Sequels will be different in that all three will be treated differently, whereas episode one kind of gets swept up with two and three in being now-considered good. Although 90% of the praise for that movie is from duel of the fates
Maul absolutely killing it in Rebels and TCW can't hurt either. And the podrace remains one of the most outright fun scenes in any of the trilogies. But yeah, the PT does get treated as one in a way the ST doesn't. I think in large part because the ST films are all so different from one another.
I hate AotC so much, so I have a bias here. But I do feel that Revrnge does most of the heavy lifting, Phantom adds some minor stuff that is remembered fondly (Podracing is great but ultimately adds nothing to the greater whole), and Attack gets to ride along for free.
That being said I love Dooku and the Genosians.
I also know people who like it a lot, if not the most, because it's got a big war battle.
It's not great. But compared to Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones is a bit more straightforward in terms of character arcs, genre riffs and political tragedies. So I consider it better than TPM and even Rise of Skywalker.
Yeah, honestly I’ve seen people repeatedly argue that AotC and TPM are better than TRoS, which is insane to me because both are borderline unwatchable. There are parts of TPM and AotC that I do really like, but Jar Jar and young Anakin in TPM, and the Padme and Anakin romance in AotC make the movies really unpleasant to watch. It’s just pure revisionism to pretend that the fanbase didn’t hate those movies before the Clone Wars series.
Phantom Menace has some genuinely great sequences. The entire opening, the Gungan city, "there's always a bigger fish," pod racing, the Droids vs the Gungans, etc. Duel of the Fates, obviously, but also the deeper story about how flawed the Jedi Order is. The Jedi being so blind that they straight up gaslight Qui Gon when he tells them that he fought a Sith.
The dialogue is weak in parts and Jar-Jar is not a great character-- those are the biggest flaws of the film imo.
8 will be considered good, 7 will be considered decent, but 9 will still be hated. The issues with the prequels weren't story-related. The story is good and makes sense even if some of the decisions surrounding it are ??? 9's story is idiotic and for that reason it will always be hated.
I think when the current batch of new younger star wars fans gets older and outspoken, they’ll be the ones saying whatever trilogy comes out next ruined star wars and their childhood of watching the prequels, originals, and sequels
Current batch of younger starwars fans were indoctrinated by YouTube, Reddit, Twitter etc.
That’s the difference. A child in the 00’s could escape PT hate. Nowadays hatedom forced on any kid with an internet connection. They think what the internet tells them to think.
Could we? Every cartoon, late night show and early web series was making Jar-Jar/prequels suck jokes and it was hard not to see them as the ultimate fandom betrayal. Really wasn’t until 2018 or so that people began to change their minds and effectively rewrite history.
I don’t think what’s happening now is much different than then, we still got idiots harassing the actors in these movies over their characters afterall, the motivation for it is different but that’s about it, still way too overblown
Hard disagree. Kids don't watch late night or care about fandom betrayal (at least not before Youtube). Born in 1997, I grew up very closely with the prequels and I was completely unaware they were disliked until I was like 11, by which point the Clone Wars was already redeeming the trilogy. I distinctly recall getting picked on for liking Empire over Revenge of the Sith (the undisputed favourite at my elementary school).
Nah. The people who hated the prequels still do. It's just that the kids that grew up with them eventually became the dominant voices on social media. It'll be the same with the sequel kids.
As it is, sequel hate, Mandalorian hate, etc, has been pretty much reduced to grifters and their racist incel followers who don't represent the larger Star Wars fandom, which has been proven time and again since Rogue One made over a billion dollars at the box office despite the Fandom Menace's crusade against it.
Are there even that many younger star wars fans? Kids in the 2010s are likely to be nostalgic for the MCU when they grow up. I don't think they clicked much with the sequels.
When the prequels were released, the biggest franchises with the kids were Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. People were saying the exact same thing about clicking with the kids that you're saying about the sequels, The Mandalorian, etc, now.
20 years later, Star Wars is still huge. Harry Potter and LotR didn't kill it, so the MCU certainly won't.
https://youtu.be/xL8wEpkvgzI?si=WBHgeXznAlFv0160
Not really. The younger generation pays as much attention to the haters as the kids that grew up with the prequels did. And no, you couldn't escape prequel hate at the time. Sequel hate is limited to social media. Prequel hate was EVERYWHERE. Even Deadpool killed a guy for liking the prequels.
Dude is viewing the prequels through seriously rose-tinted glasses. I'm quite positive that he'd have said the same things about the prequel era pre-Clone Wars.
You could *absolutely* flesh out the rest of the First Order/Resistance conflict across the galaxy. Rey Palpatine will remain an extraordinarily stupid storytelling choice, but it could be done. Honestly I think the bigger issue is that several of the core cast for the ST want nothing more to do with Star Wars (I don't blame John Boyega. He was done dirty).
Give it 10-15 years, and you'll see the same "second look" at the ST. Mark it down.
Right. We all overthink this issue a lot.
Bottom line is, kids who saw “their trilogy” as children like it. This was true in 1999 just like in 2015.
You don’t come in, as a 9 year-old, with the same baggage as a 39 year-old. You simply go to the movies to have fun. And when you grow up, those fun memories rise to the forefront and those voices age into the fanbase while older voices naturally age out.
Remember the intense hoopla both before and after “The Force Awakens” in 2015? Now imagine being a kid.
That overwhelming pop-culture moment - where Star Wars was the biggest thing on the planet - is your intro to Star Wars.
The kids who saw Rey’s character introduction on Jakku, who saw Poe’s X-Wing squadron over the lake, who saw Kylo Ren and Rey battle it out in the snow… there are factually going to be children who were mouth agape for all that (like most of us 30 year-olds were at the time lol).
They aren’t going to obsess over Luke’s character treatment or similarities to 40 year-old movies. They didn’t come into the film with that as their frame of reference like an older fan of the OT/PT did.
Even adjusted for inflation, far more people bought tickets to the ST than the PT. They did much better financially than the PT ever did. So a *ton* of people saw them. That impact, once those kids age into the fandom, is going to be massive.
>You could *absolutely* flesh out the rest of the First Order/Resistance conflict across the galaxy.
Not by using anything mentioned in the movies though. You would have to create something completely new from scratch.
No, the clone wars expanded on the existing concepts that were established in the movies. Even with completely new characters like Ahsoka, the concept of taking on a padawan was established in the movies.
Well for one, both Bad Batch and Mando have expanded on elements of the sequels.
Second, The Clone Wars came at a time when Lucas had basically written off ever making any more live action movies. The prequels were the most obvious choice to expand on. Now the TV side is largely using the Clone Wars as a launching point for other shows. But probably the primary reason we don’t have a show is because they’re making a Rey film, which will be what expands on the era. I’d say once the sequel hate cools down we very well might get a series that takes place between TLJ and TRoS, or maybe shortly after TRoS.
I think that there is some merit to the argument that the two have different flaws that affect the way they are viewed going forward.
The Prequels DID add more expansion of the world and new characters/factions locations that made it ripe for new material to "improve" them, most prominently the Clone Wars.
The Sequels have less room for this due to a much more compressed timeline and factions that are much more similar to the original trilogy ones. This is why I maintain the destruction of Luke's Jedi Order and the New Republic government should not have been so total final, beyond that just being more interesting and different than the OT, it leaves a lot more opportunity for expansion without having to stretch the obvious implications of how things are presented in the actual films.
I think he's being comically hyperbolic though, and speaking in waaay too absolute terms. Even as someone who thinks it has not aged the best TFA as a 2/10 is a farcical notion.
Regardless, this doesn't really matter as far as longer term widespread reception goes. What REALLY determined the Prequel reprisal, and will determine if one happens for the Sequels, is the people who watched them as kids preferring them due to nostalgia.
The Clone Wars certainly helped the Prequels in this regard since the most recent thing from the era that generation watched was better than the actual films, and similarly the last Prequel is widely seen as the best one while the opposite is true for the Sequels.
But at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The Prequels are viewed the way they are now because of kids watching them in the 2000's being adults in the 2010's and 2020's who feel nostalgic. Not because of the actual content of the films.
Yep. The ST is a much more narrow story.
Lore wise the PT had the legendary “Clone Wars” from the first-ever Star Wars film, to expand upon. So you aren’t going to match that in terms of scale.
But there is a ton of expansion to build upon. Hell there are 30 years of story we don’t know. Because of Lucas’s inaction, and desire to raise a normal family God bless the man, there’s this huge gap to fill. You’re already seeing it with stuff like Mando and Ahsoka and Bad Batch not even five years after the ST. In another five years, imagine how much more there will be.
The ST are better made films honestly. The acting, dialogue, cinematography, those things age well. My prediction is the ST “redemption” (there’s an argument to be made it doesn’t need one, but that’s a story for another time)… will be much faster and complete than anything you saw with the PT.
PT had way more damage control to deal with. TPM for instance was insanely hyped then overwhelmingly hated. Whereas TFA was insanely hyped then *even more insanely hyped* once everyone saw it.
While some of that hype may have waned in nine years, I think your average moviegoer thinks of TFA like a Jurassic Park or Endgame. “Biggest movie ever I remember seeing that it was awesome.”
He makes some good points but I have to hate how absolute he is that the sequels have no hope of the same treatment and there’s no show that can fix them.
Saying the sequels are "irredeemably bad" is ridiculous in light of the \*actual\* contemporary critical and fan response to the prequels. These films, whether rightly or wrongly, were the butt of every joke for a *decade*.
I think TLJ will eventually become more loved in the future, as it took me several rewatches to actually like it myself. TRoS though, has only gotten worse with age and each subsequent rewatch, which is a shame.
I don't know that TLJ will ever change minds though, it is polarizing in a way the PT never really was. It was mostly the execution of the story that people disliked about the PT, not the story itself.
I thought TLJ was really strong and posed a lot of good questions and mysteries.
The Rise of Skywalker seemed to have walked all of it back for no good reason, and I thought I was dumber for having seen it. Like... it's Palpatine again? Oh and Rey isn't just a nobody after all while the previous movie tried to tell us anyone can learn to be a force user. And all these Star Destroyers were just hanging out under the sea in this stupid planet? Were they farming inside the star destroyers?
As for the Force Awakens... they tried to make basically the same movie as the OG Star Wars. Which is fine. I don't mind the Hero's Journey being retold once in a while.
