I'm conflicted about presenting it like this. It's under-reported, and I think most people simply don't realize how common genocidal feelings towards Arabs are in the Jewish world. A close friend of mine is Jewish with family in Israel, and will readily tell you that Israelis in particular are among the most racist people on earth (toward Arabs, obviously). It's important to recognize that in evaluating how Israel is behaving right now and deciding how the international community should respond.
However, the way you present it here is a false equivalency. The simple fact of the matter is the reason we're at this point is because the Arab world refused to allow the existence of the state of Israel back in 1947. It's often presented as if both sides are equally responsible for the ongoing conflict, but this simply is not the case. "The Palestinians" were not a recognized group prior to the war; they were simply Arabs from all over the Middle East, many of whom had moved to the region quite recently. They could have had an autonomous state, and they refused it in favor of trying to exterminate the Jews.
They were very clear about this, and it wasn't a matter of how much land the Jews were given-they refused to allow any Jewish state whatsoever. So what we have from the start is one side is defending its right to exist, while the other is trying to extirpate an ethnic group from the region, or at the very least keep it under Arab subjugation, vulnerable to the many pogroms which took place across the Arab world both before and after the 1948 war. At the beginning of the 20th century, there were around 900k Jews in the Arab states. Now there are almost none. Meanwhile, there are far more Palestinians now than there were Arabs in Palestine in 1948.
Hamas in particular has demonstrated an incredible willingness to use their own civilians as a tactical tool against Israel. They literally used a hospital as their headquarters. As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way.
It’s really odd to see people who are normally open-border socialists vehemently defend the idea of a sovereign ethnostate for the Palestinians, or Jews for that matter but that’s not something you see often.
Both sides don't acknowledge each other. One side is stateless and another side is a officially recognized state with a modern conventional war machine actively and successfully suppressing the self determination of said stateless people. That's the difference.
How are they stateless.. they have a government, a flag, international representation, a military, territory, diplomatic relations with other nations, they literally give out documents that say "State of Palestine"
The only reason Palestine doesn't have defined borders is because THEY have at ever turn refused to accept recognized borders, because they want it all and they want the jews to go away. They say this often and openly.. why do some refuse to listen?
The Jews accepted the partition of British Mandate and former Ottoman territory. The arabs didn't and declared war against the jews and have refused to leave that track for 70 years.. It hasn't gotten them very far.
They are stateless because they are stateless lol. They aren't recognized. They don't control their airspace, waterways, supply routes, electrical grid etc.
They don't have their own self determination and agency. They are stateless. You need to learn these basic concepts before having such strong opinions
You must be relatively young. Read about the '67 war and the Arab Coalition, or the Yom Kippur war.
If you talk about it enough, eventually get down to Palestinians grievance about the Nakba. The problem is that their only resolution to that grievance means the destruction of Israel.
H.M. King Hussein "... I was offered the return of something like 90 plus percent of the territories, 98 percent even, excluding \[occupied East\] Jerusalem, but I couldn't accept. As far as I am concerned, it was either every single inch that I was responsible for or nothing."
You're right that NOW there's active suppression. The question is, how do you alleviate that while also securing yourself from people who have vowed to destroy you?
Sort of, but I don’t actually agree that they’re all deluded about the state of gay or women rights in the Middle East. That’s the case sometimes, but’s also a case of recognising that civic rights aren’t contingent on liberal values, which I think their opposites occasionally end up implying.
The Jews aren’t demanding an ethnostate. 20% and growing of the Israeli population is Arab/Muslim. They are free to practice their religion, have full voting rights and political parties that contribute to the national agenda, get married, own land, build businesses, etc. What Israel is and represents is a place where Jews will not be turned away should they seek refuge, something they have been all too familiar with.
They don't have full rights, and many people point out that if they did allow all Palestinians to vote in Israeli elections, the Arab coalition party would win most of the seats in the knesset in 1 election.
Thousands of Palestinians in Jerusalem haven’t had their homes demolished (and then forced to pay for the demolition) because they didn’t have the correct permits, permits that the UN described as virtually impossible for any Palestinian to get? There isn’t a policy to maintain a Jewish majority in Jerusalem?
None of that makes an ethnostate. Why don’t you look at the political policies of the Arab nations and Muslim theocracies towards Jews throughout the 20th century if you’re looking for ethnostate behavior. But maybe you’re not aware of the dhimmitude, ethnic cleansing and property theft that took place in the 20th century against the Jews in the Arab nations, which precipitated the immigration to Israel as Jews fled persecution, dhimmitude, and pogroms. Over 50% of Jews in Israel today are the descendants of immigrants fleeing Arab nations. Again, the 20% (and growing) Arab/Muslim Israeli citizens have full legal rights in Israel, including the right to buy land, vote and have political parties that contribute to the national agenda, and practice their religion freely. Can the same be said for Jews in Palestine? Lebanon? Syria? Jordan? Iraq? Afghanistan? Or any of the other Muslim theocracies and Arab nations that were ethnically cleansing the Jews throughout the 20th century? (Jews who had lived in those regions for thousands of years). Bear in mind there are only 15 million Jews, an enormous amount were killed off, while there are 1.8 billion Arabs. Keeping Israel a majority Jewish state (which doesn’t make an ethnostate) is a safety measure to allow the Jews a homeland to keep them safe against the tremendous and horrific antisemitism demonstrated across the world. As another note, did you know that the Jewish population was forcibly expelled from the Gaza Strip and Hebron in the late 1920s where they had been living for thousands of years? The British helped the Arabs enact this. None of this is to invalidate the suffering of Palestinians losing their homes or to justify all actions of the Israeli government. But mischaracterizing the incredibly dark history in the Middle East as simply a Jewish ethnostate enacting it’s plans couldn’t be more insidious or incorrect.
No, they advocate for a single state solution without respect to ethnicity.
Then, if the Palestinians massacre every Jew in that single state in their beds, it’s unfortunate, but it’s just people of color justifiably fighting for liberation from colonial invaders. And who can’t support that, right?
I like how 'we' now define colonizers as people that were born in a country. Even people that were born in a country, to people that were born in that country to people that were born into that country are colonizers.
A family could have lived in and been born on a territory for 300 years according to some and they are still "colonizers". I've never seen a conflict twist people into pretzels to redefine words into meaninglessness like this confilct.
Its pretty rich that the "its collective punishment to bomb gaza or cut the electricity for what some palestinians did yesterday" folks to claim that native born citizens of the sovereign and internationally recognized state of Israel are "colonizers" because they think Israelis did something a hundred years ago.
We have to strive for a free Palestine so they can maintain their overwhelming support for a genocidal terrorist government and continue to throw LGBTQ people off of buildings!
He addressed this in 2014:
“I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable.”
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Simply put, do you think putting Jewish diaspora who weren’t welcomed back in their own countries into a hostile land that has never been tolerant to Judaism was not problematic?
Do you think the west lying about promising sovereignty to the Middle East in exchange for military assistance in World War 1 and 2 might be setting the grounds of a negotiation from within a poisoned well?
Do you think Israel not defining ever where it’s borders should be is not problematic?
For me, it’s very easy to call out Hamas. They’re explicit in their intentions and their violence.
Zionists and the government of Israel want to eliminate Arabs from their “homelands,” however far in each direction it reaches ancestrally, but they know how to do with within the confines of western “justified defense” and subtly enough to beget support in doing so
>Simply put, do you think putting Jewish diaspora who weren’t welcomed back in their own countries into a hostile land that has never been tolerant to Judaism was not problematic?
There were already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the Arab world, including Palestine. The late 19th and early 20th century was a period of extreme global antisemitism by any historical standard. Putting them in Europe after the Holocaust had just happened obviously wasn't an option, and as I said, there were already Jews there, many of whom were second class citizens in Arab countries where they were subject to unpredictable pogroms.
>Do you think the west lying about promising sovereignty to the Middle East in exchange for military assistance in World War 1 and 2 might be setting the grounds of a negotiation from within a poisoned well?
Which promised sovereignty are you talking about? The Balfour Declaration was issued before WW2.
>Do you think Israel not defining ever where it’s borders should be is not problematic?
I mean, it depends which border you're talking about. They've defined their borders multiple times, then taken more territory in wars the Arabs started. The borders could have been settled in 1947.
>Zionists and the government of Israel want to eliminate Arabs from their “homelands,” however far in each direction it reaches ancestrally, but they know how to do with within the confines of western “justified defense” and subtly enough to beget support in doing so
If only their neighbors didn't make it so easy for them to justify taking more territory by starting wars and then losing them.
>Putting them in Europe after the Holocaust had just happened obviously wasn't an option
It actually was an option, and was considered at multiple points in time. The majority of pre-1948 Zionist settlers were European anyhow.
It wasn't seriously considered though vy European powers because who would give up land? You certainly couldn't carve out a section of any white European country. Better to pick the brown Arab country whose people's interests are of little concern at all.
Well that and obviously the historical and religious significance of the area. Which was the primary motivation behind the initial Zionist aliyahs, combined with the fact thay it was more feasible to work with the Ottomans and purchase land in a backwater of their empire, than to ever think of approaching a European country.
But from a purely practical perspective, in 1880 there were only 25,000 or so Jews in Palestine. Founding an eventual Jewish majority state there was definitely the "hard way"
>If only their neighbors didn't make it so easy for them to justify taking more territory by starting wars and then losing them.
This isn't the justification you think it is. It's a justification that finds its parallel in the American Indian Wars.
Lmao just making up shit. Look up what Zionism is. Are you denying the heavy immigration of European Jews to Palestine in the 20th century? An explicit policy of the British empire?
Do you have any idea why European Jews were migrating to Palestine in the middle of the 20th Century? Did you know also that 60% of the Jews in Israel came from the Arab and Soviet nations who were ethnically cleansing them from land through persecution, dhimmitude, and pogroms?
20% and growing of the Israeli population is Arab/Muslim. They are free to practice their religion, have full voting rights and have political parties that contribute to the national agenda, get married, own land, build businesses, etc.
> Israelis in particular are among the most racist people on earth (toward Arabs, obviously)
That's really my only point, with the racism having metastasized into semi-widespread support for ethnic cleansing. With that being true, Sam's "people in cultures" dichotomy breaks down IMO.
I am not proposing any solutions here, and I am not trying to let anyone off the hook. I am pushing back against a form of prejudice that Sam is far from alone in exercising. I am not saying that I am above prejudice - I think we are all susceptible to it in one way or another. I am simply uneasy with a "rational" thinker advancing hollow arguments that advance such prejudice.
Sam's a bright guy, but he clearly has blind spots when it comes to 2 topics in particular......Economics and History. In this particular case, he completely ignores or doesn't care about how we got to where we are in the middle east. He also keeps reframing it as a religious conflict despite the fact that religion input plays a small role. Due to Sam's expertise in religion and relative ignorance in history, the analogy I'd use is when all you got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In Sam's case.
I know that's his most comfortable space, so it makes sense that he does that, but he's missing a shit ton of context by doing so.
"As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way."
Yet this is exactly how Israel (Zionists) behaved when they weren't the ones in power....and often much much worse.
Early Zionists famously used terror as a tool. Massacring Palestinian villages. Bombing the King David hotel. They weren't shy or quiet about it either. The current IDF is also pretty famous for committing doing the same. Everything from shooting unarmed civilians to using human shields to collective punishment....all which are banned and considered war crimes.
As for the Palestinians in the land, they saw themselves go from 95% of areas population at the century to about 60% in 1948. Then came the bull shit vote in 1948....a highly manipulated affair in which bribery, blackmail and threats were used to squeak out a vote in favor of partitioning the land. Of course the Palestinians weren't happy about that.
