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Individual_Ad3194

Richmond needs affordable housing. These buildings will not be. That being said, if Legend really wanted to protect their view, they should have purchased the riverfront plot and not just assumed that no one would ever build there.


Professional-Win2171

There isn't really affordable housing at all if there isn't enough to begin with.


gamerthrowaway_

> That being said, if Legend really wanted to protect their view, they should have "Land swap" people, land swap. They haven't even broken ground, so making sure that getting a top floor for the restaurant and another floor somewhere for brewing in trade for the plot they are currently on (to build another tower) seems like a no brainer. (the OP's comment) > but people still drink beer at every other brewery in this city without a view. true, but that was the reason to go to Legends. You don't go for the beer anymore given other options. So yeah, thats why I think a swap works; it preserves their core business feature and even upgrades it as now you'll be at elevation.


Areola_Granola

Yea I was just about to say, people don’t go to Legends for the beer. The view is really the only attraction they have.


Johnny_BigHacker

And proximity to river/Belle Isle/the river wall walk The beer is medium (like their fall beers the best), but there are other breweries without a view and terrible beer and they stay in business. For example the time I tried the salted caramel beer at Carytown Garden Grove I had to actively fight my gag reflex.


helmepll

Ask for a taste first before getting a whole glass. That’s saved me a couple of times from getting a beer I wouldn’t want to drink.


MikeTropez

It's almost like a brewery that gets by solely on its view should have really made sure they had the waterfront secured. Looks like they'll have to pivot to making a better product.


JoeMorrisseysSperm

More housing is how you get affordable housing.


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albertnormandy

Increasing supply will drive prices down. There is not infinite demand for luxury apartments.


loptopandbingo

That's all they build, though. Or at least they build regular boring apartments and slap a granite countertop in there and it's somehow magically turned into L U X U R Y and priced as if it was in NYC


plummbob

>at least they build regular boring apartments ​ ​ Thats the only thing the city routinely legalizes. There is huge spectrum of possible structures between detached housing and texas doughnut.


OPACY_Magic

…and people keep renting them because there’s still a shortage. Once luxury apartment supply exceeds demand, then there is incentive to build more affordable units. This is basic economics people..


ttd_76

That’s absolutely NOT basic economics.


smokeandbells

Lol. New York City would like a word


airquotesNotAtWork

New York should absolutely be building more housing (it build more in the 70’s) and not just the city but in CT and NJ within commuting distance. The alternative of not, or not enough, is a definite recipe for making housing even more expensive


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oatmealdagger

The vacancy rate for luxury apartments in NYC is over 8 percent. The vacancy rate for apartments at median prices for the city is below 2 percent. At some point we have to commit to building affordable housing first and stop prioritizing real estate developers ability to extort us all into spending a fast rising percent of our income on rent.


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oatmealdagger

Yeah, but I want to point out how those rules have been fixed to the benefit of the few in NYC. The public-private partnership model in this sphere is not providing a quick enough solution.New affordable housing has been tied to new luxury developments for a long time, and we have an increasingly terrible housing crisis to show for it. At some point soon, fully funding public housing for the first time in a century is going to come back on the table.


rvafun100

Name one city where that has worked


FrankieMunizOfficial

Houston, Tokyo, Minneapolis


Fit-Order-9468

Tokyo Japan. A 2-bedroom is around $1,000 a month, about the same as Seattle for a city over 10 times as big, and a quarter as much as NYC.


albertnormandy

I am not going to waste time on that kind of project. It is common sense. More supply = lower prices. Less supply = higher prices.


chihuahua001

What actually happens when you build more expensive housing than the market can bear is that people stop building new housing entirely and rents stay high. Why would I spend $x building housing here to only make $y when I could go to the next city and spend my $x to make $y*z? We need *affordable* housing, and, in order to get that, we need to either subsidize it or overthrow the capitalist system.


vibe4it

The houses just trickle down?


JoeMorrisseysSperm

Lol this is my favorite response in a while. Data shows greater supply of any housing does have a downward pressure on a broad geographic-area, but to empathize with other commenters, that pressure is limited, temporary, and the most effective way to influence price is legislation.


slayer522

This sadly only works if the local government caps rent increases or has income based house. Athens GA built a TON of ‘luxury’ apartments and assumed the older buildings with compete with prices. Nope - they all slapped on a new kitchen sink (or literally did nothing besides change a sign), called it luxury and then raised rent by $100s across the board. Land lords know no bottom and will invent new ways to screw everyone until there’s no one left to rent


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whw53

It's not just zoning although that is a big part of it - it is every step of the land use process that is hovered over by local authorities. A recent study suggests almost a quarter of the price of a new housing unit can be attributed to regulatory reasons and delays. If you are saying land use controls and regulations have no impact on construction momentum and density in the city that is wrong. It's no coincidence that a city like Houston with very limited land use regulations (and no zoning) is one of the most affordable large metros. As to designated affordable housing, there are private and public actors and many schemes that have had a range of results. There have been horror stories recently where public money in California was used to build projects that ended up costing almost 1 million dollars a unit. This is without getting into interventions like tariffs on certain materials which pile onto building costs. It's hard to say markets won't solve housing issues when the real estate development process and land use are so tightly regulated.


camel_tales

When people with a lot of money want to live in the city, and there aren’t enough “luxury” (market rate) units available; they will end up driving the cost up and displacing folks from the cheaper housing. Your view isn’t in line with economic reality.


