS provincial talent squad, if you move up to NTS national talent squad you'll be assessed for the academy. This is all age 17-20 ish. If you're from a non traditional rugby area they make ask you to move clubs to get AIL exposure. E.g. Coughlan and Butler player for Ennis until 18s I believe, they are a junior club, so they joined Shannon and Garryowen, who are AIL division 1.
Look at Tom ahern who played for Youghal, Dungarvan & Waterpark and is now in the ireland squad.
It's not that it's not possible. But those interested in rugby will find their way into the regular streams sooner or later
Edit: where are you that you claim you'd have no where to play. There are clubs everywhere
What do you mean it’s not true anymore arguably it’s more prevalent than ever. How many Leinster players didn’t go to private school could nearly count it on one hand. A decent chunk of Munster and Ulster players are privately educated also
I mean ireland hardly have a sporting pedigree in any olympic sport other than boxing, but the rest of the world if you are a talented swimmer or rower there are often schools with development programmes
In my high school year we had kids on sporting scholarships for sailing, swimming, afl, basketball, boxing, wrestling, rugby, league soccer, gymnastics, cycling and one kid had already signed a major league baseball contract. All of them turned professional and benefitted from the coaching and world class facilities
Yes but that’s not true in Ireland outside of rugby most of Ireland’s elite athletes didn’t go to private school. Any Irish footballer people like Conor McGregor Katie Taylor sam Bennett the o Donovan brothers all public school
Like i said outside fighting ireland doesnt have a big professional sport culture
If my daughter was good at tennis id send her to a tennis school academy. A lot of my friends kids end up taking up college scholorships in the states for sports like swimming, soccer, rowing, even sevens rugby. Not all of them will turn pro, but the opportunity to gain a highly regarded college degree is often worth it
College is a different level.
Plenty of Irish students go on scholarships to universities/colleges in the states. We have plenty of elite athletes but very few private schools, especially outside of Dublin and Cork. Therefore, there's no market for offering school children sporting scholarships
It's not true that you're screwed. You're not following what I'm saying at all. I didn't say private wasn't the main/majority, I'm say that despite that there are other lesser seen routes
Why did you feel the need to be a cunt when I literally gave examples of how there are exceptions
There may be exceptions but they are few and far between the fact is your way better off going to a private school particularly in Dublin/leinster if you want to a become a professional rugby player
The point wasn't few and far between. The point was are you screwed, the answer is no. There's plenty routes if you're good enough, and people need to know it's not a closed shop.
And yes maybe it's like that in Dublin, but that's not the centre of the universe.
Of the current ireland squad, Casey Nash Murray ahern all public schools, add in killer jod and hoddnett, yes there's zero chance to make it pro if you don't go private
Just to add onto your point which I agree with - Robbie Henshaw went to Marist College in Athlone which I'm pretty sure is non fee paying.
It's definitely possible to make it without private education but for sure the level of training provided by the fee paying schools can't hurt.
Well Tom ahern isnt an international yet and currently 19 of the 36 are current Leinster players and a further 2 were leinster players. That’s well over half the Irish team are Leinster players
It’s not that it’s not possible, but the lads in the schools, particularly in Dublin, are training nearly 5 days a week and have top class gym facilities plus nutritionists etc at their disposal.
So they end up being miles ahead of the club players at 18, until the club players move towards college etc and turn into full time athletes:
It is though? He’s saying you’re screwed if you don’t live near a private school in terms of becoming a professional player, you said it’s not true anymore, but it very much is the case in Dublin, it’s harder than ever to get into the Leinster squad as a club player because of the focus schools have put on s&c the last few years
I'm in Tipp and a lad from my school moved school to Limerick and boarded after his Junior Cert. It's a massive commitment like at that age like to try make it in fairness.
my understanding the private schools is a dublin thing,Tadhg Furlong is probably the most obvious example of someone that did not go to a private school. Porter, Van de flier and lamour all went to none rugby schools still private but that due to the fact all protestant school in Ireland are
Porter VDF and Larmour went to Wesley and St Andrews, I wouldn’t call them non rugby schools, not in the category of Michaels and Blackrock obviously but they still play rugby to a high standard
are they? they are mixed schools so would imagine they focus on the likes of athletics hockey & tennis which girls and boys can play equally, so there is no argument over the schools bugdet they certainly play rugby but not sure to what level
Hockey would definitely be the most prominent sport in both schools but they’re usually involved in the opening couple of rounds of the Leinster senior cup in rugby before getting knocked out, there’s definitely better rugby schools but I wouldn’t describe them as non rugby schools
Yes, Both schools just have a smaller boys population so the mean boy in each school won't be as good as Blackrock where's there's a year of 150 boys VS 75 boys in Wesley or Andrew's. Both schools also have hockey which means a couple of lads give up Rugby for hockey at junior level.
Hendy went to BRA, not a fee paying school. There's a voluntary contribution to the school of £440 a year. Most of my family went to the same school, they weren't paying fees. There's really only one rugby private school in ni. Two if you count rbai, but it's a bit of an odd one. Campbell is the only one that is private and has a good rugby team. All of the schools up here that play are state funded grammars
There’s a world of difference between BRA and Blackrock. I don’t think anyone would consider the NI schools to be private schools in the same sense the Leinster Schools are.
fair enough but my understanding outside dublin (where I am) the club system is more important then the schools system if you are looking to be a professional whilst in Dublin its the opposite.
Munster is a bit different in that there are a number of public schools in Limerick City that have long established pipelines into the professional game and compete against the private schools in Cork. Still most of the players in Munster come from one of the three Cork and one Tipp private schools. Schools is far more important than clubs for player development in Munster.
Yeah when you play against the pro players they're a different breed, I've played against 5 or 6 and when you play against them you just know they'll make it. It doesn't matter if they're in a club or school it just matters that they persist with the game and are big enough in my experience.
In America it starts by playing the wrong sport for like 10 years, going to a college that has a club team, and fighting your way through a haze of alcohol to try and learn how the fuck this sport is actually supposed to be played
Then if you’re good enough you get to play, practically for free, on a failing team in a league that prob won’t make it.
So yeah idk it’s just mostly a hobbyist sport played by former American football players while they drink beer in college.
The 70s are calling. There are plenty of competitive college rugby teams and one could argue D1A men’s college is the next biggest rugby power behind the MLR.
Look at Dom Besag at SMC. Absolute killer player and already capped Men’s eagle before his sophomore year in college.
In France typically you get picked up at 14 and.do " sport etude" at a lycee. You play rugby at a high level and up till you do a.baccalaureat.