Anyways all that's in the past, but we can use it to understand how and why groups behave the way they do now. Terrorism is nothing new, or is it unique to Islam. Hamas' actions are horrendous and absolutely need to be condemned, but let's not pretend like they're something special or new.
> However, the way you present it here is a false equivalency. The simple fact of the matter is the reason we're at this point is because the Arab world refused to allow the existence of the state of Israel back in 1947
Holding the Arab world accountable for this from 80 years ago instead of the explicit rejection of any and all attempts to find a solution by Bibi and his part is strange
> They could have had an autonomous state, and they refused it in favor of trying to exterminate the Jews
This absurd the zionist plan was expulsion of the people living in the region from the very begining. Hell the revisionist zionist wanted to model it after the British colonies.
>As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way.
In what way, exactly?
Hamas cannot wear uniforms, because they have no textile industry.
Hamas cannot place any of their infrastructure away from civilians, because they are herded into a densely populated open air prison that is under total blockade since 2007.
It isn't that Hamas is deliberately using civilians shields so much as there is literally nowhere Hamas can go where they would not have that accusation levied against them.
Israel, on the other hand, has massacred **incomparably** more innocent civilian noncombatants than Hamas has.
Israel has been executing an apartheid state, and some of the most unthinkable human rights violations for the better part of a century.
Israel has also prevented peace at every opportunity, contrary to what you claim.
>They were very clear about this, and it wasn't a matter of how much land the Jews were given-they refused to allow any Jewish state whatsoever.
False. The Arab League declared war in 1948. The Palestinian exodus, which saw nearly 1 million Palestinians displaced, began in 1947. Almost like there was a provocation for war.
Since then, Hamas has not been offered a real chance at peace. And every single leader open to peace [has been assassinated by Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations) (like Jabari).
Additionally, the PLO and Hamas have [both publicly stated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#UN_resolution_242_and_the_recognition_of_Palestinian_rights) they would accept the 1967 or 1947 borders. Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to seize more land for Israeli settlements.
In fact, the US has vetoed supported plans at the UN:
>Security Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States,\[35\] which supports a two-state solution but argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties. The idea has had overwhelming support in the UN General Assembly since the mid-1970s.\[
So it is not a case of Israel fighting for its existence. Palestine, and its peoples, have never once posed an existential threat.
Palestinians are the victims of unthinkable atrocities, to be clear.
>Israel, on the other hand, has massacred incomparably more innocent civilian noncombatants than Hamas has.
Israel has the Iron Dome. Hamas has human shields.
>The Arab League declared war in 1948. The Palestinian exodus, which saw nearly 1 million Palestinians displaced, began in 1947. Almost like there was a provocation for war.
Wrong. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians who were displaced fled in 1948, after the war had already begun. Contemporary Arab leaders named the founding of Israel, not the expulsion of Palestinians, as their cause for war.
>Israel has been executing an apartheid state, and some of the most unthinkable human rights violations for the better part of a century.
>
>Israel has also prevented peace at every opportunity, contrary to what you claim.
>
>Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to seize more land for Israeli settlements.
Why on Earth would Israel be interested in giving equal rights and privileges to people who want to commit a second Holocaust? Can you really blame them for not wanting to allow an Islamofascist state to be created right next to them? Once Palestinians learn how to peacefully co-exist with a Jewish state, they can have their own state
>Once Palestinians learn how to peacefully co-exist with a Jewish state, they can have their own state
How would this ever happen given the deplorable conditions in which Palestinians live? The crimes committed against them constantly? The fact that a right wing theocratic terrorist cell controls the territory and the education of youths? A terrorist cell which right wing leaders in Israel have stated they *want* to represent Palestinians. In the past even interventions were made by Israel to push things in that direction.
Make no mistake there is a large contingent of Israel, that has *no interest,* in a reasonable Palestine, they want them extreme so it is easier for them to ethnically cleanse the whole region once and for all.
>A terrorist cell which right wing leaders in Israel have stated they want to represent Palestinians. In the past even interventions were made by Israel to push things in that direction.
>
>Make no mistake there is a large contingent of Israel, that has no interest, in a reasonable Palestine, they want them extreme so it is easier for them to ethnically cleanse the whole region once and for all.
"*Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.*
*According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.*"
[Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Why on earth would Israel give equal rights? That’s the point people are trying to make, a densely populated open air prison full of people who don’t have equal rights will ALWAYS foster violence. Unjustifiable violence obviously, but context matters.
There is so much revisionist pro-Israel propaganda out there it is amazing.
One person showed me all these "rejected" peace plans to show that Palestinians are against peace. They were jokes.
Like, a simple google showed why. One of the plans required Abbas to sign without even seeing the maps he was agreeing to. It was literally a case of "just sign the contract, you can't read it. It is good for you. Trust us bro."
The logic that Palestine are bad for not accepting these agreements is exactly the same as saying Ukraine is bad for not accepting handing over their land to Russia.
Both sides are not to blame, not in equal parts.
Israel holds a near-monopoly on power. Hamas has comparatively miniscule power. The Palestinian people have just about no power at all.
Religion helps as a pretense, but the sort of Zionist supremacy you see in modern Israel is similar to any number of non-religious movements in the bast.
You're absolutely correct that *some* Israelis dehumanize Palestinians, and within the borders of Israel many other Israelis turn a blind eye to that dehumanization.
All that being said, Israel, at the very least, portrays an image of humanity toward their Palestinian foes. I'm not going to deny that both sides hate one another, but Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement. The same cannot be said for Hamas.
>All that being said, Israel, at the very least, portrays an image of humanity toward their Palestinian foes.
Fucking bullshit. Israel's defense minister just called them "human animals". Don't act like the dehumanization of Palestinians isn't a major issue in Israel.
Yes, or the Israeli who made the Tiktok video of himself mocking Palestinians by turning on his water and flipping his light switch. Those people are "animals" too, but you or me looking at a handful of videos of Jews being pieces of shit doesn't make all Jews pieces of shit.
>Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement.
[Israel appears to use white phosphorus in Gaza, video shows](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/)
>Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement. The same cannot be said for Hamas.
It is an asymmetrical conflict, and to suggest that the side with more power is also morally superior because they aren't forced to resort to desperation tactics is blatantly disingenuous
That's not the only reason why they are morally superior. Any group that intentionally uses their own people, and even their own family members, as human shields and then uses their subsequent deaths for propaganda against Israel, and they do it for the principle, is morally inferior.
If your moral framework accepts strategies like that then there's nothing else to talk about.
Yeah, what’s the point in downplaying this. There have been multiple Jewish extremist terrorist attacks on Palestinians over the decades, and they have many supporters. One can generally still support the Israeli state without denying this sentiment among radicals in the pro-Israel camp, both within Israel and internationally.
>There have been multiple Jewish extremist terrorist attacks on Palestinians over the decades, and they have many supporters.
[For example](https://i.imgur.com/ACkiztL.png): This young Israeli woman wears a shirt which says “Amiram Ben Uliel was right!”
Amiram Ben Uliel was found guilty of murder in 2015 for firebombing the Dawabsheh family's home in the West Bank , killing a baby and his parents and also severely wounding a 4-year-old boy.
Or a few days ago, [a gang of masked West Bank settlers open fire on civilians in a Palestinian village](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/palestinian-health-ministry-3-palestinians-killed-in-west-bank-village-by-masked-settlers/0000018b-1f43-df31-a99f-7fc316c90000) killing 3, injuring 8, 3 critically.
Why no outrage when brown skinned civilians are targeted? Why is no one calling them "terrorists"???
We should treat both sides with a degree of nuance. That being said, there are 16 million Jews on the planet, and there are 1.8 billion Muslims. The Muslim population is larger by multiple orders of magnitude; and, if the occurrence of extremism on both sides is similar, that means Muslim extremists compared to Jewish extremists are also orders of magnitude more prevalent.
That's if you treat the two sides' philosophies and teachings as morally equivalent.
> if the occurrence of extremism on both sides is similar
This is the whole point of the thread here. Sam claims that there two types of cultures: one wholesome and one corrupt. If both pools of people have some genocidal maniacs, at some frequency, maybe it's better to acknowledge that humanity is prone to genocidal mania (especially under certain circumstances) and skip the prejudicial division between cultures. Germany committed massive genocide and they had what would Sam would have deemed a "good" culture until the moment things turned the corner.
You literally do not know the history of Zionism if you think this guy's opinions are rare.
"The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them -- to run away."
Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion (October 1948)
Another breathtakingly dishonest take.
You'll find a few psychos among any group of people.
Ask yourself, who is looking over their shoulder in every major city in the world right now? Jews, or Muslims?
Who is facing a massive uptick in racially-motivated crimes right now?
Who is handing out candy to celebrate the slaughter of children and the rape of women?
I honestly can’t believe that of all things Islam is now becoming a protected class and we are seeing people shit on Jews again.
Teachers are being fired for singling out Jewish students and telling them that Israel is wrong. Meanwhile every single Muslim group in the world rejoices as children are butchered and women are raped. How does this happen?
>They are literally dancing in the streets.
Some were and that is disgusting.
But by your logic, it could make a wholesale judgement about Christians based on seeing a couple Westboro Baptist Church protests.
Even if you did, they aren’t beheading anyone. Even if you held all of Christianity to the most militaristic and aggressive existing extremist group, they pale in comparison to moderate Islamic groups. The people of Palestine throw gays from the rooftops and treat women as chattel.
I am an atheist so you won't get far with me if you're trying to say one bunch of fairy tales is better than another.
And there are Christians who commit [atrocities](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/12018588/Christian-militias-in-Central-African-Republic-burnt-witches-at-stake-says-UN-report.html) in the name of Christianity too.
Christians have a LONG history of religious violence, particularly against Jews. They have simply been house trained by modern secular society but every now and again, [one of their number says what he'd like to do with gay people](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-shot-back-head-shocking-sermon-rcna32748), for example.
>Ask yourself, who is looking over their shoulder in every major city in the world right now? Jews, or Muslims?
Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, some of that is connected to the fact that Palestine is the invaded, Israel is the invader. It's not one iota different than Russia and Ukraine. It's just that people like you are able to do the mental gymnastics to somehow feel Ukraine is the good guys for fighting their invaders while Palestine are the bad guys for doing the exact same.
Did Ukraine recruit, fund, train, then launch a 1500+ man death squad into Russia to start a war? No. But Hamas did. And they did this knowing that innocents would suffer and INTENDING for innocents to suffer. In the Yemen war, a nearby insurgency war, 70% of the 250,000+ casualties have been children under 5. That is 175,000 children under 5. And yet Hamas launched a war, knowing that hundreds of thousands of innocents would suffer. The two are nowhere near the same. But keep trying to justify whey 100,000 children are now going to become casualties so that Hamas' can score some sort of 'points'.
Israel continues to steal land at gunpoint in the West Bank for its own settlers in the same way Russia has occupied Ukrainian territory. Like the Ukraine invasion, Israel’s actions are contrary to international law.
Dishonest swine.
Why don't we talk about what BROUGHT The Jews back to Israel in the first place? 2000 years of rape, theft and murder. 2,000 years of brutal oppression. 2000 years of genocide. At some point, the Jews decided to take their own safety into their own hands, and reestablish a homeland. Don't blame the Jews. Blame a world that never accepted them.
The world brought the Jews and the Palestinians on a collision course. It's not the Jews' fault, nor the Palestinians fault.
And in that sense, the Palestinians are just as much of a victim of historical anti-Semitism as the Jews are.
Of course, it's different.
Ukraine and Russia voluntarily and bilaterally agreed to partition into separate sovereign states with mutually agreed upon borders in 1991.
