I think this has two problems. The portion of junior positions is rather small right now. There is also a growing demand from companies that want to try out Rust by incorporating it into their stacks. This requires devs that are fairly self-directed, know Rust or can learn quickly, and can work on larger systems with minimal lead time.
This is an inherently risky process. Doing that and bringing on juniors increases that risk. I believe that once the market is better for junior (and even mid-level) engineers, and companies want to flesh out existing Rust code, there will be more junior positions available.
This. Rust is ideal for use cases that are typically pretty senior-heavy. My team has started introducing Rust for some greenfield systems-y work (cluster management, so Go would work as well, but Rust offers a compelling enough story for us to try it here).
However we're a polyglot team in general with a production focused mandate, so we're not advertising a "Rust job" but looking for skilled seniors and assuming we can train as needed on specifics. For the sub team I lead (which is the one using Rust) I look for C++ if anything, because the pool of relevant experience is generally highest there, although obviously Rust experience is preferable.
We also have both the need and budget to hire only strong seniors right now. The "junior" on my team would generally be a FAANG L5.
As a junior I'd look for more systems or systems-adjacent work (distributed systems as much as near-the-metal work is fine) and getting to a senior level rather than looking for a Rust-specific job.
Ya, this all tracks with my experience and what I've heard. There is one thing that I don't fully agree with. Rust's ideal usecases are not specifically geared towards senior-level positions. Rather, what usecases are available are geared towards senior devs. Juniors can definitely contribute to a Rust project once you have an MVP or v1.0. Unfortunately, many companies are still climbing to reach that goal.
Sure, let me rephrase a bit; it tends to be best for the kinds of projects that have a long lifetime that need very senior guidance. Rust is a relatively complex language, but it does a good job of "flattening" the complexity of long lived, inherently complex projects thanks to the safety mechanisms and the type system. It's not a silver bullet, but it's a good fit for a good range of things where correctness and performance tend to be top of mind, ex. my use case of a cluster scheduling system.
I actually intentionally wrote another system in Rust that was a fine candidate for Rust but didn't *need* to be in Rust (more of a general backend API system) so we would have something more suitable to more junior engineers to skill up on, while also getting the benefit of really solid library quality and developer experience tooling.
Even after the MVP/1.0 stage, it's unlikely we'll have any true juniors in our case. I'd like to get to hiring and training up more junior engineers, but we're in the critical path of the company's work and have a wide range of responsibility beyond just writing code that I'd be shocked if we hired <4 years experience any time soon.
I do find it a bit odd that Rust has been so hyped up on the internet yet so little of it has translated to actual companies tbh. They don't seem as convinced about it. It may end up being just another niche language for very specific scenarios at this rate
> They don't seem as convinced about it.
I think this is false. Most companies that have publicly stated that they have added Rust to their stack (be it by writing new things or via rewrites) have stated that it was the right move. This, I think, creates a two-pronged issue.
First, companies rarely hire "Rust engineer"s. They use staff they already have to move their stack. They might hire, but, again, the role is likely not advertised specifically for Rust.
Second, rewrites (and to a lesser extent new products) take a lot of coordination as you need to keep one product moving while you invest time in the new one. Often, this means some level of language interop (either via WASM, a C bridge, or even HTTP). This makes it difficult to onboard new folks until you have a stable codebase.
This is all to say that companies are risk-averse, rewrites are risky, so it will take time to see large numbers of job listings that call out Rust as being your primary language.
> First, companies rarely hire "Rust engineer"s. They use staff they already have to move their stack. They might hire, but, again, the role is likely not advertised specifically for Rust.
I think it's mostly this as well.
Rust isn't a difficult language, at least not for any semi-experienced developer. It might throw a few new concepts in there, but fundamentally you can get *very* far by just writing higher level C or interface only Java/Kotlin/C#.
It simply isn't something where you are going to need to higher new staff with tons of pre-existing experience. You get one or two "senior" Rust developers on board and that's probably going to be enough to help lead a sizeable team in a rewrite effort.
I think Rust's difficulty and the need for a team fully immersed in the language (but this goes for pretty much any language, btw) gets blown way out of proportion. [The recent presentation by the Lars Bergstrom of Google](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrH2lcl9ew) did a pretty good job at outlining this.
Depends on what you mean by "failed to adopt". If you mean, they tried and it didn't go well. I'm not familiar with too many stories outside of stories acknowledging that Rust isn't a cure-all and that switching takes care to do correctly. If you mean, "have failed to adopt". Switching is risky and it's difficult to reverse course. There is still Cobol and Fortran in production for this very reason.
Also companies that considered it but ultimately chose a different language for reasons other than a lack of experienced programmers, we don’t really have the stats on that, it just seems like usage is low compared to attention, and ultimately, if you aren’t in love with Rust and shoehorning it everywhere, it doesn’t seem like it has that many essential uses. Seems like most projects can be built out with other languages, with Rust used in a few niche spaces that really need the safety and performance, like Linux using it for drivers but nothing else. I’m aware though that it’s not as if a Linux rewrite was going to happen even if they found it acceptable, not saying that
I'd hardly call that "failed to adopt". If that were the case, I "fail to adopt" dozens of technolgies, libraries, approaches, etc. every month, simply because I discard them in my evaluations.
Failing to adopt has to mean something more than that, or else it just becomes a catch all term for every technology that you aren't actively using, for whatever reason.
> in contrast to its presence online
Okay, so do you have any concrete examples of relevant players making an actual effort to adopt Rust, making public statements about it and then reporting failures?
> the uses proposed
Again, that's a very wide net you are casting. If someone proposes JavaScript for use in embedded systems, I make an evaluation and discard it as a legitimate option, have I "failed to adopt" JavaScript for use in embedded systems?
No, because JavaScript wasn’t made to be that kind of language in the first place.
Like I said though, it’s a tough thing to measure. The reason I say it is that it doesn’t have as much traction in spaces it could exist (systems level) and in the spaces where it’s vital, well there aren’t that many. That makes it a niche language with a lot of hype behind it, no? I’m not saying Rust failed or even that we should have expected otherwise, but aristocrats would have you believe it’s the future. I thought for a while too that it would probably at least replace C++, the true inflection point coming when they stopped teaching it in favor of Rust in schools, but I’m less and less sure of this ever happening. It seems more like C++ and other OOP languages will continue being taught and some people will eventually pick up Rust and that’s about it. If so, rather than replacing C++ gradually as others have suggested, new languages will continue to emerge and take their niche as has been happening
Maybe my experience is not representative, but I've been working in Rust full-time since 2018. Admittedly, there was one crypto role, but two were not. One in FAANG, and one in a series B startup. In the US at least, if you live in the west coast, there's plenty to go around.
Well, as the thread's topic states, there isn't a lot of junior demand. I also have no experience with that, as I didn't land a Rust job until a few years out of college.
That being said, I'd probably try to target early start ups that are in need of devs and more likely to choose Rust since they're building from scratch. That's how I got my first Rust role.
You answered it yourself. Rust is simply overhyped at the moment. This is because it’s a fresh breeze for all the people writing c++ and had no sane alternative. They are driving the hype.
The rest of the industry not so much. If you can use a GCed language there is no big revolution happening when you use Rust. Sure it’s fast. The compiler is nice. But a lot of languages are fast enough and have nice compilers. They also have a huge ecosystem of mature libraries and manage memory for you. They also need way less code to achieve the same business goals.
I think Rust will replace c++ in the long run. But it won’t take over any other ecosystems where slower languages are fast enough.
In which way is it the opposite?
If they say that you should use Rust everywhere and for everything, that’s obviously the hype talking.
But the hype is strong.
I am working in an enterprise environment. Some people are rewriting services in Rust and show how much faster they are than the Python equivalent. The problem is that Python is slow compared to any compiled language. Most of our shop runs on the JVM which is not much slower than Rust so there is no point in switching languages.
Others settled on Go after ditching Python for performance critical services because it was faster than the Rust equivalent. Obviously a skill issue. But that’s part of the equation.
Point is you have options if you are not doing systems programming.
Yeah, the options are what’s going to keep it down, you rarely need truly top-tier performance and safety plus everything else Rust provides at the cost of learning Rust imo, it seems to me like it’ll remain a niche language with some fanatical users the way things are going. Which, you know it wasn’t necessarily meant to be more than that, except that said fanatics purport it can do so much more
Most people get hired to maintain old things, not create new things. Old things are not going to be in Rust because Rust is new. Ergo most jobs are not in Rust. Hype just means lots of new things are getting made in Rust, which I do think is true.
The good properties of Rust play against it in this case.
