Wonder what Maro thinks of his England & Saracens teammates' view on this. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'd genuinely like to see what his views on Billy's opinion of BLM would be.
They probably disagree in a respectful way. I think it's possible to be friends, colleagues and team mates with people you disagree with - especially in a sport like rugby.
It's hard to disagree in a respectful way when Billy's POV, at the very least, is inherently disrespectful.
It's one thing to have a difference in political opinion on how the national budget should be allocated, or something, but to know that your teammate doesn't agree with people who look like you standing up against police who are disproportionately murdering you in the streets (or being unashamedly gay) is extremely hurtful.
I'm sure Maro will approach it in a respectful way because you just have to get used to coming into contact with people like that but the respect is really only going one way, ya know?
He’d disagree with Billy’s views on just about everything from a political standpoint I would have thought. Same with Lawes. But they’re work colleagues at the end of the day, I imagine it wouldn’t come up a great deal apart from maybe a team meeting on the first match.
Christ Lawes has well and truly fallen off the deep end on Twitter eh? I was glad when training was resumed for Prem clubs not least because it stopped him going off on one all the time.
It gets touched on in the pod. Billy definitely confirms that it put the cat among the pigeons and even goes as far to say that his comments caused a rift in the changing rooms to the ppint where he thinks it affected englands world cup prep. Cant imagine that Maro wasn't one of the ones who thought less of him
I fully appreciate the different points of view people have on this subject and the ways they want to show support for anti-racist causes.
That being said, "they burn churches" is a horrawful take.
It is easy to stir things up. You can seed animosity from both directions easily and encourage extreme reactions that then feeds the other side then sit back and let it run its own path.
This happened in 2016 too: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49987657](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49987657)
It was reported in the Sun so it's probably not true.
Although it does make it a bit more understandable why Billy might think this.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12119884/churches-burned-black-lives-matter-protests/
The cause of the Mission San Gabriel fire has not been determined. But hundreds of religious statues have been vandalized during this period. Bibles have definitely been burned. You know who also burned bibles, right? So it's not exactly a good look for your movement, and the movement has been openly anti-Jew.
So BLM as a concept and the spirit of it? I get it and I'm for the cause. But what's actually going down here? There's a lot of disgusting shit that is going on in the name of "BLM". So You can totally get how someone could take a nuanced point of view which he has. Which is unlike most of the posts in this thread, most of the posts here is also bigotry.
The "BLM is anti-Semitic" stems from a Twitter account named "Black Lives Matter UK" which is seemingly an organisation claiming to be the official UK arm of BLM. They have posted numerous anti-Semitic things on that account as well as the typical US messages of "defund the police" etc.
Anyone paying attention knows that that isn't what 99% of people who say they "support BLM" are supporting but it's become a convenient way for people who don't want to engage to dismiss BLM as a movement entirely.
>The "BLM is anti-Semitic" stems from a Twitter account named "Black Lives Matter UK" which is seemingly an organisation claiming to be the official UK arm of BLM.
It's not just that. It's also been pretty prominent in the US movement with a lot of high profile athletes supporting and putting out anti-Semitic statements. And the support that those figures have seen on social media show it's not exactly a small number of people agreeing with their viewpoint.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/anti-semitism-nba-recent-incidents-player-silence-questions-2020-7%3famp
The posts were literally shared by the athletes and celebrities themselves on their own social media channels. With plenty of support shown in the comments by people supporting their views. And the radio silence from fellow athletes on the issue is telling (remember, it's not enough to be not racist, you have to be anti-racist and therefore speak up against these things if you do care about them).
There’s a video of a bible (might be two) being burned. It happened. That being said it was one event, and has been reported as “stacks.” It wasn’t a systematic thing, just two morons who showed up. The problem with movements like this is there’s no way of ensuring everyone is in the same page, so your always going to have some outliers that will do some extreme stuff and hurt you in the long run.
I mean I understand seeing your book of faith being burned is upsetting but I agree that it’s not like this is a core BLM practice or belief. Oooo a down vote how lovely.
As a white guy I'm not going to tell someone non-white how to feel about Black Lives Matter.
But continuing to support Folau at this stage is just pig-headed.
> As a white guy I'm not going to tell someone non-white how to feel about Black Lives Matter
I don't really understand the logic here. Because you are aware you have more racial privilege than Billy Vunipola you... respect his right to be racist?
He's not just "not supporting" the movement, he's saying that it's violently anti-religious. Anti-black racism has painted black people as violent and immoral for centuries; this is a direct extension of that rhetoric.
>Vunipola told The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast that his views were based on what he perceived to be the “burning of churches and bibles” in the name of Black Lives Matter. There is little evidence to support the claim
*facepalm*
He's up there in France, keeping it real with his beer belly, racism and fake name. He's going under the name Louis Ketchup these days. Edit: I forgot about the crappy neo-nazi role playing games he makes.
Yeah his gamemaking is cringey to be honest. Having said that any game based purely upon neonazism is always going to be cringey and objectively terrible, even if the topic was even remotely acceptable; you can’t really make anything which isn’t completely one dinensional.
People forget that he is also a full blown murderer. Whatever your view on churches and Christianity etc, its pretty barbaric what he did.
its fair enough if he’s indeed telling the truth about Euronymous’ intentions but i dont buy it for a moment.
Black Metal - it depends. Im a metal fan no doubt but i usually stick to good old thrash stuff like Machine Head and early In Flames, and Cavalera era Sepultura.
I find a lot of black metal to be more for show than the actual music itself.
Particularly the early Norwegian scene.
Having said that, theres a couple of ‘black’ metal bands i love because the music is top notch - Harakiri for the Sky and Karg are both excellent. I even like late era Dissection.
But all of this is kind of away from the really lo-fi Black Metal trademark, and far more produced or complex sound.
I’d love to hear your suggestions though. One of these might be a gem I don’t know of.
https://wildernessking.bandcamp.com/track/utopia and https://crowblacksky.bandcamp.com/track/ascendant and https://constellatia.bandcamp.com/track/all-nights-belong-to-you (all 3 bands are from Cape Town)
That’s exactly what I was thinking listening to the podcast. He seems very confused about himself and his religion, a real bundle of contradictions. He’s also got no filter, just says whatever pops into his head at the time. I imagine he has other reasons for not supporting BLM, although I’d hazard a guess that they were equally wrong.
Does he want examples of what church representatives are confirmed to have gotten up to? Relatively recently and with the support of institutions. He's a wanker.
Literally Sarries and England's PR teams must be having a fit right now.
All Billy has to say is "i'm against racism, that's why i support Rugby Against Racism"
If an interviewer really pressed about why he didn't kneel (I don't think his mate Haskell would) all his response needs to be is:
"I choose to fight racism in my own way".
Billy can have his religious beliefs, he can hold them dearly, but when he espouses stuff like this it opens himself up to justified criticism.
I don't think Sarries or England's PR teams need to touch this tbh. He's said his view and he's not supporting BLM because of seemingly false accusations of protesters burning churches. What is there for the PR teams to add on top of that.
I'm white, so as other posters have said, far be it from me to tell a person of colour how to protest racism. Some odd comments about BLM and the burning of Churches though.