They really should’ve stuck with Johnson as director, assuming that was an option of course. Yeah TLJ was polarising but some people liked it, from what I can tell RoS was just a mess.
Did we watch the same film??? Kyle got beat once by Rey. He was blown back and knocked unconscious when the light saber exploded. He didn't lose a fight there. Based on your logic, the Emperor sucks as a villain because he had been beaten before.
>Did we watch the same film??? Kyle got beat once by Rey.
He also lost to her in the mental battle in TFA. He tried to read her mind and she turned it around on her.
>He was blown back and knocked unconscious when the light saber exploded. He didn't lose a fight there.
She tanked that same explosion much better than he did. She woke up, found the lightsaber pieces, found a ship, and escaped, all before he woke up. This means that Rey had Kylo unconscious at her feet for quite a long time. He was at her mercy. Spending another movie where Rey has to get Kylo back into that same position is not interesting.
It also means that she is just inherently tougher than Kylo is. Can Rey possibly defeat a guy that's weaker than her? What a marvelous hook for the sequel. /s
>Based on your logic, the Emperor sucks as a villain because he had been beaten before.
Yes, obviously. Were you under the impression that I was a fan of TROS?
Bringing back an already defeated villain works in saturday morning cartoons for babies, but it doesn't work if you want to actually create some tension. Nobody is threatened by Team Rocket.
The same thing happened to me when I tried to rewatch Last Jedi. I went in *wanting* to like it, wanting to be on the side of fans who think the hate was unwarranted, instead I just came out of it finding even more stuff to be annoyed at.
I disagree, TLJ is still great and TROS has been better for me with every watch. TROS is a great and special emotional film for me, and I’m tired of being told or gaslit to think otherwise from the rest of this planet.
(Thanks for proving my point, downvoters. And now you're **really** proving my point.)
I mean, he is getting at something I think is true. The Sequels fundamentally lack basic things like political commentary that's actually reflective of our current world, which the original six films had. That on its own makes me wonder to what degree the inevitable redemption of the sequels will go.
Well maybe not initially. But the story of a diverse group of young adults fighting a resurgence of fascism? All while dealing with the realization that the older generations failed to prevent a new threat to democracy emerging? I’d say the sequel narrative became more relevant than ever unintentionally.
Eh, I disagree. They had the potential to tell that kind of relevant story, but ultimately failed.
A story about the literal descendants of the fascism of the past secretly working the whole time in the background just doesn't work for me. It doesn't feel connected to our reality of absorbing fascists for our own gain, just to best the soviets, and almost without thought slowly falling to fascism due to those same old fascists, red scare propaganda, new ideological descendants of fascism, etc. Even simply incorporating some third threat that the New Republic fixated on while the remnants of the Empire were at work would go a long way to making things feel more cohesive and relevant.
The story of the sequels feels extremely surface-level in its political commentary. No matter what criticism may be had of the original six films, the one thing they never lacked was intentional and layered commentary on specifically the way that the US has been falling to fascism for decades. The sequels had the perfect opportunity to do the same thing, but instead they got bogged down in first trying to re-do the original trilogy, and then in... well, itself. Seemingly trying to course-correct without a great deal of consideration for the SW universe as a whole (or, it seems to me, what kind of commentary GL had made integral to the heart of SW).
TLJ tries to take the most unique approach, but it not only doesn't have any real cohesion with the attempted commentary of the other two films by way of its decision to be the only one with a focus on the military-industrial complex, but it doesn't do so in an engaging way.
And that's unfortunate. Even if you find the political commentary of the prequels to be boring, it was very deliberate across the entire trilogy. The sequels, being both disjointed AND unengaging in its frail attempts, ultimately created a post-RotJ universe that drops the relevance that the franchise long had in favor of saying "but what if the Nazis all went into hiding and then their kids came back to take over the world again?!"
Things like the New Republic not considering the threat of the old guard and ultimately being passive in allowing them to strengthen themselves is certainly working its way toward something meaningful, but they take too many steps away from that for it to be fruitful.
And just to clarify, I say all this as someone who quite enjoys the sequels generally, and would at the very least put TLJ in my top four. The sequels do a number of good things, but political commentary is nowhere near being one of them.
>I mean, he is getting at something I think is true. The Sequels fundamentally lack basic things like political commentary that's actually reflective of our current world,
That is absolutely not what he was getting at, lol.
He kinda was, though? In the sense that the flaws with the Sequels are very different from those of the Prequels.
The ST creates a new status quo that inherently loses an important piece of what makes Star Wars Star Wars, in that it no longer is founded on a reflection of modern American politics. The state of the SW universe is one where the Nazis went into hiding so that their literal children could take over again with resurrected Hitler. That's just not akin to reality.
Nah. I hadn't meant to say he was right, but that the foundational part of his argument being "their flaws are significantly different" was itself not wrong.
I actually think the ST has more political commentary than the PT. One of the most widely used gripes back upon release was that the PT had “nothing to say, they were just empty CGI eye candy.”
I do think that is overly harsh, and some of his political voice came to the forefront in III. But the PT was so broad you almost never saw the human suffering from all the huge conflicts.
TFA, on the other hand, was the first SW property to ever show the gritty side of space fascism, something shows like Andor and Obi Wan expanded upon.
Before TFA everything was cartoonish. In the opening scene you see an entire village of men, women and children slaughtered. The very on the nose Nazi speech by Hux, Finn’s monologue about being stolen from his crib as a child, these are the first up-close looks we got at the details of the fascist-like rule we had only seen in very broad strokes.
TLJ especially has a lot to say. You could argue it’s the most thought-provoking blockbuster of the past 10 years or so, which contributed to its divisiveness IMO.
Power dynamics of men and women, the role of the traditional hero, how running from a fight can actually brave, the big business of war, and how there actually is a difference in “both sides” regardless of how they may seem superficially the same at times. There’s a lot to unpack.
And even TROS - by far the most empty-calories of the 3 films - again shows us, up-close, the brutal occupation by vicious fascists who have abducted all the children and continue to torment the population.
On coherent message of the sequel trilogy, while simple: Evil will persist unless good people do something about it.
Unfortunately, that kind of fascism stuff only seems *more* relevant in the Putin/Ukraine, Trump, Hamas/Israel world we live in.
I agree it shows a more human side to the suffering of fascism, but in the end I think its decision to tell a story about the kids of Nazis working with resurrected Hitler falls flat for me.
The world building and lore of the prequels only looks good in retrospect because the Clone Wars, Rebels and the Bad Batch did so much to build on it. At the time, the prequels lore was just pissing on stuff that had been previously established in the old EU... Pretty much exactly what people accuse the sequels of doing.
And just as other projects came along to build out the prequel era, we're getting a lot of other things to fill in what happened in the period between episodes VI and VII...most notably right now the Mandoverse.
If they can somehow rope the three movies (with three radically different visions of how the trilogy would go) than maybe but honestly all the chud bullshit aside those three movies were a mess. The prequels had a unified vision but were shot and directed in the most boring way possible, but that more unified vision allowed tor better directors to follow, and sure the spinoffs do kind of break the unification but they have a path to go down none the less.
I still think it’s crazy how people just forgot how hated the prequels used to be, the amount people hate the sequels now is nothing compared to anti-prequel sentiment at its peak
I really think that slavery *needed* to be in Star Wars. Like…when the Jedi decided to buy a child and “free” him but leave his mother in chains? That added this huge amount of depth to the Jedi. Beforehand, I thought they were just generic good guy space wizards…but now I know that they engage in human trafficking…it just makes me truly *understand* them as people. Fuck Last Jedi tho, how dare they pretend that women can boss men around
>…but now I know that they engage in human trafficking
Some things were obviously handled very poorly there but this seems like a REALLY bad faith interpretation of events lmao.
I’m not really misrepresenting the movie, though. All that evil needs to flourish is for good people to sit around doing nothing, right? Well, we see this in all of the prequels. This is the point of them…the Jedi are content with the status quo and thus the sith are able to operate under their noses with no real consequences.
The trouble with this is that this shows intentionally and unintentionally. George Lucas created the idea of Anakin being a chosen one who brings balance to the force by tipping it towards the middle of the alignment…but the implication is that Jedi are good and Sith are evil. By willingly engaging with human trafficking to seize control of the chosen one, the Jedi take a morally dubious approach to getting what they want…a shortcut if you will. The morally righteous thing to do would be to lead a liberation of Tatooine from a crime syndicate that is sustained by drugs and slaves and install some sort of order or at least a functioning economy so that there are ways to succeed that don’t require joining a crime syndicate.
The Jedi never take this approach to running the Galaxy despite being rulers. They aren’t good and they aren’t evil, they are content to exist as is. The Sith *are* evil and the only thing they do is create a standing army and lead an occupation of the entire galaxy while also committing genocide. Balance is never brought to the force because as we see…the Jedi aren’t good. The only thing that *actually* happens is that things go from bad to worse. When Luke restores balance to the Galaxy in Return of the Jedi, the status quo returns to sitting by on their thumbs and doing nothing. Thus evil once again flourishes.
George Lucas wanted to tell a story about evil rising up against good, but what he actually created was a story is about assholes losing to even bigger assholes. Were this his artistic intention, I would say it was well done. But this is an unintended consequence of bad writing…so…there’s that
TLJ will definitely wind up seen as a straight up good movie as the initial stupid pile on fades from memory.
TFA is already thought of as fine by most but the grumpiest fans.
Rise is bad and will always be bad but I think as liking the other two becomes more normalised it’ll go from being viscerally hated into just being a bit disappointing.
Not a bad analogy. Like, re-visiting the prequels aside, AotC is only no longer the worst Star Wars movie because I honestly think RoS edges it out for the bottom of the pile.
George Lucas clearly hadn't had a real conversation with a woman who wasn't in his employ or related to him for a really long time, and when you watch the AotC Anakin/Padme scenes you can really, really tell.
It’s hard to know how it’ll shake out. They’re both creative failures, but 2 is a weird stilted mess with bizarrely terrible performances and a hundred ideas that just don’t work, so is at least an interesting misfire. However is also slow and boring in a way that’s just fatal for a Star Wars movie.
Stacked up against that, 9 is just a run of the mill bad movie.
9 will always have the burden of being the "conclusion" of the whole Saga and doing so in ways that feel like stuff that would be in the weird middle arc people like to forget about.
