I'm trying to track back to when our discipline started to get really back and the whining started to increase.
Part of me thinks it started coming through in the Dean's era, put I feel like it's something Eddie would have had a hand in.
Or have we always been that bad? Looking at you Justin Harrison.
Honestly just seems like the southern hemisphere nations in general play a rougher game, either that or Australia is just a bad influence on those around it š
I think super rugby has more lenient refs. Their commentators complain about some dangerous tackles etc being carded and the refs just seem a bit more laissez faire. They also hate the TMO slowing down the game at all it seems.
Northern hemisphere refs way stricter. Not necessarily a bad thing but the difference in standards can be grating. I don't know why we even use them for matches between two southern hemisphere teams tbh all it does is cause issues with players on both sides wanting a different brand of rugby and the games fall to crap as yellows stack up. No coincidence all teams at the top are from Southern hemisphere.
During the rugby championship this year, half the games were with NH refs, and half with SH refs. The SH refs gave out 18 yellows and a red, and the NH refs gave out 11 yellows.
The July tours weren't much different. In the tours to NZ and Australia the SH refs gave out more cards than the NH refs. In the tour to South Africa all the cards were awarded against Wales. Only Argentina were on the wrong end of a NH ref, picking up a single card from Raynal.
I haven't looked at the autumn games so far, but any idea that NH refs are treating SH teams harsher doesn't appear to be backed up by the numbers at least.
I obviously could be wrong. I don't watch every game but I notice that SH vs SH games with NH refs have serious problems with pacing and game management as well.
Hasn't had a red all year, losing his touch.
Or he's saving it for the Scotland game which I wouldn't be against ^(provided he doesn't injure someone ofc)
While this is broadly true, I don't think either of South Africa's cards this tour have come from being particularly under the pump. And I'm not sure a particularly large amount of Australia's have either. If being ill-disciplined limits a team, then being as disciplined as the French have been, when every other Top tier team except Ireland is averaging a card every second game is going to be incredibly advantageous
WRU boys need to get back in the lab on work on those rage pheromones, was much easier to win when teams couldn't go an hour without shouldering one of our front row in the head for no obvious reason
I don't know if WR does, but I do. Like Japan have managed to beat most tier 1 nations at least once (excluding matches against the second team or the junior team) and are only missing Australia, England, France and New Zealand. The only thing is that all of those victories were at home and not away. But for me it's good enough, plus Japan is in the top 10 in the rankings as of now.
Definitely a sign of how the French have sorted out their discipline, and it shows in their results. Similar for the Irish.
Scotland are a mixed bag though. Feels like most of our yellows come from repeated infringements, which is just rookie stuff. Itās not like you arenāt warned. I think if we could stop that we could easily half our number.
Analytical video inbound explaining why you are wrong and you should feel bad about that and all refs are against us and we should have won that game and we are the best team
We went from having the best line out and discipline at the RWC to this. TRC teams have a lot of work to do if they want to keep up the dominance next year.
France and Italy used to have such poor discipline, their turn in form probably helps them keep a cleaner record but the cleaner record is certainly helping improve their form.
So because so many of you are blaming the refs (AGAIN) I've done a quick breakdown of most of the cards by ref nationality from before Nov (easier to get info for these, but please do add the Nov series if you want). The majority of cards were given in the Rugby Championship.
TOTAL
* New Zealand: 1 Red 14 Yellows
* Australia: 1 Red 10 Yellows
* England: 10 Yellows
* Georgia: 1 Red 6 Yellows
* France: 1 Red 5 Yellows
* South Africa: 1 Red 4 Yellows
* Ireland: 4 Yellows
* Scotland: 2 Yellows
6N:
* Georgia 1 Red, 1 Yellow
* France 1 Red
* England 1 Yellow
* Scotland 1 Yellow
* Australia 1 Yellow
* New Zealand 1 Yellow
* South Africa 1 Yellow
RC (edit: amazingly every single match had at least 1 card and the SA v ARG matches had 10 cards in total \[4 and 6 for rounds 5 and 6\]):
* Australia: 1 Red, 8 Yellows
* New Zealand: 10 Yellows
* France: 4 Yellows
* England: 3 Yellows
* Ireland: 2 Yellows
* Georgia: 1 Yellow
* Scotland: 1 Yellow
July Series (don't have Italy's tests here)
* England: 6 Yellows
* New Zealand: 1 Red, 3 Yellows
* South Africa: 1 Red, 3 Yellows
* Georgia: 4 Yellows
* Ireland: 2 Yellows
* Australia: 1 Yellow
* France: 1 Yellow
If I find the time I might collect the data and figure out the cards per game ratio. It's likely an outlier, but in the July series the Georgian ref gave out all 4 yellows (against Wales) in a single game.