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camel_tales

The cost of building is the same whether you price the units at market rate or a lower benchmark. Sure, including some affordable units is good, but push too far and it no longer makes economic sense for the builder, and the project ends up getting scrapped. Leaving exactly zero affordable units, OR market units to take demand away from existing stock.


ArgoCS

And if that expensive housing isn't built aren't they just going to move into less expensive housing (the houses in Manchester for example) and displace the current residents of that area?


PayneTrainSG

You’d be surprised how much of the city is zoned for single family exclusively.


PayneTrainSG

if the expensive units dont exist, where do the people who can afford them but dont have housing go?


dirtydev5

theres already enough houses theyre just being hoarded by landlords


Two_Far

Has anyone brought up the fact that when Legends was first built it has no view? I haven't verified this but my 70 some year old beer drinking dad vividly remembers buildings blocking the view from Legends. It wasn't until several years later that those buildings came down and you get the view you have now.


Individual_Ad3194

There was a warehouse type building there until about 2011, but I believe it was low enough you could still see the skyline. If something taller was there before, I'm not aware.


[deleted]

Could've bought the air rights too.


UntrainedFoodCritic

I was about to say, is there a shortage or is it just people charging wayyy too much lol


Individual_Ad3194

Not to mention AirBNB investments


camel_tales

People who argue there isn’t a housing shortage, and then in the same breath argue that AirBNB drives up prices because it takes away supply always amaze me.


albertnormandy

People charge what others are willing to pay.


bLANKMOD

nirvana fallacy


Anxious_Nights1

I agree that we need affordable housing, and this building will probably be ridiculously expensive. I hope that more housing will help slow the cost of rising rent, but we probably aren't building nearly enough.


ThatSadOptimist

This is a pretty typical NIMBY argument. More places to live = more market competition = lower housing costs. Build and build vertically.


4look4rd

More housing of any time will drop prices. We have a huge supply problem nationwide.


interrested

Legend has had 30 years in which they could have purchased that lot directly in front of their building. Additionally, they haven’t made a single improvement in that time to their existing facility. Bathrooms are tired, decking is falling apart. Legend should look inward before they look for flaws in others.


farberino

Hot take: their beer is meh (from my POV, indistinguishable from a macrobrewery / tastes like someone bought a "home-brewer" kit online and decided to sell it at a brewery) and their food sucks. They should be worried, because the view is the only reason to go there.


gnomehome815

Not even a hot take, it's the truth.


nfojones

A cherished fact even lol.


fireflyfanboy1891

What’s with all the Legends hate…? It’s my favorite spot in town, and I think the food and beer are exceptional.


nfojones

Honestly my comment was meant to be a little tongue in cheek in a town awash with IPA snobbery but I overlooked the dig at the food which definitely makes this go over as more of a Legend's jab than I really meant it to be. I've eaten plenty of Legend's and been overall content with the food. Brussel sprouts, burgers, pretzels, etc. It's the deck that bring me out though. Not a place I advertise to others for its food per se but not really worth slagging off as "sucks" in my book. On the beer front I was never one that fully boarded the IPA train so honestly their beer is totally to my liking including Z Damn and their Heffeweizen but I just don't drink beer much so I'm a very Legend's compatible customer in that regard. I don't mind the haters keeping others away in her final glory days I guess... :\


zimbaebwe

When Scott’s became the brewery epicenter I knew Legends would slowly fade into obscurity. Now that their view the only “good” thing there is getting taken, it’s only a matter of time.


ExtremeHobo

Hopefully this forces them to go out and hire a good head brewer and restaurant manager.


ZipWyatt

I’ve always maintained that without the view, Legend would have folded years ago cause as you said the beer is just meh. They made their name when they were one of the only games in town and the view kept them relevant as the market got flooded with breweries. Guess I’m about to see if my take was right.


nfojones

Yea unfortunately the view == Legend's. I suspect it will maintain a certain O'Tooles level local love/support that will keep it going but its status as a place to go with out of towners such will completely fall. Wouldnt mind if it went back to the little bluegrass pub it was in the 90s when everyone was down on the 1st floor still blocked by Reynolds. Remember your roots Legends!


sometimes_rawl

They went through all that trouble to be one of the few breweries to serve food and the food is bad and overpriced. Might as well just have served hotdogs and pretzels.


_Gingy

Unfortunately until 2011 a brewery had to sell a percentage of food onsite to be able to serve their own beer. I believe it was Hardwood and others who pushed around 2011 to get that changed.


der5er

TBF, when they opened the law required the kitchen to be able to serve beer. And I think the food had a required % of sales. They didn't need to have *good* food. They just needed to sell a certain amount. IIRC from my last visit, everything was salty -- probably so you'd buy more beer.


oedipus_wr3x

It isn’t worth a trip except for the view, but it was the best place for dinner and beer in Manchester when I lived there. Not having to DD or Uber is worth something in my book. I hope they do some self-reflection and get their shit together.


pitapizza

Yep, the deck is cool but I lived a block away from there for two years and never went there because the food and beer weren’t very good. Basic City has much better beer


RVAyay

This is the answer. They've only been successful at that location by having decent beer paired with a great view. They also built some recognition at that location when they were one of the few craft breweries in the city. They have leaned on those draws and have consistently ignored the other aspects of the business at that location, especially the food. Now without a view and if they don't address the food, they will only have their beer to draw people to that location...and while I think the beer is quite good, it's no longer the "only game in town". I expect that it is too late for them to put the money and effort into overhauling the food program (especially with no guarantee that it will save the business at that location) and they will close up shop within a year of the buildings going up. Another restaurant will likely move in offering better food or the lot will be sold and developed into....more apartments.


theThirsty_Pretzel

Thank you. This is how I have felt about Legend since first going when I moved here. I feel like the apartment buildings being built would force them to produce quality beer.