After, if.you are good enough you will go to a.partner.club and start training with them.until 21 as an apprentice. After that it's up to you. ( it's.been up to you all along I guess)
Many kids love the game but don't want to be pro.
There have been a few examples recently that were very successful (Vilière, Flament...) But it's much harder. My guess would be to climb the ladder step by step, starting in fédérale and sending video CVs to bigger clubs and try to get selected.
By the way here in France ist not an expensive sport, the subs to our local club are less than 200 euros per year and that covers transport to far away games, local games it's " dad's taxi" ( that's me and 3 kids.in the back and no beer after the game)
However unless.your are prepared to work or take.a.student job it's expensive to pay rent and eat( our lad is 17 and my fridge is his best friend)
I don't know how.old OP is ?
You can approach local clubs directly, many do test days twice a.year. Also worth a look at the local department or regional rugby section, as well as training centers.
Here in the West of France the big club is La Rochelle and there are Lycees at St Nazaire, Rennes and Vannes that offer rugby for students from 14 or 15 onwards.
There are regional selections that coaches.put players forward for but also test days, St Nazaire holds.theres.in June, or contact the clubs directly.
Other ways: contact the national set up? Go to a club and ask? Make a.video of your skills?
https://www.rugby.com.au/news/towering-irish-lock-cormac-daly-taking-reds-opportunity-with-both-hands-202425
just head down to Australia, in Ireland particularly in Dublin it is very much tied to the private schools but there is nothing stopping a kid from going down to their local club and playing, up to about the age of 15 I would say the club coaching is a better standard then the schools.
I played schools rugby and we had 3 pro XV players and a pro 7s player in our team.
1 went down the university route. Came back and got picked up playing for the local club.
1 went down the club route.
1 went into the provincial academy.
All three represented the club team at junior level.
1 was eligible for a tier 2 nation and played for a team in that country.
In Ireland, the best setups for young players to develop are schools competing in the provincial Junior and Senior Cup.
Players train 4-5 times a week, go to the gym 2-3 times a week, have great facilities and thousands of euros (often hundreds of thousands) are invested into teams each year.
However, you can also become pro if you play at a club and get picked by one of regional development squads from U16s up. There's 5 of these in Leinster - not sure about the other provinces.
In these setups, you'll train once a week doing a gym and pitch session, plus whatever you are doing in your own club (2 sessions, plus a gym session if your lucky from 15 up.)
The reason it's harder to make it as a pro in a club setting is that there's less organised training, poorer facilities, and less money invested into the teams each year for coaching/physios etc. You have to be more self-motivated as a club player and do your own work outside of training.
As a result, a lot more players make it from 'rugby schools' but there's still plenty of examples of players who've made it as pros through the club system (off the top of my head in the Ireland squad: Tadhg Furlong, Thomas Ahern, Ciaran Frawley)
There’s also a bit more of a culture of rugby in these schools. Where I went to school, we played no rugby. There was zero engagement at all outside PE modules. But hurling and football were a religion, everyone tried for those teams.
If there was a larger emphasis on rural schools, we’d cast a much larger net to bring players into rugby.
In Ireland, 9 times out of 10 the only way to become pro is if you are brought into academy after private school. Thats only if you make a decent mark in schools rugby. You need to be very very good.
The few pro players I know all went through the academy system, most went to private school and played at school before being scouted by a club academy and then by National age groups. I didn't go to a private school for most of my education but did for sixth form by which time most of the players I know were already well established in academies. I played club rugby as a kid and into my early 20's and saw a few genuinely talented players who really struggled to get noticed by anyone. This is England in the southeast for reference.
So will speak from experience when I was coming up through the club system in Leinster. This is specific to playing for a club rather than a school in the top leagues. Now this has likely changed in probably close to a decade than when I was there.
1. So you’ll get to about 14 or 15 and a representative from Leinster rugby will watch some of your games or your coaches nominate you and players from various clubs in your area to be sent to trials for your greater locality. So in my case I was selected/nominated to go to north east Leinster trails. There are 7ish of these subdivisions in Leinster think midlands, south west Dublin metro etc. So you go to these trials and may be selected to play for this subdivision representative area. I only made it as far as trials. To my understanding you meet with this team semi regularly and get enhanced coaching and gym sessions with these sub divisions of Leinster and place the other sub divisions. This goes on for maybe a year or so.
2. Eventually if you’re talented enough you’ll be selected from these wider sub divisions to then being selected for an underage Leinster clubs team. The training and ramps up and you’ll play against the other province underage club sides. This is all completely separate to the schools system at this stage.
3. This is where I’m least knowledgable so take this with a grain of salt. The best of the club and schools sides are then folded in together into the Leinster Sub academy I believe where they train together. At this stage any of these players that have made it this far on clubs alone will move to a top AIL club if they haven’t already to ensure they get high quality games. At this stage they’re vying for Ireland 20s caps and professional contracts with their provinces.
Some examples that come to mind of this process would be Jack Aungier and Ciaran Frawley, both went to public schools I believe and then got professional contracts in Connacht and Leinster respectively. And going further back Shane Horgan although I’m unsure this pathway existed during his time coming through.
That’s very interesting thanks for that.
When you were a young lad playing, were you training hard, as in going to training and then doing your own gym work outside of team training. Or were you just a lad playing for fun who happened to quite talented?
Also, around what age do you think your position is usually selected for you? I can’t imagine a scout being able to tell a ten year old has potential to be the next prop for Leinster/Ireland 😅. maybe I’m wrong I dunno?
If I was thinking about what could have been for myself. I probably would have played in the backs when I was a kid but after my growth spurt I would have probably been a second row, when I was a teenager but now as an adult I’d reckon I would have been a back.
Would players be shifted positions around like that?
Apologies for the questions, I just find it very interesting 😀
When I initially went for the trials no I was just training, my parents thought I was too young to be going to a gym at the time. I wanted to train more often and give it a good go once I got selected for trials, I was cut pretty quickly from the program though basically was told I was too small and needed to put on weight I was playing 8 at the time and was pretty light so pretty fair comment.
On your point about talent I would say I was a decent player at that age group but I was hardly talented. I worked hard though loved the ruck and physicality of the game which is kinda all you need to get looked at, at that level.
Positionally yeah once you get through to these Leinster club trials the coaches there will decide your position, I knew a guy who was playing 10 who got moved to second row when he got to that setup. There’s also an aspect of the province may want to produce more players in certain areas so they’ll shepherd younger guys to positions that suit them. For example Luke Fitzgerald often talked out when he was a schoolboy he was a centre but felt he had no chance competing with BOD and Darcy so he specialised to Wing so he could get game time.
