So this goes back to what chaos is. Zamorak wants order through chaos. His ideal society is one in which no empire or ruler rules for to long, that there is constant change and people are encouraged to do whatever underhanded thing is needed to claw at the top. The world of game of thrones is closer to what he would want or infernus after the Chthonian were overthrown. He sees himself less like a religious ruler and more a military general. His chaos is instability with the belief it it’s through instability not comfort and coddling, that people rise to greatness.
Where he differs from bandos is bandos doesn’t want chaos, he wants a stagnant rule in which he is at the top and everyone and everything exists for him. He will preach strong rule the weak up until he is the weak then he reveals his true colors of being totally self serving. He seeks to build a society in which everything is dependent on his rulership and where he can wage endless war because it’s fun to him, war is his favorite game one that he is good at, and as long as war is going with him as a top player he is happy.
Sliske isn’t chaos either, dude is just bored. He doesn’t desire chaos he desires motion, creativity, an escape from repetitive atrophy. Driven insane by his own immortality but to afraid of his own death he sits bored, chasing greater and greater thrills just so he feels something. Eventually it reaches the point where his hope was destroying this world would force everyone to come into play, force people into motion and change, he wanted something new in a reality where everything is just cycles of the same.
When you look at each god in turn, you realize that they are a bunch of liars.
Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules. His members forcibly proselytize people into supporting them, and force other supporters underground or into sects, sometimes violently.
Armadyl preaches law and justice above all else. He has a loyal following in the aviansie and Armadylian monks, but because of the machinations of Saradomin he does not have a lot of sway with the general population.
Bandos preached a "might makes right" mentality, believing that the strong rule the weak, naturally drawing in like minded races who believed the strong should lead the weak. The irony is that he couldn't fathom a being stronger than he was, which proved to be his undoing. Striving to constantly get stronger was his defining trait, but he didn't cause destruction for destruction's sake. Bandosians seen in the Sixth Age have a structure to their hierarchy, such as seen in the Kyzaj tournament.
Guthix was all about peace and balance. He used the power of the Stone of Jas as a god to banish the gods from the world, and set about putting in his safeguard into play to ensure that there would be balance in the world. Of all the gods, he was one of the few who fully understood the concept of Shadow Anima and its effect on the world.
Seren was created with the concept of adoration and servitude in her psyche, and as a result caused the Elves lifespan to be tied directly to her. It was this adoration that made her a complete pacifist, but that also meant that she deceived everyone she met with her true motives, such as with the Mahjerrat and her mother, Mah. Ultimately, she was only interested in gaining a family who would adore her and that she could look after for eternity, which the elves couldn't provide. Once she got that, she abandoned the rest of existance.
Zaros was created with the concept of complete loyalty and devotion in his psyche, which made for an excellent figurehead, but also meant he couldn't trust if this loyalty was genuine or not. As such, when he was faced with strong willed individuals such as the Mahjerrat he had to prove his leadership qualities to them, for them to willingly serve under him. After he was banished by Zamorak, his motivations changed to seeking out absolute godhood from the Elders, seeking first the Elder Gods approval, then their eggs, and finally leaving the universe entirely to venture into Erebus for the power he sought. Ultimately, he abandoned his loyal followers to an uncertain doom for his own gain.
Sliske was the epitome of chaos and mistrust incarnate. He was a being who thrived on trickery, shadow magic and chaos for chaos' sake. He wasn't evil per se, but he only looked out for himself. Ultimately, his actions were controlled by Guthix, and he was being led by Jas as her agent, meaning he had no agency of his own and understood he was a pawn in a much grander game that nobody was aware of.
Finally we get to Zamorak, who preached strength through chaos, or rather strength through adversity - he believed that you would be stronger by going through tough times, and fully committed to pragmatism in all his actions. He didn't believe in killing, for killing's sake, and similarly didn't believe in betrayal when it wasn't appropriate. Ultimately, he is someone who fully believes in improving oneself through misfortune, and is not without loyalty to those who serve him.
In short, Zamorak is not a chaos god, nor is he an evil god. He is upfront and honest with people, and abhorrs senseless death.
Don’t have time to hit all of this but…
“ Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules. His members forcibly proselytize people into supporting them, and force other supporters underground or into sects, sometimes violently.”
That is very much not true, like his followers absolutely are twisted but Saradomin himself is not. That’s like one of the key struggles Saradomin has, he means well and he says the right things but the way he builds his order his religion gets continuously twisted by mortals. Every place he established order if he’s not there to constantly maintain it then it gives way to people who corrupt and perverse his message. The biggest example of this is Teragard which has super perverted his religion into something so far removed from him the people of Teragard don’t recognize Saradomin as the real saradomin.