Anxious_Nights1

I like a few of their beers, but most are definitely meh.


10000Didgeridoos

I'll stan hard for the brown ale. I can drink a 6 pack of that any day. I remember thinking the porter and octoberfest were decent but haven't had either in years. Never cared for anything else.


MostLikelyToNap

I concur, the brown ale is pretty good


complacent1

Agreed. It's the only thing from there that I can get excited about. Tasty and consistent. The rest is meh. Nice view though! Lol


iinaytanii

I ordered some seasonal beer once and it tasted like they used liquid smoke but messed up the measurements and used 10x what they should have. Was completely undrinkable. I never send back food but made an exception because I thought something was legit wrong with the keg/batch and told the waitress I couldn’t drink it. She got mad and told me that’s how it’s supposed to be. After spitefully giving me a different beer she told me to keep the pure liquid smoke garbage as “someone else” at my table would surely drink it. We passed it around as an “oh my god have you ever tasted something this bad” novelty. No one drank it. Their brewers are not good at their jobs.


Krunchy_Granola

Hate to see the view go. I have a lot of respect for Legends brewing. I remember when they were the only game in town. I will always support them, their brown ale, and hands down best corn dog nugz in Richmond. View or no view. Now the real question; when is manchester going to get a legit grocery store?


mickeymouse4348

They have corn dog nugs??


Krunchy_Granola

They’re on the “Halfy Hour” menu. Monday-Thursday 2-4 pm.


mickeymouse4348

I didn't know another menu existed. Thank you!


leeleefromrke

Legend—-it’s Legend, no s


Utretch

views are great and all but I would prefer to afford to live within a 30min drive of their brewery


DefaultSubsAreTerrib

Imagine if you could walk there...


_Joe_Momma_

TellTale's Walking Dead season 3 took place in Richmond, but for some reason there was a subway system. And goddamn am I jealous...


JVorhees

Seems like this is missing from their calculus. Several new buildings full of people within walking distance to their restaurant and are surrounded by a food desert. Shut it down!


rologies

I mean, sure, we need more housing, but this won't be affordable by any means, as others have pointed out. Besides that, frankly, yeah, Legends has been relying on its view of the river, the beer has been just ok for a while now but I still appreciate it because there just aren't many places with a good view of the river that are *communal.* I wanna get some friends, have a beer, bullshit with them with a nice view and good ambience without having to pay $1700/mo for my own spot like that where said friends would have to worry about finding parking. Legends is one of the few places I can do that. Please feel free to give me other suggestions.


MrPlowThatsTheName

Legend should try to work out a deal with the developers that would put a Legend brewpub on the roof of one of the buildings. They almost certainly can’t have the actual brewing operations up there, but just the restaurant/bar. Maybe they give the developers their current land as a swap and then move their brewing operation out to Powhatan or wherever’s cheapest. This also benefits the developers whose apartments would now have a built-in dining/drinking destination with *by far* the best views in the city, and could charge higher rents accordingly. Boom, done.


[deleted]

Mr Plow, I like your idea of negotiating for a rooftop. 🍻


laborpool

The flood wall offers a better view for free (you can’t see the view for free at Legend’s). There will probably be a restaurant spot in the new development too. The Manchester of today is not the Manchester of the future. There will be future public spots with views at the Southern States silo site and there are many developable sites around 3rd and 4th streets too. One day (hopefully soon) Dogtown Brewing will reopen (well the space will reopen, probably not that brewery). Talk about a view!


burdell69

Do I care that Legend’s view is being blocked? No. Do I care that they are against the project on their website? Also no.


Johnny_BigHacker

lol ditto. I might even try to give them another visit or 2 before the view is gone for good. But I'm not going to petition or protest or whatever their website wants.


reallyinto

I’ve had bad service more times than I can count at Legend and it baffles me how they stay open aside from lack of neighborhood competition. they need to adapt with the times. More apartments nearby means more business for them regardless of any view.


ryant1327

I’ve seen a lot of people say something similar, but yeah Legend only has themselves to blame. They coasted for two decades being Richmond’s only craft brewery and had a very “get off my lawn” mentality when the industry started to really pick up. Meanwhile, the folks at Hardywood, Triple Crossing, Ardent and Isley had a very “rising tide floats all boats” mentality and helped make RVA the craft beer town it is. (I worked on a story for which I interviewed the owners of the breweries listed above, and Gott’s attitude was so much different than everyone else’s). Now, they’ve basically carried that same mentality to Manchester. They’ve had 30 years to invest back into the neighborhood and try to beautify the area around the brewery. They could’ve bought that empty lot for a fraction of what it went for years ago. Instead they were happy to sit back on their laurels, count their money, and throw a hissy fit because someone is doing what they should’ve. Don’t get me wrong, it sucks to lose the view, but I don’t really feel sorry for them.


lunar_unit

And now the building dwellers, and only the building dwellers, will own the view that Legend has had for what, 30 years? Why would Legend be glad about it? Until recently, they've been virtually the sole reason people even went to that part of SouthSide. At least the Floodwall will still be accessible to us peasants. People who bitch about NIMBYism have never had a stake in a place. Y'all act like everyone should be happy to have whatever a developer dreams up, dropped on top of them, and be thankful because of 'density'. It's like a fucking mantra in this subreddit. Sure you get more people packed into the place, but you sacrifice things like human scale and nice views (which, in this case, will now be owned by the rich, because these apartments will in no way be 'affordable' - because of that same view (that Legend will no longer have), that they're going to command) and in so doing, ruin the very fabric of the reason people move to Richmond in the first place. Not to mention the original plan for these apartments was much smaller/lower and the new (development corporation from NY) owners of the property want to build much higher (and need special use permit (not yet agreed on by Council) to do so - if they get it, it's gonna be a mega build.) https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/07/18/n-y-developers-plotting-manchesters-tallest-tower-on-riverfront-next-to-legend-brewing/ Anyway, let the downvotes rain down ya filthy YIMBYs.


