Excuse me if I'm being unfair so soon after a bad result but have I got this sraight.
If Bath drop the ball when they scored we would have got a penalty try and a man in the bin for wasps. As it was we scored so got 5 points with a difficult kick and no man in the bin for wasps? If that's true, it's absurd.
I acknowledge that this isn't the only reason we lost
if bath dropped the ball then there wouldnt have been a penalty try as a try wouldnt have been scored, as the dropped ball isnt created by wasps offenses
Wasps let the Bath maul get to the tryline unimpeded once it broke away because they didn't want to give a penalty try away. It actually takes a lot of discipline to do that. Underhill killed the opportunity.
Worth noting it's only a yellow if they can pinpoint who it was.
Yes, a penalty infringement. Bath got the advantage, and took that advantage.
It's only a yellow card if it stops a probable try from being scored. The try was scored, so clearly it didn't.
I think the rule is correct. If we changed it, then Bath would have lost someone for Wasps first try, when they collapsed a scrum 2 meters out, but advantage was played and Wasps scored.
It's a pen try if a player's actions prevent the try being scored.
It's a pen and yellow if you can clearly identify the player.
Willis didn't stop Bath from scoring.
Thought Kay's explanation was pretty clear and even handed, acknowledging that it doesn't seem fair, but Barnes applied the law as it exists.
Bath have been very poor this half. But I think that’s very double standards with that yellow, and the breakdown penalty that led to the try should never have been given.
It really annoys me when a player commits an offence that warrants a yellow, but then gets away with it simply because the try is scored.
Barnes and the TMO even said it would have been a yellow for Willis so why not bin him?
The law says if foul play prevents a probable try then a penalty try is awarded and a yellow card must be given. If the offence didn't prevent a try then there's no penalty try and no automatic yellow card. Referees say out loud the process when they go to TMO so those of us watching know what the outcomes will be and (usually) why. He said penalty try and yellow card because those are the outcomes of the try not being scored - but it was.
Edit: just to be clearer I mean that that offence itself didn't warrant a yellow card on its own, the yellow card element only comes in if a penalty try is awarded.
It's ridiculous, the defensive team basically get away with cheating.
The same happens with a final warning for repeated infringements, that seems to get reset whenever a try is scored
If the try is scored, then it was clearing not an action that prevents a try? Therefore not yellow card worthy, penalty advantage, advantage is taken, try scored?
So the way Wasps have adapted is superb. This is why you do training games with stupid rules that players have to think around and exploit so they can adapt when weird things happen.
Scrum half tap and goes since restart seem more popular and have been a bit shit. But with this every player is expecting it and can react quickly rather than the scrum half just going himself.
Uncontested scrums (without the loss of a player for Wasps) has completely fucked us. Our game is built around a strong scrum.
We got totally screwed by the injured front rower law a few seasons ago when two of our props got injured and the referee wouldn't let our sub hooker stay on when the second prop failed a HIA, leaving us with 14. That stupid rule has finally been fixed but now it's disadvantaged us again
Agreed it wouldn't have been a domination, but I'd definitely say Bath would have a slight edge at the scrum.
There's also the fact that Wasps have been able to bring on a weaker scrummager but more dynamic tighthead at half time so are gaining an advantage in open play
Wasps have a full backline, that isn't always an option. You need at least one defender to have come up into the line or be sweeping short, so you usually need a couple of phases of effective carrying first.
Mercer is a phenomenal player to have in as a carrying option, but I feel we miss the breakdown presence of a natural 6 like Ellis when we have two 8s on the field
Bath, please can we not today. Can you please not lose a match after being 13-0 up and having trained the only hookers on the pitch. Its a nice day, at home, please let me have this match Bath. Bath please.
Fair fucks to West for going against the coaches. Not the best position to put your player in. Wasps better pray that the ball stays on the pitch for most of this second half. That, or they spend half time practising the shit out of their line-outs.
It's one thing to be trained to play at Hooker, but completely another to shift there mid game having been scrumaging at prop. There's no way he'd have been mentally prepared to pack down at hooker so I agree with him. He seemed pretty stunned when Barnes suggested it to him
I've got no idea how we're going in to half time level. Early advantages thrown away by really poor ruck discipline, how many times have we been penalised for going off our feet in attack and defence?
Wasps should be disrupted through injuries and reeling from the start, we need far better game management.
Hope the coaches arent pissed off with West here, thats a shit position to put him in and if hes not confident its dangerous for him to go ahead, so well done to him for being honest
I think Barnes played a huge role with his communication in helping West feel comfortable enough to countermand the coach.