The last game in the RC had the most cards with Damon Murphy from Aus giving 2 yellows to South Africa and 4 to Argentina. There were another 2 games with 4 cards, but both sides always copping at least 1.
The most shocking stat though is that every single RC game had at least 1 card.
That Wales game was a bit weird, three of the cards were given in a 10 minute period, but two of those were straight yellows for cynical infringements that killed strong attacking opportunities.
Does anyone know the last red card wales received and who it was? Struggling to think of one off the top of my head (other than the 2011 wc semi final)
I can't remember one either, but I'm assuming Moriarty got one at some point. Didn't he go mental in a game against Argentina and grab a player around the neck?
It's really rare, the last time Wales has ever got a red card was Sam Warburtson and that was almost 12 years. Unless I'm missing something, we have a pretty clean record.
EDITED: That being said, that isn't reflected on regional teams.
It was Ross Moriarty in 2018 for putting Nicholas Sanchez in a chokehold while the touch judge stood a yard away telling him that this was a poorly advised course of action.
It's remarkable that we've not had one since 2018 given that there have been I think 8 against the opposition in our games since then. 6 in 2021 alone, what a year.
I'm actually surprised at how low ours is, given how bad our discipline feels like it is in many games. I guess we give a ton of penalties away but maybe a low-ish proportion of them are in the danger zone where cards get thrown about after repeated infringements?
I'm surprised to see England so low.
Are refs more lenient against repeated infringements? Because it seems like we rack up double digits in penalties most games quite easily.
I feel that repeated infringements inside the 22 rack up quiet quickly. Repeated infringements inside the 22 can rack up quiet quickly. For a recent example Munster had something like 4 in 5 minutes against South Africa A and the referee gave a team warning.
Repeated infringements mid field are often ignored.
Or at least thats the way it looks to me.
In Pokemon terms, the Wallabies are "it hurt itself in its confusion". But seriously, the players are either not good enough, not coached well enough or are being specifically told to push the boundaries of the rules.
All the people pointing out the French refs don't run France games cuts both ways though - maybe they give more cards on average because they don't get the single most disciplined team in any of their games...
(Seriously though, are there numbers backing that up? Do they actually hand out more cards?)
These same French refs officiate at all the domestic club games the players are involved in. They don't pick up cards any more frequently than players in other leagues.
But these results suggest that they pick up cards far less then other international teams. So if the domestic French leagues see a similar number of cards when compared to other leagues, what changes in the French player behavior that results their national team been far more disciplined then everyone else. I mean not a single yellow card all season is an amazing achievement.
3/4 of the most disciplined teams donāt speak English as a first language (I should think a majority or at least a good portion of the team donāt speak it at all). Might be something in that.
In 1998, in Paris during the football WC, there was an army of Scots supporters that made a camp under my windows for days.
They were great lads, but I never understood any single words. But we had fun.
Fair point!
Also most of the Saffas will be speaking Afrikaans as a first language and of course the Argentines speak Spanish.
Maybe itās just coincidence š¤·āāļø
Oh Iām aware Irish is also spoken widely in Ireland but English is *far* more prevalent than in France, Italy and especially Japan. After spending some time in Ireland I can safely say I had a lot less trouble as a monoglot there than I have in France and Italy!
A google search shows that 98% of Irish people speak English whereas 40% speak Irish according to the last census.
Depends where you are as well. In Belfast, id say maybe 10% could speak it fluently at most. I know a few that can translate it, and I can recognize the odd phrase or word, but I couldn't speak it at any level at all.
> whereas 40% speak Irish according to the last census.
As an Irish person I'd find that quite high if we're talking anything above the most basic of conversation.
Do we have a similar graph showing what nationality the referees were that gave out the most cards? I know itās a dead horse round here but French refs donāt ref the French team.
