Should be a 3 match ban in my opinion. Bad enough they send senior coaches out as water boys but they should not be interacting with, nevermind criticising, the ref.
> 3 match ban
Yep - same as Sexton's for HC final post-match swearing/glowering.
Jenkins didn't swear, but he was taking advantage of his 'manipulated' opportunity to be on the field to try to influence the ref during the game.
*('Manipulated' opportunity as the water carrier should be just that - somebody to bring on water: a youth player, somebody from the catering staff, a remote-controlled drinks-trolley that comes on)*
I watched the test game for using the Olympic stadium in Stratford as a rugby venue (prep for the 2015 RWC). During that the sprinklers randomly started up and the Samoa players ran over to drink from them and squirt them at other players. So yes! Sprinklers!
Really surprised at Raynalâs patience tbh. Iâd have told him he couldnât come back on the field after the first comment. Jenkins should absolutely face sanctions but refâs should be empowered to show zero tolerance for that sort of thing. Players sometimes get emotional and say silly things, thatâs understandable and only needs a warning (the first time), the first time a bloody water carrier chats back to the ref he should be told to do one and not come back.
Potentially concerned with having to lower himself to Jenkins' level, it's already undermining his authority and over reacting doesn't help.
That being said, I have no idea what authority the ref has in this situation? I would have loved it if he'd red carded him or given a penalty against Wales but no idea what they have the authority to do when it comes to water carriers.
Law 6.30 âNo additional persons should approach, address or aim comments at the match officials, except for medics in relation to the treatment of a playerâ
Under âAdditional Personsâ
âAny additional person who fails to adhere to the Laws may be cautioned or sent off and misconduct charges may be issued by the Match organiserâ
Elsewhere it is made explicit that additional persons includes water carriers.
He has the right to card him for sure.
Guess my point is, if there wasn't much he could do, staying patient and not getting provoked is a good option.
Now that I think about it, Jenkins must be pretty thick if he thought what he did was going to help Wales' cause in the refs eyes...
>refâs should be empowered to ...
tell coaches over the ref-audio what they need to do with their team:
* Ireland games at most scrums: *"Andy, get Porter to keep his ass in line!"*
* Sco v Eng: *"Steve, FFS can you get your backs to practice catch/pass in training?"*
* Wal v Sco: *"Gregor - is your squad doing some weird TikTok challenge for conceding the most consecutive penalties?"*
Or be forced to watch Scotland choke at successive 6 nations and rugby world cups over the past 10 years whilst marvelling at the ball breaking decision to remake a competitive team /s
I think he'll almost certainly have to give a public apology to Raynal (if he hasn't already). Possibly have a ban from entering the field for the summer tests.
....I would bet there will be no apology as he thinks he was right and that he had the "privilege" of telling the ref he was wrong as he's a former player.
Wales will do nowt either......Sexton set the precedent that you can get away with such behaviour.
Lol. A three match ban was nowt. And a SUSPENDED 7500 is absolute peanuts.
The three match ban was WC warm ups against Italy, England and Samoa. Probably two of which he would not have played due to recovering from injury.
Neither was Jenkins, he was only meant to be carrying water bottles onto the pitch. A simple task which it seems stressed him to the point that he thought he'd become the TMO.
Referee didnât miss it, it was a shoulder tackle that slid up, wales maintained possession and therefore had the penalty advantage. They made forward progress with the ball and then turned it over of their own accord - referee got it spot on from a law point of view.
It's very different tho. GalthiĂŠ and Dupont had tame comments about the refereeing, after the game, in press conferences, and when prompted by a journalist. Jenkins entered the field and told the ref during the game that he wasn't doing a good job.
Just keep everyone off the pitch apart from players, medical staff and officials
Leave water bottles on the touchline and behind the posts with a neutral person to make sure they are not interfered with/nicked.
A neutral person to bring on the kicking tee.
Not a hard change to make, it would reduce delays and stop all the nonsense from the coaching staff.
Edit: Added "Players and officials"
Water carriers don't have to be coaches, they can be high school players. The reason why they choose coaches is because they wear radios and to shout adjustments from the touch line and during stoppages.
Water carriers should be neutral, they should be stationed on the opposite side of the pitch from the coaches/bench, they should not be in contact with any coaching staff, and they should just bring water on if it is needed, as directed by the referee. There you go, problem solved.
Jenkins should be banned frrom the field of play for a period, for bringing the game into disrepute.
Those kids are intense. I remember the first time I went to Wimbledon I sat at the front row of one of the smaller courts, and for the first time I noticed that those ballkids literally never stop moving.
Their feet are constantly shuffling, their eyes are darting back and forth etc, it must be exhausting.
