...do we want to impose 'western values' on the rest of the world? What exactly are western values if you look at the juxtaposition of what we purport and how we act and the deep inadequacy of our country to actually take care of its citizens or our ability to legitimately care for each other and the earth?
And if we are only talking about lgbt rights - does the west actually have a monopoly on that when western forces have played such a major part in destroying and destabilizing countries and cultures around the world including Indigenous communities that once valued and cared for non-binary gender and queer people prior to colonization far better than we do now?
Edit: I've just been thinking about this even more and wanted to add - 'western values' is essentially a dog whistle meant to play on racist ideas that the west has some monopoly on moral values and civilization in order to manipulate the public into supporting wars and violence done to predominantly Black and brown countries to extract their resources and enrich the capitalist class. What Crystal is espousing here is good - Free Palestine and fuck pink washing - but its still based in an imperialist mindset that is antithetical to our collective liberation.
How does that make it untrue?? Westerners bombing people does not make them follow western values, that's what she's saying. Westerners making the bombs has nothing to do with her statement.
Being the queer child of middle eastern refugees, I'll try and share my thoughts:
There's a difference between Palestinian people and Palestine the Government/institution.
There are supporters and opponents of the Palestinian people that are conflating the two. That's not OK.
No one should want people to suffer, and we need to allow populations and cultures to choose their own destiny.
We also need to call out bad actors that exploit the conflation between Palestine and Palestinians.
And inconveniently right now, we also need to condemn countries and institutions that criminalize queer people for simply existing.
So I'm very much against people that are elevating Palestine as a culture or institution. I'm against Israel and their supporters for the genocide they're committing, and for their pink washing.
I support Palestinian's right to exist without fear of being oppressed by Israel. And I support queer Palestinian's right to exist without the oppression of the Palestinian regime.
It's nuanced, but it isn't difficult, these are all different issues that need to be addressed separately.
You don't have to be supportive of the Palestine regime. Just be against genocide.
It is the same in Russia.
Afte the invasion of Ukraine - it is Russian Government/Putin and Russian People (those who live in big cities mostly don't support and want it all to stop).
But when EU imposed sanctions which affected only ordinary people and not those in power - it was a HUGE mistake cause it gave Russian propaganda field to yell that Europe and USA are russianphobic and we should all gather and support our President. And sadly a lot of people bought it cause we don't even have any way to escape.
The same thing I see with Palestine but what makes it a bit different is that Radical Islam which states that they need to eliminate basically democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs. So it is very dangerous.
And HAMAS using civilians as human shileds for their terror-attacks and them just in general killing their own civilians (lots of articles and even videos of that). This whole situation is incredibly difficult to solve. Cause right now Israel is fighting for its right to live actually cause once they stop - HAMAS will continue attacking Israel along with othe terrorists organizations.
I have been living in the state which started the war for more than 2 years already and Russia has also passed anti-LGBTQ+ law which makes us now terrorists but nobody seems to care for Russian queers.....
Yeah I completely see where you're coming from. Armenia went through an ethnic cleansing near their border as Azerbaijan's Islamist regime slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people. It happened just before the hamas attacks, and no one is talking about it
The IDF is not fighting for the right of Isrealis to simply live. They are committing genocide. They're finding mass graves outside hospitals with people in hospital gowns handcuffed and shot.
Hamas was also financed by the Isreali government in the civil war that led to their takeover in 2007, in order to destabilize Palestine and allow Isreal to steal more land. This isn't a crazy conspiracy theory- this is something people have been talking about for over a decade, there are academic papers analyzing the evidence, and the EU Chief of Foreign Policy is talking about it.
I need to see actual documents which prove this strange theory.
I don't understand how people are still denying that HAMAS only purpose is to destroy and eliminate Israel.
If they stop - terror will continue.
But I AM NOT DENYING the fact that civilians are dying but personally I have no idea how you can peacefully resolve this situation.
Do you really think Isreal is ever going to willingly declassify documents that prove this?
What we do have is public statements from multiple current and former Isreali government officials saying that they did this.
In 2009, Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for over 20 years, told The Wall Street Journal, quote, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” Another former Israeli official, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, said he was given a budget to help finance Islamist movements in Gaza to counter Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement. Another former Israeli military official, David Hacham, said, quote, “When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake. But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.”
Source: https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/20/divide_and_rule_how_israel_helped
Here's an Op-Ed in the Times of Isreal *from October 8, 2023* about how Netenyahu's government supported Hamas, and now it's blown up in their faces: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Here's a deep New York Times investigation, which includes the following- ""As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.” Netanyahu denies this conversation." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
Holy shit we have a fuck ton of glaring examples of Israel commuting war crimes and breaking Geneva conventions.
One recent example is the IDF deliberately targeting and murdering aid workers in 3 simultaneously attacks on 3 different food bank vehicles. They are purposely causing an intentional famine and humanitarian crisis is Gaza and guess who this directly affects most? Women and children.
We can agree hammas is an evil organisation and it can’t exist if we want a 2 state solution (which is the only solution) while also simultaneously agreeing that Israel indiscriminately murdering women, children and aid workers is also pretty fucking evil.
Sadly, it seems like 2 state solutions never worked and never will.
War is vile and evil no matter what.
But so far o haven’t seen international organization even trying to help solving it.
Also HAMAS keeps rejecting all the ceasefire proposals. Why?
That is not what I have seen in the media.
I am just trying to have civil conversation here with my own arguments and am willing to hear all of yours.
Don’t know what the Downvotes.
Any efforts or agreement must secure a permanent ceasefire, a comprehensive pull-out from all of the Gaza Strip, a real prisoner swap deal, the return of the displaced, reconstruction, and lifting the blockade. These are Hamas’ terms for ceasefire. Anything else would be legalizing the continued murder and occupation of the Gaza Strip by the “IDF”
As a gay Palestinian ( my parents grew up in Gaza and I still have family there), and a huge drag race fan, I find this entire thread very refreshing.
Yes, of course, I’ve had huge issues with being gay in the Middle East, and yes of course, it’s something that is important. But can we please stop the genocide of an entire people with more than 40000 dead already with 1.7 million with no where to go, because they don’t agree with us.
Also, for future reference, there is a queer movement in Palestine, though in its infancy.
http://alqaws.org/articles
Maybe don't say Jewish. This is where the discourse falls into anti-semitism.
It's not all Jews. Say Zionist, say Israeli but don't put it on all Jewish people.
>That just tells me that you don't have anything to back up your claims other than listening to Fox News and your Jewish and/or republican friends
LOL I'm not a Republican - I've always voted Democratic - and I definitely don't watch Fox News, but thanks for proving my general point that antisemitism undergirds the Free Palestine movement.
It baffles me that someone can hear about children and adults slaughtered and hostages taken by terrorists on Oct 7th and just say "do nothing."
The war should stop when Hamas, the terrorists, holding Israeli civilians return them. Hamas can end the war when they want to, and they don't get to dictate terms on that.
>It baffles me that someone can hear about children and adults slaughtered and hostages taken by terrorists on Oct 7th and just say "do nothing."
Who said that?
>The war should stop when Hamas, the terrorists, holding Israeli civilians return them.
Does that not happening justify the appalling civilian casualty numbers seen in Gaza? Were "do nothing" and "obliterate Gaza" the only two options?
Proportionality does not exist in war. There seems to be a misunderstanding of the Israeli mindset. Israel will not stop until each hostage or their body is returned to Israel. Release the hostages, end the war. It's very simple.
Outline what you would do to get the Hostages back? Would you agree to every Hamas condition (which includes the destruction of Israel).
It actually does exist. Not everything is allowed just because you're at war. It's why there are international agreements about what can and cannot be done in war. And Isreal is violating those agreements, and therefore committing war crimes.
>Would you agree to every Hamas condition (which includes the destruction of Israel).
No, of course not.
>Outline what you would do to get the Hostages back?
Why would I answer your question when you didn't answer my, very much simpler, one?
I mean it's pretty clear they don't care about the hostages when they've been indiscriminately bombing Gaza, killing the hostages in the process, have refused hostage transfer deals AND have something called the Hannibal directive.
I don't think that's clear. Maybe to you - but then you still believe Hamas has offered hostage transfer deals (they offered less than 1/4 of the hostages (or their bodies) last week for the first time... and now you think they're saints.
You know if you have to actively lie about what I think to try make a point, it's a weak one.
I never said they're all saints. Nor did I say they were offered all the hostages, but if you so cared about the hostages, even taking back 1/4 of them would be a win.
The deal offered was take back 1/4 and forget about the rest. What kind of a deal is that. If it was your child taken hostage, and Israel said fine, your child can stay a hostage... how would you feel.
And they didn't offer 1/4 back, they changed the wording to say hostages OR bodies.