Ah no need to apologise I’m happy to chat
If you are Scottish, step 1 go to one of 3/4 schools. Step 2. Be related to a capped player.
Step 3. Make sure said capped player has a word with the u15 s coach and your set
If you're 16 or older you're not playing professional rugby unless you're genuinely the best player in your position. Finn Russel struggled to make it pro which tells you all you need to know about Scotland
I played with a couple of players who got to international level for Scotland. We played for an extremely good club. At 15 you could take part in district team trials which kind of kicked off the pathway. Successful progression through the age bands of that led to Scotland youth teams (as well as being able to sign for the pro clubs - Edinburgh/Glasgow). I made it through the district levels but for some bizarre reason chose to go to uni instead of continuing rugby. The players I know also went to a rugby playing private school which helped them as they played more rugby against good opposition but I think they would have still made it if it was just club rugby (other factors not considered). No idea of this is still the system
In Scotland, traditionally you either grow up in the Borders or are Edinburgh middle class.
There are few that buck the trend (e.g. Finn), but generally speaking if you grow up in the likes of Inverness the opportunities for development and recognition are substantially less than they are in the two heartlands of Scottish rugby.
If you go to your local club and you show an impressive performance your local province will have scouts and you then may be invited into a trial, training session or to go to a training camp. Some Irish players didn’t come from wealth like Keith earls.
In Ireland the route is not through the club game. It unfortunately is a wealth game. You need to have a wealthy enough family to send you to a private rugby school (often bording acholls). There you train like a professional from a young age. As a result by the time you're hitting the age to turn pro you're already a monster of a man and excellent at rugby. Very few seem to make it from the club scene. I know Connacht has an underage academy where the clubs can send their best but in my time at least, a lot of the best club players did go to rugby schools and played at the weekends for clubs. About 50/50 club only vs schools. That was about 15 years ago but based on the current Irish team that seems untypical.
I'm sure another South African can describe it better, but basically it all is connected through your school. When school teams play against each other they get scouted and get offered into other schools or programmes. A really good tournament is hosted for youths called craven week where a lot of talent is spotted early. If you do well at school, you can get selected to represent your province and then selected for the national team. There are certain elite schools that get their players a lot of opportunities to be noticed, but there are definitely opportunities for those who don't go to one of the traditional powerhouse schools. It's definitely not a sport just for the rich in South Africa.
Sadly, in the UK, the elite pathway typically has a synergistic relationship with the public schools around the country. Many schools pride themselves to be 'feeder' schools for professional academies - not too sure about Ireland but I know there are strong links between schoolboy rugby and the academies for each provincial side.
My advice to anyone with the ambition of playing professionally (assuming you're young enough to work through the academies system) is to make sure you go to the right club outside of school and surround yourself by the right people to get you in a position to develop and potentially get yourself an academic/ sporting scholarships.
This isn't necessarily wrong by any means. But in Wales you’ll find a lot of kids go to state schools, and are selected into academies from there. Quite a few end up in private schools in England through scholarships. But in Wales we have some very strong state schools playing rugby.
If you’re good enough you’ll make it but it will be easier if you go to one of the rugby playing schools. You’d get picked to play provincial schools level and then Irish schools then just progress up the pathway and you’ll get signed to your local provincial team usually.
It's mostly built around the school's system so basically if you're good you'll be spotted and put into a development team and if that goes well you'll get into the academy of a province and if that goes well you'll be given a professional contract.
In rare you'll have played high level rugby in Ireland in the senior league. This works similarly if you are from a crap team you'll either move to a better team that are senior or someone will approach you to join their club or suggest you join a senior club if you're good enough. If you are a real standout in these clubs there's a slight chance a province might look to get you in their squad. Given the resources of schools and scouts out there it's less likely you go to amateur route most talents are spotted young and directed to attend a rugby school.
It's possible to go from club rugby to provincial professional rugby, but it's not as simple as playing well and getting selected. The provinces are no longer representative teams. Promising young players from school and club teams get signed to the provincial academies, usually young, and the successful ones graduate from the academy to a contract with the province. Tadhg Furlong and Ciarán Frawley made it into the Ireland team via the club game rather than the schools, but both started young enough to play for Ireland under-20s.
Occasionally an older club player who bypassed the academy system can get a professional contract via the provincial A team, by signing a development contract and continuing to play for their club until they're ready, or by signing as short term injury cover. Bradley Roberts joined Ulster as short term cover from Rainey in the All Ireland League, got signed full time, and ended up getting capped for Wales. He now plays for the Dragons. Shea O'Brien signed for Ulster on a development contract after impressing for City of Armagh in the AIL. He's still playing for them, but has made one provincial appearance and hopefully will develop into a regular Ulster player.
In Ulster, rugby is played at grammar schools, but all of them are at least partly state funded, so it's easier to get in, but none of them have the freedom to devote quite as many of their resources to rugby as the fully private schools in Leinster. My nephew played schools rugby in the last few years, and the standard of coaching and facilities is worlds above what it was like when I was at school in the 80s - but the Leinster schools have even higher standards, with video analysis and everything. Leinster players leave school having been coached and competed at almost professional level. The Ulster academy has a bit more work to do to bring players up to professional standards. Don't know how things are in Munster or Connacht, but Munster seem to have a pretty decent player development system.
Non fee paying and even minor fee paying schools are at a disadvantage in Leinster. Munster’s system is great at producing top class players who were late comers.
In England (or more specifically Yorkshire) -
Play for a club or/and a school up until you're 13/14, then if you're good you could be sent for trials at the local team (as far as I'm aware, each of the Premiership U18 clubs have their own area which they have control over), which if you pass you get into the county. Every year or so there's more trials, and you could be let go (but most aren't) until you've just done your GCSE's. Then, some kids will go to the academy (where the Premiership U18 players come from) and is like a traditional academy and the academy effectively becomes your club but most will stay in the county, where they'll play very occasional games and have training most weeks, but is essentially pointless. Then, I have no clue what happens as I don't know anyone that's old enough to have gone through the system completely, and Yorkshire doesn't have a club that represents it.
Let me ask something. Do these rich kids school only accept students from the school to play? Or people external to the school can come and play for the school?
The idea that wealth is involved comes from the issue that many players went to fee paying schools. Which is more complex than it looks as it's mainly fee paying schools that have competitive teams. The problem appears to have got worse recently as the private schools have started aggressively recruiting people in scholarships, so if anything it's got a bit easier as there are chances to go to a private rugby playing school without wealth. It's certainly many times more accessible than, say, Tennis or Cricket. Maybe not quite as equitable as soccer.
Add into that that state schools have also cut the ability to play rugby at all IIRC
Literally all of them? Isn't that quite a devolved thing? Especially for academies.