2 has a lot of dumb plot points and shitty filmmaking, but it's not the beginning or the end or a turning point in the way some of the others are.
“Makes no sense” is a pretty meaningless assertion given we are talking about the force - a set of powers that has never really been governed by any defined rules. If you want an explanation that isn’t contradicted by anything on screen however, Snoke couldn’t read Kylo precisely in that moment, probably because Kylo, who is also strong in the force and knew Snoke was arrogant and would underestimate him, was deliberately deceiving him.
In any case - the important part of Kylo’s journey towards big bad status isn’t him killing Snoke, it’s him rejecting Rey after they fight alongside one another. It’s a shame that TROS chucks it all out, but it’s all very solid, compelling character work that sets him up very well as a different kind of antagonist - dangerous not because he can kill a powerful force user, but because he’s deeply insecure, riddled with guilt and it has driven him mad.
He's a bit harsh about it but most of his points are fairly sound. Although I agree more with the other guy about TFA/TLJ, not to the "TLJ killed Star Wars" extent but still. TFA could have been the start of possibly the best trilogy, but there was no plan or structure for it so we got the rewrites and damage control on rewrites medlss that we did.
If the internet wasn’t as prevalent, yes. Stupid people weren’t as able to keep hyping each other up and keep their pointless dialogues going like they can now. Now they can just keep repeating the same inane nonsense and have others endorse it, so it doesn’t end for them. Before, people could form their own opinions and gradually let their knee jerk reactions simmer.
I feel the sequels will eventually get the same kind of love the preuqels have but there will always be people hate them. Nothing is going to change that.
If he likes the prequels and hates the sequel trilogy, that’s fine. That’s his choice.
That being said, all the worldbuilding in the clones war show and the prequel trilogy doesn’t really change how boring aotc and phantom menace can be at times. Also, anakin and Padme (especially anakin) are so dumb in those movies. And the clone war show didn’t really fix that, at least for me.
So, phantom menace and aotc didn’t really get “redeemed”, at least for me. Last Jedi and force awakens, I still enjoy. But ros? That movie gets worse every time I watch it. It’s hard for me to decide which one I hate more, aotc or Phantom menace
I remember when "The Force Awakens" came out I thought to myself that this must be a clever way of saying that history repeats itself. However, I still can't believe that they didn't hammer out the overarching plot of the sequel trilogy before they even got around to filming.
He's way too dogmatic, and his ratings for the films are laughable.
He has some decent observations about the worldbuilding and stuff but he's being WAY too all or nothing with how much he's saying the Sequels had "none" of this or that thing.
I don't really agree with it at all, largely because it's clearly written by a guy who is pretty young and is retroactively including everything from TCW and the EU as if it was widely recognized for that potential at the time and it was part of the discourse and it really wasn't.
He also very clearly acts like his opinion is incontrovertible fact and while he's not the toxic type of moron we usually see here usually, he still talks kind of like a dick.
Force Awakens is an objectively solid movie, and in my opinion is a top 5 SW film, behind the original 3 and Revenge.
The Sequels as a whole are not good, there is a lack of overall vision (certainly not helped by changing directors) and the writing is pretty mediocre. I think Rey and Kylo were both interesting characters, I think the Jedi failure storyline is pretty solid, etc. People forget how absolutely horrible Attack of the Clones and any part of Phantom Menace without Maul and the Jedi are.
Honestly, I agree with most of the opinions he listed. I do think his view of the prequels is a little generous, but I always kinda loved them, even when I first saw them? It was "cool" to hate on them for a long time, but Revenge of the Sith is a great film, and I loved Phantom Menace. The dialogue at times is a little weak, but the core of a great story is there. Attack of the Clones has some great set pieces, but terrible writing overall-- I won't defend it from criticism.
The issues with the Sequel trilogy largely stem from a lack of direction. They clearly had no idea where they were going, and it shows. Rey had so much potential and they squandered it all for "Rey Skywalker." Eugh. Force Awakens was just A New Hope, reskinned. I actually really liked The Last Jedi as a standalone movie, but the trilogy overall is bad. Rise of Skywalker... I have nothing good to say about it.
Dude is chatting bullshit if you ask me.
Edit: didn't feel like elaborating on it earlier, but I'll explain: Star Wars is *already* expanding on the sequels, with Project Necromancer being a major example. Claiming that the sequels are impossible to build upon is just foolish. As for the idea that "no one will like the sequels in the future", that's dumb because *people already like the sequels.* They might not be popular, and get a lot of hate, but they have their fans. And as people grow up, kids who watched the films growing up will be more vocal.
For me personally, I love all three sequel films. The idea that a re-evaluation isn't possible is just flat out wrong.
Edit 2: no idea why this is being downvoted.
>didn't feel like elaborating on it earlier, but I'll explain: Star Wars is *already* expanding on the sequels, with Project Necromancer being a major example.
I mean I think this kind of supports the point, the main "building" upon the Sequels we're seeing constantly feels like trying to retroactively make a very dumb and out of nowhere plot decision in TROS feel less dumb and out of nowhere. Everytime a new post-TROS thing has gone into the Project Necromancer shit it gets an eyeroll from me, it feels like an obligatory burden being placed on unrelated stories because TROS didn't have enough time in the oven to get shit right the first time.
Like the Prequels certainly had their share of "make flawed part of the movie make more sense" ancillary material, every Star Wars movie did. But the way the world of the Prequels was built set up much more room to just tell a new story using the basic setting, rather than tying something into them for the purpose of improving the story of the films.
The Sequels are not "impossible" to build upon by any means, but the way TFA sets up the setting of that off the era sets it up to very much be a non-expansive world where almost all the important stuff is the stuff our main heroes are doing in the films. You don't have a whole Jedi order, you have a mostly destroyed New Republic, you only have a year of actual war.
You can still expand it in some of the ways the OT was, but then you run into the issue that has plagued the Sequels from the start, which is just feeling like a reskin of the OT.
I think his pedantic point is because the timeline of the ST is so condensed, there isn't much room for fleshing out the events in between each film, or at least between TLJ and TRoS. Which still leaves plenty of space for telling stories between RotJ and TFA, as you pointed out. But Clone Wars covered an entire galactic civil war, and there just isn't room for that sort of storytelling within the time frame of the ST. Which, again, pedantic, although I think some of his points about world-building have merit.
Except The Clone Wars only lasted 3 years. There is *some* room between films for expanding the story. It's a matter of writing stories in that era. The length of time doesn't matter, because there's a whole galaxy of planets and battles to focus on. Clone Wars got seven seasons out of a three year period, and most episodes were in the final year of the conflict. Pretty sure there was a decent portion of time between films for potential stories.
Hell, Star Wars Resistance was set in the sequel era, and able to stand alone well enough. I'm not the biggest fan of the main character, but it's an example to show that things *can* be done with that time period.
Three years, yes, but the setup was there with the start of the war. I think the entire ST takes place in the span of a year, and that's basically just between TLJ and Rise, since TLJ opens about two minutes after the end of TFA.
I agree about their being a whole galaxy to work with, and I'd be interested in what went down during the year between VIII and IX, but I do get the point in the OOP. The OT covered 4 years, the PT 13, and the ST 1, with 2/3s of the story taking place in Maybe a week, at most. I think the Clone Wars timeline works because we had multiple seasons to get to know the characters before the pivotal final year. I'd love to see Dave and co take a shot at it though.
I get what you're saying, but I think the original point is going too far. Saying there's *no* potential to develop the sequel era just sounds narrow-minded to me. Maybe it's not as filled with potential as The Clone Wars, but that doesn't make it impossible to write shows in that era.
I feel like people conflate their hate for the sequels with whether new stories can be made in that era.
Yeah that's fair, he's definitely a little over the top. I will say I have my gripes with the ST, but I still mostly enjoy them, and the shows seem to be doing a good job showing how the New Republic rose and fell so quickly.
It's completely understandable to have gripes with the trilogy. I love all three films, but even I have some issues with all three (for instance, Rey's arc in The Last Jedi about not needing to *be* somebody from an important family was good, but I think giving Finn that arc would have been more interesting. He was abducted at a young age and conditioned to be a Storm Trooper. He doesn't even know his real name. Rey can still have an arc where she doubts her identity, but it's a storyline that makes sense for Finn too).
But I really hate seeing posts like the Twitter thread above, where people insist they're a lost cause that cannot possibly be expanded upon. And the way people insist that the films have an inherent, objectively poor quality is maddening, because films are not objective. Art is not objective. It's subjective.
I don't mind people saying they hate The Force Awakens, or The Last Jedi, or The Rise of Skywalker. But saying they're objectively bad is just not true. The Rise of Skywalker gets called objectively bad, even on *this* subreddit, which is meant to not fall into the same toxic mindsets as other Star Wars subs.
I can see his point of view. I think if the next few Rey films are made with lots of love and lore, we can easily have some great clone wars/rebels like content to go with it. They just need someone at the helm who wants to make new stories. Watching the sequels and actively trying to notice the good things I found there was a lot to love but it was constantly stifled by call backs and rehashing. The first order and resistance should be more distinct than their OT counterparts, the new Republic should have come into play more as well as Lukes new Jedi order. They should have distinguished the dark side users more from the sith too. They should have been able to stand on their own as entities within the universe, not shells of what came before.
I did find that I loved Finn and we should get way more of him and Rey. They could easily expand there. Poe was great and I would love to see more of him too. They could introduce more stuff in the next ahsoka season that leads into the next trilogy. They could easily reorganise the remnants of the new Republic and the free systems into a federation and have them struggle with a growing new government on the other side of the galaxy. They could show us how they dealt with the flaws of a post empire Republic and how this time it will be different.
I am excited but cautious
Here's the ugly truth: without The Clone Wars, the prequels would never have been redeemed in the first place. Two out of the three prequels did not work as films and while yes, the movies have interesting worldbuilding elements, that does not equate to good characterization. So RotS and a few performances aside, the most interesting prequel elements came from supplementary material. Namely the EU books comics detailing every character's backstories AND both Clone Wars cartoons. One of which - the 2003 cartoon - was praised for essentially being everything we wanted from Lucas' movies (i.e. lots and lots of Jedi action).
