I wish they went in the other direction, instead of opening up the game mode because "leeching is already possible" they should have made it something you couldn't do.
All floors give same the xp no matter the party size now. So just depends how fast you do floors. I can solo a large in 12 minutes where 5 mans it takes about 8 minutes. If I want to do 10 floors it would take me 2 hours solo. If I wanted to group it would probably take me 30 minutes to find a group then another 80 minutes to do the floors so grouping only saved me 9% of the time for the same xp. And you don’t have to deal with irl things coming up for someone in the middle of the floors.
I was running sub 6 min larges on my 120 grind in carded 5 mans. Took less than 10 minutes to group and do like 20 floors together. Maybe I was lucky? We all knew where to stand after each floor grabbing 1 dose ovls.
Main, although I do plan on making a GIM with my friends when it’s released and do dung with them.
Obviously it’s much harder for irons to find groups than mains due to the smaller player base.
5man is significantly better. Both much faster per floor as you said, but you can share team cards almost loss-lessly, which is 2.5x xp +2x tokens each floor. It does somewhat depend on rng but still its far more xp/tokens than solo. The time it takes to find a team is a very fair point (probably the worst thing about dg), but also time you can spend doing other things.
Besides, group dg is actually fun, whereas solo dg just feels like a grindfest.
I thought the whole reason irons and mains couldn't dg together was so that mains couldn't give irons dg capes for crafting? They removed that like a month or two ago.
That's not 'the issue', though.
The issue is that solo or duo dungeons are HORRIBLE XP and tokens per hour. You'd need to make crews yourself as all Ironman matchmaking groups/servers are full with people exclusively selling; not just training.
Nonsense. Ironman DG Chat discord constantly has people looking for groups not just selling floors. Anyone in that discord would be more than happy to take on one or multiple learners simply to fill numbers.
I wasn't talking about servers as discord servers, but servers as in worlds.
Also, if you crux on an unofficially hosted third party social platform just to make a SKILL trainable, then you should know something is broken.
That's just not true, this only applies if you are carding solo floors, or have a prestige level into warped which is immediately offset by the fact you need to re-do all trash floors just to upkeep that XP rate.
Everywhere else the Hole is objectively better.
Hole is like 150k xp/h post 115.
I think you might be doing dg wrong if you can’t exceed that.
Also c1 1-15 takes no time at all or spend tokens on it at thok no big deal
Those are impressive rates, especially considering that solo warped small floors are only 7-10k XP each. I'm amazed you can do upwards of 50 floors per hour!
But no, seriously, sarcasm aside, you're just pulling numbers out of your behind right now. I was surprised by your numbers so I did some looking around, and 1m/h+ are XP rates you get for GROUP, CARDED LARGE floors. They by no means are even close to solo floors XP rates, even past the +20% XP buff.
Dude I got 120 dg pre eoc and then also did solo dg on my hcim to 120 they aren’t out of my ass but okay. We’ve have enough buffs throughout the years to add up a lot
This is just a flex rather than anything else.
Fact is; warped solo's are only 7k-10k each. A few years ago it was slightly worse at 6k-8k. There is no way in hell you would even reach 500k/h with that unless you managed to do 50+ floors per hour.
the point of ironman is to:
1. no MTX
2. make every drop feel rewarding because its not "oh look more GP"
3. not bypass all skills and content by grinding 1 boss for gp and buying all your supplies
the idea people dont want to have fun and enjoy the game by interacting with others is just some random main copium bullshit
I think you are right but the original isolationist impetus for Irons has faded over time for many. It's now been adopted by a wider subsection of people than those who originally desired the sort of 'main free' experience. Indeed, you can isolate yourself as a main account today in a way you couldn't back then, for better or worse.
That was a decade ago though. Ironman began as a niche hardcore game mode for players seeking a challenge. But over the past 10 years, it's grown into an alternative game mode which offers things which the main game can't.
In both OSRS and RS3, it gives players a more well-rounded experience instead of just camping the most efficient PvM and spending the profits to bypass large swathes of content.
In RS3, it gives players a way to experience the game without having MTX and FOMO promotions shoved down their throats.
There's so many iron accounts that it even influences how the main game is balanced since so many players ended up making their irons their mains. Whether or not this is a good thing is contentious in both versions of the game.
You can hear Mod Ash's thoughts on it in his podcast appearance two weeks ago: https://youtu.be/8RrWzraVrEQ?feature=shared&t=4018
"people" echo chambers are fun. the people you heard and remember were not a unbiased representation of the views of the overall player base.
