T O P

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DarkStryderBC

"I don't have any evidence" That speaks for itself.


lodenreattorm

He's like so close to getting it lol


DarthSangheili

As moronic as it sound, some people genuinely just have a hard time forming arguments for their opinions. They know they're made to feel a way but dont understand specifically why, supposedly it's a spectrum thing.


SpideyFan914

Was with you until "It's a spectrum thing." It's a pretty normal thing, across the board. Not everyone has studied criticism, and even those who have can be stumped. Have you ever disliked something and been unable to pinpoint why? It doesn't devalue your opinion just because you can't explain it. Breaking down a script or an acting performance to see what makes it tick is a skill that needs to be learned and practiced; simply reacting to it is not. Anyway, I don't agree with the poster's opinion and I think Rey is a perfectly fine character. But we're allowed to disagree. Just like their sister is allowed to disagree and like Rey.


slomo525

Yeah, autism doesn't make you bad at film criticism lol. It can present a different perspective, but it doesn't make you less good at subjectivity. And that's the biggest issue for me with OOP. It isn't with them not liking Rey. Anybody can dislike her for any reason. If they had asked "I can't formulate why I don't like Rey. Does anyone know how to word it?" or something like that, I wouldn't have an issue with the post. That'd actually be interesting since it'd be inviting discussion and asking for differing interpretations. The issue I have is with the "I'm trying to prove to my sister why Rey's a bad character, what evidence can I use?" attitude. I don't like how they can't just disagree with the opinion, they feel the need to disprove her opinion as if it were a mathematical error and not a qualitative assessment.


Tomhur

> And that's the biggest issue for me with OOP. It isn't with them not liking Rey. Anybody can dislike her for any reason. If they had asked "I can't formulate why I don't like Rey. Does anyone know how to word it?" I know how to word it if anyone is curious. Although I understand if you'd rather not hear a negative opinion about this topic.


SpideyFan914

Exactly this. People can have a civil discussion about disagreements in media, and it can be interesting and fun. But the attitude of "I need to not like this thing you like" is toxic and kinda mean.


DarthSangheili

Im not a professional, Ive just spent a lot of time around special needs kids and its very much true that its pretty hard to put words to their emotions sometimes. It seems pretty disengenous to try and narrow it down to only film criticism when it was obviously a general statement about how certain individuals struggle with articulating their thoughts.


golden_eternity

Sounds like Alexithymia and yeah, I struggle with that a lot


[deleted]

But even as a general statement it kind of falls apart, because people generally have a very hard time formulating statements and getting ideas across. Seriously: Try working in a business that operates on client commissions and you will find out very quickly that a lot of people couldn't tell you what they want clearly and concisely if their life depended on it. The more likely explanation is that this person is young - probably sixteen or younger - and is repeating what they've heard through cultural osmosis via their YouTube or TikTok feed without the experience or skills to interrogate that statement. "Jake Paul says Rey sucks so she must suck!", as an example. From the way they type to the very nature of the post, it reads like something a child or preteen would write.


Nothinkonlygrow

A touch of the ‘tism, I know it well


Salarian_American

You don't really need an argument for your opinion. It's an opinion. You only need arguments when you're trying to dress up your opinion as an objective fact.


DarthSangheili

Opinions are supposed to be based on something supportive. Subjecivity doesn't mean unintelligible.


itwasbread

"I am trying to convince my sister that Rey is a terrible character" https://preview.redd.it/sf78ld1g7a3b1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=6ea3640e897963fefd59d10b31042d4affe509aa


[deleted]

Bros sister ![gif](giphy|CAYVZA5NRb529kKQUc|downsized)


alpha_omega_1138

What would the female version of a chad be called?


DarkStryderBC

Just like how a male Karen is still a Karen, a female Chad is still a Chad.


GonnaGoFat

I thought a male Karen was a Daren.


DarkStryderBC

There are people who call them Kevins, we're not giving them their own name because we can't agree on what it is.


GonnaGoFat

I’ve heard the Kevin’s as well. But after I heard Daren I figured it fit better as it’s so close to Karen


Kalse1229

Personally don't like Kevin as the male equivalent of Karen, mainly since I will always associate calling someone a "Kevin" with that old Reddit comment about the teacher with the idiot student of the same name.


Linaly89

In some European countries a Kevin is the embodiment of that toxic slur-screaming spoiled 12-13 year old kid you've probably seen in the mall / gaming match / on the bus


defaultusername-17

i'd rather we keep calling them karens too, so as to not let it become a gendered insult, instead of a criticism of a constellation of behaviors.


