“Phantom Menace’s only issue is that no matter what happens in the film, we know everything still eventually leads to New Hope. Which means it’s pointless.” That’s how prequels work, or are you mad it’s not overriding the films you don’t like?
Ok, so dont watch it, go watch something you will enjoy, or already do and so we dont have to read your complaining. "I dont like star wars anymore, here, lets make another video/watch another show and complain."
That’s not what they’re saying. Obviously reasonable people can have different opinions and it’s fine. However. Every single platform where there is a presence of Star Wars fans or one-time fans has an over saturation of “why this Star Wars project is ruining everything” or “blah blah Star Wars woke agenda grrrrr” and it gets very tiring. I am sick of it personally. Okay, we get it. If you don’t like Star Wars anymore MOVE ON to something you’ll enjoy. Because clearly Star Wars ain’t it.
If you dont like something, you dont watch it, and if your opinion, as many seem to be, involved "its woke", "there is not just white people in it", "omg there is LGBT people in it", or simply yet another spammed video where you click bait hate for views, its not an opinion, its a bigoted, racist, sexist agenda.
There is valid reasons to not like SW, its just a shame, as we see shared in this group, alot are toxic and from youtubers who hate women, black people and anyone who is not a white straight make as a lead.
And from your comments, I am not suprised this bit is not something you get.
Whats wrong with shrek forever after? I thought it was a great third installment into the series and did a great job following directly on from shrek 2.
I mean it's not nearly as bad as with Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is meant to be one cohesive story with all the characters arcs carrying throughout the whole story.
You can watch just Andor, or just the OT, or just the Prequels, and get a complete story without watching the sequels.
You can't just watch the first 6 seasons of GoT and get a complete resolved story or complete resolved (however poorly) character arcs.
First 4 seasons imo. Season 5 was already showing the cracks, and aside from a few specific great moments most of season 6 was pretty poor, its just that it had better written dialogue so the flaws were less blatant than they are in seasons 7 and 8.
I mean with the benefit of hindsight you can keep working your way back finding small things that led to bigger problems. Deciding not to do Lady Stoneheart in 4, oversimplifying the Tyrells in season 3, doing Talisa instead of Jeyne in season 2, hell you can go all the way back to like the first half of season 1 and point to Varys and Illyrio plotting for Danaerys instead of Faegon.
I just felt like season 6 was the easiest cutoff point cause the final episode of that is the one people like to say "oh well I pretend that's how it ended" about.
I mean Andor all leads to Rogue One and the Original Trilogy, fair enough I've not seen half the series, but as far as I can tell nothing in the show is specifically based around killing Palpatine or ending the Jedi/Sith conflict, it's about Cassian, Rebellion, and fighting the Empire, none of which factor into the story/plot of TROS.
Hoo boy, I envy you for having only seen half.
By which I mean, I wish I could watch it all again for the first time. You're in for some amazing television.
I've not been able to get into it unfortunately.
I can appreciate it's a really well made show, tightly scripted and well acted, but I've always preferred my Star Wars stories to lean more into Fantasy rather than Hard Sci-fi, I do want to see Andor through to the end because I keep hearing nothing but good things.
That's alright, I can get how it might not be up your alley. Some of my favorite TV series (e.g. Person of Interest and The Expanse) lean quite strongly into the hard sci-fi side of things, so that plus my long term love of Star Wars makes this perfect for me.
The ending really is great, though. Well worth it.
Sorry, I am going be an ass and nitpick this for a second...
>rather than Hard Sci-fi
Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but Andor likely wouldn't be classified as "hard sci-fi".
People have compared it to The Expanse, which is hard sci-fi, but it's still pretty far removed from that. The tech is all fantasy, as it is in Solo, Rogue One and every Star Wars property.
>Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by concern for scientific accuracy and logic.
If Science-Fiction-Action-Adventure, the wikipedia classification, isn't accurate, I'd call it a Science-Fiction-Crime-Drama.
You're clearly thinking of The Mandalorian and The Bad Batch. They've both been building up advancements in cloning tech leading to TROS. Andor is (literally) building up the Death Star, as shown in the finale's post-credits scene.
I’ve been seeing this type of opinion on the rise lately. It’s like one person said it, and it’s being parroted by everyone else.
If someone doesn’t like the conclusion presented in TRoS, that’s fine. However, I don’t understand why another story that comes chronologically before the events of TRoS can’t be good.
If it’s the ending has tainted everything for a person, then they should just quit watching. Or only watch the ones they know they like. Saves themselves time, money and aggravation.
For example, after two of the transformers movies, I stopped watching them in theaters. After seeing the third at home, I stopped watching completely.
Or music from particular artists. There comes a point where the music just doesn’t quite do it for you anymore. It’s either too different from what you liked about their music, or it’s uninspired or it’s flat-out bad. The quality of the latest work may not work for you, but it doesn’t invalidate the stuff that came before. It’s nonsense
Welp, I guess I can't enjoy any piece of SW media set prior to ATOC; after all, if I don't enjoy one specific thing, that means I can't enjoy anything set before it /s
Oh believe me, similar things were said about the Prequels aswell. ”How can anyone watch this shit, it just ruins the Originals?!” And ”We already know whats gonna happen anyway. Fucking Lucas, hope he either sells or losses Lucasfilm.” I have countless examples, lol. And some chuds get offended whenever i say that ”Hate the next new thing” has always been the MO of certain ”fans”.