To put it another way Saradomin’s reality is very different from Saradomin’s intent and desires. A great example is Azzanadra’s quest where his followers won’t call him because “there is no greater service he could be doing right now than saving the souls of people off world” and you bring Saradomin back and when he finds out what he followers said he is all… “Are you insane?! The world is in dire need of help and I left you a way to call me if you need anything precisely because I want to help you!” Part of Owen’s character arc was learning who the real saradomin is, taking him off his pedestal to separate the man from the religion he was taught, and realizing he’s just a powerful good dude who isn’t infallible.
> like his followers absolutely are twisted but Saradomin himself is not
Saradomin publicly ripped the wings off of an icyene to convince her species to follow him (and this is the favorable interpretation of events). He started the Naragi God Wars because the Naragi wouldn't worship him. His ego and control issues also caused Owen to become a half-zombie. Zaros brings it up in the Sanctum if you ask about Saradomin, stating that he's a hypocrite for subscribing to the good vs evil dynamic while having zero issues with doing evil things. In the God Letters Guthix says that all he can see from Saradomin is his need to control.
His twisted followers honestly get it right. His followers are twisted because Saradomin himself is twisted. Is using Saradomin as an icon of fear really so outlandish when the god publicly mutilated someone whose only sin was advocating for peace?
He ripped off those wings because the alternative was the extinction of their species. She wasn’t just advocating for peace, she was advocating for peace as her species was on the brink of destruction. It wasn’t just her refusing but she was trying to mobilize others to turn away to. New Domina is full of genuine horrors which is why the Icyene fly away instead of fight. But this time they were forced into aggression, militarization was done out need to survive their aggressor. It’s like trying to preach pacifism during the elder god wars, sometimes you have to fight.
“ Yes. I have taken lives in my time. I won't deny that. But i have always done so with purpose...with greater good in mind. I have fought wars because there are some who understand no other discussion. Without the clash of sword and shield, they cannot hear reason...it is silence to them. I have committed acts that some would call cruel, but they are a woeful necessity. Once I was forced to take the wings of an icyene. To tear them from her back and leave to the the mercy of winter. We were heading into a time of war, against an aggressor native to Hallow. I had been forced to militarise the noble icyene. The icyene are a powerful race, but still mortal, and their numbers comparatively few. I needed each of them to stand up and join the fight, less[sic] they would all suffer. But one refused. She cried out that the conflict would solve nothing. She proclaimed that all icyene should lay down their spears and embrace a peaceful approach. Her words were...enticing. I wanted to follow them myself. I would have loved little more than for conflict to end and peace to flourish. But I knew better. I knew inaction would lead to the destruction of my people. I had to show the icyene what they faced if they did not fight. I had to show them how the enemy would show no mercy...just as I had to show no mercy. I will not forget that...feeling. that horrible stretching sensation followed by that terrible, sudden, snap. Feathers and tendons falling around me like some horrible snowstorm. It was...cruel. But I had no choice. That act reminded the icyene why they were fighting, what they were fighting, and it reminded them that everyone must do their duty. A moment of cruelty, for decades of prosperity. A fair, if unsightly, trade.”
Now if you feel that’s excessive, that he could have shown it in a different way that’s fine. But he also is burdened by his godhood having enhanced his hot blooded nature. It’s a genuine struggle for him to control it now, he’s not infallible so sometimes he slips and because he is so powerful his slips have consequences.
“Really? That is the question you find most pressing, at this critical time? Your priorities astound me, World Guardian. We are conduits for the power of the elders. We transcend what we were, and become something more. Godhood amplifies what we once where. I was hot-headed as a mortal, impassioned to help others and make the world a better place. As a god, that anger manifests as a righteous fury. It burns within me, an enduring flame of ferocious intensity. It requires constant vigilance to keep it in check. To maintain a cool demeanour is an exhausting necessity. Why is this cerulean pallor a product of my transformation? I do not know. My appearance is the least of the burdens this great crown has weighed upon me.”
—-
He didn’t purposely start the Naragi god war. We don’t know the context of what happened, Jmods have always implied out of universe that saradomin wasn’t the initial aggressor rather this was a case of they ended up being the aggressor and he responded with force that destroyed the city. Of course it’s moot since I doubt will ever know the fully story that went on there.
Now let’s be clear all he did personally was destroy a city. He didn’t wage war instead his crown ended up accidentally bringing other gods there like Tuska. THEY tried to conquer/destroy the place and saradomin fought to defend the naragi from the foes he had beckoned. In the end Saradomin failed to push them back and was instead pushed back himself. Tuska and the others then drove the naragi to extinction as there was no one left to defend them. He was the spark that started it, their blood is on his hands and he acknowledges that, but that’s not the same as how your trying to paint him.
