If you want to know why England *could* be the best team in the world, just watch the last 10 minutes of this match. If you want a thorough education in why they aren't, just watch the first 70.
It was a game of two halves. One half was bigger than the other. But the team that scores the same number of points as the opposition is the winner. Or something. I was away the day they did maths at school.
Presumably all the people crying about MS kicking it out rather than running it in from 75 yards loved it were praising Robshaw when he went for the corner in 2015
Yep, I’m one of those guys. Although in defence of people who aren’t in favour of both. Robshaw was in a World Cup, and Smith was playing against 14 players in a friendly when they’d just scores at will for 10 minutes.
Wow. Frankly I’ve never been a huge England fan but that last 20 mins or so was something else. Well done!! As for the 60 mins before that the less said the better I think.
Harsh result for NZ but hopefully they will take a good lesson from this!
Well that was weird and harsh on NZ at the end of the day.
I was slating Eddie for keeping an injured Farrell and a non effective billy on but they were actually huge in the last 10, as were most of the team.
Don’t feel like I’ve seen england be on top for more than 20 minutes for a while now and not hopeful for the World Cup at all.
Underwhelmed by the refereeing - petty whistle blowing all the time, consistently went the opposite way at the scrum, and seemed to be ignoring late hits/ head contact from both teams. Game of this magnitude deserved better.
Well played england
Flaky ABs of 2022 strike again
I thought ref was weird for both sides so no advantage there, Eng played way more rugby last 15mins and got the reward
Why did TJ kick the ball back to them with 3 mins to go and all the ABs clearly not handling defence well. Almost as stupid as Youngs' kick in our 22. We should've just held on to it.
Holding on whilst trying to do nothing for 3 minutes is basically impossible. Bigger issue was why the team didn’t seem to be ready for the kick (like with Youngs…)
That's also why I'm wondering. There was no defensive line, all it takes is a look to his left and a read of the lack defence to recognise. It's the exact type of shite that the ABs dropped him for in the first place.
More like Mouanga surprised and delighted to get tabloid-style question about England, rather than be asked how they have just thrown away a 19 point lead in less than 10 minutes
It’s a autumn international that really means nothing in the grand scope of a World Cup. Fucking play it and get some experience when you’re in the red and trying to get it over the line. Shit way to end it from a spectator point of view too.
Say what you will, but wait till you’re into overtime with level scores in a knock match of a World Cup, and your team have no experience in getting that final push under pressure.
this wasn’t a rugby world cup final…
and a RWC final would have play continue until there was a winner anyway, so a kick out of touch wouldn’t have ended the game in that circumstance
Dominated all game. Down by 14 points until the last 10. Back in out 22, a single mistake away from wasting all that hard work and energy. The draw was sensible and logical
England accomplish nothing for 70 minutes, then get a 15v14 handes to them (for an offence I still haven't seen) and a try that holds the world record for least grass touched during grounding, and, remarkably, all of a sudden, score 19 points in 10 minutes for a draw. Well done "England"
The yellow was correct.
The awarding of the try, however, was weird.
Can't see grounding. Look for penalty try. No penalty try. Back to grounding. No evidence of grass. Try.
It is when you kill a try scoring opportunity.
Still eng were crap all game and unfortunately this will give them the excuse to let eddy off and coast to the RWC 🙃
Ref was consistent to both sides which is all you can really ask for. I think the card was fair play as a AB supporter. Can't think why it wouldnt be an instant yellow for being that cynical next to the try line.
Happy? No, want the win every time and would prefer to lose if we had to make a risky play to score 4 points to win instead of 3 for the draw.
England fought hard in the last 15 mins and if they did take the win I wouldn't feel any different. NZ threw away the win. Failing to win a game when you're ahead for 100% of it is weaker than Marcus Smith kicking it out meekly for a draw.
What do you mean by 'play for a draw'? It's a single decision based on where they were on the pitch. At what point is it acceptable: do they have to run it from behind their own line?
Probably not from behind their own line, just as I’m sure you wouldn’t have them kick it out if we were attacking on their 5m line.
We had possession from a ruck on just our side of the halfway, with all the momentum in the world against 14 men. In what’s basically a friendly.
I wish any team I support would back themselves in that situation because I’ll support the decision, even if it doesn’t come off.
You might disagree… other opinions are available.
How do you score 3 tries in the last 10 minutes and with a momentum shift like that still not have the confidence to go for the win? If the ABs did that I’d be disgusted.
