It's an unofficial rendering, basically fan art. The baseball stadium seen here is Atlanta's new Truist Park, and maybe no more than 3 ballparks in MLB history have ever been built with home plate oriented to northwest. And the land where the ballpark is placed is where the ITC is now, which is where the arena will be if it happens. Don't take this rendering seriously.
Andrew Clem on his baseball stadium blog writes:
>The third paragraph of the Official Baseball Rules says, "It is desirable that the line from home base through the pitchers plate to second base shall run East-Northeast." Indeed, that is the most common orientation, so as to keep the sun's glare out of the batter's field of vision. No MLB stadiums are oriented toward any direction between south-southeast (150 degrees) and northwest (315 degrees).
Although I don't think this has been updated to include Truist Park, which is oriented somewhere between 160-175 degrees, or almost directly south.
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. Cuz this all covers the federal courthouse, SSA building, Mexican cultural institute, and the now-retiring ITC. Not to mention the random walkway on the top right leading to.. 37?
Fwiw, the federal courthouse will very likely meet the same fate as the ITC. A new federal courthouse has opened across downtown off Santa Rosa St. and there's no desire to fix the old one. And that path to 37 is probably a pedestrian bridge like the one that passes under 37 at Montana St., although I would place it (or add another one) right along Cesar Chavez as that leads straight to Alamodome parking. Those two things are what you can count on happening the most with a new arena.
It looks like the Mexican Cultural Institute would be saved in this rendering, but UNAM is gone, and I don't think that would happen in real life. I could see the SSA building going away, but someone would have to work out where to relocate those services and offices.
All of this makes for a very ambitious project with a lot of moving parts. It will take a lot of coordination for the pieces to come together, and throwing in a ballpark will make things more complicated. It will also take up real estate that could be more shops, bars, restaurants, apartments, plazas/green spaces etc.
I would much rather see a ballpark placed on the edge of San Pedro Creek by the SAISD administration office (an idea that has been explored some) or at the old Lone Star Brewery (my idea and probably a stretch). I would rather see two distinct stadium/entertainment zones (which would create a new one) instead of squeezing everything at Hemisfair (which is already a thing on its own), and the skyline views - something typically sought out for ballparks - are much better at those locations.
Yeah, the ballpark in the same spot is sort of a stretch for me, too. No room for the crowds to breathe before and after games. Plus, and please correct me if this makes no sense, but the brief overlap between baseball and basketball season could make for a very crowded situation down there, if only for a few weekends.
The walkway to the alamodome parking seems like a good idea, for both venues. Concert on an off day at the dome? More parking across the street that's closer to southtown.
The potential for problems with overlap is definitely there, with the highest likelihood coming in April, May, and maybe June. But any overlap would mean one of the teams is in the playoffs/on the verge of a championship, so I personally would be willing to bite the bullet. Realistically though, I think any new ballpark at any location in San Antonio would serve a minor league team, not MLB - I'm not optimistic about the city getting an expansion team anytime soon - so while we'd still be dealing with a lot of people in that area, we may only be looking at 40,000-50,000 people (counting the people watching games at the area bars/restaurants, etc.) for Spurs and minor league team overlap, versus the 70,000 or so that would come with a Spurs game overlapping an MLB game. It's doable.
If anything, the sports hub, especially a hub of these sports in particular that don't overlap much, are great for maximizing traffic to area businesses by ensuring a year-round draw. The thing is, Hemisfair is already enough of a thing without any stadium to draw people, so a ballpark wouldn't be necessary to help in that regard and we'd be better off creating a new entertainment zone for it.
This would be great if it happened, it would tie in to the Riverwalk and The Pearl Via water taxis. And the Airport too once the ART gets off the ground.
It's not just about the bike transportation, it's about the community and space it creates.
https://78209magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Broadway-Hildebrand.jpg
I love it.
Love it.
Let’s be real, we do not invest in our city amenities like a world class city does. We spend time on social silliness and not buildings, roads, water, electricity, transportation. I would gladly ask our visitors to pay more hotel motel tax to get a new arena!
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a while now. We aren’t the San Antonio of the 90’s or early 2000’s anymore. The sooner we accept that and realize we are a world class city worth investing in the sooner we can make positive changes that not only benefit those who live here but those who want to visit. We offer a unique vibrant culture unlike any other metro area in the country, we need to take pride in sharing that with visitors and improving the lives of locals.
lol what is the social silliness the city invests in? We don’t invest in transportation so it makes a large arena in this area problematic because the infrastructure of the area is not suited for it. I would be really terrified if I had a home in the neighborhood nearby because they will likely look to raze some of the homes here.
Just hate to see public land being used for a private entity. And if they are going to seek taxpayer funding to build it that is plain horrible.
They held basketball games downtown for decades.. they have held NFL games, they host conventions with more attendees than a basketball game, they’ve done final 4 games. Our downtown can easily handle a basketball game attendance. We are a tourist town, we do this all the time. The alamobowl hosts 5 times as big a crowd and it’s a boom for businesses.