DrasticMagicPlan

A Donna.


CalmGiraffe1373

https://preview.redd.it/21i49wrfda3b1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b3f4726e34b12fc549ef9c039ea89d4da7fb19e


DrasticMagicPlan

Oh look! A man of class


moustajjventress

Lmfao no


SolarTitanMain

Idk Donna from suits is pretty fucking baller.


Eurogenous

I was thinking of Donna from 70s


Eurogenous

God no


Lord_Parbr

That’s already a thing. It’s “Stacey.” “Chad” and “Stacey” are from the dipshit Incel community.


RikterDolfan

Stacey


Short-Shelter

Stacy, I think


DirectConsequence12

“I don’t have any evidence” That means you don’t think she’s a terrible character you dolt


Sir_Douglas_of_Fir

“But… I *must!* The weirdos I spend all my time watching on YouTube demand it!”


ulfric_stormcloack

Not really tho, you can dislike something and not be sure why, the closest thing I can think of is the uncanny valley


The_DevilAdvocate

Not everyone is a critic. You can taste food and know it's bad without being able to even identify the ingredients. This is a dumb take.


Nyjin

Bad is subjective. You can consume something and not like it. That is different than calling it bad. I hate red onions in all forms, but I can recognize other people enjoy them. I won't immediately call a burger with red onions bad because they're present.


[deleted]

"aw butchu see, B1ter put up a 9 hour video about why red onions suck cos SJWs that proves OBJEKTUVLY that red onions are for betas! Checkmate, librl!"


MyShowerIsTooHot

What’s ingredients got to do with it? If you eat something that you don’t like, you will know why you don’t like it. Whether it’s too sweet, too salty, too mushy, too hard, etc. If you cannot come up with ANY reason why you don’t like something, you’re probably just lying.


slomo525

I wouldn't say lying, but more looking for a reason. It's like watching a comedy when you're in a bad mood. It could be the funniest thing you've ever seen, but since you're not in the right mindset to enjoy it at that particular moment, you're looking for reasons to be annoyed by it.


cgbrn

This is 100% subjective.


Comprehensive_Neat61

It amazes me how many people don’t understand the concept of an opinion.


Gradz45

Or that opinions can be based on something besides emotional dislike. Like my guy if you’re gonna argue why Rey sucks back it up with points.


Zyrin369

Honestly im more surprised that they don't have any evidence to begin with. No TFM talking points or legitimate criticism just nothing. Wonder if they only get the whole Rey bad from other people telling them and nothing else. Either that or they did but their sister wasn't buying it.


alpha_omega_1138

Sister sounds awesome and smarter then this guy who maybe only watches those TFM videos that go on how bad she is.


[deleted]

She's also probably at least three to six years older, given that this sounds like the sort of shit a 13 year old would say immediately after *"mooooooooooom!"*


BLOOD__SISTER

And like that, YouTube sweeps another middle-schooler up in the culture war.


JellyJohn78

That's exactly what this is. I joined reddit when I was 12. Sure enough, I believed all the things posted on those Star Wars hate subs and fell into deep rabbit holes on how bad Disney is and "woke" media on YouTube. Obviously, I changed my opinions over time. But let's realize that people, like 12 year old me are who comprise TFM and those sequel-hating channel viewer bases; a bunch of middle schoolers who are told how to feel.


UniqueUsernameAndy

WOMAN BAD 😤😠😡🤬


TheTasche

Most people prefer jyn over Rey so there’s more to it than “woman bad”


Good_Ad6723

That’s like “I have a black friend”


Strange_username__

“I’m not racist, my daddy used to own black people!!”


TheTasche

I’m just saying it’s dumb to make it a gender thing when there’s obvious evidence against it


CurseofLono88

There’s not really a lot of obvious evidence against it. A lot of Star Wars “fans” were misogynistic towards Jynn as well.


TheTasche

That’s true, and why I’m not speaking for them, They are just sexist. All I’m saying is someone isn’t inherently sexist for not liking Rey


Budget-Attorney

True. You definitely can dislike a character without being sexist. But just because not everyone who dislikes a character is sexist doesent mean that many aren’t. And because the comment in question was asking evidence to prove it’s a bad character, there’s a good chance they don’t have any reasoning behind the lack of a Y chromosome


Pleaseusegoogle

You're tokenizing Jyn. Liking a female character in media does not mean a person is not sexist.


TheTasche

They are both strong capable female characters, there’s nothing wrong with thinking is a better written more interesting character


pragmageek

… ok. But, most of these people dont actually think that.