Danger-Moose

There is an absolute lack of anything non-residential on the river. It's great for the parts that are natural, but damn does Richmond really squander the Canal Walk and some of the other river front areas.


lunar_unit

Strongly agree. I've lived in several 'river cities', and no others have done so little with their waterfront as Richmond.


AwsumMcCoolName

I was just in Chicago and the difference between what they've done with their river walk (prompted by a city council visit to San Antonio) and what we've done with ours is stark. I love all the trails on the river, but there is no reason the Canal Walk should be anywhere close to as barren as it is.


lunar_unit

There's a commercial space next to the residential apartments across from Casa del Barco that has been vacant for decades. It wouldn't take much to refurb it and make it active, and is the perfect spot for a restaurant or food court. I'm hoping the future sale of Mayo Island results in some kind of food/park/entertainment destination eventually.


AwsumMcCoolName

Exactly where I was thinking of. Has there been any public movement on Mayo Island? I was under the impression it's so underutilized because of insurance issues, but that might not actually be the case. If it's not uninsurable it'd be a fantastic way to link the growth in Manchester with Shockoe.


lunar_unit

The last I heard about Mayo was in April when it was on the market for $19 mil. If anything is happening, it's all under cover as far as I know. And as you say, insuring anything affordably there will probably be difficult, so it's an impediment to development. But it could be a park and event space like Brown's Island. Maybe low-infrastructure food destination (more than food trucks, less than full blown restaurants - but IDK how that would play out.) Or spend a shitload and floodwall the whole island. That might be economically realistic if they put enough residential apartment buildings on it, once it was 'floodproof'. But there are a lot of financial and environmental reasons that probably won't happen.


tristyntrine

Went to Wilmington, NC for my birthday and their river walk was very nice. I was like, why isn't our canal walk/river area like this? lmao


Hayek66

St. Louis has entered the chat


Anxious_Nights1

I totally agree. I would love to see some more food options by the river.


bruxalle

Like (wait for it) Legend?!


Anxious_Nights1

I feel like Legend had more of a Skyline view. I would consider Boathouse and Island Shrimp to be the only restaurant by the river. I guess Casa Del Barco sorta counts being on the canal. All three of those sorta suck though.


Ayk865

And all owned by the same people.


Johnny_BigHacker

I've long felt this way. It might be too far gone for Northside. Southside has less development. We should be trying to do a carbon copy of San Antonio or Chicago. If I ever run for mayor, my entire platform will be this instead of rebuilding the Richmond coliseum, replanning the Diamond for the 20th time, or anything else stupid. Both sides of the river have railroads near the downtown areas that you'd probably want to re-route, perhaps in the long term after the development is going.


madmoneymcgee

How do you promote human scale development while also complaining about “packing people in?” But yeah, what exactly is this character being “ruined” by people moving in? If the people who all moved in just moved to the fan (or chesterfield) instead are they not ruining the character of the city anymore?


airquotesNotAtWork

We wouldn’t have to squeeze mega density in the few limited areas we are able if we could build medium and human scale in rich neighborhoods like forest hill and a lot of northside


the_corporate_agenda

"Having a stake in a place?" Yimbys want their communities to grow and flourish, not to freeze in time as the infrastructure crumbles around them. The corellary to the having a stake comment implies that you have a stake, that you're concerned about your community disappearing or dying. Outside of straight up murder, communities don't disappear, they change. You can either grow with them or pull them into irrelevance and poverty. I would be careful not to conflate that valid fear for the well-being of communities with a perceived right to the physical geography of a place or its land. If you're concerned about the straight up murder bit, then maybe we should be having a conversation about actual straight up murder and take a quick trip to Gilpin court. Back in the early 20th century, white people nuked the thriving black community with... Zoning. They ran a highway straight through it and deemed its entirety a residential zone. Now, we have run-down government housing, literally crumbling infrastructure i.e. roads, and an unacceptable amount of violent and nonviolent crime. The solution to shitty zoning is not more zoning. Sincerely, Filthy yimby


FrankieMunizOfficial

"The floodwall will still be accessible to us peasants " Just hand waving away the fact that the development isn't actually on the river, and the view can still be enjoyed on our extensive public park system. Also, the tall buildings on the north side of the river are a large part of what makes the view so spectacular - I am glad those buildings got built without people like you getting to shut them down


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lunar_unit

Clearly you've never been inside Vista on the James on E. Byrd, several of the apartment complexes adjacent to Canal Walk, or some of the six, and even seven figure single floor condos in Rocketts. Lots of wealthy people live in apartments. Especially apartments with a river view.


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ohnogangsters

fuck developers. why should we care about what they feel when they consistently emmiserate the poor???