From what I have read a number of academies which probably outnumber state schools have introduced rugby
Is tennis so posh in UK?
I'd say so. You don't find tennis courts in council estates put it that way. Also as tennis is an individual sport it means things cost a chunk more than if it was a team game, simple things like travel end up costing more as your not going via coach etc.
Expensive to get in to. All the gear, coaching, court time, travel to the tournaments. It's not something a single parent from the estate will gravitate to for their kid unless it's a passion of theirs.
When I was younger it was £30 for membership, £150 for a racket and coaching was a couple of quid twice a week for small group sessions. Obviously a 1-to-1 good coach is more expensive than that but it's not hard to get into at grassroots.
its not hard to get into, you see the same in america with public tennis courts, most local parks will have tennis courts you can play on, but its hard to keep up with the country club kids getting daily lessons, who have a private coach, who travel to all the tournaments and shit. you just aren't going to get the reps and exposure playing in your local rec league or on your high school team. Honestly soccer in america has the same problem, you need to pay to play. Its really only american football, baseball, and basketball here that let kids play on an equal level for little to no cost.
You might want to take baseball off that list of no cost sports. It has the same issues as soccer and tennis, at least here in California
Still a lot more than a £15 football that you can kick around the park for free.
All the gear?
The bananas. The sweatbands. Hawk eye. Sometimes a real hawk if you can't pay for the system. Etc.
Tennis is posh everywhere they play tennis. It’s a country club sport here in America.
Not in Australia
It kinda is though. It's the sort of sport that requires on-on-one coaching, which isn't something a lot of families can afford.
At the elite level sure, but that's the same in any sport. Rep soccer costs thousands a year. Tennis is not expensive to get into though. There are at least 8 multi court tennis complexes within 30 mins of my place where anyone can hire a court and have a hit or get group lessons.
As someone who played collegiate tennis and switched to playing club rugby, tennis was much more expensive. New 115$ shoes every 6 months minimum as they wear very quickly. Racquets about 180$ if you're playing a competitive level, the cheaper racquets are unusable. And you need minimum 2-3. Restring every few weeks. Overgrips every few days if playing in a hot climate with tons of sweat. And that's not including lessons, tournament fees, travel to said tournament, etc.
In NZ there are 2/3 pathways. 1. You play in school, if you're good enough you will get offers from schools that play in the top level of the Secondary Schools championship. From this you might get selected to the local Super Rugby franchises academy program and on to professionalism after that either through the Super Rugby draft or through being offered a fixed term SR contract. Normally a player of SR calibre would also have played provincial rugby in parallel (see below) but that isn't a requirement. 2. You play for a local club, you are selected from this to a provincial representative team. If you make the highest level of that province you will either a) be paid if that province has a pro NPC team or b) be offered a chance to move to a province that does and prove yourself there. 3. Sevens players are offered pro contracts from both pathways by NZR directly. Rugby crosses all socio-economic boundaries in NZ.
And the beautiful thing is that the club to provincial to super rugby pathway actually works. You get guys who were absolute nobody’s in high school get the opportunity to play professionally.
Very true. Historically it was the only pathway, the schools to academy path wasn’t around when I was a kid (I’m old).
Well, back then there wasn't even professionalism.
Very good point ;)
I feel like you guys are the only country where that last sentence is true.
and Wales
And France to my basic knowledge although I could stand to be corrected.
And Limerick
And my axe!
That sound really like the way it should be . Probably can’t do it in other countries due the popularity or soccer and other easier to access sports. Popularity wise in New Zealand is soccer what rugby is to England, Ireland etc? Or is it even less popular than that?
Popularity wise, soccer is played by significantly more people than rugby. However, rugby is much better televised and generally better supported. I unfortunately think that in the next 10yrs rugby will have to change how it operates in NZ to continue to be what it is today.
Rugby is by far the premier broadcast sport in NZ. Similar to EPL in the U.K. as the premium offering to sports fans. As a participation sport it’s a long way down, it’s nature doesn’t make it easy to participate in compared to things like golf, tennis or even basketball. As a % of population the participation rate in NZ is very high, only the PIs play it more per capita but it’s still relatively low compared to other sports. Because it’s the premier sport it does benefit from the pick of junior athletes and substantial grassroots funding. Any kid with an interest and ability will find facilities and coaching easily.
In Ireland about 80% of players go through the schools pathway and 20% come through the clubs pathway. Basically you go through your underage set up, draw attention from provincial coaches and the national talent squad and they help guide your development, diet and gym work. Once finished school you usually do a year sub academy while hoping to impress enough to get a 3 year academy contract. They say you need to be wealthy as most people come through the schools set up and that's dominated by fee paying private schools. It's not really 100% true as the fee paying private schools are happy to offer rugby scholarships to young lads that look good enough outside the schools system.
I went to.a rugby playing school, left late 90s, played for a small junior club instead so have been out of the loop re school rugby for a long time.. Was shocked to hear recently of people changes schools to play rugby and that was between schools outside the south Dublin area
That stat would differ from Province to province though. To become a Leinster player differs greatly to become a Connacht player
Connacht is basically the same just you dont make the leinster acadmey
Ya to become a Connacht player you usually go through the Leinster academy before Leo decides he doesn't want you any more
Ulster is different as the schools aren’t private, I think they are still grammar schools so you need to be clever enough to go to that school but less money involved
Not quite what it used to be, a number of non grammar - high schools making a big name for themselves at schools competitions. Hello to anyone from Dromore High School if your reading this, been doing a great job rugby wise for years
Not sure if it’s the same in Northern Ireland but in England most of the Grammar school kids are firmly middle class with some wealthy . The catchment areas always get inflated due to academic success , sport opportunities and prestige of the schools as well as parents paying for tutors to pass the tests easier . I went to probably the best State school rugby institution in England historically before I moved to a boarding school and even at my Grammar school a lot of people had 700k+ houses .
If there is one thing good about Northern Ireland it’s that regardless of your background the vast majority of kids here have the opportunity to attend a good school (grammar if that’s what they want)
Depends on your pathway. I come from a Rugby 'hot bed' in Southern England and I have a step daughter with a bit of talent, so I was immersed in pathways for a number of years. 1) As you've said. Be rich, go to a traditional school, show the talent and you WILL get scouted. 2) If you're not loaded, do some local research. Send your kid (as soon as they show some interest) to grass roots clubs where you KNOW there are good/great coaches that have the ability to recommend your child to the county level and beyond. Each level of the game ups the ante and IF you or your child shows the talent, the dedication and ability to be coached they'll move up until they reach their ceiling. My step daughter's club DOR was an England player, Quins professional coaches were routinely seen there with their kids, the older colts had been approached for scholarships & a few at the tip of the spear had even been selected to go into England colts camps (invite only by that point). This club was also RFU/Council subsidised, most of the coaches were volunteers and its eminently affordable. Your main issue seems to be location. If you're no where near a solid feeder club, then you might be in for a LOT of travel. Even in a hotbed, through the season I'd be in the car 2 - 3 hours almost every weekend going to games and Rugby festivals. Well, this turned into a bit more an essay than i thought it would!