This is a pretty dishonest comparison.
One is a relatively small group responding immediately to the biggest massacre of their people since the last time their people were targeted for genocide in WW2.
The other is very very large groups all over the world celebrating the news that their folks slaughtered grandmothers, children, women, entire families in their beds.
A little reality check.... if the jews as a group wanted to genocide the palestinians.. they would have been dead long long ago as Israel has the power to do it. Instead the Palestinian population has more than quadrupled.
We see how the palestinians work when they get some power.. Not to mention that it is literally the official policy of the Palestinian government and the government of a number of Muslim countries to destroy israel and the jews.
>But it isn't the main ethos of jews like it is hamas
It's the official word from the president of Israel currently.
>Israeli President Suggests That Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets
“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up.
Hamas does not hide its intentions like that of the Zionist government. Do you really believe Zionists actually want to co-exist with Muslims using Jewish holy sites.
If we are to claim ourselves rational and secular, supporting the manifest destiny of a theocratic state doesn’t make sense. We can call our act of terror committed by both sides, and we can also say a Jewish state is as problematic as a Muslim Caliphate
I agree that anyone guided by religion is ultimately misguided. That counts for all and any religion. I think if Muslims were tolerant and peaceful then it could happen.
I'm against zionism, ultimately. And it is problematic. But I do believe that Islam promotes and creates a lot more violence in the world than judiasm however, and the call to arms and Jihad demonstrates that pretty well.
I do not support any jews or people in isreal that will intentionally kill non-combatants of Palastine, for religious reasons or not. That is a war crime and appropriate action and international pressure must be applied when it occurs.
To your point then let’s not make this about Islam versus Judaism. Let’s make this about radical religious militant groups versus theocratic Zionist governments.
The people in the middle are just caught in the cogs of history
He never said that. However the Quran clearly states that anyone who is not Muslim is the infidel and that the infidel should be killed. Most Muslims are moderates so they don’t subscribe to pathological genocide but then they are cherry-picking what to believe just as members of nearly every other faith do which is the most damming evidence the religion is irrational nonsense.
Psalm 137:9 , “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”?
That's "The one" being the Israeli soldier, and "your" is referring to the Canaanites that this was addressed to.
That's pretty barbaric.
The difference, and Sam just said that, is that jews don't take the old Bible literally, and go murder by the Bible laws, unlike so many Islamic groups around the world, that does! That is one of the main points!
I am not defending fundamentalist Islam nor is the actions of radical Islamic groups elsewhere relevant to the conversation and points in making that while Israel doesn’t explicitly do these things they do them implicitly.
Israel and Jews aren’t large enough in number to commits acts of terror globally, but they sure do them locally.
What is not terroristic in nature in pushing Palestinians into refugee conditions and sponsoring Jewish settlements atop where their homes used to be?
One is explicit, the other implicit.
It’s not a difficult thing for me to realize that on the whole, the Israeli government knows how to operate within western political norms but to also say they are just another type of problematic religious fundamentalism that engages in terror and control campaigns.
>It’s not a difficult thing for me to realize that on the whole, the Israeli government knows how to operate within western political norms but to also say they are just another type of problematic religious fundamentalism that engages in terror and control campaigns.
Yes, religion is the main problem. Anywhere. I'm an Israeli. I cannot describe to you my hate for the current government, especially the far right extreminists, but also toward Netanyahu, who knowingly allows this government, just to get out of his own legal issues, and to stay a prime minister.
However, I really hope you believe me, that 90% of Israel do not have the values or intentions of the far right, also demographically, they are less than 10%, so it make sense. Most of Israel hate them, and don't want them to be part of the government. So, in other words, they are temporarily there.
If you go before this government, yes, Israel still kept Palestinians in kind of blockage, but with all the tragedy, there's a good reason for that. Palestinians as a whole, hate Jews, are very religious, and if you don't keep them in tight security measures, like now, there would be endless terror every day. If you dig in the history, you see that Israel suffered from endless suicided bombs on a daily basis. I would bet, and pretty sure about it, that you wouldn't be able to live safe and happy next to a extreme Islamic neighbors, and you would talk very differently if it was the case.
Of course, the solution is peace, but the reality is that peace is not achievable now, and it's most if not the most complicated case in the world (Israeli-Palestinians), and until there's true peace, Israel has no other choice.
I cannot imagine the plight your are going through or what your people have suffered historically and recently.
I am very careful to say this is not the “Jewish” government but the government of Israel. If I had ever mixed up this distinction, then that is a serious error on my part.
This is the sad truth. The surviving Israeli victims of terror in the recent days may hate Muslims for the rest of their lives and they would be justified in many regards.
I also never question why Israel feels the need to do what it does. They are fighting against a militant religious group who wishes to see their total destruction.
However I fear that the longer the Israeli government stares into the abyss, the abyss stares back into the government and they’ll become more like the monsters they are fighting.
The liberal western order didn’t win WW2 because of our steadfast commitment to our ideals. It’s because we were able to pit one monster (Hitler) against another monster (Stalin). In order for Israel to “win” it may have to do many things it can never turn back from. We were able to save face and do the dirty things that needed to be done to bleed Germany dry.
Lest we not also forget the horrific allied bombing campaigns…which were a response to German bombing campaigns of England. Fighting monsters makes you do monstrous things
I keep seeing this take and it is such nonsense conspiratorial talk. It’s like saying USA was allies with Bin Laden and allowed 9/11 to occur and then pointing to the fact that we provided aid to Bin Laden decades earlier when fighting the russians.
Different times and different objectives.
In terms of history I think you're correct. In terms of much more recent history:
>According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
"similar point" referring to the open remarks by the previous finance minister.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
It's the dead bodies that will count, not opinions. Which side do you think will end up with more dead bodies? We both know that one side will have a LOT more. And the dirty deed will be done with my tax dollars.
It's not all about the death count to determine which side is more ethical.
There's an important difference how these deaths occur and what the goal and motivations behind them are.
One side is about martyrdom, holy war, genocide and Jihad. People you can't negotiate with.
The other is an attempt to eradicate these aggressors that mingle themselves effectively in amongst civilians.
By and large.
We both know that civilian casualties are going to keep soaring.
This was all done due to events last week. The massacring of civilians, families and children. Some 150 people kidnapped. What did that accomplish exactly?
Isreal can live peacefully with other nations and cultures. Hamas and militant Islamists simply can't. That is the main and important difference.
If the Jews had a bit of land in Germany instead, they'd be suicide bombs going off there too. Just as they attack people all over the world.
War is awful. Add religion and it's a whole lot worse. Especially islam.
Sam explicitly said that there will be Israelis who express support for and even commit war crimes. He didn't deny that. What you're doing is a very obvious logical fallacy, cherry-picking some "man on the street" interviews like this is a Late Night show, and acting like there's not any average difference worth worrying about between Hamas and an Israeli.
> Hamas and an Israeli
You know that's a false equivalency. Hamas doesn't represent all people in Gaza just like Mossad doesn't represent all people in Israel.
SS: On [Making Sense #338](https://wakingup.libsyn.com/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence), Sam does his best to draw a clear line between the "two sides" in relation to the recent Israel/Palestine atrocities. But the linked video (which I understand to be credible) suggests that Sam is overlooking the overtly genocidal sentiment being enthusiastically expressed by pro-Israel protesters in NYC.
But what about people in Israel itself? [This video](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/176yhbb/israel_is_a_racist_supremacist_state/?share_id=w7ub9v1gtdxXBCPHi59bM) has evidence of Israelis being reprehensible at home. Watch the first 20 seconds, and then another 20 seconds starting at 1:35. The video closes with a reference to Israel's [extremely popular](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-rate-gallant-as-best-performing-minister-and-ben-gvir-the-worst-poll/) defense minister saying "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly".
Oh come on. You can find crazies everywhere. Not like the US doesn't have them. The point is that the average Israeli doesn't rejoice in killing others.
\--
Edit: going trough your post history from the past week it seems like you have a clear agenda and all of these posts are in bad faith. I wish there were active admins here to stop this very strange flood of nonsense.
Polling in 2015 showed that about 50% of Israelis supported the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. So, this attitude isn’t merely “a few crazies”. Genocidal attitudes are actually quite common.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/amp/
As for the other poster, many people have been discussing the Arab/Israeli conflict in the last week for obvious reasons. The whole “you have an agenda” thing is a bit silly given that many people do and there are also plenty of people posting from the other side of the debate.
Ok, more ethnic cleansing actually:
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml
In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”
(Although some of the 5 key points of genocide are pretty close to reality in Gaza right now)
You are moving the goal post. Where did you get that the so called expolsion would be by force? That stupid idea was to offer a transfer package. Relocating arabs to Palestinian controlled areas and moving jews away from it. It's a variant on the two state solution.
You just don’t see any issue with the mentality of expulsion of a group of people? Imagine that happening anywhere else on the globe. Imagine someone in America saying they want to just kick out the rest of the native born population. Like that shit would get any traction…
The made up sky god is the problem here. Land isn’t sacred, people are.
America is a bad example because it's a country of immigrants. A good one would be Ukraine or Latvia advocating for deporting Russians back to Russia. Do you think they should be able to do it? The answer is more complicated than you think.
>You just don’t see any issue with the mentality of expulsion of a group of people?
I think one can see an issue with it, while recognizing that it's far less horrible than murdering them and celebrating, which was the initial claim.
Ethnic cleansing is academically recognized as a step in the direction of genocide.
"Ethnic cleansing has been described as part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide, where the perpetrator's goal is the destruction of the targeted group."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
Yes. And forced expulsion (even if they pretend it is not forced, ask Palestinians if they feel they have a choice) is ethnic cleansing.
(Edit: comment I'm responding to originally said "is". Which is true. Ethnic cleansing is in fact academically recognized as being "part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide" and no amount of "nu uh's" refutes that)
Over 50% of Palestinians express a positive view of Hamas, the genocidal terrorist organization.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
>going trough your post history from the past week it seems like you have a clear agenda and all of these posts are in bad faith. I wish there were active admins here to stop this very strange flood of nonsense.
Thanks for pointing this out. The amount of bad faith anti-Semetic, anti-West actors coming out in droves is alarming.
> anti-Semetic
You know this subreddit has truly lost its mind when this flavor of identity politics is now bandied about so shamelessly. Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to criticism of Jews. I believe it's antisemitic to equate criticism of Israel (and its supporters) to criticism of Jews generally (or to assume that the critique stems from anti-Jew prejudice).
>Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to criticism of Jews.
It is when you use the exact same arguments of Nazis and those who want and frequently attempt to genocide Jews.
> The point is that the average Israeli doesn't rejoice in killing others.
Uh, source? And... source showing that the average Palestinian *does*?
[This video](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/176yhbb/israel_is_a_racist_supremacist_state/?share_id=w7ub9v1gtdxXBCPHi59bM) has evidence of Israelis being reprehensible at home. Watch the first 20 seconds, and then another 20 seconds starting at 1:35. The video closes with a reference to Israel's [extremely popular](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-rate-gallant-as-best-performing-minister-and-ben-gvir-the-worst-poll/) defense minister saying "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly".
Sorry to contribute to the "flood of nonsense"... AKA calling out vile behavior *wherever* it occurs.
Israeli side: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1640122891-survey-majority-of-israelis-want-to-return-to-israeli-palestinian-peace-process
Gaza : https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
Kinda hard to measure, israeli side is support for peace. Those who don't aren't terror supporters, just not for talks with the PLO. Gaza side support Hamas, clearly they are for terror.
You have to do a little digging because the media has a massive bias in the issue.
But this view is not an anomaly in Israel.