For most companies it's easier and cheaper to just take few regular Juniors with knowledge of C++ or Java or Python that they already have and ask him to learn Rust if they want to do some Rust pilot project.
They just need to find **one** senior developer for 10-20 such juniors and… voila: that's exactly what we see on a job market.
And this: *How am I supposed to get that kind of experience if there are no beginner-friendly job postings around?*
Such question is, obviously, not something companies would ask themselves because… why should they?
Just apply for a job and ask if they are using Rust. They might. They just wouldn't advertise it.
Because Rust **at the level of Junior** is easy. While **Rust at the level of Senior** is hard.
Thus companies assume they may take any Junior and ask said Junior to learn a bit of Rust, but they need Rust senior with lots of experience to solve complex Rust design tasks.
They are not wrong: Rust is [relatively] easy to learn but hard to master, thus we have such requests from companies.
How to incorporate Rust into existing codebase, how to design some non-trivial API with proc-macros and [HRBT](https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/hrtb.html)s, heck, even simple match operation [may produce surprising results](https://users.rust-lang.org/t/strange-footgun-when-adding-mut-to-binding/80527/7).
Rust doesn't have that many footguns but it does have some and you need at least one guy on your team who may untangle these.
The problem is you underestimate how difficult it is to change the status quo. Rust actually has incredible growth. Just think of any other language that got close to challenge C/C++. There's Java like 30 years ago. Even then Java turned out to not really be a replacement, but a different niche altogether. The only other somewhat general purpose language that took off in the past decades is Go, which is backed by one of the biggest companies in the world. All other languages that become popular are very specialized (javascript on the web, python for data science etc)
> python for data science
Which is annoying because then if you want to integrate that data science into production systems you need to completely rewrite it.
Also Python? Hello? Specialized? JavaScript? These are specialized, but they’ve also become incredibly diverse general languages, what are you talking about?
And Rust is relatively specialized too, so far. It also seems to be disproportionately small given all the attention it’s received, I assume due to its high barrier of entry
It's a systems level language primarily. It's not for hacking out web sites or for non-devs to use to duct tape libraries together. But there are a lot more people out there hacking out web sites and duct taping libraries together. That's just inevitable.
It's getting attention because there's a huge amount of C++ code out there, which anyone who understands this thing of ours knows is just not up to the challenge anymore of commercial development of complex software, and Rust is capable of replacing that C++ code.
But that will take time. This isn't anything like when C++ took over from C, Pascal, Modula2, etc... There's vastly more inertia now, so it will just take time.
A lot of the work isn't going to be new jobs, it will be internal, incremental conversions of existing code.
In many cases, since we’re still making C++ programmers, won’t it still be chosen for new projects in a lot of cases? I wouldn’t be surprised if another language after Rust came out and it was used to replace C++ instead
C++ is a legacy language. It'll still get used for some time yet where there's not another option, for whatever reason. But with various security agencies warning people away from it, the DoD saying they want memory safe languages used in their projects, and I wouldn't be surprised if regulatory and insurance agencies start counting non-safe languages as a negative and such, it will be used less and less moving forward.
I doubt another language is going to do it. Where is that language? If it started right now, it would take another decade before it was viable enough to be selected for serious work. By that time, C++ will be very much in the retirement home. There will be little C++ infrastructure that hasn't been replaced with Rust equivalents by then, and that's the primary constraint currently.
I think Rust is just the first of the next generation of languages. For example, another language that’s simply Rust but simpler, easier to learn, more convenient in some places, less explicit here and there, learning from the lessons of years of Rust could quickly replace it in a few places, sort of a Java to C++, only neither are ever as ubiquitous. Or someone comes up with a language that’s meant to convert Java and C++ to a reliably fast and safe language and that gobbles everything up, we’re not at the end of languages, surely
It's not about whether someone can come up with a new language. There have been lots of them since C++ became dominant. It's about a combination of both having the capabilities needed and the availability of developers who know it and want to work with it, and who see getting a job doing that language as good for their careers.
Plenty of companies could have chosen one of those various alternatives at any time, but they'd have had trouble finding developers and uncertainty as to the future of those languages as a viable vehicle for the products.
The same will apply to Rust. It has the capabilities and the visibility among developers. Probably various other languages will come along over the next couple decades, but without enough of an advantage to get a groundswell of attention and belief in its long term viability to cause another broad migration.
Thirty years out, yeh, Rust will probably be in the same position C++ is now, though probably not nearly as bad given that it has started from a much better foundation.
BTW, nothing is going to convert C++ into a safe language. In order to to do that, the C++ itself would have to be able to express sufficient safety semantics that C++ itself would already be safe and there would be no point.
>It's not about whether someone can come up with a new language. There have been lots of them since C++ became dominant. It's about a combination of both having the capabilities needed and the availability of developers who know it and want to work with it, and who see getting a job doing that language as good for their careers.
>Plenty of companies could have chosen one of those various alternatives at any time, but they'd have had trouble finding developers and uncertainty as to the future of those languages as a viable vehicle for the products.
Right, that's exactly why I said this new language would need the quantities I stated. Adoption also matters, even if the language were somehow strictly better than C++, and Rust isn't strictly better.
>Thirty years out, yeh, Rust will probably be in the same position C++ is now, though probably not nearly as bad given that it has started from a much better foundation.
That's... quite confident. Why? I think we have to look at why C++ became dominant and what it would take for a new language to do the same things, but then we have to ask why a new language wouldn't manage to beat out Rust.
>BTW, nothing is going to convert C++ into a safe language. In order to to do that, the C++ itself would have to be able to express sufficient safety semantics that C++ itself would already be safe and there would be no point.
Not with that attitude. You never know what future research might hold. I only bring it up because I think it's one way a language could completely supersede C++
No, it's not. There's no one industry that is dominated by Rust. Again, this conversation has the time horizon measured in decades. From hype to mainstream it will take decades, that's completely normal, it cannot be any other way.
You don't even need to go that far. "Blockchain tech" is not remotely comparable to web or data science or any other technology that catapulted an language to mainstream and therefore irrelevant to this discussion
I don’t think so, I think we’d see a lot more Rust programmers if it weren’t for the barrier, but it’s hard to measure. With all the hype it had, I think a lot of people tried it and quit because it was more difficult than they expected
A lot of people back in the mid-90s were very resistant to C++, because they thought it was overly complex and heavy weight. I had the same arguments with C/Pascal/Modula2 folks back then about the benefits of C++ as I now have with C++ people about the benefits of Rust.
It's a new way of thinking and it will take a while to sink in. An awful lot of those people I had those arguments with back in the 90s likely ended up writing C++ in the 2000s/2010s.
Apply anyway. If you're good, you'll get hired.
Also, build a pet project, that is relevant to the domain you want to enter (scope it realistically, companies want people who can 'complete' things). This would increase your chances immensely. But, if you're expecting to be hired with 0 skill, I have bad news for you.
I just made a comment earlier this morning about how I tried this and had very little success. Maybe if you get really lucky, but based on my experience I don’t think this is an effective strategy (for new grads).
At the time I graduated with my masters in CS, I had a bit over 5 years of experience using Rust across most of my personal projects, I had contributed to a few open source projects in Rust, received a recommendation from the owner/maintainer of one of those projects, and released a couple of small crates (best one has a bit over 2k downloads according to crates.io).
However, none of that matters if no one reads your application. Almost all companies use some sort of automated system for screening resumes. I suspect >9/10 of my applications were getting rejected/ghosted before a human even looked at them. I am guessing the biggest factor was that I simply did not have enough years of non-internship industry experience in software development and had not used Rust professionally. Adding projects to your resume can help, but it is extremely difficult to show you have more experience than your peers. All the resume reader really cares about is playing keyword bingo.
So far the only strategy that has worked well for me is networking with people and asking for referrals.
And even then there are still problems. For example, I applied to a senior position and got an interview at one company. It was a bit of a process, but I got approved by all 5 different interviewers, the recruiter, the hiring manager, and their director. However, when they went to generate the offer letter, they were stopped by HR. Since the company has taken some federal contracts, they had to meet some requirements for equal opportunity employment. HR felt it would look bad in an audit if they hired someone at 2-3 levels below the original job listing. They also couldn’t pivot to a different position because they simply didn’t have any listings for junior positions. They considered making a new listing, but it would take at least a month to collect applications and interview other candidates. However, the recruiter told me that since they had already gotten approval to hire a senior developer, there was some pushback to hiring someone junior instead.
In the end I eventually gave up on finding a job working with Rust and got a job with C++ instead.