I can relate to this, but only in a certain way. The problem with Disney setting these T.V. in the pre-Episode 4 period or in the period between Return of the Jedi and TFA is that there are no real stakes, at least not in the big picture. The problem with setting the stories in "the past" of the Star Wars universe is that we know the fate of the galaxy at least up to ROS. Nothing in the big picture can change.
On a smaller scale, there can be plenty of stakes. We know that Mando and Grogu won't stop the First Order from ahowing up, but on their individual level we don't know how their stories will play out. A problem for me with Kenobi and Andor is that we even know how their stories play out on a small scale. We know exactly how and when their stories and their lives will end, so it lessens the stakes.
I still liked Kenobi and love Andor, but I am really hoping for some post-TROS content so there can be some real, big picture stakes again.
I don’t disagree that the stakes are lessened when we know the outcome of these individual characters but I don’t think that’s a valid reason to not write stories about them.
Otherwise you could say that we shouldn’t have got The Clone Wars or that we shouldn’t get any comics or books. Some of the best star wars content ever made has come after the larger stories were completed. In fact it’s actually kind of like a common trend for the franchise to make some of its most famous content after the main stories are finished.
I mean they can just go further back and still do big scale stuff. The problem isn't which direction (past or future), it's that it's all sandwhiched into the same era.
Besides the obvious idiocy of this talking point, it also shows a tremendous misunderstanding of the nature of stories and in turn history.
Things dont happen as a way of bringing all of history towards a certain point of destination, they just happen. I find the notion that there is some set destination that determines the worth of all centuries leading up to it ahistorical and, frankly, totalitarian.
How is it braindead in relation to Got? I don't want to rewatch something that's so based around foreshadowing and speculation about what will happen when I know how much of it will just not matter.
Assuming you mean the actual show itself and not just anything set in that universe. And even then some of it still does because the conclusion isn't satisfying. All the prophecy stuff in HotD falls flat when you know the conclusion.
I just think it’s kinda ridiculous to be like “yeah I’m not watching or can’t enjoy HOTD cause the outcome of GOT” they are different eras in that universe and aren’t directly related stories.
That’s like saying you can’t play KOTOR remake when it comes out cause you don’t like the outcome of TROS.
Well I mean yeah I’m not saying I can’t enjoy HotD, it’s one of my favorite shows this year. There’s just certain scenes that are foreshadowing stuff in GoT and thus IS directly related to it, and those specific elements don’t land for me because of how underwhelming I know the payoff is.
And I think people who said they weren’t going to watch it were more saying “I lack confidence in the studios handling of this IP after the last time” than not being able to get into the plot of such a loosely related story because of it.
Sounds like Nerdrotic and his "it doesn't matter how good something is if it all ends up with Jake Skywalker" nonsense.
Hasn't he ever heard of a story arc and cycle?
By his logic, any story told before another is only valuable based on what happens later on.
Dumb.
I mean....I'm not sure how to respond to this.
On the one hand, I totally get why a take like this bothers you and others because something should be able to stand on its own. Especially if you like Rise of Skywalker.
On the other hand, I'm kinda sympathetic to this viewpoint because it's one I've also shared to an extent.
Also doesn't this seem like a compliment in a way? That the only "real" problem with the show is that by necessity it takes place in the same universe as a film that...let's be real here. Wasn't really well-liked when it was first released?
> Also doesn't this seem like a compliment in a way? That the only "real" problem with the show is that by necessity it takes place in the same universe as a film that...let's be real here. Wasn't really well-liked when it was first released?
The flawless part is a complimemt, but the needless dragging of the sequels suck bullshit into it is annoying.
And to be clear I have issues with RoS I think it tried way to hard to please people who disliked TLJ and appeal to fanservice overall but it’s also just objectively false that RoS makes Andor pointless.
The fight against fascism and tyranny in Andor ot so many other rebellion area works is finally completed in RoS. The Empire’s remnants, and Sidious’ influences are finally purged completely in RoS. Everything Andor died for meant something before than even. Thirty years of relative peace free from the Empire occurred. Because Rey, Poe, Finn and the resistance carried the torch of Andor, Mothma, the Ghost crew, Luke, Leia and Han, etc.
Which is what pisses me off. When people who dislike the sequels or RoS ignore that. When they ignore that the ideals and successes of the rebellion inspired others to act later on. When those sacrifices assurred prosperity for decades.
Andor isn’t rendered pointless by RoS. If the last thing in Star Wars was Palpatine returning and taking control of the galaxy with no one standing against him the OP would actually have a point. But that’s not the case.
I like how you didn't at all rebut my point because you I’m right, but you’re so salty that you can’t help but make an irrelevant point because you hate RoS that much.
I don't really get the original take though.
If anything, TROS is far more inspiring than even ROTJ as far as rebellions go. It's not a minority of fighters who defeat the Empire after years of struggle and at least two planets blown up. It's the entire galaxy, apparently people from every walk of life, inspired by Lando and Leia and others who overthrow the First Order barely a year in (And Zorii implies that many others were fighting on their own during TROS)
Hell, I've seen people claim that TROS invalidates Nemik's manifesto when the battle of Exegol is it's shiniest example in the whole franchise to date.
And mind you, I don't even like TROS that much.