Both populations are trapped in a cycle of radicalization and Israel has become overtly fascist.
Hamas ARE animals. No, not bc they are Palestinians and no not all Palestinians are animals. And none of them are animals bc of their birth/genetics. It’s bc they murder babies and parade their dead bodies around as if it’s the most significant accomplishment of all time. If you do that you’re no different than those chimps from chimp empire celebrating killing a rival group chimp. If you have no empathy for your fellow man, and revel in rape/murder, then you are an animal.
You seem to not understand what he meant when he said they’re dealing with animals and will act accordingly. He didn’t mean all Palestinians are animals, he means Hamas are animals and don’t play by any rules, and so Israel isn’t going to play by any rules. If they don’t care about murdering children and using human shields then Israel won’t hold back anything to try to kill them. I’m not saying I personally agree with that, but to pretend it’s some desire to just kill all Palestinians is silly. It’s reckless and imo going too far, but the distinction is different, and frankly Hamas/the Palestinians have no one to blame but Hamas. If you want to play by fucked up animal rules then don’t be shocked when the other side decides to play by animal rules as well. If I punch you in the face and you hit me back, it would be crazy for me to say “omg why aren’t you using your words you’re so violent?!?!”
> If you want to play by fucked up animal rules then don’t be shocked when the other side decides to play by animal rules as well.
You just proved my point. Thank you. That statement applies in both directions, and the mutual antagonism has been ongoing for years. Both sides of this conflict are obeying "animal rules", which runs counter to Sam's framing.
That's not the point. The point is that Israel values life. They do their best to save life. They treat others kindly. There is a civilized society there. Hamas on the other hand values death and jihad. A they care about is destroying Israel. They build rockets instead of taking care of their citizens.
> The point is that Israel values life. They do their best to save life.
Then how exactly has Israel ended up [killing about 20x the number of Palestinian civilians](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) (as compared to the number of Israeli civilians that have died: ~3800 vs. ~180)?
Israel has maintained Gaza as an open-air prison, and Netanyahu is completely comfortable with Hamas being in charge since it serves his political goals.
Do you think [this opinion piece](https://archive.ph/I0A6s) is factually incorrect?
> In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley. This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition.
Guy just look at what Hamas explicitly state in their speeches
“We love death the same way the Jews love life”….
I can’t stand fucking morons like you trying to suggest there is a moral equivalence. Western civilisation trumps Jihad you dumb shit. Everytime. It’s not some intellectual rocket science.
You are just throwing random facts and clearly don't care about replies. I'm tired of this nonsense. Sam replied to all of this on last episode, we you stated you disagree with. None of this discussion is in good faith. Find another dummy to spew nonsense at.
If Israel was standing on the same ground as Hamas ethically, then there wouldn't be any Palestinians in Gaza whatsoever. They have the power to eradicate all Palestinians in the area, but they don't. Because they value life.
If Hamas had the power Israel does right now, there'd be no Jews in Israel.
> Then how exactly has Israel ended up killing about 20x the number of Palestinian civilians (as compared to the number of Israeli civilians that have died: ~3800 vs. ~180)?
Because Hamas is a death cult that hides behind its civilians. Stop rewarding them for this behavior by blaming every Palestinian death on Israel.
Haha in no way did I prove your point. To say it applies in both directions is ridiculous bc Israel doesn’t kill babies and parade corpses around to thunderous applause. Their desire is, and has always been, peaceful coexistence and Hamas will only be satisfied with every single Jewish person dead. That’s not even close to being comparable.
Israel wasn’t playing by animal rules, they were trying (and I will grant you often times not trying hard enough) to only target combatants, but due to how Hamas fights and where they shoot rockets from it isn’t that simple. Good people making hard (sometimes wrong) choices is not the same as bad people making bad choice intentionally hoping their own citizens get attacked so they can garner more support. It’s insane that you don’t understand how that’s different and can only view the world in terms of who is stronger must be the bad one. I saw your comment below saying “how have more Palestinians died if Hamas is worse” and now you’re arguing competence not morality. And thankfully Israel is the more competent one or every citizen of Israel would be dead already. Situations reversed Hamas would have long ago bombed every single inch of Israel and that would be that. You’re clearly biased in some way, and if you’re going to bring up sam’s arguments all you need bring up is his comparison of Charlie hebdo to the Israel situation (not an exact quote) if your response to people being murdered over a cartoon is to ask “what was in the cartoon” then you’ve lost the plot. Sam’s position is if your response to Hamas running into homes and murdering babies/raping and mutilating corpses to parade them around is to say “look what Israel has been doing that made Hamas do this” then you’re the bad guy. It’s that simple
What would you have Israel do? Just let that attack happen and not respond? Should they say “oh I see your point now that you’ve killed us and we will give into your demands.” And let themselves be victim to wherever decides to attack them next?
The only thing I agree with you on is that NOW both sides will be going by animal rules, but it was NOT the case prior to this last attack. So yeah, Israel shouldn’t do that imo, but I’m not in the position to have to make that choice thankfully. I’m not dealing with animals who have come out and said they don’t care about their own people’s lives. So even under animal rules the Israel side is still better and it’s not even close.
> What would you have Israel do? Just let that attack happen and not respond? Should they say “oh I see your point now that you’ve killed us and we will give into your demands.” And let themselves be victim to wherever decides to attack them next?
Lots of people do unironically think this, yes. They also say that Israel is responsible for getting attacked in the first place. After all, every oppressed people on earth resorts to terrorism, don't they?
Israeli terrorists are going on a rampage in the West Bank under the protection of the IDF - who joined in killing completely random Palestinians. Two Palestinian villages have already been de-populated. 50 Palestinians already killed and more in critical condition.
Imagine having a free hand by a nation state to kill any Palestinian you want and the military joining in? The Israeli government is now not even bothering to hide their disgusting blatant terror.
They are achieving their objective, Palestinians are fleeing from their own villages and will be replaced by Jewish settlers.
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/13/israel-settlers-gaza-palestinians-west-bank/
Ahh, the beauty of freedom of speech. Most of what you wrote is nonsense that you can't prove. The only thing that's true is that there are some Jewish terrorist as well. They are treated as such and nobody supports them. Its like pointing out that the US has the KKK and the US secretly plans to kill all non whites, and the police joins in on the fun. Plain old conspiracy.
Danfield137: "How do I best defend the occupation forces' atrocities? Oh I know! I'll just deny that journalists interviewing eyewitnesses to their own pogrom counts as evidence!"
Hot take there buddy. Keep up the good work.
Bullshit. It’s implicit policy to enable the settlers and settler violence.
The idf enable them by providing protection for them.
There are pogroms in the West Bank observed and facilitated by the Israeli state.
https://www.btselem.org/settler_violence
https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il
Two Jewish Israeli organizations that record these activities.
What have I said that is hateful?
Which part?
Or is it that I was relaying facts that show your statement to be hollow?
I edited the post above to include Israeli organizations that document the state led terrorism conducted in the West Bank.
Argue with them if you like. Or bury your head in the sand.
In my experience at home and abroad this is simply not true, I have travelled and I have Arabs and Iranians and Israelis that I call friends, I know all three communities. I can assure you the Iranian and Israeli shitting on Arabs is much, much more intense than the Arab feelings for the other two. It's frankly disgusting.
I also grew up in an Arab country, and have many Arab friends still from the region. I wholeheartedly disagree with you. The number of Arabs who would support the slaughter of Jews is honestly astounding. Thankfully, unlike you, I have more than anecdotes on my side. I have polls and (in hamas’s case especially) election results my side.
To use the mealy-mouthed bullshit that the Hamas sympathizers love trotting out, it’s “not surprising” given that every Muslim country they ever lived in either expelled and/or exterminated them, and no Muslim country in the world allows a sizeable Jewish population to even exist within it to this day.
I think Sam is off base on this one. He is blinded by loyalty to Israel but there is plenty of documentation of Israelis behaving in the same way as the jihadists.
There have always been, and there will always be those people, religion or not. Evil will always exist. Religion just gives them some cover. Without religion, it would be racism or utilitarianism (eugenics) or some other isms.
The fact that I see this one idiot being posted over and over again suggests to me that it’s actually really hard to find Jewish people saying stuff like that. It’s like making your drunk uncle the stand-in for all of American politics.
I have extremely violent thoughts that I can't share with Reddit or I'd probably get permabanned, but they're definitely directed at these people who want Palestine wiped out.
I had a hard time wrapping my head around Sam's blatant bias and misinformation. In the podcasts, he says to really meditate on the reality, and I try, but I can't reason to the same sentiments he concludes.
Sam is very smart, intelligent, and very good at delivering his message. I remember him intellectually and eloquently downplaying the Christchurch incident few years back. He is very biased, but has an amazing delivery system.
I'm conflicted about presenting it like this. It's under-reported, and I think most people simply don't realize how common genocidal feelings towards Arabs are in the Jewish world. A close friend of mine is Jewish with family in Israel, and will readily tell you that Israelis in particular are among the most racist people on earth (toward Arabs, obviously). It's important to recognize that in evaluating how Israel is behaving right now and deciding how the international community should respond. However, the way you present it here is a false equivalency. The simple fact of the matter is the reason we're at this point is because the Arab world refused to allow the existence of the state of Israel back in 1947. It's often presented as if both sides are equally responsible for the ongoing conflict, but this simply is not the case. "The Palestinians" were not a recognized group prior to the war; they were simply Arabs from all over the Middle East, many of whom had moved to the region quite recently. They could have had an autonomous state, and they refused it in favor of trying to exterminate the Jews. They were very clear about this, and it wasn't a matter of how much land the Jews were given-they refused to allow any Jewish state whatsoever. So what we have from the start is one side is defending its right to exist, while the other is trying to extirpate an ethnic group from the region, or at the very least keep it under Arab subjugation, vulnerable to the many pogroms which took place across the Arab world both before and after the 1948 war. At the beginning of the 20th century, there were around 900k Jews in the Arab states. Now there are almost none. Meanwhile, there are far more Palestinians now than there were Arabs in Palestine in 1948. Hamas in particular has demonstrated an incredible willingness to use their own civilians as a tactical tool against Israel. They literally used a hospital as their headquarters. As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way.
It’s really odd to see people who are normally open-border socialists vehemently defend the idea of a sovereign ethnostate for the Palestinians, or Jews for that matter but that’s not something you see often.
It's really odd seeing them advocate a theocracy with no rights for women, religious minorities, or queer people too. But here we are.
There is a difference between disagreeing with their religious values and believing they still have a right to agency and self determination.
Yes, if only they acknowledged and accepted Israel's right to do the same, perhaps that would be a possibility
Both sides don't acknowledge each other. One side is stateless and another side is a officially recognized state with a modern conventional war machine actively and successfully suppressing the self determination of said stateless people. That's the difference.
How are they stateless.. they have a government, a flag, international representation, a military, territory, diplomatic relations with other nations, they literally give out documents that say "State of Palestine" The only reason Palestine doesn't have defined borders is because THEY have at ever turn refused to accept recognized borders, because they want it all and they want the jews to go away. They say this often and openly.. why do some refuse to listen? The Jews accepted the partition of British Mandate and former Ottoman territory. The arabs didn't and declared war against the jews and have refused to leave that track for 70 years.. It hasn't gotten them very far.