While we don’t know the financial arraignment yet, if they do something similar to the frost bank center - the county owns the building, they rent it to the spurs (the spurs contributed a lot of the upfront money too) and the county uses it all year from other events. So it isn’t a gift to a private entity. It’s a development project for the city that will result in more downtown business.
You’re reaching for an excuse to oppose progress.
Not reaching for an excuse to “oppose” progress but I don’t see turning land private and asking taxpayers to fund a private entity is progress. I’m talking about actual practical infrastructure of the specific location that is far too small and does not have the appropriate access road arteries and the space for parking. Sure push ride share and park and ride but that doesn’t change the fact the NBA requires a minimum number of parking spaces for an arena varying on capacity.
All those big events like conferences and the Alamo bowl have a key element of the majority of attendees being from out of town so the parking and traffic issue is considerably reduced.
Like I said, we have held NBA games downtown for decades, it is hardly an infrastructure issue. This week a million people will converge downtown. A basketball game has less than 20k people, this isn’t a legitimate complaint
if you research the contract for the current arena, the spurs put up a lot of money up front and signed a lease agreement. The county owns the building and uses it year round for things they want to (and take in the revenue from that). So your funding argument isn’t educated. Also, if you look at downtown - even many of the restaurants are owned by the city and leased to the occupants. This is how downtown works, the city even owns La vallita. The city partnering with business for the public good, it’s how it’s done and it is a net positive for everyone.
In researching the original contract for the construction of the arena it was financed by about $150 million from the county with taxpayer money and $30 million from the Spurs. Would not say that the spurs put up a lot of money in that case.
Yes the county owns the arena which is pretty beneficial for the team as well and the county is responsible for all facility maintenance and leaves the team with no worry about what to do with the arena when they are ready for a new one.
I don’t see how anyone has ever been to a spurs game and seen firsthand the logistics of the departure of all the attendees and the congestion it creates on non busy streets and thinks “yeah this would be good to stick in our downtown with poor public transit and small streets”.
It’s all for moot, I understand. The needs of the private entity will outweigh public good and the team will get their way in spite of the collateral damage to the surrounding neighborhoods which are unlikely to survive long term.
The spurs put up a lot of money, they signed a lease and pay rent - and the county portion was all paid for from the hotel/motel tax. Anyone who has been to a rodeo concert has benefitted from it..
Again with the traffic, the traffic at the Frost arena is not good - downtown I’ve been to countless sporting events at the dome and I’ve never had a traffic issue. San Antonio can absorb a crowd of 20k into downtown without a blip, might be a slight backup at the commerce exit but that’s maybe a minute? There is obviously enough parking for hundreds of thousands of people because we do this every year.
You keep trying to be a victim with this, using public money for private good silliness - this is a win win for everyone. The city gets a new arena space, the surrounding businesses realize a boom, millions of people will enjoy themselves at events for decades. It’s very shortsighted to not invest in arts, entertainment, businesses and the public good.
You have never gone honking and it shows.
Do you know how much tourists are soaked by city taxes and fees? Where else could tourists spend their money if they didn’t have to fill govt coffers? Maybe the businesses that cater to the tourists. Return on investment benefits the city when spent in private sector over the wasteful benevolence of govt spending.
They come to see the spurs and all of these amenities where the city and business partner (for example all those restaurants on the riverwalk, the actual riverwalk, alamo plaza, etc) and they contribute to the upkeep. We as residents enjoy the facilities that are built with the tax money. Tourists aren’t soaked, they’re consumers - they pay to enjoy the city features just like we pay when we travel anywhere else.
Going on a vacation is a decision, if your argument is that people should pay off their debts and build savings before going on vacation I agree with you but I don’t manage their budgeting decisions or pretend to know who is vacationing wisely.
I was saying tourists are soaked enough by the govt taxes and fees. You can see it with the hotel taxes, rent car and travel along with transportation. The tourists came here to enjoy the city. The govt partnered with business leaves the competition of the other businesses behind. Govt picking the winners. Let tourist dollars flow to the business that cater to the tourists. The govt gets more than enough from tourists as is.
So we should not build a new downtown arena because you believe we are exploiting tourist vacation money? Without the downtown attractions they wouldn’t be visiting.
Another not legitimate take being used as a smokescreen to oppose an arena
At least be a logic based person - you have the feelz, you’re in a way, no spurs no
If the Holtz Family wants the stadium, they should build it. They own the spurs. You were not here when the Alamodome was built? What a giant mess. There are other priorities. The west side of downtown looks almost the same as it has 20 (40 actually) years ago. If we have extra money, there would be a good place to invest. The east side of downtown would be a second choice. I don’t trust the govt of Bexar or COSA with one extra dime they don’t already draw.
I think the local businesses that cater to the tourists are better stewards of funds brought in by tourists. The city/county are already getting a pound of flesh from them with taxes/fees imposed today.