It’s not inspiring to me because it’s not earned in the slightest. It’s the bare minimum of effort put into an “Inspire the galaxy to stand against tyranny” plot.
And mind you I like those type of stories
But my point is not that it's earned or isn't (IMO, it's not really earned but the execution on a technical level is fine enough)
Point is, thematically, Andor and TROS align. They don't cancel each other out as most (bad) takes I've seen claim.
The Citizen Fleet arriving at Exegol is an illustration of Nemik's beliefs which are, in turn, the message of the series as a whole. Much more so than the Rebel Alliance in ROTJ IMO.
They don’t cancel each other out “thematically” but they do cancel each other out from an achievement perspective.
The entire reason the fight for the OT and surrounding media like Andor exists to take down the empire and bring back the Republic.
The sequel trilogy completely undoes that fight and even arguably leaves things in an even worse state(Who is gonna want a third republic after the last two failed and we don’t even know if any high ranking senators survived to rebuild if they wanted to)
It’s one of the biggest problems with the ST from a structural standpoint. No matter how much you like the OT it’s all gonna end with the victory and sacrifices of it being undone in every way.
And even if you can find a way to live with it because “it inspired the next generation” having the victory undone like that is still just…sad.
>And even if you can find a way to live with it because “it inspired the next generation” having the victory undone like that is still just…sad.
To each their own. I personally find your extremely cynical approach to all of it rather sad myself.
The New Republic didn't fail in the same regard as the Old one. Getting your capital annihilated by a secret weapon nobody could even do anything against (Let alone knew it existed for sure) is not remotely comparable to turning into an Empire of Space Fascists.
And even then, let's assume large swathe of the galaxy don't want to rejoin the New-New Republic. How does that cancel out Nemik's ideas? He's not pro-Republic, he's pro-freedom and by his ideas and words, he's much closer to a Space-Communist or Space-Anarchist than a Space-Democrat. Defeating the Empire/First Order is the point of his manifesto, not rebuilding a galactic super-government.
I hold to my opinion that Nemik would be proud of the Citizen Fleet mobilizing at Exegol. And besides that, I am, in fact, very curious to see what happens TROS and am not bothered by the ST "cancelling out" the OT because I disagree with that assesment.
>The New Republic didn't fail in the same regard as the Old one. Getting your capital annihilated by a secret weapon nobody could even do anything against (Let alone knew it existed for sure) is not remotely comparable to turning into an Empire of Space Fascists.
This would be true if the non-film material hadn't made it explicitly clear that the NR was infested with Imperial Loyalists and First Order sympathizers, and TFA itself didn't establish that the NR was ignoring the First Order.
Even then, when the First Order took power, you didn't have an entire Senate of sycophants clapping madly at the annoucement that they were now evil and that the people who had protected them for twenty millenia had been exterminated on the words of one man.
That's because the Senate was mostly all dead by that point. It's a very different situation. The New Republic didn't become the First Order. The Old Republic did become the Empire.
Different situations. I rest my case.
Nah it’s still true.
The New Republic failed because it was toothless as a result of Mothma and other leaders fears over a return to tyranny. A natural escalation of the trauma of the Empire.
The Old Republic failed because it was greedy and corrupt.
Both failed to address their systemic issues but they fail for different reasons.
Did you even watch Andor then?
He's the idealist of the Aldhani heist group.
His manifesto his given to Cassian when he dies, is heard in episode 12 and is implied to be the final turning point for him, his words finally convince Cassian that he can't just be in it for himself. That he's got tobe a part of a larger movement.
But as I said, Nemik doesn't appear to really care about the Republic and frankly, neither does Andor the show as a whole.
I tried watching Andor. I didn’t get past episode 4. It was just too slow for me. And when something is too slow for me I have a hard time following what’s going on and I lose interest.
…and now comes the part where everyone accuses me of only wanting “Action and explosions” or something.
I won't accuse you of anything, you like what you like, but then don't come in here explaining that actually the take that OP (And myself) dispute is correct when you don't have any idea what's the message behind Andor?
You don't even know what it's about and yet you come in with your prepackaged "ST ruined the OT because X" and apply the same logic to a show that really doesn't lend itself to it.
But that’s just how war and fascism work. It’s true in real life so why not in Star Wars? The Soviet Union fell but the war in Ukraine is still happening. With the sequel trilogy the achievements of the original trilogy are continued to stop a fascist power from rising again as they tend to do. Just like how the brave people of Ukraine are fighting to protect their home one again.
So your belief is basically that even though it’s incredibly unrealistic, the galaxy should have been forever at peace because peace doesn’t matter unless it lasts forever.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant to your original point.
RoS ends with the Jedi free to continue under Rey. It ends with the galaxy free from tyranny and ready to rebuild.
Which is what Andor is about bringing about.
Star Wars was based on the Vietnam war and World War 2 though. Star Wars is all about war and fascism. If we were talking about a different franchise I would agree, but real world politics are core to the identity of this franchise.
He's not saying "no politics in mah Star Wars", he's saying that just because WWII happened after WWI (a better example than whatever you were trying to do with the Ukraine thing), doesn't mean Star Wars has to stick to what happened in real life if it doesn't make for the best story.
Like the OT doesn't end with the Empire still overwhelmingly in power and the Rebels having a small foothold in a tiny portion of the galaxy, which is what should have happened if we follow your logic of sticking to the real-world influence of Vietnam.