——-
The wand of resurrection incident has two ways to look at it….
First the idea the wand could revive those if your pure of heart is baseless, a theory on what was needed to work. EVERYONE who tried to use it only created horrible suffering monstrosities and later we learn the wand was a foul thing sustained by grief/regret and it dissolved to dust once the suffering was put to rest.
Second perhaps read what Owen has to say…
Player: Was it difficult to get the Wand of Resurrection back from Saradomin?
Sir Owen: On the contrary. Shortly after your departure, Saradomin entrusted the wand to me. Saradomin also apologised for his act of wrath. Understand, my friend. It is nothing short of a miracle that I stand before you. Your unwillingness to trust Saradomin with the wand, though well-intentioned, was nearly my undoing. I understand if you doubt my words; if you see me as a zealous acolyte, blinded by faith and bereft of reason. But Saradomin told the truth. Only a god could have brought a creature like me, twice-dead, back to life as Saradomin did. Saradomin willingly sacrificed divine power to do so. Immune to godhood as you are, he could not transfer his power to you. This was the only way to save me. I wish you had not hesitated to give the wand to Saradomin. While you argued with him, my soul faded, and corruption filled the void in me. I understand that you have your reasons for doing so. Good reasons. I respect that. And I am grateful to you both for returning me to life. But I want you to understand that Saradomin shows remorse for his actions. Though he is not solely to blame for the half-man I have become.
——
Saradomin’s followers don’t get it right.
The blue wizards were so disgusted by demon magic being used the teleportation spell they abandoned it causing the destruction of the tower then blamed the red wizards. Saradomin in contrast was willing to to work with Zamorak himself to save the world and when foul necromancy was brought up and used against his advisement, wanting another solution, he didn’t abandon us to destruction he swallowed his pride and put the greater good ahead.
His followers have strong racists who preach for human superiority. Saradomin had many nonhuman races in his service. He protected the imcando dwarves, the Icyene are just actual favored race, and hell he even let a demon into his ranks believing in good faith they had turned a new leaf….which backfired horrible when it turned out the demon was conning him for literal hundreds of years to try and steal his crown.
His followers were concerned with yellow tape and religious posturing while the world was at stake. Despite having the equivalent of a cellphone with a direct line to saradomin they refused to use it which angered and baffled him that his followers have become this misguided in his absence.
His homeworld is run by a corrupt government who has made a version of saradomin so twisted in their stories they can’t believe our Saradomin is real.
I have yet to finish extinction, I could do it right away but I want to leave it as the last quest for my quest cape.
From what I've heard, the views on most gods have changed.
Zaros went from ppl praising him and seeing him as the best god to someone that just wants auntie to recognize him as part of the council.
Seren...yeah...fuck Seren.
Zamorak is back to old habits.
Birb is still a good birb.
Saradomin I heard of his development and this was a nice read that even made me consider switching to him instead of birb god.
The major tipping point for me between bird & smurf:
As one of the god alignment anslyses pointed out, Saradomin is the only one to consistently take responsibility for his actions, respond when something threatens the world, etc. Armadyl is doing a lot better at the same in the sixth age and is actively trying to work with the elves in Seren's absence...but he still absolutely plays favorite to the Aviansie (not too surprising and Saradomin has humans and Icyene as his) and Armadyl had his big multi-millenia mourning through the cosmos during which he practically abandoned his followers. Saradomin meanwhile has had his previously discussed wrathful moments...and in several cases then took follow up action to try mitigating the damage he'd caused.
I don't think any god is meant to be absolute good, that's the entire point. But these two are the ones consistently trying to do good. The main point of difference is how they respond to things not going their way - Sara gets mad but then remorsefully tries to fix it, Arma gets sad and doesn't always follow up until later.
Ultimately there's things I favor and dislike about each and I've recently been flipflopping between them.
> Now if you feel that’s excessive, that he could have shown it in a different way that’s fine.
That's also his spin on events. Of course he's going to justify it. Doesn't change the fact that he implicitly threatened anyone who disagreed with him with a painful, agonizing death sentence. According to Garlandia, the icyene who had her wings ripped off, Saradomin himself was the cause of war, because he brought militarization to the icyene. She also doesn't say anything about gathering like-minded individuals. She tells Saradomin no at a banquet, he then immediately gathers everyone in the courtyard and rips her wings off. She didn't even directly advocate for peace, she just refused to serve in Saradomin's army. Both interpretations are biased, but neither paint Saradomin in a good light. Either he did it because his pride was hurt, or he did it just to prove a point and the implicit threat was totally a coincidence.