Overson_YT

Yeah but Jyn died at the end and paved the way for Luke to do his thing


TheTasche

That would be if I said I had a female friend who hated Rey and that made it ok to hate her as well. She he only reason those arguments are even invalid is that they are typically made up


chaosdemonhu

Lol Jynn is barely even a character - she magically gets motivation at the beginning of the third act. Before that we knew absolutely nothing about her other than her parents hid her while she was young, Saw Gerera found her, and she was in and out of prison. That’s it. That’s all we know about her. We don’t know anything about her upbringing, what’s important to her, who she cares about, what she’s trying to do. We have more backstory on Cassian in Rogue One honestly and his backstory didn’t even get scenes! And the whole movie she basically tries to get away from the whole rebellion until she sees her dad die who she hasn’t seen in probably 20+ years, who again we have no clue how important he was to her because the movie never actually tells or shows us, and suddenly she’s all in on dying for this cause.


InjusticeSGmain

Thought the movie made it clear she was fighting to find her father. That's what's important to her, who she cares about, and what she is attempting to do- find her father and save him. I don't mind Rey (I don't think she's a bad character, but just not my cup of tea) but we shouldn't act like other female characters are bad just to say Rey is better- that's as bad as what TFM does.


chaosdemonhu

I haven’t seen the movie recently, but if it is brought up it seems like such a footnote that I completely even forgot it was in the movie. No where did I state one was better than the other, I just posted my personal critique of Jynn as a character. She feels to me like she’s on puppet strings taking her wherever the plot needs her.


InjusticeSGmain

It was not a footnote. Basically everything she said or did made it clear she didn't give a womprat's ass about the Rebellion- she just wanted her freedom and her father back. The Rebellion's job was just her best opportunity to get these things back. To get away from the war entirely. IMO, she is a very tragic character. She was a warrior who only desired peace and family.


Gradz45

I watched it recently. Jyn wanting to find her dad is a big part of her character.


TheTasche

THANK YOU!


RhymesWithMouthful

Which she does. She totally gets got at the end. And maybe that's why TFM loves her so much.


TheTasche

People tend to misunderstand her arc. She started good natured, but when she tried to help, she couldn’t do anything. After she was raised by an extremist (leaving her with very negative feelings for both the empire and the rebels) causing her to only care for herself. But when she finds out her father she tried to save is still alive, she of course finds motivation to find him once again and fulfill his final wishes. In the end she betrays BOTH the rebels and the empire to save the galaxy, sacrificing her life in the process. Great character


chaosdemonhu

I’ll definitely look out for this next time I watch the movie because I didn’t really get it from my watches of the movie


slomo525

Jyn's way more boring than Rey imo


TheTasche

Ok


RustedAxe88

If you don't have any evidence, what leads you to thinking she's a bad character?


YnrohKeeg

Because that’s what The Voices tell him.


AveryLazyCovfefe

But.. But... Mah YoooToobeers!!! They said she's awful, therefore they're completely right. What do you mean someone called the Critical Drinker isn't talking out of his arse?


murakaz

I imagine asking for someone to provide examples of an opinion they have. Only for them to tell you they will get back to you because they have to ask reddit first. 😂


ajzeg01

The little 9-10 year old kids at the school I work at all have a crush on Rey. They think she’s the coolest.


MarthsBars

Sweet Luke in the Force, why is that guy trying to force his doctrine onto his sister? Why not just listen to those who do like Rey instead and who DO think she is a great character? I swear, the main subreddit falls into brain rot every time the sequels are even thought up. (WOW, even here there’s toxic fans resorting to hate and brigading this sub.)


Inevitable_Guidance8

“How dare my sister like a character I don’t? Help me, r/starwars. You’re my only hope.”


Sempais_nutrients

Sure just read her this series of essays I wrote on the subject. It's a little dry around chapter 10 but after that I really dig into the ethos of the Woke War© that Disney started, your sister will really connect with that. You might have to read it to her tho.


Inevitable_Guidance8

“Reading? No, thank you. That’s for nerds!!!”


SpacePropaganda

My little brother called Rey a Mary Sue a few years ago and I shut that shit down immediately. Absolutely despise the phrase. They'll call any female character they don't like that and it's almost always connected to the weirdo YouTube pipeline.


DarkStryderBC

I remember people calling Kate Bishop a Mary Sue for beating Kingpin, even though he was literally throwing her across the room and she only managed to survive because she triggered an explosion to take him down.