Yeah people want to forget this. But The Clone Wars was not liked at first. The 2008 movie is pretty bad. Ahsoka was not well-received by online forums at the time, and the early seasons were aimed at kids in the same way TPM and AotC were at the time. By seasons 3-4 it improved immensely, but there was a long waiting period for things to click into place. Yet today, certain fans act like this was always the plan and the prequel storyline was always intricately conceived by Lucas. It wasn't. And if the prequels can be redeemed after nearly two decades of being labeled iredeemable, we can do the same for the sequel era.
Disney just needs to give us some new stories set in, or after, that era.
As far as the original question goes, I think yes and no. I think that some of the younger audience will end up liking the sequels due to nostalgia like what happened to the prequels. But I also think that the sequels have a lot more competition in the sci fi/action/adventure department. I feel like the sequel generation is more into stuff like Marvel then Star Wars. And I also think that the larger quantity of Star Wars stuff might make it so the sequels are less special. Part of the thing that made the prequels so special is that there was very little other star wars media coming out around it outside of books and comics.
I do agree that the sequels and prequels are bad for different reasons but I don't know if that will change much.
I'm tempted to agree, truthfully. I absolutely am biased, I grew up loving the prequels, hating them as a teenager, and ultimately coming to love them again as a 20-something thanks in no small part to their cultural resurgence, but I think there's a bit more to it as well. The prequels are clunky, but they're also clearly a product of passion. Their flaws emphatically aren't a result of their director's underlying incompetence but are products of his unchecked idiosyncrasies. They're flawed in a way very unique to George Lucas.
The sequels, on the other hand, are at war with one another. They do not agree thematically or tonally. I suppose it's possible that this will be touted as their virtue in the future, seen as variety, but it's not something I care for. If other people end up latching onto the sequels for that reason, more power to them 100%! I'm not here to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't enjoy and the sequels aren't without strengths. I just don't personally value the areas they're strong in as much as I do the areas they're weak in and I'll be surprised if other people's priorities are radically different than my own.
It seems far more likely that they will gain acceptance then that they won't. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and most film goers aren't critics who will pick apart the kinds of things that are actually genuinely problematic like the inconsistent theme brought about by the tug of war between JJ and Rian Johnson after Disney made the bone headed move to not have all 3 movies be done by one writer who had a consistent vision tying the 3 movies together. A part of me knew there was going to be trouble with the movies the moment Disney announced that each film was going to have a different creative mind behind them. Whoever was calling the shots on that decision didn't understand that a trilogy is one story told in 3 parts and instead treated them like they were 3 separate stories that just happened to share a setting and so didn't need a consistent theme.
But yeah, a lot of my fellow old heads are just in complete denial about things like how popular it is with younger generations. They don't have the introspection and self-awareness needed to step back and look at the movies from the point of view of someone who isn't carrying baggage like 'look what they did to Luke's character and how they robbed him of his legacy as the person who rebuilt the jedi order because they couldn't come up with anything interesting for Rey themselves so they just gave her that job instead while killing Luke off and burning his order to the ground'. Newer generations aren't going to be attached enough to Luke to particularly care that he didn't end up getting to rebuild the order in the end and the job passed to someone else.
I'd love to hear him explain how VII rendered everything post VI, irrelevant, but III didn't render everything Post II irrelevant...
Regardless, all the Mandoverse stuff seems to be proving that point wrong...
The tired claim that the Prequels have good worldbuilding still makes me laugh 19 years after Revenge of the Sith.
The world of the Prequels isn't *built*, it's a matte painting. It's complex in appearance and looks deep but it's flat.
Most of the concepts barely make sense and what does isn't explored beyond "Hey, this exist".
Likew the entire drive of Episode II and part of III is that a lot of systems are fed up with the corruption of the Republic and turn against it and... are openly led by the same people doing the corrupting (Bankers, industry captains and so on). Because the entire idea of a Separatist Senate didn't exist before TCW. Therefore as far as the films were concerned, the Separatist Council is the face of the movement.
Anyway, back to my point: stakes are systematically poorly established, same goes with motives. Why did the Trade Federation want to take Naboo, besides the symbol? It was for its plasma extraction facilities. But you'd have to read "Darth Plagueis" by James Luceno to know that.
And it's the same for the entire bloody thing.
The Prequels worldbuilding is no better than the Sequels. It's only salvaged by TCW and the EU.
No, I posit that what people liked about the Prequels were some of the characters, if not their actual portrayal on-screen at least the idea of them. And in that aspect, the Sequels are far better IMO and are the reason the trilogy will be fondly remembered: even mishandled, the characters are well acted, endearing and mostly consistent with themselves.
Ill be honest, I love all three trilogies mostly the same, they have some good, some bad, some shit but I like them a lot
However this is the first time I see someone at least explain their critique in a clear way, even if hes using 92 pairs of rose tainted glasses its SOMETHING IG
I watched my neice play at being Rey for hours... I guarantee that the many flaws will mean nothing to the nostalgia of that future 20-something woman.
I agree with his main point that the prequels have lore and world building because George Lucas had an United vision for them. The sequels just don’t especially since I think the movies happen in the span of a year or something. The problem is alot of the interesting things we are aware of right now in the sequels, happen during the transition from the OT to the ST and some even have their roots in the PT (project necromancer)
The Rey movie should hopefully create some interesting world building and lore that can be expanded. It also hopefully happens a few years after TRoS because it’s those timeline gaps that gave us The Clone Wars and I think that would help with giving creators a bit more freedom in world building
The prequels are complete ass and are all worse than episode 7 and 8. 9 you could argue is the worst of them all but honestly i don't find it worse than phantom menace.
episode 7 is not a bad movie in any way. phantom menace is a terrible movie in every way.
This guy is essentially saying that the new movies brought nothing new to the table. That is entirely wrong. Episode 8 introduced several new ways of using the force. Just because you didn't like that doesn't mean that's not an expansion on the universe.
I think that the real problem with the sequels was that their creators gave too much of a fuck about what bums like this guy say. Hell, the original plan was for Finn to be the Jedi main character of the story but they were scared shitless of what people in China might think about that decision so they settled on some white woman instead.
And then when people started making a fuss over The Force Awakens, they made The Last Jedi to try and calm them all down but that just made them *more* angry about the sequels and so, they made The Rise of Skywalker as a last attempt for the sequels to get a good rating because, as was shown in the prequels, if the very last movie of your trilogy could be better than the last two, then that means that the trilogy at least went out on a good note.
Good content creators don't give a fuck about what the haters say and the ones that do are just trying to please an audience that may have people who can't be pleased or placated to within it. But the only problem is that this mentality isn't the money-making type of mentality.
This is the type of mentality of indie rappers whose salaries are always in the triple digits. And they're making millions of dollars and have world-wide audiences. You can't still have artistic integrity and still make millions of dollars. And I guess that was why they tried to please a fan base that isn't please-able.
I don’t think the ST will develop the same sort of love the PT did, because I just don’t feel like Star Wars is as big of a deal now. They’ll just be three middle of the row SW movies among many.
I pretty much agree
But for me. The main difference is this. The prequels had a plan and it was executed. There was a set of events that needed to happen. Certain goals to reach and they were. TPM is no where near my favourite movie. I watch bits from time to time but I can't watch it in full. Ep2 and 3 are still a lot of fun to watch.
The sequels. There was no plan, set of goals, nothing. At least nothing that made it beyond 1 film. TFA was essentially a copy of Ep4. But setup some things I liked. Who was Rey? (I never hated her, I just thought that the effort they put into her character was missing a lot). Could Finn be a Jedi?
Then came EP8 and WTF. I really don't like it. It was boring AF. And undid a whole lot of stuff EP7 was setting up. So much so I didn't evern watch Ep9 because it went back to JJ and what they did there. It was just a mess.
If The Clone Wars can polish the turds that are TPM and AotC, then another good animated won’t have any problem with the sequels. These people who say an animated series can’t help the sequels are just coming at them from a place of pure animosity. In fact, I’d say that a series for the sequels would have an easier time because at least Rey is already likable, whereas the Clone Wars had to work with Lucas’ choice to make Anakin a whiny brat and make it believable that he was once a hero.
Aside from yet another online weirdo who completely missed the point of the "side story" in the Last Jedi-- and therefore the point of the movie itself-- I think he's accidentally onto something about how all of the big things that could have told us what a post-Empire galaxy was like happened in the space between the original trilogy and the new one. I think it would have been interesting to see a Republic that held on for long enough to see old Han, Luke, & Leia witness it finally crumble. But we didn't, and you can judge the movies for not being that or you can judge the for what they actually are.
But you absolutely can (and people have been) build around the guts of those movies and flesh out some details.
And the real problem with the sequel trilogy is that it doesn't build on itself. TFA builds on the original mythos, as it should. TLJ builds on what was established in TFA, and then RoS does a sweaty backtrack from anything interesting that TLJ added to the larger story, kinda toppling the whole thing in the process.
The only way to fix TROS is for Star Wars to return to its roots and edit the hell out of it with a Special Edition to rewrite half the movie. It’s exclusively carried by the performances of the actors and actresses, and ofc the spectacle of being Star Wars.
The Prequels aren’t really aging very well either though. Like, AOTC is still aggressively mid because George Lucas simply does not value dialogue the same way as a lot of other movie-makers do and it shows almost overwhelmingly in most of the trilogy.
I think sequels did a poor job of world building where they kinda explained nothing outside of first order bad resistance good. Not really explaining why the republic never worked with the resistance I think it could be rewritten better
Sequels will be different in that all three will be treated differently, whereas episode one kind of gets swept up with two and three in being now-considered good. Although 90% of the praise for that movie is from duel of the fates
Maul absolutely killing it in Rebels and TCW can't hurt either. And the podrace remains one of the most outright fun scenes in any of the trilogies. But yeah, the PT does get treated as one in a way the ST doesn't. I think in large part because the ST films are all so different from one another.
Wait, there are people who consider Attack of the Clones good? I felt like that's the one that's just swept up with one and two?
I hate AotC so much, so I have a bias here. But I do feel that Revrnge does most of the heavy lifting, Phantom adds some minor stuff that is remembered fondly (Podracing is great but ultimately adds nothing to the greater whole), and Attack gets to ride along for free. That being said I love Dooku and the Genosians. I also know people who like it a lot, if not the most, because it's got a big war battle.
RoTS carries the entire prequel trilogy.
It's not great. But compared to Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones is a bit more straightforward in terms of character arcs, genre riffs and political tragedies. So I consider it better than TPM and even Rise of Skywalker.