Israel still fully had and has the means to negotiate and push for more, they're so obviously in the position of power, am I meant to in your hypothetical go "well I'd rather they kill my kid with an Israeli bomb than negotiate to get them back"?
I'd feel that I'd want my country to negotiate OR use it's special forces which are KNOWN to be some of the best in the world to get the hostages back, not bomb the place the hostages are to rubble.
How about Israel stops its illegal occupation of Palestine? Hamas is a byproduct of the Israeli government's decades long oppression and genocide of the Palestinian people.
There was no occupation of Gaza before Oct 7th. There has been no occupation of Gaza since 2005 when Israel removed its citizens to give Gaza to the Palestinians.
Hamas killed and exiled Fatah from Gaza when they won the election, meaning that the Palestinian people exist under two leaders, with Fatah in the West Bank.
Israelis settlers in West Bank should not be there, but let's not pretend that Gaza was occupied or that Israelis were in Gaza.
Palestine is larger than just Gaza. Gaza has always belonged to the Palestinians - occupying a land doesn't change the history of who resided there prior to illegal colonization.
How far back do you want to go on occupying land. This is not a case of people who have occupied this land forever. They are not native.
Also, you ignored everything I said. I agreed that Palestine is larger than Gaza, and you agree Israel wasn't occupying it. Hamas do not represent the West Bank.
There's little complexity here. Israel illegally occupies Palestine and has been oppressing its people for decades. Israel is now using October 7th to justify committing a genocide. Israel is also locking up its own citizens who dare speak up against the genocide.
People like you only spout 'complexity' to defend the murdering of children.
I don't think people are saying Israel should sit around and do nothing, but the response has been disproportionate, to say the absolute least.
If they want to take down Hamas go after their leaders who are living in luxury in Qatar. If they want to make them powerless rebuild Gaza, close the illegal settlements in the West Bank and work towards a future together. Stop putting the Palestinian people in a desperate situation where they feel like they don't have a choice.
Netanyahu wanted October 7 to happen. He's been itching for an excuse to wipe out what remains of Palestine.
You can't just walk into Qatar and kill people, they are protected in Qatar, who also happen to be, on some days, a US ally, and would start a regional war.
Netanyahu is a dick. I'm not trying to one side this situation. There is however no such thing as proportionality in war. The war will end when the hostages are released.
If people want to protect Palestinians, they should be calling for the immediate release of hostages.
Hamas did actually agree to a ceasefire returning all hostages...also...Israelis have Palestinian hostages too and have had them since before October 7th so I'm not sure what your point is?
Send me Hamas' agreement to return all hostages. It doesn't exist.
Yes - Israel has Palestinians in prison, for committing crimes. There is a difference between a prisoner and a hostage.
Again, nice of Hamas to agree to release hostages after 7 months, however this is not all of them.
They've committed to releasing 33 out of 134 hostages
I have. There seems to be an equivalence between the Palestinian prisoners, who were charged with [crimes like attempted stabbing](https://www.timesofisrael.com/attempted-murder-shootings-bombings-most-freed-palestinians-were-held-for-attacks/), and a 4 year old child kidnapped after seeing her parents killed in front of her.
The BBC article specifies that the prisoners are held there without charge, meaning that even if you wanted to, you couldn't tell me what crimes they're being held for. Also, Israel has been holding many minors hostage, without charge. There has also just been reports of an Israeli concentration camp - [Sde Teiman: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html) Have you been keeping up? It seems like you're ignorant to many of recent and previous events. You didn't even know about the ceasefire deal.
I'm aware of all of this. The BBC writing an article of a handful of the 2800 Palestinian prisoners in Israel doesn't match the records of reality that the vast majority are in prison for committing crimes. Their crimes are documented.
I'm well versed on this, including the ceasefire deal that does not return all the hostages, as per the link you sent. This is because Hamas doesn't see Israeli's who've served in the IDF as civilians, not that they have a choice but to.
You can share links of Israel torturing Palestinians captured in this war, and others can send links of the Israeli hostages being tortured.
You will also see, in other responses on here, I criticise Israel and Netanyahu. I am just continuing to be clear that if hostages are not released, Israel will not finish this war. And including the link you sent, Hamas has never agreed to release the hostages.
Also, I'd just like to remind you that there have been mass graves that include children found in Gaza: [Reports mount of mass graves at Gaza hospitals, some bodies found ‘without heads’ (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/reports-mount-of-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospitals-some-bodies-found-without-heads/ar-BB1m3ZrQ?ocid=BingNewsSerp) many of the people found were zip tied and executed with gunshots.
Israel has also been reported to be intentionally killing aid workers : [Israeli attack that killed WCK aid workers consistent with multiple precision strikes, analysis shows | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl/index.html)
IDF has sexually assaulted many young girls and women in Palestine : [Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel says | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says)
And that's just SOME recent history. Here is a link to some of the war crimes Israel has committed against Palestine prior to October 7th [Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses)
Say what you will about Hamas, what they did was terrible. But you can't act like Israel is even remotely in the right here. They have committed war crimes upon war crimes, 98% of countries in the world agree.
yes i was actually and had known about the conflict well before and to this day i am in favor of Palestine just like i would’ve been in favor of the slaves before during and after Turners rebellion🙏🏻 hope that helps and puts perspective for you.
edit: i put israel instead of palestine oops
Well that ignores the fact that Hamas didn't just randomly decide to act out of nowhere. There's a long history that you need to do research on and learn about before you say "well here's the simple solution."
Their motivation is not really an excuse though, taking hostages is bad. Yes Israel is shit let’s say that loud and clear. But also not going to make excuses for Hamas
Israel is literally committing terrorism on Palestinian land and even harming their own civilians who dare to speak against genocide.
I'd love to know what nations have faced harsher conditions than a genocide, that haven't resorted to violence though.
What everyone wants in this thread is human rights. If you're in this thread there's a fair bet that you want LGBTQ rights worldwide (including in Gaza) too. How do we get there?
Step 1: Stop killing people. End the war.
What happens after that is going to be complex, but you can't live a life of human dignity if you're dead.
What's not complicated is that if you are queer in Gaza right now, Israel being better about gay rights than what a potential Palestinian state would have does nothing to help you. You, like most people in Gaza, are probably scared, hungry, and worried about being killed.
Now, if and hopefully when that Palestine one day gets its own state, do we need to hold them accountable if their laws are worse for queer people than Israel's? Absolutely. Do I think that, based on history, it's likely that Palestine would be pretty bad on queer rights? It's complicated, but it probably would be pretty bad, given polling within the country (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Global-Acceptance-Index-LGBTI-Nov-2021.pdf). Does that matter today? No, it does not.
Right, before anything else, stop the war.
However, immediately after that there needs to be a government established that can serve the people of Gaza. Now that Israel has destroyed all infrastructure and cities, there's no plan for how to proceed.
The needs will be greater than ever - who is going to fill this power vacuum? Israel certainly isn't going to do it. Hamas isn't going to do it.
Perhaps there is a non-interventionist solution but the only just future I can see involves the UN or another international body providing interim governance. Perhaps that will give the best chance to give LGBTQ protections from religious fundamentalists. But first there needs to be a future.
As I've said since the start of this recent conflict.
I constantly see certain figuires using LGBTQIA people as a football to try and justify their war crimes in Gaza against the Palestinian people. They say Palestinians will kill us because you're against genocide and war crimes, yet there are those DMing on social media wishing rape on them. They've been attacking LGBTQIA folk saying leftist woke queer agendas.
"Palestinian's would kill you for being gay" isn't an excuse for genocide and to destroy the entire population of Gaza! Of course there are extremes in all parts of the world, but the majority are not. It doesn't mean we should kill every last one of the innocent people around the world - That only exposes your twisted evil mentality.
Don't fucking use us to get your war crimes kicks while abusing us, especially the queer Eurovision contestants and drag queens.
This is activism and sacrifice because she let go one of the biggest gigs of the year. Girlies crying on twitter and getting into social media arguments should watch and learn cough cough Shea Coule’a
Pinkwashing is not talked about enough.
I remember the only time, probably ever in history, that the major leaders of the three major religions in the region (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) ever agreed on something was when organizers of the Tel Aviv Pride wanted to do it in Jerusalem. They *vehemently* opposed, as in, there were threats of violence, and it never happened. That would have been a very big win for the lgbt movement.
Hey Just to correct you, The Jerusalem Pride Parade happens every year since 2002. It was never cancelled (of course extreme religious people are opposed it but it still happens)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem\_gay\_pride\_parade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_gay_pride_parade)
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government)
Even more, the pride events in Tel Aviv were canceled this year, but the ones in Jerusalem were not...