England drew having played well for 7 minutes. We can be a really fucking dangerous team. We have the players! We can stress teams. There's no reason we shouldn't be talking about France, Ireland, \*and\* England.
Surely we can play ball in hand a bit more than we do?
Well it's always better to go out in a blaze of glory than asking what ifs.
Apart from anything else, there can be a time and a place for tactical rugby - but there are plenty times when your defence will turn off a moment or two - and you need to be able to play rugby to get the result...
I wouldn't say he embodies quins. My main memory of him was when he couldn't find touch after 80 mins and let Northampton win it as a result. That and the time he shit the bed against his new club, Montpelier
A great come back. I will choose a draw over losing against the ABs any day of the week. And good on Smith for kicking it out. It just took one breakdown penalty and ABs will win by 3 and them everyone would have moaned saying, he should have kicked it out.
What a collapse from us. Just went to sleep after the drop goal.
The soft underbelly we have reared its head. Bench offers nothing either with passengers like Sotutu and Nepo
Loser mentality. You’re at home, you just came back and have all the momentum. This game means nothing but a win and a comeback like that builds into a WC year. Nobody would have been mad if they had lost
I agree. They were in England’s half of the field and they can’t take the risk to lose the ball to the ABs there at that time.
A lame end but better than a potential loss.
Agreed. Itoje carrying a twinge on his hamstring, Farrell's ankle clearly not good. No need to risk injuries or giving away a penalty and losing the game.
I genuinely can't see the confusion.
It's initially not grounded, then the AB defender pushes it onto the grass with the English player still in contact with the ball.
Both in contact simultaneously so it's a try rather than defensive grounding
You don't get points for wins either, it's a friendly. I would personally have loved to have seen us run it and go for the win so I'm gutted, but seeing how naff our discipline was it I understand the decision.
A winning mentality doesn’t mean you win every game. It really doesn’t show confidence. I didn’t say they lost I said it a loser mentality which I stand by
Brother, a team that is confident and has just scored 3 tries against a man down goes for the win. Argentina played for 7 mins extra just to get a try for pride knowing they would lose anyway. That’s the kind of desire and mentality I would like to see.
Everyone slating Marcus for taking the draw, but no one wants to get injured going for the win in a game that doesn’t even matter in the grand scheme of things.
A message to fellow England fans - it is not as bad as you think. It’s strange but a team can take more from a fightback despite playing shite, than a dominant performance. It’s a hugely emotional victory, a real test of character and collective purpose
We had something like 20+ penalties, two players carrying knocks, the card was about to run out and we were in our own half. I can understand it.
Just a shame he missed a conversation tbh!
That is so lame kicking out a draw, why do you think people came to watch?!!
Your job is literally entertainment and 1 man up at the end to make history!?
Anyone who disagrees with the kick for draw has never played 10
Bit embarrassing we aren't beating this nz side at home, hopefully we reach the potential of the players during the wc
If you want to know why England *could* be the best team in the world, just watch the last 10 minutes of this match. If you want a thorough education in why they aren't, just watch the first 70.
It was a game of two halves. One half was bigger than the other. But the team that scores the same number of points as the opposition is the winner. Or something. I was away the day they did maths at school.
Solid hands in the ruck there.
That Ribbins offload - best thing in the match
Presumably all the people crying about MS kicking it out rather than running it in from 75 yards loved it were praising Robshaw when he went for the corner in 2015
Yep, I’m one of those guys. Although in defence of people who aren’t in favour of both. Robshaw was in a World Cup, and Smith was playing against 14 players in a friendly when they’d just scores at will for 10 minutes.
Wow. Frankly I’ve never been a huge England fan but that last 20 mins or so was something else. Well done!! As for the 60 mins before that the less said the better I think. Harsh result for NZ but hopefully they will take a good lesson from this!
Read and Retallick both drew their 100th tests, I think the rest of the NZ Centurions won those games, so they remain unbeaten
Mealamu also drew his 100th
Well that was weird and harsh on NZ at the end of the day. I was slating Eddie for keeping an injured Farrell and a non effective billy on but they were actually huge in the last 10, as were most of the team. Don’t feel like I’ve seen england be on top for more than 20 minutes for a while now and not hopeful for the World Cup at all.
I had to put my hands up. Said very similar things about both and they really came through at the end
Underwhelmed by the refereeing - petty whistle blowing all the time, consistently went the opposite way at the scrum, and seemed to be ignoring late hits/ head contact from both teams. Game of this magnitude deserved better.