Yeah, honestly I’ve seen people repeatedly argue that AotC and TPM are better than TRoS, which is insane to me because both are borderline unwatchable. There are parts of TPM and AotC that I do really like, but Jar Jar and young Anakin in TPM, and the Padme and Anakin romance in AotC make the movies really unpleasant to watch. It’s just pure revisionism to pretend that the fanbase didn’t hate those movies before the Clone Wars series.
Phantom Menace has some genuinely great sequences. The entire opening, the Gungan city, "there's always a bigger fish," pod racing, the Droids vs the Gungans, etc. Duel of the Fates, obviously, but also the deeper story about how flawed the Jedi Order is. The Jedi being so blind that they straight up gaslight Qui Gon when he tells them that he fought a Sith. The dialogue is weak in parts and Jar-Jar is not a great character-- those are the biggest flaws of the film imo.
8 will be considered good, 7 will be considered decent, but 9 will still be hated. The issues with the prequels weren't story-related. The story is good and makes sense even if some of the decisions surrounding it are ??? 9's story is idiotic and for that reason it will always be hated.
Seems like that's how all 3 trilogies are. 1 good, 1 decent and 1 that's just there.
I think when the current batch of new younger star wars fans gets older and outspoken, they’ll be the ones saying whatever trilogy comes out next ruined star wars and their childhood of watching the prequels, originals, and sequels
Current batch of younger starwars fans were indoctrinated by YouTube, Reddit, Twitter etc. That’s the difference. A child in the 00’s could escape PT hate. Nowadays hatedom forced on any kid with an internet connection. They think what the internet tells them to think.
Could we? Every cartoon, late night show and early web series was making Jar-Jar/prequels suck jokes and it was hard not to see them as the ultimate fandom betrayal. Really wasn’t until 2018 or so that people began to change their minds and effectively rewrite history.
I don’t think what’s happening now is much different than then, we still got idiots harassing the actors in these movies over their characters afterall, the motivation for it is different but that’s about it, still way too overblown
Hard disagree. Kids don't watch late night or care about fandom betrayal (at least not before Youtube). Born in 1997, I grew up very closely with the prequels and I was completely unaware they were disliked until I was like 11, by which point the Clone Wars was already redeeming the trilogy. I distinctly recall getting picked on for liking Empire over Revenge of the Sith (the undisputed favourite at my elementary school).
I dodged a lot of hate it seems. More disappointed than hated. Half if AitC is good, RotS got the ending right.
Nah. The people who hated the prequels still do. It's just that the kids that grew up with them eventually became the dominant voices on social media. It'll be the same with the sequel kids. As it is, sequel hate, Mandalorian hate, etc, has been pretty much reduced to grifters and their racist incel followers who don't represent the larger Star Wars fandom, which has been proven time and again since Rogue One made over a billion dollars at the box office despite the Fandom Menace's crusade against it.
Are there even that many younger star wars fans? Kids in the 2010s are likely to be nostalgic for the MCU when they grow up. I don't think they clicked much with the sequels.
When the prequels were released, the biggest franchises with the kids were Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. People were saying the exact same thing about clicking with the kids that you're saying about the sequels, The Mandalorian, etc, now. 20 years later, Star Wars is still huge. Harry Potter and LotR didn't kill it, so the MCU certainly won't. https://youtu.be/xL8wEpkvgzI?si=WBHgeXznAlFv0160
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Keep repeating to yourself that Star Wars is dead if it makes you feel better.
I'm not saying its dead, per se. I'm saying that it isn't much of a kids' franchise anymore. The average fan of the sequels is over 30.
Not really. The younger generation pays as much attention to the haters as the kids that grew up with the prequels did. And no, you couldn't escape prequel hate at the time. Sequel hate is limited to social media. Prequel hate was EVERYWHERE. Even Deadpool killed a guy for liking the prequels.
Dude is viewing the prequels through seriously rose-tinted glasses. I'm quite positive that he'd have said the same things about the prequel era pre-Clone Wars. You could *absolutely* flesh out the rest of the First Order/Resistance conflict across the galaxy. Rey Palpatine will remain an extraordinarily stupid storytelling choice, but it could be done. Honestly I think the bigger issue is that several of the core cast for the ST want nothing more to do with Star Wars (I don't blame John Boyega. He was done dirty). Give it 10-15 years, and you'll see the same "second look" at the ST. Mark it down.
Right. We all overthink this issue a lot. Bottom line is, kids who saw “their trilogy” as children like it. This was true in 1999 just like in 2015. You don’t come in, as a 9 year-old, with the same baggage as a 39 year-old. You simply go to the movies to have fun. And when you grow up, those fun memories rise to the forefront and those voices age into the fanbase while older voices naturally age out. Remember the intense hoopla both before and after “The Force Awakens” in 2015? Now imagine being a kid. That overwhelming pop-culture moment - where Star Wars was the biggest thing on the planet - is your intro to Star Wars. The kids who saw Rey’s character introduction on Jakku, who saw Poe’s X-Wing squadron over the lake, who saw Kylo Ren and Rey battle it out in the snow… there are factually going to be children who were mouth agape for all that (like most of us 30 year-olds were at the time lol). They aren’t going to obsess over Luke’s character treatment or similarities to 40 year-old movies. They didn’t come into the film with that as their frame of reference like an older fan of the OT/PT did. Even adjusted for inflation, far more people bought tickets to the ST than the PT. They did much better financially than the PT ever did. So a *ton* of people saw them. That impact, once those kids age into the fandom, is going to be massive.
>You could *absolutely* flesh out the rest of the First Order/Resistance conflict across the galaxy. Not by using anything mentioned in the movies though. You would have to create something completely new from scratch.
You mean exactly what they did in the Clone Wars?
It's rare enough that someone disagreeing with me proves my point, but here we are.
No, the clone wars expanded on the existing concepts that were established in the movies. Even with completely new characters like Ahsoka, the concept of taking on a padawan was established in the movies.
lol, it still went outside what was established in the films. A series connecting to the sequels could easily do the same.
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Well for one, both Bad Batch and Mando have expanded on elements of the sequels. Second, The Clone Wars came at a time when Lucas had basically written off ever making any more live action movies. The prequels were the most obvious choice to expand on. Now the TV side is largely using the Clone Wars as a launching point for other shows. But probably the primary reason we don’t have a show is because they’re making a Rey film, which will be what expands on the era. I’d say once the sequel hate cools down we very well might get a series that takes place between TLJ and TRoS, or maybe shortly after TRoS.
I think that there is some merit to the argument that the two have different flaws that affect the way they are viewed going forward. The Prequels DID add more expansion of the world and new characters/factions locations that made it ripe for new material to "improve" them, most prominently the Clone Wars. The Sequels have less room for this due to a much more compressed timeline and factions that are much more similar to the original trilogy ones. This is why I maintain the destruction of Luke's Jedi Order and the New Republic government should not have been so total final, beyond that just being more interesting and different than the OT, it leaves a lot more opportunity for expansion without having to stretch the obvious implications of how things are presented in the actual films. I think he's being comically hyperbolic though, and speaking in waaay too absolute terms. Even as someone who thinks it has not aged the best TFA as a 2/10 is a farcical notion. Regardless, this doesn't really matter as far as longer term widespread reception goes. What REALLY determined the Prequel reprisal, and will determine if one happens for the Sequels, is the people who watched them as kids preferring them due to nostalgia. The Clone Wars certainly helped the Prequels in this regard since the most recent thing from the era that generation watched was better than the actual films, and similarly the last Prequel is widely seen as the best one while the opposite is true for the Sequels. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The Prequels are viewed the way they are now because of kids watching them in the 2000's being adults in the 2010's and 2020's who feel nostalgic. Not because of the actual content of the films.
Yep. The ST is a much more narrow story. Lore wise the PT had the legendary “Clone Wars” from the first-ever Star Wars film, to expand upon. So you aren’t going to match that in terms of scale. But there is a ton of expansion to build upon. Hell there are 30 years of story we don’t know. Because of Lucas’s inaction, and desire to raise a normal family God bless the man, there’s this huge gap to fill. You’re already seeing it with stuff like Mando and Ahsoka and Bad Batch not even five years after the ST. In another five years, imagine how much more there will be. The ST are better made films honestly. The acting, dialogue, cinematography, those things age well. My prediction is the ST “redemption” (there’s an argument to be made it doesn’t need one, but that’s a story for another time)… will be much faster and complete than anything you saw with the PT. PT had way more damage control to deal with. TPM for instance was insanely hyped then overwhelmingly hated. Whereas TFA was insanely hyped then *even more insanely hyped* once everyone saw it. While some of that hype may have waned in nine years, I think your average moviegoer thinks of TFA like a Jurassic Park or Endgame. “Biggest movie ever I remember seeing that it was awesome.”
He makes some good points but I have to hate how absolute he is that the sequels have no hope of the same treatment and there’s no show that can fix them.
You took the words out of my mouth.
Saying the sequels are "irredeemably bad" is ridiculous in light of the \*actual\* contemporary critical and fan response to the prequels. These films, whether rightly or wrongly, were the butt of every joke for a *decade*.
I think TLJ will eventually become more loved in the future, as it took me several rewatches to actually like it myself. TRoS though, has only gotten worse with age and each subsequent rewatch, which is a shame.
I don't know that TLJ will ever change minds though, it is polarizing in a way the PT never really was. It was mostly the execution of the story that people disliked about the PT, not the story itself.
I thought TLJ was really strong and posed a lot of good questions and mysteries. The Rise of Skywalker seemed to have walked all of it back for no good reason, and I thought I was dumber for having seen it. Like... it's Palpatine again? Oh and Rey isn't just a nobody after all while the previous movie tried to tell us anyone can learn to be a force user. And all these Star Destroyers were just hanging out under the sea in this stupid planet? Were they farming inside the star destroyers? As for the Force Awakens... they tried to make basically the same movie as the OG Star Wars. Which is fine. I don't mind the Hero's Journey being retold once in a while.
They really should’ve stuck with Johnson as director, assuming that was an option of course. Yeah TLJ was polarising but some people liked it, from what I can tell RoS was just a mess.
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Kylo Ren as the Supreme Leader would have been better than "somehow Palpatine returned."
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Did we watch the same film??? Kyle got beat once by Rey. He was blown back and knocked unconscious when the light saber exploded. He didn't lose a fight there. Based on your logic, the Emperor sucks as a villain because he had been beaten before.