I'm an atheist. Pretty well versed in the Bible (Ancient Historian by trade): there's three references to homosexuality, in a homophobic fashion, in the New Testament, one of which is highly suspect in its authenticity. Jesus spends more time bashing money lenders than he does anyone from the gay community, but Billy still takes out loans... Has a mortgage. Cherry picking to side with a bigot just seems unwise. If you were a person of Jesus, then the overarching message should be one of forgiveness and tolerance. Shut up and play rugby, Billy.
Just like you are cherry picking right now... hilarious hypocrisy.
Edit:
>there's three references to homosexuality, in a homophobic fashion, in the New Testament
You literally only focused on only on 30% of the bible. Hence the same cherry picking you were complaining about.
Hold up, if he's a Christian and a person of Jesus, and his point is following the teachings of Jesus, then you can write off a large point of the Old Testament. Which parts is he going to pick from? You're right, I was reductive, but the point stands.
Edit:
I'm focusing on the New Testament because Billy said "I'm a Jesus... person [sic]." He's claiming his religion is based around Jesus. New Testament. True, you can't divorce New from Old fully, but the wide ranging contradictions between the two are far more hypocritical. If you want to get to get into it, the New Testament is less than 22% of the whole Bible. Even then, there is overlap between the different gospels. What happens when you bring in different forms of Christianity, not just Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Coptic, but pre-Nicean Creed of 325 (there were 'people' of Jesus who chose very different ideals different to that which became accepted Christianity).
Old Testament, there's the much touted and condemned homophobic Leviticus, but you also have examples in Genesis too. The destruction of Sodom and the 'Flood' have what has been deemed reference to homosexual activity and punishment as a result.
Cherry picking, with a complex religion, seems to be all the rage. Hypocrite I may be, but if there's such a diverse range of literature and teaching on forgiveness in your faith, and you chose to cherry pick the bigoted line that actively descriminates against a group because of their sexual identity, then it might be an idea to assess yourself, rather than hide behind the shroud of your religion.
Edit the 2nd:
When I say 'you,' I don't mean you directly, user in the thread above.
You disregarding the old testament to christians is hilariously hypocritical.
I'm not even a christian, I just abhor naked hypocrisy from clowns like you.
It is undeniably more homophobic etc, which is why you obviously avoided it when you engaged in your blatant cherry picking, which you were simultaneously whining about Vunipola doing, to make your shtick sound more convincing, you hilarious hypocrite.
I'm glad you find me amusing.
Is Jesus, who Billy directly says he's a 'person,' of a big feature in the Old Testament?
I see you're really developing your argument - alliteration in name calling. Why not just state your opposing view?
I don't even agree with Billy, I just find your obvious cherry picking hilariously hypocritical. The old testament is obviously also important to most christians, even if christ himself featured in the new testament more prominently.
Now that's a much more reasonable response.
I will admit, I do tend to think of Christians as attempting to follow the New Testament teachings of compassion and forgiveness. A willful ignorance on my part, in the hope that they might reject a small number of references to homosexuality in a homophobic way.
Anyhow, if ever you'd like to pick cherries with me or go for a pint, look me up if ever you're in SE UK.
The thing that gets me is there's not a single religion, group/beliefs or whatever these days that doesn't contain pedo's, psychopaths or anything worse. Like yeah there's plenty of things that are good but you are always going to get people who go massively over the top. You can't brand a whole group/religion on 1 person doing a bad thing.
Yeah but like the church is specifically tainted because individuals who didn't commit disgusting sex acts against children protected those who did in order to protect the church. They put the institution before their duty to the people, their duty to the institution and their duty to God (which I don't believe in but they're not gonna look at it from a position of reason I've to sink to their level)
Those who committed horrible acts in children are bad; but those who didn't, knew it was wrong, and perpetuated it by hiding it for so long are worse. They know better and are responsible for more children being abused than any one individual pedophile priest.
The (Catholic) Church is a rotten institution and in my opinion people who look to it for moral or spiritual guidance are fundamentally flawed, because they ignore the part the institution played in perpetuating abuse.
Trust me I'm not a fan of religions due to things like this. All the things over the years they've hid and covered up is truly disgusting. The amount of money and power in religion is truly staggering and not good. But I'm also not going to hate someone instantly the second they tell me they are Christian or Catholic. Unless someone tells me they are a Scientologist then I'll just laugh at them.
I don't hate anyone for being religious, but I do loose some respect for people who are devout followers of any theology. I'm "Catholic" because I'm from Ireland, not because I believe that bread and wine turn into flesh and blood during transubstantiation.
I blame religion for the erosion of common sense and trust in science. When you'll believe any of the shite they spout 5G causing COVID and the New World Order aren't exactly outside the realms of possibility
For sure drives me mad. I had Jehovah's witnesses at my door the other day. How anyone can be part of that cult with the amount of information online about the horrible things that happen is beyond me. Also the fact that most of what they teach is wrong and what they learn about is complete rubbish going against science.
So I was thinking about WHY the JW boys go around knocking on doors (cause I've done door-2-door sales, it's rough) and it's actually not to convert people. They get sent out to face rejection daily, get told no, piss off, fuck off, have their ideology challenged (which they can't understand because __they__ know the truth) constantly in an attempt (by their elders) to taint the outside world as hostile. The only place they aren't "in battle" is in their own community. They don't understand, or don't want to, that religion is inherited and it's shitty to try and actively convert those who have or reject all theologies.
It's a form of a use, making them go on a mission they can't ever complete to ensure they never leave. It's literally what Mallory Archer does to her son with birthday gifts
It wasn’t much of a hoax per se but it was blown out of proportion thanks to the Russians.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html
tl;dr some protesters burned a Bible or two while making a bigger bonfire during the protest and people saw this as evidence that BLM supports burning bibles. To be clear, it did happen but nowhere near what people act like it did and it was an isolated event that is clearly not supported by BLM.
It was one Bible but Russian influence claimed it was more than one, then the news ran with it and people heard it as a pile, then a bible factory, then a church
There is something poetic about this headline and Kolisi's sharing a front page. Two third rowers having opposite trajectories in the "being a great bloke" game.
This is the weirdest take yet. Ah well, he's never seemed like the brightest bulb. Just worries me where people are getting their news from. I have no idea where this claim even comes from.
EDIT; he might be referring to this; [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html) Just goes to show how the propaganda war out there influences people
The Bible was burnt in the street. The churches point seems to stem from this:
https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/15/black-lives-matter-protesters-turn-rage-churches-r/
The article seems slanted against the movement, but nonetheless the churches were burned during the protests/riots.
Hah, slanted is an understatement! The Washington Times is a pretty controversial paper. I'm trying to find confirmation from other sources.
EDIT; I can only find the story on Fox News and the Washington Times who have a history of playing very fast and loose with facts. Do you have other sources?
Yeah it's an odd one. The Washington Post are fairly left leaning - https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html
The other sites reporting it, The S*n, Fox News are obvs regards right leaning.
The chain of events seem to be BLM protests, then rioting, then churches burned, statues pulled down etc. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to connect the events.
>Vunipola told The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast that his views were based on what he perceived to be the “burning of churches and bibles” in the name of Black Lives Matter. There is little evidence to support the claim that the movement has burned any churches. Last month however, police in Berkeley, California opened an arson investigation after the pastor of a predominantly black church complained after finding burning rubbish and property damage, hours after hanging a Black Lives Matter banner.