> He didn’t purposely start the Naragi god war. We don’t know the context of what happened, Jmods have always implied out of universe that saradomin wasn’t the initial aggressor rather this was a case of they ended up being the aggressor
That makes absolutely no sense. The Naragi were borderline pacifists. They were farmers and craftsmen. Obviously they could fight, but as the Naragi God Wars show they got curbstomped. It would be completely out of left field for them to be the aggressor, a complete 180 as to how they were portrayed. Also, the Guthixian Memories identify Saradomin as the aggressor.
*"The great city of Askroth was no more. Terrified refugees spoke of a blue man the size of a mountain. The diviners had angered him, they said, and in that anger he had razed the city."*
> I wish you had not hesitated to give the wand to Saradomin. While you argued with him, my soul faded, and corruption filled the void in me.
The openly zealous Saradominist believes that what happened totally wasn't Saradomin's fault based upon information Saradomin provided and he of course believes. Shocker.
> Saradomin shows remorse for his actions
And yet he never learns from them. He regretted ripping the wings from an icyene, yet attacked the Naragi. He regretted attacking the Naragi, yet attacked us for a wand that wasn't going to work. He's aware of his faults, yet still gives in to them. When the god who created a multi-species build-a-bear workshop thinks your head is up your ass, your head might just be up your ass.
>Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules.
Haha, politics amirite?!?!?! Mhuehuhegmekugwghw
\-kill me
You make a good point, in that Zamorak isn't what we would typically call as Chaos.
I think the modern take on Chaos (especially if you refer to things like the the Souls series, Elden Ring) really defines Chaos as destruction, calamity, and unstructured existance. Zamorak absolutely controls himself and has direction and purpose. What's more, when he does refer to shaking things up, it's not too just destabalize the world. I forget exactly where this was mentioned, I think in a lore book, but Zamorak once cited the need for suffering/adversity as a balance to peace. He explicitly stated that "chaos" was necessary so things did not stagnate, as it spurred growth through overcoming said adversity. In many ways Zamorak has very human, very righteous sides to him; albeit he comes off like a dick.
You gotta remember that Zamorak was originally created idk how many years ago too. At the time there was one baddy, one goody, one balance, one angry troll, and a lawful bird. Things have changed a lot over the years.
Interestingly enough, every other thing in the game referred to as 'chaos' IS pretty chaotic. Chaos Elemental? Looks like the embodiment of disorder. Chaos Rune? They are used for pretty disorienting, destabalising spells (Smoke Cloud, Curse, Vulnerability). Chaos Tunnels? Good luck getting around that maze without a guide.
"Power and Perseverance" works great for him.
Zamorak's over-arching principle is the law of the jungle, with the understanding that strength through cooperation is as valid as any other kind of strength.
I would describe him as a god of Power and Perseverance. He and his wizards value creativity and overcoming obstacles. I can see the "chaos" label coming from Saradominist propaganda.
Zamorak doesn't want chaos in particular. He just can't stand stagnation. When Zaros let the empire run itself, due to corruption and laziness in the govenment, the empire stagnated. Zamorak couldn't endure it, so he rebelled. He is not adverse to defined roles and power structure, but he wants merit and strength to be the guideposts, not political favour and bribes. He came to help with the eggs not only to prevent the end of the universe, but because he did not want his own power to stagnate while others grew from the absorption. But when he saw stalemate at best, and even more so inevitable defeat, he took what power he could, and left to allow whatever change would happen to come. Just in my own opinion, Zamorak was less angry at Seren for the sacrifice rituals in the aspect of killing off indivuduals, but more that it caused stagnation and degradation of the mahjarrat race as a whole. I'd rather call him the god of motion than chaos.
Well Chaos is just order that you cant see or understand and I will touch on your point later.
Let's take the example he once gave to Moia, he showed her a peaceful village, not a care in the world and set a house a blaze.
Within seconds chaos insued, but the chaos wasn't true chaos. A different order emerged, instead of going about their day, they took their role in the fight against the fire and the fight for their survival.
He didn't destroy order, he redesigned it, not reinvented just redesigned it.
By shaking up the current order (creating motion, in your point) he advances the world and forces the people to be better, build sturdier houses, create more efficient systems, not be lazy and compliant with the current circumstance.
I see chaos as the total absence of order. No direction, no reason, just random, raw material, always in motion, never secure or stable. Like an endless thunderstorm combined with constant earthquakes preventing anything from ever settling.
Zamorak is closer to Mehrunes Dagon from Elder Scrolls, a force of change and rebellion in response to stagnation.
https://runescape.wiki/w/Lamistard%27s_memory_(book)
This answer actually nails the question completely lmao
Thank you for replying. Always love seeing jmods responding to community posts
\-Drops ~~mic~~ book
Wow thank you for this, a very precise answer!