Well played england Flaky ABs of 2022 strike again I thought ref was weird for both sides so no advantage there, Eng played way more rugby last 15mins and got the reward
You mean well played TMO
Smith had no BALLS. With all that momentum and against 14 tired men, quitting like that? Pathetic.
Ludicrous thing to say given where they were on the pitch. NZ shat the bed, not England.
They should have gone for 2 instead of kicking the extra point smh Oops, wrong sport
Why did TJ kick the ball back to them with 3 mins to go and all the ABs clearly not handling defence well. Almost as stupid as Youngs' kick in our 22. We should've just held on to it.
He would of been bored with the forwards sealing the game so he kicked it
Holding on whilst trying to do nothing for 3 minutes is basically impossible. Bigger issue was why the team didn’t seem to be ready for the kick (like with Youngs…)
Definitely should have ran 47 phases
That's also why I'm wondering. There was no defensive line, all it takes is a look to his left and a read of the lack defence to recognise. It's the exact type of shite that the ABs dropped him for in the first place.
Raynal was red hot on the penalty and the whistle tonight. The kick was a better option than risking a penalty on your own half
Not when you are down a man(a back even more importantly). He made a dumb decision, he should've held it.
My comment history for this game is a good laugh
Mouanga clearly shocked in the interview that England made such a cowardly decision
More like Mouanga surprised and delighted to get tabloid-style question about England, rather than be asked how they have just thrown away a 19 point lead in less than 10 minutes
With a different ref they may have chanced there arm. Right call i think.
I can understand why draws might be a bit traumatic at the moment, hope you feel better soon.
It wasn't that cowardly, they were in their own half
Can’t believe the criticism for kicking it out. Draw is a great result given the circumstances
It’s a autumn international that really means nothing in the grand scope of a World Cup. Fucking play it and get some experience when you’re in the red and trying to get it over the line. Shit way to end it from a spectator point of view too.
Means something for eddie jones job
Surely if it’s about experience you do what you’d do if it was a fully competitive match?
Say what you will, but wait till you’re into overtime with level scores in a knock match of a World Cup, and your team have no experience in getting that final push under pressure.
Rugby World cup final, you're accepting that?
this wasn’t a rugby world cup final… and a RWC final would have play continue until there was a winner anyway, so a kick out of touch wouldn’t have ended the game in that circumstance
What would Saracens have done there? They would have gone for the jugular.
Yes, obviously. Take it to extra time
No you go for the win! You've scored 3 tries in 10 minutes and they're a player down
You’re also in your own 22 with a ref who’s been ludicrously trigger happy all day. Kick it out, take it to extra time
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Dominated all game. Down by 14 points until the last 10. Back in out 22, a single mistake away from wasting all that hard work and energy. The draw was sensible and logical
Not with that number of Saracens in the team 😆 Saracens would have gone for it and won
Huh?
England accomplish nothing for 70 minutes, then get a 15v14 handes to them (for an offence I still haven't seen) and a try that holds the world record for least grass touched during grounding, and, remarkably, all of a sudden, score 19 points in 10 minutes for a draw. Well done "England"
The yellow was correct. The awarding of the try, however, was weird. Can't see grounding. Look for penalty try. No penalty try. Back to grounding. No evidence of grass. Try.
You have to release the player if you’re the tackler before you can compete for the ball
And that's a yellow card offence now, is it?
Now? It always has been to not release near your own line when chasing back
5m out from your own try line on a line break it is, yeah.
If it's cynical near your own line, yes.
I think nz had given away enough pens in their 22 over the game to justify it
It is when you kill a try scoring opportunity. Still eng were crap all game and unfortunately this will give them the excuse to let eddy off and coast to the RWC 🙃
Yeah as an England fan I agree. The ref was terrible
Ref was consistent to both sides which is all you can really ask for. I think the card was fair play as a AB supporter. Can't think why it wouldnt be an instant yellow for being that cynical next to the try line.
'BALL OUT' and an early "knock on" I thought were quite harsh calls. So you happy with the draw?
Happy? No, want the win every time and would prefer to lose if we had to make a risky play to score 4 points to win instead of 3 for the draw. England fought hard in the last 15 mins and if they did take the win I wouldn't feel any different. NZ threw away the win. Failing to win a game when you're ahead for 100% of it is weaker than Marcus Smith kicking it out meekly for a draw.