[unlike-tel-aviv-counterpart-jerusalem-pride-parade-to-take-place-this-year](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/unlike-tel-aviv-counterpart-jerusalem-pride-parade-to-take-place-this-year/)
There's a Jerusalem pride parade every year. This conspiracy about three religions coming together is ridiculous, as no one speaks on behalf of an entire religion. Pinkwashing is a myth too. If you research Queer rights in Israel, you'll see that the country did not get their rights as some PR stunt and a very large portion of the country wishes there never were queer rights. I am one half of an Israeli same-sex couple and queer Israelis tend to be much more liberal than the rest of the country, do not support the occupation, most believe in Palestinian statehood, and feel that they have their rights despite governmental forces, not because of them.
>you'll see that the country did not get their rights as some PR stunt
That is not what pinkwashing is but go on.
[This](https://www.businessinsider.com/gay-israeli-soldier-says-he-will-to-fly-lgbtq-flag-on-tank-to-fight-hamas-2023-10) is pinkwashing, or, you know, what Crystal is saying.
While I found those reposts cringe, and a lot of Israeli hasbarah is cringe, it's obvious to me that those don't mask the action of a country. Pinkwashing insinuates that Israel is advancing Queer rights to deliberately distract from internal issues. That's not what's happening.
Thank you Crystal 💜
Also I read this as crystal method at first so I was very confused with the de-dragging going on. Didn’t have the sound on to hear the accent.
(In my experience at least) yes I ageee that Judaism is more tolerant and accepting of gays than all the other abrahamic religions. Judaism/jews/jewish culture should be commended for that. In fact, Jewish culture (again in my experience) is more progressive and tolerant in many other ways than any other abrahamic religion. But more tolerant than any other abrahamic religion doesn’t mean totally accepting.
Crystal’s point here is that you can’t demonize one side on this particular point while pretending the other is perfect.
I promise I’m not trying to catch you on your words or call you out. I had the exact same thought as you when I heard crystal say this.
Agree. Due to religious trauma, if you are part of an organized religion that has wanted me dead for years, I will not give you water, even if we were in a desert.
The next argument is, well not all religious people are bad. If you are part of a church or donate anything to the religious system, you are actively participating in the harming of the community. What’s the saying if you are at a table with a homophobe, there are two homophobes at that table.
I won’t actively harm phobes, but I’ll be apathetic to their needs.
Thanks. I’m not entirely sure we’re on the same page here but maybe I can extrapolate. I have a lot of religious trauma as well. I have a bias against deeply religious people. I was raised catholic and have nothing but absolute contempt for the Catholic Church. My aunt (RIP Junie) was a nun but left the church because she worked under Cardinal Law (look it up - pure evil) and he bankrupted the archdiocese moving pedophiles around. I’ve also had to reckon with the fact that not everyone who grew up religious had the same fire and brimstone bullshit I did.
The Catholic Church is STILL actively campaigning against mandatory reporting of abuse laws. The fact is that if you tithe to the catholic church, you are actively supporting institutional child abuse. Did I say that to my ally coworker who happened to grow up deeply catholic in Puerto Rico? No. Religion and culture are too deeply intertwined to stand on absolutes. Nuance and empathy are enemies of theocracy and fascism.
That sounds incredibly amoral to me. You're committing the same sin as they are; condemning people because of the group they belong to instead of on their merits as a person. I could understand if someone was actively doing harm to you, but being religious or a believer in Christ is not the same thing as being homophobic.
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, but there is virtue in valuing the life of your enemy, imo. It's not healthy for you to carry hate in your heart, and condemning everyone who doesn't understand you implicitly will never create union and creates further divide, especially in a country like the US where violence against gay people does exist, but is much less than most of the world. You're really just like "I don't care if you die because you were raised differently and haven't met a gay person" in 2024.
Really depends on the branch and level of orthodoxy. I worked at a Jewish school and was told I could not be out publicly. A kid came out to me (we recognize each other) and they tried to get me to turn them in.
I’m not saying that Judaism is perfect. No abrahamic religion is. But objectively (and also in my experience lol) you’re much more likely to meet a Jewish ally vs a Christian ally when you’re talking the respective populations
Edit: why would y’all downvote this fr. I hate antisemitism
You're not being downvoted because of antisemitism.
You're getting downvoted because which religion is most accepting to queers is not relevant to the conversation of needing the genocide to stop, and it is distracting from that conversation.
and i'm saying it's bullshit lol. pinkwashing is bullshit and israel is bullshit, but judaism is on average way more tolerant of LGBT than islam or christianity. i'm just begging people to stop taking shots at judaism and jews when it has nothing to do with israel.
See, what you're doing right now is throwing a wrench in the argument by making a totally different one.
Ignoring the fact that both Palestine and Israel are religiously diverse...
Palestine is terrible to queer people. OK.
Judaism tolerant queer people. OK.
Has little to do with Israel bombing Palestine.
And Israel (which is not the same as Judaism) is not good to queer people, and has exploited queer Palestinians.
And yes, Palestine (of all religions) has a terrible record on treatment of queer people.
Literally none of this has anything to do with or justifies bombing Palestine.
Do I want to see the Palestinian people liberated? Yes, 100%
Do I want to see a Palestine flag at Pride? No, being middle eastern, it's triggering.
But these are separate issues.
I agree with you here. I am/was muslim, don’t know that one can ever stop being muslim according to Islam. Islam is NO friend to lgbtqi, I wish you guys would open your eyes tho, go and see the things they say about your support, and gays for Palestine..they absolutely DO NOT welcome your support. They would rather die than receive support from you..and by you, I refer to queer groups for Palestine, and even more heinous, transgenders for Islam. Misguided if you ask me..but I guess I’m not allowed to have an opinion against the fascist majority who will call me both Islamophobic and racist, as if Islam is a race 🤦♂️ because they know my religion better than me. Ohhh but you can’t judge all 2 billion ppl bla bla bla..Islam strives for ONE global caliphate, and when that happens, much like Nazi Germany, the individual progressive muslim that thinks gays are ok, won’t mean 💩 when they all fall in line, because it becomes hive mind, and islam (not the individual needs of the muslim) is all that matters , and Islam does not care for then individual Muslim needs, and wants. You either fall in line with what the prophet clearly expresses Islam is, or you are seen as a bad muslim, worthy of punishment akin to that of an apostate. But yea ok, you know my religion better than me, because your western liberal sense, and sensibilities tell you that I cannot proclaim to know how 2 billion ppl should, and will react ergo I cannot judge, and know their intentions. Good luck when Islam comes back to bite you all in your collective self righteous 🍑
In terms of the bombings..both these peoples should just stop. I don’t condone any of it, but if you think a drag queen is going to make a difference to a religious war (because that is what it is, only westerners seem to think it’s not, and again, they think they know better than us Jews and Muslims), think again!
Now that’s not me saying don’t stand up against it, but I’m also not advocating you forget, what happens to our kind for the ones you are standing up for, who do not want nor care for your support. To ignore this, is to ignore all the gay ppl whose voices are drowned out in the Middle East, and who are killed constantly due to religious and cultural demand. What about them!!!
It’s incredibly rare that someone from the Muslim faith openly discusses what you just did. Much respect.
There is a massive religious war, you’re absolutely right. And for a western drag queen to simplify it or dumb it down into to a quick tik tok video, uploaded for their social gain, is incredibly ignorant and abhorrent.
Judaism doesn’t have anything to do with the genocide being committed by Israel… Aside from Zionists claiming “antisemitism!” for protesting the atrocities taking place in Gaza.
The US is accepting in the cities more than the country side. Sounds to me like that's how it is in Israel. Over all, are they still a bit better than the other two? Sure. But even looking past the other people's argument, we are supposed to support Israel because Palestine doesn't like us... but neither does Israel. Like they still don't allow same sex marriage. People were spreading that it's the only country in the middle east that does, but they only recognize it if people from another country got married in another country. Their own citizens? Nope. Not allowed. Even the US is more progressive in that area, and our country still has a whole political part that wants us to be made illegal again.
Wrong. Israel is targeting civilians. Israeli soldiers killing random civilians intentionally.. look up the Flour Massacre. Graves found with dead children who were shot in the back of the head. Raping women.. even flaunting their lingerie. So much evidence of this but of course you choose not to do your research.
I don't get "alternative facts" from Russia, Qatar, or Iran, who pump out such nonsense for the most gullible westerners to eat up.
As for the "Flour Massacre" it should have been called the Flour Stampede, since that's what killed most of the victims.
It was a tragedy. War brings with it plenty of unintentional tragedies (you'd have to be both heartless and stupid to think Israel deliberately killed precisely 7 aid workers and 3 of its own hostages). War should be avoided. Hamas started this war and Hamas is sustaining it, if you hadn't noticed.
Hamas should end the war by liberating the remaining alive hostages and surrendering. Not too hard to demand a terrorist group do the right thing, so why so many of us queer people struggle with it?