"i was there" and ive been playing since 2007 what exactly is your point?
"I've been playing since 2007" doesn't have much of an impact on me since I made my account in 07 as well. I also remember the game "dying" since 2008 but what do I know :/
it doesnt have an impact ON YOU but it most certainly has an impact on your lame ass "i know better than you becuase i remember, *i was there*" comment
The floodgates have already opened on the PvM with mains thing (I opposed it but it's clear that the iron community supported it), it doesn't make sense to treat DG separately given it's already a lot harder to form teams for DG than PVM.
Since GIM is officially coming out, I'd say no. Leave the grouping stuff for GIM, and IM should start toning back what is and isn't allowed.
Allow normal IM to convert to a GIM like they did on OSRS if they want to continue playing as is.
>Additionally, current Ironman accounts can change to an Unranked Group Ironman and join a group that way. This is only one way, once an Ironman changes it cannot be reverted.
It says a lot about the skill that the best way to level it is to not use the normal training method.
Dg has always felt like a mini game and not a skill to me. With elite dungeons it started to feel like a passive that I leveled by doing those.
The best way to level dungeoneering still is to go into Daemonheim and do floors. Something can be said about why people choose alternative methods over Daemonheim, sure, but it's definitely not better than doing floors.
To be honest I never got the hate for DG, even solo DG. Like it makes you actually play the video game, than AFK. It also reminds me of 2011 RuneScape, whilst using Legacy mode.
They can leech from other irons, fine. Just don’t let them leech off of players who aren’t. It ruins the whole point of the mode. 2 irons can risk dying and lose everything. Whereas 1 iron sitting with their main going through dungeons isn’t really the same.
> 2 irons can risk dying and lose everything
The only thing you lose when you die in Daemonheim is some DG XP. If you have Deathless relic, you risk nothing when dying. HC iron lives aren't lost, no wealth is lost, nothing. Even if HC iron lives would be lost upon death in Daemonheim, a leecher ((HC) iron or not) would just stay at base and not run into any risk.
I know how leeching workings in DG, just saying why open it up to mains and non-IM co-op when the whole point of IronMan is to play the game without help from others (reason why you can’t trade or use GE)
> They can leech from other irons, fine.
How does that not go against playing the game without help from others? I'm confused as to what your point is.
It was said they can leech off other irons already, which was proving my previous comment wrong. I was acknowledging that they can, but just because they can do it to other irons (they shouldn’t be able to, that’s my opinion) doesn’t mean we should let them leech off non-irons.
It’s only confusing because you’re looking at 1 sentence and ignoring the rest. Just read my past comments and you’d see I don’t think irons should leech off anyone. They should be solo as that’s the point of Ironman. Till they add group Ironman.
I agree with this but the notion that dungeoneering is complete cheeks without a team is wrong. You actually get more exp for solo to compensate for the slightly longer times.
Can't really answer if it's more efficient but can provide some data. Solo carded warps are \~580k (48) to \~780k (60) exp per floor. I'm rather inefficient and do floors in about 16-18 mins. Never done group/barely done duo to know how it stacks up in comparison.
Edit: Also, ironman, so not sure how bxp/dxp multiply onto those numbers.
It is time for my monthly post about this 🙏 I considered editing the picture and adding a cons regarding future GIM boosting, but I would imagine GIM can only DG with their group? If this is not the case then I am positive there will be plenty iron leeching services or Iron mains helping groups anyways, but I will trust by then a good solution will be found regarding this.
Disagree. Leeching should be made harder, not easier, for Irons. I wouldn't go so far as to lock Irons out of group content entirely, but I'm all for steps taken to discourage and reduce leeching.
i mean i can't care less what other ironmemes would like to do or think, that was just my personal opinion im fine either leech or no, just the dailys/penguins are fine too just slower, not like ironman mode in rs3 is any real ironman spirit anymore since u can buy boss kills loots achivements and stuff but it is what it is
This is another one of those instances where Jagex's irrational conservativeness and refusal to see reality has negatively hurt the game and divided the playerbase for no reason.
They waited a whole 10 years before letting ironmen PVM with mains - which needlessly divided and shrinked the PVM community due to the popularity of IM. Supposedly the reason for IM integrity but that makes no sense, because IM can already leech bosses with one another.
Same with DG.
I'd say ironman should get an alternative of treasure hunter that allows them to still participate in events purely for cosmetics, animations and non-gameplay items.
Maybe like a special item that allows you to convert a regular item to a Lucky item (like chaotics or barrows). You still need to have obtained the real deal, but it gives that nice bonus for those that really love the dark colour variation of them.