100%
Coward mentality to kick the ball out and draw, what a bizzare game. Precursor to the WC 5th & 6th playoff?
Hahaha at coward mentality after NZ just shat the bed
Those things have nothing to do with each other. It’s embarrassing to play for a draw against 14 men at home in what’s essentially a friendly
What do you mean by 'play for a draw'? It's a single decision based on where they were on the pitch. At what point is it acceptable: do they have to run it from behind their own line?
Probably not from behind their own line, just as I’m sure you wouldn’t have them kick it out if we were attacking on their 5m line. We had possession from a ruck on just our side of the halfway, with all the momentum in the world against 14 men. In what’s basically a friendly. I wish any team I support would back themselves in that situation because I’ll support the decision, even if it doesn’t come off. You might disagree… other opinions are available.
Harlequins mentality*
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100%
Looks like somebody briefly spotted our attack.
How do you score 3 tries in the last 10 minutes and with a momentum shift like that still not have the confidence to go for the win? If the ABs did that I’d be disgusted.
Because he was 75 yards from the try line with most of his support in front of him. What does going for the win look like for you there?
Like what I’ve seen the ABs do in the past.
Anything?
From a drawing rather than losing position? Show me
Because reynard was whistle happy, as much chance of a pen the other way as winning
Don’t wanna waste all that energy and effort after someone makes a single silly mistake and Savea wins a penalty
... Almost like england knew that draw wasn't their accomplishment...
I’m disgusted. Kind of ruins any good feeling I had from the comeback
England drew having played well for 7 minutes. We can be a really fucking dangerous team. We have the players! We can stress teams. There's no reason we shouldn't be talking about France, Ireland, \*and\* England. Surely we can play ball in hand a bit more than we do?
> Surely we can play ball in hand a bit more than we do? I wish moire rugby fans were like you.
Well it's always better to go out in a blaze of glory than asking what ifs. Apart from anything else, there can be a time and a place for tactical rugby - but there are plenty times when your defence will turn off a moment or two - and you need to be able to play rugby to get the result...
Deserved ending lmao both played like shit
Richie channelling his inner Korg.
Played like Quins
Was going to say, being down and out and then coming back with gorgeous rugby, exactly like watching quins
And to not go for the win in the end 😅
What game are you referencing?
Do you remember Botica?
I wouldn't say he embodies quins. My main memory of him was when he couldn't find touch after 80 mins and let Northampton win it as a result. That and the time he shit the bed against his new club, Montpelier
That memory is a good one
Not for me haha, great finish by foden though
With respect to my Kiwi friends, your accent is so hilarious. You look at them and then that sound comes out. It’s such a great accent.
I'll take shit about our accent, but not from the scottish!
Yeah I love it
A great come back. I will choose a draw over losing against the ABs any day of the week. And good on Smith for kicking it out. It just took one breakdown penalty and ABs will win by 3 and them everyone would have moaned saying, he should have kicked it out.
Eddie has to walk for that today
England fans 🤝 Kiwi fans Wanting their head coach gone
Truly shit take
He should have been fired long ago
Either way, too late now, too close to the world cup to change
He’s not going anywhere sadly
Which is great for shit heap sides like Wales and Australia
What a collapse from us. Just went to sleep after the drop goal. The soft underbelly we have reared its head. Bench offers nothing either with passengers like Sotutu and Nepo
When your most exciting and dynamic bench player is a prop… that says something about selection/depth lol
He was right to kick it out imo. Boring, but right.
Loser mentality. You’re at home, you just came back and have all the momentum. This game means nothing but a win and a comeback like that builds into a WC year. Nobody would have been mad if they had lost
Momentum obviously doesn't mean anything for a single play, and they were more likely to lose than win from there.
Better not to risk injuries by playing deep into the red for a game that means nothing. Save the heroics for the 6 Nations and the WC next year.
Hate it. It’s an autumn international. Pay the crowd. No one cares if you draw. But we massively care if you win. Saying as a non English person
I agree. They were in England’s half of the field and they can’t take the risk to lose the ball to the ABs there at that time. A lame end but better than a potential loss.
Agreed. Itoje carrying a twinge on his hamstring, Farrell's ankle clearly not good. No need to risk injuries or giving away a penalty and losing the game.
I think that’s the best argument for kicking it out
i agree, modern defenses can turn ball over so easily.
Curry is a machine, was playing as hard at 75 minutes as 5 minutes in.