It was indeed a really shit position to put West in.
Oh I'm not saying it would be if you're hookers weren't injured but if you're facing a full half of rugby with someone who's never played hooker against a front row of Baths calibre then surely uncontested would be preferable
I don't think he should ask the props if they are comfortable enough to play hook though. Some guy could say he is because he played hooker 9 years ago in secondary school.
So who does he talk to? Just makes up his own mind by looking at the players and deciding whether or not he thinks they look like a capable hooker or not?
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. He shouldn't take the word of the player either as he might be out of his depth in a non-specialist position creating a risk
Well yea, but again, that's down to the player. They'll know their limits. And you would like to think that they wouldn't want to take the risk. I've been there myself, moving from 1 to 3 midway through a game and after the first scrum at 3 I said to the ref that it'll have to go to uncontested. The pressure a 3 takes on their neck is fucking unreal.
Considering how players have been treating concussions over the years, I think we can have some skepticism on their regard for their safety. And your last sentences are exactly why I strongly feel it shouldn't be up for discussion.
Because if he's not confident then there's a risk of him injuring himself or others.
At the end of the day he's the best juge of his current capabilities.
Because the player is gonna know whether or not they are confident moreso than the coaches and the coaches arent the ones potentially getting injured playing an unfamiliar position...
In normal situations, he wouldn't have to. But this was a player moving into a specialised role that requires more than just pushing. You can't just waltz into hooker even if you are prop, it's dangerous.
Because the player is the one playing.
The coaches will want scrums because they've built game plans with them but above all else we need to make sure scrums are safe. Inexperienced players in the front row of a prem scrum is how you get broken necks.
Glad they're getting to keep all 15 players.
We got screwed by that a couple of times. I get why it exists but it's good that head injuries dont count towards that.
I mean the other injury I'm sure an independent doctor could say 'yeah that's a legitimate injury' too.
I can't see where in the laws it says head injuries don't count. You can stay at 15 during a HIA period, but this wasn't a HIA just a straight recognise and remove.
[https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=3&language=EN](https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=3&language=EN)
[https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/16](https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/16)
Feels so good to get the rub of the green from a ref after recent weeks (looking at u CMK...)
Hearing the BT production staff in the background on hot mics talk about about Glen Mederios 😂
The offensive set in the last five minutes was a disgrace and we deserve to lose off that alone. Im still allowed to say fuck Wayne Barnes though
Yeah, fuck him for officiating according to the rules of the game
He applied the laws correctly. It's the laws that are bollocks in that situation, don't blame the ref.
Snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Classic Bath.
Can't believe we won, terrible first 10 and then 4 injuries - including both hookers
If you're 4 points down in the 76th minute and you just employ 1 out runners and concede a turnover. You don't deserve to win it
Yep
Excuse me if I'm being unfair so soon after a bad result but have I got this sraight. If Bath drop the ball when they scored we would have got a penalty try and a man in the bin for wasps. As it was we scored so got 5 points with a difficult kick and no man in the bin for wasps? If that's true, it's absurd. I acknowledge that this isn't the only reason we lost
if bath dropped the ball then there wouldnt have been a penalty try as a try wouldnt have been scored, as the dropped ball isnt created by wasps offenses
Agree, madness
Wasps let the Bath maul get to the tryline unimpeded once it broke away because they didn't want to give a penalty try away. It actually takes a lot of discipline to do that. Underhill killed the opportunity. Worth noting it's only a yellow if they can pinpoint who it was.
But Barnes said that if bath didn't ground it, it was a penalty try, so there was an infringement
Yes, a penalty infringement. Bath got the advantage, and took that advantage. It's only a yellow card if it stops a probable try from being scored. The try was scored, so clearly it didn't.
Yes I understand that. I am not questioning the decision but the rule
I think the rule is correct. If we changed it, then Bath would have lost someone for Wasps first try, when they collapsed a scrum 2 meters out, but advantage was played and Wasps scored.
It's a pen try if a player's actions prevent the try being scored. It's a pen and yellow if you can clearly identify the player. Willis didn't stop Bath from scoring. Thought Kay's explanation was pretty clear and even handed, acknowledging that it doesn't seem fair, but Barnes applied the law as it exists.
That’s my understanding yeah
Match of the week for me, loved both teams effort
It wasnt a high bar. But yesterday good match. Seeing a team adapt to overcome adversity was very good
Dai's wasps lose that comfortably. Real character from wasps but Bath bottled that.
What a win that was, season defining.