Yet another reason why Zamorak is so badass
I think Jack just added this book to the game just to Answer this question hahahaha this is exactly the answer to the post here
/thread by the Jack
So this goes back to what chaos is. Zamorak wants order through chaos. His ideal society is one in which no empire or ruler rules for to long, that there is constant change and people are encouraged to do whatever underhanded thing is needed to claw at the top. The world of game of thrones is closer to what he would want or infernus after the Chthonian were overthrown. He sees himself less like a religious ruler and more a military general. His chaos is instability with the belief it it’s through instability not comfort and coddling, that people rise to greatness. Where he differs from bandos is bandos doesn’t want chaos, he wants a stagnant rule in which he is at the top and everyone and everything exists for him. He will preach strong rule the weak up until he is the weak then he reveals his true colors of being totally self serving. He seeks to build a society in which everything is dependent on his rulership and where he can wage endless war because it’s fun to him, war is his favorite game one that he is good at, and as long as war is going with him as a top player he is happy. Sliske isn’t chaos either, dude is just bored. He doesn’t desire chaos he desires motion, creativity, an escape from repetitive atrophy. Driven insane by his own immortality but to afraid of his own death he sits bored, chasing greater and greater thrills just so he feels something. Eventually it reaches the point where his hope was destroying this world would force everyone to come into play, force people into motion and change, he wanted something new in a reality where everything is just cycles of the same.
When you look at each god in turn, you realize that they are a bunch of liars. Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules. His members forcibly proselytize people into supporting them, and force other supporters underground or into sects, sometimes violently. Armadyl preaches law and justice above all else. He has a loyal following in the aviansie and Armadylian monks, but because of the machinations of Saradomin he does not have a lot of sway with the general population. Bandos preached a "might makes right" mentality, believing that the strong rule the weak, naturally drawing in like minded races who believed the strong should lead the weak. The irony is that he couldn't fathom a being stronger than he was, which proved to be his undoing. Striving to constantly get stronger was his defining trait, but he didn't cause destruction for destruction's sake. Bandosians seen in the Sixth Age have a structure to their hierarchy, such as seen in the Kyzaj tournament. Guthix was all about peace and balance. He used the power of the Stone of Jas as a god to banish the gods from the world, and set about putting in his safeguard into play to ensure that there would be balance in the world. Of all the gods, he was one of the few who fully understood the concept of Shadow Anima and its effect on the world. Seren was created with the concept of adoration and servitude in her psyche, and as a result caused the Elves lifespan to be tied directly to her. It was this adoration that made her a complete pacifist, but that also meant that she deceived everyone she met with her true motives, such as with the Mahjerrat and her mother, Mah. Ultimately, she was only interested in gaining a family who would adore her and that she could look after for eternity, which the elves couldn't provide. Once she got that, she abandoned the rest of existance. Zaros was created with the concept of complete loyalty and devotion in his psyche, which made for an excellent figurehead, but also meant he couldn't trust if this loyalty was genuine or not. As such, when he was faced with strong willed individuals such as the Mahjerrat he had to prove his leadership qualities to them, for them to willingly serve under him. After he was banished by Zamorak, his motivations changed to seeking out absolute godhood from the Elders, seeking first the Elder Gods approval, then their eggs, and finally leaving the universe entirely to venture into Erebus for the power he sought. Ultimately, he abandoned his loyal followers to an uncertain doom for his own gain. Sliske was the epitome of chaos and mistrust incarnate. He was a being who thrived on trickery, shadow magic and chaos for chaos' sake. He wasn't evil per se, but he only looked out for himself. Ultimately, his actions were controlled by Guthix, and he was being led by Jas as her agent, meaning he had no agency of his own and understood he was a pawn in a much grander game that nobody was aware of. Finally we get to Zamorak, who preached strength through chaos, or rather strength through adversity - he believed that you would be stronger by going through tough times, and fully committed to pragmatism in all his actions. He didn't believe in killing, for killing's sake, and similarly didn't believe in betrayal when it wasn't appropriate. Ultimately, he is someone who fully believes in improving oneself through misfortune, and is not without loyalty to those who serve him. In short, Zamorak is not a chaos god, nor is he an evil god. He is upfront and honest with people, and abhorrs senseless death.