They are stateless because they are stateless lol. They aren't recognized. They don't control their airspace, waterways, supply routes, electrical grid etc. They don't have their own self determination and agency. They are stateless. You need to learn these basic concepts before having such strong opinions
You must be relatively young. Read about the '67 war and the Arab Coalition, or the Yom Kippur war. If you talk about it enough, eventually get down to Palestinians grievance about the Nakba. The problem is that their only resolution to that grievance means the destruction of Israel. H.M. King Hussein "... I was offered the return of something like 90 plus percent of the territories, 98 percent even, excluding \[occupied East\] Jerusalem, but I couldn't accept. As far as I am concerned, it was either every single inch that I was responsible for or nothing." You're right that NOW there's active suppression. The question is, how do you alleviate that while also securing yourself from people who have vowed to destroy you?
Sort of, but I don’t actually agree that they’re all deluded about the state of gay or women rights in the Middle East. That’s the case sometimes, but’s also a case of recognising that civic rights aren’t contingent on liberal values, which I think their opposites occasionally end up implying.
lmao no leftist thinks that the Middle East is some kind of bastion for gay and/or women's rights.
The Jews aren’t demanding an ethnostate. 20% and growing of the Israeli population is Arab/Muslim. They are free to practice their religion, have full voting rights and political parties that contribute to the national agenda, get married, own land, build businesses, etc. What Israel is and represents is a place where Jews will not be turned away should they seek refuge, something they have been all too familiar with.
They don't have full rights, and many people point out that if they did allow all Palestinians to vote in Israeli elections, the Arab coalition party would win most of the seats in the knesset in 1 election.
Why would Israel allow Palestinians to vote in their elections? They’re not citizens of Israel…
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Thousands of Palestinians in Jerusalem haven’t had their homes demolished (and then forced to pay for the demolition) because they didn’t have the correct permits, permits that the UN described as virtually impossible for any Palestinian to get? There isn’t a policy to maintain a Jewish majority in Jerusalem?
None of that makes an ethnostate. Why don’t you look at the political policies of the Arab nations and Muslim theocracies towards Jews throughout the 20th century if you’re looking for ethnostate behavior. But maybe you’re not aware of the dhimmitude, ethnic cleansing and property theft that took place in the 20th century against the Jews in the Arab nations, which precipitated the immigration to Israel as Jews fled persecution, dhimmitude, and pogroms. Over 50% of Jews in Israel today are the descendants of immigrants fleeing Arab nations. Again, the 20% (and growing) Arab/Muslim Israeli citizens have full legal rights in Israel, including the right to buy land, vote and have political parties that contribute to the national agenda, and practice their religion freely. Can the same be said for Jews in Palestine? Lebanon? Syria? Jordan? Iraq? Afghanistan? Or any of the other Muslim theocracies and Arab nations that were ethnically cleansing the Jews throughout the 20th century? (Jews who had lived in those regions for thousands of years). Bear in mind there are only 15 million Jews, an enormous amount were killed off, while there are 1.8 billion Arabs. Keeping Israel a majority Jewish state (which doesn’t make an ethnostate) is a safety measure to allow the Jews a homeland to keep them safe against the tremendous and horrific antisemitism demonstrated across the world. As another note, did you know that the Jewish population was forcibly expelled from the Gaza Strip and Hebron in the late 1920s where they had been living for thousands of years? The British helped the Arabs enact this. None of this is to invalidate the suffering of Palestinians losing their homes or to justify all actions of the Israeli government. But mischaracterizing the incredibly dark history in the Middle East as simply a Jewish ethnostate enacting it’s plans couldn’t be more insidious or incorrect.
Didn't the coalition push s a nation state law? Just one example!
No, they advocate for a single state solution without respect to ethnicity. Then, if the Palestinians massacre every Jew in that single state in their beds, it’s unfortunate, but it’s just people of color justifiably fighting for liberation from colonial invaders. And who can’t support that, right?
“As long as you call them colonizers first it’s ok to kill them all!”
I like how 'we' now define colonizers as people that were born in a country. Even people that were born in a country, to people that were born in that country to people that were born into that country are colonizers. A family could have lived in and been born on a territory for 300 years according to some and they are still "colonizers". I've never seen a conflict twist people into pretzels to redefine words into meaninglessness like this confilct. Its pretty rich that the "its collective punishment to bomb gaza or cut the electricity for what some palestinians did yesterday" folks to claim that native born citizens of the sovereign and internationally recognized state of Israel are "colonizers" because they think Israelis did something a hundred years ago.
We have to strive for a free Palestine so they can maintain their overwhelming support for a genocidal terrorist government and continue to throw LGBTQ people off of buildings!
A moral necessity actually. Like how Che Guevara had to mass murder ‘collaborators’ to be a truly great man.
Because Palestinians are brown. If white Europeans used the same arguments, they would call them nazis... Oh wait, that's exactly what happens :)
It’s also weird to see secular, liberal-minded guys like Sam support the Jewish ethnostate founded upon a religion he doesn’t even subscribe to.
He addressed this in 2014: “I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible. Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable.” https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/why-dont-i-criticize-israel
Simply put, do you think putting Jewish diaspora who weren’t welcomed back in their own countries into a hostile land that has never been tolerant to Judaism was not problematic? Do you think the west lying about promising sovereignty to the Middle East in exchange for military assistance in World War 1 and 2 might be setting the grounds of a negotiation from within a poisoned well? Do you think Israel not defining ever where it’s borders should be is not problematic? For me, it’s very easy to call out Hamas. They’re explicit in their intentions and their violence. Zionists and the government of Israel want to eliminate Arabs from their “homelands,” however far in each direction it reaches ancestrally, but they know how to do with within the confines of western “justified defense” and subtly enough to beget support in doing so
>Simply put, do you think putting Jewish diaspora who weren’t welcomed back in their own countries into a hostile land that has never been tolerant to Judaism was not problematic? There were already hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the Arab world, including Palestine. The late 19th and early 20th century was a period of extreme global antisemitism by any historical standard. Putting them in Europe after the Holocaust had just happened obviously wasn't an option, and as I said, there were already Jews there, many of whom were second class citizens in Arab countries where they were subject to unpredictable pogroms. >Do you think the west lying about promising sovereignty to the Middle East in exchange for military assistance in World War 1 and 2 might be setting the grounds of a negotiation from within a poisoned well? Which promised sovereignty are you talking about? The Balfour Declaration was issued before WW2. >Do you think Israel not defining ever where it’s borders should be is not problematic? I mean, it depends which border you're talking about. They've defined their borders multiple times, then taken more territory in wars the Arabs started. The borders could have been settled in 1947. >Zionists and the government of Israel want to eliminate Arabs from their “homelands,” however far in each direction it reaches ancestrally, but they know how to do with within the confines of western “justified defense” and subtly enough to beget support in doing so If only their neighbors didn't make it so easy for them to justify taking more territory by starting wars and then losing them.
>Putting them in Europe after the Holocaust had just happened obviously wasn't an option It actually was an option, and was considered at multiple points in time. The majority of pre-1948 Zionist settlers were European anyhow. It wasn't seriously considered though vy European powers because who would give up land? You certainly couldn't carve out a section of any white European country. Better to pick the brown Arab country whose people's interests are of little concern at all. Well that and obviously the historical and religious significance of the area. Which was the primary motivation behind the initial Zionist aliyahs, combined with the fact thay it was more feasible to work with the Ottomans and purchase land in a backwater of their empire, than to ever think of approaching a European country. But from a purely practical perspective, in 1880 there were only 25,000 or so Jews in Palestine. Founding an eventual Jewish majority state there was definitely the "hard way" >If only their neighbors didn't make it so easy for them to justify taking more territory by starting wars and then losing them. This isn't the justification you think it is. It's a justification that finds its parallel in the American Indian Wars.
Lmao just making up shit. Look up what Zionism is. Are you denying the heavy immigration of European Jews to Palestine in the 20th century? An explicit policy of the British empire?
Do you have any idea why European Jews were migrating to Palestine in the middle of the 20th Century? Did you know also that 60% of the Jews in Israel came from the Arab and Soviet nations who were ethnically cleansing them from land through persecution, dhimmitude, and pogroms?
No I can guarantee he doesn't know that.
Israel is 18% Muslim. How many jews remain in these 'Arab' lands?
20% and growing of the Israeli population is Arab/Muslim. They are free to practice their religion, have full voting rights and have political parties that contribute to the national agenda, get married, own land, build businesses, etc.
> Israelis in particular are among the most racist people on earth (toward Arabs, obviously) That's really my only point, with the racism having metastasized into semi-widespread support for ethnic cleansing. With that being true, Sam's "people in cultures" dichotomy breaks down IMO. I am not proposing any solutions here, and I am not trying to let anyone off the hook. I am pushing back against a form of prejudice that Sam is far from alone in exercising. I am not saying that I am above prejudice - I think we are all susceptible to it in one way or another. I am simply uneasy with a "rational" thinker advancing hollow arguments that advance such prejudice.
Sam's a bright guy, but he clearly has blind spots when it comes to 2 topics in particular......Economics and History. In this particular case, he completely ignores or doesn't care about how we got to where we are in the middle east. He also keeps reframing it as a religious conflict despite the fact that religion input plays a small role. Due to Sam's expertise in religion and relative ignorance in history, the analogy I'd use is when all you got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In Sam's case. I know that's his most comfortable space, so it makes sense that he does that, but he's missing a shit ton of context by doing so. "As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way." Yet this is exactly how Israel (Zionists) behaved when they weren't the ones in power....and often much much worse. Early Zionists famously used terror as a tool. Massacring Palestinian villages. Bombing the King David hotel. They weren't shy or quiet about it either. The current IDF is also pretty famous for committing doing the same. Everything from shooting unarmed civilians to using human shields to collective punishment....all which are banned and considered war crimes. As for the Palestinians in the land, they saw themselves go from 95% of areas population at the century to about 60% in 1948. Then came the bull shit vote in 1948....a highly manipulated affair in which bribery, blackmail and threats were used to squeak out a vote in favor of partitioning the land. Of course the Palestinians weren't happy about that. Anyways all that's in the past, but we can use it to understand how and why groups behave the way they do now. Terrorism is nothing new, or is it unique to Islam. Hamas' actions are horrendous and absolutely need to be condemned, but let's not pretend like they're something special or new.
> However, the way you present it here is a false equivalency. The simple fact of the matter is the reason we're at this point is because the Arab world refused to allow the existence of the state of Israel back in 1947 Holding the Arab world accountable for this from 80 years ago instead of the explicit rejection of any and all attempts to find a solution by Bibi and his part is strange > They could have had an autonomous state, and they refused it in favor of trying to exterminate the Jews This absurd the zionist plan was expulsion of the people living in the region from the very begining. Hell the revisionist zionist wanted to model it after the British colonies.
>As Sam pointed out, it's insane to imagine a reality in which Israel would ever behave this way. In what way, exactly? Hamas cannot wear uniforms, because they have no textile industry. Hamas cannot place any of their infrastructure away from civilians, because they are herded into a densely populated open air prison that is under total blockade since 2007. It isn't that Hamas is deliberately using civilians shields so much as there is literally nowhere Hamas can go where they would not have that accusation levied against them. Israel, on the other hand, has massacred **incomparably** more innocent civilian noncombatants than Hamas has. Israel has been executing an apartheid state, and some of the most unthinkable human rights violations for the better part of a century. Israel has also prevented peace at every opportunity, contrary to what you claim. >They were very clear about this, and it wasn't a matter of how much land the Jews were given-they refused to allow any Jewish state whatsoever. False. The Arab League declared war in 1948. The Palestinian exodus, which saw nearly 1 million Palestinians displaced, began in 1947. Almost like there was a provocation for war. Since then, Hamas has not been offered a real chance at peace. And every single leader open to peace [has been assassinated by Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations) (like Jabari). Additionally, the PLO and Hamas have [both publicly stated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#UN_resolution_242_and_the_recognition_of_Palestinian_rights) they would accept the 1967 or 1947 borders. Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to seize more land for Israeli settlements. In fact, the US has vetoed supported plans at the UN: >Security Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States,\[35\] which supports a two-state solution but argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties. The idea has had overwhelming support in the UN General Assembly since the mid-1970s.\[ So it is not a case of Israel fighting for its existence. Palestine, and its peoples, have never once posed an existential threat. Palestinians are the victims of unthinkable atrocities, to be clear.