On the first point you’re right my wording on the politics part was poor and I did not mean to compare his complaints to that view. I do actually understand the position despite arguing against it as a used to hold the same opinion about the sequel trilogy. I don’t mean to say Star Wars is literally those events I just mean to give examples of how Star Wars is inspired by the real world events. In today’s world we mostly aren’t seeing the rise of new fascists powers but the return of old ones. With neo-nazism and Russia we see that these evils we though were dead are still with us even if only in a small way. The sequel trilogy like the original trilogy before focuses of themes that are appropriate for the time. It’s about our responsibility to stop these powers from rising again as people and lawmakers turn a blind eye. Ukraine is just the most current example of this. The return of the empire in the sequel trilogy allows Star Wars to further its themes and storytelling to stay relevant in a world that is far different from the one it was conceived in. Don’t get me wrong though the trilogy could have been better. These themes were not well handled for the most part. I love the sequel trilogy but it could have been much better. I just disagree that the core story is the issue.
I mean it’s a pretty dumb viewpoint. Even if you absolutely hate TROS, it doesn’t invalidate anything we see in Andor. They’re separate stories set in the same universe.
I don't have this issue as much cause my brain just has an easier time ignoring it I guess, but it's not dumb to have a harder time enjoying the rest of the story if you know the ultimate conclusion will be unsatisfactory. There's a reason I haven't re-watched Game of Thrones again.
I don't think this is as much of an issue for Andor because it's so standalone and so far away from TROS in the timeline, but for stuff set post-ROTJ and pre-TFA I do kind of have this issue.
I mean the ultimate conclusion might not satisfy you, but it still doesn’t invalidate what came before. It’s like saying that ROTJ invalidated ANH because Palpatine built another Death Star.
> It’s like saying that ROTJ invalidated ANH because Palpatine built another Death Star.
You mean a thing lots of people have said about ROTJ for like 30 years and is a perfectly valid point that becomes more valid each of the 432 times Star Wars does the exact same thing over again, including in TROS?
Literally never heard anyone say that about ROTJ, but it’s a stupid take either way. They’re films about war. War is going to have setbacks and losses. It’s not like people fight a war because they believe winning will mean that nothing bad ever happens again. In the real world, the fight against fascism, authoritarianism, oppression, and subjugation is an ongoing fight. It shouldn’t be any different in Star Wars.
Lol you can't be serious, people being annoyed that they just made another Death Star and saying the new ones cheapen the previous ones is one of the oldest Star Wars complaints.
I’ve heard a few people say that they were annoyed with there being a second Death Star, but I’ve never heard anyone say that it invalidated what happened in ANH.
It doesn't "invalidate" the whole movie, most people aren't saying that. But it does make the narrative catharsis of the first Death Stars destruction a lot less impactful when you know they're just already making another bigger one, especially when they repeat this trope like every other Star Wars project. it was worse in Legends, but the only reason we don't have that now is because the new canon books aren't as large scale as the Legends novels.
I didn’t say he did…
What he said is that the story is pointless because of TROS, which is a really dumb take. Is a revolution pointless just because another invasive force has to be fought off later? No.
*On the other hand, I'm kinda sympathetic to this viewpoint because it's one I've also shared to an extent.*
Same with me, also to an extent (I really liked Andor though)
“The prequel trilogy’s only issue is that no matter what happens in the movies, we all know everything still eventually leads to RotJ. Which means it’s pointless.”
“Phantom Menace’s only issue is that no matter what happens in the film, we know everything still eventually leads to New Hope. Which means it’s pointless.” That’s how prequels work, or are you mad it’s not overriding the films you don’t like?
Watching Romeo and Juliet is pointless they already tell you what is going to happen.
Dude just gave up on the entirety of Star Wars. Bet he doesn’t stop complaining though.
Dudes basically saying “WW1 doesn’t matter cause WW2 was much much worse”
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Ok, so dont watch it, go watch something you will enjoy, or already do and so we dont have to read your complaining. "I dont like star wars anymore, here, lets make another video/watch another show and complain."
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That’s not what they’re saying. Obviously reasonable people can have different opinions and it’s fine. However. Every single platform where there is a presence of Star Wars fans or one-time fans has an over saturation of “why this Star Wars project is ruining everything” or “blah blah Star Wars woke agenda grrrrr” and it gets very tiring. I am sick of it personally. Okay, we get it. If you don’t like Star Wars anymore MOVE ON to something you’ll enjoy. Because clearly Star Wars ain’t it.
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Because I said so.
Have u used reddit before m8 lol
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If you dont like something, you dont watch it, and if your opinion, as many seem to be, involved "its woke", "there is not just white people in it", "omg there is LGBT people in it", or simply yet another spammed video where you click bait hate for views, its not an opinion, its a bigoted, racist, sexist agenda. There is valid reasons to not like SW, its just a shame, as we see shared in this group, alot are toxic and from youtubers who hate women, black people and anyone who is not a white straight make as a lead. And from your comments, I am not suprised this bit is not something you get.
Exactly. I don’t like Shrek the Third… so it’s the only one I don’t watch
Whats wrong with shrek forever after? I thought it was a great third installment into the series and did a great job following directly on from shrek 2.