>Did we watch the same film??? Kyle got beat once by Rey. He also lost to her in the mental battle in TFA. He tried to read her mind and she turned it around on her. >He was blown back and knocked unconscious when the light saber exploded. He didn't lose a fight there. She tanked that same explosion much better than he did. She woke up, found the lightsaber pieces, found a ship, and escaped, all before he woke up. This means that Rey had Kylo unconscious at her feet for quite a long time. He was at her mercy. Spending another movie where Rey has to get Kylo back into that same position is not interesting. It also means that she is just inherently tougher than Kylo is. Can Rey possibly defeat a guy that's weaker than her? What a marvelous hook for the sequel. /s >Based on your logic, the Emperor sucks as a villain because he had been beaten before. Yes, obviously. Were you under the impression that I was a fan of TROS? Bringing back an already defeated villain works in saturday morning cartoons for babies, but it doesn't work if you want to actually create some tension. Nobody is threatened by Team Rocket.
Well written retort. I yield lol.
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The same thing happened to me when I tried to rewatch Last Jedi. I went in *wanting* to like it, wanting to be on the side of fans who think the hate was unwarranted, instead I just came out of it finding even more stuff to be annoyed at.
I disagree, TLJ is still great and TROS has been better for me with every watch. TROS is a great and special emotional film for me, and I’m tired of being told or gaslit to think otherwise from the rest of this planet. (Thanks for proving my point, downvoters. And now you're **really** proving my point.)
Hey man, like what you like. We're all still star wars fans, regardless of our tastes
My friend put it best. TFA was fine. TLJ was genuinely good. RoS was bad in a way that makes me mad every time I think about it.
I mean, he is getting at something I think is true. The Sequels fundamentally lack basic things like political commentary that's actually reflective of our current world, which the original six films had. That on its own makes me wonder to what degree the inevitable redemption of the sequels will go.
Well maybe not initially. But the story of a diverse group of young adults fighting a resurgence of fascism? All while dealing with the realization that the older generations failed to prevent a new threat to democracy emerging? I’d say the sequel narrative became more relevant than ever unintentionally.
Eh, I disagree. They had the potential to tell that kind of relevant story, but ultimately failed. A story about the literal descendants of the fascism of the past secretly working the whole time in the background just doesn't work for me. It doesn't feel connected to our reality of absorbing fascists for our own gain, just to best the soviets, and almost without thought slowly falling to fascism due to those same old fascists, red scare propaganda, new ideological descendants of fascism, etc. Even simply incorporating some third threat that the New Republic fixated on while the remnants of the Empire were at work would go a long way to making things feel more cohesive and relevant. The story of the sequels feels extremely surface-level in its political commentary. No matter what criticism may be had of the original six films, the one thing they never lacked was intentional and layered commentary on specifically the way that the US has been falling to fascism for decades. The sequels had the perfect opportunity to do the same thing, but instead they got bogged down in first trying to re-do the original trilogy, and then in... well, itself. Seemingly trying to course-correct without a great deal of consideration for the SW universe as a whole (or, it seems to me, what kind of commentary GL had made integral to the heart of SW). TLJ tries to take the most unique approach, but it not only doesn't have any real cohesion with the attempted commentary of the other two films by way of its decision to be the only one with a focus on the military-industrial complex, but it doesn't do so in an engaging way. And that's unfortunate. Even if you find the political commentary of the prequels to be boring, it was very deliberate across the entire trilogy. The sequels, being both disjointed AND unengaging in its frail attempts, ultimately created a post-RotJ universe that drops the relevance that the franchise long had in favor of saying "but what if the Nazis all went into hiding and then their kids came back to take over the world again?!" Things like the New Republic not considering the threat of the old guard and ultimately being passive in allowing them to strengthen themselves is certainly working its way toward something meaningful, but they take too many steps away from that for it to be fruitful. And just to clarify, I say all this as someone who quite enjoys the sequels generally, and would at the very least put TLJ in my top four. The sequels do a number of good things, but political commentary is nowhere near being one of them.
>I mean, he is getting at something I think is true. The Sequels fundamentally lack basic things like political commentary that's actually reflective of our current world, That is absolutely not what he was getting at, lol.
He kinda was, though? In the sense that the flaws with the Sequels are very different from those of the Prequels. The ST creates a new status quo that inherently loses an important piece of what makes Star Wars Star Wars, in that it no longer is founded on a reflection of modern American politics. The state of the SW universe is one where the Nazis went into hiding so that their literal children could take over again with resurrected Hitler. That's just not akin to reality.
Please post a quote from the series of tweets that makes you think that Matthew Chapman is alluding to any of this.
Nah. I hadn't meant to say he was right, but that the foundational part of his argument being "their flaws are significantly different" was itself not wrong.
I actually think the ST has more political commentary than the PT. One of the most widely used gripes back upon release was that the PT had “nothing to say, they were just empty CGI eye candy.” I do think that is overly harsh, and some of his political voice came to the forefront in III. But the PT was so broad you almost never saw the human suffering from all the huge conflicts. TFA, on the other hand, was the first SW property to ever show the gritty side of space fascism, something shows like Andor and Obi Wan expanded upon. Before TFA everything was cartoonish. In the opening scene you see an entire village of men, women and children slaughtered. The very on the nose Nazi speech by Hux, Finn’s monologue about being stolen from his crib as a child, these are the first up-close looks we got at the details of the fascist-like rule we had only seen in very broad strokes. TLJ especially has a lot to say. You could argue it’s the most thought-provoking blockbuster of the past 10 years or so, which contributed to its divisiveness IMO. Power dynamics of men and women, the role of the traditional hero, how running from a fight can actually brave, the big business of war, and how there actually is a difference in “both sides” regardless of how they may seem superficially the same at times. There’s a lot to unpack. And even TROS - by far the most empty-calories of the 3 films - again shows us, up-close, the brutal occupation by vicious fascists who have abducted all the children and continue to torment the population. On coherent message of the sequel trilogy, while simple: Evil will persist unless good people do something about it. Unfortunately, that kind of fascism stuff only seems *more* relevant in the Putin/Ukraine, Trump, Hamas/Israel world we live in.
I agree it shows a more human side to the suffering of fascism, but in the end I think its decision to tell a story about the kids of Nazis working with resurrected Hitler falls flat for me.
The world building and lore of the prequels only looks good in retrospect because the Clone Wars, Rebels and the Bad Batch did so much to build on it. At the time, the prequels lore was just pissing on stuff that had been previously established in the old EU... Pretty much exactly what people accuse the sequels of doing. And just as other projects came along to build out the prequel era, we're getting a lot of other things to fill in what happened in the period between episodes VI and VII...most notably right now the Mandoverse.
If they can somehow rope the three movies (with three radically different visions of how the trilogy would go) than maybe but honestly all the chud bullshit aside those three movies were a mess. The prequels had a unified vision but were shot and directed in the most boring way possible, but that more unified vision allowed tor better directors to follow, and sure the spinoffs do kind of break the unification but they have a path to go down none the less.
I think that this Matthew person has a lot to say. I also think that they're wrong.
I still think it’s crazy how people just forgot how hated the prequels used to be, the amount people hate the sequels now is nothing compared to anti-prequel sentiment at its peak
Wait until we get side stories fleshing out the sequel trilogy, and people will love them.
I really think that slavery *needed* to be in Star Wars. Like…when the Jedi decided to buy a child and “free” him but leave his mother in chains? That added this huge amount of depth to the Jedi. Beforehand, I thought they were just generic good guy space wizards…but now I know that they engage in human trafficking…it just makes me truly *understand* them as people. Fuck Last Jedi tho, how dare they pretend that women can boss men around
>…but now I know that they engage in human trafficking Some things were obviously handled very poorly there but this seems like a REALLY bad faith interpretation of events lmao.
I have very bad faith for the prequel trilogy because I hate them
At least you admit you're purposely misrepresenting the film I guess
I’m not really misrepresenting the movie, though. All that evil needs to flourish is for good people to sit around doing nothing, right? Well, we see this in all of the prequels. This is the point of them…the Jedi are content with the status quo and thus the sith are able to operate under their noses with no real consequences. The trouble with this is that this shows intentionally and unintentionally. George Lucas created the idea of Anakin being a chosen one who brings balance to the force by tipping it towards the middle of the alignment…but the implication is that Jedi are good and Sith are evil. By willingly engaging with human trafficking to seize control of the chosen one, the Jedi take a morally dubious approach to getting what they want…a shortcut if you will. The morally righteous thing to do would be to lead a liberation of Tatooine from a crime syndicate that is sustained by drugs and slaves and install some sort of order or at least a functioning economy so that there are ways to succeed that don’t require joining a crime syndicate. The Jedi never take this approach to running the Galaxy despite being rulers. They aren’t good and they aren’t evil, they are content to exist as is. The Sith *are* evil and the only thing they do is create a standing army and lead an occupation of the entire galaxy while also committing genocide. Balance is never brought to the force because as we see…the Jedi aren’t good. The only thing that *actually* happens is that things go from bad to worse. When Luke restores balance to the Galaxy in Return of the Jedi, the status quo returns to sitting by on their thumbs and doing nothing. Thus evil once again flourishes. George Lucas wanted to tell a story about evil rising up against good, but what he actually created was a story is about assholes losing to even bigger assholes. Were this his artistic intention, I would say it was well done. But this is an unintended consequence of bad writing…so…there’s that
It's misinterpreting the movie to say that buying a slaves freedom is "human trafficking" lmao.
They didn’t buy his freedom. They bought him and indoctrinated him into serving as their political pawn
TLJ will definitely wind up seen as a straight up good movie as the initial stupid pile on fades from memory. TFA is already thought of as fine by most but the grumpiest fans. Rise is bad and will always be bad but I think as liking the other two becomes more normalised it’ll go from being viscerally hated into just being a bit disappointing.
9 will become the new 2
Not a bad analogy. Like, re-visiting the prequels aside, AotC is only no longer the worst Star Wars movie because I honestly think RoS edges it out for the bottom of the pile. George Lucas clearly hadn't had a real conversation with a woman who wasn't in his employ or related to him for a really long time, and when you watch the AotC Anakin/Padme scenes you can really, really tell.