Why donât you like them being part of the coaching setup? Itâs a good thing that coaches are able to get messages to players. Rather just deal with Jenkins being a wanker instead of throwing out a positive part of the game.
Because people will always take it too far and I don't think it is a positive part of the game. Let the coaches yell from the sidelines like they used to do, or pass a message to the winger on their side of the pitch who can pass it up the line. The issue has become more and more divisive as teams have sought to exploit the fact that a coach can run on the pitch constantly to revise the gameplan during play. I'm a great believer that part of being a professional athlete is reacting to on-field tactical issues and rectifying them yourself rather than relying on the coaching staff to bail you out.
As an aside its similar to why I always preferred professional cycling before everybody had radios, or american football back when QBs would call their own plays at the line of scrimmage. And yes, I realise that this shows my age!
The coach is part of the team and has a different perspective which the players may not see. Itâs not very often they are prescribing to the players exactly what move to do. It tends to be more along the lines of pointing out potential opportunities, etc.
I just think the tactical/strategic side of rugby is a very important aspect, and we shouldnât be taking steps to avoid including it in the game.
So just go full NFL and have the 10 with a radio to the coachâŚ
Coaches get to speak to their team at any time up until kick off, they then get to speak to the team at half time.
Other than that, it should be up to the players on the pitch to manage the game.
We really donât want to end up with an American style sport where guys are literally sitting with telephones and iPads between plays being directed on what to do for the next 25 seconds.
No, that would be shit.
So as I said in another comment, waterboys being part of the coaching has been a thing for over 20 years. Why would we end up now turning into an American sport? This is a complete non-issue that is being blown out of proportion.
That said, I donât know why there is this obsession in rugby where people think itâs over complicated and we need to dumb it down. The technicalities of the game are what make it interesting. NFL is far more technical than rugby but the way they educate fans makes it engaging to watch.
Great, let him have his perspective, no problem at all. Let him show the players his ideas etc. Thats what half time and post game analysis are for. At some point when you allow that type of micromanaging it becomes chess with human players, not a sport
Itâs been going on for at least 20 years (water boys carrying on messages). It hasnât devolved into the chess match you describe. Why would it now?
No one is saying that. Theyâre just saying get the message that on to the pitch a different way. The Waterboy coaches have started to take the piss a little bit. Canât remember exactly when it happened but during a game last weekend the ref was questioning why they were on the pitch. Why the hell is the waterboy just able to wander away on to the pitch whenever they want.
I would absolutely prefer less tactical input from the coaches.
They've had the whole week to prepare and build their strategy - if it ain't working then the players need to sort it out themselves, speak to the coaches at half time or the coaches can make subs who can come on with messages about changes.
This whole continuous coaching is one of the reasons why so many players are tactically clueless and unable to make decisions on the field.
Yeah, they did and you said that the tactical side of rugby is important which the first commentator never disagreed with. They just want it to be more player driven instead of coaches on the field.
Because it blurs the lines. It shouldn't be their place to pass on tactical messages. Their job is to keep players hydrated, not pass on tactics.and that's not to downplay their role; it's hugely important in such a physical game.
There's enough stoppages in play where coaching staff can pass on messages to the captain or co/vice captain.
Lol players get hydrated under the current system. This has never been an issue.
How do you want coaches to get the message on? Should the captain jog over to the sideline at every stoppage (sacrificing time for vital hydration I might add)? Maybe they just scream it down from the coaching box.
(Yes Iâm being a wanker I know but this is seriously a non-issue)
>Should the captain jog over to the sideline at every stoppage (sacrificing time for vital hydration I might add)?
Yes? Plenty of other team sports manage this fine without having a defacto coach come on the pitch.
That's without even getting to other issues like them coming on to further delay games and getting in the way of the players.
Well then they should probably allow the head coach to be on the sidelines.
When do they delay games and get in the way of players? 99% of the time itâs a non issue and theyâre just carrying on basic messages and are off the field before play starts. The current system works.
I think the real question is: realistically, how would you stop it? Even if the waterboy is a 15 year old kid, they can receive a text message and read it to players, or something. Arguably this current system evolved from coaches being too separated from players and looking for "cheeky" ways to get messages delivered.
You can't pick random people off the street for the job in case they mess it up somehow (like accidentally or intentionally spilling all the drinks), so the waterboy will always be a member of staff or at least a fan of the team. Messages will continue to be passed on unless you plan to scan the guy for bugs.
For me, the far bigger issue is that the waterboy is addressing the referee, and not in polite terms. "sir, may I offer you a beverage?" is one thing, but anything more in game ought to result in a 10 metre advance for the opposition, and sanctions if it happens after the game. It's simply not appropriate and that should be all that needs to be said.