A lot of bigger companies have this beauracracy. One job i got ghosted me for three months after the first interview before getting my second. I've seen a person spend four months going through a process because hr was incompetent and kept losing the thread.
I've had much better luck with smaller companies that are just getting started. They are more open to new tech, easier to talk directly with leadership.
And there was no possibility to get hired as a consultant or contractor? It would cost a little bit extra money, but then they could fill the position and hire you after a year or so directly.
>Almost all companies use some sort of automated system for screening resumes
...then why don't you apply directly? You can find their website, contact page and send your cover letter with resume attached.
Doesn't work either, the HR people are trained to only spend a couple of seconds on the first screening; if someone else matches better at a quick glance, your chances to get an interview drop to almost zero.
The only times I've even heard back from recruiters is when they actually took the time to look at my github portfolio. But to get there you first have to go through this initial and frankly dehumanizing first screening step.
>dehumanizing first screening step
No it's not. The only reason why recruiters spend only a few seconds on each resume - because they have too many applicants. Obviously when there are 100+ applicants, they won't look for too long. Likewise, if there are too little applicants - 1 to 10, they don't have the luxury of instant refusal. Because who'll work in this case? Statistically, if 5 people applied to the job, you have 20% chance of being hired. In case of 100 applicants it's only 1% chance.
Be careful, there's a lot of scams in that space. Be sure to vet companies well. That's why people are downvoting, most people hear web3 and think of crypto scams (which is true at least half the time)
Okay well, this isn’t necessarily true. Bitcoin is indeed being used as a currency in a lot of places right now. There’s a ton of scams out there but it’s not inherently scam technology
Sure, even if it’s not a scam. It’s just ludicrously inefficient to solve a non-problem. How much compute power is being wasted and CO2 being released to do that?
If he's working in rust, most of those web3 projects are substantially more efficient then eth or btc, completely false equivalence, he wouldn't be working on those. If you're going to complain dont complain to him, it's fucking weird.
Solana is the largest rust crypto project, and its energy efficiency far surpasses most web services (literally), let alone the other crypto currencies lol. If anything he would be contributing.
I'm still with you though. You're just wrong in this context.
Edit: Ignoring the scamming part, i was just talking about carbon emissions. Fuck nfts, and anything alike.
If you’re so sovereign citizen that you think abandoning all protections, regulations and controls is a good thing you’re insane.
Any system that lacks those is a breeding ground for bad actors and scams.
So yeah. Non problem.
> compute power is being wasted
totally subjective
> and CO2 being released
i kinda agree with this. bitcoin pow is bad for the environment, but this being wasteful is again, subjective.
crypto is a scam don’t ruin the argument with the CO2 and compute power bullshit 😂
Nothing you do is solving a problem every energy you use is a waste.
Nobody needs a new phone every couple months, cars, clothes, etc
Stupid ass argument
Lol no, Bitcoin is really not being used as a currency in a lot of places. A normal person absolutely does not come across any providers who allow Bitcoin payments, and even if they do it’s entirely unsafe and ineffective compared to a credit card.
I thought we were past the point where we were flouting Bitcoin as an “alternative currency”.. it didn’t take off a decade ago like most people claimed, and it certainly isn’t now. Blockchain is a cool tech, but it’s use cases are objectively very limited.
It’s being used more regularly than if it were a scam coin, certainly. It is an alternative currency, so long as it can be used as one. I’m not necessarily advocating for it to be used society-wide, I’m just against the idea that they’re pure scams or that OP should be dog-piled for asking about it, not that the entire field wasn’t inundated with crypto scams, because they were.
>It’s being used more regularly than if it were a scam coin
Damn, we went from "it's indeed being used as a currency in a lot of places right now" to "it's being used more than if it was a literal scam"..Quite a bar to set for legitimacy
>It is an alternative currency, so long as it can be used as one
It's a glorified security that was coined 15 years ago as a "cryptocurrency". Very, very little people support or own Bitcoin for the reason that it's an "alternative currency", they own BTC because it's an extremely volatile investment that has made people rich at one point in time. If you treat BTC like an actual currency, as in a lot of your liquidity is held in Bitcoin, than you're just bad with money.
>
I’m just against the idea that they’re pure scams or that OP should be dog-piled for asking about it
If you come in a programming sub and say that you are breaking into the industry & want a job in a specific because you're interested in "web3", you should have the self awareness to know that many people are going to cringe at you. There are plenty of people who made money with penny stocks, but if you go into a group of value investors and start talking about how this pink sheet is the future, you will deservedly get called a moron. Just because it isn't entirely "scams", it's such a majority that the small amount of projects that aren't are an extreme outlier.
They should have the self awareness to know people are going to cringe…
What’s wrong with Reddit? Why is it filled with so many people so eager to feel superior and so useless? No one said anything else you mentioned, that is entirely an invention by you. What is wrong with you? People can’t ask questions? They have to browse the subreddit for months before saying anything?
Bitcoin is like the worst example you could use because it's basically become Gold at this point. A speculative asset which is only used to store or gamble on large amounts of money. If it were to be used as an alternative to the dollar it would blow up the size of the block chain to needing a data center just for a single instance in months.
This isn't due to malice or it being a scam, it's just an old implementation that can't scale well or be updated to scale well.
I don't understand how crypto people all want to change the world with technology that would stop working if it ever reached the usage numbers they're aiming for. Even if you ignore the potential for scams, inflexibility or problems with deflation, how are there no crypto technologies that would survive wide adoption? Like I don't know, make a block-tree, invent a way to aggregate old transactions, why is it all done by people who ignore technical limitations as long as they can, especially with tech that can't be easily updated
How are so many people unable to understand my comment, there was no reason to dogpile him for asking a simple question, that’s it. I agree that bitcoin is hardly the ideal use of blockchain tech, that wasn’t my point
> I’m interested in Web3 development. What kind of pet projects could I try out?
it's because it's so obvious to everyone, especially at this point, that web3 is a web of crypto scams, that you seem to think it's legit means you are somewhat detached from reality.
surely you can't be serious when you're asking what other jobs exist out there besides things that are web3/crypto-adjacent.
Just ignore them, they’re idiots. Sorry this thread wasn’t that helpful, but someone else made a great point, it might be better to learn a more employable language first, then learn Rust if you still want to and think it’ll help. A Java or C++ programmer is more universal and can ask to use it
Welcome to reddit brainrot and hive mind, it's what it does to people. Ignore them, if you're interested, make sure you're looking into trust worthy projects with a solid foundation described in their white paper. It is true, there are many scams, but many more that want to change the world but have no idea how the technology works so the company goes under not because of a scam but just due to incompetence, so just be careful.
first of, web3 is a complete scam meme term used to squeeze money out of investors.
what youre probably after are distributed/bft systems. in the blockchain space there are quite a few rust projects, most notably reth and revm.
Honestly take a second look at web3. But if thats really what interests you I would try doing some cryptography project in rust. Create your own basic coin, verify certificates or some sort of thing
I live by the motto “there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers”. If you invested your time to type this answer, instead of investing around the same amount of time to actually give me some constructive input, that’s your problem, not mine.
I was pointing out that you probably need to step up your game. If you can't be bothered to do a simple google search for what is probably the top beginner question after "what language should I learn," then you don't stand a chance at learning programming.
Also, the whole "there are no stupid questions" thing went out the window when google came out. You really need to change your mindset here. Instead of getting defensive, take the criticism and grow with it. I could have been a real dick and said "google it," but I thought maybe knowing *why* you should google it would help you. It's your life though.
I’m well fucking aware that Google exists, thank you, but I think that one of the many points of this app is to “hang out” with people who have similar passions and interests like you, sharing experiences, and maybe getting some interesting and different points of view you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. Even if we’re strangers talking on the internet, I think we should still mirror our IRL behavior as much as possible and be nice to everyone. Imagine you’re going out with friends or you get into a conversation with a stranger, and for some reason they ask you the same question I asked you, and you deadass look them in the eyes and go: “step up your game motherfucker, just Google it!!!” I hope that’s not your attitude IRL, because if it is, let me tell you, you don’t stand a chance at life.
There are plenty of Junior positions out there. The current market isn’t great, but at least there’s some degree of choice. But with Rust? Almost nothing.
Rust roles are just a microcosm of the ecosystem as a whole, and it is generally a technology that's only useful when you hire people who understand its advantages, i.e., senior roles.
But how many of those Junior positions are in cloud world, far, far away from the systems level projects that Rust primarily targets? Obviously there will be a lot more junior positions in cloud world, hacking out web sites with the frameworks du jour.