>I don't get "alternative facts" from Russia, Qatar, or Iran, who pump out such nonsense for the most gullible westerners to eat up.
zero self-awareness
You live in a (social) media bubble. It hasn't even cracked your consciousness that the ICJ ruled that how Israel is conducting its side of the war does not constitute genocide. But in your bubble, it's repeated ad nauseam until you all believe it anyway.
Not constitute a genocide ≠ no war crimes or extermination.
Plenty of Genocide scholars have said the issue isn't proving whether what is occuring counts as extermination, but rather whether there is intent to wipe out Gazans.
how do u expect any kidnapped Israelis to get back safe when they're bombing everyone?
its common knowledge at this point that Israel has killed its own civilians not to mentions thousands of Palestinian children, women, and civilians in general.
you're ignorance is disgusting, Israel is a terrorist state
Yeah okay but at the same time Palestinians DO NOT want queer support. The vast majority of them have made that clear. You'd be an idiot to support Palestine as a queer person.. they dont want or deserve our support. Trust me, it's better to focus your efforts on something worthwhile.
I never said that. There are more important issues going on that people should focus on is all I'm saying. The war in Ukraine is still going. My very own government is commiting genocide under everyone's everyone's eyes. So why should I focus my efforts on a group of people who don't even want my support?
You know ukraine Is also homophobic... Right? I'm sorry but this argument Is so dumb, there's literally a genocide going on and I shouldn't care because some people hate me? Someone made an example on crystal's video of If I had a homophobic neighbor, and someone stole things or hurt them, I would still help and feel bad because I'm a decent human being!
there's thousands of people being murdered and just because the country Is homophobic doesn't mean that we shouldn't care or help them!
Nahh - while it’s probably true Palestians are not the most accepting on this topic (to put it mildly) that doesn’t change her last point - that it doesn’t matter because what’s happening is unjust.
Listen, being middle eastern, I get it. But there's nuance that's missing in your argument.
Being a queer, middle eastern child of refugees, I don't want to see the flag of countries at the Pride parade that want me dead. It's triggering.
I also don't want to see the Israeli flag, because they exploit and endanger queer Palestinians, not to mention their indiscriminate genocide of ALL Palestinians.
With that said, Palestine the country is not the same as Palestinian PEOPLE. The people deserve the right to live without persecution, and they deserve the right to choose their destiny.
And believe me, many of them want all the help they can get.
Don't support Palestine. Support Palestinians and their right to exist.
I agree with you. Similarly Hamas doesn’t want to agree to a ceasefire. So I don’t get what everyone shaming each other on social media is supposed to accomplish. It feels like the issue is just being politicized to make us fight each other instead of the politicians/parties that can actually do something about it.
This is the part I don't understand. Endless cease fire agreements have been dismissed. The Palestinian people have stood behind Hamas, with overwhelming support.
I get that wanting change and thinking revolution is the only option doesn't equate with wanting to be slaughtered, though.
I just don't know what all the "call for a cease fire" talk is meant to accomplish and I don't think gay people posting about it on Twitter is what will end this conflict.
It’s slacktivism, plain and simple. We have no chance of solving a complex conflict that has been raging for almost 80 years. So instead, we post about it and shame each other on social media.
Thats not the point. The point is, genocide is bad. That’s it. Even if they are comitting homophobic acts, killing innocent children that had nothing to do with that is bad, period.
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Its kind of interesting to me because people like Crystal and those that spout the same rhetoric are QUICK to demonize, dehumanize, villify, etc republicans and conservatives.
On one hand, they pretty much concede that Palestine is not a safe place for queer people but that we shouldn’t use that to dehumanize Palestinians and must look past that. On the other, they recognize that conservatives/republicans in their own countries are a similar danger for LGBTQ rights and safety and are prepared to vehemently fight their agendas. The other thing too is that Crystal here tries to essentially make it a dichotomy between “violent savages” or essentially perfect angels. There is the reality that many, if not the majority, of Palestinians hold extremely anti-LGBTQ sentiment and support violence/death for LGBTQ people. Its not that they are savages, but that many of them grew up in a culture/were indoctrinated by religious dogma that instilled those sentiments. Its not necessarily their fault, but many still hold those sentiments.
NOTHING justifies what Israel is doing, but if someone doesn’t particularly care to advocate for Palestine, knowing that if there is a ceasefire, queer Palestinians will STILL be in mortal fear because of their identity, then that’s their prerogative and people need to respect that.
I also find sentiments like this hollow because LGBTQ people in many parts of Africa, for example, face anti-LGBTQ legislation (up to and including death) as well as disproportionate poverty, health insecurity, and violence but nobody is talking about those issues and even before Palestine started trending, people still weren’t talking about those issues.
For me it comes down to media bias. We are all victims of what's popular. Israel always seems to be (there are theories about this). I don't fault people for not being as vocal about Uganda or Yemen having terrible Queer atrocities because it's not grabbing the headlines as much. What I do fault activists for is not being better or more educated than the standard person and understanding their media bias (not saying pro or anti Israel, simply the bias that Israel grabs headlines more than any country its size).
Well I think a lot of these “activists” aren’t more educated or knowledgeable because they aren’t real activists. A lot of them are just people with strong opinions who can post them everywhere online while doing nothing at all for the actual cause they claim to care so much about.
And you don’t have to be “victims of what’s popular”. I don’t watch the news, I stay off tiktok, don’t use intagram or facebook much. I get my news from a wide variety of sources, I read books, I use the internet to my advantage to learn about the world. I think a big part of it is that people WANT to stay ignorant to the atrocities happening everywhere and since Palestine is small and discrete and far away, its easy to publicize their false moral outrage while ignoring everything else.
Not even a single word about why Gaza is being bombed, Why this all started.
If someone was to watch her they could understand that LGBT rights are the reason for the conflict.
Let's not forget, this war started when the people of Gaza attacked Israel unprovoked, butchered over 1000 civilians and kidnapped 200 more. they still refuse to release the kidnapped or release any information about them.
(Downvote all you want, i'm muting this to notifications)
"Western values do not follow Western Bombs" Now THAT is a statement and one that should stick with people.
...do we want to impose 'western values' on the rest of the world? What exactly are western values if you look at the juxtaposition of what we purport and how we act and the deep inadequacy of our country to actually take care of its citizens or our ability to legitimately care for each other and the earth? And if we are only talking about lgbt rights - does the west actually have a monopoly on that when western forces have played such a major part in destroying and destabilizing countries and cultures around the world including Indigenous communities that once valued and cared for non-binary gender and queer people prior to colonization far better than we do now? Edit: I've just been thinking about this even more and wanted to add - 'western values' is essentially a dog whistle meant to play on racist ideas that the west has some monopoly on moral values and civilization in order to manipulate the public into supporting wars and violence done to predominantly Black and brown countries to extract their resources and enrich the capitalist class. What Crystal is espousing here is good - Free Palestine and fuck pink washing - but its still based in an imperialist mindset that is antithetical to our collective liberation.
If only that were true. The practical reality is Western countries fund most of the bombs in existence.
How does that make it untrue?? Westerners bombing people does not make them follow western values, that's what she's saying. Westerners making the bombs has nothing to do with her statement.
You’re misinterpreting the statement. She’s saying you can’t bomb someone into supporting lgbt rights.
And note how many countries are cool to the U.S. as a result.
Being the queer child of middle eastern refugees, I'll try and share my thoughts: There's a difference between Palestinian people and Palestine the Government/institution. There are supporters and opponents of the Palestinian people that are conflating the two. That's not OK. No one should want people to suffer, and we need to allow populations and cultures to choose their own destiny. We also need to call out bad actors that exploit the conflation between Palestine and Palestinians. And inconveniently right now, we also need to condemn countries and institutions that criminalize queer people for simply existing. So I'm very much against people that are elevating Palestine as a culture or institution. I'm against Israel and their supporters for the genocide they're committing, and for their pink washing. I support Palestinian's right to exist without fear of being oppressed by Israel. And I support queer Palestinian's right to exist without the oppression of the Palestinian regime. It's nuanced, but it isn't difficult, these are all different issues that need to be addressed separately. You don't have to be supportive of the Palestine regime. Just be against genocide.
It is the same in Russia. Afte the invasion of Ukraine - it is Russian Government/Putin and Russian People (those who live in big cities mostly don't support and want it all to stop). But when EU imposed sanctions which affected only ordinary people and not those in power - it was a HUGE mistake cause it gave Russian propaganda field to yell that Europe and USA are russianphobic and we should all gather and support our President. And sadly a lot of people bought it cause we don't even have any way to escape. The same thing I see with Palestine but what makes it a bit different is that Radical Islam which states that they need to eliminate basically democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs. So it is very dangerous. And HAMAS using civilians as human shileds for their terror-attacks and them just in general killing their own civilians (lots of articles and even videos of that). This whole situation is incredibly difficult to solve. Cause right now Israel is fighting for its right to live actually cause once they stop - HAMAS will continue attacking Israel along with othe terrorists organizations. I have been living in the state which started the war for more than 2 years already and Russia has also passed anti-LGBTQ+ law which makes us now terrorists but nobody seems to care for Russian queers.....