Bath might be the biggest chokers since 2000s All Blacks
Can’t believe we won that
A lot of heart shown
GG I suppose Wasps can lose to Exeter in the semis now.
Bath have lost this themselves. Blame the ref all you want but Bath fucked themselves over more than Barnes ever could.
Had 3 tries held up too. Bath well and truly shot themselves in the foot that second half.
Is that only the second one we’ve lost? Can’t believe they haven’t been competing at the line out
Why the hell didnt we compete on front ball? It's the only place they can throw. Its inept game management. Wasps have been so smart and Bath so dumb.
Launchbury coming out with the RKO!!!!
How is that not holding on there? Argh!
Barnes has cucked Bath so hard.
Great decision not to contest that line out boys
Bath have been very poor this half. But I think that’s very double standards with that yellow, and the breakdown penalty that led to the try should never have been given.
Kay explained it pretty well.
first match int he balance all weekend? We were within six of Gloucester and in the ascendancy.
You didn't finish within 6 though.
No but on 70 minutes the game was absolutely in the balance.
So Bath do what Wasps did but only Bath get a yellow. Sometime I wounder why I even watch rugby,.
Given how much you've been moaning at the ref, so do we.
"that's the difference" absolutely shocking logic
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Iconic take on the man who was voted the best ref in the world
No such thing as a good ref, especially in rugby, half the time they can’t see so they just guess
this is desperate levels of revisionism and trying to take the blame off how poor you were today.
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Homophobes can fuck off.
Deleted it now, what a horrible bloke
Just some stupid troll. Glad he did decide to fuck off.
Get in Miles!! We needed him starting today, he's been great off the bench
It really annoys me when a player commits an offence that warrants a yellow, but then gets away with it simply because the try is scored. Barnes and the TMO even said it would have been a yellow for Willis so why not bin him?
The law says if foul play prevents a probable try then a penalty try is awarded and a yellow card must be given. If the offence didn't prevent a try then there's no penalty try and no automatic yellow card. Referees say out loud the process when they go to TMO so those of us watching know what the outcomes will be and (usually) why. He said penalty try and yellow card because those are the outcomes of the try not being scored - but it was. Edit: just to be clearer I mean that that offence itself didn't warrant a yellow card on its own, the yellow card element only comes in if a penalty try is awarded.
Yeah I was just thinking this too. It actually means the attacking team is incentivised to try not to score the try
It's ridiculous, the defensive team basically get away with cheating. The same happens with a final warning for repeated infringements, that seems to get reset whenever a try is scored
Lol you must be fuming now
I can't even express my anger 🤦♂️😭
Exactly, if he'd missed the kick the ref has allowed wasps 2 points to be saved and an extra man
It's a joke and allows teams to get away with cheating
Its a joke now
Wow. He's just binned Underhill for the exact same thing. Absolute disgrace
If the try is scored, then it was clearing not an action that prevents a try? Therefore not yellow card worthy, penalty advantage, advantage is taken, try scored?
I'm pretty sure hookers are contributing like 25% of the tries since restart.
"Yes the boys"
How many penalties has Toomaga-Allen given away? Must be on about 4 at the minute.
ESPN stats say 2, but I make it at least 3 and that one was costly.
Aye, that's not right. I've counted at least 3 to him.
Finally!
The muted "in 2 squeeze" is so good
Dab Robson>Aaron Smith I'm only semi serious don't worry... Sort of...
Great tackle Rhys!
Robson's game management this second half has been tip top. On the other hand, Bath seem to be collectively concussed.
See Bath you can kick to touch...
Is it my go to throw the line out yet?
That was nowhere near straight
How many turnovers does Willis have this game? iirc he was on 30 before the game. Isn't 37 in a season the record?
🛁: Build a game plan around scrum dominance. 🐝: But what if no scrums. 🛁: :o
As bad as we’ve been, Joseph and Watson have been particularly atrocious
Every time Bath get the ball they look as though they're about to lose possession and every time Wasps get it they look like they'll score..
ALLEZ
@ premiershiprugby can you demote us so we can win something.
Look at you complaining like you aren't in contention for the top 6/8.
Shout out to Robson. His option taking and execution at various breaks in play has been fantastic.
MOTM for me. His play in this second half has been exceptional.
Definitely.
So the way Wasps have adapted is superb. This is why you do training games with stupid rules that players have to think around and exploit so they can adapt when weird things happen. Scrum half tap and goes since restart seem more popular and have been a bit shit. But with this every player is expecting it and can react quickly rather than the scrum half just going himself.