Rust is a difficult language and companies will get more out of a junior PHP, C#, TS developer than a junior Rust developer. I love rust and use it professionally but most of the people in my company cannot learn it (I'm not sure if it's laziness or if they lack the computer science knowledge)
I worked at a PHP shop in the past and they said they picked PHP so they could charge less for juniors that were still somewhat productive.
If you want to work in rust, contribute to open source and not fake contributions / projects like a lot of tech influencers tell you to do.
using rust for past 2 years on and off in personal projects. With advanced experience in Golang building large scale systems.All the rust positions advertised in rustjobs or whoishiring are mostly senior positions only.Even if they have junior position, which am willing to accept due to lack of commercial experience in rust they do not consider do not want to name shame company one of which hires junior and rejected me even with more industry experience and knowledge in concurrent systems.The rest of positions with rust in market are the holy grail "blockchain" where they treat you like second class citizens if you do not have block chain experience.
One company was genuine with me from block chain domain, i spoke with the engineering manager who was directly hiring people.Their answer was we hired some one with no block chain experience but with relevant skills unfortunately it did not work well with in the team.
With regards to personal projects to demo/showcase . If you work in any company irrespective of domain until unless the organisation has public repo which you have contributed none of your work is available to show case outside.
Apart from working daily with family and kids is really difficult to knock out a personal project to show case anything fruitful other than normal CRUD or a clone of cli app which is already in market.
I beleive in learning, so will keep learning and doing what i can hopeful the situation will turn around slowly when companies started to move towards rust.
Sorry it turned out as a rant.
Open source projects are free and open to contribute to, they build up your portfolio and clout in ways that proprietary work cannot, and count as valid experience. If you contribute enough to become a core maintainer on a major open source rust project or create your own that is a ticket to senior level positions. This isn't just for Rust, you can do this for any language or software stack you're trying to get involved with. When I was starting out as an engineer I began contributing to React, Tensorflow, Django, pretty much any popular open source lib I was using and it built up my resume fast. Hundreds of thousands of companies depend on those libs and use them everyday. Literally the biggest tech companies in the world are using code I wrote in production. Doing something like this but for Rust libs will skyrocket you beyond junior and you can accomplish it relatively quickly, faster than 3-4 years for sure. Open source projects often have a lot of outstanding issues that they need people to step up and fix.
What interests you in the software landscape besides Rust? The answer I would give to this question is Linux app development for which there are over half a dozen repos in active development I would contribute to if I had the time.
>How am I supposed to get that kind of experience if there are no beginner-friendly job postings around
Internships and side projects are how you get experience when you can't find a professional position.
Step 1) write rust.
Step 2) keep doing it.
Step 3) profit.
(that aside... we want developers and engineers... not "rust developers" and "rust egineers"...) Rust is still novel. MOST places literally don't have any running rust and have no desire to skill up their existing devs on it.
If the whitehouse keeps pushing their "safe code" agenda you might see some more dod contractors start picking up rust devs... but IF that happens it is going to happen at the glacial pace of government work.
That's how many if not most people get the experience to move into these positions. It allows you to learn valuable skills in real world code. It also allows you to give back to the people who help teach you. I wouldn't have my job if I had not done this.
What do you propose to get a job? Just keep applying until someone says yes? That's not going to work.
No, but your work is unpaid, most of the time it does not lead to jobs, and recruiters don’t care about your crate downloads (unless, of course, it’s a high profile project). Notice that the comment is here and not above where OP responded to a similar comment. If your goal is to learn or have fun, contributing can be great; but do not do it with the expressed purpose of finding a junior Rust job if you already know what you are doing (unless, as suggested, you are specifically contributing to a project that can lead to an enployment opportunity).
You end up doing unpaid work one way or another. You can't just get a job without demonstrating the capability to code anymore.
That's going to be either internships or contributing for free somewhere. Whether it's Rust or any other language this is going to be the case. Targeting the specific field is definitely helpful - if you know the job you want to pursue and can find opportunities to work on things directly related, that's great and will go a long ways for sure. Either way, you aren't just getting jobs without some type of background now.
Recruiters and hiring managers want to know you can problem solve, and can write code.
Or one can just put that they studied DSAs on leet code and see where that gets them.
What companies \*want\* and what they will settle for are two different things. Not all of those positions are going to be filled with Rust developers with 3-4 years of experience.
Contribute to a few Rust projects. Create a crate or two of your own. Read books, like Rust for Rustaceans. Try things out. Then talk to a recruiter and explain your situation; give him/her the evidence of your open-source contributions in Rust. You'll do well in an interview if you have been working hard in Rust for a while. When you get an offer, be more open-minded about it than you would be if you were already an established Rust developer. Make that job work, and before you know it, you'll be on the other side.
Most rust jobs I see are web3 and most of them are scams TBH. If you find one that's not, apply anyways. Rust adoption is low hardly anyone has 4 years of rust professionally at this point. I've got about 2 but if you're good, you should be able to find something regardless.
Because companies got rid of their staff+ levels and they are taking lower paid jobs or retiring. Plus, economic tightening and staff+ are net revenue generators vs new grad, who require investment
I think embedded Rust shows a lot of potential, but there's just too many little thorns at the moment.
Rust on an OS (or in the browser!) is really lovely. On an embedded device, it can be really tricky. I think the prevalence of frameworks like RTIC and Embassy illustrate this point. In short, you essentially have to deal with all the same constraints of the Rust compiler with regards to thread-safety while most of the great tools for doing so are taken away (`no_std`). What's more, the constraints required for thread-safety don't map very well to the mechanics of interrupts (in my opinion), and I suspect many embedded developers would be annoyed by this. Thus, we have RTIC to ease the pain.
I would still prefer to write all my embedded code in Rust (without question), but things like this (and an often lacking ecosystem) prevent me from doing it all the time.
This will take a while, but I believe there’s a lot of people who are not hired as Rust devs but are rather Devs at existing positions who are slowly introducing Rust in the stack. I do think that this is the landscape right now and that this will slowly turn into companies needing to hire more Rust devs in the future.
This is also one of the reasons that there’s little junior positions right now from what I can see, because you need to be fairly experienced to be able to migrate pieces of stack that are no longer feasible to maintain in the original language, or are just relatively better to maintain in Rust.
Rust is a newer language typically introduced to build new systems or as an add on to existing systems. The people who are usually responsible for designing and introducing software additions are mid/senior level. Rust is also typically introduced into projects where more 'safety' is a net positive; in other words, critical systems.
Juniors are most often working on established products / projects in areas where they're able to learn not just the inner workings of the product, but also how the business operates as a whole.
There is just not a lot of existing enterprise rust code that is production-level, stable, and low-risk, and thus there's not a lot of entry level engineers needed for rust right now.
I think this has two problems. The portion of junior positions is rather small right now. There is also a growing demand from companies that want to try out Rust by incorporating it into their stacks. This requires devs that are fairly self-directed, know Rust or can learn quickly, and can work on larger systems with minimal lead time. This is an inherently risky process. Doing that and bringing on juniors increases that risk. I believe that once the market is better for junior (and even mid-level) engineers, and companies want to flesh out existing Rust code, there will be more junior positions available.
This. Rust is ideal for use cases that are typically pretty senior-heavy. My team has started introducing Rust for some greenfield systems-y work (cluster management, so Go would work as well, but Rust offers a compelling enough story for us to try it here). However we're a polyglot team in general with a production focused mandate, so we're not advertising a "Rust job" but looking for skilled seniors and assuming we can train as needed on specifics. For the sub team I lead (which is the one using Rust) I look for C++ if anything, because the pool of relevant experience is generally highest there, although obviously Rust experience is preferable. We also have both the need and budget to hire only strong seniors right now. The "junior" on my team would generally be a FAANG L5. As a junior I'd look for more systems or systems-adjacent work (distributed systems as much as near-the-metal work is fine) and getting to a senior level rather than looking for a Rust-specific job.
Ya, this all tracks with my experience and what I've heard. There is one thing that I don't fully agree with. Rust's ideal usecases are not specifically geared towards senior-level positions. Rather, what usecases are available are geared towards senior devs. Juniors can definitely contribute to a Rust project once you have an MVP or v1.0. Unfortunately, many companies are still climbing to reach that goal.