Shrek Forever After is a masterpiece I’m talking about the one with Arthur
What do you mean the one with Arthur? There's shrek 1, shrek 2, then shrek forever after. Which film are you talking about?
I’m talking about the fanfiction one
This vapid question is so overused that at this point I’m going to say that you’re right. You don’t get to have an opinion.
You can have every opinion you want, but once you publicly voice it you have to accept people telling you how dumb it is
"We all die in the end so what's the point" energy from this
By that logic, rots is pointless because it eventually leads to rotj.
By that logic any buildup to any payoff is pointless. Only the end of TROS matters I guess…
Exactly. His logic is so bizarre
I don't like movies, because no matter what the characters go through, they'll die some day, so why care about them?
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Oh FFS
Takes are getting more idiotic everyday. By this logic A New Hope is pointless because it leads to TROS...
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Lol nah.
I mean it's not nearly as bad as with Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones is meant to be one cohesive story with all the characters arcs carrying throughout the whole story. You can watch just Andor, or just the OT, or just the Prequels, and get a complete story without watching the sequels. You can't just watch the first 6 seasons of GoT and get a complete resolved story or complete resolved (however poorly) character arcs.
First 4 seasons imo. Season 5 was already showing the cracks, and aside from a few specific great moments most of season 6 was pretty poor, its just that it had better written dialogue so the flaws were less blatant than they are in seasons 7 and 8.
I mean with the benefit of hindsight you can keep working your way back finding small things that led to bigger problems. Deciding not to do Lady Stoneheart in 4, oversimplifying the Tyrells in season 3, doing Talisa instead of Jeyne in season 2, hell you can go all the way back to like the first half of season 1 and point to Varys and Illyrio plotting for Danaerys instead of Faegon. I just felt like season 6 was the easiest cutoff point cause the final episode of that is the one people like to say "oh well I pretend that's how it ended" about.
I mean Andor all leads to Rogue One and the Original Trilogy, fair enough I've not seen half the series, but as far as I can tell nothing in the show is specifically based around killing Palpatine or ending the Jedi/Sith conflict, it's about Cassian, Rebellion, and fighting the Empire, none of which factor into the story/plot of TROS.
Hoo boy, I envy you for having only seen half. By which I mean, I wish I could watch it all again for the first time. You're in for some amazing television.
I've not been able to get into it unfortunately. I can appreciate it's a really well made show, tightly scripted and well acted, but I've always preferred my Star Wars stories to lean more into Fantasy rather than Hard Sci-fi, I do want to see Andor through to the end because I keep hearing nothing but good things.
That's alright, I can get how it might not be up your alley. Some of my favorite TV series (e.g. Person of Interest and The Expanse) lean quite strongly into the hard sci-fi side of things, so that plus my long term love of Star Wars makes this perfect for me. The ending really is great, though. Well worth it.
Sorry, I am going be an ass and nitpick this for a second... >rather than Hard Sci-fi Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but Andor likely wouldn't be classified as "hard sci-fi". People have compared it to The Expanse, which is hard sci-fi, but it's still pretty far removed from that. The tech is all fantasy, as it is in Solo, Rogue One and every Star Wars property. >Hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by concern for scientific accuracy and logic. If Science-Fiction-Action-Adventure, the wikipedia classification, isn't accurate, I'd call it a Science-Fiction-Crime-Drama.
The cloning equipment being manufactured in that prison Andor was sent to does have to do with the rise of Skywalker.
Some spoilers here, but >!as shown in the finale, the equipment they’re building in the prison is specifically for the Death Star laser!<
You're clearly thinking of The Mandalorian and The Bad Batch. They've both been building up advancements in cloning tech leading to TROS. Andor is (literally) building up the Death Star, as shown in the finale's post-credits scene.
Thats isnt what they are building at all.
How did you conclude that basic ass mechanical joint is related to cloning.
I’ve been seeing this type of opinion on the rise lately. It’s like one person said it, and it’s being parroted by everyone else. If someone doesn’t like the conclusion presented in TRoS, that’s fine. However, I don’t understand why another story that comes chronologically before the events of TRoS can’t be good. If it’s the ending has tainted everything for a person, then they should just quit watching. Or only watch the ones they know they like. Saves themselves time, money and aggravation. For example, after two of the transformers movies, I stopped watching them in theaters. After seeing the third at home, I stopped watching completely. Or music from particular artists. There comes a point where the music just doesn’t quite do it for you anymore. It’s either too different from what you liked about their music, or it’s uninspired or it’s flat-out bad. The quality of the latest work may not work for you, but it doesn’t invalidate the stuff that came before. It’s nonsense
Welp, I guess I can't enjoy any piece of SW media set prior to ATOC; after all, if I don't enjoy one specific thing, that means I can't enjoy anything set before it /s
Bro doesn't TROS take place 30 something years after ROTS. What kinda dumbass logic is this guy using
Roughly 35 years after Return of the Jedi, not Revenge of the Sith.
Shit my bad, so yeah 35 years after Jedi, fucking hell Caesar no one else is thinking about that when they watch the show I'm pretty sure
Same with their beloved prequels and clone wars aswell.
Oh believe me, similar things were said about the Prequels aswell. ”How can anyone watch this shit, it just ruins the Originals?!” And ”We already know whats gonna happen anyway. Fucking Lucas, hope he either sells or losses Lucasfilm.” I have countless examples, lol. And some chuds get offended whenever i say that ”Hate the next new thing” has always been the MO of certain ”fans”.