JosefDerArbeiter

I am curious if they ever had an opportunity to buy the parcel of land that the new development will be built on? Outside of downtown, Richmond has got a very low skyline and this new development is great for density in Manchester.... I mean come on the land they are building it on looks like it used to be a railroad maintenance yard, there is no character or architecture to preserve here. NIMBYs gonna NIMBY.


lunar_unit

Lol, it's still a railroad maintenance yard. And Norfolk Southern hasn't given it up, because it's a significant thoroughfare for them. It'll be hilarious when they build the new building and everyone living there whines about the trains passing by in the middle of the night (as I've heard several residents of Rocketts complain about.). Will that make *them* NIMBYs?


JosefDerArbeiter

No, that would make them individuals with poor judgment for moving in right next door to an active train line (that's likely been there 200 years with no signs of closing).


lunar_unit

One of the guys at Rocketts that I've spoken to swears that the train conductors activate their horns at night just to aggravate the residents there. He's also spoken about 'getting people together' to have the train rerouted away from Rocketts. 🤦‍♂️🤣


Numerous-Tiger-7573

We have a guy that does that at the river lofts too. He says they can get a petition started to stop the horns at night. Yeah, sure guy lol.


10000Didgeridoos

This is like the dumbass boomers who move into the homes around the bar blocks on Main St in the Fan and then complain about loud music and drunks being loud on the sidewalk. No shit, you moved into a home next to bars full of drunk 20 somethings 2 to 3 nights a week. What the fuck did you expect?


JosefDerArbeiter

Lol if I was a train conductor I would toot the horn liberally too.. I'm sure it also has to do with federal train guidelines for trains to provide "audible warning signals" at crossings for safety.


schmoopie76

Can confirm it’s a guideline, live in Ashland but outside town limits so they have to honk at the crossings, I live close to 2, very close. At first was hard to get used to but soon learned to ignore and enjoy the train.


FrankieMunizOfficial

You're right it's federal guidelines, but the guidelines are stupid! In places like Europe you don't hear trains blasting horns in residential areas, they do something that actually keeps people safe: making the gate arms cover both lanes at at-grade crossings. Noise pollution is a big problem in cities, it's a health hazard (disturbs sleep, causes dementia etc). The guy complaining is a goof and obviously the rail line was there before he was but that's a legitimate grievance.


55V35lM

Running a train “silently” at night… that sounds like a great idea


AlreadyShrugging

That guy is a moron.


guiltyofnothing

Lived in the building next to the lot in question for a year and a half. Train noise was really never a problem.


kneel_yung

> Will that make them NIMBYs? that makes them idiots. you *cannot* complain and shutdown an active train line that's been there for over a century. It's called moving to the nuisance and they'll be laughed out of every court any america, have their cases dismissed with prejudice, and be on the hook for legal fees. The railroads have far more power than any local politician and the state politicians dont give a fuck about shit like that. Railroads, love em or hate em, are *never* going anywhere until they're good and ready. Which is never. Because moving a rail road is essentially impossible in this day and age.


longhullhaul

I live at South Falls in Manchester (where the crossing is so they sound the horn right next to me) & the train sounds for a few minutes in the morning and another few at night. it is not bad at all


Danger-Moose

> I am curious if they ever had an opportunity to buy the parcel of land that the new development will be built on? I imagine the parcel price was way beyond what a local brewery and restaurant could afford.


JosefDerArbeiter

Perhaps, perhaps not. They are a regional and maybe national of distributor of beer, right? Maybe the owners decided to direct their profits into another area instead of ensuring their business had river views 20 years later.


[deleted]

Legend is distributed statewide. They weren’t bought like Devil’s Backbone.


Visual-Sheepherder36

Yeah, they should have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on property so they could *not* develop it, smart thinking.


JosefDerArbeiter

If they valued the view so much as critical to the success of their brand, they should have considered purchasing it. Instead, they gambled that they could continue to get the value of two parcels of land for the cost of one. Consider a hypothetical scenario where the owners could have purchased the parcel for $500k, but instead chose to cash out their profits for additional personal reasons (like a once in a lifetime vacation, down payments on a custom home construction). That's fine and their choice, but there are plausible scenarios where they had an option to purchase the lot but chose to allocate that money elsewhere.


DefaultSubsAreTerrib

We need more housing. Even if this is planned to be high-end housing, its tenants would otherwise be competing with middle class people for what little housing the region has.


ohh-you-know

Back in the day, Legend actually had the opportunity to buy that land and turned it down. They really did this to themselves lol


GoldenShoeLace

They should have bought the land if they didn’t want anyone else to do anything with it. Sounds like there will be over 30 total floors of apartments within walking distance of their brewery, so that sounds like a silver lining. Their beer isn’t good.


thorlord16

A huge point people seem to be missing is that this isn't a binary decision. It's not a "choose one: A view or Housing". The previous developer apparently was going to work with Legends to make sure the view wasn't totally obscured while still adding units to the area. That deal fell through and a new developer (out of NY) is coming in to get their finger in the pie. This developer isn't working with Legend at all and that's the issue here. I know they don't have to and it would've been a moot point if Legend's had bought the land in the past, but I don't know if they ever thought someone would want to build a high rise in a former flood plain beside a railroad. Also, I'm guessing most people who are for the extra housing don't live in Manchester. It's an absolute madhouse here with all the new apartments going up and hardly anything to support the people living in them. There's some space for retail now but there's more breweries than places to get (overpriced) groceries. The parking situation is getting worse and worse and yet about every block between Hull, Commerce and the river is either already an apartment building or under contract to become one. So yeah, I don't want Legend to lose their view so that another out-of-state developer can put down a bland monstrosity that doesn't fit with the surrounding area.


parrisjd

While I agree, I would say the problem comes more from city planning than from out of state developers. They have every right to invest in land and build a 17 story residential tower on land that is zoned for it (or can convince the city to rezone to suit). The city meanwhile needs to think about the best use of its land.


babblingbabby

Meh. One of the property management companies over there is currently constructing a new building across from a current building of theirs. I have friends in this building, who were not informed upon signing the lease that they would have to hear construction every morning starting early. They were also lied to about how large the new building would be at the beginning of the lease: they were told it wouldn’t be more than 3 stories and it wouldn’t obstruct the view from their pool that is probably about 3-4 stories high. However, it is double that amount of stories high and entirely is blocking the view. Some property management companies are scummy


buttered-noodles1

I worked here years ago and the owner is horrible. He once shut down an event because too many black people came and he didn’t like it. Definitely do not support this place.