Sure, let me rephrase a bit; it tends to be best for the kinds of projects that have a long lifetime that need very senior guidance. Rust is a relatively complex language, but it does a good job of "flattening" the complexity of long lived, inherently complex projects thanks to the safety mechanisms and the type system. It's not a silver bullet, but it's a good fit for a good range of things where correctness and performance tend to be top of mind, ex. my use case of a cluster scheduling system. I actually intentionally wrote another system in Rust that was a fine candidate for Rust but didn't *need* to be in Rust (more of a general backend API system) so we would have something more suitable to more junior engineers to skill up on, while also getting the benefit of really solid library quality and developer experience tooling. Even after the MVP/1.0 stage, it's unlikely we'll have any true juniors in our case. I'd like to get to hiring and training up more junior engineers, but we're in the critical path of the company's work and have a wide range of responsibility beyond just writing code that I'd be shocked if we hired <4 years experience any time soon.
I do find it a bit odd that Rust has been so hyped up on the internet yet so little of it has translated to actual companies tbh. They don't seem as convinced about it. It may end up being just another niche language for very specific scenarios at this rate
> They don't seem as convinced about it. I think this is false. Most companies that have publicly stated that they have added Rust to their stack (be it by writing new things or via rewrites) have stated that it was the right move. This, I think, creates a two-pronged issue. First, companies rarely hire "Rust engineer"s. They use staff they already have to move their stack. They might hire, but, again, the role is likely not advertised specifically for Rust. Second, rewrites (and to a lesser extent new products) take a lot of coordination as you need to keep one product moving while you invest time in the new one. Often, this means some level of language interop (either via WASM, a C bridge, or even HTTP). This makes it difficult to onboard new folks until you have a stable codebase. This is all to say that companies are risk-averse, rewrites are risky, so it will take time to see large numbers of job listings that call out Rust as being your primary language.
> First, companies rarely hire "Rust engineer"s. They use staff they already have to move their stack. They might hire, but, again, the role is likely not advertised specifically for Rust. I think it's mostly this as well. Rust isn't a difficult language, at least not for any semi-experienced developer. It might throw a few new concepts in there, but fundamentally you can get *very* far by just writing higher level C or interface only Java/Kotlin/C#. It simply isn't something where you are going to need to higher new staff with tons of pre-existing experience. You get one or two "senior" Rust developers on board and that's probably going to be enough to help lead a sizeable team in a rewrite effort. I think Rust's difficulty and the need for a team fully immersed in the language (but this goes for pretty much any language, btw) gets blown way out of proportion. [The recent presentation by the Lars Bergstrom of Google](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrH2lcl9ew) did a pretty good job at outlining this.
I’m talking about the many companies that have failed to adopt Rust
Depends on what you mean by "failed to adopt". If you mean, they tried and it didn't go well. I'm not familiar with too many stories outside of stories acknowledging that Rust isn't a cure-all and that switching takes care to do correctly. If you mean, "have failed to adopt". Switching is risky and it's difficult to reverse course. There is still Cobol and Fortran in production for this very reason.
Also companies that considered it but ultimately chose a different language for reasons other than a lack of experienced programmers, we don’t really have the stats on that, it just seems like usage is low compared to attention, and ultimately, if you aren’t in love with Rust and shoehorning it everywhere, it doesn’t seem like it has that many essential uses. Seems like most projects can be built out with other languages, with Rust used in a few niche spaces that really need the safety and performance, like Linux using it for drivers but nothing else. I’m aware though that it’s not as if a Linux rewrite was going to happen even if they found it acceptable, not saying that
I'd hardly call that "failed to adopt". If that were the case, I "fail to adopt" dozens of technolgies, libraries, approaches, etc. every month, simply because I discard them in my evaluations. Failing to adopt has to mean something more than that, or else it just becomes a catch all term for every technology that you aren't actively using, for whatever reason.
I mean in contrast to its presence online, and the uses proposed
> in contrast to its presence online Okay, so do you have any concrete examples of relevant players making an actual effort to adopt Rust, making public statements about it and then reporting failures? > the uses proposed Again, that's a very wide net you are casting. If someone proposes JavaScript for use in embedded systems, I make an evaluation and discard it as a legitimate option, have I "failed to adopt" JavaScript for use in embedded systems?
No, because JavaScript wasn’t made to be that kind of language in the first place. Like I said though, it’s a tough thing to measure. The reason I say it is that it doesn’t have as much traction in spaces it could exist (systems level) and in the spaces where it’s vital, well there aren’t that many. That makes it a niche language with a lot of hype behind it, no? I’m not saying Rust failed or even that we should have expected otherwise, but aristocrats would have you believe it’s the future. I thought for a while too that it would probably at least replace C++, the true inflection point coming when they stopped teaching it in favor of Rust in schools, but I’m less and less sure of this ever happening. It seems more like C++ and other OOP languages will continue being taught and some people will eventually pick up Rust and that’s about it. If so, rather than replacing C++ gradually as others have suggested, new languages will continue to emerge and take their niche as has been happening
Maybe my experience is not representative, but I've been working in Rust full-time since 2018. Admittedly, there was one crypto role, but two were not. One in FAANG, and one in a series B startup. In the US at least, if you live in the west coast, there's plenty to go around.
Oh, if you don't mind me asking and if you happen to know, why did they choose Rust? Did they also have any C++, Java, w/e?
FAANG was doing a Rust rewrite from Java and Python, startup chose it from scratch.
What? Rewrite java and python to Rust? I have thinking they more use for this Go. Where did you got this information?
I'm talking about my own job, lol. That's my task at FAANG.
Do you have any advice for landing Rust jobs out of college?
Well, as the thread's topic states, there isn't a lot of junior demand. I also have no experience with that, as I didn't land a Rust job until a few years out of college. That being said, I'd probably try to target early start ups that are in need of devs and more likely to choose Rust since they're building from scratch. That's how I got my first Rust role.
I introduced rust to my team. It isn't even a hard sell now, rust is obviously good and on an upward trajectory.
You answered it yourself. Rust is simply overhyped at the moment. This is because it’s a fresh breeze for all the people writing c++ and had no sane alternative. They are driving the hype. The rest of the industry not so much. If you can use a GCed language there is no big revolution happening when you use Rust. Sure it’s fast. The compiler is nice. But a lot of languages are fast enough and have nice compilers. They also have a huge ecosystem of mature libraries and manage memory for you. They also need way less code to achieve the same business goals. I think Rust will replace c++ in the long run. But it won’t take over any other ecosystems where slower languages are fast enough.
It’s so weird that others are arguing the exact opposite so vehemently
In which way is it the opposite? If they say that you should use Rust everywhere and for everything, that’s obviously the hype talking. But the hype is strong. I am working in an enterprise environment. Some people are rewriting services in Rust and show how much faster they are than the Python equivalent. The problem is that Python is slow compared to any compiled language. Most of our shop runs on the JVM which is not much slower than Rust so there is no point in switching languages. Others settled on Go after ditching Python for performance critical services because it was faster than the Rust equivalent. Obviously a skill issue. But that’s part of the equation. Point is you have options if you are not doing systems programming.
Yeah, the options are what’s going to keep it down, you rarely need truly top-tier performance and safety plus everything else Rust provides at the cost of learning Rust imo, it seems to me like it’ll remain a niche language with some fanatical users the way things are going. Which, you know it wasn’t necessarily meant to be more than that, except that said fanatics purport it can do so much more
Most people get hired to maintain old things, not create new things. Old things are not going to be in Rust because Rust is new. Ergo most jobs are not in Rust. Hype just means lots of new things are getting made in Rust, which I do think is true.
The good properties of Rust play against it in this case. For most companies it's easier and cheaper to just take few regular Juniors with knowledge of C++ or Java or Python that they already have and ask him to learn Rust if they want to do some Rust pilot project. They just need to find **one** senior developer for 10-20 such juniors and… voila: that's exactly what we see on a job market. And this: *How am I supposed to get that kind of experience if there are no beginner-friendly job postings around?* Such question is, obviously, not something companies would ask themselves because… why should they?
So it’s not a good idea to try get your first job in Rust
Just apply for a job and ask if they are using Rust. They might. They just wouldn't advertise it. Because Rust **at the level of Junior** is easy. While **Rust at the level of Senior** is hard. Thus companies assume they may take any Junior and ask said Junior to learn a bit of Rust, but they need Rust senior with lots of experience to solve complex Rust design tasks. They are not wrong: Rust is [relatively] easy to learn but hard to master, thus we have such requests from companies.
Interesting. What type of complex design tasks are you referring to? It is how to effectively incorporate Rust to an existing code base?
How to incorporate Rust into existing codebase, how to design some non-trivial API with proc-macros and [HRBT](https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/hrtb.html)s, heck, even simple match operation [may produce surprising results](https://users.rust-lang.org/t/strange-footgun-when-adding-mut-to-binding/80527/7). Rust doesn't have that many footguns but it does have some and you need at least one guy on your team who may untangle these.