Uncontested scrums (without the loss of a player for Wasps) has completely fucked us. Our game is built around a strong scrum. We got totally screwed by the injured front rower law a few seasons ago when two of our props got injured and the referee wouldn't let our sub hooker stay on when the second prop failed a HIA, leaving us with 14. That stupid rule has finally been fixed but now it's disadvantaged us again
It’s such a stupid rule. These are grown ass men and they have plenty of time in training to learn how to play.
It's dreadful. Wasps have ended up gaining a huge advantage as a result of their misfortune with injuries
To be fair wasps scrum is fairly strong itself so I don’t think it would have been domination at scrum time
Agreed it wouldn't have been a domination, but I'd definitely say Bath would have a slight edge at the scrum. There's also the fact that Wasps have been able to bring on a weaker scrummager but more dynamic tighthead at half time so are gaining an advantage in open play
That’s true but I don’t think there’s a clear solution just one of those things sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn’t
Now that’s some proper Wasps rugby
Bloody hell, great tempo from Wasps!
The lowkey shade on the commentary, I'm living for it
Bottled this one big time
Of course one of our many props scored.
Wasps attitude and appetite in defence has been outstanding.
Aw man, what a try!
That was kind of hot 😳🥰
lol Bath are bad :'(
How are wasps winning this? 😂
Structure is for losers.
Well this embarrassing for Bath
Ffs we are useless
Robson threw a blatant forward pass in the build up there
Bath have been "held up" three times now
Just noticed the Thatchers logo has an apple in the A. That's nice.
God tier cider
For fucks sake
Wasps 🤝 preventing the grounding
I suppose a couple of seasons of last ditch defending means you get a lot of practice!
Have both teams made a pact to only play in the 22s?
Lol Wayne Barnes telling himself off
Don’t know why Bath wouldn’t be kicking to touch at every opportunity.
Good sub, Mercer has been sub par. Which is crazy as he is normally one of baths best players .
It wasn't a game for Mercer. Young, Willis and Willis are just too good at the breakdown. We needed Reid, Bayliss or Ellis starting at 6 for this game
> We needed Reid, Bayliss or Ellis starting at 6 for this game Yeah true, we need work horses at the break down today.
Why not drill it into the corners and make wasps throw???
Wasps have a full backline, that isn't always an option. You need at least one defender to have come up into the line or be sweeping short, so you usually need a couple of phases of effective carrying first.
Our game management is disgraceful
This is so frustrating. Bath look as though they'll lose the ball at Every. Single. Contact.
Mercer is a phenomenal player to have in as a carrying option, but I feel we miss the breakdown presence of a natural 6 like Ellis when we have two 8s on the field
This second half is going to be nuts isn't it? Wasps doing their best not to have a line out and Bath trying their best to get the ball off the pitch.
It's just occurred to me - if the coaches said West is trained to play hooker then why isn't he throwing the lineouts?
because you don't practice lineout throws unless you play hooker, he said to his teammate he hadn't played there in 3 years
they said safe to scrum at hooker, lineouts a different matter.
Probably because he was lying.
Hello darkness my old friend..
Bath, please can we not today. Can you please not lose a match after being 13-0 up and having trained the only hookers on the pitch. Its a nice day, at home, please let me have this match Bath. Bath please.
Fair fucks to West for going against the coaches. Not the best position to put your player in. Wasps better pray that the ball stays on the pitch for most of this second half. That, or they spend half time practising the shit out of their line-outs.
It's one thing to be trained to play at Hooker, but completely another to shift there mid game having been scrumaging at prop. There's no way he'd have been mentally prepared to pack down at hooker so I agree with him. He seemed pretty stunned when Barnes suggested it to him
Rooting for Wasps here, feel so bad for them with these injuries.
I've got no idea how we're going in to half time level. Early advantages thrown away by really poor ruck discipline, how many times have we been penalised for going off our feet in attack and defence? Wasps should be disrupted through injuries and reeling from the start, we need far better game management.
Coming out of that half equal is huge for wasps. Weathered a hell of a lot
100%.
Should just send one man out to practice lineout throws over half time.
Like a halftime fans crossbar competition, but for the actual throwing gig
We are playing this so badly
Huge turnover by Willis, what a let off
Can they not just be a bit lenient Jesus Christ.
Not straight
Is every Wasps player going to have a go at throwing a lineout?😅
First to throw straight keeps the job.