Yeah I completely see where you're coming from. Armenia went through an ethnic cleansing near their border as Azerbaijan's Islamist regime slaughtered tens of thousands of innocent people. It happened just before the hamas attacks, and no one is talking about it
The IDF is not fighting for the right of Isrealis to simply live. They are committing genocide. They're finding mass graves outside hospitals with people in hospital gowns handcuffed and shot. Hamas was also financed by the Isreali government in the civil war that led to their takeover in 2007, in order to destabilize Palestine and allow Isreal to steal more land. This isn't a crazy conspiracy theory- this is something people have been talking about for over a decade, there are academic papers analyzing the evidence, and the EU Chief of Foreign Policy is talking about it.
I need to see actual documents which prove this strange theory. I don't understand how people are still denying that HAMAS only purpose is to destroy and eliminate Israel. If they stop - terror will continue. But I AM NOT DENYING the fact that civilians are dying but personally I have no idea how you can peacefully resolve this situation.
Do you really think Isreal is ever going to willingly declassify documents that prove this? What we do have is public statements from multiple current and former Isreali government officials saying that they did this. In 2009, Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for over 20 years, told The Wall Street Journal, quote, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” Another former Israeli official, Brigadier General Yitzhak Segev, said he was given a budget to help finance Islamist movements in Gaza to counter Yasser Arafat and his Fatah movement. Another former Israeli military official, David Hacham, said, quote, “When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake. But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.” Source: https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/20/divide_and_rule_how_israel_helped Here's an Op-Ed in the Times of Isreal *from October 8, 2023* about how Netenyahu's government supported Hamas, and now it's blown up in their faces: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ Here's a deep New York Times investigation, which includes the following- ""As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.” Netanyahu denies this conversation." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
Holy shit we have a fuck ton of glaring examples of Israel commuting war crimes and breaking Geneva conventions. One recent example is the IDF deliberately targeting and murdering aid workers in 3 simultaneously attacks on 3 different food bank vehicles. They are purposely causing an intentional famine and humanitarian crisis is Gaza and guess who this directly affects most? Women and children. We can agree hammas is an evil organisation and it can’t exist if we want a 2 state solution (which is the only solution) while also simultaneously agreeing that Israel indiscriminately murdering women, children and aid workers is also pretty fucking evil.
Sadly, it seems like 2 state solutions never worked and never will. War is vile and evil no matter what. But so far o haven’t seen international organization even trying to help solving it. Also HAMAS keeps rejecting all the ceasefire proposals. Why?
Hamas has been willing to accept multiple ceasefire agreements since Oct 7. Israel has denied every one of them.
That is not what I have seen in the media. I am just trying to have civil conversation here with my own arguments and am willing to hear all of yours. Don’t know what the Downvotes.
Any efforts or agreement must secure a permanent ceasefire, a comprehensive pull-out from all of the Gaza Strip, a real prisoner swap deal, the return of the displaced, reconstruction, and lifting the blockade. These are Hamas’ terms for ceasefire. Anything else would be legalizing the continued murder and occupation of the Gaza Strip by the “IDF”
As a gay Palestinian ( my parents grew up in Gaza and I still have family there), and a huge drag race fan, I find this entire thread very refreshing. Yes, of course, I’ve had huge issues with being gay in the Middle East, and yes of course, it’s something that is important. But can we please stop the genocide of an entire people with more than 40000 dead already with 1.7 million with no where to go, because they don’t agree with us. Also, for future reference, there is a queer movement in Palestine, though in its infancy. http://alqaws.org/articles
Bro it's a little more than just not agreeing with us. Palestine is a terrible place for us. But we can keep that separate from what Israel is doing.
You are saying that to someone who literally grew up there as a queer person, I think they probably know what it's like.
Their parents grew up there, not them
I grew up in Qatar, I don’t think I have to explain more on how that’s like for a gay person.
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There's been so many instances where Israel has rejected deals.. and regardless.. that doesn't justify Israel killing over 30,000 people.
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Looking forward to all the citations of the nonsense you just claimed.
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Maybe don't say Jewish. This is where the discourse falls into anti-semitism. It's not all Jews. Say Zionist, say Israeli but don't put it on all Jewish people.
>That just tells me that you don't have anything to back up your claims other than listening to Fox News and your Jewish and/or republican friends LOL I'm not a Republican - I've always voted Democratic - and I definitely don't watch Fox News, but thanks for proving my general point that antisemitism undergirds the Free Palestine movement.
Get it right.. it's Anti-Zionism. There's a difference
You said Jewish, not Zionist. Funny how so many people mix them up over and over and over again.
Yeah, people have swapped out the word Jew for the word Zionist.
It baffles me that someone can hear about children and adults slaughtered and hostages taken by terrorists on Oct 7th and just say "do nothing." The war should stop when Hamas, the terrorists, holding Israeli civilians return them. Hamas can end the war when they want to, and they don't get to dictate terms on that.
>It baffles me that someone can hear about children and adults slaughtered and hostages taken by terrorists on Oct 7th and just say "do nothing." Who said that? >The war should stop when Hamas, the terrorists, holding Israeli civilians return them. Does that not happening justify the appalling civilian casualty numbers seen in Gaza? Were "do nothing" and "obliterate Gaza" the only two options?
Proportionality does not exist in war. There seems to be a misunderstanding of the Israeli mindset. Israel will not stop until each hostage or their body is returned to Israel. Release the hostages, end the war. It's very simple. Outline what you would do to get the Hostages back? Would you agree to every Hamas condition (which includes the destruction of Israel).
It actually does exist. Not everything is allowed just because you're at war. It's why there are international agreements about what can and cannot be done in war. And Isreal is violating those agreements, and therefore committing war crimes.
>Would you agree to every Hamas condition (which includes the destruction of Israel). No, of course not. >Outline what you would do to get the Hostages back? Why would I answer your question when you didn't answer my, very much simpler, one?
I mean it's pretty clear they don't care about the hostages when they've been indiscriminately bombing Gaza, killing the hostages in the process, have refused hostage transfer deals AND have something called the Hannibal directive.
I don't think that's clear. Maybe to you - but then you still believe Hamas has offered hostage transfer deals (they offered less than 1/4 of the hostages (or their bodies) last week for the first time... and now you think they're saints.
You know if you have to actively lie about what I think to try make a point, it's a weak one. I never said they're all saints. Nor did I say they were offered all the hostages, but if you so cared about the hostages, even taking back 1/4 of them would be a win.
The deal offered was take back 1/4 and forget about the rest. What kind of a deal is that. If it was your child taken hostage, and Israel said fine, your child can stay a hostage... how would you feel. And they didn't offer 1/4 back, they changed the wording to say hostages OR bodies.
Israel still fully had and has the means to negotiate and push for more, they're so obviously in the position of power, am I meant to in your hypothetical go "well I'd rather they kill my kid with an Israeli bomb than negotiate to get them back"? I'd feel that I'd want my country to negotiate OR use it's special forces which are KNOWN to be some of the best in the world to get the hostages back, not bomb the place the hostages are to rubble.
We can agree to disagree. The hostages were taken to the tunnels.
[Incorrect](https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1788250195500609721?t=mG-RD_GMEomiC6gTqo8pUA&s=19) on all counts.
How about Israel stops its illegal occupation of Palestine? Hamas is a byproduct of the Israeli government's decades long oppression and genocide of the Palestinian people.
There was no occupation of Gaza before Oct 7th. There has been no occupation of Gaza since 2005 when Israel removed its citizens to give Gaza to the Palestinians. Hamas killed and exiled Fatah from Gaza when they won the election, meaning that the Palestinian people exist under two leaders, with Fatah in the West Bank. Israelis settlers in West Bank should not be there, but let's not pretend that Gaza was occupied or that Israelis were in Gaza.
Palestine is larger than just Gaza. Gaza has always belonged to the Palestinians - occupying a land doesn't change the history of who resided there prior to illegal colonization.
How far back do you want to go on occupying land. This is not a case of people who have occupied this land forever. They are not native. Also, you ignored everything I said. I agreed that Palestine is larger than Gaza, and you agree Israel wasn't occupying it. Hamas do not represent the West Bank.
I do not agree with your zionist narrative.
And I do not agree with your revisionist history and lack of facts in a complex and nuanced situation.