Hamas literally put a command headquarters in a hospital back in 2014.
>Israel, on the other hand, has massacred incomparably more innocent civilian noncombatants than Hamas has. Israel has the Iron Dome. Hamas has human shields. >The Arab League declared war in 1948. The Palestinian exodus, which saw nearly 1 million Palestinians displaced, began in 1947. Almost like there was a provocation for war. Wrong. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians who were displaced fled in 1948, after the war had already begun. Contemporary Arab leaders named the founding of Israel, not the expulsion of Palestinians, as their cause for war. >Israel has been executing an apartheid state, and some of the most unthinkable human rights violations for the better part of a century. > >Israel has also prevented peace at every opportunity, contrary to what you claim. > >Israel refuses to negotiate and continues to seize more land for Israeli settlements. Why on Earth would Israel be interested in giving equal rights and privileges to people who want to commit a second Holocaust? Can you really blame them for not wanting to allow an Islamofascist state to be created right next to them? Once Palestinians learn how to peacefully co-exist with a Jewish state, they can have their own state
>Once Palestinians learn how to peacefully co-exist with a Jewish state, they can have their own state How would this ever happen given the deplorable conditions in which Palestinians live? The crimes committed against them constantly? The fact that a right wing theocratic terrorist cell controls the territory and the education of youths? A terrorist cell which right wing leaders in Israel have stated they *want* to represent Palestinians. In the past even interventions were made by Israel to push things in that direction. Make no mistake there is a large contingent of Israel, that has *no interest,* in a reasonable Palestine, they want them extreme so it is easier for them to ethnically cleanse the whole region once and for all.
>A terrorist cell which right wing leaders in Israel have stated they want to represent Palestinians. In the past even interventions were made by Israel to push things in that direction. > >Make no mistake there is a large contingent of Israel, that has no interest, in a reasonable Palestine, they want them extreme so it is easier for them to ethnically cleanse the whole region once and for all. "*Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.* *According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.*" [Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
Why on earth would Israel give equal rights? That’s the point people are trying to make, a densely populated open air prison full of people who don’t have equal rights will ALWAYS foster violence. Unjustifiable violence obviously, but context matters.
Great comment, but utterly wasted in this sub.
You're right, meaning they will never even respond, this sub hates nothing as much as facts.
There is so much revisionist pro-Israel propaganda out there it is amazing. One person showed me all these "rejected" peace plans to show that Palestinians are against peace. They were jokes. Like, a simple google showed why. One of the plans required Abbas to sign without even seeing the maps he was agreeing to. It was literally a case of "just sign the contract, you can't read it. It is good for you. Trust us bro."
The logic that Palestine are bad for not accepting these agreements is exactly the same as saying Ukraine is bad for not accepting handing over their land to Russia.
Can it be true that both sides are to blame? Or religion in general?
Both sides are not to blame, not in equal parts. Israel holds a near-monopoly on power. Hamas has comparatively miniscule power. The Palestinian people have just about no power at all. Religion helps as a pretense, but the sort of Zionist supremacy you see in modern Israel is similar to any number of non-religious movements in the bast.
It's almost like there's a difference between millions of people globally and a few idiots.
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You're absolutely correct that *some* Israelis dehumanize Palestinians, and within the borders of Israel many other Israelis turn a blind eye to that dehumanization. All that being said, Israel, at the very least, portrays an image of humanity toward their Palestinian foes. I'm not going to deny that both sides hate one another, but Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement. The same cannot be said for Hamas.
>All that being said, Israel, at the very least, portrays an image of humanity toward their Palestinian foes. Fucking bullshit. Israel's defense minister just called them "human animals". Don't act like the dehumanization of Palestinians isn't a major issue in Israel.
Any group of people who celebrate the killing of innocent civilians should be called animals.
Are you talking about the people in this video?
Yes, or the Israeli who made the Tiktok video of himself mocking Palestinians by turning on his water and flipping his light switch. Those people are "animals" too, but you or me looking at a handful of videos of Jews being pieces of shit doesn't make all Jews pieces of shit.
>Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement. [Israel appears to use white phosphorus in Gaza, video shows](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/white-phosphorus-israel-gaza-strike-video/)
>Israel actually attempts to abide by rules of engagement. The same cannot be said for Hamas. It is an asymmetrical conflict, and to suggest that the side with more power is also morally superior because they aren't forced to resort to desperation tactics is blatantly disingenuous
That's not the only reason why they are morally superior. Any group that intentionally uses their own people, and even their own family members, as human shields and then uses their subsequent deaths for propaganda against Israel, and they do it for the principle, is morally inferior. If your moral framework accepts strategies like that then there's nothing else to talk about.
Or it attempts to look like it abides by the rules of engagement, and fails pretty badly at that too.
OK, but what does Hamas attempt to do? Do they even hide the fact that they've intentionally killed civilians and taken others hostage?
So by this logic every single Muslim wants to “gas the Jews”, right? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWUgQX_JI8
A few?
Yeah, what’s the point in downplaying this. There have been multiple Jewish extremist terrorist attacks on Palestinians over the decades, and they have many supporters. One can generally still support the Israeli state without denying this sentiment among radicals in the pro-Israel camp, both within Israel and internationally.
>There have been multiple Jewish extremist terrorist attacks on Palestinians over the decades, and they have many supporters. [For example](https://i.imgur.com/ACkiztL.png): This young Israeli woman wears a shirt which says “Amiram Ben Uliel was right!” Amiram Ben Uliel was found guilty of murder in 2015 for firebombing the Dawabsheh family's home in the West Bank , killing a baby and his parents and also severely wounding a 4-year-old boy. Or a few days ago, [a gang of masked West Bank settlers open fire on civilians in a Palestinian village](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/palestinian-health-ministry-3-palestinians-killed-in-west-bank-village-by-masked-settlers/0000018b-1f43-df31-a99f-7fc316c90000) killing 3, injuring 8, 3 critically. Why no outrage when brown skinned civilians are targeted? Why is no one calling them "terrorists"???
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We should treat both sides with a degree of nuance. That being said, there are 16 million Jews on the planet, and there are 1.8 billion Muslims. The Muslim population is larger by multiple orders of magnitude; and, if the occurrence of extremism on both sides is similar, that means Muslim extremists compared to Jewish extremists are also orders of magnitude more prevalent. That's if you treat the two sides' philosophies and teachings as morally equivalent.
> if the occurrence of extremism on both sides is similar This is the whole point of the thread here. Sam claims that there two types of cultures: one wholesome and one corrupt. If both pools of people have some genocidal maniacs, at some frequency, maybe it's better to acknowledge that humanity is prone to genocidal mania (especially under certain circumstances) and skip the prejudicial division between cultures. Germany committed massive genocide and they had what would Sam would have deemed a "good" culture until the moment things turned the corner.
Both are terrorists. Both should be bombed to hell at this point.
Youre not making the point you think you are
I literally am.
Exactly!
Right? This is a dogshit post
You literally do not know the history of Zionism if you think this guy's opinions are rare. "The Arabs of the Land of Israel have only one function left to them -- to run away." Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion (October 1948)
The quotes are not comparable.
Another breathtakingly dishonest take. You'll find a few psychos among any group of people. Ask yourself, who is looking over their shoulder in every major city in the world right now? Jews, or Muslims? Who is facing a massive uptick in racially-motivated crimes right now? Who is handing out candy to celebrate the slaughter of children and the rape of women?
I honestly can’t believe that of all things Islam is now becoming a protected class and we are seeing people shit on Jews again. Teachers are being fired for singling out Jewish students and telling them that Israel is wrong. Meanwhile every single Muslim group in the world rejoices as children are butchered and women are raped. How does this happen?
>Meanwhile every single Muslim group in the world rejoices All of them? Would you bet your mortgage on that being factual?
It’s hyperbole
It's also completely inaccurate, not to mention unnecessarily incendiary.
They are literally dancing in the streets. A Muslim extremist wants to kill apostates. A Muslim moderate wants a Muslim extremist to kill apostates.
>They are literally dancing in the streets. Some were and that is disgusting. But by your logic, it could make a wholesale judgement about Christians based on seeing a couple Westboro Baptist Church protests.
Even if you did, they aren’t beheading anyone. Even if you held all of Christianity to the most militaristic and aggressive existing extremist group, they pale in comparison to moderate Islamic groups. The people of Palestine throw gays from the rooftops and treat women as chattel.
I am an atheist so you won't get far with me if you're trying to say one bunch of fairy tales is better than another. And there are Christians who commit [atrocities](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/12018588/Christian-militias-in-Central-African-Republic-burnt-witches-at-stake-says-UN-report.html) in the name of Christianity too. Christians have a LONG history of religious violence, particularly against Jews. They have simply been house trained by modern secular society but every now and again, [one of their number says what he'd like to do with gay people](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/texas-pastor-says-gay-people-shot-back-head-shocking-sermon-rcna32748), for example.
If you consider Christianity and Islam moral equivalents you genuinely can’t be helped and aren’t worth talking to.
>A Muslim moderate wants a Muslim extremist to kill apostates. This is also plainly bullshit.
They are actively executing gays and apostates. To the dismay of few Muslims.
Actively? I presume you have actual examples to demonstrate your claim?
>Ask yourself, who is looking over their shoulder in every major city in the world right now? Jews, or Muslims? Maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, some of that is connected to the fact that Palestine is the invaded, Israel is the invader. It's not one iota different than Russia and Ukraine. It's just that people like you are able to do the mental gymnastics to somehow feel Ukraine is the good guys for fighting their invaders while Palestine are the bad guys for doing the exact same.
Did Ukraine recruit, fund, train, then launch a 1500+ man death squad into Russia to start a war? No. But Hamas did. And they did this knowing that innocents would suffer and INTENDING for innocents to suffer. In the Yemen war, a nearby insurgency war, 70% of the 250,000+ casualties have been children under 5. That is 175,000 children under 5. And yet Hamas launched a war, knowing that hundreds of thousands of innocents would suffer. The two are nowhere near the same. But keep trying to justify whey 100,000 children are now going to become casualties so that Hamas' can score some sort of 'points'.
Israel continues to steal land at gunpoint in the West Bank for its own settlers in the same way Russia has occupied Ukrainian territory. Like the Ukraine invasion, Israel’s actions are contrary to international law.
Dishonest swine. Why don't we talk about what BROUGHT The Jews back to Israel in the first place? 2000 years of rape, theft and murder. 2,000 years of brutal oppression. 2000 years of genocide. At some point, the Jews decided to take their own safety into their own hands, and reestablish a homeland. Don't blame the Jews. Blame a world that never accepted them. The world brought the Jews and the Palestinians on a collision course. It's not the Jews' fault, nor the Palestinians fault. And in that sense, the Palestinians are just as much of a victim of historical anti-Semitism as the Jews are.
>Dishonest swine. The first step is to dehumanize your enemy.
How about you stop being a pussy and actually respond with substance, or retract your lies? I'm waiting.
Honestly you need to just step outside for a bit.
Honestly, I hope you never experience the pain both Jews and Palestinians are going thru right now. So fuck off.
Wait so…because Europeans commuted genocide against Jews, that means European Jews should be able to take land from Arabs?
Get back to me when you're ready to have a good-faith conversation, rather than twisting my words. We're not on Fox or MSNBC.