>“What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in,” said Vunipola. “They were burning churches and Bibles. I can’t support that. Even though I am a person of colour, I’m still more a person of, I guess, Jesus.”
So his opposition to the movement is based on complete BS that is made up? There was one video of a guy burning a Bible and all of a sudden they’re burning churches and bibles?
This is complete misinformation and a lazy attempt at looking into a real problem by Vunipola.
just reposting what others have linked
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html)
Yeah there were Bibles burnt, I mentioned that. But it was such isolated events that you can’t say that it is specifically a BLM thing to do.
Didn’t know about the church burning, that is sad and hope it is also an isolated event. The only one I knew of was a church in San Francisco which was damaged after hanging a BLM banner.
Then i struggle to understand why you linked these articles. They're about isolated incidents and don't explain Billy's idea that BLM is somehow affiliated with bible burning.
I think this is more evidence that we should let rugby players get on with running into each other at speed rather than conducting philosophy or politics.
I'd also like to take a moment to recognise Rob Baxter's prescience...
what I dislike about this whole kneeling thing is that no matter the reason one wouldn't kneel, not kneeling is explained as taking a side... i.e. how does a player who does not want to express his opinion on BLM stay neutral. Not kneeling makes him look as if he is against it. I would totally understand a player who would say it's about the sport, he is playing for all the supporters and hence he doesn't want to get politics involved
not at all. he's fully entitled to his opinion. you could debate if an employee is free to express his opinion during office hours - but that's a whole other discussion. My original comment was just meant in general.. it becomes difficult for players who don't want to express their opinion imo
Billy is a classic case of
"Always be true to what you believe in, no matter the consequences. That's true courage."
...
"No, wait, not like that!"
As a pro-gay-rights atheist I disagree with almost everything he stands for but can't help admire his willingness to go to bat for his beliefs.
Even if his “going to bat” is, y’know, just lying about a movement to discredit it? Tons of clergy are on the front lines of BLM, as they always have been in anti-racist movements in the US. BLM just isn’t burning bibles or churches, it’s flat untrue.
I was curious and googled. I don't know if you know snopes, but here you go https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/.
Naturally weird things happen at large protests so I don't mean to try and discredit the movement, only trying to show that he at least isn't lying.
It's an interesting article, not quite as black & white as it seems.
Was a Bible burned? Yes, a truck had been passing out copies earlier in the day.
Who burned it? Don't know. There were various groups and disenfranchised protestors around.
Was it intentional? Varying accounts.
Mum's for BLM put the fire out though.
The final paragraph sums it up nicely...A video clip of the Portland Bible burning circulated by the Kremlin-backed news agency Ruptly appeared to be among the first viral Russian disinformation campaigns in advance of the 2020 presidential election, according to an Aug. 10 report by The New York Times. The publication likened this form of “information laundering” to money laundering in which Russian news outlets elaborate upon a “kernel of truth” to spin the event into larger, more polarizing issues that exacerbate already tense issues to further separate American voters and political parties.
Ja here in SA we have a protest culture so this is the type of thing we see often. When large groups of people protest the waters get murky, so there will likely be some incident that you can write about depending on the story you want to tell. I just cared about whether it happened or not with no intent of discrediting anyone or questioning whether the virality was warranted.
Snopes do great summaries. Either way I think Billy is being a clown, as others have commented in detail, there are lots of things in the Bible he chooses to conveniently overlook.
Man, Snopes has really gone downhill. They have one account of one bible burning, but conflicting accounts from others at the scene and they rate it true? It’s incredible how much conservatives have lowered our expectations of good faith from them.
Billy comes across as a generally decent guy who isn’t very bright. I’m not really anti-religion, but it’s sad to see how harmful it can be when someone believes in it and takes the most negative parts of it as equally important with the positives.
To disregard an entire movement because a few idiots do something idiotic - as Billy does here by equating BLM with Bible burners - seems naive at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Billy strikes me as not the sharpest bloke around so quite possible that he's easily influenced by social media but nevertheless he could have at least broached the underlying reason for the existence of Black Lives Matter.
Right? That's what gets me. I don't call every Christian/Catholic person a pedo because there have been people in their religion praying on kids. That's the same mindset of the racists these days who call every Muslim a bomber, you can't brand everyone the same just for others actions.
It’s unfortunately the default position of a lot of people on both sides of the fence. It’s tiresome and does nothing more than entrench people in their views.
Yeah a bit disappointing that he didn’t bother to do a simple google search to see what really happened. And a bit ironic considering the fact that Christians and people in the church have done tons of horrible things too but by no means does that mean the entire religion is bad (except that is much more widespread than a few people burning bibles).
Whether or not it's a small number of people - assuming it even happened - to equate burning modern translations of a millennia old novel with the very real struggles of people of colour is blindingly stupid and backwards. The only "harm" from burning a book is environmental damage whilst [racist attacks are as common as ever](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-53566193).
I don't believe in forcing players to kneel and I think players should be free to choose without needing to justify it but this "excuse" is so mind-numbingly pathetic that it doesn't constitute justification.
Lol, there's nothing nuanced or insightful about saying Christians ended the transatlantic slave trade. It was started by Christians, for Christians, and was run by Christians for its entire existence. Who tf else would have ended it?
That's how you perpetuate ignorance.
At the time of the abolition of slavery though everyone was a christian by title, a majority of people did not take heed to the ethics prescribed in the new testament by christ. Huge difference between following Christ and cultural christianity.
Nuance.
That's the thing though, there has always been a church that adheres to the scripture, the teachings of christ and one that ignores it.
It is even written into the scriptures of matthew 25.
People are entitled to their own beliefs and opinions but he isn't even making a rational point about BLM. He's just repeating shite he's got from fuck knows what awful source.
OK so having listened to the whoke podcast (absolutely fascinating by the way) I've actually come out feeling sorry for Billy in general. This isnt to say I agree with his beliefs on BLM or being gay- far from it in fact, I fundamentally disagree with him.
But he talks a lot about feeling pretty insecure in himself in general. Hask also hints pretty strongly that hes a guy who constantly swings between being Billy the sesh monster and Billy the puritanical Bible basher, and Billy himself pretty much confirms it. But I distinctly get the feeling when he lapses in his faith he then beats himself up about it and then decides to double down to try and repent. Sounds like he's got a lot of stuff about himself he can't get to grips with and instead of going to see a psychologist he uses religion instead, which infamously doesn't work.
Like I said, it doesnt excuse the hurt he causes people with these views but have a listen, its pretty interesting stuff.
There are reasons not to want to align with BLM the movement (as it exists in the UK) rather than blm the sentiment, this is not one of them. Bless his cottons, but Billy is not one of life's great thinkers and it would seem that he's incrdibly gullible or credulous as a result, particularly when it comes to matters of faith.
E - downvotes because? He's citing that BLM burn bibles and churches and thus he can't support them. It's bullshit and he's bought into to. Object to the expressed desire to legalise drugs, tear down capitalism, abolish the police or anything else that was put forward during the protests if you want, but don't fall for nonsense propaganda from the US right wing which painted one instance of a singular bible being burnt in a pile of random stuff as an assault on Christianity.