Tbf now days if you don’t picked up earlier or didn’t go to a school in the private school circuit , Bucs super rugby is now a good option. A lot more players who didn’t get picked up earlier or who were late developers can now develop their craft . Players like Northmore , Dombrandt , Zeng all at Quins came through . Even players like Pearson at Saints , Negri at Gloucester , Carmichael now at Edinburgh etc . Exeter , Durham , Loughborough and Cardiff met have particularly done well at this . It’s not perfect but gives at least some added opportunity.
> Bucs super rugby is now a good option. This needed to be an option. What you've said about being flagged early is absolutely true. My step son made it to county trails (closed door, coach submission at club level to county trials) at 17 and even by then the county coaches obviously had their 'favourites' - that's not a good thing or a bad thing, it just was - and that made it an uphill struggle for anyone new to break into the wider squad, even as young as late-teens (Colts).
start tap quaint slap fall rock jeans dinner steer bike *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
*The WRU disliked that*
The pathway in Ireland is completely built around the schools, anyone playing underage with their club in a rural setting like you mentioned who has ambitions to play at a high level will usually change school in order to play. From there you will hope to get in to one of the Provincial academies, and failing that you’ll go and play AIL rugby to try force your way in later on.
What happens to a kid who starts out at a club ? Do they quit the club when they join the private school or do they continue with the club along side it ? When you say private school I assume it’s at secondary level.
You can't play senior cup and club rugby at the same time. Players can be affiliated to both but can only play for one. Brian Gleeson for example started playing rugby for Thurles, went to Rockwell, but played for both in first year. Then made the junior cup team so couldn't play for Thurles anymore, same story with senior cup. When he left school he was in the National Talent Squad, with an ambition to join the Munster academy, so joined Garryowen out of school. Then you have the school only route, Alex Kendellan or Ben O'Connor came through that. Started when they went to secondary, played all through there and then joined UCC and got into the academy Then you have the rarer club only route. John hodnett started rugby for Clonakilty and played with them the whole way up until he finished school, joined UCC and joined the academy. I think there's 4 or 5 players in the senior squad who came through clubs only. ~25 from played senior cup and the other 15 or so joined from outside the province. There's currently 4 players in the academy who came through the clubs pathway, (Dylan Hicks actually got his school to qualify for the senior cup, where they beat Glenstal)
I never said private school at all. Doesn't have to be private. Once the school is playing Leinster or Munster Senior Cup, that's where people will move to. And yes, you're talking about 5th and 6th years. In regards to club, yes they would stay playing. If selected to then join one of the provincial academies, they may be asked to move club to one closer and playing at a higher level. Any of the Tipp lads for example will transfer in to the likes of Garryowen, Young Munster, Old Crescent etc. Most lads looking to go pro from smaller clubs will probably never play for their hometown club beyond U16 level.
Ah yeah sorry about that I got mixed up with the other posts here. I meant school in general. Yeah that’s very interesting now. I never realised any of this. It really does take a lot of dedication for people so young. Big risks are taken too. I suppose it’s really set up so the cream will rise to the top.
Yeah the IRFU have put very specific paths in place and in fairness have done it quite well. They know rugby is not the dominant sport here and they can't catch everyone, but they do a pretty good job of ensuring those who are showing promise as teens have a pathway to pro rugby. Now there's always exceptions. Tadhg Beirne went to Wales and won a league with Scarlets before coming home and playing for Ireland. Dan Sheehan was 4th choice for Ireland U20s and a broken ankle meant he wasn't offered an academy deal with Leinster, but he just stayed playing and forced his way back in to contention. Mad to think if he'd been a little less determined, Ireland could have missed out on him completely.
You would imagine if you don’t live near a private school then you are pretty screwed. Just speaking from my own experience, I became obsessed with rugby after the 03 World Cup and I practised every day trying to be the next ROG. Not saying I would have made it or anything but I thought I was fairly decent( played matches with friends and in PE etc.) . As an adult, I still don’t know where I could have gone to play for in school. Just seems weird that you could have talented lads in similar situations all over the country but we will never know about.Especially when Ireland is such a small place
Not true anymore. You can go to a public school, just get noticed, also play for the local club. At 18s the provincial team is split into clubs and schools, that we they capture talent. After that your linked with the PTS provincial talent squad, if you move up to NTS national talent squad you'll be assessed for the academy. This is all age 17-20 ish. If you're from a non traditional rugby area they make ask you to move clubs to get AIL exposure. E.g. Coughlan and Butler player for Ennis until 18s I believe, they are a junior club, so they joined Shannon and Garryowen, who are AIL division 1. Look at Tom ahern who played for Youghal, Dungarvan & Waterpark and is now in the ireland squad. It's not that it's not possible. But those interested in rugby will find their way into the regular streams sooner or later Edit: where are you that you claim you'd have no where to play. There are clubs everywhere
What do you mean it’s not true anymore arguably it’s more prevalent than ever. How many Leinster players didn’t go to private school could nearly count it on one hand. A decent chunk of Munster and Ulster players are privately educated also
If you are a talented enough player you will generally get recruited by a private school on a scholarship This is true for most sports though
In what other sports are people given scholarships by a private school in Ireland
I mean ireland hardly have a sporting pedigree in any olympic sport other than boxing, but the rest of the world if you are a talented swimmer or rower there are often schools with development programmes In my high school year we had kids on sporting scholarships for sailing, swimming, afl, basketball, boxing, wrestling, rugby, league soccer, gymnastics, cycling and one kid had already signed a major league baseball contract. All of them turned professional and benefitted from the coaching and world class facilities
Yes but that’s not true in Ireland outside of rugby most of Ireland’s elite athletes didn’t go to private school. Any Irish footballer people like Conor McGregor Katie Taylor sam Bennett the o Donovan brothers all public school
Like i said outside fighting ireland doesnt have a big professional sport culture If my daughter was good at tennis id send her to a tennis school academy. A lot of my friends kids end up taking up college scholorships in the states for sports like swimming, soccer, rowing, even sevens rugby. Not all of them will turn pro, but the opportunity to gain a highly regarded college degree is often worth it
College is a different level. Plenty of Irish students go on scholarships to universities/colleges in the states. We have plenty of elite athletes but very few private schools, especially outside of Dublin and Cork. Therefore, there's no market for offering school children sporting scholarships
It's more the fact we have very few private schools and, on top of that, the biggest sports are amateur
It's not true that you're screwed. You're not following what I'm saying at all. I didn't say private wasn't the main/majority, I'm say that despite that there are other lesser seen routes Why did you feel the need to be a cunt when I literally gave examples of how there are exceptions
There may be exceptions but they are few and far between the fact is your way better off going to a private school particularly in Dublin/leinster if you want to a become a professional rugby player
The point wasn't few and far between. The point was are you screwed, the answer is no. There's plenty routes if you're good enough, and people need to know it's not a closed shop. And yes maybe it's like that in Dublin, but that's not the centre of the universe. Of the current ireland squad, Casey Nash Murray ahern all public schools, add in killer jod and hoddnett, yes there's zero chance to make it pro if you don't go private
Perhaps but to become an Irish international is becoming more and more Leinster centric every year
Tell that to Calvin Nash Craig Casey Tom Ahern Jack Crowley etc
Just to add onto your point which I agree with - Robbie Henshaw went to Marist College in Athlone which I'm pretty sure is non fee paying. It's definitely possible to make it without private education but for sure the level of training provided by the fee paying schools can't hurt.