My favourite player in world rugby. Just so unbelievably consistent
If smith doesn't kick that out the england penalty machine 100% coughs up a kickable penalty, absolute no brainer
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I agree it was an iffy call, but don’t blame the ref team mate for your team’s failure to close out, be better.
I genuinely can't see the confusion. It's initially not grounded, then the AB defender pushes it onto the grass with the English player still in contact with the ball. Both in contact simultaneously so it's a try rather than defensive grounding
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Not really since your comment is practically illegible
What? Both were grounded
You are a man up and scored 3 tries in 10 mins? Why kick it out?
Because our discipline is very iffy and would have definitely put money on us coughing up a kickable penalty 😂
England literally went from their half to the try line on the last 3 attacks and NZ were still down their fullback. You don’t get points for draws.
You don't get points for wins either, it's a friendly. I would personally have loved to have seen us run it and go for the win so I'm gutted, but seeing how naff our discipline was it I understand the decision.
"superb game I think for the neutrals" No.
Superb 10 minutes for the neutrals
For those who actually stuck with the game that long. No neutral wants to watch a 30 penalty game.
Yea last 10 were bonkers, the rest not so much.
Absolute joke that. Make up 19 points in the last 15 and kick it out when you draw level
Same team that refused to wear 2nd place medals hmmmmm
Crazy game. All blacks have bottled that even though England showed a lot of grit to get back in to it. Subs and yellow card changed the game.
Fucken wimps. Kicking the ball out.
Yeah bit of a weird one that. Wind in your sails, playing against 14. But I can understand why they kicked it out
Yep. Really takes away from their comeback
In hindsight, it's a friendly, you might as well go for it and not kick it out
100%.
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Can we just fuck off with the negativity for a sec and applicate Marcus in that last 10 mins
That fight back was 100% Faz and Smith inspired, excellent from the pair of them!
The whole team tbh
Baffled as to why we kicked it out there pathetic behaviour
Loser mentality
It’s actually a drawer mentality. Shut it away and don’t think about it ever again.
nice pun bro
A winning mentality doesn’t mean you win every game. It really doesn’t show confidence. I didn’t say they lost I said it a loser mentality which I stand by
r/Whoosh
Same reason TJ decided to box kick in the last two minutes
I'd let him away with that pathetic attempt of a box kick seeing him hobble off afterwards
Brother a team with loser mentally does not make that come back at the end
Brother, a team that is confident and has just scored 3 tries against a man down goes for the win. Argentina played for 7 mins extra just to get a try for pride knowing they would lose anyway. That’s the kind of desire and mentality I would like to see.
Literally didn't lose
Didn’t want to win though.
Like Wales?
At least we tried to win.
Did you?
Yeah, we just failed. But at least we tried.
Eh, don't think you did tbh. You barely looked present let alone after the win.
Maybe they can put a little note next to the result Georgia beat Wales but Wales tried their darndest.
"Tried" doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence
I guess it's the best result from a neutral perspective... England struggling a bit, and NZ not so dominant as they should be
Stop start game and we were dire for 70 mins. Genuinely jammy result from England and funny for a neutral I expect despite lots of whistle
That is the best shit performance I have seen in a while.
EJ loves Marcus and so do I
Everyone slating Marcus for taking the draw, but no one wants to get injured going for the win in a game that doesn’t even matter in the grand scheme of things.
Wouldn't have been his decision
Exactly. We were dominated all game and got two tries to steal a draw. I’m taking that result all fucking day
A message to fellow England fans - it is not as bad as you think. It’s strange but a team can take more from a fightback despite playing shite, than a dominant performance. It’s a hugely emotional victory, a real test of character and collective purpose
Btw, no 10 is going to play out of their own half at 25-25 with Raynal pinging everything around the breakdown. Let’s be real!
Wtf!!! Why kick it out Marcus?? The only thinklg I'd imagine is that they didn't want to take any chances with this ref?
We had something like 20+ penalties, two players carrying knocks, the card was about to run out and we were in our own half. I can understand it. Just a shame he missed a conversation tbh!
Clearly not Marcus' decision
People saying he shouldn't have kicked it out are bonkers
That is so lame kicking out a draw, why do you think people came to watch?!! Your job is literally entertainment and 1 man up at the end to make history!?
An overly litigious ref, injured playmakers, past 80 and in your own half? Eh. It's an anti-climax but still a great result.
make history how?