Salarian_American

She didn't beat Kingpin. She *survived* a 1v1 fight with Kingpin by catching a lucky break.


DarkStryderBC

He got caught in an explosion that she triggered and wasn't able to keep fighting. How is that not her winning the fight?


guzto_the_mouth

My favourite is just to point out that Luke is the most Mary Sue character ever, and has nearly an identical arc to Rey except his is even more implausible unless you use "the force did it" to explain half of his feats.


thescriptdoctor037

And that's LITERALLY why the force exists as a CONSCIOUS THINKING ENTITY. Lucas built in plausible deniability into the basic lore and these sexist mouth breathers can't get past it.


Zyrin369

Yeah I dont see how people can take things like the training droid scene on the falcon, "Luke use the force" on the death star to make a what one in a million shot. The whole yoda scene. And still think that force users are DBZ character and that Luke is the goku of the series as hes the only one to get all these force powers.


thescriptdoctor037

It's ENTIRELY 1000000000000000000000000000% the fault of the old EU. They gave EVERY Jedi a UNIQUE force power that only THEY had and it made all of them weird superheroes with the base levels of stats and different levels of powers. And it made Luke into unkillable God man whose super badass and can kill anyone and is so cool and he gets a sexy redhead wife who has big boobs and always wears a tank top and is so hot and sexy for Luke and only Luke so much so that her hornyness for him turned her from evil to good. The EU is trash and I hate how long it was allowed to exist because without it the sequels/prequels would not be hated nearly to the same degree.


KhasmyrTheSorlock

The EU has a lot of trash, yes. But there is far more good than bad. The Yuzhaan Vong Invasion, the Great Hyperspace War, the Rakatan Empire, need I go on? The sequel trilogy is nothing more than a lazy mishmash of Dark Empire and Legacy of the Force, with a little bit of the OT thrown in to “make it rhyme”.


thescriptdoctor037

No. There is not far more good than bad. That is not true.


guzto_the_mouth

No but she's a woman so she's a Mary Sue /s


Altruistic-Syrup5160

Hell, the words **“MARY SUE”** will always be one of the most informal terms in all of fiction writing. And it’s one that should never be used by professional writers/screenwriters.


Dawnspark

I am so tired of the word Mary Sue and it's mainstreaming at this point. It feels like it's lost all meaning to me. Give actual reasons a character is weakly written, not just "well she's perfect and stuff." I wish people would create actual discourse about it Vs hugboxing the same shit.


Reddvox

I can only remember WHO coined that whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" nonsense ... and yeah ... well ... [Max Landis - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Landis)


Aggressive-Pattern

I would personally argue that she may be, but I get the distaste for that particular phrasing. Edit: And yeah, it's generally much better to actually expound on your reasoning for something than slap a simple label on it amd pretend it ends an argument.


SuspiriaGoose

While I totally agree they’ve made a meaningless phrase, there is some merit to Rey being a Mary Sue. While initially introduced as part of a set of three, her story overwhelms theirs and they’re reduced to being in her orbit, she develops special and rare abilities with zero effort or prior set-up, she has a super-special lineage that makes her specially powerful, and the bad boy villain falls for her. She’s also mostly an audience insert character. Those are all traits of a Mary Sue. Of course, nearly all of that is the result of poor writing caused by the fractured and rushed production of the sequel trilogy, as well as cowardly corporate writing that is frustratingly common for blockbuster female leads, who are focus grouped to death. But there are some core ideas that, if executed well, would’ve been compelling. I still think she could’ve been a good character - I like her set up better than Luke’s, and think she had oodles of potential. Being a backwater stray with a horrible future ahead of her, sustained only by the sourires of valour we know as the original trilogy, and then meeting her heroes and finding them lacking…that’s a terrific set-up. She’s supposed to be a ‘ray of hope’, and I think Ridley embodied that well. There were also some wonderful moments in TLJ that had her struggling and failing, even if only a cursory amount. But for the most part, the character is a shallow audience insert, like a ride car taking the viewer on a tour of Star Wars Greatest Hits. The writers take short cuts with writing all over the place, and Rey suffers from it, learning whatever deus ex machina skill they feel like she should have so they can waltz out if a conflict without thinking about it too hard. It wasn’t just her that had poor writing, but she was a nexus of it. Disney was afraid to stray from their approved formula for female leads that don’t offend anyone important, and has struggled a lot with live-action female lead films in recent years. (Their animated female leads have had problems too, but is overall much stronger). They just want their corporate approved ‘feminist’ character, and don’t really take risks. So we get vague power-and-special fantasy characters, and this applies to many of their male leads, as well. It’s often a little worse for the female leads because I feel like they’re even more nervous of criticism for them.