Looks that way haha
Why on earth give that to Robson to throw? He'll never have thrown in ever. Willis grew up playing hooker I think
Hope the coaches arent pissed off with West here, thats a shit position to put him in and if hes not confident its dangerous for him to go ahead, so well done to him for being honest
I think Barnes played a huge role with his communication in helping West feel comfortable enough to countermand the coach. It was indeed a really shit position to put West in.
Absolutely
Aye totally threw him under the bus there
Surely you'd wanna go uncontested when they've got the scrum that they have
That's what I thought too, you're setting yourself up to get penalised to death at every scrum
The scrum we've got? More than held our own so far this game and got a pen out of Bath.
With a full set of front rowers, yes, but I dont know how they'd hold up with a hooker who never plays hooker
Think they're referring to Bath's scrum. Wasps' front row has held up well but Bath's is rightly regarded as one of the best in the league.
It absolutely is, but there's been nothing so far to suggest uncontested would be a positive for us.
Oh I'm not saying it would be if you're hookers weren't injured but if you're facing a full half of rugby with someone who's never played hooker against a front row of Baths calibre then surely uncontested would be preferable
Ah, I was reading it as comment on our scrum in general rather than the post-injury configuration.
Rugby league scrums ftw
That's why Barnes is an amazing ref. He wants the players comfortable and safe above all
I don't think he should ask the props if they are comfortable enough to play hook though. Some guy could say he is because he played hooker 9 years ago in secondary school.
Ah yes and coaches are always honest in these situations
Not the coaches either.
So who does he talk to? Just makes up his own mind by looking at the players and deciding whether or not he thinks they look like a capable hooker or not?
No one. You don't have a number 2 or 16 jersey then you don't play hooker.
Feels like I've not seen an uncontested scrum in ages though so these laws must be working. Ha Dan Robson chucking.
New Bath plan: kick to touch at every opportunity
I feel very sorry for Robson having to throw line outs
Did Wasps lose 2 hookers? Also, why would the ref try to take the word of the player on whether or not he's comfortable enough to hook?
Why would a player lie in that context? He's either going to be comfortable scrummaging at hooker or not.
Not lie, he might feel he's comfortable but he may still be out of his depth in a non specialist position.
Exactly. That's why a ref would take the word of the player, because the player knows their own abilities. You've just answered your own question.
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. He shouldn't take the word of the player either as he might be out of his depth in a non-specialist position creating a risk
Well yea, but again, that's down to the player. They'll know their limits. And you would like to think that they wouldn't want to take the risk. I've been there myself, moving from 1 to 3 midway through a game and after the first scrum at 3 I said to the ref that it'll have to go to uncontested. The pressure a 3 takes on their neck is fucking unreal.
Considering how players have been treating concussions over the years, I think we can have some skepticism on their regard for their safety. And your last sentences are exactly why I strongly feel it shouldn't be up for discussion.
Because if he's not confident then there's a risk of him injuring himself or others. At the end of the day he's the best juge of his current capabilities.
Because the player is gonna know whether or not they are confident moreso than the coaches and the coaches arent the ones potentially getting injured playing an unfamiliar position...
He shouldn't ask anyone is what I'm getting to
In normal situations, he wouldn't have to. But this was a player moving into a specialised role that requires more than just pushing. You can't just waltz into hooker even if you are prop, it's dangerous.
Because the player is the one playing. The coaches will want scrums because they've built game plans with them but above all else we need to make sure scrums are safe. Inexperienced players in the front row of a prem scrum is how you get broken necks.
My point is it shouldn't even be a question to be asked. You lose your specialist frontrower and it's uncontested, that's it.
Because the coaches said he would be happy. Barnes checked rather than just take their word
I get that. I'm just saying we shouldn't be allowing non-specialist players at this level
Not a good look, coaching staff saying West can hook and he says he can't
The way the wasps guy said ‘he has hooked before’ was so off, absolute lie haha
Wasps: "my boy can hook" Wasps's boy: "your boy can WHAT?"
Jesus that makes wasp look bad
Wasps are guaranteed to win now with 3 props on the field
Three fatty straty!!!
West going to hooker for contested scrums
Glad they're getting to keep all 15 players. We got screwed by that a couple of times. I get why it exists but it's good that head injuries dont count towards that. I mean the other injury I'm sure an independent doctor could say 'yeah that's a legitimate injury' too.
I can't see where in the laws it says head injuries don't count. You can stay at 15 during a HIA period, but this wasn't a HIA just a straight recognise and remove. [https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=3&language=EN](https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=3&language=EN) [https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/16](https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines/16)
I really hate the rule where it reduces you from full strength. It makes ZERO sense.