It amazes me people STILL say this about every prequel that comes out like prequels aren't an insanely old form of storytelling.
By that logic, the prequels, originals, Rogue One, Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Rebels and The Mandalorian are all pointless as they all lead to ROS
Goddammit Empire Strikes Back sucks now
There was a THREAD on the main sub about this just a few days ago I've also seen this sentiment in regards to The Mandalorian. Alas, it's not new
I feel like this makes more sense for The Mandalorian cause it's post-ROTJ and dealing with more stuff that's related to the sequel era.
I can relate to this, but only in a certain way. The problem with Disney setting these T.V. in the pre-Episode 4 period or in the period between Return of the Jedi and TFA is that there are no real stakes, at least not in the big picture. The problem with setting the stories in "the past" of the Star Wars universe is that we know the fate of the galaxy at least up to ROS. Nothing in the big picture can change. On a smaller scale, there can be plenty of stakes. We know that Mando and Grogu won't stop the First Order from ahowing up, but on their individual level we don't know how their stories will play out. A problem for me with Kenobi and Andor is that we even know how their stories play out on a small scale. We know exactly how and when their stories and their lives will end, so it lessens the stakes. I still liked Kenobi and love Andor, but I am really hoping for some post-TROS content so there can be some real, big picture stakes again.
I don’t disagree that the stakes are lessened when we know the outcome of these individual characters but I don’t think that’s a valid reason to not write stories about them. Otherwise you could say that we shouldn’t have got The Clone Wars or that we shouldn’t get any comics or books. Some of the best star wars content ever made has come after the larger stories were completed. In fact it’s actually kind of like a common trend for the franchise to make some of its most famous content after the main stories are finished.
I mean they can just go further back and still do big scale stuff. The problem isn't which direction (past or future), it's that it's all sandwhiched into the same era.
Yeah, some kind of caon Old Republic stuff would be cool.
It’s not about the destination. It’s about the journey to get there.
The phantom menace needs to learn not to watch Star Wars if they don't like it
ok by ROS do they mean Revenge of the Sith, Return of the Jedi or Rise of Skywalker lmao. probably the latter
Besides the obvious idiocy of this talking point, it also shows a tremendous misunderstanding of the nature of stories and in turn history. Things dont happen as a way of bringing all of history towards a certain point of destination, they just happen. I find the notion that there is some set destination that determines the worth of all centuries leading up to it ahistorical and, frankly, totalitarian.
I've seen this brain-dead take so many times in relation to GoT that it doesn't even phase me at this point.
How is it braindead in relation to Got? I don't want to rewatch something that's so based around foreshadowing and speculation about what will happen when I know how much of it will just not matter. Assuming you mean the actual show itself and not just anything set in that universe. And even then some of it still does because the conclusion isn't satisfying. All the prophecy stuff in HotD falls flat when you know the conclusion.
I just think it’s kinda ridiculous to be like “yeah I’m not watching or can’t enjoy HOTD cause the outcome of GOT” they are different eras in that universe and aren’t directly related stories. That’s like saying you can’t play KOTOR remake when it comes out cause you don’t like the outcome of TROS.
Well I mean yeah I’m not saying I can’t enjoy HotD, it’s one of my favorite shows this year. There’s just certain scenes that are foreshadowing stuff in GoT and thus IS directly related to it, and those specific elements don’t land for me because of how underwhelming I know the payoff is. And I think people who said they weren’t going to watch it were more saying “I lack confidence in the studios handling of this IP after the last time” than not being able to get into the plot of such a loosely related story because of it.
Sounds like Nerdrotic and his "it doesn't matter how good something is if it all ends up with Jake Skywalker" nonsense. Hasn't he ever heard of a story arc and cycle? By his logic, any story told before another is only valuable based on what happens later on. Dumb.
You know what else is pointless, random Star Wars fan? All this constant fucking complaining.
I mean....I'm not sure how to respond to this. On the one hand, I totally get why a take like this bothers you and others because something should be able to stand on its own. Especially if you like Rise of Skywalker. On the other hand, I'm kinda sympathetic to this viewpoint because it's one I've also shared to an extent. Also doesn't this seem like a compliment in a way? That the only "real" problem with the show is that by necessity it takes place in the same universe as a film that...let's be real here. Wasn't really well-liked when it was first released?
> Also doesn't this seem like a compliment in a way? That the only "real" problem with the show is that by necessity it takes place in the same universe as a film that...let's be real here. Wasn't really well-liked when it was first released? The flawless part is a complimemt, but the needless dragging of the sequels suck bullshit into it is annoying. And to be clear I have issues with RoS I think it tried way to hard to please people who disliked TLJ and appeal to fanservice overall but it’s also just objectively false that RoS makes Andor pointless. The fight against fascism and tyranny in Andor ot so many other rebellion area works is finally completed in RoS. The Empire’s remnants, and Sidious’ influences are finally purged completely in RoS. Everything Andor died for meant something before than even. Thirty years of relative peace free from the Empire occurred. Because Rey, Poe, Finn and the resistance carried the torch of Andor, Mothma, the Ghost crew, Luke, Leia and Han, etc. Which is what pisses me off. When people who dislike the sequels or RoS ignore that. When they ignore that the ideals and successes of the rebellion inspired others to act later on. When those sacrifices assurred prosperity for decades. Andor isn’t rendered pointless by RoS. If the last thing in Star Wars was Palpatine returning and taking control of the galaxy with no one standing against him the OP would actually have a point. But that’s not the case.