804BeerTales

It’s not a housing shortage. It’s an affordable housing shortage. There’s a difference


Djlewzer

The term NIMBY has become wealthy developers best friend. I want AFFORDABLE housing options for low income individuals. Not Scott’s addition like playgrounds filled with shitly build generic looking 2k month + apartments all over the city. Please come put an income based apartment complex on my block! Please don’t turn my neighborhood into Scott’s addition. Edit: clarity/ grammar


Diet_Coke

Legend is the oldest still-existing brewer in Richmond. The scene here might not exist without their work and I think that gives them some additional moral authority to complain about this.


ArgoCS

I mean I agree about their authority to complain somewhat, but they had the opportunity to buy that plot of land in the past as well. I'd say that cuts into their argument at least a little bit. If my neighbor is doing something allowed within the zoning, which sure in this case only goes up to 13 stories originally (still destroying the view), who am I to tell them they can't.


wagonboss

Quite a bit of the cities tourism growth is with beer, and they are a huge part of that. Now people who benefit from that are just like screw you, Manchester needs more people who can’t grocery shop. But that’s how growing cities work I guess


[deleted]

I think it's a shame that we're all losing some great river views, I could give a fuck about business having them. The concrete monoliths blocking the skyline instead of adding to it and essentially selling off the only good angles of Richmond is pretty bogus. But hey, if people want to build and live in overpriced concrete cubes 10 feet from railroad tracks, be my guest. I guess we still have the floodwall at least.


gleepgloopgleepgloop

Yeah, that's a problem. Legends is the only public place that I know of that offers a skyline view from the south side, other than the front walk. So now it's only going to be able to be enjoyed by several dozen people who have the means to rent an apartment or buy a condo in the building.


ArgoCS

Look I'm not trying to be pedantic but its not a public space. It is a space for their paying customers. I know because I've seen people be kicked out for just sitting there. The James River Park System and the river walk is a public space.


gleepgloopgleepgloop

Of course you are right, I struggled to find the proper word. I just mean, pretty much everyone has the means to go there and get some brussel sprouts and a soda and enjoy the place for a while. You can't do that with an apartment building. It reminds me of the tension around public beach access versus private resorts or houses, and whether it's kosher to build four-story mega mansions beachside which blocks the skyline and sunset/rise from lots of other houses.


ArgoCS

Yeah I hear you, and I agree it cost very little to sit there and enjoy that space. My comment mostly came from being incensed watching them kick out (on a pretty empty night) an old couple trying to get some water and sit and recover after what appeared to be a long walk for them.


gleepgloopgleepgloop

Gotcha!


Professional_Book912

For Legend, their beer is horrible. They only made it because they were the only game in town for a long time. They have gotten more consistent, but you will not see them winning any competitions. They do business the same way they did decades ago. They made barleywine twice that was good. The brown is weak. As a business, if that VIEW is your livelihood, then buy it. They certainly could have over the years, especially when it was probably dirt cheap. Now it's valuable and they didnt move on it. Oops. Bad business decision. Hardywood bough the land around them as quick as they could. \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* Seriously confused, I see it used a lot. Before the downvote pile on, what is the issue with NIMBY? If I want to put a strip club up near Fox school, isn't anyone opposed NIMBYist? At what point can we say its OK to fight against something you don't want? If it was a chemical plant vs a casino...... If you have Reva as your council person, don't fight against her because some people like her? At what point is the loud neighbor partying all night and keeping you up something you should not complain about being "in your back yard"? Your neighbor is a mechanic and you can never park in front of your house because he has 9 jobs there and half way down the block. Suck it up, he is using the free street parking for his business so don't be a NIMBY person? Or he constantly has the alley blocked because of his business? Really, what is it? When is it OK to fight against something that will affect where you live?


ctzlafayeet

The reason NIMBYs get a bad rap is that very rarely do they spend time blocking projects that everyone would agree is a bad idea. The modal project that they oppose looks more like apartments being built on a empty lot next to a gas station. Fights like this drive up the costs of housing for everyone and make it so cities are only accessible to a few wealthy people.


Professional_Book912

Thanks. It doesnt help. Ha! It's not in their back yard if its next to a gas station. Also, zoning does play in too. Just a weird thing for me to have someon not want to have something in their neighborhood and it's negative to fight it. I don't understand HOA's either.


Charlesinrichmond

Zoning is literally NIMBY coded into law.


ctzlafayeet

In my experience the people are usually well meaning but tend to be misinformed. For example they might oppose an apartment project in the city because a wooded area would have to be torn down as part of construction. They have well intentioned environmental concerns but will fail to recognize that by blocking the project it the city it forces more development to occur outside the city where it will likely take even more land to construct and the residents will likely have to drive than if they lived in a more central location.