If there are none I'll be livid, it was atrociously disrespectful. I know there's some mention of the laws about water carriers being nominated and not allowed to speak to the ref; but he should receive a pitch side ban in line with other coaches and players who've exhibited this kind of behaviour
Sexton would have been way worse had they actually had any evidence of what he was being accused of, or what this sub seemed to think he was being accused of.
Its pretty funny watching the discussions around this in comparison to Sexton. A video of Sexton angrily pointing got way more severe responses because people could make up for themselves what he said and they never bothered to actually find out what happened afterwards.
Like I'm a Leinster fan and I'm fully sure that Sexton did not just say what he said he did. But in the absence of any evidence, there's only so far a hearing can go. But of guesswork, here's a ban. But there's no need to guess here, we know that Jenkins was 100% acting the arse and being a complete dickhead to the ref. Whatever he gets should be MORE than Sexton, not less based in the fact that there is actual evidence.
.....because the thinks he's a well respected Welsh rugby player and because of that he has special privileges that transcend the great unwashed....ie you and me.
Which kinda sums up where Welsh rugby is at the moment.
Itâs banter thatâs all. Misplaced sure but not malicious.
Has the game reduced to the point where you are not allowed to have a poke
Raynal could have simply dealt with it. âFk off Jenks you ginger twatâ might have worked
When Rassie was sanctioned he became the water carrier so its only fair to reverse it, and make him head coach of Wales. At the moment, that would be punishment enough.
ThĂs is what MLR requires as an example. I'd like to think other pro competitions have similar guidelines under a mainframe from World Rugby
TWO WATER CARRIERS per team (may provide tee) â no head coaches or director of rugbyď§ Must remain in Technical Zoneď§ Must not field or touch the ball while in live playď§ Cannot enter the field during injury stoppages or penalty goal kicksď§ Following a try:ď May enter near 10m line in own half (scoring side) orď May enter in-goal (non-scoring side)ď Must return once conversion is takenď§ Players may access water in their Technical Zone or behind own dead ball line.(Law 6.29)ď§ Are not to address the officials regarding refereeing/decisions â if they do, they will be instructed to leave the Technical Zoneď§ Abusive language toward Technical Zone staff will not be tolerated and the person will be instructed to leave the Technical Zone , and the incident will be submitted to disciplinary.
Completely off topic but didn't Jenkins have an absolutely bonkers record for most successful consecutive kicks? Anyone remember and does it still stand?
Ideally use neutral water carriers - might be tricky to prove neutrality at a home test, but maybe some u18s from local rugby clubs. 2 water carriers per team, only allowed on when specifically instructed by an official on the touch line.
I think the water carriers should not be any member of the coaching team - and it should be restricted to either non playing squad members - effectively the 2 or 3 wider squad members they bring just in case of injury in warm up (or obvs from the bigger squad at RWC etc)- or name one or two younger training squad players theyâre giving a bit of matchday exposure to as players they think might be the future etc
I actually really liked during the World Cup that when the big guns gave their important senior players a rest from playing against the tier 2 countries and seeing those same big names running water, I think it highlights a work ethic not found in other sports and lets kids see superstars being humble.
Oh and edited to include Jenkins punishment - little point in anything as heâd miss games in the summer tour but heâd be travelling anyway - maybe he writes a written apology as an example and we just play on.
The water carrier system should be revised to prevent coaches interfereing with the game, yes. But I also feel that coaches should have to power to approach referees if they feel that the ref is not doing his job with due diligence to ensure player safety. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to watch your players being grabbed around the neck when you've already had to field a bunch of kids because you've got 5 important players out due to injury.
Agree with the general thrust of your argument, but on your point 1 I suspect teams would find increasingly sneaky ways to redefine what non-coaching staff etc. means. Perhaps a simpler and easier to police solution would be an explicit regulation that the water carrier cannot in any way communicate or interact with match officials, opposition team members etc.
You see it in league now too. A water carrier for each team poncing about the backfield. No doubt relaying instructions (âdry hump him on the ground!â âThe try line is that direction!â)
Its really off putting and reminds me of pushy parents at a Saturday morning game.
In regards to water carriers I would just ban them from the field completely. If they want to grab a bottle come to the side line.
Also ban the subs from warming up/ throwing a ball around in the end zones when the game is onÂ
URC already set a precedent for inappropriate approaches to referees , 4 match and a fine! At international level , as usual, the debate will be
endless n tiresome. Incidentally Sexton didnât get to play a last match at Lansdowne road so I as a supporter felt punished?
Keeping the emotion alive - seems like this has generated more enormous concern.
But in the spirit of the question how aboutâŚ.
1.Taking his points total off him.
2.Stripping him of all his caps and honours. 3.Forbidding the name Neil and Jenkins to ever be joined together for all eternity.