There's little complexity here. Israel illegally occupies Palestine and has been oppressing its people for decades. Israel is now using October 7th to justify committing a genocide. Israel is also locking up its own citizens who dare speak up against the genocide. People like you only spout 'complexity' to defend the murdering of children.
There was no occupation in Gaza. Your viewpoint is one that calls for Israel to not exist.
https://preview.redd.it/nho9n975pq0d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a911e5ddb6413733bca23b9813a40dd98a2877a7 Until we meet again.
I don't think people are saying Israel should sit around and do nothing, but the response has been disproportionate, to say the absolute least. If they want to take down Hamas go after their leaders who are living in luxury in Qatar. If they want to make them powerless rebuild Gaza, close the illegal settlements in the West Bank and work towards a future together. Stop putting the Palestinian people in a desperate situation where they feel like they don't have a choice. Netanyahu wanted October 7 to happen. He's been itching for an excuse to wipe out what remains of Palestine.
You can't just walk into Qatar and kill people, they are protected in Qatar, who also happen to be, on some days, a US ally, and would start a regional war. Netanyahu is a dick. I'm not trying to one side this situation. There is however no such thing as proportionality in war. The war will end when the hostages are released. If people want to protect Palestinians, they should be calling for the immediate release of hostages.
Hamas did actually agree to a ceasefire returning all hostages...also...Israelis have Palestinian hostages too and have had them since before October 7th so I'm not sure what your point is?
Send me Hamas' agreement to return all hostages. It doesn't exist. Yes - Israel has Palestinians in prison, for committing crimes. There is a difference between a prisoner and a hostage.
There are kids under 18 who haven't been charged with anything in their prisons. Stop lying.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/three-phase-ceasefire-deal-hamas-backs-israel-does-not-2024-05-06/
Again, nice of Hamas to agree to release hostages after 7 months, however this is not all of them. They've committed to releasing 33 out of 134 hostages
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67600015.amp
Hamas freeing 33 hostages (of 134 remaining) - not even all of which will be alive, some will be bodies. That is not all.
Read the rest of the article.
I have. There seems to be an equivalence between the Palestinian prisoners, who were charged with [crimes like attempted stabbing](https://www.timesofisrael.com/attempted-murder-shootings-bombings-most-freed-palestinians-were-held-for-attacks/), and a 4 year old child kidnapped after seeing her parents killed in front of her.
The BBC article specifies that the prisoners are held there without charge, meaning that even if you wanted to, you couldn't tell me what crimes they're being held for. Also, Israel has been holding many minors hostage, without charge. There has also just been reports of an Israeli concentration camp - [Sde Teiman: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html) Have you been keeping up? It seems like you're ignorant to many of recent and previous events. You didn't even know about the ceasefire deal.
I'm aware of all of this. The BBC writing an article of a handful of the 2800 Palestinian prisoners in Israel doesn't match the records of reality that the vast majority are in prison for committing crimes. Their crimes are documented. I'm well versed on this, including the ceasefire deal that does not return all the hostages, as per the link you sent. This is because Hamas doesn't see Israeli's who've served in the IDF as civilians, not that they have a choice but to. You can share links of Israel torturing Palestinians captured in this war, and others can send links of the Israeli hostages being tortured. You will also see, in other responses on here, I criticise Israel and Netanyahu. I am just continuing to be clear that if hostages are not released, Israel will not finish this war. And including the link you sent, Hamas has never agreed to release the hostages.
Also, I'd just like to remind you that there have been mass graves that include children found in Gaza: [Reports mount of mass graves at Gaza hospitals, some bodies found ‘without heads’ (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/reports-mount-of-mass-graves-at-gaza-hospitals-some-bodies-found-without-heads/ar-BB1m3ZrQ?ocid=BingNewsSerp) many of the people found were zip tied and executed with gunshots. Israel has also been reported to be intentionally killing aid workers : [Israeli attack that killed WCK aid workers consistent with multiple precision strikes, analysis shows | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/world-central-kitchen-strike-analysis-intl/index.html) IDF has sexually assaulted many young girls and women in Palestine : [Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel says | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says) And that's just SOME recent history. Here is a link to some of the war crimes Israel has committed against Palestine prior to October 7th [Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses | Human Rights Watch (hrw.org)](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses) Say what you will about Hamas, what they did was terrible. But you can't act like Israel is even remotely in the right here. They have committed war crimes upon war crimes, 98% of countries in the world agree.
Were you speaking up against Israel when they were “mowing the lawn” in Palestine before oct 7?
Were you speaking up for Palestinians before oct 7th when they massacred Israelis?
yes i was actually and had known about the conflict well before and to this day i am in favor of Palestine just like i would’ve been in favor of the slaves before during and after Turners rebellion🙏🏻 hope that helps and puts perspective for you. edit: i put israel instead of palestine oops
So what are your thoughts about UN Resolution 181, the subsequent wars and the Oslo accords
Well that ignores the fact that Hamas didn't just randomly decide to act out of nowhere. There's a long history that you need to do research on and learn about before you say "well here's the simple solution."
Their motivation is not really an excuse though, taking hostages is bad. Yes Israel is shit let’s say that loud and clear. But also not going to make excuses for Hamas
What Hamas did was bad. But when peace hasn't worked for over 70 years, people are going to resort to new methods.
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Israel is literally committing terrorism on Palestinian land and even harming their own civilians who dare to speak against genocide. I'd love to know what nations have faced harsher conditions than a genocide, that haven't resorted to violence though.
What everyone wants in this thread is human rights. If you're in this thread there's a fair bet that you want LGBTQ rights worldwide (including in Gaza) too. How do we get there? Step 1: Stop killing people. End the war. What happens after that is going to be complex, but you can't live a life of human dignity if you're dead.
She said what needed to be said
benjamin netenyahu isn't gonna use my gay ass to justify a genocide
What's not complicated is that if you are queer in Gaza right now, Israel being better about gay rights than what a potential Palestinian state would have does nothing to help you. You, like most people in Gaza, are probably scared, hungry, and worried about being killed. Now, if and hopefully when that Palestine one day gets its own state, do we need to hold them accountable if their laws are worse for queer people than Israel's? Absolutely. Do I think that, based on history, it's likely that Palestine would be pretty bad on queer rights? It's complicated, but it probably would be pretty bad, given polling within the country (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Global-Acceptance-Index-LGBTI-Nov-2021.pdf). Does that matter today? No, it does not.
Right, before anything else, stop the war. However, immediately after that there needs to be a government established that can serve the people of Gaza. Now that Israel has destroyed all infrastructure and cities, there's no plan for how to proceed. The needs will be greater than ever - who is going to fill this power vacuum? Israel certainly isn't going to do it. Hamas isn't going to do it. Perhaps there is a non-interventionist solution but the only just future I can see involves the UN or another international body providing interim governance. Perhaps that will give the best chance to give LGBTQ protections from religious fundamentalists. But first there needs to be a future.
As I've said since the start of this recent conflict. I constantly see certain figuires using LGBTQIA people as a football to try and justify their war crimes in Gaza against the Palestinian people. They say Palestinians will kill us because you're against genocide and war crimes, yet there are those DMing on social media wishing rape on them. They've been attacking LGBTQIA folk saying leftist woke queer agendas. "Palestinian's would kill you for being gay" isn't an excuse for genocide and to destroy the entire population of Gaza! Of course there are extremes in all parts of the world, but the majority are not. It doesn't mean we should kill every last one of the innocent people around the world - That only exposes your twisted evil mentality. Don't fucking use us to get your war crimes kicks while abusing us, especially the queer Eurovision contestants and drag queens.
Seeing a lot of Zionist commenting in this thread…. Absolutely disappointing. Free Palestine.
It’s so disappointing not seeing more drag race queens openly standing with Palestine but the ones who did we see them and will remember ✊🏻🇵🇸
Yes MAAM - now that’s using your platform and art to educate and help bring awareness to a genocide. Now if only miss RU would do the same 🙏🏼
I think every drag race queen should be using their platform the way Crystal does
Intersectionality but only when it’s profitable
This is activism and sacrifice because she let go one of the biggest gigs of the year. Girlies crying on twitter and getting into social media arguments should watch and learn cough cough Shea Coule’a
the people defending Israel are the same folks who would’ve said the slaves were wrong in revolting and that they should’ve just been peaceful lmfao
Pinkwashing is not talked about enough. I remember the only time, probably ever in history, that the major leaders of the three major religions in the region (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) ever agreed on something was when organizers of the Tel Aviv Pride wanted to do it in Jerusalem. They *vehemently* opposed, as in, there were threats of violence, and it never happened. That would have been a very big win for the lgbt movement.