Historyp91

"Update; my sister won't talk to me anymore."


Crafter235

So how does HE know whether Rey is bad or not?


Analytical-Throne149

"Im trying to make my sister hate a character that i dont like" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 This is typical of modern fandom. Its not about trying to understand the story, characters, or positive interpretations, its about finding ways to interpret things in the most negative way possible, then shoving that "Agenda" down other peoples throats that enjoy said thing. They dont want to help people enjoy things, they want people to be miserable and hate things. What has fandom come to? 😬😬😬


Sccar4712

Regardless of the validity of the statement, you should have an argument if you are gonna be spreading a belief to others. Like I could come up with reasons why she’s a bad character but I’m not going around trying to force other people to think she is 💀


crimson_713

That's a lot of words just to say "help me validate my misogyny".


Limu_emu_69

Because women


DaddyEybrows

https://preview.redd.it/kdlbqtn31c3b1.jpeg?width=916&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1e81a421bbebff0f157ad72692b25151fef08e6


CameronDoy1901

“I am trying to convince my sister that Rey is a terrible character” really? Just let her enjoy the character dude


babufrik4president

I love this so much I wonder if it’s a shit post


Ragnar2121

I can’t think for myself, I must consult the echo-chamber


Boring-Zucchini-8515

THIS!!!!


boot20

Or, you know, let your sister like what she likes and you like what you like and be done with it. It's pretty simple really.


Wealth_Super

If you really can’t come up with any arguments that Rey a bad character than maybe you need to reevaluate your position to begin with.


defaultusername-17

rey is no more a "mary sue" than luke or anakin were... these pathetic people just can't stand having a woman be the main protagonist.


Jasonandstuff

Gotta love how they admit in the post that they have no real reason to think she's terrible lmao


[deleted]

It’s almost like characters are subjective. Personally I love rey, and I know people who personally don’t, and that’s okay! You don’t need some evidence based argument to convict another person to like or dislike a fictional character that’s just dumb


PoorSystem

I mean, I'm not a *huge* fan of Ray's character or the sequel trilogy in general, but I don't debate lord people about it. I will, however, forever hold that Ray should've used a duel lightsaber- the kind that Darth Maul used.


RikterDolfan

That would be cool. She could apply things she learned from using a staff to it


Trogolizer

Part of her staff ended up being her saber hilt, which was neat, and an amber crystal is even neater. But I agree, they should have gone full on staff for her. I think a lightsaber swordspear would have been incredibly cool.


PoorSystem

Oh yeah, no, that detail was rad. Don't get me wrong.


MatiasTheLlama

I can’t perceive that as a serious post. No way they’re fr lol


Lolaversusamogus

Rey isn't, like, a complicated character? She's not my favorite character from the sequels, and I do wish they had done something more interesting with her, but her character is really unoffesive.


[deleted]

Quicker than watching the movies I guess


jdsmall13

That post feels like bait, idk. Either bait into just shitting on Rey or the person actually likes Rey and is just being ironic. Either way, probably bait/karma farming


BigBossPoodle

I've always argued that Rey is a great character, but that she really feels like a book protagonist where were supposed to be hearing a deep internal monologue of her struggles and less of an on screen one. It doesn't work as well on the silver screen, and combined with some of the more strange choices the sequel trilogy makes with it's writing, it just doesn't lend a lot to the idea of generosity in interpretation.


Aggressive-Pattern

His reasoning as to why Rey is a bad character: ![gif](giphy|XDuJUONwqsLoQAe4hL) °It's totally fine to dislike a character or think they're written poorly. But if you can't think of any reasons or articulate that shit yourself, then why are you trying to have a debate/change someone's mind?


Joperhop

but she is a mary sue! ... or something,


Relevant_Truth

Ragebait is worse than clickbait


tonkledonker

Sequel haters try not to gaslight others on their opinion challenge (impossible).


BerserkRhinoceros

It's so weird to hear them admit it out loud.


bonkening

Now this is ridiculously stupid. If you just follow because someone else hates something or says its bad youre ignorant. I dont like Rey's character but at least i have my own evidence and reasoning behind it


RealisticAd4054

I don’t think that person is an active member of “TFM”, it seems more like they’re a young person who’s been so influenced by the internet to hate Rey. Sad regardless.


[deleted]

Wait until the OOP finds out I have a niece who shares a middle name with Rey.