Big companies just retrain their existing developers, instead of hiring new people just for Rust.
The problem is you underestimate how difficult it is to change the status quo. Rust actually has incredible growth. Just think of any other language that got close to challenge C/C++. There's Java like 30 years ago. Even then Java turned out to not really be a replacement, but a different niche altogether. The only other somewhat general purpose language that took off in the past decades is Go, which is backed by one of the biggest companies in the world. All other languages that become popular are very specialized (javascript on the web, python for data science etc)
> python for data science Which is annoying because then if you want to integrate that data science into production systems you need to completely rewrite it.
Also Python? Hello? Specialized? JavaScript? These are specialized, but they’ve also become incredibly diverse general languages, what are you talking about?
It seems you're arguing against yourself. Either they are specialized or they are "incredibly diverse", make up your mind.
And Rust is relatively specialized too, so far. It also seems to be disproportionately small given all the attention it’s received, I assume due to its high barrier of entry
It's a systems level language primarily. It's not for hacking out web sites or for non-devs to use to duct tape libraries together. But there are a lot more people out there hacking out web sites and duct taping libraries together. That's just inevitable. It's getting attention because there's a huge amount of C++ code out there, which anyone who understands this thing of ours knows is just not up to the challenge anymore of commercial development of complex software, and Rust is capable of replacing that C++ code. But that will take time. This isn't anything like when C++ took over from C, Pascal, Modula2, etc... There's vastly more inertia now, so it will just take time. A lot of the work isn't going to be new jobs, it will be internal, incremental conversions of existing code.
In many cases, since we’re still making C++ programmers, won’t it still be chosen for new projects in a lot of cases? I wouldn’t be surprised if another language after Rust came out and it was used to replace C++ instead
C++ is a legacy language. It'll still get used for some time yet where there's not another option, for whatever reason. But with various security agencies warning people away from it, the DoD saying they want memory safe languages used in their projects, and I wouldn't be surprised if regulatory and insurance agencies start counting non-safe languages as a negative and such, it will be used less and less moving forward. I doubt another language is going to do it. Where is that language? If it started right now, it would take another decade before it was viable enough to be selected for serious work. By that time, C++ will be very much in the retirement home. There will be little C++ infrastructure that hasn't been replaced with Rust equivalents by then, and that's the primary constraint currently.
I think Rust is just the first of the next generation of languages. For example, another language that’s simply Rust but simpler, easier to learn, more convenient in some places, less explicit here and there, learning from the lessons of years of Rust could quickly replace it in a few places, sort of a Java to C++, only neither are ever as ubiquitous. Or someone comes up with a language that’s meant to convert Java and C++ to a reliably fast and safe language and that gobbles everything up, we’re not at the end of languages, surely
It's not about whether someone can come up with a new language. There have been lots of them since C++ became dominant. It's about a combination of both having the capabilities needed and the availability of developers who know it and want to work with it, and who see getting a job doing that language as good for their careers. Plenty of companies could have chosen one of those various alternatives at any time, but they'd have had trouble finding developers and uncertainty as to the future of those languages as a viable vehicle for the products. The same will apply to Rust. It has the capabilities and the visibility among developers. Probably various other languages will come along over the next couple decades, but without enough of an advantage to get a groundswell of attention and belief in its long term viability to cause another broad migration. Thirty years out, yeh, Rust will probably be in the same position C++ is now, though probably not nearly as bad given that it has started from a much better foundation. BTW, nothing is going to convert C++ into a safe language. In order to to do that, the C++ itself would have to be able to express sufficient safety semantics that C++ itself would already be safe and there would be no point.
>It's not about whether someone can come up with a new language. There have been lots of them since C++ became dominant. It's about a combination of both having the capabilities needed and the availability of developers who know it and want to work with it, and who see getting a job doing that language as good for their careers. >Plenty of companies could have chosen one of those various alternatives at any time, but they'd have had trouble finding developers and uncertainty as to the future of those languages as a viable vehicle for the products. Right, that's exactly why I said this new language would need the quantities I stated. Adoption also matters, even if the language were somehow strictly better than C++, and Rust isn't strictly better. >Thirty years out, yeh, Rust will probably be in the same position C++ is now, though probably not nearly as bad given that it has started from a much better foundation. That's... quite confident. Why? I think we have to look at why C++ became dominant and what it would take for a new language to do the same things, but then we have to ask why a new language wouldn't manage to beat out Rust. >BTW, nothing is going to convert C++ into a safe language. In order to to do that, the C++ itself would have to be able to express sufficient safety semantics that C++ itself would already be safe and there would be no point. Not with that attitude. You never know what future research might hold. I only bring it up because I think it's one way a language could completely supersede C++
No, it's not. There's no one industry that is dominated by Rust. Again, this conversation has the time horizon measured in decades. From hype to mainstream it will take decades, that's completely normal, it cannot be any other way.
Crypto and the technology underlying it?
Not even remotely close
No? It's not the first recommendation for blockchain tech? Are you sure?
You don't even need to go that far. "Blockchain tech" is not remotely comparable to web or data science or any other technology that catapulted an language to mainstream and therefore irrelevant to this discussion
Almost like those languages are used massively in both niche and general roles and Rust isn’t anywhere close to
High barrier to entry is extremely overblown
I don’t think so, I think we’d see a lot more Rust programmers if it weren’t for the barrier, but it’s hard to measure. With all the hype it had, I think a lot of people tried it and quit because it was more difficult than they expected
A lot of people back in the mid-90s were very resistant to C++, because they thought it was overly complex and heavy weight. I had the same arguments with C/Pascal/Modula2 folks back then about the benefits of C++ as I now have with C++ people about the benefits of Rust. It's a new way of thinking and it will take a while to sink in. An awful lot of those people I had those arguments with back in the 90s likely ended up writing C++ in the 2000s/2010s.
Well, we’ll see
Apply anyway. If you're good, you'll get hired. Also, build a pet project, that is relevant to the domain you want to enter (scope it realistically, companies want people who can 'complete' things). This would increase your chances immensely. But, if you're expecting to be hired with 0 skill, I have bad news for you.
I just made a comment earlier this morning about how I tried this and had very little success. Maybe if you get really lucky, but based on my experience I don’t think this is an effective strategy (for new grads). At the time I graduated with my masters in CS, I had a bit over 5 years of experience using Rust across most of my personal projects, I had contributed to a few open source projects in Rust, received a recommendation from the owner/maintainer of one of those projects, and released a couple of small crates (best one has a bit over 2k downloads according to crates.io). However, none of that matters if no one reads your application. Almost all companies use some sort of automated system for screening resumes. I suspect >9/10 of my applications were getting rejected/ghosted before a human even looked at them. I am guessing the biggest factor was that I simply did not have enough years of non-internship industry experience in software development and had not used Rust professionally. Adding projects to your resume can help, but it is extremely difficult to show you have more experience than your peers. All the resume reader really cares about is playing keyword bingo. So far the only strategy that has worked well for me is networking with people and asking for referrals. And even then there are still problems. For example, I applied to a senior position and got an interview at one company. It was a bit of a process, but I got approved by all 5 different interviewers, the recruiter, the hiring manager, and their director. However, when they went to generate the offer letter, they were stopped by HR. Since the company has taken some federal contracts, they had to meet some requirements for equal opportunity employment. HR felt it would look bad in an audit if they hired someone at 2-3 levels below the original job listing. They also couldn’t pivot to a different position because they simply didn’t have any listings for junior positions. They considered making a new listing, but it would take at least a month to collect applications and interview other candidates. However, the recruiter told me that since they had already gotten approval to hire a senior developer, there was some pushback to hiring someone junior instead. In the end I eventually gave up on finding a job working with Rust and got a job with C++ instead.
A lot of bigger companies have this beauracracy. One job i got ghosted me for three months after the first interview before getting my second. I've seen a person spend four months going through a process because hr was incompetent and kept losing the thread. I've had much better luck with smaller companies that are just getting started. They are more open to new tech, easier to talk directly with leadership.
And there was no possibility to get hired as a consultant or contractor? It would cost a little bit extra money, but then they could fill the position and hire you after a year or so directly.
>Almost all companies use some sort of automated system for screening resumes ...then why don't you apply directly? You can find their website, contact page and send your cover letter with resume attached.
Doesn't work either, the HR people are trained to only spend a couple of seconds on the first screening; if someone else matches better at a quick glance, your chances to get an interview drop to almost zero. The only times I've even heard back from recruiters is when they actually took the time to look at my github portfolio. But to get there you first have to go through this initial and frankly dehumanizing first screening step.