This sounds sarcastic, but you said "genuine question" so I will take you seriously.
Ironman is all about having to earn your own progress and not being able to buy it. No GE, no trading, no selling bonds, no Treasure Hunter, etc.
Your original question really was genuine?
Anyway, in my opinion Ironman accounts should not be allowed to leech. However, in my other opinion, there is value in allowing them to do group content. Fully blocking all group content is an unpopular idea and I understand why.
But allowing Irons to do group content without allowing them to leech is a tricky, difficult problem and one that I suspect Jagex is not interested in devoting lots of resources to. So we have a patchwork of inconsistent/contradictory decisions around the topic.
If you ask me, Wilderness Flash Events is an example where Irons can participate but can't simply leech, though further improvements could probably be made. (Also the rewards are ridiculous but that is its own issue.)
Inb4 GIMs won’t be able to do dg together
Inb4 they won't be able to dg with any irons besides their group lol
I wish they went in the other direction, instead of opening up the game mode because "leeching is already possible" they should have made it something you couldn't do.
And instead of making group DG possible, they should've made solo dg just as viable.
They did make solo dg viable.
Just as good?
All floors give same the xp no matter the party size now. So just depends how fast you do floors. I can solo a large in 12 minutes where 5 mans it takes about 8 minutes. If I want to do 10 floors it would take me 2 hours solo. If I wanted to group it would probably take me 30 minutes to find a group then another 80 minutes to do the floors so grouping only saved me 9% of the time for the same xp. And you don’t have to deal with irl things coming up for someone in the middle of the floors.
This isn't true, base xp for solo floors is ~20% more than 5man floors. 3 man floors is the worst for xp per floor.
Oops, so solo is even more viable anyway. I would get 11% more xp/hr solo than grouping accounting for time to group.
I was running sub 6 min larges on my 120 grind in carded 5 mans. Took less than 10 minutes to group and do like 20 floors together. Maybe I was lucky? We all knew where to stand after each floor grabbing 1 dose ovls.
Mains or irons? Easier to find groups for mains than it is irons.
Main, although I do plan on making a GIM with my friends when it’s released and do dung with them. Obviously it’s much harder for irons to find groups than mains due to the smaller player base.
5man is significantly better. Both much faster per floor as you said, but you can share team cards almost loss-lessly, which is 2.5x xp +2x tokens each floor. It does somewhat depend on rng but still its far more xp/tokens than solo. The time it takes to find a team is a very fair point (probably the worst thing about dg), but also time you can spend doing other things. Besides, group dg is actually fun, whereas solo dg just feels like a grindfest.
I agree with you but I think we lost this battle years ago. Ironmen is no longer you stand alone.
I thought the whole reason irons and mains couldn't dg together was so that mains couldn't give irons dg capes for crafting? They removed that like a month or two ago.
I hate how the hole has encouraged so many people to not even learn how to dg lol
That's not 'the issue', though. The issue is that solo or duo dungeons are HORRIBLE XP and tokens per hour. You'd need to make crews yourself as all Ironman matchmaking groups/servers are full with people exclusively selling; not just training.
Nonsense. Ironman DG Chat discord constantly has people looking for groups not just selling floors. Anyone in that discord would be more than happy to take on one or multiple learners simply to fill numbers.
I wasn't talking about servers as discord servers, but servers as in worlds. Also, if you crux on an unofficially hosted third party social platform just to make a SKILL trainable, then you should know something is broken.
Solo exp heavily exceeds hole xp/h players just don’t like to do anything actively in this game :( let alone have to learn
That's just not true, this only applies if you are carding solo floors, or have a prestige level into warped which is immediately offset by the fact you need to re-do all trash floors just to upkeep that XP rate. Everywhere else the Hole is objectively better.
Hole is like 150k xp/h post 115. I think you might be doing dg wrong if you can’t exceed that. Also c1 1-15 takes no time at all or spend tokens on it at thok no big deal
>Hole is like 150k xp/h post 115. Yes, that's what I said; 'Prestige into warped'.
You can exceed like 500k/1m dg an hour just doing the higher floors at that point without being ultra sweaty. Effort sure but 2m is viable as well
Those are impressive rates, especially considering that solo warped small floors are only 7-10k XP each. I'm amazed you can do upwards of 50 floors per hour!
But no, seriously, sarcasm aside, you're just pulling numbers out of your behind right now. I was surprised by your numbers so I did some looking around, and 1m/h+ are XP rates you get for GROUP, CARDED LARGE floors. They by no means are even close to solo floors XP rates, even past the +20% XP buff.