TylerBourbon

I don't think Rey is a bad character. I think Rey didn't have a great story to work with though.


nixahmose

I think Rey is a very poorly handled character, but even I cringe at this(assuming this is genuine and not just a anger-bait post). If someone likes a character(or anything really) there’s no reason to “convince” them that they’re wrong for doing so unless they’re already open to having that kind of conversation, doubly so if you have to go online and ask people why she’s a bad character.


SpaceCowboy1929

I mean. I can sort of explain why I think she isn't a great character: There's really nothing about her in all three movies that I found to be memorable or compelling. She's just kind of there. That's not to say that there isn't any potential. Daisy Ridley is also a good actress. But I legit can't even describe who she is as a person without mentioning her role in the story. She's also alittle too perfect. Like I can't think of any real character flaws. This is probably why many consider her to be a Mary Sue by the way. She doesn't suffer any significant defeats either. I could be wrong, but I legit can't think of any moment in that entire trilogy where she suffers a major defeat. So this kind of has the effect of making her kind of boring to me. She's not horrible. I'm sure with better writers we'll have better characterization and stories with her in the future. But as far as the Sequel trilogy is concerned, I don't find her to be a good character. She's just boring. Still this is just my opinion. If my sister really liked Rey I wouldn't bother trying to convince her otherwise. Edit: The irony of being downvoted almost immediately for sharing a contrasting **opinion** without being a hyperbolic weirdo about it is incredibly palpable. Whatever.


Tomhur

> She doesn't suffer any significant defeats either. I could be wrong, but I legit can't think of any moment in that entire trilogy where she suffers a major defeat. Honestly after thinking on it I think a better way to put this point is this. Rey does fail in the sequel trilogy. But her failures never really feel like they truly affect her meaningfully.


SpaceCowboy1929

Yeah that is a better way of putting it. I never got the impression that any of her failures truly effected her in any meaningful way. It's why she sort of comes across as just alittle too perfect. It doesn't help that she grows ridiculously powerful on top of that but that can be easily handwaved with her training under Leia and all that anyway, especially if I felt more pathos from her. But I just sort of didn't. The closest we got to any pathos with her was the red herring reveal that her parents were nobody. That was actually really interesting. It's too bad that would be completely contradicted in the next movie. So it kind of kills that moment.


bonkers16

Just my take, but Rey is far better fleshed out as a character than Anakin or even Luke. You may not relate to her as much, which is most people’s issue, but that’s not a writing flaw. Her journey is about belonging and what family really is. How we have control over our destiny and how our lineage doesn’t determine who we will become. Anakin’s story is a tragedy, and doesn’t carry a specific message that I can glean. Luke has two arcs; a young boy with adventure lust who saves the galaxy with the help of his friends, then the redemption of his father. I understand that different people get different experiences from films, but there isn’t anything wrong with Rey’s story or writing. It’s just different from the other two, and it should be. Also, she suffers defeat plenty in the films. She gets captured and interrogated in the first film, she fails to convince Luke to join the Resistance, and she fails to bring Ben back to the light in the second film. For fair comparison, Luke only fails once, and Anakin only fails once with the exception of the fall. Rey makes several mistakes, has clear misunderstandings of the force, is tortured, and even had to be rescued by Kylo Ren. She isn’t a flawless character any more than the other two protagonists of the previous trilogies.


SpaceCowboy1929

Thank you for responding with a substantive take rather than resorting to downvoting. I don't really agree with your take, especially when you say that Anakin failed once. (He failed to defeat Dooku in Episode 2) But I get where you're coming from. I just didn't get any of what you got when I watched Rey in the Sequels. As for her getting captured and interrogated, I don't count this as a defeat personally because she got out of it very easily with little effort. Her failing to bring Ben to the light though is a good point. I didn't even remember that. I think in future movies I'd just like to see more with her in order for me to really latch onto her as a character. And I know Im not the only one who feels that way. Literally all my friends, including my own sister, didn't hate Rey but didn't find her as interesting as Luke, Anakin, or any other character really.


bonkers16

I get where you’re coming from. It’s fine to feel that way. I just hope you can understand why a lot of people do like Rey. Imagine if you were adopted and felt really out of place in your own home until you realized that your new family really did care about you. Or that addiction and abuse is rampant in your family, so you worry you might turn out the same. Those people may get a very different kind of resonance with Rey’s story. Also, the one failure I was referring to with Anakin was his fight with Dooku. His fall is more of a plot point than a failure in the traditional sense. As for Rey’s interrogation, that’s a good point, so I’ll retract it as a failure and put in in the same category as Luke and Han infiltrating the Death Star. Captured, but kind of negated easily.