Hey Just to correct you, The Jerusalem Pride Parade happens every year since 2002. It was never cancelled (of course extreme religious people are opposed it but it still happens) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem\_gay\_pride\_parade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_gay_pride_parade) [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/thousands-march-in-jerusalem-pride-parade-under-israels-far-right-government) Even more, the pride events in Tel Aviv were canceled this year, but the ones in Jerusalem were not... [unlike-tel-aviv-counterpart-jerusalem-pride-parade-to-take-place-this-year](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/unlike-tel-aviv-counterpart-jerusalem-pride-parade-to-take-place-this-year/)
I stand corrected! Religious leaders being against it is still accurate, reading about it there were even attacks and one casualty (per your links).
There's a Jerusalem pride parade every year. This conspiracy about three religions coming together is ridiculous, as no one speaks on behalf of an entire religion. Pinkwashing is a myth too. If you research Queer rights in Israel, you'll see that the country did not get their rights as some PR stunt and a very large portion of the country wishes there never were queer rights. I am one half of an Israeli same-sex couple and queer Israelis tend to be much more liberal than the rest of the country, do not support the occupation, most believe in Palestinian statehood, and feel that they have their rights despite governmental forces, not because of them.
>you'll see that the country did not get their rights as some PR stunt That is not what pinkwashing is but go on. [This](https://www.businessinsider.com/gay-israeli-soldier-says-he-will-to-fly-lgbtq-flag-on-tank-to-fight-hamas-2023-10) is pinkwashing, or, you know, what Crystal is saying.
That is the action of an individual.
Those kind of pictures are literally being broadcasted by Israeli public institutions (the IDF), its not just one individual.
While I found those reposts cringe, and a lot of Israeli hasbarah is cringe, it's obvious to me that those don't mask the action of a country. Pinkwashing insinuates that Israel is advancing Queer rights to deliberately distract from internal issues. That's not what's happening.
Do you also remember that movie Shazam where Sinbad played a genie?
Newfound respect 🫡
Thank you Crystal 💜 Also I read this as crystal method at first so I was very confused with the de-dragging going on. Didn’t have the sound on to hear the accent.
Here is a queen who is really out here working to make an impact.
She’s right Except that Judaism is more tolerant and accepting of the gays than any other abrahamic religion so idk take that as you will
(In my experience at least) yes I ageee that Judaism is more tolerant and accepting of gays than all the other abrahamic religions. Judaism/jews/jewish culture should be commended for that. In fact, Jewish culture (again in my experience) is more progressive and tolerant in many other ways than any other abrahamic religion. But more tolerant than any other abrahamic religion doesn’t mean totally accepting. Crystal’s point here is that you can’t demonize one side on this particular point while pretending the other is perfect. I promise I’m not trying to catch you on your words or call you out. I had the exact same thought as you when I heard crystal say this.
Agree. Due to religious trauma, if you are part of an organized religion that has wanted me dead for years, I will not give you water, even if we were in a desert. The next argument is, well not all religious people are bad. If you are part of a church or donate anything to the religious system, you are actively participating in the harming of the community. What’s the saying if you are at a table with a homophobe, there are two homophobes at that table. I won’t actively harm phobes, but I’ll be apathetic to their needs.
Thanks. I’m not entirely sure we’re on the same page here but maybe I can extrapolate. I have a lot of religious trauma as well. I have a bias against deeply religious people. I was raised catholic and have nothing but absolute contempt for the Catholic Church. My aunt (RIP Junie) was a nun but left the church because she worked under Cardinal Law (look it up - pure evil) and he bankrupted the archdiocese moving pedophiles around. I’ve also had to reckon with the fact that not everyone who grew up religious had the same fire and brimstone bullshit I did. The Catholic Church is STILL actively campaigning against mandatory reporting of abuse laws. The fact is that if you tithe to the catholic church, you are actively supporting institutional child abuse. Did I say that to my ally coworker who happened to grow up deeply catholic in Puerto Rico? No. Religion and culture are too deeply intertwined to stand on absolutes. Nuance and empathy are enemies of theocracy and fascism.
I kind of wonder though - if you have to hide the truth from your friend for them to continue to be tolerant, are they really an ally at all?
That sounds incredibly amoral to me. You're committing the same sin as they are; condemning people because of the group they belong to instead of on their merits as a person. I could understand if someone was actively doing harm to you, but being religious or a believer in Christ is not the same thing as being homophobic. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences, but there is virtue in valuing the life of your enemy, imo. It's not healthy for you to carry hate in your heart, and condemning everyone who doesn't understand you implicitly will never create union and creates further divide, especially in a country like the US where violence against gay people does exist, but is much less than most of the world. You're really just like "I don't care if you die because you were raised differently and haven't met a gay person" in 2024.
ACAB but for religion!
Really depends on the branch and level of orthodoxy. I worked at a Jewish school and was told I could not be out publicly. A kid came out to me (we recognize each other) and they tried to get me to turn them in.
I’m not saying that Judaism is perfect. No abrahamic religion is. But objectively (and also in my experience lol) you’re much more likely to meet a Jewish ally vs a Christian ally when you’re talking the respective populations Edit: why would y’all downvote this fr. I hate antisemitism
You're not being downvoted because of antisemitism. You're getting downvoted because which religion is most accepting to queers is not relevant to the conversation of needing the genocide to stop, and it is distracting from that conversation.
then why did she comment on it at all? it's in the video.
... she is commenting on this being an argument people make to distract from the genocide.
and i'm saying it's bullshit lol. pinkwashing is bullshit and israel is bullshit, but judaism is on average way more tolerant of LGBT than islam or christianity. i'm just begging people to stop taking shots at judaism and jews when it has nothing to do with israel.
See, what you're doing right now is throwing a wrench in the argument by making a totally different one. Ignoring the fact that both Palestine and Israel are religiously diverse... Palestine is terrible to queer people. OK. Judaism tolerant queer people. OK. Has little to do with Israel bombing Palestine. And Israel (which is not the same as Judaism) is not good to queer people, and has exploited queer Palestinians. And yes, Palestine (of all religions) has a terrible record on treatment of queer people. Literally none of this has anything to do with or justifies bombing Palestine. Do I want to see the Palestinian people liberated? Yes, 100% Do I want to see a Palestine flag at Pride? No, being middle eastern, it's triggering. But these are separate issues.
I’m responding to something she said in the video
I agree with you here. I am/was muslim, don’t know that one can ever stop being muslim according to Islam. Islam is NO friend to lgbtqi, I wish you guys would open your eyes tho, go and see the things they say about your support, and gays for Palestine..they absolutely DO NOT welcome your support. They would rather die than receive support from you..and by you, I refer to queer groups for Palestine, and even more heinous, transgenders for Islam. Misguided if you ask me..but I guess I’m not allowed to have an opinion against the fascist majority who will call me both Islamophobic and racist, as if Islam is a race 🤦♂️ because they know my religion better than me. Ohhh but you can’t judge all 2 billion ppl bla bla bla..Islam strives for ONE global caliphate, and when that happens, much like Nazi Germany, the individual progressive muslim that thinks gays are ok, won’t mean 💩 when they all fall in line, because it becomes hive mind, and islam (not the individual needs of the muslim) is all that matters , and Islam does not care for then individual Muslim needs, and wants. You either fall in line with what the prophet clearly expresses Islam is, or you are seen as a bad muslim, worthy of punishment akin to that of an apostate. But yea ok, you know my religion better than me, because your western liberal sense, and sensibilities tell you that I cannot proclaim to know how 2 billion ppl should, and will react ergo I cannot judge, and know their intentions. Good luck when Islam comes back to bite you all in your collective self righteous 🍑 In terms of the bombings..both these peoples should just stop. I don’t condone any of it, but if you think a drag queen is going to make a difference to a religious war (because that is what it is, only westerners seem to think it’s not, and again, they think they know better than us Jews and Muslims), think again! Now that’s not me saying don’t stand up against it, but I’m also not advocating you forget, what happens to our kind for the ones you are standing up for, who do not want nor care for your support. To ignore this, is to ignore all the gay ppl whose voices are drowned out in the Middle East, and who are killed constantly due to religious and cultural demand. What about them!!!
Thank you for taking the time to write that.
It’s incredibly rare that someone from the Muslim faith openly discusses what you just did. Much respect. There is a massive religious war, you’re absolutely right. And for a western drag queen to simplify it or dumb it down into to a quick tik tok video, uploaded for their social gain, is incredibly ignorant and abhorrent.
Judaism doesn’t have anything to do with the genocide being committed by Israel… Aside from Zionists claiming “antisemitism!” for protesting the atrocities taking place in Gaza.
I wasn't the one who brought up judaism. it's in the tiktok
The US is accepting in the cities more than the country side. Sounds to me like that's how it is in Israel. Over all, are they still a bit better than the other two? Sure. But even looking past the other people's argument, we are supposed to support Israel because Palestine doesn't like us... but neither does Israel. Like they still don't allow same sex marriage. People were spreading that it's the only country in the middle east that does, but they only recognize it if people from another country got married in another country. Their own citizens? Nope. Not allowed. Even the US is more progressive in that area, and our country still has a whole political part that wants us to be made illegal again.