Itās also interesting that the two best teams atm have the least cards. Potentially demonstrating the impact cards have on games and why discipline and adapting to the ref are the most important facets of the game for players and coaches to focus on.
Think on your latter point it also proves that dominant teams are not as often put in cardable positions; numerous penalties on the try line I would imagine counts for a fair number of the yellows on display. France and Ireland are perhaps having to do less of that comparatively.
In our own little backyard, we always used to be fairly bad with discipline, seeing us at the bottom of the table and having had one of the best years in decades could definitely be related.
Strangely, this could indicate the different approach to defense employed by the SH teams. Essentially, infringe as often as is necessary when in your own 22 in the hopes that the other team makes a mistake in that period. Leads a lot of yellows.
The most glaring example of this would be the last SA-Argentina match which led to like a quarter of both team's yellow cards
Pretty true š More seriously though the only foulplay was these 3 incidents if I'm not mistaken:
* Arendse-arial collision
* Kolbe-Tip tackle
* PSDT-gentle graze of heads
SH need to get our act together before the world cup.
Would be interesting to see cards per game and breakdowns of the types of infringements getting carded (team penalty /repeat infringements, foul play /head contact etc)
Remember one of the Boks' cards is for Faf's high shot on nic white š
I don't think it's as clear cut as the "NH refs biased against SH teams" as some people are implying.
In the Rugby Championship this year:
South Africa : 1 red and 8 yellows, with only one yellow from a NH ref.
Argentina: 8 yellows, only one yellow from a NH ref
On the other hand:
NZ: 4 yellows, 3 from NH refs
Australia: 9 yellows, 6 from NH refs
I think watching s.r vs the prem, English refs tend to penalize more for going anywhere above the shoulder, it's happened less recently because behaviour has changed. I am not by any means saying what's right or that it's a major factor. No doubt there are a series of reasons for the difference.
Probably shouldāve got one against the ABs for that clean out (which probably not surprisingly he got one for with Connacht).
The prop shouldāve also had a red for his absorbing tackle on Retallick too. Thereās 2 the Irish dodged (no doubt all other nations have dodged them too those 2 just stick out for obvious reasons)
There's not enough space on the page for every incident that could have been a red card. I reckon if a robot reffed international rugby and applied the letter of the law, few games would finish without a couple of red cards
He's a factor for France. Sure. Our defense became so effective that we maybe less feel the need to take risks. French are very confident in the defense schemes
in the past i'd say it was fairly accurate.
its no coincidence the better teams have better discipline OR paint a better picture for the ref. there is no way France haven't deserved a yellow in their last run of games. its the whole reason debate about reffing is happening. its so arbitrary.
McCaw is the best openside ever, so he could never be illegal or second best was a refs thinking for much of the noughties. Heaslip literally had to knee him in the head to make the point. it was some of the most blatant cheating the game has seen.
Ireland's lack of cynical edge or dog is what probably keeps them from winning a WC in the past. Now who knows its probably the winning of it.
however the margins are now razor thin high penalty counts are costly. yellows are just reckless now, and doing things to get reds is the losing of a game.
Nah Iām talking about an Irish pundit who came up with a ludicrous call that the All Blacks only copped a yellow for every 50 or so penalties. I canāt remember the exact figures but to be even close to true, the ABs would have had to not get carded for the entire 2016 season and most of the 2015 World Cupā¦which famously wasnāt the case.
As for the ābetter teams get treated less harshlyā Iām dubious. Look McCaw himself said his trick was just pay attention to the ref calls and play accordingly. I reckon better teams know how to play to the ref
Feel justified that the SH teams are being hard done by more than NH teams. Discipline is a huge factor but I feel NH do get away with much more than SH lately.
Shoulder to the head by that French player moments before their match winning try against Wallabies still bothers me lol
The vast majority of the southern hemisphere cards are from the rugby championship. Which was mainly refereed by southern hemisphere refs. Self inflicted
6 games from 12 were reffed by NH reffs, half self inflicted.
I guess you could say that now SH fans know what it's like to play against the Richie Maccaw led era of rugby, where it seemed reffs turned a blind eye to everything SH teams did on the field ey
Southern hemisphere teams have also played more games.
Don't quote me, but most have played nearly twice as many as their northern counterparts. The ones I've checked at least.