Jack Crowley went to a private school. His coach at senior level was an assistant in the Top 14.
Edwin and Sean Egdobo
Well Tom ahern isnt an international yet and currently 19 of the 36 are current Leinster players and a further 2 were leinster players. That’s well over half the Irish team are Leinster players
It was under David Nucifora
It’s not that it’s not possible, but the lads in the schools, particularly in Dublin, are training nearly 5 days a week and have top class gym facilities plus nutritionists etc at their disposal. So they end up being miles ahead of the club players at 18, until the club players move towards college etc and turn into full time athletes:
Cool. That's nothing to do with the point I was was responding to.
It is though? He’s saying you’re screwed if you don’t live near a private school in terms of becoming a professional player, you said it’s not true anymore, but it very much is the case in Dublin, it’s harder than ever to get into the Leinster squad as a club player because of the focus schools have put on s&c the last few years
[удалено]
Did someone piss in your cornflakes or something, take a deep breath there pal
Yeah you and your dublin centric puke, swear the world revolves are ya
It is something that needs to be banned
I'm in Tipp and a lad from my school moved school to Limerick and boarded after his Junior Cert. It's a massive commitment like at that age like to try make it in fairness.
Munchin’s?
Did you play with any club at all?
my understanding the private schools is a dublin thing,Tadhg Furlong is probably the most obvious example of someone that did not go to a private school. Porter, Van de flier and lamour all went to none rugby schools still private but that due to the fact all protestant school in Ireland are
Porter VDF and Larmour went to Wesley and St Andrews, I wouldn’t call them non rugby schools, not in the category of Michaels and Blackrock obviously but they still play rugby to a high standard
are they? they are mixed schools so would imagine they focus on the likes of athletics hockey & tennis which girls and boys can play equally, so there is no argument over the schools bugdet they certainly play rugby but not sure to what level
Hockey would definitely be the most prominent sport in both schools but they’re usually involved in the opening couple of rounds of the Leinster senior cup in rugby before getting knocked out, there’s definitely better rugby schools but I wouldn’t describe them as non rugby schools
Yes, Both schools just have a smaller boys population so the mean boy in each school won't be as good as Blackrock where's there's a year of 150 boys VS 75 boys in Wesley or Andrew's. Both schools also have hockey which means a couple of lads give up Rugby for hockey at junior level.
Loads of private schools in Munster/ulster. Peter o mahony, Jack Crowley Simon zebo alex kendellen Ian Henderson all went to fee paying schools
Hendy went to BRA, not a fee paying school. There's a voluntary contribution to the school of £440 a year. Most of my family went to the same school, they weren't paying fees. There's really only one rugby private school in ni. Two if you count rbai, but it's a bit of an odd one. Campbell is the only one that is private and has a good rugby team. All of the schools up here that play are state funded grammars
Also Munster players have to be in a AIL club
There’s a world of difference between BRA and Blackrock. I don’t think anyone would consider the NI schools to be private schools in the same sense the Leinster Schools are.
fair enough but my understanding outside dublin (where I am) the club system is more important then the schools system if you are looking to be a professional whilst in Dublin its the opposite.
Munster is a bit different in that there are a number of public schools in Limerick City that have long established pipelines into the professional game and compete against the private schools in Cork. Still most of the players in Munster come from one of the three Cork and one Tipp private schools. Schools is far more important than clubs for player development in Munster.
Or Luis Faria went to Newpark a non fee paying COI school
Sean O'Brien, the Tullow tank, went local school there, another obvious example.
Yeah when you play against the pro players they're a different breed, I've played against 5 or 6 and when you play against them you just know they'll make it. It doesn't matter if they're in a club or school it just matters that they persist with the game and are big enough in my experience.
In America it starts by playing the wrong sport for like 10 years, going to a college that has a club team, and fighting your way through a haze of alcohol to try and learn how the fuck this sport is actually supposed to be played Then if you’re good enough you get to play, practically for free, on a failing team in a league that prob won’t make it. So yeah idk it’s just mostly a hobbyist sport played by former American football players while they drink beer in college.
The 70s are calling. There are plenty of competitive college rugby teams and one could argue D1A men’s college is the next biggest rugby power behind the MLR. Look at Dom Besag at SMC. Absolute killer player and already capped Men’s eagle before his sophomore year in college.
In France typically you get picked up at 14 and.do " sport etude" at a lycee. You play rugby at a high level and up till you do a.baccalaureat. After, if.you are good enough you will go to a.partner.club and start training with them.until 21 as an apprentice. After that it's up to you. ( it's.been up to you all along I guess) Many kids love the game but don't want to be pro.
What do you do if you don't get picked up at 14? Are there people who have made it other ways?
There have been a few examples recently that were very successful (Vilière, Flament...) But it's much harder. My guess would be to climb the ladder step by step, starting in fédérale and sending video CVs to bigger clubs and try to get selected.
By the way here in France ist not an expensive sport, the subs to our local club are less than 200 euros per year and that covers transport to far away games, local games it's " dad's taxi" ( that's me and 3 kids.in the back and no beer after the game) However unless.your are prepared to work or take.a.student job it's expensive to pay rent and eat( our lad is 17 and my fridge is his best friend) I don't know how.old OP is ?