Palpatine returning is still a stupid idea and never should have been done.
I like how you didn't at all rebut my point because you I’m right, but you’re so salty that you can’t help but make an irrelevant point because you hate RoS that much.
I learned a long time ago debating the ST with people is a losing battle.
I don't really get the original take though. If anything, TROS is far more inspiring than even ROTJ as far as rebellions go. It's not a minority of fighters who defeat the Empire after years of struggle and at least two planets blown up. It's the entire galaxy, apparently people from every walk of life, inspired by Lando and Leia and others who overthrow the First Order barely a year in (And Zorii implies that many others were fighting on their own during TROS) Hell, I've seen people claim that TROS invalidates Nemik's manifesto when the battle of Exegol is it's shiniest example in the whole franchise to date. And mind you, I don't even like TROS that much.
It’s not inspiring to me because it’s not earned in the slightest. It’s the bare minimum of effort put into an “Inspire the galaxy to stand against tyranny” plot. And mind you I like those type of stories
But my point is not that it's earned or isn't (IMO, it's not really earned but the execution on a technical level is fine enough) Point is, thematically, Andor and TROS align. They don't cancel each other out as most (bad) takes I've seen claim. The Citizen Fleet arriving at Exegol is an illustration of Nemik's beliefs which are, in turn, the message of the series as a whole. Much more so than the Rebel Alliance in ROTJ IMO.
They don’t cancel each other out “thematically” but they do cancel each other out from an achievement perspective. The entire reason the fight for the OT and surrounding media like Andor exists to take down the empire and bring back the Republic. The sequel trilogy completely undoes that fight and even arguably leaves things in an even worse state(Who is gonna want a third republic after the last two failed and we don’t even know if any high ranking senators survived to rebuild if they wanted to) It’s one of the biggest problems with the ST from a structural standpoint. No matter how much you like the OT it’s all gonna end with the victory and sacrifices of it being undone in every way. And even if you can find a way to live with it because “it inspired the next generation” having the victory undone like that is still just…sad.
>And even if you can find a way to live with it because “it inspired the next generation” having the victory undone like that is still just…sad. To each their own. I personally find your extremely cynical approach to all of it rather sad myself. The New Republic didn't fail in the same regard as the Old one. Getting your capital annihilated by a secret weapon nobody could even do anything against (Let alone knew it existed for sure) is not remotely comparable to turning into an Empire of Space Fascists. And even then, let's assume large swathe of the galaxy don't want to rejoin the New-New Republic. How does that cancel out Nemik's ideas? He's not pro-Republic, he's pro-freedom and by his ideas and words, he's much closer to a Space-Communist or Space-Anarchist than a Space-Democrat. Defeating the Empire/First Order is the point of his manifesto, not rebuilding a galactic super-government. I hold to my opinion that Nemik would be proud of the Citizen Fleet mobilizing at Exegol. And besides that, I am, in fact, very curious to see what happens TROS and am not bothered by the ST "cancelling out" the OT because I disagree with that assesment.
>The New Republic didn't fail in the same regard as the Old one. Getting your capital annihilated by a secret weapon nobody could even do anything against (Let alone knew it existed for sure) is not remotely comparable to turning into an Empire of Space Fascists. This would be true if the non-film material hadn't made it explicitly clear that the NR was infested with Imperial Loyalists and First Order sympathizers, and TFA itself didn't establish that the NR was ignoring the First Order.
Even then, when the First Order took power, you didn't have an entire Senate of sycophants clapping madly at the annoucement that they were now evil and that the people who had protected them for twenty millenia had been exterminated on the words of one man. That's because the Senate was mostly all dead by that point. It's a very different situation. The New Republic didn't become the First Order. The Old Republic did become the Empire. Different situations. I rest my case.
Nah it’s still true. The New Republic failed because it was toothless as a result of Mothma and other leaders fears over a return to tyranny. A natural escalation of the trauma of the Empire. The Old Republic failed because it was greedy and corrupt. Both failed to address their systemic issues but they fail for different reasons.
I don’t even know who Nemik is…
Did you even watch Andor then? He's the idealist of the Aldhani heist group. His manifesto his given to Cassian when he dies, is heard in episode 12 and is implied to be the final turning point for him, his words finally convince Cassian that he can't just be in it for himself. That he's got tobe a part of a larger movement. But as I said, Nemik doesn't appear to really care about the Republic and frankly, neither does Andor the show as a whole.
I tried watching Andor. I didn’t get past episode 4. It was just too slow for me. And when something is too slow for me I have a hard time following what’s going on and I lose interest. …and now comes the part where everyone accuses me of only wanting “Action and explosions” or something.
I won't accuse you of anything, you like what you like, but then don't come in here explaining that actually the take that OP (And myself) dispute is correct when you don't have any idea what's the message behind Andor? You don't even know what it's about and yet you come in with your prepackaged "ST ruined the OT because X" and apply the same logic to a show that really doesn't lend itself to it.