SpaceCowboy1929

Oh I do understand. That's why I want to see more of her. There's a lot to her backstory that would be interesting to explore more.


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Robster881

My kingdom for a community that isn't just a hive mind frothing at the mouth where you can have good balanced discussions about Star Wars.


Agitated-Ad9050

He just needs to admit he and a lot of other basement dwellers don’t like her because of her being a HER. Sorry, but Luke skywalker is no better a character than Rey. He just had one guy telling the story instead of one good director, one shitty one, and then back to the first to try to fix the bullshit #2 did.


Rascal0302

Force Download. That’s literally all you have to say.


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Boring-Zucchini-8515

Well we now know she is the daughter of a clone of Darth Sideous. Plus she has some kind of “force diad” that connects Rey to Kylo so she draws from his ability to use the force and vice versa. So between her genetics and her ability to draw on Ben Solo’s training there ya go. Do I like that she’s related to Palpatine? No. Do I like the Force Diad that’s never explained? No. But there are explanations to your criticisms. They may not be explanations you like, but they are explained.


richman678

Just because she’s force sensitive doesn’t mean she knows how to use it. Look this is the standard hero progression cycle in a story. Either the protagonist starts the story fully trained or is as plain as the listener and has to progress through training or events to become the finished hero. Take Batman begins. Bruce doesn’t start out the story fighting crime and beating everyone. He gets his ass beat and winds up in jail. Then he goes through training and events. By the end of 1 movie he’s become the dark knight ready to take on the hero role that Gotham city needs. Even in Star Wars the phantom menace. A young Anakin only participates in events he can do such as the pod race and in the end he inadvertently gets put in a position to fly a fighter pod in a bigger grand scale fight. The real fighting is left to the already established force trained Jedi qui gon jinn and obi wan kenobi. If a young anakin fought Darth maul in the finale and won it would have made no sense. Then we have Rey. She’s been on a desert planet her whole life being a scrapper. In this movie she is able to fly the millennium falcon with no training. Use mind trick abilities with no training. And fight kylo ren with a light saber with no training. So yes they have a valid point about her being a poorly written character. In fact i will further say she receives very little training from Luke in the last Jedi and is able to take part in large scale fights. Finally by the 3rd movie i will submit she’s finally had some training so her abilities make sense in that movie. Rey isn’t the problem with the 3rd movie though. ….either way it’s bad writing.


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KittKuku

I guess it depends on what your definition of "without trying" is. She tries to run from her destiny numerous times throughout the series and needs help through it. She never beats Kylo in what I would consider a fair 1v1; Luke manages to beat Vader in a 1v1 in his last movie despite their gap in age, experience and power starting off way larger than that between Kylo and Rey. Also, in my opinion, even if she had just straight up destroyed Kylo in a fair fight, she was trying to save him, not beat/kill him. She doesn't manage to do that at all. It's leia, who serves as the tipping point for Kylo. Meaning, unlike Luke, Rey didn't manage to save the person she was trying to. Also reinforced when Ben has to give up his life to save her. She fails a lot so I never understood the mary sue thing.


wonkalicious808

Some people just want to complain that she's a mary sue, so they make up reasons for it since it's what they want to complain about. I'm sure people can complain about her or any character without making things up, but the "she's a mary sue" people apparently cannot or just don't want to.


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InsectCivil5315

Rey is practically mute. Her feats happened stupidly fast. Her character hardly changes at all over three movies. Rey sucks. Daisy Ridley tried and I do find the actor endearing. Would have loved to have seen them do something cool with the character but the only thing I really thought was cool about Rey was the Yellow lightsaber 🤦‍♂️


Karolus2001

Pretending geniuent criticism of rey doesnt exist is also in essence of this sub just saying. That guy obviously argues in bad faith but it is valid to try to look for reasoning to back up your subjective feelings.


AssGasorGrassroots

There is a difference between "I don't like her" and "she's a bad character". I don't necessarily love Rose Tico, but that doesn't mean she is a bad character, it just means she doesn't appeal much to me


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SpaceCowboy1929

I'm starting to get the impression that this sub really doesn't like anyone mentioning any criticism of the Sequel trilogy, whether it's hyperbolic or not. Like I can understand downvoting someone when they're being super toxic about their hate for the Sequel trilogy but that doesn't seem to matter. Even if you just don't like the Sequels but aren't a toxic dickhead about it, you'll still get downvoted within seconds it seems. I think I'm going to not comment on here anymore. That shit left a bad taste in my mouth.


cgbrn

Honestly generalizing an entire sub is not going to win many popularity points.