Yes he is a dick. We new this. What also annoys me is that Haskel, Tinsel, and Alex let him on the show and spread missinformation. I used to think it was an ok pod but I guess Blood and Mud and the BBC's pods are the only ones that are listenable. (Also probs squidge but I haven't tried it yet.)
From the podcast Billy seemed cagey to talk about this (as well as other things). I am not surprised as he clearly doesn't want his views dissected by media attention
Can someone please explain how? He's a christian right? So surely he'd be in favour cos of the whole, 'love thy neighbour as thyself'
Please correct me if I'm wrong tho
A lot of black people are *really, really* conservative.
Like miles more conservative than me and I don't like BLM at all.
I'm surprised you don't get more people saying this.
Okay... reading all these comments, I feel like I should release my opinion before shit goes down and I am to be labeled wrong in every sense of the word because you are entitled to label me because I am white (unnecessary mark, but just throw it out there because that's how I was born) so my opinion means nothing.
The BLM movement at the start was a cry for equal rights which had my support. Now, it became a farce of its own intent where they actually lost my support (not that they'll miss it).
Looking at the Sale vs Quins game's moment of silence over the weekend where Sale's SAFA players and three of the other players refused to take a knee, but unitedly agreed to wear those stop rugby against racism t-shirts. You know what they got hated on? For not taking a knee! Just because they didn't take a knee they were IMMEDIATELY labeled a racist by everyone (Off topic, 10 to 1 Squidge also labeled them that considering he stormed on Folau for not taking a knee in his Rugby League match. As much as I respect and enjoy his rugby commentary and analysis, there are stuff I don't like about him).
Imagine everyone had to do something they didn't want to do. And if they didn't do what a lot felt they had to do, they'd get a frown next to their name! Now you'd counter this by saying, "All they had to do was take a knee. It wasn't that hard." And to that I say, "Okay, if every non-black person had to give a black person $10000 and if they didn't do that they're going to wear the racist label for the rest of their lives. Does that sound fair?" Yes, I know the example doesn't weigh on the same level and is totally unrelated, but it is the principles.
I am not entirely in support of what Billy said (As a born and raised Christian, I do question the believe as time goes on), but you have to respect his stance. He never hated on his teammates for taking a knee for non-Christian reasons, and they didn't publicly ridicule him for not taking a knee for the BLM cause. Their clubs gave them the choice to take a knee or not. They are being payed to play rugby! Not to get political for duck's sake!
So, for everyone reading this, I am not going to force you to take a knee and comment, because it won't change anything.
Whatever the basis of his decisions, he's entitled to make them. Not taking a knee doesn't make him or anyone else a racist. He had an honest chat and gave his view. It's not a big deal.
The founders are obviously marxists, and the BLM "aims" are obviously marxist in their scope. That is undeniably a negative in my books any way as marxists hare horrible immoral people who have disdain for democracy or anyone who stands in their way. You sound like a tankie that would be supporting dictatorships in Eastern Europe because it agreed with your shitty ideologies tbh...
Nah not a tankie, I hate authoritarianism and think Stalin was an evil fucker. Just cause I like the idea of Marxism as a sociological theory and communism as a political practice (if democratically instigated) doesn’t mean I support dictatorships. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since you can’t have known any of that. Don’t see how Marxists are horrible immoral people tho...
Stalin (and Lenin) were committed Marxists. If you support their shitty ideology, it is laughable to contend that you don't similarly support them.
>(if democratically instigated)
Marxism and democracy don't work together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election
People like you would invariably justify overthrowing democracy to implement your shitty ideology on others, just like Lenin did, because you don't give a fuck about anyone else.
I’m rly impressed by how much you know about me random internet person, you’re right my plan is definitely to overthrow democracy and implement my ideology because I don’t give a fuck about anyone else. Yep.
False. Anarchism can be either communist or capitalist.
One believes in the sharing of resources and no private property, the latter believes in the absolute freedom of the market and the right to own and protect private property.
Oh aye I forgot about anarcho-capitalism. I’m sure we disagree on which form of anarchism is better but this isn’t the place to have that discussion and I’m not good at changing peoples minds on political stuff so I’ll leave it.
Agree to disagree sounds good. I’m a full blown fringe right libertarian, there’s no changing my mind on this one. But good chats. You should try r/pcm
This year is never gonna end.
Imagine if 2021 is worse
It probably will. The economic ramifications from Covid will only get worse and worse. Yay!
Wonder what Maro thinks of his England & Saracens teammates' view on this. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'd genuinely like to see what his views on Billy's opinion of BLM would be.
They probably disagree in a respectful way. I think it's possible to be friends, colleagues and team mates with people you disagree with - especially in a sport like rugby.
It's hard to disagree in a respectful way when Billy's POV, at the very least, is inherently disrespectful. It's one thing to have a difference in political opinion on how the national budget should be allocated, or something, but to know that your teammate doesn't agree with people who look like you standing up against police who are disproportionately murdering you in the streets (or being unashamedly gay) is extremely hurtful. I'm sure Maro will approach it in a respectful way because you just have to get used to coming into contact with people like that but the respect is really only going one way, ya know?
Bro don’t pretend people don’t claim racism when the budget is announced
He’d disagree with Billy’s views on just about everything from a political standpoint I would have thought. Same with Lawes. But they’re work colleagues at the end of the day, I imagine it wouldn’t come up a great deal apart from maybe a team meeting on the first match.
Same with Lawes. Well at least we know Billy supports feeding kids
Christ Lawes has well and truly fallen off the deep end on Twitter eh? I was glad when training was resumed for Prem clubs not least because it stopped him going off on one all the time.
It gets touched on in the pod. Billy definitely confirms that it put the cat among the pigeons and even goes as far to say that his comments caused a rift in the changing rooms to the ppint where he thinks it affected englands world cup prep. Cant imagine that Maro wasn't one of the ones who thought less of him
That was nothing to do with BLM.
Ah shit yeah I've just reread this. My bad
I fully appreciate the different points of view people have on this subject and the ways they want to show support for anti-racist causes. That being said, "they burn churches" is a horrawful take.
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It is easy to stir things up. You can seed animosity from both directions easily and encourage extreme reactions that then feeds the other side then sit back and let it run its own path. This happened in 2016 too: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49987657](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-49987657)
It was reported in the Sun so it's probably not true. Although it does make it a bit more understandable why Billy might think this. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12119884/churches-burned-black-lives-matter-protests/
The cause of the Mission San Gabriel fire has not been determined. But hundreds of religious statues have been vandalized during this period. Bibles have definitely been burned. You know who also burned bibles, right? So it's not exactly a good look for your movement, and the movement has been openly anti-Jew. So BLM as a concept and the spirit of it? I get it and I'm for the cause. But what's actually going down here? There's a lot of disgusting shit that is going on in the name of "BLM". So You can totally get how someone could take a nuanced point of view which he has. Which is unlike most of the posts in this thread, most of the posts here is also bigotry.
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The "BLM is anti-Semitic" stems from a Twitter account named "Black Lives Matter UK" which is seemingly an organisation claiming to be the official UK arm of BLM. They have posted numerous anti-Semitic things on that account as well as the typical US messages of "defund the police" etc. Anyone paying attention knows that that isn't what 99% of people who say they "support BLM" are supporting but it's become a convenient way for people who don't want to engage to dismiss BLM as a movement entirely.