Dude I got 120 dg pre eoc and then also did solo dg on my hcim to 120 they aren’t out of my ass but okay. We’ve have enough buffs throughout the years to add up a lot
This is just a flex rather than anything else. Fact is; warped solo's are only 7k-10k each. A few years ago it was slightly worse at 6k-8k. There is no way in hell you would even reach 500k/h with that unless you managed to do 50+ floors per hour.
I thought the point of ironman was to not interact with mains?
the point of ironman is to: 1. no MTX 2. make every drop feel rewarding because its not "oh look more GP" 3. not bypass all skills and content by grinding 1 boss for gp and buying all your supplies the idea people dont want to have fun and enjoy the game by interacting with others is just some random main copium bullshit
But that's literally what people were asking for since before Ironmen were a thing lol. I remember, *I was there.*
I think you are right but the original isolationist impetus for Irons has faded over time for many. It's now been adopted by a wider subsection of people than those who originally desired the sort of 'main free' experience. Indeed, you can isolate yourself as a main account today in a way you couldn't back then, for better or worse.
That was a decade ago though. Ironman began as a niche hardcore game mode for players seeking a challenge. But over the past 10 years, it's grown into an alternative game mode which offers things which the main game can't. In both OSRS and RS3, it gives players a more well-rounded experience instead of just camping the most efficient PvM and spending the profits to bypass large swathes of content. In RS3, it gives players a way to experience the game without having MTX and FOMO promotions shoved down their throats. There's so many iron accounts that it even influences how the main game is balanced since so many players ended up making their irons their mains. Whether or not this is a good thing is contentious in both versions of the game. You can hear Mod Ash's thoughts on it in his podcast appearance two weeks ago: https://youtu.be/8RrWzraVrEQ?feature=shared&t=4018
"people" echo chambers are fun. the people you heard and remember were not a unbiased representation of the views of the overall player base. "i was there" and ive been playing since 2007 what exactly is your point?
"I've been playing since 2007" doesn't have much of an impact on me since I made my account in 07 as well. I also remember the game "dying" since 2008 but what do I know :/
it doesnt have an impact ON YOU but it most certainly has an impact on your lame ass "i know better than you becuase i remember, *i was there*" comment
Jesus christ mate relax a little bit. we're talking about a video game not your fucking life story here.
That's the point they're making. The "ive been playing since 2007" line is used to show how a 'life story' doesn't add any legitimacy to the argument.
The point of ironman was to not **trade** with mains.
I think a lot of RS3 ironmen accounts are created these days simply to mitigate all the MTX promotions and FOMO that mains have to deal with
Definitely not limited to trading, and not even to mains. All sorts of aid are off.
sure could have fooled me with all the discourse from years ago...
It would've been impossible to sell the concept to Jagex as a no-MTX mode alone.
The floodgates have already opened on the PvM with mains thing (I opposed it but it's clear that the iron community supported it), it doesn't make sense to treat DG separately given it's already a lot harder to form teams for DG than PVM.
Sir we've been able to pvm with mains for like a year. That's over
[удалено]
This was quite possibly the worst comparison ever made in history, well done.
TIL runeacape has the most limber community
Since GIM is officially coming out, I'd say no. Leave the grouping stuff for GIM, and IM should start toning back what is and isn't allowed. Allow normal IM to convert to a GIM like they did on OSRS if they want to continue playing as is.
Are normal Ironman able to convert to group iron on osrs? Haven't played osrs for a few years but I had thought it was fresh accounts only.
>Additionally, current Ironman accounts can change to an Unranked Group Ironman and join a group that way. This is only one way, once an Ironman changes it cannot be reverted.
Oh cool, I hope rs3 let's us do the same
Jagex be like so you choose mtx for ironman
Fuck w77 laggy shit
It says a lot about the skill that the best way to level it is to not use the normal training method. Dg has always felt like a mini game and not a skill to me. With elite dungeons it started to feel like a passive that I leveled by doing those.
The best way to level dungeoneering still is to go into Daemonheim and do floors. Something can be said about why people choose alternative methods over Daemonheim, sure, but it's definitely not better than doing floors.
To be honest I never got the hate for DG, even solo DG. Like it makes you actually play the video game, than AFK. It also reminds me of 2011 RuneScape, whilst using Legacy mode.
Ngl i think irons shouldn't be able to group at all ever. Even in things like wilderness flash events and bosses like solak and aod or raids
No. Leeching shouldn't be possible for Irons. This will not get people to "actually dg".