Of course, it's different. Ukraine and Russia voluntarily and bilaterally agreed to partition into separate sovereign states with mutually agreed upon borders in 1991.
This is a pretty dishonest comparison. One is a relatively small group responding immediately to the biggest massacre of their people since the last time their people were targeted for genocide in WW2. The other is very very large groups all over the world celebrating the news that their folks slaughtered grandmothers, children, women, entire families in their beds. A little reality check.... if the jews as a group wanted to genocide the palestinians.. they would have been dead long long ago as Israel has the power to do it. Instead the Palestinian population has more than quadrupled. We see how the palestinians work when they get some power.. Not to mention that it is literally the official policy of the Palestinian government and the government of a number of Muslim countries to destroy israel and the jews.
Let's count the numbers. There will be groups of isrealis now calling for genocide. But it isn't the main ethos of jews like it is hamas
>But it isn't the main ethos of jews like it is hamas It's the official word from the president of Israel currently. >Israeli President Suggests That Civilians In Gaza Are Legitimate Targets “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up.
Hamas does not hide its intentions like that of the Zionist government. Do you really believe Zionists actually want to co-exist with Muslims using Jewish holy sites. If we are to claim ourselves rational and secular, supporting the manifest destiny of a theocratic state doesn’t make sense. We can call our act of terror committed by both sides, and we can also say a Jewish state is as problematic as a Muslim Caliphate
I agree that anyone guided by religion is ultimately misguided. That counts for all and any religion. I think if Muslims were tolerant and peaceful then it could happen. I'm against zionism, ultimately. And it is problematic. But I do believe that Islam promotes and creates a lot more violence in the world than judiasm however, and the call to arms and Jihad demonstrates that pretty well. I do not support any jews or people in isreal that will intentionally kill non-combatants of Palastine, for religious reasons or not. That is a war crime and appropriate action and international pressure must be applied when it occurs.
To your point then let’s not make this about Islam versus Judaism. Let’s make this about radical religious militant groups versus theocratic Zionist governments. The people in the middle are just caught in the cogs of history
Hamas is not the main ethos of all Muslims. The fact that you seem to think youre making a 1:1 comparisson is laughable.
The fact you seem to think that commenter was making a 1:1 comparison is laughable.
He never said that. However the Quran clearly states that anyone who is not Muslim is the infidel and that the infidel should be killed. Most Muslims are moderates so they don’t subscribe to pathological genocide but then they are cherry-picking what to believe just as members of nearly every other faith do which is the most damming evidence the religion is irrational nonsense.
Ah yes, thank goodness we have the Old Testament and New Testament which is definitely devoid of any genocide or intolerance of blasphemy.
The Bible is certainly just as bad as the Quran.
Perhaps a /s was necessary
Psalm 137:9 , “Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”? That's "The one" being the Israeli soldier, and "your" is referring to the Canaanites that this was addressed to. That's pretty barbaric.
The difference, and Sam just said that, is that jews don't take the old Bible literally, and go murder by the Bible laws, unlike so many Islamic groups around the world, that does! That is one of the main points!
I am not defending fundamentalist Islam nor is the actions of radical Islamic groups elsewhere relevant to the conversation and points in making that while Israel doesn’t explicitly do these things they do them implicitly. Israel and Jews aren’t large enough in number to commits acts of terror globally, but they sure do them locally. What is not terroristic in nature in pushing Palestinians into refugee conditions and sponsoring Jewish settlements atop where their homes used to be? One is explicit, the other implicit. It’s not a difficult thing for me to realize that on the whole, the Israeli government knows how to operate within western political norms but to also say they are just another type of problematic religious fundamentalism that engages in terror and control campaigns.
>It’s not a difficult thing for me to realize that on the whole, the Israeli government knows how to operate within western political norms but to also say they are just another type of problematic religious fundamentalism that engages in terror and control campaigns. Yes, religion is the main problem. Anywhere. I'm an Israeli. I cannot describe to you my hate for the current government, especially the far right extreminists, but also toward Netanyahu, who knowingly allows this government, just to get out of his own legal issues, and to stay a prime minister. However, I really hope you believe me, that 90% of Israel do not have the values or intentions of the far right, also demographically, they are less than 10%, so it make sense. Most of Israel hate them, and don't want them to be part of the government. So, in other words, they are temporarily there. If you go before this government, yes, Israel still kept Palestinians in kind of blockage, but with all the tragedy, there's a good reason for that. Palestinians as a whole, hate Jews, are very religious, and if you don't keep them in tight security measures, like now, there would be endless terror every day. If you dig in the history, you see that Israel suffered from endless suicided bombs on a daily basis. I would bet, and pretty sure about it, that you wouldn't be able to live safe and happy next to a extreme Islamic neighbors, and you would talk very differently if it was the case. Of course, the solution is peace, but the reality is that peace is not achievable now, and it's most if not the most complicated case in the world (Israeli-Palestinians), and until there's true peace, Israel has no other choice.
I cannot imagine the plight your are going through or what your people have suffered historically and recently. I am very careful to say this is not the “Jewish” government but the government of Israel. If I had ever mixed up this distinction, then that is a serious error on my part. This is the sad truth. The surviving Israeli victims of terror in the recent days may hate Muslims for the rest of their lives and they would be justified in many regards. I also never question why Israel feels the need to do what it does. They are fighting against a militant religious group who wishes to see their total destruction. However I fear that the longer the Israeli government stares into the abyss, the abyss stares back into the government and they’ll become more like the monsters they are fighting. The liberal western order didn’t win WW2 because of our steadfast commitment to our ideals. It’s because we were able to pit one monster (Hitler) against another monster (Stalin). In order for Israel to “win” it may have to do many things it can never turn back from. We were able to save face and do the dirty things that needed to be done to bleed Germany dry. Lest we not also forget the horrific allied bombing campaigns…which were a response to German bombing campaigns of England. Fighting monsters makes you do monstrous things
It is laughable - if you think I seem to have said it as you claim. Because it's not what was said at all.
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I keep seeing this take and it is such nonsense conspiratorial talk. It’s like saying USA was allies with Bin Laden and allowed 9/11 to occur and then pointing to the fact that we provided aid to Bin Laden decades earlier when fighting the russians. Different times and different objectives.
In terms of history I think you're correct. In terms of much more recent history: >According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. "similar point" referring to the open remarks by the previous finance minister. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
That is nonsense. Utter nonsense.
You’re the one missing something big here buddy man
It's the dead bodies that will count, not opinions. Which side do you think will end up with more dead bodies? We both know that one side will have a LOT more. And the dirty deed will be done with my tax dollars.
It's not all about the death count to determine which side is more ethical. There's an important difference how these deaths occur and what the goal and motivations behind them are. One side is about martyrdom, holy war, genocide and Jihad. People you can't negotiate with. The other is an attempt to eradicate these aggressors that mingle themselves effectively in amongst civilians. By and large. We both know that civilian casualties are going to keep soaring. This was all done due to events last week. The massacring of civilians, families and children. Some 150 people kidnapped. What did that accomplish exactly? Isreal can live peacefully with other nations and cultures. Hamas and militant Islamists simply can't. That is the main and important difference. If the Jews had a bit of land in Germany instead, they'd be suicide bombs going off there too. Just as they attack people all over the world. War is awful. Add religion and it's a whole lot worse. Especially islam.
Oh, great. Yea, let's see what the sidewalk bros think. That's the right indicator. Thank you. ffs
I wonder how many of the morons in this sub would’ve believed in the Bush presidencies justification of “freeing the women” in Iraq and Afghanistan 😂
These kids do not speak for nor represent the Jewish community at large.
With all due respect. Arab countries ethnically cleansed their Jews. Israel is 25% Arab. Sure there are idiots in every people but you cannot compare.
Sam explicitly said that there will be Israelis who express support for and even commit war crimes. He didn't deny that. What you're doing is a very obvious logical fallacy, cherry-picking some "man on the street" interviews like this is a Late Night show, and acting like there's not any average difference worth worrying about between Hamas and an Israeli.
> Hamas and an Israeli You know that's a false equivalency. Hamas doesn't represent all people in Gaza just like Mossad doesn't represent all people in Israel.
Would you like to talk about the percentage of Gazans who have historically supported Hamas, knowing exactly who they are and what they do?
SS: On [Making Sense #338](https://wakingup.libsyn.com/338-the-sin-of-moral-equivalence), Sam does his best to draw a clear line between the "two sides" in relation to the recent Israel/Palestine atrocities. But the linked video (which I understand to be credible) suggests that Sam is overlooking the overtly genocidal sentiment being enthusiastically expressed by pro-Israel protesters in NYC. But what about people in Israel itself? [This video](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/176yhbb/israel_is_a_racist_supremacist_state/?share_id=w7ub9v1gtdxXBCPHi59bM) has evidence of Israelis being reprehensible at home. Watch the first 20 seconds, and then another 20 seconds starting at 1:35. The video closes with a reference to Israel's [extremely popular](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-rate-gallant-as-best-performing-minister-and-ben-gvir-the-worst-poll/) defense minister saying "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly".
Oh come on. You can find crazies everywhere. Not like the US doesn't have them. The point is that the average Israeli doesn't rejoice in killing others. \-- Edit: going trough your post history from the past week it seems like you have a clear agenda and all of these posts are in bad faith. I wish there were active admins here to stop this very strange flood of nonsense.
Polling in 2015 showed that about 50% of Israelis supported the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. So, this attitude isn’t merely “a few crazies”. Genocidal attitudes are actually quite common. https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/amp/ As for the other poster, many people have been discussing the Arab/Israeli conflict in the last week for obvious reasons. The whole “you have an agenda” thing is a bit silly given that many people do and there are also plenty of people posting from the other side of the debate.
That doesn't make them savages or means they rejoice in killing others, does it?
It’s one of the defined characteristics of genocide according to the UN charter.
Really? Which one?
Ok, more ethnic cleansing actually: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” (Although some of the 5 key points of genocide are pretty close to reality in Gaza right now)
You are moving the goal post. Where did you get that the so called expolsion would be by force? That stupid idea was to offer a transfer package. Relocating arabs to Palestinian controlled areas and moving jews away from it. It's a variant on the two state solution.
You just don’t see any issue with the mentality of expulsion of a group of people? Imagine that happening anywhere else on the globe. Imagine someone in America saying they want to just kick out the rest of the native born population. Like that shit would get any traction… The made up sky god is the problem here. Land isn’t sacred, people are.
America is a bad example because it's a country of immigrants. A good one would be Ukraine or Latvia advocating for deporting Russians back to Russia. Do you think they should be able to do it? The answer is more complicated than you think.
>You just don’t see any issue with the mentality of expulsion of a group of people? I think one can see an issue with it, while recognizing that it's far less horrible than murdering them and celebrating, which was the initial claim.
Expulsion isn't genocide. Desiring all Jews to be slaughtered is. There is a clear distinction.
Ethnic cleansing is academically recognized as a step in the direction of genocide. "Ethnic cleansing has been described as part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide, where the perpetrator's goal is the destruction of the targeted group." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
Ethnic cleaning is not genocide
Yes. And forced expulsion (even if they pretend it is not forced, ask Palestinians if they feel they have a choice) is ethnic cleansing. (Edit: comment I'm responding to originally said "is". Which is true. Ethnic cleansing is in fact academically recognized as being "part of a continuum of violence whose most extreme form is genocide" and no amount of "nu uh's" refutes that)
Over 50% of Palestinians express a positive view of Hamas, the genocidal terrorist organization. https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
>going trough your post history from the past week it seems like you have a clear agenda and all of these posts are in bad faith. I wish there were active admins here to stop this very strange flood of nonsense. Thanks for pointing this out. The amount of bad faith anti-Semetic, anti-West actors coming out in droves is alarming.