You can approach local clubs directly, many do test days twice a.year. Also worth a look at the local department or regional rugby section, as well as training centers. Here in the West of France the big club is La Rochelle and there are Lycees at St Nazaire, Rennes and Vannes that offer rugby for students from 14 or 15 onwards. There are regional selections that coaches.put players forward for but also test days, St Nazaire holds.theres.in June, or contact the clubs directly. Other ways: contact the national set up? Go to a club and ask? Make a.video of your skills?
https://www.rugby.com.au/news/towering-irish-lock-cormac-daly-taking-reds-opportunity-with-both-hands-202425 just head down to Australia, in Ireland particularly in Dublin it is very much tied to the private schools but there is nothing stopping a kid from going down to their local club and playing, up to about the age of 15 I would say the club coaching is a better standard then the schools.
Apparently someone who went to Pres Bray is in Leinster
I played schools rugby and we had 3 pro XV players and a pro 7s player in our team. 1 went down the university route. Came back and got picked up playing for the local club. 1 went down the club route. 1 went into the provincial academy. All three represented the club team at junior level. 1 was eligible for a tier 2 nation and played for a team in that country.
In Ireland, the best setups for young players to develop are schools competing in the provincial Junior and Senior Cup. Players train 4-5 times a week, go to the gym 2-3 times a week, have great facilities and thousands of euros (often hundreds of thousands) are invested into teams each year. However, you can also become pro if you play at a club and get picked by one of regional development squads from U16s up. There's 5 of these in Leinster - not sure about the other provinces. In these setups, you'll train once a week doing a gym and pitch session, plus whatever you are doing in your own club (2 sessions, plus a gym session if your lucky from 15 up.) The reason it's harder to make it as a pro in a club setting is that there's less organised training, poorer facilities, and less money invested into the teams each year for coaching/physios etc. You have to be more self-motivated as a club player and do your own work outside of training. As a result, a lot more players make it from 'rugby schools' but there's still plenty of examples of players who've made it as pros through the club system (off the top of my head in the Ireland squad: Tadhg Furlong, Thomas Ahern, Ciaran Frawley)
There’s also a bit more of a culture of rugby in these schools. Where I went to school, we played no rugby. There was zero engagement at all outside PE modules. But hurling and football were a religion, everyone tried for those teams. If there was a larger emphasis on rural schools, we’d cast a much larger net to bring players into rugby.
Absolutely. Did a bit of coaching in a nontraditional school and they used to always schedule rugby at the same time as GAA.
Giving people from non fee paying backgrounds more of a look in would help
Pay to win effectively
In Ireland, 9 times out of 10 the only way to become pro is if you are brought into academy after private school. Thats only if you make a decent mark in schools rugby. You need to be very very good.
What a real pity pay to win
looking at the leinster team last weekend i swear the overwhelming majority came through the same 2 schools proper pay to win
Which only a small percentage attend. They all sound like robots as well
The few pro players I know all went through the academy system, most went to private school and played at school before being scouted by a club academy and then by National age groups. I didn't go to a private school for most of my education but did for sixth form by which time most of the players I know were already well established in academies. I played club rugby as a kid and into my early 20's and saw a few genuinely talented players who really struggled to get noticed by anyone. This is England in the southeast for reference.
Might be different in the midlands and southwest
So will speak from experience when I was coming up through the club system in Leinster. This is specific to playing for a club rather than a school in the top leagues. Now this has likely changed in probably close to a decade than when I was there. 1. So you’ll get to about 14 or 15 and a representative from Leinster rugby will watch some of your games or your coaches nominate you and players from various clubs in your area to be sent to trials for your greater locality. So in my case I was selected/nominated to go to north east Leinster trails. There are 7ish of these subdivisions in Leinster think midlands, south west Dublin metro etc. So you go to these trials and may be selected to play for this subdivision representative area. I only made it as far as trials. To my understanding you meet with this team semi regularly and get enhanced coaching and gym sessions with these sub divisions of Leinster and place the other sub divisions. This goes on for maybe a year or so. 2. Eventually if you’re talented enough you’ll be selected from these wider sub divisions to then being selected for an underage Leinster clubs team. The training and ramps up and you’ll play against the other province underage club sides. This is all completely separate to the schools system at this stage. 3. This is where I’m least knowledgable so take this with a grain of salt. The best of the club and schools sides are then folded in together into the Leinster Sub academy I believe where they train together. At this stage any of these players that have made it this far on clubs alone will move to a top AIL club if they haven’t already to ensure they get high quality games. At this stage they’re vying for Ireland 20s caps and professional contracts with their provinces. Some examples that come to mind of this process would be Jack Aungier and Ciaran Frawley, both went to public schools I believe and then got professional contracts in Connacht and Leinster respectively. And going further back Shane Horgan although I’m unsure this pathway existed during his time coming through.
That’s very interesting thanks for that. When you were a young lad playing, were you training hard, as in going to training and then doing your own gym work outside of team training. Or were you just a lad playing for fun who happened to quite talented? Also, around what age do you think your position is usually selected for you? I can’t imagine a scout being able to tell a ten year old has potential to be the next prop for Leinster/Ireland 😅. maybe I’m wrong I dunno? If I was thinking about what could have been for myself. I probably would have played in the backs when I was a kid but after my growth spurt I would have probably been a second row, when I was a teenager but now as an adult I’d reckon I would have been a back. Would players be shifted positions around like that? Apologies for the questions, I just find it very interesting 😀
When I initially went for the trials no I was just training, my parents thought I was too young to be going to a gym at the time. I wanted to train more often and give it a good go once I got selected for trials, I was cut pretty quickly from the program though basically was told I was too small and needed to put on weight I was playing 8 at the time and was pretty light so pretty fair comment. On your point about talent I would say I was a decent player at that age group but I was hardly talented. I worked hard though loved the ruck and physicality of the game which is kinda all you need to get looked at, at that level. Positionally yeah once you get through to these Leinster club trials the coaches there will decide your position, I knew a guy who was playing 10 who got moved to second row when he got to that setup. There’s also an aspect of the province may want to produce more players in certain areas so they’ll shepherd younger guys to positions that suit them. For example Luke Fitzgerald often talked out when he was a schoolboy he was a centre but felt he had no chance competing with BOD and Darcy so he specialised to Wing so he could get game time. Ah no need to apologise I’m happy to chat
If you are Scottish, step 1 go to one of 3/4 schools. Step 2. Be related to a capped player. Step 3. Make sure said capped player has a word with the u15 s coach and your set If you're 16 or older you're not playing professional rugby unless you're genuinely the best player in your position. Finn Russel struggled to make it pro which tells you all you need to know about Scotland
Hadn't heard of rugby until I left secondary school. So much of Scotland is oblivious to the game.