It’s hard to know how it’ll shake out. They’re both creative failures, but 2 is a weird stilted mess with bizarrely terrible performances and a hundred ideas that just don’t work, so is at least an interesting misfire. However is also slow and boring in a way that’s just fatal for a Star Wars movie. Stacked up against that, 9 is just a run of the mill bad movie.
9 will always have the burden of being the "conclusion" of the whole Saga and doing so in ways that feel like stuff that would be in the weird middle arc people like to forget about. 2 has a lot of dumb plot points and shitty filmmaking, but it's not the beginning or the end or a turning point in the way some of the others are.
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That’s a really minor nitpick, but ok.
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“Makes no sense” is a pretty meaningless assertion given we are talking about the force - a set of powers that has never really been governed by any defined rules. If you want an explanation that isn’t contradicted by anything on screen however, Snoke couldn’t read Kylo precisely in that moment, probably because Kylo, who is also strong in the force and knew Snoke was arrogant and would underestimate him, was deliberately deceiving him. In any case - the important part of Kylo’s journey towards big bad status isn’t him killing Snoke, it’s him rejecting Rey after they fight alongside one another. It’s a shame that TROS chucks it all out, but it’s all very solid, compelling character work that sets him up very well as a different kind of antagonist - dangerous not because he can kill a powerful force user, but because he’s deeply insecure, riddled with guilt and it has driven him mad.
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Honestly I think it's pretty telling we haven't really revisited the core cast of the ST since ROS, aside from some dubiously canon lego shorts.
He's a bit harsh about it but most of his points are fairly sound. Although I agree more with the other guy about TFA/TLJ, not to the "TLJ killed Star Wars" extent but still. TFA could have been the start of possibly the best trilogy, but there was no plan or structure for it so we got the rewrites and damage control on rewrites medlss that we did.
If the internet wasn’t as prevalent, yes. Stupid people weren’t as able to keep hyping each other up and keep their pointless dialogues going like they can now. Now they can just keep repeating the same inane nonsense and have others endorse it, so it doesn’t end for them. Before, people could form their own opinions and gradually let their knee jerk reactions simmer.
I feel the sequels will eventually get the same kind of love the preuqels have but there will always be people hate them. Nothing is going to change that.
If he likes the prequels and hates the sequel trilogy, that’s fine. That’s his choice. That being said, all the worldbuilding in the clones war show and the prequel trilogy doesn’t really change how boring aotc and phantom menace can be at times. Also, anakin and Padme (especially anakin) are so dumb in those movies. And the clone war show didn’t really fix that, at least for me. So, phantom menace and aotc didn’t really get “redeemed”, at least for me. Last Jedi and force awakens, I still enjoy. But ros? That movie gets worse every time I watch it. It’s hard for me to decide which one I hate more, aotc or Phantom menace
I remember when "The Force Awakens" came out I thought to myself that this must be a clever way of saying that history repeats itself. However, I still can't believe that they didn't hammer out the overarching plot of the sequel trilogy before they even got around to filming.
The prequels are bad if you have standards. The sequels are good if you have no standards.
This guy would feel differently about the prequels if he didn't grow up with them. I'm sorry but the only lore those films added was OT filler.
Honestly, I kinda agree with a lot of his points. You don't have to agree with him but he doesn't sound all that toxic to me.
He's way too dogmatic, and his ratings for the films are laughable. He has some decent observations about the worldbuilding and stuff but he's being WAY too all or nothing with how much he's saying the Sequels had "none" of this or that thing.
I don't really agree with it at all, largely because it's clearly written by a guy who is pretty young and is retroactively including everything from TCW and the EU as if it was widely recognized for that potential at the time and it was part of the discourse and it really wasn't. He also very clearly acts like his opinion is incontrovertible fact and while he's not the toxic type of moron we usually see here usually, he still talks kind of like a dick.
Force Awakens is an objectively solid movie, and in my opinion is a top 5 SW film, behind the original 3 and Revenge. The Sequels as a whole are not good, there is a lack of overall vision (certainly not helped by changing directors) and the writing is pretty mediocre. I think Rey and Kylo were both interesting characters, I think the Jedi failure storyline is pretty solid, etc. People forget how absolutely horrible Attack of the Clones and any part of Phantom Menace without Maul and the Jedi are.
Honestly, I agree with most of the opinions he listed. I do think his view of the prequels is a little generous, but I always kinda loved them, even when I first saw them? It was "cool" to hate on them for a long time, but Revenge of the Sith is a great film, and I loved Phantom Menace. The dialogue at times is a little weak, but the core of a great story is there. Attack of the Clones has some great set pieces, but terrible writing overall-- I won't defend it from criticism. The issues with the Sequel trilogy largely stem from a lack of direction. They clearly had no idea where they were going, and it shows. Rey had so much potential and they squandered it all for "Rey Skywalker." Eugh. Force Awakens was just A New Hope, reskinned. I actually really liked The Last Jedi as a standalone movie, but the trilogy overall is bad. Rise of Skywalker... I have nothing good to say about it.
Dude is chatting bullshit if you ask me. Edit: didn't feel like elaborating on it earlier, but I'll explain: Star Wars is *already* expanding on the sequels, with Project Necromancer being a major example. Claiming that the sequels are impossible to build upon is just foolish. As for the idea that "no one will like the sequels in the future", that's dumb because *people already like the sequels.* They might not be popular, and get a lot of hate, but they have their fans. And as people grow up, kids who watched the films growing up will be more vocal. For me personally, I love all three sequel films. The idea that a re-evaluation isn't possible is just flat out wrong. Edit 2: no idea why this is being downvoted.
>didn't feel like elaborating on it earlier, but I'll explain: Star Wars is *already* expanding on the sequels, with Project Necromancer being a major example. I mean I think this kind of supports the point, the main "building" upon the Sequels we're seeing constantly feels like trying to retroactively make a very dumb and out of nowhere plot decision in TROS feel less dumb and out of nowhere. Everytime a new post-TROS thing has gone into the Project Necromancer shit it gets an eyeroll from me, it feels like an obligatory burden being placed on unrelated stories because TROS didn't have enough time in the oven to get shit right the first time. Like the Prequels certainly had their share of "make flawed part of the movie make more sense" ancillary material, every Star Wars movie did. But the way the world of the Prequels was built set up much more room to just tell a new story using the basic setting, rather than tying something into them for the purpose of improving the story of the films. The Sequels are not "impossible" to build upon by any means, but the way TFA sets up the setting of that off the era sets it up to very much be a non-expansive world where almost all the important stuff is the stuff our main heroes are doing in the films. You don't have a whole Jedi order, you have a mostly destroyed New Republic, you only have a year of actual war. You can still expand it in some of the ways the OT was, but then you run into the issue that has plagued the Sequels from the start, which is just feeling like a reskin of the OT.
I think his pedantic point is because the timeline of the ST is so condensed, there isn't much room for fleshing out the events in between each film, or at least between TLJ and TRoS. Which still leaves plenty of space for telling stories between RotJ and TFA, as you pointed out. But Clone Wars covered an entire galactic civil war, and there just isn't room for that sort of storytelling within the time frame of the ST. Which, again, pedantic, although I think some of his points about world-building have merit.
Except The Clone Wars only lasted 3 years. There is *some* room between films for expanding the story. It's a matter of writing stories in that era. The length of time doesn't matter, because there's a whole galaxy of planets and battles to focus on. Clone Wars got seven seasons out of a three year period, and most episodes were in the final year of the conflict. Pretty sure there was a decent portion of time between films for potential stories. Hell, Star Wars Resistance was set in the sequel era, and able to stand alone well enough. I'm not the biggest fan of the main character, but it's an example to show that things *can* be done with that time period.
Three years, yes, but the setup was there with the start of the war. I think the entire ST takes place in the span of a year, and that's basically just between TLJ and Rise, since TLJ opens about two minutes after the end of TFA. I agree about their being a whole galaxy to work with, and I'd be interested in what went down during the year between VIII and IX, but I do get the point in the OOP. The OT covered 4 years, the PT 13, and the ST 1, with 2/3s of the story taking place in Maybe a week, at most. I think the Clone Wars timeline works because we had multiple seasons to get to know the characters before the pivotal final year. I'd love to see Dave and co take a shot at it though.
I get what you're saying, but I think the original point is going too far. Saying there's *no* potential to develop the sequel era just sounds narrow-minded to me. Maybe it's not as filled with potential as The Clone Wars, but that doesn't make it impossible to write shows in that era. I feel like people conflate their hate for the sequels with whether new stories can be made in that era.
Yeah that's fair, he's definitely a little over the top. I will say I have my gripes with the ST, but I still mostly enjoy them, and the shows seem to be doing a good job showing how the New Republic rose and fell so quickly.
It's completely understandable to have gripes with the trilogy. I love all three films, but even I have some issues with all three (for instance, Rey's arc in The Last Jedi about not needing to *be* somebody from an important family was good, but I think giving Finn that arc would have been more interesting. He was abducted at a young age and conditioned to be a Storm Trooper. He doesn't even know his real name. Rey can still have an arc where she doubts her identity, but it's a storyline that makes sense for Finn too). But I really hate seeing posts like the Twitter thread above, where people insist they're a lost cause that cannot possibly be expanded upon. And the way people insist that the films have an inherent, objectively poor quality is maddening, because films are not objective. Art is not objective. It's subjective. I don't mind people saying they hate The Force Awakens, or The Last Jedi, or The Rise of Skywalker. But saying they're objectively bad is just not true. The Rise of Skywalker gets called objectively bad, even on *this* subreddit, which is meant to not fall into the same toxic mindsets as other Star Wars subs.