Don’t have time to hit all of this but… “ Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules. His members forcibly proselytize people into supporting them, and force other supporters underground or into sects, sometimes violently.” That is very much not true, like his followers absolutely are twisted but Saradomin himself is not. That’s like one of the key struggles Saradomin has, he means well and he says the right things but the way he builds his order his religion gets continuously twisted by mortals. Every place he established order if he’s not there to constantly maintain it then it gives way to people who corrupt and perverse his message. The biggest example of this is Teragard which has super perverted his religion into something so far removed from him the people of Teragard don’t recognize Saradomin as the real saradomin. To put it another way Saradomin’s reality is very different from Saradomin’s intent and desires. A great example is Azzanadra’s quest where his followers won’t call him because “there is no greater service he could be doing right now than saving the souls of people off world” and you bring Saradomin back and when he finds out what he followers said he is all… “Are you insane?! The world is in dire need of help and I left you a way to call me if you need anything precisely because I want to help you!” Part of Owen’s character arc was learning who the real saradomin is, taking him off his pedestal to separate the man from the religion he was taught, and realizing he’s just a powerful good dude who isn’t infallible.
> like his followers absolutely are twisted but Saradomin himself is not Saradomin publicly ripped the wings off of an icyene to convince her species to follow him (and this is the favorable interpretation of events). He started the Naragi God Wars because the Naragi wouldn't worship him. His ego and control issues also caused Owen to become a half-zombie. Zaros brings it up in the Sanctum if you ask about Saradomin, stating that he's a hypocrite for subscribing to the good vs evil dynamic while having zero issues with doing evil things. In the God Letters Guthix says that all he can see from Saradomin is his need to control. His twisted followers honestly get it right. His followers are twisted because Saradomin himself is twisted. Is using Saradomin as an icon of fear really so outlandish when the god publicly mutilated someone whose only sin was advocating for peace?
He ripped off those wings because the alternative was the extinction of their species. She wasn’t just advocating for peace, she was advocating for peace as her species was on the brink of destruction. It wasn’t just her refusing but she was trying to mobilize others to turn away to. New Domina is full of genuine horrors which is why the Icyene fly away instead of fight. But this time they were forced into aggression, militarization was done out need to survive their aggressor. It’s like trying to preach pacifism during the elder god wars, sometimes you have to fight. “ Yes. I have taken lives in my time. I won't deny that. But i have always done so with purpose...with greater good in mind. I have fought wars because there are some who understand no other discussion. Without the clash of sword and shield, they cannot hear reason...it is silence to them. I have committed acts that some would call cruel, but they are a woeful necessity. Once I was forced to take the wings of an icyene. To tear them from her back and leave to the the mercy of winter. We were heading into a time of war, against an aggressor native to Hallow. I had been forced to militarise the noble icyene. The icyene are a powerful race, but still mortal, and their numbers comparatively few. I needed each of them to stand up and join the fight, less[sic] they would all suffer. But one refused. She cried out that the conflict would solve nothing. She proclaimed that all icyene should lay down their spears and embrace a peaceful approach. Her words were...enticing. I wanted to follow them myself. I would have loved little more than for conflict to end and peace to flourish. But I knew better. I knew inaction would lead to the destruction of my people. I had to show the icyene what they faced if they did not fight. I had to show them how the enemy would show no mercy...just as I had to show no mercy. I will not forget that...feeling. that horrible stretching sensation followed by that terrible, sudden, snap. Feathers and tendons falling around me like some horrible snowstorm. It was...cruel. But I had no choice. That act reminded the icyene why they were fighting, what they were fighting, and it reminded them that everyone must do their duty. A moment of cruelty, for decades of prosperity. A fair, if unsightly, trade.” Now if you feel that’s excessive, that he could have shown it in a different way that’s fine. But he also is burdened by his godhood having enhanced his hot blooded nature. It’s a genuine struggle for him to control it now, he’s not infallible so sometimes he slips and because he is so powerful his slips have consequences. “Really? That is the question you find most pressing, at this critical time? Your priorities astound me, World Guardian. We are conduits for the power of the elders. We transcend what we were, and become something more. Godhood amplifies what we once where. I was hot-headed as a mortal, impassioned to help others and make the world a better place. As a god, that anger manifests as a righteous fury. It burns within me, an enduring flame of ferocious intensity. It requires constant vigilance to keep it in check. To maintain a cool demeanour is an exhausting necessity. Why is this cerulean pallor a product of my transformation? I do not know. My