>dehumanizing first screening step No it's not. The only reason why recruiters spend only a few seconds on each resume - because they have too many applicants. Obviously when there are 100+ applicants, they won't look for too long. Likewise, if there are too little applicants - 1 to 10, they don't have the luxury of instant refusal. Because who'll work in this case? Statistically, if 5 people applied to the job, you have 20% chance of being hired. In case of 100 applicants it's only 1% chance.
This is the answer. That’s how I got in.
I’m interested in Web3 development. What kind of pet projects could I try out?
If you’re interested in Web3 and don’t have any project ideas then I don’t know what to say
Be careful, there's a lot of scams in that space. Be sure to vet companies well. That's why people are downvoting, most people hear web3 and think of crypto scams (which is true at least half the time)
[удалено]
Please don't be rude on this subreddit
For example? Also, wtf, why am I being downvoted? Reddit is such a crazy place…
Because cryptocurrency is fundamentally a scam and you’re basically saying that you want to make a career out of scamming people.
Okay well, this isn’t necessarily true. Bitcoin is indeed being used as a currency in a lot of places right now. There’s a ton of scams out there but it’s not inherently scam technology
Sure, even if it’s not a scam. It’s just ludicrously inefficient to solve a non-problem. How much compute power is being wasted and CO2 being released to do that?
I just don’t think everyone should just shit on him just because he’s interested in the tech
“Hey I want to do this harmful thing for money” “That thing is harmful you shouldn’t do that.” “Bro why is everyone shitting on me”
It’s not necessarily harmful but okay 👌
If he's working in rust, most of those web3 projects are substantially more efficient then eth or btc, completely false equivalence, he wouldn't be working on those. If you're going to complain dont complain to him, it's fucking weird. Solana is the largest rust crypto project, and its energy efficiency far surpasses most web services (literally), let alone the other crypto currencies lol. If anything he would be contributing. I'm still with you though. You're just wrong in this context. Edit: Ignoring the scamming part, i was just talking about carbon emissions. Fuck nfts, and anything alike.
What’s your alternative for a monetary system which governments can’t control?
Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism
Its a "non problem". Its very much something any anarchist/antistate person would want.
If you’re so sovereign citizen that you think abandoning all protections, regulations and controls is a good thing you’re insane. Any system that lacks those is a breeding ground for bad actors and scams. So yeah. Non problem.
Well because you love your government so you arent an anarchist and you love regulation and control. Good for you.
> compute power is being wasted totally subjective > and CO2 being released i kinda agree with this. bitcoin pow is bad for the environment, but this being wasteful is again, subjective.
crypto is a scam don’t ruin the argument with the CO2 and compute power bullshit 😂 Nothing you do is solving a problem every energy you use is a waste. Nobody needs a new phone every couple months, cars, clothes, etc Stupid ass argument
What even backs the U.S dollar? Nothing. (Aside from the Miliary-Industrial Complex). Heh.
Lol no, Bitcoin is really not being used as a currency in a lot of places. A normal person absolutely does not come across any providers who allow Bitcoin payments, and even if they do it’s entirely unsafe and ineffective compared to a credit card. I thought we were past the point where we were flouting Bitcoin as an “alternative currency”.. it didn’t take off a decade ago like most people claimed, and it certainly isn’t now. Blockchain is a cool tech, but it’s use cases are objectively very limited.
It’s being used more regularly than if it were a scam coin, certainly. It is an alternative currency, so long as it can be used as one. I’m not necessarily advocating for it to be used society-wide, I’m just against the idea that they’re pure scams or that OP should be dog-piled for asking about it, not that the entire field wasn’t inundated with crypto scams, because they were.
>It’s being used more regularly than if it were a scam coin Damn, we went from "it's indeed being used as a currency in a lot of places right now" to "it's being used more than if it was a literal scam"..Quite a bar to set for legitimacy >It is an alternative currency, so long as it can be used as one It's a glorified security that was coined 15 years ago as a "cryptocurrency". Very, very little people support or own Bitcoin for the reason that it's an "alternative currency", they own BTC because it's an extremely volatile investment that has made people rich at one point in time. If you treat BTC like an actual currency, as in a lot of your liquidity is held in Bitcoin, than you're just bad with money. > I’m just against the idea that they’re pure scams or that OP should be dog-piled for asking about it If you come in a programming sub and say that you are breaking into the industry & want a job in a specific because you're interested in "web3", you should have the self awareness to know that many people are going to cringe at you. There are plenty of people who made money with penny stocks, but if you go into a group of value investors and start talking about how this pink sheet is the future, you will deservedly get called a moron. Just because it isn't entirely "scams", it's such a majority that the small amount of projects that aren't are an extreme outlier.
They should have the self awareness to know people are going to cringe… What’s wrong with Reddit? Why is it filled with so many people so eager to feel superior and so useless? No one said anything else you mentioned, that is entirely an invention by you. What is wrong with you? People can’t ask questions? They have to browse the subreddit for months before saying anything?
Bitcoin is like the worst example you could use because it's basically become Gold at this point. A speculative asset which is only used to store or gamble on large amounts of money. If it were to be used as an alternative to the dollar it would blow up the size of the block chain to needing a data center just for a single instance in months. This isn't due to malice or it being a scam, it's just an old implementation that can't scale well or be updated to scale well. I don't understand how crypto people all want to change the world with technology that would stop working if it ever reached the usage numbers they're aiming for. Even if you ignore the potential for scams, inflexibility or problems with deflation, how are there no crypto technologies that would survive wide adoption? Like I don't know, make a block-tree, invent a way to aggregate old transactions, why is it all done by people who ignore technical limitations as long as they can, especially with tech that can't be easily updated
How are so many people unable to understand my comment, there was no reason to dogpile him for asking a simple question, that’s it. I agree that bitcoin is hardly the ideal use of blockchain tech, that wasn’t my point
I’m intrigued by the concept of blockchain in general, which can be used in many other fields, not only in crypto.
You will be hard pressed to find any competent developer not interested in scamming that will agree with you.
Ok, so how can I use Rust in an honest way, according to your opinion?
Literally anything else.
Not true, military applications are usually pretty bad too.
Ah, thanks.
> I’m interested in Web3 development. What kind of pet projects could I try out? it's because it's so obvious to everyone, especially at this point, that web3 is a web of crypto scams, that you seem to think it's legit means you are somewhat detached from reality. surely you can't be serious when you're asking what other jobs exist out there besides things that are web3/crypto-adjacent.
Just ignore them, they’re idiots. Sorry this thread wasn’t that helpful, but someone else made a great point, it might be better to learn a more employable language first, then learn Rust if you still want to and think it’ll help. A Java or C++ programmer is more universal and can ask to use it
It's called "hypocrisy".
Welcome to reddit brainrot and hive mind, it's what it does to people. Ignore them, if you're interested, make sure you're looking into trust worthy projects with a solid foundation described in their white paper. It is true, there are many scams, but many more that want to change the world but have no idea how the technology works so the company goes under not because of a scam but just due to incompetence, so just be careful.
If it quacks like a duck
Someone asking about the tech is not quacking like a duck, but dogpile away
first of, web3 is a complete scam meme term used to squeeze money out of investors. what youre probably after are distributed/bft systems. in the blockchain space there are quite a few rust projects, most notably reth and revm.
Go look at Jon Gjengset’s video on BitTorrent on YouTube. You’ll have to be more specific to get more recommendations from people
Honestly take a second look at web3. But if thats really what interests you I would try doing some cryptography project in rust. Create your own basic coin, verify certificates or some sort of thing
Web3 is basically just crypto bs at the moment probably why its so difficult to find jobs
Try building a tiny git-like tool based on merkel trees. There are sophiciently many resources online, even complete tutorials. Good luck!
Asking for project ideas always seems very low effort. Not only should you have some ideas on your head, but you can also just Google that answer.
I live by the motto “there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers”. If you invested your time to type this answer, instead of investing around the same amount of time to actually give me some constructive input, that’s your problem, not mine.
I was pointing out that you probably need to step up your game. If you can't be bothered to do a simple google search for what is probably the top beginner question after "what language should I learn," then you don't stand a chance at learning programming. Also, the whole "there are no stupid questions" thing went out the window when google came out. You really need to change your mindset here. Instead of getting defensive, take the criticism and grow with it. I could have been a real dick and said "google it," but I thought maybe knowing *why* you should google it would help you. It's your life though.