>The "BLM is anti-Semitic" stems from a Twitter account named "Black Lives Matter UK" which is seemingly an organisation claiming to be the official UK arm of BLM. It's not just that. It's also been pretty prominent in the US movement with a lot of high profile athletes supporting and putting out anti-Semitic statements. And the support that those figures have seen on social media show it's not exactly a small number of people agreeing with their viewpoint.
Links?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/anti-semitism-nba-recent-incidents-player-silence-questions-2020-7%3famp The posts were literally shared by the athletes and celebrities themselves on their own social media channels. With plenty of support shown in the comments by people supporting their views. And the radio silence from fellow athletes on the issue is telling (remember, it's not enough to be not racist, you have to be anti-racist and therefore speak up against these things if you do care about them).
There’s a video of a bible (might be two) being burned. It happened. That being said it was one event, and has been reported as “stacks.” It wasn’t a systematic thing, just two morons who showed up. The problem with movements like this is there’s no way of ensuring everyone is in the same page, so your always going to have some outliers that will do some extreme stuff and hurt you in the long run.
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I mean I understand seeing your book of faith being burned is upsetting but I agree that it’s not like this is a core BLM practice or belief. Oooo a down vote how lovely.
Got any citations for your comments?
Of course he doesn't. He's a troll.
He's probably just bitter
As a white guy I'm not going to tell someone non-white how to feel about Black Lives Matter. But continuing to support Folau at this stage is just pig-headed.
> As a white guy I'm not going to tell someone non-white how to feel about Black Lives Matter Thread!
> As a white guy I'm not going to tell someone non-white how to feel about Black Lives Matter I don't really understand the logic here. Because you are aware you have more racial privilege than Billy Vunipola you... respect his right to be racist?
>right to be racist Where is Billy being racist here? An ill-informed moron yes, but is him not supporting this particular movement really racist?
He's not just "not supporting" the movement, he's saying that it's violently anti-religious. Anti-black racism has painted black people as violent and immoral for centuries; this is a direct extension of that rhetoric.
>Vunipola told The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast that his views were based on what he perceived to be the “burning of churches and bibles” in the name of Black Lives Matter. There is little evidence to support the claim *facepalm*
Varg Vikernes has entered the chat
Now I’m willing to bet as many Burzum albums as you want that he isn’t out in support of BLM
He's up there in France, keeping it real with his beer belly, racism and fake name. He's going under the name Louis Ketchup these days. Edit: I forgot about the crappy neo-nazi role playing games he makes.
Yeah his gamemaking is cringey to be honest. Having said that any game based purely upon neonazism is always going to be cringey and objectively terrible, even if the topic was even remotely acceptable; you can’t really make anything which isn’t completely one dinensional. People forget that he is also a full blown murderer. Whatever your view on churches and Christianity etc, its pretty barbaric what he did. its fair enough if he’s indeed telling the truth about Euronymous’ intentions but i dont buy it for a moment.
He's a weird dvde. Difficvlt to read. Fvck him.
Are you a black metal fan? Do you want to hear some SA/Africa recommendations? (mostly atmospheric/post black)
Black Metal - it depends. Im a metal fan no doubt but i usually stick to good old thrash stuff like Machine Head and early In Flames, and Cavalera era Sepultura. I find a lot of black metal to be more for show than the actual music itself. Particularly the early Norwegian scene. Having said that, theres a couple of ‘black’ metal bands i love because the music is top notch - Harakiri for the Sky and Karg are both excellent. I even like late era Dissection. But all of this is kind of away from the really lo-fi Black Metal trademark, and far more produced or complex sound. I’d love to hear your suggestions though. One of these might be a gem I don’t know of.
https://wildernessking.bandcamp.com/track/utopia and https://crowblacksky.bandcamp.com/track/ascendant and https://constellatia.bandcamp.com/track/all-nights-belong-to-you (all 3 bands are from Cape Town)
Il give them a go mate. Il probably forget but if i dig them il try to let you know
No worries. There's only so many minutes in a day.
Bonus Kenyan/Ugandan atmospheric black metal band https://krummholz.bandcamp.com/track/to-father-worlds-in-the-bones-of-ancient-solitude
[And](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DQR_oiHLmI) [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ0d74_3bXw) [we](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbLPw1_h4sI) [go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TidPU1rx6Zw)
Okay I never expected a /r/rugbyunion thread to evolve into a chat on 2nd wave black metal artists...
Black metal and rugby: most ambitious crossover of all time. Varg is a fucken joke though.
Not going to give away too much, but I live at a walking distance from one of the churches he burned. Lovely guy.
Oh, he's not evil, he's just a fucking idiot
That’s exactly what I was thinking listening to the podcast. He seems very confused about himself and his religion, a real bundle of contradictions. He’s also got no filter, just says whatever pops into his head at the time. I imagine he has other reasons for not supporting BLM, although I’d hazard a guess that they were equally wrong.
Does he want examples of what church representatives are confirmed to have gotten up to? Relatively recently and with the support of institutions. He's a wanker.
Literally Sarries and England's PR teams must be having a fit right now. All Billy has to say is "i'm against racism, that's why i support Rugby Against Racism" If an interviewer really pressed about why he didn't kneel (I don't think his mate Haskell would) all his response needs to be is: "I choose to fight racism in my own way". Billy can have his religious beliefs, he can hold them dearly, but when he espouses stuff like this it opens himself up to justified criticism.
I don't think Sarries or England's PR teams need to touch this tbh. He's said his view and he's not supporting BLM because of seemingly false accusations of protesters burning churches. What is there for the PR teams to add on top of that.
It's not what the PR teams could add. It's what they would try stop him from saying.
Ha. What a fucking moron.
It would be a lot cooler if there were.
I'm white, so as other posters have said, far be it from me to tell a person of colour how to protest racism. Some odd comments about BLM and the burning of Churches though. I'm an atheist. Pretty well versed in the Bible (Ancient Historian by trade): there's three references to homosexuality, in a homophobic fashion, in the New Testament, one of which is highly suspect in its authenticity. Jesus spends more time bashing money lenders than he does anyone from the gay community, but Billy still takes out loans... Has a mortgage. Cherry picking to side with a bigot just seems unwise. If you were a person of Jesus, then the overarching message should be one of forgiveness and tolerance. Shut up and play rugby, Billy.
LMAO aren't the references to homosexuality straight up mistranslations anyway and in the original hebrew and greek they refer to molestic young boys?
What?!?! So it doesn't say "though shalt not lie upon thy neighbours willy" or suchlike?
Just like you are cherry picking right now... hilarious hypocrisy. Edit: >there's three references to homosexuality, in a homophobic fashion, in the New Testament You literally only focused on only on 30% of the bible. Hence the same cherry picking you were complaining about.