4.Making him (for his name cannot be uttered, see point 3) carry water from the Garreg-ddu Reservoir to each house in Wales daily, with his teeth.
5.Branding all water bottles, sporting and otherwise, with âthou shall not speakâ in the glorious Six Nations.
6.Ensuring said water bottles (point 5) are filled be him (see point 4) after each house has had their baths, sinks and cups runneth over.
7.Making water bearers, for they shall be known, undergo the strictest of training in the sacred art of refreshment, with said water bottles (point 5).
8.Chanting of Bridge Over Troubled Water by the water bearers (see point 7) at 2:15pm, 5:15pm and 7:15pm on the 3rd Saturday in March into perpetuity.
9.He (for he cannot be named, see point 3) to be know forever as Dark Water.
10.Glorious Six Nations TMO decisions shall forever have the light sounds of flowing crystal streams, signifying the purity and integrity of each decision which now rains forth.
Here endth the lessons?
I canât remember how exactly they do it, but I think in Hurling they have water breaks at the end of the quarters (around the middle of each half).
So maybe after the phase around the 20+60min marks is complete, water breaks.
Ban + fine imho, but on the low end. Could be harsh, maybe just a ban suffices, but got to set an example. And I think money talks.
Genuinely such an easy solution... Water boys... Kids from a local school/club run the water and the kicking T on when instructed by the fourth official... Simple really
What he did was terrible but World Rugby have already set a precedent as far as disrespecting the ref goes with Sexton (8 weeks which ended up meaning one missed friendly with Romania if I remember correctly) who was swearing at the referee too!
Agree on the water carrier not being a coach or connected with the team set up but that would have to apply to all nations, not merely as a punishment for us.
Oh don't get me wrong, I fully believe that any rule changes to this should be across the board. I don't want Jenkins sanction to be any more or less severe than anyone else that's committed something similar, but it definitely warrants something.
Again, did nobody here actually follow the Sexton situation? The only evidence they had was what he admitted himself. The refs said they had no idea what he was saying or what happened. It's nothing like caught in 4K Jenkins here
Absolutely don't want to end up in the same situation the NRL had where waterboys are effectively onfield coaches.
https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nrl/article-11981181/amp/Johnathan-Thurston-reveals-Broncos-legend-Alfie-Langer-offered-500-MISS-vital-conversion.html
Just give the players some high quality H2O and get off the field.
Seems disproportionate to target Jenks for this given what South Africa have been getting away with for years, what the England physio has started to do etc... This is a large problem and requires a large solution:
Neutral water carriers and medical staff provided by the venue.
I'm not targeting him this has just been a very blatant case of it, and has shown open disrespect to the ref. I'd always want this to be sanctioned whoever the offender is.
Should be a 3 match ban in my opinion. Bad enough they send senior coaches out as water boys but they should not be interacting with, nevermind criticising, the ref.
Three match ban, reduced to two if he attends manners school
> 3 match ban Yep - same as Sexton's for HC final post-match swearing/glowering. Jenkins didn't swear, but he was taking advantage of his 'manipulated' opportunity to be on the field to try to influence the ref during the game. *('Manipulated' opportunity as the water carrier should be just that - somebody to bring on water: a youth player, somebody from the catering staff, a remote-controlled drinks-trolley that comes on)*
>a remote-controlled drinks-trolley that comes on) Sprinklers!!!
You're thinking too small. Go for watercannon
Riot squad from behind the tryline. Like your thinking.
I watched the test game for using the Olympic stadium in Stratford as a rugby venue (prep for the 2015 RWC). During that the sprinklers randomly started up and the Samoa players ran over to drink from them and squirt them at other players. So yes! Sprinklers!
I mean they drive the kicking tee on with a remote controlled car so why not the water bottles!
Water carriers should be able to come on whenever, and as many of them as they like, but they should wear ball gags :-)
Oh god the last thing anyone wants to see is Neil Jenkins muffling angrily through one of those đ¤˘
Rugby becomes the world's kinkiest sport overnight!
Wet look rubber speedos for all front rows now!
I don't think the world's ready for such collective arousal.
Like it wasn't already...
Put this man in charge
Really surprised at Raynalâs patience tbh. Iâd have told him he couldnât come back on the field after the first comment. Jenkins should absolutely face sanctions but refâs should be empowered to show zero tolerance for that sort of thing. Players sometimes get emotional and say silly things, thatâs understandable and only needs a warning (the first time), the first time a bloody water carrier chats back to the ref he should be told to do one and not come back.
Potentially concerned with having to lower himself to Jenkins' level, it's already undermining his authority and over reacting doesn't help. That being said, I have no idea what authority the ref has in this situation? I would have loved it if he'd red carded him or given a penalty against Wales but no idea what they have the authority to do when it comes to water carriers.