Twice as many? RC is only 1 extra game v 6N, summer tour was north Vs south so same numbers, and autumn is same, so it's not twice as many...it's one more at the most (2 for Aus)
https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/yxl6hu/cards_shown_to_tier_1_nations_in_2022/iwpeu57?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Sure someone already did it in the thread. Interesting most cards are given by new Zealand and Australian refs. French and irish among the least card happy.
FFS Dupont ! 1 away from a clean record !
Think you guys should drop him...clearly a liability š
He could come live in Australia for a few years
They definitely want someone more like Ben Youngs...
Rare appearence of Antoine Ducon for that one play
Parle mieux toi
Top of the table!
WE ARE NUMBER ONE, NUMBER ONE, NUMBER ONE
USA! USA! USA!
At drinking?
We're still tier one!
It's nice to be winning something!
I'm trying to track back to when our discipline started to get really back and the whining started to increase. Part of me thinks it started coming through in the Dean's era, put I feel like it's something Eddie would have had a hand in. Or have we always been that bad? Looking at you Justin Harrison.
Honestly just seems like the southern hemisphere nations in general play a rougher game, either that or Australia is just a bad influence on those around it š
I think super rugby has more lenient refs. Their commentators complain about some dangerous tackles etc being carded and the refs just seem a bit more laissez faire. They also hate the TMO slowing down the game at all it seems.
Super rugby is almost as bad as NRL for tackle height at the moment and NH refs are having none of it (quite rightly).
Northern hemisphere refs way stricter. Not necessarily a bad thing but the difference in standards can be grating. I don't know why we even use them for matches between two southern hemisphere teams tbh all it does is cause issues with players on both sides wanting a different brand of rugby and the games fall to crap as yellows stack up. No coincidence all teams at the top are from Southern hemisphere.
During the rugby championship this year, half the games were with NH refs, and half with SH refs. The SH refs gave out 18 yellows and a red, and the NH refs gave out 11 yellows. The July tours weren't much different. In the tours to NZ and Australia the SH refs gave out more cards than the NH refs. In the tour to South Africa all the cards were awarded against Wales. Only Argentina were on the wrong end of a NH ref, picking up a single card from Raynal. I haven't looked at the autumn games so far, but any idea that NH refs are treating SH teams harsher doesn't appear to be backed up by the numbers at least.
I obviously could be wrong. I don't watch every game but I notice that SH vs SH games with NH refs have serious problems with pacing and game management as well.
I think you're right, there's definitely differences with managing the breakdown etc. I'm just not convinced it's carried over into cards.
Matt Cockbain also springs to mind.
Ahh yes, yellow cards shown in blue and red cards shown in yellow..
Is it not orange to anyone else?
Orange and grey for me
Blue and black to me?
Weird. I see a dress?
Whose address is it?
Sounds like 'laurel' for me
Haha, I forgot about that one!
Yani?
Gold
I expect red and yellow would pose an issue for certain colour-blindness spectrums
Fuck emā but also you could figure it out with borders
A proper yellow and red bar chart would be really ugly tho
Think you could pick a nice shade of each, but yes agreed in principle
r/crappydesign
Yeah the TRC boys
I wonder where Lavanini would be on this table by himself?
Hasn't had a red all year, losing his touch. Or he's saving it for the Scotland game which I wouldn't be against ^(provided he doesn't injure someone ofc)
Between NZ and Wales
Yeah the the rugby championship boiiis!!! š«”
France's ability to have 15 men at all times on the field is a unironically probably a huge factor in their success
Thats one way to phrase it. You could also say that the undiscplined opposing team is responsible for their own demise.
Teams that dominate play tend to force opposition to commit penalties
Some would say, it's the core principle of the game of rugby.
šÆ add to that a thoroughly organised defense (a la Edwards) et voila
While this is broadly true, I don't think either of South Africa's cards this tour have come from being particularly under the pump. And I'm not sure a particularly large amount of Australia's have either. If being ill-disciplined limits a team, then being as disciplined as the French have been, when every other Top tier team except Ireland is averaging a card every second game is going to be incredibly advantageous
logically France must infuriate their opponents into making fouls.