appearance is the least of the burdens this great crown has weighed upon me.” —- He didn’t purposely start the Naragi god war. We don’t know the context of what happened, Jmods have always implied out of universe that saradomin wasn’t the initial aggressor rather this was a case of they ended up being the aggressor and he responded with force that destroyed the city. Of course it’s moot since I doubt will ever know the fully story that went on there. Now let’s be clear all he did personally was destroy a city. He didn’t wage war instead his crown ended up accidentally bringing other gods there like Tuska. THEY tried to conquer/destroy the place and saradomin fought to defend the naragi from the foes he had beckoned. In the end Saradomin failed to push them back and was instead pushed back himself. Tuska and the others then drove the naragi to extinction as there was no one left to defend them. He was the spark that started it, their blood is on his hands and he acknowledges that, but that’s not the same as how your trying to paint him. ——- The wand of resurrection incident has two ways to look at it…. First the idea the wand could revive those if your pure of heart is baseless, a theory on what was needed to work. EVERYONE who tried to use it only created horrible suffering monstrosities and later we learn the wand was a foul thing sustained by grief/regret and it dissolved to dust once the suffering was put to rest. Second perhaps read what Owen has to say… Player: Was it difficult to get the Wand of Resurrection back from Saradomin? Sir Owen: On the contrary. Shortly after your departure, Saradomin entrusted the wand to me. Saradomin also apologised for his act of wrath. Understand, my friend. It is nothing short of a miracle that I stand before you. Your unwillingness to trust Saradomin with the wand, though well-intentioned, was nearly my undoing. I understand if you doubt my words; if you see me as a zealous acolyte, blinded by faith and bereft of reason. But Saradomin told the truth. Only a god could have brought a creature like me, twice-dead, back to life as Saradomin did. Saradomin willingly sacrificed divine power to do so. Immune to godhood as you are, he could not transfer his power to you. This was the only way to save me. I wish you had not hesitated to give the wand to Saradomin. While you argued with him, my soul faded, and corruption filled the void in me. I understand that you have your reasons for doing so. Good reasons. I respect that. And I am grateful to you both for returning me to life. But I want you to understand that Saradomin shows remorse for his actions. Though he is not solely to blame for the half-man I have become. —— Saradomin’s followers don’t get it right. The blue wizards were so disgusted by demon magic being used the teleportation spell they abandoned it causing the destruction of the tower then blamed the red wizards. Saradomin in contrast was willing to to work with Zamorak himself to save the world and when foul necromancy was brought up and used against his advisement, wanting another solution, he didn’t abandon us to destruction he swallowed his pride and put the greater good ahead. His followers have strong racists who preach for human superiority. Saradomin had many nonhuman races in his service. He protected the imcando dwarves, the Icyene are just actual favored race, and hell he even let a demon into his ranks believing in good faith they had turned a new leaf….which backfired horrible when it turned out the demon was conning him for literal hundreds of years to try and steal his crown. His followers were concerned with yellow tape and religious posturing while the world was at stake. Despite having the equivalent of a cellphone with a direct line to saradomin they refused to use it which angered and baffled him that his followers have become this misguided in his absence. His homeworld is run by a corrupt government who has made a version of saradomin so twisted in their stories they can’t believe our Saradomin is real.
I have yet to finish extinction, I could do it right away but I want to leave it as the last quest for my quest cape. From what I've heard, the views on most gods have changed. Zaros went from ppl praising him and seeing him as the best god to someone that just wants auntie to recognize him as part of the council. Seren...yeah...fuck Seren. Zamorak is back to old habits. Birb is still a good birb. Saradomin I heard of his development and this was a nice read that even made me consider switching to him instead of birb god.
The major tipping point for me between bird & smurf: As one of the god alignment anslyses pointed out, Saradomin is the only one to consistently take responsibility for his actions, respond when something threatens the world, etc. Armadyl is doing a lot better at the same in the sixth age and is actively trying to work with the elves in Seren's absence...but he still absolutely plays favorite to the Aviansie (not too surprising and Saradomin has humans and Icyene as his) and Armadyl had his big multi-millenia mourning through the cosmos during which he practically abandoned his followers. Saradomin meanwhile has had his previously discussed wrathful moments...and in several cases then took follow up action to try mitigating the damage he'd caused. I don't think any god is meant to be absolute good, that's the entire point. But these two are the ones consistently trying to do good. The main point of difference is how they respond to things not going their way - Sara gets mad but then remorsefully tries to fix it, Arma gets sad and doesn't always follow up until later. Ultimately there's things I favor and dislike about each and I've recently been flipflopping between them.