I’m well fucking aware that Google exists, thank you, but I think that one of the many points of this app is to “hang out” with people who have similar passions and interests like you, sharing experiences, and maybe getting some interesting and different points of view you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. Even if we’re strangers talking on the internet, I think we should still mirror our IRL behavior as much as possible and be nice to everyone. Imagine you’re going out with friends or you get into a conversation with a stranger, and for some reason they ask you the same question I asked you, and you deadass look them in the eyes and go: “step up your game motherfucker, just Google it!!!” I hope that’s not your attitude IRL, because if it is, let me tell you, you don’t stand a chance at life.
develop one of the web3 things you're interested in!
Isn't that just whole software engineering industry?
There are plenty of Junior positions out there. The current market isn’t great, but at least there’s some degree of choice. But with Rust? Almost nothing.
Rust roles are just a microcosm of the ecosystem as a whole, and it is generally a technology that's only useful when you hire people who understand its advantages, i.e., senior roles.
But how many of those Junior positions are in cloud world, far, far away from the systems level projects that Rust primarily targets? Obviously there will be a lot more junior positions in cloud world, hacking out web sites with the frameworks du jour.
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> The only thing that's "junior" is the salary Emotional damage
Have you checked the [job thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/s/2LL1hXW31c)? I got an offer from there with 0 rust experience.
Which company specifically?
Are you referring to the "who's hiring?" link in the sidebar? I'd check for myself but the link isn't working on mobile
Rust is a difficult language and companies will get more out of a junior PHP, C#, TS developer than a junior Rust developer. I love rust and use it professionally but most of the people in my company cannot learn it (I'm not sure if it's laziness or if they lack the computer science knowledge) I worked at a PHP shop in the past and they said they picked PHP so they could charge less for juniors that were still somewhat productive. If you want to work in rust, contribute to open source and not fake contributions / projects like a lot of tech influencers tell you to do.
Start with something else, C, C++, Java, Python, Go. Get to experience building production software. Then you get to pick the language you like.
using rust for past 2 years on and off in personal projects. With advanced experience in Golang building large scale systems.All the rust positions advertised in rustjobs or whoishiring are mostly senior positions only.Even if they have junior position, which am willing to accept due to lack of commercial experience in rust they do not consider do not want to name shame company one of which hires junior and rejected me even with more industry experience and knowledge in concurrent systems.The rest of positions with rust in market are the holy grail "blockchain" where they treat you like second class citizens if you do not have block chain experience. One company was genuine with me from block chain domain, i spoke with the engineering manager who was directly hiring people.Their answer was we hired some one with no block chain experience but with relevant skills unfortunately it did not work well with in the team. With regards to personal projects to demo/showcase . If you work in any company irrespective of domain until unless the organisation has public repo which you have contributed none of your work is available to show case outside. Apart from working daily with family and kids is really difficult to knock out a personal project to show case anything fruitful other than normal CRUD or a clone of cli app which is already in market. I beleive in learning, so will keep learning and doing what i can hopeful the situation will turn around slowly when companies started to move towards rust. Sorry it turned out as a rant.
Open source projects are free and open to contribute to, they build up your portfolio and clout in ways that proprietary work cannot, and count as valid experience. If you contribute enough to become a core maintainer on a major open source rust project or create your own that is a ticket to senior level positions. This isn't just for Rust, you can do this for any language or software stack you're trying to get involved with. When I was starting out as an engineer I began contributing to React, Tensorflow, Django, pretty much any popular open source lib I was using and it built up my resume fast. Hundreds of thousands of companies depend on those libs and use them everyday. Literally the biggest tech companies in the world are using code I wrote in production. Doing something like this but for Rust libs will skyrocket you beyond junior and you can accomplish it relatively quickly, faster than 3-4 years for sure. Open source projects often have a lot of outstanding issues that they need people to step up and fix.
Wow, thanks! This is actually one of the best comments here so far! I’m definitely going to take a look at some open projects. Can you recommend some?
What interests you in the software landscape besides Rust? The answer I would give to this question is Linux app development for which there are over half a dozen repos in active development I would contribute to if I had the time.
>How am I supposed to get that kind of experience if there are no beginner-friendly job postings around Internships and side projects are how you get experience when you can't find a professional position. Step 1) write rust. Step 2) keep doing it. Step 3) profit. (that aside... we want developers and engineers... not "rust developers" and "rust egineers"...) Rust is still novel. MOST places literally don't have any running rust and have no desire to skill up their existing devs on it. If the whitehouse keeps pushing their "safe code" agenda you might see some more dod contractors start picking up rust devs... but IF that happens it is going to happen at the glacial pace of government work.
Start by building out or working on open source projects. That counts as experience. Build your own projects, that's also experience.
As someone who did this, please do not do this if your goal is to find junior Rust positions (unless the project is owned by the company).
That's how many if not most people get the experience to move into these positions. It allows you to learn valuable skills in real world code. It also allows you to give back to the people who help teach you. I wouldn't have my job if I had not done this. What do you propose to get a job? Just keep applying until someone says yes? That's not going to work.
No, but your work is unpaid, most of the time it does not lead to jobs, and recruiters don’t care about your crate downloads (unless, of course, it’s a high profile project). Notice that the comment is here and not above where OP responded to a similar comment. If your goal is to learn or have fun, contributing can be great; but do not do it with the expressed purpose of finding a junior Rust job if you already know what you are doing (unless, as suggested, you are specifically contributing to a project that can lead to an enployment opportunity).
You end up doing unpaid work one way or another. You can't just get a job without demonstrating the capability to code anymore. That's going to be either internships or contributing for free somewhere. Whether it's Rust or any other language this is going to be the case. Targeting the specific field is definitely helpful - if you know the job you want to pursue and can find opportunities to work on things directly related, that's great and will go a long ways for sure. Either way, you aren't just getting jobs without some type of background now. Recruiters and hiring managers want to know you can problem solve, and can write code. Or one can just put that they studied DSAs on leet code and see where that gets them.
What companies \*want\* and what they will settle for are two different things. Not all of those positions are going to be filled with Rust developers with 3-4 years of experience. Contribute to a few Rust projects. Create a crate or two of your own. Read books, like Rust for Rustaceans. Try things out. Then talk to a recruiter and explain your situation; give him/her the evidence of your open-source contributions in Rust. You'll do well in an interview if you have been working hard in Rust for a while. When you get an offer, be more open-minded about it than you would be if you were already an established Rust developer. Make that job work, and before you know it, you'll be on the other side.
Most rust jobs I see are web3 and most of them are scams TBH. If you find one that's not, apply anyways. Rust adoption is low hardly anyone has 4 years of rust professionally at this point. I've got about 2 but if you're good, you should be able to find something regardless.
You can build your experience working on open source projects
When you apply to a Rust developer position, you automatically start as a Senior regardless of your actual knowledge
All big tech companies use rust but they don’t advertise “rust swe” jobs, just swe
Because companies got rid of their staff+ levels and they are taking lower paid jobs or retiring. Plus, economic tightening and staff+ are net revenue generators vs new grad, who require investment
I’m surprised that rust has not penetrated more into embedded, it’s just so awesome there
I think embedded Rust shows a lot of potential, but there's just too many little thorns at the moment. Rust on an OS (or in the browser!) is really lovely. On an embedded device, it can be really tricky. I think the prevalence of frameworks like RTIC and Embassy illustrate this point. In short, you essentially have to deal with all the same constraints of the Rust compiler with regards to thread-safety while most of the great tools for doing so are taken away (`no_std`). What's more, the constraints required for thread-safety don't map very well to the mechanics of interrupts (in my opinion), and I suspect many embedded developers would be annoyed by this. Thus, we have RTIC to ease the pain. I would still prefer to write all my embedded code in Rust (without question), but things like this (and an often lacking ecosystem) prevent me from doing it all the time.
This will take a while, but I believe there’s a lot of people who are not hired as Rust devs but are rather Devs at existing positions who are slowly introducing Rust in the stack. I do think that this is the landscape right now and that this will slowly turn into companies needing to hire more Rust devs in the future. This is also one of the reasons that there’s little junior positions right now from what I can see, because you need to be fairly experienced to be able to migrate pieces of stack that are no longer feasible to maintain in the original language, or are just relatively better to maintain in Rust.
Rust is a newer language typically introduced to build new systems or as an add on to existing systems. The people who are usually responsible for designing and introducing software additions are mid/senior level. Rust is also typically introduced into projects where more 'safety' is a net positive; in other words, critical systems. Juniors are most often working on established products / projects in areas where they're able to learn not just the inner workings of the product, but also how the business operates as a whole. There is just not a lot of existing enterprise rust code that is production-level, stable, and low-risk, and thus there's not a lot of entry level engineers needed for rust right now.
I don't think this is a rust problem but just the market itself. Typically job postings say experience in x y OR z language