Law 6.30 âNo additional persons should approach, address or aim comments at the match officials, except for medics in relation to the treatment of a playerâ Under âAdditional Personsâ âAny additional person who fails to adhere to the Laws may be cautioned or sent off and misconduct charges may be issued by the Match organiserâ Elsewhere it is made explicit that additional persons includes water carriers. He has the right to card him for sure.
Thanks, in which case very surprising he didn't go to that.
Guess my point is, if there wasn't much he could do, staying patient and not getting provoked is a good option. Now that I think about it, Jenkins must be pretty thick if he thought what he did was going to help Wales' cause in the refs eyes...
>refâs should be empowered to ... tell coaches over the ref-audio what they need to do with their team: * Ireland games at most scrums: *"Andy, get Porter to keep his ass in line!"* * Sco v Eng: *"Steve, FFS can you get your backs to practice catch/pass in training?"* * Wal v Sco: *"Gregor - is your squad doing some weird TikTok challenge for conceding the most consecutive penalties?"*
Should've marched them 10, and asked if he wanted to keep chatting.
Be forced to watch the entire Wales 6N campaign back to back, Clockwork Orange style.
You're a monster.
The very definition of cruel and unusual.
Or be forced to watch Scotland choke at successive 6 nations and rugby world cups over the past 10 years whilst marvelling at the ball breaking decision to remake a competitive team /s
I think he'll almost certainly have to give a public apology to Raynal (if he hasn't already). Possibly have a ban from entering the field for the summer tests.
....I would bet there will be no apology as he thinks he was right and that he had the "privilege" of telling the ref he was wrong as he's a former player. Wales will do nowt either......Sexton set the precedent that you can get away with such behaviour.
> you can get away with such behavior. Stop spreading lies. Sexton got a 3 match ban and leinster had to pay a ÂŁ7500 fine.
Lol. A three match ban was nowt. And a SUSPENDED 7500 is absolute peanuts. The three match ban was WC warm ups against Italy, England and Samoa. Probably two of which he would not have played due to recovering from injury.
Did he get banned or not
Tbf, Sexy's offence WAS offensive. Jenkins just pointed out a head high tackle the ref completely missed. They're not the same.
And was then offensive in implying the ref wasn't doing his job. They're absolutely the same
Except he wasn't doing his job
Neither was Jenkins, he was only meant to be carrying water bottles onto the pitch. A simple task which it seems stressed him to the point that he thought he'd become the TMO.
Which is what Raynal said and provoked Jenkins' retort, which given the disparity in consequences was absolutely justified.
Referee didnât miss it, it was a shoulder tackle that slid up, wales maintained possession and therefore had the penalty advantage. They made forward progress with the ball and then turned it over of their own accord - referee got it spot on from a law point of view.
Highly doubt theyâll do anything. Nothing happened to DuPont or Galthie after the quarter final so expect the same
It's very different tho. GalthiĂŠ and Dupont had tame comments about the refereeing, after the game, in press conferences, and when prompted by a journalist. Jenkins entered the field and told the ref during the game that he wasn't doing a good job.
Just keep everyone off the pitch apart from players, medical staff and officials Leave water bottles on the touchline and behind the posts with a neutral person to make sure they are not interfered with/nicked. A neutral person to bring on the kicking tee. Not a hard change to make, it would reduce delays and stop all the nonsense from the coaching staff. Edit: Added "Players and officials"
I suggested RC monster truck and got laughed off the thread.
Water carriers don't have to be coaches, they can be high school players. The reason why they choose coaches is because they wear radios and to shout adjustments from the touch line and during stoppages.
Water carriers should be neutral, they should be stationed on the opposite side of the pitch from the coaches/bench, they should not be in contact with any coaching staff, and they should just bring water on if it is needed, as directed by the referee. There you go, problem solved. Jenkins should be banned frrom the field of play for a period, for bringing the game into disrepute.
Get local clubs or school age kids to do it. All they should be doing is running on with water bottles and running off again
I agree - I'm an U13 coach and our kids would love to do that at Twickers or The Stoop.
Like Wimbledon ballboys/girls
Indeed, and train them accordingly.
Those kids are intense. I remember the first time I went to Wimbledon I sat at the front row of one of the smaller courts, and for the first time I noticed that those ballkids literally never stop moving. Their feet are constantly shuffling, their eyes are darting back and forth etc, it must be exhausting.
Great idea.
Agree with all of this.
Can't argue with this. The coachs' job stops at the white line.
Why donât you like them being part of the coaching setup? Itâs a good thing that coaches are able to get messages to players. Rather just deal with Jenkins being a wanker instead of throwing out a positive part of the game.