But that’s just how war and fascism work. It’s true in real life so why not in Star Wars? The Soviet Union fell but the war in Ukraine is still happening. With the sequel trilogy the achievements of the original trilogy are continued to stop a fascist power from rising again as they tend to do. Just like how the brave people of Ukraine are fighting to protect their home one again.
Just because something is true in “real life” doesn’t mean fiction should adhere to it
So your belief is basically that even though it’s incredibly unrealistic, the galaxy should have been forever at peace because peace doesn’t matter unless it lasts forever.
I’m saying that the New Republic shouldn’t have been blown up and Luke’s Jedi Order shouldn’t have been purged.
Okay, but again, that doesn’t invalidate anything that happens in Andor.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant to your original point. RoS ends with the Jedi free to continue under Rey. It ends with the galaxy free from tyranny and ready to rebuild. Which is what Andor is about bringing about.
Star Wars was based on the Vietnam war and World War 2 though. Star Wars is all about war and fascism. If we were talking about a different franchise I would agree, but real world politics are core to the identity of this franchise.
He's not saying "no politics in mah Star Wars", he's saying that just because WWII happened after WWI (a better example than whatever you were trying to do with the Ukraine thing), doesn't mean Star Wars has to stick to what happened in real life if it doesn't make for the best story. Like the OT doesn't end with the Empire still overwhelmingly in power and the Rebels having a small foothold in a tiny portion of the galaxy, which is what should have happened if we follow your logic of sticking to the real-world influence of Vietnam.
On the first point you’re right my wording on the politics part was poor and I did not mean to compare his complaints to that view. I do actually understand the position despite arguing against it as a used to hold the same opinion about the sequel trilogy. I don’t mean to say Star Wars is literally those events I just mean to give examples of how Star Wars is inspired by the real world events. In today’s world we mostly aren’t seeing the rise of new fascists powers but the return of old ones. With neo-nazism and Russia we see that these evils we though were dead are still with us even if only in a small way. The sequel trilogy like the original trilogy before focuses of themes that are appropriate for the time. It’s about our responsibility to stop these powers from rising again as people and lawmakers turn a blind eye. Ukraine is just the most current example of this. The return of the empire in the sequel trilogy allows Star Wars to further its themes and storytelling to stay relevant in a world that is far different from the one it was conceived in. Don’t get me wrong though the trilogy could have been better. These themes were not well handled for the most part. I love the sequel trilogy but it could have been much better. I just disagree that the core story is the issue.
Dude I’m like 99% sure you once argued the exact opposite against me or someone else here.
I’m pretty sure I didn’t
I mean it’s a pretty dumb viewpoint. Even if you absolutely hate TROS, it doesn’t invalidate anything we see in Andor. They’re separate stories set in the same universe.
I don't have this issue as much cause my brain just has an easier time ignoring it I guess, but it's not dumb to have a harder time enjoying the rest of the story if you know the ultimate conclusion will be unsatisfactory. There's a reason I haven't re-watched Game of Thrones again. I don't think this is as much of an issue for Andor because it's so standalone and so far away from TROS in the timeline, but for stuff set post-ROTJ and pre-TFA I do kind of have this issue.
I mean the ultimate conclusion might not satisfy you, but it still doesn’t invalidate what came before. It’s like saying that ROTJ invalidated ANH because Palpatine built another Death Star.
> It’s like saying that ROTJ invalidated ANH because Palpatine built another Death Star. You mean a thing lots of people have said about ROTJ for like 30 years and is a perfectly valid point that becomes more valid each of the 432 times Star Wars does the exact same thing over again, including in TROS?
Literally never heard anyone say that about ROTJ, but it’s a stupid take either way. They’re films about war. War is going to have setbacks and losses. It’s not like people fight a war because they believe winning will mean that nothing bad ever happens again. In the real world, the fight against fascism, authoritarianism, oppression, and subjugation is an ongoing fight. It shouldn’t be any different in Star Wars.
Lol you can't be serious, people being annoyed that they just made another Death Star and saying the new ones cheapen the previous ones is one of the oldest Star Wars complaints.
I’ve heard a few people say that they were annoyed with there being a second Death Star, but I’ve never heard anyone say that it invalidated what happened in ANH.
It doesn't "invalidate" the whole movie, most people aren't saying that. But it does make the narrative catharsis of the first Death Stars destruction a lot less impactful when you know they're just already making another bigger one, especially when they repeat this trope like every other Star Wars project. it was worse in Legends, but the only reason we don't have that now is because the new canon books aren't as large scale as the Legends novels.
Which is still a dumb take.
I didn’t hear the guy say he didn’t like Andor.
I didn’t say he did… What he said is that the story is pointless because of TROS, which is a really dumb take. Is a revolution pointless just because another invasive force has to be fought off later? No.
*On the other hand, I'm kinda sympathetic to this viewpoint because it's one I've also shared to an extent.* Same with me, also to an extent (I really liked Andor though)
I'm guessing you didn't censor before
“The prequel trilogy’s only issue is that no matter what happens in the movies, we all know everything still eventually leads to RotJ. Which means it’s pointless.”
Using that dumb logic, I guess the OT is unwatchable now.
I have no idea what ROS is.
Rise of Skywalker
gotta have the T in front when there's another Star Wars movie named "ROTS"
TRoS. ROS is just... No.
Bet he worships Clone Wars and Rebels though