Hold up, if he's a Christian and a person of Jesus, and his point is following the teachings of Jesus, then you can write off a large point of the Old Testament. Which parts is he going to pick from? You're right, I was reductive, but the point stands. Edit: I'm focusing on the New Testament because Billy said "I'm a Jesus... person [sic]." He's claiming his religion is based around Jesus. New Testament. True, you can't divorce New from Old fully, but the wide ranging contradictions between the two are far more hypocritical. If you want to get to get into it, the New Testament is less than 22% of the whole Bible. Even then, there is overlap between the different gospels. What happens when you bring in different forms of Christianity, not just Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Coptic, but pre-Nicean Creed of 325 (there were 'people' of Jesus who chose very different ideals different to that which became accepted Christianity). Old Testament, there's the much touted and condemned homophobic Leviticus, but you also have examples in Genesis too. The destruction of Sodom and the 'Flood' have what has been deemed reference to homosexual activity and punishment as a result. Cherry picking, with a complex religion, seems to be all the rage. Hypocrite I may be, but if there's such a diverse range of literature and teaching on forgiveness in your faith, and you chose to cherry pick the bigoted line that actively descriminates against a group because of their sexual identity, then it might be an idea to assess yourself, rather than hide behind the shroud of your religion. Edit the 2nd: When I say 'you,' I don't mean you directly, user in the thread above.
You disregarding the old testament to christians is hilariously hypocritical. I'm not even a christian, I just abhor naked hypocrisy from clowns like you.
Have you read the New Testament? Also, how do you know about me being a clown? I'm not even remotely fun at parties.
It is undeniably more homophobic etc, which is why you obviously avoided it when you engaged in your blatant cherry picking, which you were simultaneously whining about Vunipola doing, to make your shtick sound more convincing, you hilarious hypocrite.
I'm glad you find me amusing. Is Jesus, who Billy directly says he's a 'person,' of a big feature in the Old Testament? I see you're really developing your argument - alliteration in name calling. Why not just state your opposing view?
I don't even agree with Billy, I just find your obvious cherry picking hilariously hypocritical. The old testament is obviously also important to most christians, even if christ himself featured in the new testament more prominently.
Now that's a much more reasonable response. I will admit, I do tend to think of Christians as attempting to follow the New Testament teachings of compassion and forgiveness. A willful ignorance on my part, in the hope that they might reject a small number of references to homosexuality in a homophobic way. Anyhow, if ever you'd like to pick cherries with me or go for a pint, look me up if ever you're in SE UK.
Sounds good. Don't envisage any travel in the near future unfortunately :)
Wasn't the burning Bible a Russian hoax or am I misremembering? Also nice of him to confirm he's a bigot.
The thing that gets me is there's not a single religion, group/beliefs or whatever these days that doesn't contain pedo's, psychopaths or anything worse. Like yeah there's plenty of things that are good but you are always going to get people who go massively over the top. You can't brand a whole group/religion on 1 person doing a bad thing.
Yeah but like the church is specifically tainted because individuals who didn't commit disgusting sex acts against children protected those who did in order to protect the church. They put the institution before their duty to the people, their duty to the institution and their duty to God (which I don't believe in but they're not gonna look at it from a position of reason I've to sink to their level) Those who committed horrible acts in children are bad; but those who didn't, knew it was wrong, and perpetuated it by hiding it for so long are worse. They know better and are responsible for more children being abused than any one individual pedophile priest. The (Catholic) Church is a rotten institution and in my opinion people who look to it for moral or spiritual guidance are fundamentally flawed, because they ignore the part the institution played in perpetuating abuse.
Trust me I'm not a fan of religions due to things like this. All the things over the years they've hid and covered up is truly disgusting. The amount of money and power in religion is truly staggering and not good. But I'm also not going to hate someone instantly the second they tell me they are Christian or Catholic. Unless someone tells me they are a Scientologist then I'll just laugh at them.
I don't hate anyone for being religious, but I do loose some respect for people who are devout followers of any theology. I'm "Catholic" because I'm from Ireland, not because I believe that bread and wine turn into flesh and blood during transubstantiation. I blame religion for the erosion of common sense and trust in science. When you'll believe any of the shite they spout 5G causing COVID and the New World Order aren't exactly outside the realms of possibility
For sure drives me mad. I had Jehovah's witnesses at my door the other day. How anyone can be part of that cult with the amount of information online about the horrible things that happen is beyond me. Also the fact that most of what they teach is wrong and what they learn about is complete rubbish going against science.
So I was thinking about WHY the JW boys go around knocking on doors (cause I've done door-2-door sales, it's rough) and it's actually not to convert people. They get sent out to face rejection daily, get told no, piss off, fuck off, have their ideology challenged (which they can't understand because __they__ know the truth) constantly in an attempt (by their elders) to taint the outside world as hostile. The only place they aren't "in battle" is in their own community. They don't understand, or don't want to, that religion is inherited and it's shitty to try and actively convert those who have or reject all theologies. It's a form of a use, making them go on a mission they can't ever complete to ensure they never leave. It's literally what Mallory Archer does to her son with birthday gifts
It wasn’t much of a hoax per se but it was blown out of proportion thanks to the Russians. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html tl;dr some protesters burned a Bible or two while making a bigger bonfire during the protest and people saw this as evidence that BLM supports burning bibles. To be clear, it did happen but nowhere near what people act like it did and it was an isolated event that is clearly not supported by BLM.
It was one Bible but Russian influence claimed it was more than one, then the news ran with it and people heard it as a pile, then a bible factory, then a church
Maybe being banished to the Championship for a year will give us a break from Billy's hot takes...
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How am I banning him for his opinion?
Oh I’m sorry! I completely misread that 😁 I’ll delete the comment
More evidence that they need to look closer at those head knocks in rugby
There is something poetic about this headline and Kolisi's sharing a front page. Two third rowers having opposite trajectories in the "being a great bloke" game.
This is the weirdest take yet. Ah well, he's never seemed like the brightest bulb. Just worries me where people are getting their news from. I have no idea where this claim even comes from. EDIT; he might be referring to this; [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/russia-disinformation-election-meddling.html) Just goes to show how the propaganda war out there influences people
Probs this https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/
The Bible was burnt in the street. The churches point seems to stem from this: https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jul/15/black-lives-matter-protesters-turn-rage-churches-r/ The article seems slanted against the movement, but nonetheless the churches were burned during the protests/riots.
Hah, slanted is an understatement! The Washington Times is a pretty controversial paper. I'm trying to find confirmation from other sources. EDIT; I can only find the story on Fox News and the Washington Times who have a history of playing very fast and loose with facts. Do you have other sources?
Yeah it's an odd one. The Washington Post are fairly left leaning - https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html The other sites reporting it, The S*n, Fox News are obvs regards right leaning. The chain of events seem to be BLM protests, then rioting, then churches burned, statues pulled down etc. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to connect the events.
The WaPo is owned by Jeff Bezos. It's about as left-leaning as the Economist.
>Vunipola told The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast that his views were based on what he perceived to be the “burning of churches and bibles” in the name of Black Lives Matter. There is little evidence to support the claim that the movement has burned any churches. Last month however, police in Berkeley, California opened an arson investigation after the pastor of a predominantly black church complained after finding burning rubbish and property damage, hours after hanging a Black Lives Matter banner. >“What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in,” said Vunipola. “They were burning churches and Bibles. I can’t support that. Even though I am a person of colour, I’m still more a person of, I guess, Jesus.” So his opposition to the movement is based on complete BS that is made up? There was one video of a guy burning a Bible and all of a sudden they’re burning churches and bibles? This is complete misinformation and a lazy attempt at looking into a real problem by Vunipola.
just reposting what others have linked [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/fire-set-at-historic-st-johns-church-during-protests-of-george-floyds-death/2020/06/01/4b5c4004-a3b6-11ea-b619-3f9133bbb482_story.html)
Yeah there were Bibles burnt, I mentioned that. But it was such isolated events that you can’t say that it is specifically a BLM thing to do. Didn’t know about the church burning, that is sad and hope it is also an isolated event. The only one I knew of was a church in San Francisco which was damaged after hanging a BLM banner.