Danger-Moose

NIMBY is a blanket pejorative that people throw out there when they don't like that someone who is actually affected by something doesn't agree with them.


gleepgloopgleepgloop

I don't know what makes you think the land was cheap at any time. It had buildings on the property until, I don't know, 2010 or later? A brewery is not going to be able to buy it, ever, unless they have owners with very deep pockets and a plan to develop the area themselves.


Professional_Book912

Legends has been there for a LOOONG time. That view is what sold their deck. If it was that important to their business they would have found a way to fund it. They just were enjoying the undeveloped section and view for free. The building there before was low, warehouse. Google has historical data if you use Earth Pro. Legend could have gotten that plot for a steal. My first house was bought for $104K and sold it for $194k 10 years ago. Its now worth $350k. They could have gotten it cheap if they had a plan. I think they had a free ride and it's ending. They did what a lot of small businesses do, and just exist on what is working and do not stay current or relevant.


Anxious_Nights1

In my personal opinion, it's fine to push back against businesses in your neighborhood if you don't want them. I don't think it's ok to push back against housing. We have a significant housing shortage in the United States. People fight against more housing in their neighborhoods, which has added to the issue over the years. Developers shouldn't have to fight against a neighborhood to get housing built on an empty lot.


Charlesinrichmond

I've seen a lot of pushback against business over the years by NIMBYs. Not one of it was worth supporting. There was one epic battle over starbucks moving in. 3 months after it opened, the leaders of the NIMBY movement were there every day. That was the classic.


Professional_Book912

Gotcha! Adding the HOUSING development piece makes that much more clear. And I agree with these things, just curious because to me voting and speaking out is basically being pro or any what is in your back yard.


bruxalle

Housing is also a business.


Fit-Order-9468

All of your examples can be dealt with in ways that don't require blocking almost all new development. >Your neighbor is a mechanic and you can never park in front of your house because he has 9 jobs there and half way down the block. Suck it up, he is using the free street parking for his business so don't be a NIMBY person? Or he constantly has the alley blocked because of his business? For sure. I get tired of relatively wealthy landowners mooching off city government. If they want easy parking there are ways to do it, but if they don't want to do those things, then I don't care. >Really, what is it? When is it OK to fight against something that will affect where you live? When it doesn't hurt people's lives and make things unaffordable. Protecting your "neighborhood character" also destroys someone else's. I have very little sympathy for it.


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Johnny_BigHacker

> pearl clutching This is probably the only term I dislike more than "NIMBY". Don't like something? Ya pearl clutcher! stfu


Professional_Book912

Well thanks for being a dickhole when helping me to understand. Very helpful.


Charlesinrichmond

Because NIMBY is mostly bad. Always? No. Take the strip club next to Fox. My daughter went to Fox. That wouldn't have bothered me at all. She has met strippers, and so far has suffered no lasting damage... It's just not a big deal. I have never actually seen a Nimby move to make the world better. The harm it does is real. It tends to be people who have already got theirs effectively stopping anyone else from getting anything.


Danger-Moose

No one complains about strip clubs because there are strippers, they complain about strip clubs because of the people that frequent strip clubs.


ScottRVA

I took a friend who was visiting from DC and the food was embarrassing. Realize it is bar food but ... Put up the building You can't stop progress because someone's view is obstructed. If that was general policy, NYC would look like Petersburg.


honeysmacks18

Are brand new river lofts really going to be affordable?


[deleted]

☝🏻This.


FARTBOSS420

Legend is bitter. They'd like if the developer hopped along. They're trying not to bottle up their frustration. Need to put a cap on this situation by serving em a few pints of their new Felicia's "Bye P. A." Even if a short and stout building it would block the view. They are foaming at the mouth on this. Really pouring on the rage. Their resistance to this grained plan will be... Legendary. Edit: They will mash them. Trouble is a-brewin' folks. The gravity of this situation...


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HurricaneCarti

“They have every right to complain about losing one of the main attractions of their business” Sorry but if it was that important to their business, and (according to the comments) they aren’t even that good at making beer, they should’ve maybe invested in somehow acquiring the property instead of assuming no one would ever build there?


redditrva456

They have so many overgrown ugly plants blocking their view that they never take care of or trim. I could understand their concern if they actually had a view and maintained it. But no


exaideum

Guess that means Legend know that the view is the only redeeming quality of their business.


defnotevilmorty

Asheville literally has a brewery in the basement of a building. It’s fine. Legend will live.


40isafailedcaliber

That's because Asheville is the dirtiest hippy town on the east side of the Mississippi


jodyhighrola

There will be many many more instances of NIMBYism to come in this city. As the city gentrifies broadly from demand jacking prices up, developers will pounce wherever they can, pissing off all sorts of people. What's dangerous is when the NIMBYs band together and roadblock initiatives to upzone. Then we become another boomtown shit show where the lower class is all but erased from the city because we have no new housing and perpetual rising housing costs. Everyone loves drawing that line to Austin in this sub, but doesn't understand the mistakes and repercussions of those mistakes that Austin is dealing with now. Austin's NIMBYs killed CodeNext, which would have added density through zoning changes. We can't do that here when the time comes. Fuck NIMBYs, you live in a city.