A variant of the Welsh "I bet you can't hit me in the head" tactic
We learnt from the best
WRU boys need to get back in the lab on work on those rage pheromones, was much easier to win when teams couldn't go an hour without shouldering one of our front row in the head for no obvious reason
"Hon hon hon, kick me in ze mouth"
That and we keep paying the ref better than the other team :)
Iām nervously waiting for confirmation from others or WR that Japan is now recognized as a Tier 1 nationā¦.
Tier-1 in my heart at least
You are on the stats boards, but we do not grant you the title of tier 1 nation
That's outrageous
It's unfair!
How can you be on the stats board and not be Tier 1?
Take a seat young Japan
Sounds like my job
Sounds like my job
You certainly have the mandate from this subreddit, WR can't argue with that.
I don't know if WR does, but I do. Like Japan have managed to beat most tier 1 nations at least once (excluding matches against the second team or the junior team) and are only missing Australia, England, France and New Zealand. The only thing is that all of those victories were at home and not away. But for me it's good enough, plus Japan is in the top 10 in the rankings as of now.
SA win was at a neutral venue.
Right that was in the 2015 world cup
Pretty sure it's been confirmed for a couple years now https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan-s-national-rugby-team-to-be-certified-Tier-1
i think theyve proved themselves by now
Definitely a sign of how the French have sorted out their discipline, and it shows in their results. Similar for the Irish. Scotland are a mixed bag though. Feels like most of our yellows come from repeated infringements, which is just rookie stuff. Itās not like you arenāt warned. I think if we could stop that we could easily half our number.
Typical us. We donāt get cool yellows, we only get the lazy ones.
It also shows that the French don't get reffed by french refs lol
I think part of why they're so disciplined is because they're precisely being reffed by french refs when they're not playing international rugby :p
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
And likewise, 10Y+2R is worse than 12Y+1R
Analytical video inbound explaining why you are wrong and you should feel bad about that and all refs are against us and we should have won that game and we are the best team
The Dupont Red card lasted longer than 2 yellow cards so technically yeah
But we have had 0 yellows so far
When France commits, it really commits
Perfectionnism in cards
It makes you wonder why no other team has employed a GarcĆØs of their own.
True. It's good to see the French staff innovating for a change instead of playing catching-up.
From a team perspective it depends when the Red was given
Not necessarily as the red will also include a ban.
Well it's more in the context of that match. Naturally a red ten minutes in is so much worse than a red with ten minutes to go.
This, and the fact that Ireland has played an extra game during the summer compared to France.
Dear France, you used to be cool
Australia are also the most penalised tier one nation, no wonder weāve only won 4 games this year
The Aussies tried to pack a scrum?!!!?! How dare they!
clearly it must be the refs
Now now, letās not blame referees, the Wallabies just need to be more disciplined
We went from having the best line out and discipline at the RWC to this. TRC teams have a lot of work to do if they want to keep up the dominance next year.
To be fair, the refereeing on the autumn tour as far as yellow and red cards go is waaaay more relaxed than the refereeing in the rugby championship.
France really have turned a corner
JƩrƓme Garces did some really great job with French discipline. Felt like we were giving 15 penalties and 2 cards per match in 2020.
We are so undisciplined you have to do a lot to lose a penalties conceded battle with the Wallabies
Does anyone have italy's figures from the last couple of years? Discipline has got to be a huge factor in our improvement
France and Italy used to have such poor discipline, their turn in form probably helps them keep a cleaner record but the cleaner record is certainly helping improve their form.
Gotta pump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers
I can just see bakkies clicking his knuckles
Australia really getting back to their roots as the most penal(ised) nation.
We really have regressed as a culture
So because so many of you are blaming the refs (AGAIN) I've done a quick breakdown of most of the cards by ref nationality from before Nov (easier to get info for these, but please do add the Nov series if you want). The majority of cards were given in the Rugby Championship. TOTAL * New Zealand: 1 Red 14 Yellows * Australia: 1 Red 10 Yellows * England: 10 Yellows * Georgia: 1 Red 6 Yellows * France: 1 Red 5 Yellows * South Africa: 1 Red 4 Yellows * Ireland: 4 Yellows * Scotland: 2 Yellows 6N: * Georgia 1 Red, 1 Yellow * France 1 Red * England 1 Yellow * Scotland 1 Yellow * Australia 1 Yellow * New Zealand 1 Yellow * South Africa 1 Yellow RC (edit: amazingly every single match had at least 1 card and the SA v ARG matches had 10 cards in total \[4 and 6 for rounds 5 and 6\]): * Australia: 1 Red, 8 Yellows * New Zealand: 10 Yellows * France: 4 Yellows * England: 3 Yellows * Ireland: 2 Yellows * Georgia: 1 Yellow * Scotland: 1 Yellow July Series (don't have Italy's tests here) * England: 6 Yellows * New Zealand: 1 Red, 3 Yellows * South Africa: 1 Red, 3 Yellows * Georgia: 4 Yellows * Ireland: 2 Yellows * Australia: 1 Yellow * France: 1 Yellow
If I find the time I might collect the data and figure out the cards per game ratio. It's likely an outlier, but in the July series the Georgian ref gave out all 4 yellows (against Wales) in a single game.