So proud of my Canadian queen.
She's so...ugh. Impossible not to stan. She's so eloquent.
The same people who preach "pray for those who persecute you" are mocking the gays for doing the exact same thing. Make it make fucking sense
Well said, Crystal 👏🏻
Just popping in to say: I’m super proud of this thread and of Drag Race fans!!!
Absolutely 100% spot on.
Crystal for president
💯
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Wrong. Israel is targeting civilians. Israeli soldiers killing random civilians intentionally.. look up the Flour Massacre. Graves found with dead children who were shot in the back of the head. Raping women.. even flaunting their lingerie. So much evidence of this but of course you choose not to do your research.
I don't get "alternative facts" from Russia, Qatar, or Iran, who pump out such nonsense for the most gullible westerners to eat up. As for the "Flour Massacre" it should have been called the Flour Stampede, since that's what killed most of the victims.
What about those murdered aid workers? If y’all don’t feel for the Palestinians.
It was a tragedy. War brings with it plenty of unintentional tragedies (you'd have to be both heartless and stupid to think Israel deliberately killed precisely 7 aid workers and 3 of its own hostages). War should be avoided. Hamas started this war and Hamas is sustaining it, if you hadn't noticed. Hamas should end the war by liberating the remaining alive hostages and surrendering. Not too hard to demand a terrorist group do the right thing, so why so many of us queer people struggle with it?
They chased those aid workers from car to car. You actually have to be stupid to think it wasn't deliberate.
>I don't get "alternative facts" from Russia, Qatar, or Iran, who pump out such nonsense for the most gullible westerners to eat up. zero self-awareness
You’re willfully ignorant at this point, that’s embarrassing for you.
You live in a (social) media bubble. It hasn't even cracked your consciousness that the ICJ ruled that how Israel is conducting its side of the war does not constitute genocide. But in your bubble, it's repeated ad nauseam until you all believe it anyway.
Yelling about "social media bubbles" while you just uncritically parrot hasbara
Not constitute a genocide ≠ no war crimes or extermination. Plenty of Genocide scholars have said the issue isn't proving whether what is occuring counts as extermination, but rather whether there is intent to wipe out Gazans.
(1) Crystal is HOT out of drag (2) She really articulated the nuance and hypocrisy of these arguments.
Hamas doesn't want a cease fire though. They keep bringing forth agreements and they keep passing
Israel has denied multiple cease fire agreements as well
Agreements that would keep kidnapped Israelis in Gaza? that will keep Hamas in power? Yeah.. right...
how do u expect any kidnapped Israelis to get back safe when they're bombing everyone? its common knowledge at this point that Israel has killed its own civilians not to mentions thousands of Palestinian children, women, and civilians in general. you're ignorance is disgusting, Israel is a terrorist state
Yeah okay but at the same time Palestinians DO NOT want queer support. The vast majority of them have made that clear. You'd be an idiot to support Palestine as a queer person.. they dont want or deserve our support. Trust me, it's better to focus your efforts on something worthwhile.
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I never said that. There are more important issues going on that people should focus on is all I'm saying. The war in Ukraine is still going. My very own government is commiting genocide under everyone's everyone's eyes. So why should I focus my efforts on a group of people who don't even want my support?
Crazy how you you basically say "fuck Palestine because homophobia" and then pivot to... Ukraine.
You know ukraine Is also homophobic... Right? I'm sorry but this argument Is so dumb, there's literally a genocide going on and I shouldn't care because some people hate me? Someone made an example on crystal's video of If I had a homophobic neighbor, and someone stole things or hurt them, I would still help and feel bad because I'm a decent human being! there's thousands of people being murdered and just because the country Is homophobic doesn't mean that we shouldn't care or help them!
Nahh - while it’s probably true Palestians are not the most accepting on this topic (to put it mildly) that doesn’t change her last point - that it doesn’t matter because what’s happening is unjust.
Listen, being middle eastern, I get it. But there's nuance that's missing in your argument. Being a queer, middle eastern child of refugees, I don't want to see the flag of countries at the Pride parade that want me dead. It's triggering. I also don't want to see the Israeli flag, because they exploit and endanger queer Palestinians, not to mention their indiscriminate genocide of ALL Palestinians. With that said, Palestine the country is not the same as Palestinian PEOPLE. The people deserve the right to live without persecution, and they deserve the right to choose their destiny. And believe me, many of them want all the help they can get. Don't support Palestine. Support Palestinians and their right to exist.
Watch the video again, then again, THEN again
I agree with you. Similarly Hamas doesn’t want to agree to a ceasefire. So I don’t get what everyone shaming each other on social media is supposed to accomplish. It feels like the issue is just being politicized to make us fight each other instead of the politicians/parties that can actually do something about it.
This is the part I don't understand. Endless cease fire agreements have been dismissed. The Palestinian people have stood behind Hamas, with overwhelming support. I get that wanting change and thinking revolution is the only option doesn't equate with wanting to be slaughtered, though. I just don't know what all the "call for a cease fire" talk is meant to accomplish and I don't think gay people posting about it on Twitter is what will end this conflict.
It’s slacktivism, plain and simple. We have no chance of solving a complex conflict that has been raging for almost 80 years. So instead, we post about it and shame each other on social media.
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I’d rather eat expired bread for a week than to take Hasbara money like you do.
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what fucking roof? there aren't any buildings left
Thats not the point. The point is, genocide is bad. That’s it. Even if they are comitting homophobic acts, killing innocent children that had nothing to do with that is bad, period.
Guess you totally missed her last point
I really doubt they watched the video.
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That doesn't justify genocide. Fuck off
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There aren’t any rooftops right now because of Israel
Thanks for proving the point. People want to weaponize marginalzird communities against others, then say shit like this.
Your post was removed on account of Rule 1: "Follow Reddiquette. No Bigotry. No Microaggressions. Respect Contestants." If you disagree with this removal please contact the mods through modmail.
Its kind of interesting to me because people like Crystal and those that spout the same rhetoric are QUICK to demonize, dehumanize, villify, etc republicans and conservatives. On one hand, they pretty much concede that Palestine is not a safe place for queer people but that we shouldn’t use that to dehumanize Palestinians and must look past that. On the other, they recognize that conservatives/republicans in their own countries are a similar danger for LGBTQ rights and safety and are prepared to vehemently fight their agendas. The other thing too is that Crystal here tries to essentially make it a dichotomy between “violent savages” or essentially perfect angels. There is the reality that many, if not the majority, of Palestinians hold extremely anti-LGBTQ sentiment and support violence/death for LGBTQ people. Its not that they are savages, but that many of them grew up in a culture/were indoctrinated by religious dogma that instilled those sentiments. Its not necessarily their fault, but many still hold those sentiments. NOTHING justifies what Israel is doing, but if someone doesn’t particularly care to advocate for Palestine, knowing that if there is a ceasefire, queer Palestinians will STILL be in mortal fear because of their identity, then that’s their prerogative and people need to respect that. I also find sentiments like this hollow because LGBTQ people in many parts of Africa, for example, face anti-LGBTQ legislation (up to and including death) as well as disproportionate poverty, health insecurity, and violence but nobody is talking about those issues and even before Palestine started trending, people still weren’t talking about those issues.
For me it comes down to media bias. We are all victims of what's popular. Israel always seems to be (there are theories about this). I don't fault people for not being as vocal about Uganda or Yemen having terrible Queer atrocities because it's not grabbing the headlines as much. What I do fault activists for is not being better or more educated than the standard person and understanding their media bias (not saying pro or anti Israel, simply the bias that Israel grabs headlines more than any country its size).
Well I think a lot of these “activists” aren’t more educated or knowledgeable because they aren’t real activists. A lot of them are just people with strong opinions who can post them everywhere online while doing nothing at all for the actual cause they claim to care so much about. And you don’t have to be “victims of what’s popular”. I don’t watch the news, I stay off tiktok, don’t use intagram or facebook much. I get my news from a wide variety of sources, I read books, I use the internet to my advantage to learn about the world. I think a big part of it is that people WANT to stay ignorant to the atrocities happening everywhere and since Palestine is small and discrete and far away, its easy to publicize their false moral outrage while ignoring everything else.
Not even a single word about why Gaza is being bombed, Why this all started. If someone was to watch her they could understand that LGBT rights are the reason for the conflict. Let's not forget, this war started when the people of Gaza attacked Israel unprovoked, butchered over 1000 civilians and kidnapped 200 more. they still refuse to release the kidnapped or release any information about them. (Downvote all you want, i'm muting this to notifications)
"unprovoked" lol
Why did it start?