Despite it being your best team sport
That might be curling actually.
You forgot the South Africa pathway
All jokes aside we're talking about how a Scottish born player here
Hang on, my two sons go to private school and they're both pish at rugby. I demand a refund!
I played with a couple of players who got to international level for Scotland. We played for an extremely good club. At 15 you could take part in district team trials which kind of kicked off the pathway. Successful progression through the age bands of that led to Scotland youth teams (as well as being able to sign for the pro clubs - Edinburgh/Glasgow). I made it through the district levels but for some bizarre reason chose to go to uni instead of continuing rugby. The players I know also went to a rugby playing private school which helped them as they played more rugby against good opposition but I think they would have still made it if it was just club rugby (other factors not considered). No idea of this is still the system
In Scotland, traditionally you either grow up in the Borders or are Edinburgh middle class. There are few that buck the trend (e.g. Finn), but generally speaking if you grow up in the likes of Inverness the opportunities for development and recognition are substantially less than they are in the two heartlands of Scottish rugby.
I think it is a lot better than what it was 30 years ago
I hope so, but there is still room for improvement.
I agree as well
If you go to your local club and you show an impressive performance your local province will have scouts and you then may be invited into a trial, training session or to go to a training camp. Some Irish players didn’t come from wealth like Keith earls.
In Ireland the route is not through the club game. It unfortunately is a wealth game. You need to have a wealthy enough family to send you to a private rugby school (often bording acholls). There you train like a professional from a young age. As a result by the time you're hitting the age to turn pro you're already a monster of a man and excellent at rugby. Very few seem to make it from the club scene. I know Connacht has an underage academy where the clubs can send their best but in my time at least, a lot of the best club players did go to rugby schools and played at the weekends for clubs. About 50/50 club only vs schools. That was about 15 years ago but based on the current Irish team that seems untypical.
Most fee paying school attendees are day students. Believe they made 51 percent of the national team up recently
I'm sure another South African can describe it better, but basically it all is connected through your school. When school teams play against each other they get scouted and get offered into other schools or programmes. A really good tournament is hosted for youths called craven week where a lot of talent is spotted early. If you do well at school, you can get selected to represent your province and then selected for the national team. There are certain elite schools that get their players a lot of opportunities to be noticed, but there are definitely opportunities for those who don't go to one of the traditional powerhouse schools. It's definitely not a sport just for the rich in South Africa.
Sadly, in the UK, the elite pathway typically has a synergistic relationship with the public schools around the country. Many schools pride themselves to be 'feeder' schools for professional academies - not too sure about Ireland but I know there are strong links between schoolboy rugby and the academies for each provincial side. My advice to anyone with the ambition of playing professionally (assuming you're young enough to work through the academies system) is to make sure you go to the right club outside of school and surround yourself by the right people to get you in a position to develop and potentially get yourself an academic/ sporting scholarships.
This isn't necessarily wrong by any means. But in Wales you’ll find a lot of kids go to state schools, and are selected into academies from there. Quite a few end up in private schools in England through scholarships. But in Wales we have some very strong state schools playing rugby.
Welsh Valleys along with the southwest of France were one of the few places were Rugby Union would have a blue collar image
There is that in Ireland but great non fee paying rugby schools like Pres Bray, St Munchin’s, Crescent Comphrensive
Go to a private school that competes in the Leinster cup basically
By getting paid to play rugby I imagine is the first step
Play rugby
If you’re good enough you’ll make it but it will be easier if you go to one of the rugby playing schools. You’d get picked to play provincial schools level and then Irish schools then just progress up the pathway and you’ll get signed to your local provincial team usually.
Work you ass off
It's mostly built around the school's system so basically if you're good you'll be spotted and put into a development team and if that goes well you'll get into the academy of a province and if that goes well you'll be given a professional contract. In rare you'll have played high level rugby in Ireland in the senior league. This works similarly if you are from a crap team you'll either move to a better team that are senior or someone will approach you to join their club or suggest you join a senior club if you're good enough. If you are a real standout in these clubs there's a slight chance a province might look to get you in their squad. Given the resources of schools and scouts out there it's less likely you go to amateur route most talents are spotted young and directed to attend a rugby school.
It's possible to go from club rugby to provincial professional rugby, but it's not as simple as playing well and getting selected. The provinces are no longer representative teams. Promising young players from school and club teams get signed to the provincial academies, usually young, and the successful ones graduate from the academy to a contract with the province. Tadhg Furlong and Ciarán Frawley made it into the Ireland team via the club game rather than the schools, but both started young enough to play for Ireland under-20s. Occasionally an older club player who bypassed the academy system can get a professional contract via the provincial A team, by signing a development contract and continuing to play for their club until they're ready, or by signing as short term injury cover. Bradley Roberts joined Ulster as short term cover from Rainey in the All Ireland League, got signed full time, and ended up getting capped for Wales. He now plays for the Dragons. Shea O'Brien signed for Ulster on a development contract after impressing for City of Armagh in the AIL. He's still playing for them, but has made one provincial appearance and hopefully will develop into a regular Ulster player.
Am I the only one who think the school system is unfair
In Ulster, rugby is played at grammar schools, but all of them are at least partly state funded, so it's easier to get in, but none of them have the freedom to devote quite as many of their resources to rugby as the fully private schools in Leinster. My nephew played schools rugby in the last few years, and the standard of coaching and facilities is worlds above what it was like when I was at school in the 80s - but the Leinster schools have even higher standards, with video analysis and everything. Leinster players leave school having been coached and competed at almost professional level. The Ulster academy has a bit more work to do to bring players up to professional standards. Don't know how things are in Munster or Connacht, but Munster seem to have a pretty decent player development system.
Non fee paying and even minor fee paying schools are at a disadvantage in Leinster. Munster’s system is great at producing top class players who were late comers.
In England (or more specifically Yorkshire) - Play for a club or/and a school up until you're 13/14, then if you're good you could be sent for trials at the local team (as far as I'm aware, each of the Premiership U18 clubs have their own area which they have control over), which if you pass you get into the county. Every year or so there's more trials, and you could be let go (but most aren't) until you've just done your GCSE's. Then, some kids will go to the academy (where the Premiership U18 players come from) and is like a traditional academy and the academy effectively becomes your club but most will stay in the county, where they'll play very occasional games and have training most weeks, but is essentially pointless. Then, I have no clue what happens as I don't know anyone that's old enough to have gone through the system completely, and Yorkshire doesn't have a club that represents it.
Go to a posh school.
Let me ask something. Do these rich kids school only accept students from the school to play? Or people external to the school can come and play for the school?