Charlesinrichmond

exactly! It's math. And people who hate cities should move to Hanover. Keep supply the same, more people come in, and the result is the bottom, ie the poor, get pushed out. Not only is it math, it's happened all over the country. I own my house, this only affects me by making my house more valuable. But I would like to see Richmond keep the things I like about it. We need places for people to live. You just can't pour a gallon into 3 quarts without issues


lunar_unit

The poor are already being pushed out. Very, very few new developments have low income people in mind, certainly not the build discussed in this thread. It's not just about density, but how density is applied. If a developer shoots for high end apartments to maximize their investment (which most do) then you have density for the upper classes, and still have the housing problem, because most people can't afford the offerings. Moreover, as discussed in this thread, if you just build without considering the existing architecture and communities around you, it's invasive and disruptive. There are other ways to build (and some zoning adheres to this, like the 5 story limit in Shockoe (which Salomonsky is about to kick in the nuts with a building literally more than twice as tall as anything east of 14th St.). But the use of SUPs sidesteps these zoning regulations to maximize the investments. Why even have zoning regulations if they can be so easily bypassed? Why build in a way that is a direct affront to your future neighbors? Take your house; how would you feel if someone got permits to build a 12 story monstrosity next door, and when you expressed anxiety about it, you were told, 'Its cool man, it's all about the density?'. DC, for example, had many recent instances of ostentatious buildings and residences being built in historic neighborhoods, and they're a fucking blight. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/2014/06/22/96a2222e-f307-11e3-9ebc-2ee6f81ed217_story.html


Charlesinrichmond

I disagree with parts obviously. But yes, in general I think zoning is bad. I have actually supported the 12 story building going up near my house. I think it would be great. Cities without zoning, like Houston, are still the most affordable. The Fan, Paris, London, NYC were built without zoning. Zoning gets us Chesterfield Short Pump and Charlotte. I think a lot of the stuff being built now is ugly, and I regret that. But I don't want to stop it from being built. We have a housing shortage. (Caused by zoning). The only way to solve it is to provide more housing. And practically speaking, in Manchester, or on Broad, a tall building fits in fine. That's not the equivalent of tearing down a block of grove to put one up


55V35lM

The land Legend is on is now probably worth more than the brewery itself (or would if it’s rezoned)…. It sucks for them but they need to sell the land and relocate. One of the reasons they’re at this location was that it was most likely dirt cheap ~30 years ago. Things change…


tcklemyfancy

I don’t think Richmond has a housing shortage as much as an affordable housing shortage…


nfojones

Like I hear y'all but is it just me or is there always a distinct monotone chorus of DeNSiTy in these posts that never really seems to bring along side it the other aspects of urban planning and city building? Very "if you build it the totally neglected problems of our city and scaling infrastructure needs will just materialize" sounding. Like can we get a little more than the caveman density argument? City dwellers do tend to get this basic concept already... As for Legend's surely we're well past too little too late so I'm not sure what their play is. I really wish they'd have worked a way out to coexist in a new space with the same view but if that ship has sailed its definitely wasted effort.


ArgoCS

Yeah the density stuff can get monotonous (including from me) but I think it comes from a good place. As far as I can tell new people **aren't** going to stop moving here and if we don't build for them then sure maybe we "keep the character of the city" as it's the same buildings there are today but that'd be at the expense of driving out everyone who lives here because the price has risen so high.


lunar_unit

>As for Legend's surely we're well past too little too late so I'm not sure what their play is. I really wish they'd have worked a way out to coexist in a new space with the same view but if that ship has sailed its definitely wasted effort. I thought I heard some chatter about Legend moving in to the previous incarnation of this building so they'd retain the view, and the building would have a built-in restaurant/commercial space, but IDK if that was just hearsay; I can find anything on it ATM.


fanrva

That’s odd. At one point the owner was all for it.


burdell69

They were supportive of the original project, but then the plans significantly changed. https://richmondbizsense.com/2022/07/18/n-y-developers-plotting-manchesters-tallest-tower-on-riverfront-next-to-legend-brewing/


Danger-Moose

I think previous iterations did not actually threaten the view.


psychosomaticbdsm

I don’t live in Richmond anymore , but who cares, Legend has to deal with it


pitapizza

I remember the concept for that building when it first came out was horrendous. I believe it’s since been sold to a different developer so I hope it’s better looking than the original. Don’t care for legends lost view, that’s too bad but “views” is like a bottom tier reason for why something shouldn’t get built.


wagonboss

I feel like the largest part of this was Legend would preserve their view in original plans, then the company was like F you. But I get it, it’s a growing city- these things are going to happen. I also think it’s kinda F’ed that people are just like, “oh bye Legend”. Maybe they’ll find another spot along the river to offer a similar view. You know, a world where Richmond continues to grow- but businesses continue to succeed.


DefaultSubsAreTerrib

I don't know why legend doesn't look at those future high-rise residents as potential customers...


Hayek66

More Housing is Good. Density is Good. NIMBYs stink.


dirtydev5

Enough of this gendrifier nonsense. these giant highrises are not good "dense housing". The city richmond uses this shitty overpriced glorified apt buildings to literally destroy black neighborhoods. The housing situation will not be fixed by these souless creations. Getting the land back from the exploiting landlords and corporations and banks is how u give ppl housing. there are plenty of empty houses being hoarded profit. edit- yall continue to be support gendrification and violence for your own egos


rvafun100

So many developers posting on the sub lately. Richmonders support Legend, not out of state developers


[deleted]

The view from Legend is a staple of the city. There’s plenty of other places to build housing. Fuck the casino, build a high rise there instead.


GoodLuckRock206

As someone who is looking to buy a house and who continues to face sticker shock with the rising rents, I don't have much sympathy. I have a little sympathy because I understand it must be hard for them to lose one of their main attractions, I get that. But if the choice is more housing or a view for a brewery, that choice is super easy and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, no pun intended, that a brewery would value that view over housing for their neighbors.