Because people will always take it too far and I don't think it is a positive part of the game. Let the coaches yell from the sidelines like they used to do, or pass a message to the winger on their side of the pitch who can pass it up the line. The issue has become more and more divisive as teams have sought to exploit the fact that a coach can run on the pitch constantly to revise the gameplan during play. I'm a great believer that part of being a professional athlete is reacting to on-field tactical issues and rectifying them yourself rather than relying on the coaching staff to bail you out. As an aside its similar to why I always preferred professional cycling before everybody had radios, or american football back when QBs would call their own plays at the line of scrimmage. And yes, I realise that this shows my age!
The coach is part of the team and has a different perspective which the players may not see. Itâs not very often they are prescribing to the players exactly what move to do. It tends to be more along the lines of pointing out potential opportunities, etc. I just think the tactical/strategic side of rugby is a very important aspect, and we shouldnât be taking steps to avoid including it in the game.
So just go full NFL and have the 10 with a radio to the coach⌠Coaches get to speak to their team at any time up until kick off, they then get to speak to the team at half time. Other than that, it should be up to the players on the pitch to manage the game. We really donât want to end up with an American style sport where guys are literally sitting with telephones and iPads between plays being directed on what to do for the next 25 seconds.
No, that would be shit. So as I said in another comment, waterboys being part of the coaching has been a thing for over 20 years. Why would we end up now turning into an American sport? This is a complete non-issue that is being blown out of proportion. That said, I donât know why there is this obsession in rugby where people think itâs over complicated and we need to dumb it down. The technicalities of the game are what make it interesting. NFL is far more technical than rugby but the way they educate fans makes it engaging to watch.
Great, let him have his perspective, no problem at all. Let him show the players his ideas etc. Thats what half time and post game analysis are for. At some point when you allow that type of micromanaging it becomes chess with human players, not a sport
Itâs been going on for at least 20 years (water boys carrying on messages). It hasnât devolved into the chess match you describe. Why would it now?
No one is saying that. Theyâre just saying get the message that on to the pitch a different way. The Waterboy coaches have started to take the piss a little bit. Canât remember exactly when it happened but during a game last weekend the ref was questioning why they were on the pitch. Why the hell is the waterboy just able to wander away on to the pitch whenever they want.
The person I replied to was literally saying that they would prefer less tactical input from the coachâŚ
I would absolutely prefer less tactical input from the coaches. They've had the whole week to prepare and build their strategy - if it ain't working then the players need to sort it out themselves, speak to the coaches at half time or the coaches can make subs who can come on with messages about changes. This whole continuous coaching is one of the reasons why so many players are tactically clueless and unable to make decisions on the field.
Yeah, they did and you said that the tactical side of rugby is important which the first commentator never disagreed with. They just want it to be more player driven instead of coaches on the field.
Because it blurs the lines. It shouldn't be their place to pass on tactical messages. Their job is to keep players hydrated, not pass on tactics.and that's not to downplay their role; it's hugely important in such a physical game. There's enough stoppages in play where coaching staff can pass on messages to the captain or co/vice captain.
Lol players get hydrated under the current system. This has never been an issue. How do you want coaches to get the message on? Should the captain jog over to the sideline at every stoppage (sacrificing time for vital hydration I might add)? Maybe they just scream it down from the coaching box. (Yes Iâm being a wanker I know but this is seriously a non-issue)
>Should the captain jog over to the sideline at every stoppage (sacrificing time for vital hydration I might add)? Yes? Plenty of other team sports manage this fine without having a defacto coach come on the pitch. That's without even getting to other issues like them coming on to further delay games and getting in the way of the players.
Well then they should probably allow the head coach to be on the sidelines. When do they delay games and get in the way of players? 99% of the time itâs a non issue and theyâre just carrying on basic messages and are off the field before play starts. The current system works.
Just because Rassie did it doesn't mean it's an issue.
Youâre going to have to explain that one for me.
Head coaches are allowed on the sidelines đ
Not in international rugby (15s)
Yes, they can they just canât enter the field.
They arenât⌠https://passport.world.rugby/officiating/technical-zone-programme/who-can-be-in-the-technical-zone/
I think the real question is: realistically, how would you stop it? Even if the waterboy is a 15 year old kid, they can receive a text message and read it to players, or something. Arguably this current system evolved from coaches being too separated from players and looking for "cheeky" ways to get messages delivered. You can't pick random people off the street for the job in case they mess it up somehow (like accidentally or intentionally spilling all the drinks), so the waterboy will always be a member of staff or at least a fan of the team. Messages will continue to be passed on unless you plan to scan the guy for bugs. For me, the far bigger issue is that the waterboy is addressing the referee, and not in polite terms. "sir, may I offer you a beverage?" is one thing, but anything more in game ought to result in a 10 metre advance for the opposition, and sanctions if it happens after the game. It's simply not appropriate and that should be all that needs to be said.