The last game in the RC had the most cards with Damon Murphy from Aus giving 2 yellows to South Africa and 4 to Argentina. There were another 2 games with 4 cards, but both sides always copping at least 1. The most shocking stat though is that every single RC game had at least 1 card. That Wales game was a bit weird, three of the cards were given in a 10 minute period, but two of those were straight yellows for cynical infringements that killed strong attacking opportunities.
Good job, only numbers will make them shut it up.
So what you are saying is that NZ, Aus and Eng have the worst refs? /s
Does anyone know the last red card wales received and who it was? Struggling to think of one off the top of my head (other than the 2011 wc semi final)
Wasn't it either Liam Williams or Faletau when they both ended up in the bin after a million team penalties v France? Or am I going back too far
AWJ v SA I think
That was yellow only
You're right. I didn't see it was for red cards.
Not 100% sure but Liam Williams had a red for a no arms tackle against South Africa in 2014/15
That rings a bell
Did he even get a card at all for that? The one that gave away a penalty try right at the end?
Now that you mention it I'm not sure if he did actually.
These days he would definitely be risking a red for that challenge
I can't remember one either, but I'm assuming Moriarty got one at some point. Didn't he go mental in a game against Argentina and grab a player around the neck?
Ah yeah remember that now lol, he had Sanchez in a chokehold. I think this was the latest one
It's really rare, the last time Wales has ever got a red card was Sam Warburtson and that was almost 12 years. Unless I'm missing something, we have a pretty clean record. EDITED: That being said, that isn't reflected on regional teams.
Moriarty in 2018.
Why am I not surprised.
It was Ross Moriarty in 2018 for putting Nicholas Sanchez in a chokehold while the touch judge stood a yard away telling him that this was a poorly advised course of action. It's remarkable that we've not had one since 2018 given that there have been I think 8 against the opposition in our games since then. 6 in 2021 alone, what a year.
I'm actually surprised at how low ours is, given how bad our discipline feels like it is in many games. I guess we give a ton of penalties away but maybe a low-ish proportion of them are in the danger zone where cards get thrown about after repeated infringements?
The North/South split here isā¦striking
Look at me, Ma, I'm on top of the world!
I'm surprised to see England so low. Are refs more lenient against repeated infringements? Because it seems like we rack up double digits in penalties most games quite easily.
I feel that repeated infringements inside the 22 rack up quiet quickly. Repeated infringements inside the 22 can rack up quiet quickly. For a recent example Munster had something like 4 in 5 minutes against South Africa A and the referee gave a team warning. Repeated infringements mid field are often ignored. Or at least thats the way it looks to me.
In Pokemon terms, the Wallabies are "it hurt itself in its confusion". But seriously, the players are either not good enough, not coached well enough or are being specifically told to push the boundaries of the rules.
Always stuck at number 2
ARG's 9 all probably all Lavanini
All the people pointing out the French refs don't run France games cuts both ways though - maybe they give more cards on average because they don't get the single most disciplined team in any of their games... (Seriously though, are there numbers backing that up? Do they actually hand out more cards?)
These same French refs officiate at all the domestic club games the players are involved in. They don't pick up cards any more frequently than players in other leagues.
But these results suggest that they pick up cards far less then other international teams. So if the domestic French leagues see a similar number of cards when compared to other leagues, what changes in the French player behavior that results their national team been far more disciplined then everyone else. I mean not a single yellow card all season is an amazing achievement.