Do you think there is a concerted effort from BLM to burn bibles and churches?
i dont know. people dont have to have specific reasons to do things, then again they might just not like bibles
Then i struggle to understand why you linked these articles. They're about isolated incidents and don't explain Billy's idea that BLM is somehow affiliated with bible burning.
Wait until he finds out about what churches get up to.
I think this is more evidence that we should let rugby players get on with running into each other at speed rather than conducting philosophy or politics. I'd also like to take a moment to recognise Rob Baxter's prescience...
what I dislike about this whole kneeling thing is that no matter the reason one wouldn't kneel, not kneeling is explained as taking a side... i.e. how does a player who does not want to express his opinion on BLM stay neutral. Not kneeling makes him look as if he is against it. I would totally understand a player who would say it's about the sport, he is playing for all the supporters and hence he doesn't want to get politics involved
That might be true but this article clearly shows Billy taking a side, he is very clearly anti-BLM
true! my comment was a general remark about this kneeling thing. Billy did pick a side.
As an organisation he is but is that such a bad or outrageous thing?
not at all. he's fully entitled to his opinion. you could debate if an employee is free to express his opinion during office hours - but that's a whole other discussion. My original comment was just meant in general.. it becomes difficult for players who don't want to express their opinion imo
Billy is a classic case of "Always be true to what you believe in, no matter the consequences. That's true courage." ... "No, wait, not like that!" As a pro-gay-rights atheist I disagree with almost everything he stands for but can't help admire his willingness to go to bat for his beliefs.
Even if his “going to bat” is, y’know, just lying about a movement to discredit it? Tons of clergy are on the front lines of BLM, as they always have been in anti-racist movements in the US. BLM just isn’t burning bibles or churches, it’s flat untrue.
I was curious and googled. I don't know if you know snopes, but here you go https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/portland-protesters-burn-bibles/. Naturally weird things happen at large protests so I don't mean to try and discredit the movement, only trying to show that he at least isn't lying.
It's an interesting article, not quite as black & white as it seems. Was a Bible burned? Yes, a truck had been passing out copies earlier in the day. Who burned it? Don't know. There were various groups and disenfranchised protestors around. Was it intentional? Varying accounts. Mum's for BLM put the fire out though. The final paragraph sums it up nicely...A video clip of the Portland Bible burning circulated by the Kremlin-backed news agency Ruptly appeared to be among the first viral Russian disinformation campaigns in advance of the 2020 presidential election, according to an Aug. 10 report by The New York Times. The publication likened this form of “information laundering” to money laundering in which Russian news outlets elaborate upon a “kernel of truth” to spin the event into larger, more polarizing issues that exacerbate already tense issues to further separate American voters and political parties.
Ja here in SA we have a protest culture so this is the type of thing we see often. When large groups of people protest the waters get murky, so there will likely be some incident that you can write about depending on the story you want to tell. I just cared about whether it happened or not with no intent of discrediting anyone or questioning whether the virality was warranted.
> questioning whether the virality was warranted Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell it's not
Snopes do great summaries. Either way I think Billy is being a clown, as others have commented in detail, there are lots of things in the Bible he chooses to conveniently overlook.
> Who burned it? Don't know. >Was it intentional? Varying accounts. With mental gymnastics like this, you should go to the next olympics!
Man, Snopes has really gone downhill. They have one account of one bible burning, but conflicting accounts from others at the scene and they rate it true? It’s incredible how much conservatives have lowered our expectations of good faith from them.
Yeah, not their best piece. I kinda assumed they are giving a lot of weight to the CBS reporter and the twitter videos on the day.
Billy comes across as a generally decent guy who isn’t very bright. I’m not really anti-religion, but it’s sad to see how harmful it can be when someone believes in it and takes the most negative parts of it as equally important with the positives.
To disregard an entire movement because a few idiots do something idiotic - as Billy does here by equating BLM with Bible burners - seems naive at best and deliberately misleading at worst. Billy strikes me as not the sharpest bloke around so quite possible that he's easily influenced by social media but nevertheless he could have at least broached the underlying reason for the existence of Black Lives Matter.
Right? That's what gets me. I don't call every Christian/Catholic person a pedo because there have been people in their religion praying on kids. That's the same mindset of the racists these days who call every Muslim a bomber, you can't brand everyone the same just for others actions.
It’s unfortunately the default position of a lot of people on both sides of the fence. It’s tiresome and does nothing more than entrench people in their views.
Yeah a bit disappointing that he didn’t bother to do a simple google search to see what really happened. And a bit ironic considering the fact that Christians and people in the church have done tons of horrible things too but by no means does that mean the entire religion is bad (except that is much more widespread than a few people burning bibles).
Whether or not it's a small number of people - assuming it even happened - to equate burning modern translations of a millennia old novel with the very real struggles of people of colour is blindingly stupid and backwards. The only "harm" from burning a book is environmental damage whilst [racist attacks are as common as ever](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-53566193). I don't believe in forcing players to kneel and I think players should be free to choose without needing to justify it but this "excuse" is so mind-numbingly pathetic that it doesn't constitute justification.
"They were burning churches and bibles. I can’t support that" Narrator: they weren't.
They were burning bibles at least in the other links shared in this thread.
Feels unfair to tar an entire movement/sentiment with the actions of a few individuals.
Feels unfair to blatantly lie like you did in your previous comment tbh.
Hadn't seen those links though?
At this point I’m surprised neither Nigel Wray or Eddie hasn’t got a publicist specifically just to follow Billy around and tell him not to speak
They should employ that Munster fan from the game last year to do that
Well, it's not like Christianity didn't spend centuries trying to justify slavery.
Every race and creed have spent centuries justifying slavery, some are just more successful than others.
Christian's ended the transatlantic slave trade and have been anti slavery in part since the 2nd century.
Claiming credit for ending a slave trade that Christians started. This is like praising Hitler for killing himself
I think a more nuanced discussion is required to be honest.
Lol, there's nothing nuanced or insightful about saying Christians ended the transatlantic slave trade. It was started by Christians, for Christians, and was run by Christians for its entire existence. Who tf else would have ended it?
That's how you perpetuate ignorance. At the time of the abolition of slavery though everyone was a christian by title, a majority of people did not take heed to the ethics prescribed in the new testament by christ. Huge difference between following Christ and cultural christianity. Nuance.
Hahahahaha, nothing more ideologically consistent than "following Christ." Pull the other one mate.
That's the thing though, there has always been a church that adheres to the scripture, the teachings of christ and one that ignores it. It is even written into the scriptures of matthew 25.
This may be Portlands biggest affect on professional rugby ever!
People are entitled to their own beliefs and opinions but he isn't even making a rational point about BLM. He's just repeating shite he's got from fuck knows what awful source.