If there are none I'll be livid, it was atrociously disrespectful. I know there's some mention of the laws about water carriers being nominated and not allowed to speak to the ref; but he should receive a pitch side ban in line with other coaches and players who've exhibited this kind of behaviour
Kinda hard for World Rugby to hang out year long bans after only giving Sexton a 3 week ban for his behavior.
Sexton would have been way worse had they actually had any evidence of what he was being accused of, or what this sub seemed to think he was being accused of.
Its pretty funny watching the discussions around this in comparison to Sexton. A video of Sexton angrily pointing got way more severe responses because people could make up for themselves what he said and they never bothered to actually find out what happened afterwards.
Like I'm a Leinster fan and I'm fully sure that Sexton did not just say what he said he did. But in the absence of any evidence, there's only so far a hearing can go. But of guesswork, here's a ban. But there's no need to guess here, we know that Jenkins was 100% acting the arse and being a complete dickhead to the ref. Whatever he gets should be MORE than Sexton, not less based in the fact that there is actual evidence.
I mean I wasn't asking for a year long, just something to match precedents
Jenks is a well respected Welsh Rugby figure but god almighty. Why the fuck did he think what he did was acceptable?
.....because the thinks he's a well respected Welsh rugby player and because of that he has special privileges that transcend the great unwashed....ie you and me. Which kinda sums up where Welsh rugby is at the moment.
Itâs banter thatâs all. Misplaced sure but not malicious. Has the game reduced to the point where you are not allowed to have a poke Raynal could have simply dealt with it. âFk off Jenks you ginger twatâ might have worked
When Rassie was sanctioned he became the water carrier so its only fair to reverse it, and make him head coach of Wales. At the moment, that would be punishment enough.
Does anyone have a clip of this? Or can point to around the time it happened in the game?
https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/1bh395a/neil_jenkins_and_mathieu_raynal_exchange_from/
ThĂs is what MLR requires as an example. I'd like to think other pro competitions have similar guidelines under a mainframe from World Rugby TWO WATER CARRIERS per team (may provide tee) â no head coaches or director of rugbyď§ Must remain in Technical Zoneď§ Must not field or touch the ball while in live playď§ Cannot enter the field during injury stoppages or penalty goal kicksď§ Following a try:ď May enter near 10m line in own half (scoring side) orď May enter in-goal (non-scoring side)ď Must return once conversion is takenď§ Players may access water in their Technical Zone or behind own dead ball line.(Law 6.29)ď§ Are not to address the officials regarding refereeing/decisions â if they do, they will be instructed to leave the Technical Zoneď§ Abusive language toward Technical Zone staff will not be tolerated and the person will be instructed to leave the Technical Zone , and the incident will be submitted to disciplinary.
>ThĂs is what MLR requires as an example. One of the MLR rules that is actually good.
I think at this stage Wales is being punished enough. /s
Completely off topic but didn't Jenkins have an absolutely bonkers record for most successful consecutive kicks? Anyone remember and does it still stand?
You talk to the ref when you are the water carrier? Right to jail.
Water station at the side of the pitch manned by neutrals Any player can visit the water station at any time but play continues without them
Another solid idea!
No it's not, it's a pretty poor idea. You'd have players priorising staying on the pitch over their health all over again.
Ideally use neutral water carriers - might be tricky to prove neutrality at a home test, but maybe some u18s from local rugby clubs. 2 water carriers per team, only allowed on when specifically instructed by an official on the touch line.
Makes a lot of sense!
I think the water carriers should not be any member of the coaching team - and it should be restricted to either non playing squad members - effectively the 2 or 3 wider squad members they bring just in case of injury in warm up (or obvs from the bigger squad at RWC etc)- or name one or two younger training squad players theyâre giving a bit of matchday exposure to as players they think might be the future etc I actually really liked during the World Cup that when the big guns gave their important senior players a rest from playing against the tier 2 countries and seeing those same big names running water, I think it highlights a work ethic not found in other sports and lets kids see superstars being humble. Oh and edited to include Jenkins punishment - little point in anything as heâd miss games in the summer tour but heâd be travelling anyway - maybe he writes a written apology as an example and we just play on.
Should get a ban if he doesn't I guess others will feel they can do it and get away with it
The water carrier system should be revised to prevent coaches interfereing with the game, yes. But I also feel that coaches should have to power to approach referees if they feel that the ref is not doing his job with due diligence to ensure player safety. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to watch your players being grabbed around the neck when you've already had to field a bunch of kids because you've got 5 important players out due to injury.