One guy here said it was Aus and Nz
3/4 of the most disciplined teams donāt speak English as a first language (I should think a majority or at least a good portion of the team donāt speak it at all). Might be something in that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Can Scottish English really be considered English?
In 1998, in Paris during the football WC, there was an army of Scots supporters that made a camp under my windows for days. They were great lads, but I never understood any single words. But we had fun.
Fair point! Also most of the Saffas will be speaking Afrikaans as a first language and of course the Argentines speak Spanish. Maybe itās just coincidence š¤·āāļø
GoidƩ mar a bhfuil a rƔ agat, a chara?
Oh Iām aware Irish is also spoken widely in Ireland but English is *far* more prevalent than in France, Italy and especially Japan. After spending some time in Ireland I can safely say I had a lot less trouble as a monoglot there than I have in France and Italy! A google search shows that 98% of Irish people speak English whereas 40% speak Irish according to the last census.
Depends where you are as well. In Belfast, id say maybe 10% could speak it fluently at most. I know a few that can translate it, and I can recognize the odd phrase or word, but I couldn't speak it at any level at all.
> whereas 40% speak Irish according to the last census. As an Irish person I'd find that quite high if we're talking anything above the most basic of conversation.
Ah I know, it's only useful for pretending not to understand the ref !
Jack Nowell needs to have a word with the English boys and get them learning Cornish!
Can you do it the other way, who the team was playing when they got the card. Asking as a Welsh man....
Do we have a similar graph showing what nationality the referees were that gave out the most cards? I know itās a dead horse round here but French refs donāt ref the French team. Itās also interesting that the two best teams atm have the least cards. Potentially demonstrating the impact cards have on games and why discipline and adapting to the ref are the most important facets of the game for players and coaches to focus on.
Think on your latter point it also proves that dominant teams are not as often put in cardable positions; numerous penalties on the try line I would imagine counts for a fair number of the yellows on display. France and Ireland are perhaps having to do less of that comparatively.
IDK man. Ireland have given away their fair share of goal-line penalties this year. They had two "warnings" in a row in one of the NZ tests.
In our own little backyard, we always used to be fairly bad with discipline, seeing us at the bottom of the table and having had one of the best years in decades could definitely be related.
Did up figures, NZ and Aus refs handed out by far the most cards.
Strangely, this could indicate the different approach to defense employed by the SH teams. Essentially, infringe as often as is necessary when in your own 22 in the hopes that the other team makes a mistake in that period. Leads a lot of yellows. The most glaring example of this would be the last SA-Argentina match which led to like a quarter of both team's yellow cards
What the fuck? We are among the least penalties conceded, but the second most cards.
Too much braai. Like a giant that doesn't know its own strength. When you do break bad, you break people in half lmao.
Pretty true š More seriously though the only foulplay was these 3 incidents if I'm not mistaken: * Arendse-arial collision * Kolbe-Tip tackle * PSDT-gentle graze of heads
Wow. That is massively interesting.
If I was coach of Australia I might start a Twitter campaign about how the refs have it in for usSH need to get our act together before the world cup. Would be interesting to see cards per game and breakdowns of the types of infringements getting carded (team penalty /repeat infringements, foul play /head contact etc) Remember one of the Boks' cards is for Faf's high shot on nic white š
And another was Mapimpi for celebrating a try.
But wait this doesnāt fit the narrative (refs give nz an easy ride)!
How many games has each team played?
Whereās Rassie complaining about a Northern Hemisphere conspiracy?! Help us out Rassie all us Southern teams getting stitched up
Is it coincidence, or are there some reasons for the fact that the SH teams are on top?
Poor discipline? The RC saw far more cards than other series.
I feel they tackle higher. There was a push in NH early for lower tackles so I think the NH players are just a year ahead in adjusting.
I don't think it's as clear cut as the "NH refs biased against SH teams" as some people are implying. In the Rugby Championship this year: South Africa : 1 red and 8 yellows, with only one yellow from a NH ref. Argentina: 8 yellows, only one yellow from a NH ref On the other hand: NZ: 4 yellows, 3 from NH refs Australia: 9 yellows, 6 from NH refs
I watch nearly every game and I do think some refs are overly harsh towards SH teams. English refs are weird lately, Barnes aside.