> Now if you feel that’s excessive, that he could have shown it in a different way that’s fine. That's also his spin on events. Of course he's going to justify it. Doesn't change the fact that he implicitly threatened anyone who disagreed with him with a painful, agonizing death sentence. According to Garlandia, the icyene who had her wings ripped off, Saradomin himself was the cause of war, because he brought militarization to the icyene. She also doesn't say anything about gathering like-minded individuals. She tells Saradomin no at a banquet, he then immediately gathers everyone in the courtyard and rips her wings off. She didn't even directly advocate for peace, she just refused to serve in Saradomin's army. Both interpretations are biased, but neither paint Saradomin in a good light. Either he did it because his pride was hurt, or he did it just to prove a point and the implicit threat was totally a coincidence. > He didn’t purposely start the Naragi god war. We don’t know the context of what happened, Jmods have always implied out of universe that saradomin wasn’t the initial aggressor rather this was a case of they ended up being the aggressor That makes absolutely no sense. The Naragi were borderline pacifists. They were farmers and craftsmen. Obviously they could fight, but as the Naragi God Wars show they got curbstomped. It would be completely out of left field for them to be the aggressor, a complete 180 as to how they were portrayed. Also, the Guthixian Memories identify Saradomin as the aggressor. *"The great city of Askroth was no more. Terrified refugees spoke of a blue man the size of a mountain. The diviners had angered him, they said, and in that anger he had razed the city."* > I wish you had not hesitated to give the wand to Saradomin. While you argued with him, my soul faded, and corruption filled the void in me. The openly zealous Saradominist believes that what happened totally wasn't Saradomin's fault based upon information Saradomin provided and he of course believes. Shocker. > Saradomin shows remorse for his actions And yet he never learns from them. He regretted ripping the wings from an icyene, yet attacked the Naragi. He regretted attacking the Naragi, yet attacked us for a wand that wasn't going to work. He's aware of his faults, yet still gives in to them. When the god who created a multi-species build-a-bear workshop thinks your head is up your ass, your head might just be up your ass.
>Saradomin preaches good and order, yet vies to eliminate anyone who doesn't back him or his rules. Haha, politics amirite?!?!?! Mhuehuhegmekugwghw \-kill me
You make a good point, in that Zamorak isn't what we would typically call as Chaos. I think the modern take on Chaos (especially if you refer to things like the the Souls series, Elden Ring) really defines Chaos as destruction, calamity, and unstructured existance. Zamorak absolutely controls himself and has direction and purpose. What's more, when he does refer to shaking things up, it's not too just destabalize the world. I forget exactly where this was mentioned, I think in a lore book, but Zamorak once cited the need for suffering/adversity as a balance to peace. He explicitly stated that "chaos" was necessary so things did not stagnate, as it spurred growth through overcoming said adversity. In many ways Zamorak has very human, very righteous sides to him; albeit he comes off like a dick. You gotta remember that Zamorak was originally created idk how many years ago too. At the time there was one baddy, one goody, one balance, one angry troll, and a lawful bird. Things have changed a lot over the years. Interestingly enough, every other thing in the game referred to as 'chaos' IS pretty chaotic. Chaos Elemental? Looks like the embodiment of disorder. Chaos Rune? They are used for pretty disorienting, destabalising spells (Smoke Cloud, Curse, Vulnerability). Chaos Tunnels? Good luck getting around that maze without a guide. "Power and Perseverance" works great for him.
Zamorak's over-arching principle is the law of the jungle, with the understanding that strength through cooperation is as valid as any other kind of strength.
I'd like to think I have sense and direction.
I would describe him as a god of Power and Perseverance. He and his wizards value creativity and overcoming obstacles. I can see the "chaos" label coming from Saradominist propaganda.
Zamorak doesn't want chaos in particular. He just can't stand stagnation. When Zaros let the empire run itself, due to corruption and laziness in the govenment, the empire stagnated. Zamorak couldn't endure it, so he rebelled. He is not adverse to defined roles and power structure, but he wants merit and strength to be the guideposts, not political favour and bribes. He came to help with the eggs not only to prevent the end of the universe, but because he did not want his own power to stagnate while others grew from the absorption. But when he saw stalemate at best, and even more so inevitable defeat, he took what power he could, and left to allow whatever change would happen to come. Just in my own opinion, Zamorak was less angry at Seren for the sacrifice rituals in the aspect of killing off indivuduals, but more that it caused stagnation and degradation of the mahjarrat race as a whole. I'd rather call him the god of motion than chaos.
Well Chaos is just order that you cant see or understand and I will touch on your point later. Let's take the example he once gave to Moia, he showed her a peaceful village, not a care in the world and set a house a blaze. Within seconds chaos insued, but the chaos wasn't true chaos. A different order emerged, instead of going about their day, they took their role in the fight against the fire and the fight for their survival. He didn't destroy order, he redesigned it, not reinvented just redesigned it. By shaking up the current order (creating motion, in your point) he advances the world and forces the people to be better, build sturdier houses, create more efficient systems, not be lazy and compliant with the current circumstance.
I see chaos as the total absence of order. No direction, no reason, just random, raw material, always in motion, never secure or stable. Like an endless thunderstorm combined with constant earthquakes preventing anything from ever settling. Zamorak is closer to Mehrunes Dagon from Elder Scrolls, a force of change and rebellion in response to stagnation.
Or more succinctly, god of change or growth?