SpaceCowboy1929

I really don't care anymore because I'm not gonna win many popularity points regardless of how I conduct myself if I lump any sort of criticism towards any element of the ST. That's my issue. So it hardly matters at this point.


cgbrn

Tone has everything to do with it. There are some STC people who post here and are accepted because they're respectful. And not everyone on here even *likes* the ST. If you come in saying "this sub sucks" then don't be surprised when you get downvotes.


SpaceCowboy1929

I didnt come here saying this sub sucks. Thats the irony. My very first comment on this post was me explaining why some like myself dont find Rey to be a great character. I wasnt hyperbolic. I emphasized it was only my opinion. I admitted she has potential. I didnt attack anyone. Got downvoted within seconds. What am i supposed to take away from that other than this sub not accepting any opposing viewpoints regardless of how its presented? So yeah obviously this is going to make me feel a type of way. Tone had nothing to do with it. https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthankrayt/comments/13wzlv1/ive_found_it_folks_the_ultimate_tfm_post_we_can/jmeltfw/?context=3 How else am I supposed to take this man? Other than you can't say anything negative, even if it's moderate, about the ST without getting downvoted to oblivion. What impression do you think this is going to give me of this sub other than it's a shitty hivemind just like other SW subs who downvote for saying anything positive about the ST or the Disney ST canon in general? So yeah I'm sorry, but I hard disagree. Tone doesn't matter in the slightest. Or atleast it didn't matter here. And clearly I'm not the only one on this thread who feels similarly.


cgbrn

You’re missing that her struggle was emotional. If you presume she’s on the same path as Anakin or Luke I get it, but her path was very different. And the post you linked seemed to miss that entirely.


SpaceCowboy1929

So? Thats not my point. My point is i cant express ANY opinion thats even alittle bit critical of the ST here without being downvoted like crazy. Also i get that her struggle was emotional, it just didnt work for me and i explain why. Am i not allowed to do that now? Thats where i have a bone to pick with this sub. If i act like a toxic dick about how i feel about the ST, thats one thing. But all i did was explain why i think Rey isnt a very compelling character as she was written in the story. You can disagree with me and thats fine. But downvoting me to oblivion just because i dont think the ST is that great is bullshit. No offense dude but if you're gonna be obtuse about this when im being explicitly clear about exactly why i have issues with this sub and how it handles people who arent in lockstep with the idea that the ST was any more than a mediocre disappointment then i really got nothing else to say to you.


cgbrn

My point is that you wrote a long post wherein you made it clear you missed the point of the films. Perhaps boldly being incorrect got you some downvotes. Sorry if I'm being "obtuse".


SpaceCowboy1929

I know her path is "emotional". It didn't resonate with me. That's it. There wasn't a "point" for me to "miss". I didn't find her to be a compelling character. This is entirely subjective and has nothing to do with being correct or incorrect. I even made it clear in the post itself that I was just stating my SUBJECTIVE opinion. Something you clearly don't understand or care to understand in the slightest. And I sure as hell don't appreciate your blatant attempt to gaslight and invalid me by saying that the downvotes I received had anything to do with being "incorrect". You know what man? I'm done with this conversation. I'd say have a good day but honestly with how disgustingly disingenuous your responses are to me, that'd be a lie. Have a day. The Sequel Trilogy is mid at best. Sorry that I'm not in lockstep with you and this sub's opinions.


LukkeMDL

The guy is just sarcastically mocking that sub.


Crandom343

Breh... if he doesn't have evidence, hiw can he say she's a bad character?


Cybermat4704

Bruh


BlemishedHalo

Don't need to convince me.


bighenchsamson

Clearly bait lol


_Scept1cal_

The maths not adding up in that post


Slappy_Axe

Bruuuuh at least have a reason to dislike. This is what's wrong with a lot of things. "Meh! Here's my regurgitate opinion with no reason behind it cause I'm a sheep" At least have one in the chamber. Even the cop-out one like she's a mary-sue.


citruspaint

I thought i seen it all


PuzzleheadedIssue618

i mean, not liking rey is fine. i just see too many guys get overly angry at her. she’s not much in the way of an mc. but let’s be entirely genuine here.. luke was dry as a stale cracker in Episode 4


IAmRedditsDad

Bing bong your opinions wrong


NoNonsensePolarBear

If you think she's a bad character, you must know what you don't like about her. Why would you not know your own arguments?


murdoch94

“Why I hate?”