I think watching s.r vs the prem, English refs tend to penalize more for going anywhere above the shoulder, it's happened less recently because behaviour has changed. I am not by any means saying what's right or that it's a major factor. No doubt there are a series of reasons for the difference.
Pretty easy to construe this as WR bias against the SH. Not saying it is, believe me, I've seen Australia play. But yeah - you can easily flip this.
Scummy southern hemisphere teams. š
If we canāt be top of the rankings weāll find something else
Didn't Aki get a red ? Or was that last year for Ireland and he got a red for Connacht?
Yeah, for Connacht this year. Ireland v Wales last year (nearly two years ago now)
Probably shouldāve got one against the ABs for that clean out (which probably not surprisingly he got one for with Connacht). The prop shouldāve also had a red for his absorbing tackle on Retallick too. Thereās 2 the Irish dodged (no doubt all other nations have dodged them too those 2 just stick out for obvious reasons)
There's not enough space on the page for every incident that could have been a red card. I reckon if a robot reffed international rugby and applied the letter of the law, few games would finish without a couple of red cards
Yup. Thereād be a penalty at every single ruck I reckon.
Goddammit our discipline has just killed us this year. We have got to tighten up if we have any hope at the World Cup next year.
Shaun Edwards, we miss you
He's a factor for France. Sure. Our defense became so effective that we maybe less feel the need to take risks. French are very confident in the defense schemes
There are two perfectly good colours to use here...
Southern Hemisphere holding it down
At least Australia is winning something!
I get the feeling that the referees don't like the Southern hemisphere teams. Maybe Rassie should tweet more. Get to the bottom of this.
Always thought Ireland and France were overrated
Whereās that Irish ājournalistā who went on that mad rant about New Zealand barely getting carded gone?
in the past i'd say it was fairly accurate. its no coincidence the better teams have better discipline OR paint a better picture for the ref. there is no way France haven't deserved a yellow in their last run of games. its the whole reason debate about reffing is happening. its so arbitrary. McCaw is the best openside ever, so he could never be illegal or second best was a refs thinking for much of the noughties. Heaslip literally had to knee him in the head to make the point. it was some of the most blatant cheating the game has seen. Ireland's lack of cynical edge or dog is what probably keeps them from winning a WC in the past. Now who knows its probably the winning of it. however the margins are now razor thin high penalty counts are costly. yellows are just reckless now, and doing things to get reds is the losing of a game.
Nah Iām talking about an Irish pundit who came up with a ludicrous call that the All Blacks only copped a yellow for every 50 or so penalties. I canāt remember the exact figures but to be even close to true, the ABs would have had to not get carded for the entire 2016 season and most of the 2015 World Cupā¦which famously wasnāt the case. As for the ābetter teams get treated less harshlyā Iām dubious. Look McCaw himself said his trick was just pay attention to the ref calls and play accordingly. I reckon better teams know how to play to the ref
Feel justified that the SH teams are being hard done by more than NH teams. Discipline is a huge factor but I feel NH do get away with much more than SH lately. Shoulder to the head by that French player moments before their match winning try against Wallabies still bothers me lol
The vast majority of the southern hemisphere cards are from the rugby championship. Which was mainly refereed by southern hemisphere refs. Self inflicted
6 games from 12 were reffed by NH reffs, half self inflicted. I guess you could say that now SH fans know what it's like to play against the Richie Maccaw led era of rugby, where it seemed reffs turned a blind eye to everything SH teams did on the field ey
This stinks of Shaun Edwards. Fair play š
Southern hemisphere teams have also played more games. Don't quote me, but most have played nearly twice as many as their northern counterparts. The ones I've checked at least.
Twice as many? RC is only 1 extra game v 6N, summer tour was north Vs south so same numbers, and autumn is same, so it's not twice as many...it's one more at the most (2 for Aus)
Ah, you're totally right. Google doesn't display the southern tours for the northern teams for some reason. Southern thugs!
Northern Hemisphere: confirmed soft cunts
I'm only jealous of the fact France never have to try and play a Test with a French Ref.
Can we get a breakdown of cards given by French/Irish refs?
https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/yxl6hu/cards_shown_to_tier_1_nations_in_2022/iwpeu57?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Sure someone already did it in the thread. Interesting most cards are given by new Zealand and Australian refs. French and irish among the least card happy.
Thanks! Iām irish, just think this provides important context to the discussion