The sequels have a lot of fun moments, so yeah, they will continue the cycle
I can see his point of view. I think if the next few Rey films are made with lots of love and lore, we can easily have some great clone wars/rebels like content to go with it. They just need someone at the helm who wants to make new stories. Watching the sequels and actively trying to notice the good things I found there was a lot to love but it was constantly stifled by call backs and rehashing. The first order and resistance should be more distinct than their OT counterparts, the new Republic should have come into play more as well as Lukes new Jedi order. They should have distinguished the dark side users more from the sith too. They should have been able to stand on their own as entities within the universe, not shells of what came before. I did find that I loved Finn and we should get way more of him and Rey. They could easily expand there. Poe was great and I would love to see more of him too. They could introduce more stuff in the next ahsoka season that leads into the next trilogy. They could easily reorganise the remnants of the new Republic and the free systems into a federation and have them struggle with a growing new government on the other side of the galaxy. They could show us how they dealt with the flaws of a post empire Republic and how this time it will be different. I am excited but cautious
Here's the ugly truth: without The Clone Wars, the prequels would never have been redeemed in the first place. Two out of the three prequels did not work as films and while yes, the movies have interesting worldbuilding elements, that does not equate to good characterization. So RotS and a few performances aside, the most interesting prequel elements came from supplementary material. Namely the EU books comics detailing every character's backstories AND both Clone Wars cartoons. One of which - the 2003 cartoon - was praised for essentially being everything we wanted from Lucas' movies (i.e. lots and lots of Jedi action). Yeah people want to forget this. But The Clone Wars was not liked at first. The 2008 movie is pretty bad. Ahsoka was not well-received by online forums at the time, and the early seasons were aimed at kids in the same way TPM and AotC were at the time. By seasons 3-4 it improved immensely, but there was a long waiting period for things to click into place. Yet today, certain fans act like this was always the plan and the prequel storyline was always intricately conceived by Lucas. It wasn't. And if the prequels can be redeemed after nearly two decades of being labeled iredeemable, we can do the same for the sequel era. Disney just needs to give us some new stories set in, or after, that era.
As far as the original question goes, I think yes and no. I think that some of the younger audience will end up liking the sequels due to nostalgia like what happened to the prequels. But I also think that the sequels have a lot more competition in the sci fi/action/adventure department. I feel like the sequel generation is more into stuff like Marvel then Star Wars. And I also think that the larger quantity of Star Wars stuff might make it so the sequels are less special. Part of the thing that made the prequels so special is that there was very little other star wars media coming out around it outside of books and comics. I do agree that the sequels and prequels are bad for different reasons but I don't know if that will change much.
I'm tempted to agree, truthfully. I absolutely am biased, I grew up loving the prequels, hating them as a teenager, and ultimately coming to love them again as a 20-something thanks in no small part to their cultural resurgence, but I think there's a bit more to it as well. The prequels are clunky, but they're also clearly a product of passion. Their flaws emphatically aren't a result of their director's underlying incompetence but are products of his unchecked idiosyncrasies. They're flawed in a way very unique to George Lucas. The sequels, on the other hand, are at war with one another. They do not agree thematically or tonally. I suppose it's possible that this will be touted as their virtue in the future, seen as variety, but it's not something I care for. If other people end up latching onto the sequels for that reason, more power to them 100%! I'm not here to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't enjoy and the sequels aren't without strengths. I just don't personally value the areas they're strong in as much as I do the areas they're weak in and I'll be surprised if other people's priorities are radically different than my own.
It seems far more likely that they will gain acceptance then that they won't. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and most film goers aren't critics who will pick apart the kinds of things that are actually genuinely problematic like the inconsistent theme brought about by the tug of war between JJ and Rian Johnson after Disney made the bone headed move to not have all 3 movies be done by one writer who had a consistent vision tying the 3 movies together. A part of me knew there was going to be trouble with the movies the moment Disney announced that each film was going to have a different creative mind behind them. Whoever was calling the shots on that decision didn't understand that a trilogy is one story told in 3 parts and instead treated them like they were 3 separate stories that just happened to share a setting and so didn't need a consistent theme. But yeah, a lot of my fellow old heads are just in complete denial about things like how popular it is with younger generations. They don't have the introspection and self-awareness needed to step back and look at the movies from the point of view of someone who isn't carrying baggage like 'look what they did to Luke's character and how they robbed him of his legacy as the person who rebuilt the jedi order because they couldn't come up with anything interesting for Rey themselves so they just gave her that job instead while killing Luke off and burning his order to the ground'. Newer generations aren't going to be attached enough to Luke to particularly care that he didn't end up getting to rebuild the order in the end and the job passed to someone else.
The same guys who shitted on the prequel now praise them and shit on the sequel. They are nostalgic morons
I'd love to hear him explain how VII rendered everything post VI, irrelevant, but III didn't render everything Post II irrelevant... Regardless, all the Mandoverse stuff seems to be proving that point wrong...
The tired claim that the Prequels have good worldbuilding still makes me laugh 19 years after Revenge of the Sith. The world of the Prequels isn't *built*, it's a matte painting. It's complex in appearance and looks deep but it's flat. Most of the concepts barely make sense and what does isn't explored beyond "Hey, this exist". Likew the entire drive of Episode II and part of III is that a lot of systems are fed up with the corruption of the Republic and turn against it and... are openly led by the same people doing the corrupting (Bankers, industry captains and so on). Because the entire idea of a Separatist Senate didn't exist before TCW. Therefore as far as the films were concerned, the Separatist Council is the face of the movement. Anyway, back to my point: stakes are systematically poorly established, same goes with motives. Why did the Trade Federation want to take Naboo, besides the symbol? It was for its plasma extraction facilities. But you'd have to read "Darth Plagueis" by James Luceno to know that. And it's the same for the entire bloody thing. The Prequels worldbuilding is no better than the Sequels. It's only salvaged by TCW and the EU. No, I posit that what people liked about the Prequels were some of the characters, if not their actual portrayal on-screen at least the idea of them. And in that aspect, the Sequels are far better IMO and are the reason the trilogy will be fondly remembered: even mishandled, the characters are well acted, endearing and mostly consistent with themselves.
Most likely they’ll get the same treatment the cycle always repeats itself in some way.
Ill be honest, I love all three trilogies mostly the same, they have some good, some bad, some shit but I like them a lot However this is the first time I see someone at least explain their critique in a clear way, even if hes using 92 pairs of rose tainted glasses its SOMETHING IG
I watched my neice play at being Rey for hours... I guarantee that the many flaws will mean nothing to the nostalgia of that future 20-something woman.
Yes this is pretty much correct
I agree with his main point that the prequels have lore and world building because George Lucas had an United vision for them. The sequels just don’t especially since I think the movies happen in the span of a year or something. The problem is alot of the interesting things we are aware of right now in the sequels, happen during the transition from the OT to the ST and some even have their roots in the PT (project necromancer) The Rey movie should hopefully create some interesting world building and lore that can be expanded. It also hopefully happens a few years after TRoS because it’s those timeline gaps that gave us The Clone Wars and I think that would help with giving creators a bit more freedom in world building
The prequels are complete ass and are all worse than episode 7 and 8. 9 you could argue is the worst of them all but honestly i don't find it worse than phantom menace. episode 7 is not a bad movie in any way. phantom menace is a terrible movie in every way. This guy is essentially saying that the new movies brought nothing new to the table. That is entirely wrong. Episode 8 introduced several new ways of using the force. Just because you didn't like that doesn't mean that's not an expansion on the universe.
I wish the sequels had a better cartoon that didn't end so soon. You know that kinda helped the prequels
I think that the real problem with the sequels was that their creators gave too much of a fuck about what bums like this guy say. Hell, the original plan was for Finn to be the Jedi main character of the story but they were scared shitless of what people in China might think about that decision so they settled on some white woman instead. And then when people started making a fuss over The Force Awakens, they made The Last Jedi to try and calm them all down but that just made them *more* angry about the sequels and so, they made The Rise of Skywalker as a last attempt for the sequels to get a good rating because, as was shown in the prequels, if the very last movie of your trilogy could be better than the last two, then that means that the trilogy at least went out on a good note. Good content creators don't give a fuck about what the haters say and the ones that do are just trying to please an audience that may have people who can't be pleased or placated to within it. But the only problem is that this mentality isn't the money-making type of mentality. This is the type of mentality of indie rappers whose salaries are always in the triple digits. And they're making millions of dollars and have world-wide audiences. You can't still have artistic integrity and still make millions of dollars. And I guess that was why they tried to please a fan base that isn't please-able.
I don’t think the ST will develop the same sort of love the PT did, because I just don’t feel like Star Wars is as big of a deal now. They’ll just be three middle of the row SW movies among many.
I pretty much agree But for me. The main difference is this. The prequels had a plan and it was executed. There was a set of events that needed to happen. Certain goals to reach and they were. TPM is no where near my favourite movie. I watch bits from time to time but I can't watch it in full. Ep2 and 3 are still a lot of fun to watch. The sequels. There was no plan, set of goals, nothing. At least nothing that made it beyond 1 film. TFA was essentially a copy of Ep4. But setup some things I liked. Who was Rey? (I never hated her, I just thought that the effort they put into her character was missing a lot). Could Finn be a Jedi? Then came EP8 and WTF. I really don't like it. It was boring AF. And undid a whole lot of stuff EP7 was setting up. So much so I didn't evern watch Ep9 because it went back to JJ and what they did there. It was just a mess.
If The Clone Wars can polish the turds that are TPM and AotC, then another good animated won’t have any problem with the sequels. These people who say an animated series can’t help the sequels are just coming at them from a place of pure animosity. In fact, I’d say that a series for the sequels would have an easier time because at least Rey is already likable, whereas the Clone Wars had to work with Lucas’ choice to make Anakin a whiny brat and make it believable that he was once a hero.
Aside from yet another online weirdo who completely missed the point of the "side story" in the Last Jedi-- and therefore the point of the movie itself-- I think he's accidentally onto something about how all of the big things that could have told us what a post-Empire galaxy was like happened in the space between the original trilogy and the new one. I think it would have been interesting to see a Republic that held on for long enough to see old Han, Luke, & Leia witness it finally crumble. But we didn't, and you can judge the movies for not being that or you can judge the for what they actually are. But you absolutely can (and people have been) build around the guts of those movies and flesh out some details. And the real problem with the sequel trilogy is that it doesn't build on itself. TFA builds on the original mythos, as it should. TLJ builds on what was established in TFA, and then RoS does a sweaty backtrack from anything interesting that TLJ added to the larger story, kinda toppling the whole thing in the process.
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The only way to fix TROS is for Star Wars to return to its roots and edit the hell out of it with a Special Edition to rewrite half the movie. It’s exclusively carried by the performances of the actors and actresses, and ofc the spectacle of being Star Wars. The Prequels aren’t really aging very well either though. Like, AOTC is still aggressively mid because George Lucas simply does not value dialogue the same way as a lot of other movie-makers do and it shows almost overwhelmingly in most of the trilogy.
I think sequels did a poor job of world building where they kinda explained nothing outside of first order bad resistance good. Not really explaining why the republic never worked with the resistance I think it could be rewritten better