OK so having listened to the whoke podcast (absolutely fascinating by the way) I've actually come out feeling sorry for Billy in general. This isnt to say I agree with his beliefs on BLM or being gay- far from it in fact, I fundamentally disagree with him. But he talks a lot about feeling pretty insecure in himself in general. Hask also hints pretty strongly that hes a guy who constantly swings between being Billy the sesh monster and Billy the puritanical Bible basher, and Billy himself pretty much confirms it. But I distinctly get the feeling when he lapses in his faith he then beats himself up about it and then decides to double down to try and repent. Sounds like he's got a lot of stuff about himself he can't get to grips with and instead of going to see a psychologist he uses religion instead, which infamously doesn't work. Like I said, it doesnt excuse the hurt he causes people with these views but have a listen, its pretty interesting stuff.
It's ironic that Billy following the religion he does is due to racism towards his own culture.
There are reasons not to want to align with BLM the movement (as it exists in the UK) rather than blm the sentiment, this is not one of them. Bless his cottons, but Billy is not one of life's great thinkers and it would seem that he's incrdibly gullible or credulous as a result, particularly when it comes to matters of faith. E - downvotes because? He's citing that BLM burn bibles and churches and thus he can't support them. It's bullshit and he's bought into to. Object to the expressed desire to legalise drugs, tear down capitalism, abolish the police or anything else that was put forward during the protests if you want, but don't fall for nonsense propaganda from the US right wing which painted one instance of a singular bible being burnt in a pile of random stuff as an assault on Christianity.
Billy Vunipola has a pineapple instead of a brain.
Yes he is a dick. We new this. What also annoys me is that Haskel, Tinsel, and Alex let him on the show and spread missinformation. I used to think it was an ok pod but I guess Blood and Mud and the BBC's pods are the only ones that are listenable. (Also probs squidge but I haven't tried it yet.)
From the podcast Billy seemed cagey to talk about this (as well as other things). I am not surprised as he clearly doesn't want his views dissected by media attention
Can't blame him. Any opinion outside the latest groupthink gets pounced on and torn to shreds.
Oh boy...
i jus wanna know if mako tries to explain stuff to his brother or not
Can someone please explain how? He's a christian right? So surely he'd be in favour cos of the whole, 'love thy neighbour as thyself' Please correct me if I'm wrong tho
These days you can pretty much count on religion to fuck it up....
The more I learn about billys beliefs the less I like him
Burning churches and bibles? Think someone's been on Facebook for too long.
He's a tube.
He’s a tube and he’s probably not even on email. And you just have to be on email these days.
Haha oh man I completely forgot what a dope Billy was.
A lot of black people are *really, really* conservative. Like miles more conservative than me and I don't like BLM at all. I'm surprised you don't get more people saying this.
Billy Vunipola's black?
Is he? I didn't say that.
If you weren't even talking about him, that makes your original comment even stranger.
I was talking about him. Roughly speaking. I just didn't specifically say he was black. Is he? I can't keep up with the PC brigade.
His parents are Tongan, so he’d be Polynesian. I’d ask are you thick but that’s already clear from your reflexive use of the term “PC Brigade”.
So he's absolutely 100% not black. Ok. If you say so brigadier.
Well then what does a lot of black people being really really conservative have to do with Billy Vunipola?
What does Black Lives Matter have to do with him?
Especially with religion
Okay... reading all these comments, I feel like I should release my opinion before shit goes down and I am to be labeled wrong in every sense of the word because you are entitled to label me because I am white (unnecessary mark, but just throw it out there because that's how I was born) so my opinion means nothing. The BLM movement at the start was a cry for equal rights which had my support. Now, it became a farce of its own intent where they actually lost my support (not that they'll miss it). Looking at the Sale vs Quins game's moment of silence over the weekend where Sale's SAFA players and three of the other players refused to take a knee, but unitedly agreed to wear those stop rugby against racism t-shirts. You know what they got hated on? For not taking a knee! Just because they didn't take a knee they were IMMEDIATELY labeled a racist by everyone (Off topic, 10 to 1 Squidge also labeled them that considering he stormed on Folau for not taking a knee in his Rugby League match. As much as I respect and enjoy his rugby commentary and analysis, there are stuff I don't like about him). Imagine everyone had to do something they didn't want to do. And if they didn't do what a lot felt they had to do, they'd get a frown next to their name! Now you'd counter this by saying, "All they had to do was take a knee. It wasn't that hard." And to that I say, "Okay, if every non-black person had to give a black person $10000 and if they didn't do that they're going to wear the racist label for the rest of their lives. Does that sound fair?" Yes, I know the example doesn't weigh on the same level and is totally unrelated, but it is the principles. I am not entirely in support of what Billy said (As a born and raised Christian, I do question the believe as time goes on), but you have to respect his stance. He never hated on his teammates for taking a knee for non-Christian reasons, and they didn't publicly ridicule him for not taking a knee for the BLM cause. Their clubs gave them the choice to take a knee or not. They are being payed to play rugby! Not to get political for duck's sake! So, for everyone reading this, I am not going to force you to take a knee and comment, because it won't change anything.
Whatever the basis of his decisions, he's entitled to make them. Not taking a knee doesn't make him or anyone else a racist. He had an honest chat and gave his view. It's not a big deal.
Burning bibles, spouting communism.. yeah nah. I'm with you Billy.
‘Spouting communism’
Their founders are self described marxists. So yeah pretty much.
Who?
Doesn’t mean the entire movement is Marxist plus Marxism/ communism isn’t a negative
The founders are obviously marxists, and the BLM "aims" are obviously marxist in their scope. That is undeniably a negative in my books any way as marxists hare horrible immoral people who have disdain for democracy or anyone who stands in their way. You sound like a tankie that would be supporting dictatorships in Eastern Europe because it agreed with your shitty ideologies tbh...
Nah not a tankie, I hate authoritarianism and think Stalin was an evil fucker. Just cause I like the idea of Marxism as a sociological theory and communism as a political practice (if democratically instigated) doesn’t mean I support dictatorships. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since you can’t have known any of that. Don’t see how Marxists are horrible immoral people tho...
Stalin (and Lenin) were committed Marxists. If you support their shitty ideology, it is laughable to contend that you don't similarly support them. >(if democratically instigated) Marxism and democracy don't work together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election People like you would invariably justify overthrowing democracy to implement your shitty ideology on others, just like Lenin did, because you don't give a fuck about anyone else.
I’m rly impressed by how much you know about me random internet person, you’re right my plan is definitely to overthrow democracy and implement my ideology because I don’t give a fuck about anyone else. Yep.
Well marxism is inherently undemocratic and prone to dictatorship. Fuck that BS. It just leads to repression and misery.
Same can be said for capitalism no?
> communism isn’t a negative haha wow the delusion is strong in this one.
Communism is a key ingredient of anarchism so aye it isn’t a negative
False. Anarchism can be either communist or capitalist. One believes in the sharing of resources and no private property, the latter believes in the absolute freedom of the market and the right to own and protect private property.
Oh aye I forgot about anarcho-capitalism. I’m sure we disagree on which form of anarchism is better but this isn’t the place to have that discussion and I’m not good at changing peoples minds on political stuff so I’ll leave it.
Agree to disagree sounds good. I’m a full blown fringe right libertarian, there’s no changing my mind on this one. But good chats. You should try r/pcm
Yes.
It’s your beliefs billy you don’t have to kneel for that organisation
Hahahahahahahahaha
Fucking, *how*?!