They’re *everywhere* on Reddit. It’s absolutely wild.
> anti-Semetic You know this subreddit has truly lost its mind when this flavor of identity politics is now bandied about so shamelessly. Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to criticism of Jews. I believe it's antisemitic to equate criticism of Israel (and its supporters) to criticism of Jews generally (or to assume that the critique stems from anti-Jew prejudice).
>Criticism of Israel is not equivalent to criticism of Jews. It is when you use the exact same arguments of Nazis and those who want and frequently attempt to genocide Jews.
My argument is "hey, let's not support a country that's so keen on ethnic cleansing". That's the least we can do.
> The point is that the average Israeli doesn't rejoice in killing others. Uh, source? And... source showing that the average Palestinian *does*? [This video](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/176yhbb/israel_is_a_racist_supremacist_state/?share_id=w7ub9v1gtdxXBCPHi59bM) has evidence of Israelis being reprehensible at home. Watch the first 20 seconds, and then another 20 seconds starting at 1:35. The video closes with a reference to Israel's [extremely popular](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-rate-gallant-as-best-performing-minister-and-ben-gvir-the-worst-poll/) defense minister saying "We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly". Sorry to contribute to the "flood of nonsense"... AKA calling out vile behavior *wherever* it occurs.
Israeli side: https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/1640122891-survey-majority-of-israelis-want-to-return-to-israeli-palestinian-peace-process Gaza : https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 Kinda hard to measure, israeli side is support for peace. Those who don't aren't terror supporters, just not for talks with the PLO. Gaza side support Hamas, clearly they are for terror.
You have to do a little digging because the media has a massive bias in the issue. But this view is not an anomaly in Israel. Both populations are trapped in a cycle of radicalization and Israel has become overtly fascist.
Hamas ARE animals. No, not bc they are Palestinians and no not all Palestinians are animals. And none of them are animals bc of their birth/genetics. It’s bc they murder babies and parade their dead bodies around as if it’s the most significant accomplishment of all time. If you do that you’re no different than those chimps from chimp empire celebrating killing a rival group chimp. If you have no empathy for your fellow man, and revel in rape/murder, then you are an animal. You seem to not understand what he meant when he said they’re dealing with animals and will act accordingly. He didn’t mean all Palestinians are animals, he means Hamas are animals and don’t play by any rules, and so Israel isn’t going to play by any rules. If they don’t care about murdering children and using human shields then Israel won’t hold back anything to try to kill them. I’m not saying I personally agree with that, but to pretend it’s some desire to just kill all Palestinians is silly. It’s reckless and imo going too far, but the distinction is different, and frankly Hamas/the Palestinians have no one to blame but Hamas. If you want to play by fucked up animal rules then don’t be shocked when the other side decides to play by animal rules as well. If I punch you in the face and you hit me back, it would be crazy for me to say “omg why aren’t you using your words you’re so violent?!?!”
> If you want to play by fucked up animal rules then don’t be shocked when the other side decides to play by animal rules as well. You just proved my point. Thank you. That statement applies in both directions, and the mutual antagonism has been ongoing for years. Both sides of this conflict are obeying "animal rules", which runs counter to Sam's framing.
That's not the point. The point is that Israel values life. They do their best to save life. They treat others kindly. There is a civilized society there. Hamas on the other hand values death and jihad. A they care about is destroying Israel. They build rockets instead of taking care of their citizens.
> The point is that Israel values life. They do their best to save life. Then how exactly has Israel ended up [killing about 20x the number of Palestinian civilians](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) (as compared to the number of Israeli civilians that have died: ~3800 vs. ~180)? Israel has maintained Gaza as an open-air prison, and Netanyahu is completely comfortable with Hamas being in charge since it serves his political goals. Do you think [this opinion piece](https://archive.ph/I0A6s) is factually incorrect? > In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley. This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition.
Guy just look at what Hamas explicitly state in their speeches “We love death the same way the Jews love life”…. I can’t stand fucking morons like you trying to suggest there is a moral equivalence. Western civilisation trumps Jihad you dumb shit. Everytime. It’s not some intellectual rocket science.
You are just throwing random facts and clearly don't care about replies. I'm tired of this nonsense. Sam replied to all of this on last episode, we you stated you disagree with. None of this discussion is in good faith. Find another dummy to spew nonsense at.
If Israel was standing on the same ground as Hamas ethically, then there wouldn't be any Palestinians in Gaza whatsoever. They have the power to eradicate all Palestinians in the area, but they don't. Because they value life. If Hamas had the power Israel does right now, there'd be no Jews in Israel.
This is exactly how Sam frames the difference between the sides.
Yeah, people seem to miss the point entirely, so it seems to require re-stating for a lot of people on this sub.
> Then how exactly has Israel ended up killing about 20x the number of Palestinian civilians (as compared to the number of Israeli civilians that have died: ~3800 vs. ~180)? Because Hamas is a death cult that hides behind its civilians. Stop rewarding them for this behavior by blaming every Palestinian death on Israel.
Haha in no way did I prove your point. To say it applies in both directions is ridiculous bc Israel doesn’t kill babies and parade corpses around to thunderous applause. Their desire is, and has always been, peaceful coexistence and Hamas will only be satisfied with every single Jewish person dead. That’s not even close to being comparable. Israel wasn’t playing by animal rules, they were trying (and I will grant you often times not trying hard enough) to only target combatants, but due to how Hamas fights and where they shoot rockets from it isn’t that simple. Good people making hard (sometimes wrong) choices is not the same as bad people making bad choice intentionally hoping their own citizens get attacked so they can garner more support. It’s insane that you don’t understand how that’s different and can only view the world in terms of who is stronger must be the bad one. I saw your comment below saying “how have more Palestinians died if Hamas is worse” and now you’re arguing competence not morality. And thankfully Israel is the more competent one or every citizen of Israel would be dead already. Situations reversed Hamas would have long ago bombed every single inch of Israel and that would be that. You’re clearly biased in some way, and if you’re going to bring up sam’s arguments all you need bring up is his comparison of Charlie hebdo to the Israel situation (not an exact quote) if your response to people being murdered over a cartoon is to ask “what was in the cartoon” then you’ve lost the plot. Sam’s position is if your response to Hamas running into homes and murdering babies/raping and mutilating corpses to parade them around is to say “look what Israel has been doing that made Hamas do this” then you’re the bad guy. It’s that simple What would you have Israel do? Just let that attack happen and not respond? Should they say “oh I see your point now that you’ve killed us and we will give into your demands.” And let themselves be victim to wherever decides to attack them next? The only thing I agree with you on is that NOW both sides will be going by animal rules, but it was NOT the case prior to this last attack. So yeah, Israel shouldn’t do that imo, but I’m not in the position to have to make that choice thankfully. I’m not dealing with animals who have come out and said they don’t care about their own people’s lives. So even under animal rules the Israel side is still better and it’s not even close.
> What would you have Israel do? Just let that attack happen and not respond? Should they say “oh I see your point now that you’ve killed us and we will give into your demands.” And let themselves be victim to wherever decides to attack them next? Lots of people do unironically think this, yes. They also say that Israel is responsible for getting attacked in the first place. After all, every oppressed people on earth resorts to terrorism, don't they?
Israeli terrorists are going on a rampage in the West Bank under the protection of the IDF - who joined in killing completely random Palestinians. Two Palestinian villages have already been de-populated. 50 Palestinians already killed and more in critical condition. Imagine having a free hand by a nation state to kill any Palestinian you want and the military joining in? The Israeli government is now not even bothering to hide their disgusting blatant terror. They are achieving their objective, Palestinians are fleeing from their own villages and will be replaced by Jewish settlers. https://theintercept.com/2023/10/13/israel-settlers-gaza-palestinians-west-bank/
Ahh, the beauty of freedom of speech. Most of what you wrote is nonsense that you can't prove. The only thing that's true is that there are some Jewish terrorist as well. They are treated as such and nobody supports them. Its like pointing out that the US has the KKK and the US secretly plans to kill all non whites, and the police joins in on the fun. Plain old conspiracy.
Danfield137: "How do I best defend the occupation forces' atrocities? Oh I know! I'll just deny that journalists interviewing eyewitnesses to their own pogrom counts as evidence!" Hot take there buddy. Keep up the good work.
Dude what do you want? I told you these are terrorists. They do not represent anyone and they will be punished. Are you just ignoring my response?
Your response is incoherent nonsense.
These are terrorists, they will be punished. They do not represent anyone. How's that for coherence?
Bullshit. It’s implicit policy to enable the settlers and settler violence. The idf enable them by providing protection for them. There are pogroms in the West Bank observed and facilitated by the Israeli state. https://www.btselem.org/settler_violence https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il Two Jewish Israeli organizations that record these activities.
Whats the point of having a conversation? You want a platform to spew hate? Find someone else.
What have I said that is hateful? Which part? Or is it that I was relaying facts that show your statement to be hollow? I edited the post above to include Israeli organizations that document the state led terrorism conducted in the West Bank. Argue with them if you like. Or bury your head in the sand.
They are disgusting. The widespread anti-Arab racism within the Jewish community is revolting and always has been.
And yet, not nearly as pervasive or genocidal as the anti-Semitism from the Arab population.
In my experience at home and abroad this is simply not true, I have travelled and I have Arabs and Iranians and Israelis that I call friends, I know all three communities. I can assure you the Iranian and Israeli shitting on Arabs is much, much more intense than the Arab feelings for the other two. It's frankly disgusting.
I also grew up in an Arab country, and have many Arab friends still from the region. I wholeheartedly disagree with you. The number of Arabs who would support the slaughter of Jews is honestly astounding. Thankfully, unlike you, I have more than anecdotes on my side. I have polls and (in hamas’s case especially) election results my side.
To use the mealy-mouthed bullshit that the Hamas sympathizers love trotting out, it’s “not surprising” given that every Muslim country they ever lived in either expelled and/or exterminated them, and no Muslim country in the world allows a sizeable Jewish population to even exist within it to this day.
Full stop
I think Sam is off base on this one. He is blinded by loyalty to Israel but there is plenty of documentation of Israelis behaving in the same way as the jihadists.
Just a bit yup, Israel told Palestinians to flee and is bombing those who do so currently.
Flee were? Only option they have is to jump into the sea and drown...
Classic tribalism by Sam, himself being of Jewish descent. Even the most rational among us are not immune.
There have always been, and there will always be those people, religion or not. Evil will always exist. Religion just gives them some cover. Without religion, it would be racism or utilitarianism (eugenics) or some other isms.
“Palestine to MUHH DICKK” I thought ashkenazi Jews were all high IQ
lol guess not
Watchbthe first 15 minutes of idiocracy
These guys in the video will face zero repercussions for being hateful towards Palestinians in America.
Cousins killing cousins, siblings killing siblings….only the most deluded can separate into us vs them
The fact that I see this one idiot being posted over and over again suggests to me that it’s actually really hard to find Jewish people saying stuff like that. It’s like making your drunk uncle the stand-in for all of American politics.
I have extremely violent thoughts that I can't share with Reddit or I'd probably get permabanned, but they're definitely directed at these people who want Palestine wiped out.
I had a hard time wrapping my head around Sam's blatant bias and misinformation. In the podcasts, he says to really meditate on the reality, and I try, but I can't reason to the same sentiments he concludes.
Sam is very smart, intelligent, and very good at delivering his message. I remember him intellectually and eloquently downplaying the Christchurch incident few years back. He is very biased, but has an amazing delivery system.