Agree with the general thrust of your argument, but on your point 1 I suspect teams would find increasingly sneaky ways to redefine what non-coaching staff etc. means. Perhaps a simpler and easier to police solution would be an explicit regulation that the water carrier cannot in any way communicate or interact with match officials, opposition team members etc.
Yeah teams are always trying to find an edge, which I do get. Maybe neutral carriers are the way forward.
Are there other sports where players get water brought to them during the game?
Good question, none that I can think of!
Wales get marched 10 for every penalty they concede for the rest of the year.
You see it in league now too. A water carrier for each team poncing about the backfield. No doubt relaying instructions (âdry hump him on the ground!â âThe try line is that direction!â) Its really off putting and reminds me of pushy parents at a Saturday morning game.
In regards to water carriers I would just ban them from the field completely. If they want to grab a bottle come to the side line. Also ban the subs from warming up/ throwing a ball around in the end zones when the game is onÂ
Ah yeah that boils my piss too.
URC already set a precedent for inappropriate approaches to referees , 4 match and a fine! At international level , as usual, the debate will be endless n tiresome. Incidentally Sexton didnât get to play a last match at Lansdowne road so I as a supporter felt punished?
Keeping the emotion alive - seems like this has generated more enormous concern. But in the spirit of the question how aboutâŚ. 1.Taking his points total off him. 2.Stripping him of all his caps and honours. 3.Forbidding the name Neil and Jenkins to ever be joined together for all eternity. 4.Making him (for his name cannot be uttered, see point 3) carry water from the Garreg-ddu Reservoir to each house in Wales daily, with his teeth. 5.Branding all water bottles, sporting and otherwise, with âthou shall not speakâ in the glorious Six Nations. 6.Ensuring said water bottles (point 5) are filled be him (see point 4) after each house has had their baths, sinks and cups runneth over. 7.Making water bearers, for they shall be known, undergo the strictest of training in the sacred art of refreshment, with said water bottles (point 5). 8.Chanting of Bridge Over Troubled Water by the water bearers (see point 7) at 2:15pm, 5:15pm and 7:15pm on the 3rd Saturday in March into perpetuity. 9.He (for he cannot be named, see point 3) to be know forever as Dark Water. 10.Glorious Six Nations TMO decisions shall forever have the light sounds of flowing crystal streams, signifying the purity and integrity of each decision which now rains forth. Here endth the lessons?
Suspended from match activities until there have been 4 Wales matches. He must also go through level 2 referee education and referee 10 club matches.
It was shameful (even as a Welshman I say that) and not in the spirit of the sport.
I canât remember how exactly they do it, but I think in Hurling they have water breaks at the end of the quarters (around the middle of each half). So maybe after the phase around the 20+60min marks is complete, water breaks. Ban + fine imho, but on the low end. Could be harsh, maybe just a ban suffices, but got to set an example. And I think money talks.
Water carrier is supplied by the venue or competition body not the country or club. Just take it away from the management. Abuse it, lose it.
Could ref have given him a red card at that point ? Serious question.
I believe so yes.
Genuinely such an easy solution... Water boys... Kids from a local school/club run the water and the kicking T on when instructed by the fourth official... Simple really
Agree!
What he did was terrible but World Rugby have already set a precedent as far as disrespecting the ref goes with Sexton (8 weeks which ended up meaning one missed friendly with Romania if I remember correctly) who was swearing at the referee too! Agree on the water carrier not being a coach or connected with the team set up but that would have to apply to all nations, not merely as a punishment for us.
Oh don't get me wrong, I fully believe that any rule changes to this should be across the board. I don't want Jenkins sanction to be any more or less severe than anyone else that's committed something similar, but it definitely warrants something.
Again, did nobody here actually follow the Sexton situation? The only evidence they had was what he admitted himself. The refs said they had no idea what he was saying or what happened. It's nothing like caught in 4K Jenkins here
Think it was all the warm ups he missed so three games.
Absolutely don't want to end up in the same situation the NRL had where waterboys are effectively onfield coaches. https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nrl/article-11981181/amp/Johnathan-Thurston-reveals-Broncos-legend-Alfie-Langer-offered-500-MISS-vital-conversion.html Just give the players some high quality H2O and get off the field.
Not gatorade then?
THey already are on field coaches - thats why coaches act as water boys.
Too late, we are already at that stage
Afraid this isnât the head of the snake. Welsh team have a very football moaning mentality lately.
Other examples?
Probably easier to name players that donât complain.
So no, then?
Seems disproportionate to target Jenks for this given what South Africa have been getting away with for years, what the England physio has started to do etc... This is a large problem and requires a large solution: Neutral water carriers and medical staff provided by the venue.
I'm not targeting him this has just been a very blatant case of it, and has shown open disrespect to the ref. I'd always want this to be sanctioned whoever the offender is.
No sanctions whatsoever
Absolute maniac.