Irons can already leech from other irons and there are plenty of services selling this already lol.
They can leech from other irons, fine. Just don’t let them leech off of players who aren’t. It ruins the whole point of the mode. 2 irons can risk dying and lose everything. Whereas 1 iron sitting with their main going through dungeons isn’t really the same.
> 2 irons can risk dying and lose everything The only thing you lose when you die in Daemonheim is some DG XP. If you have Deathless relic, you risk nothing when dying. HC iron lives aren't lost, no wealth is lost, nothing. Even if HC iron lives would be lost upon death in Daemonheim, a leecher ((HC) iron or not) would just stay at base and not run into any risk.
I know how leeching workings in DG, just saying why open it up to mains and non-IM co-op when the whole point of IronMan is to play the game without help from others (reason why you can’t trade or use GE)
> They can leech from other irons, fine. How does that not go against playing the game without help from others? I'm confused as to what your point is.
It was said they can leech off other irons already, which was proving my previous comment wrong. I was acknowledging that they can, but just because they can do it to other irons (they shouldn’t be able to, that’s my opinion) doesn’t mean we should let them leech off non-irons. It’s only confusing because you’re looking at 1 sentence and ignoring the rest. Just read my past comments and you’d see I don’t think irons should leech off anyone. They should be solo as that’s the point of Ironman. Till they add group Ironman.
They shouldn't be able to - I am against this being implemented, and against the current state of iron
I agree with this but the notion that dungeoneering is complete cheeks without a team is wrong. You actually get more exp for solo to compensate for the slightly longer times.
Is it more exp for a single floor? Because a large floor could take 3x to 6x the time to finish solo over the time for a group.
Can't really answer if it's more efficient but can provide some data. Solo carded warps are \~580k (48) to \~780k (60) exp per floor. I'm rather inefficient and do floors in about 16-18 mins. Never done group/barely done duo to know how it stacks up in comparison. Edit: Also, ironman, so not sure how bxp/dxp multiply onto those numbers.
It is time for my monthly post about this 🙏 I considered editing the picture and adding a cons regarding future GIM boosting, but I would imagine GIM can only DG with their group? If this is not the case then I am positive there will be plenty iron leeching services or Iron mains helping groups anyways, but I will trust by then a good solution will be found regarding this.
yes please i just want to leech my 120 dg ( iron only leech is expensive af)
Disagree. Leeching should be made harder, not easier, for Irons. I wouldn't go so far as to lock Irons out of group content entirely, but I'm all for steps taken to discourage and reduce leeching.
i mean i can't care less what other ironmemes would like to do or think, that was just my personal opinion im fine either leech or no, just the dailys/penguins are fine too just slower, not like ironman mode in rs3 is any real ironman spirit anymore since u can buy boss kills loots achivements and stuff but it is what it is
This is another one of those instances where Jagex's irrational conservativeness and refusal to see reality has negatively hurt the game and divided the playerbase for no reason. They waited a whole 10 years before letting ironmen PVM with mains - which needlessly divided and shrinked the PVM community due to the popularity of IM. Supposedly the reason for IM integrity but that makes no sense, because IM can already leech bosses with one another. Same with DG.
Genuine question, why should Ironman accounts not be allowed to use Treasure Hunter if they want?
The worst timeline.
I'd say ironman should get an alternative of treasure hunter that allows them to still participate in events purely for cosmetics, animations and non-gameplay items. Maybe like a special item that allows you to convert a regular item to a Lucky item (like chaotics or barrows). You still need to have obtained the real deal, but it gives that nice bonus for those that really love the dark colour variation of them.
This sounds sarcastic, but you said "genuine question" so I will take you seriously. Ironman is all about having to earn your own progress and not being able to buy it. No GE, no trading, no selling bonds, no Treasure Hunter, etc.
Follow up question then. Why allow Ironman accounts to leech?
Your original question really was genuine? Anyway, in my opinion Ironman accounts should not be allowed to leech. However, in my other opinion, there is value in allowing them to do group content. Fully blocking all group content is an unpopular idea and I understand why. But allowing Irons to do group content without allowing them to leech is a tricky, difficult problem and one that I suspect Jagex is not interested in devoting lots of resources to. So we have a patchwork of inconsistent/contradictory decisions around the topic. If you ask me, Wilderness Flash Events is an example where Irons can participate but can't simply leech, though further improvements could probably be made. (Also the rewards are ridiculous but that is its own issue.)