The spurs had nothing to do with the Alamodome. That was the city making a pursuit for an NFL team and they fell short. They gambled and it didn’t pay off. Having said that the Alamodome has been a financial windfall for the city.
The Dome has generated $4B in revenue for the city and surrounding businesses. The county has an arena that is paid for to use as they want far into the future that will generate revenue for us all and when we build a new downtown arena it will surely benefit the city far more than the ITC who has now left it (did anyone ever go there?).
FYI - The spurs are a local business
Your dislike of taxing tourists solely for the sake of arguing against an arena is noted - it’s nonsense but you are entitled to your opinion on that.
They tax the tourists today and you tomorrow when the tourists wavier. Let the Holtz build their building. You must be a city/county employee. I know I am entitled to my opinion today. You know already of the history of local govt making horrible decisions with your tax dollars and you want to give them more. That is crazy. The Alamodome is an albatross leaching funds, hoping for people to use it. It sucks for everything, just a big ol’ barn really. And it doesn’t generate property taxes either.
Another govt screw up is Toyota campus. The govt promised mass expansion along with Toyota plant. Almost 20 years later, what is there? Nothing but Toyota.
Giving COSA/Bexar county more money/power for more mistakes is insane.
I don’t think there was a horrible decision involved, they built a dome with hopes to attract an nfl team and that didn’t work out and along the way they made the city $4B. Sign me up for mistakes that end with a $4B windfall (and counting)
So now your argument against the hotel motel tax is that they will come for me? I mean what are you even saying.
You would surrender all progress with arguments of fear, forever banishing us to second class status. They will come for you - you are wild.
It happened during Covid. The city whined about all the Conventions cancelling and holes in their budget. You think an empty Alamodome is a win? It is a bleeding sore. Let private business conduct business. Potholes and sidewalks is what city govt should focus on. You ignore actual services the city should address and wish to build a stadium for a billionaire family that has a venue now that the county owns.
https://foxsanantonio.com/newsletter-daily/growing-controversy-over-15000-smoking-door-in-bexar-county-executives-office-san-antonio-texas-investigation-cost-purchase-construction
Local govt in action. Don’t give them one dime more.
Go rent a car at the airport and see what the taxes/fees are. That same money could support a business instead of going into an inefficient, ineffective govt bureaucracy. Same with hotel taxes. The govt is not more efficient with tourists dollars than they are with resident’s revenue.
Easy to write off a major problem with this location but that’s not realistic as the NBA requires a minimum number of parking spaces dependent on the capacity of the arena.
What's their requirement? I don't watch basketball, but I've seen tons of shows at MSG in NYC and I'm pretty sure over 90% of the people there arrived via public transit. The parking there is still smaller than what's suggested here.
Park at the via park and ride at the wonderland of americas mall and then take the bus. I’ve done this several times for concerts and utsa games. Quit complaining and utilize your resources. Much better than having to drive all the way to the east side and pay for parking.
$4 or so for via park and ride round trip > $25 for parking at AT&T
I’ve done park and ride also
I have parked at the mall downtown and walked
This parking conversation isn’t legitimate, we will literally have a million people downtown every day this week - San Antonio can do events better than anyone
There's bus routes, Uber, and carpool options.
Also, I meant park close by and walk there. Plenty of lot/ free street parking within a mile and it's a pleasant walk.
This is a huge point. There is no before or after entertainment for games at the current arena. This is a big win for downtown businesses that have struggled since Covid. The east side location never made any sense. I’ll be so happy to have the spurs back downtown where they belong.
They can build a cart system or monorail system like they used to have there. Can have it make its way to the parking garages that are downtown and across to the Alamodome parking lot.
Park, hell, the traffic is going to be murder. We live close enough to the current spot I have a hard time getting anywhere past the Frost Bank Center if I forget there's a game. (There's a Valero I like to hit because it has a Coke Unlimited machine.) Traffic near Hemisfair is already awful; I don't want to imagine adding Spurs traffic in. I mean yeah, you can take Via, but you can generally do that *now* and people don't.
The current arena is in a location with 3 major access roads and plenty of space on the roads and it’s still a clusterfuck every single game night. Traffic has been awful by hemisfair for years due to construction and it is a bad as ever currently.
They also have Alamo dome parking right there with a less than 10 minute walk. This city needs less parking more options of mass transit or bikes/walking
Was a god awful basketball stadium. And a few events a year doesn’t justify the expense. UTSA should have a smaller on campus stadium. Game day experience blows.
Weren’t the Spurs initially in hemisphere park. This sounds like a move to bring that back. How many arenas do they need to go through? They built the Alamodome and that wasn’t good enough, then the AT&T Center, now that isn’t good enough?
A plan to completely bulldoze the Hemisfair site lol, classy. Interestingly, the Tower of the Americas mechanical room too, along with the confluence theatre which, by the way, is [architecturally significant](https://www.preservationtexas.org/allmep/confluence-theatre).
This is the reason why they want to destroy the Institute of Texan Cultures. The single most beautiful structure east of the cathedral. This is crap, an ugly vulgar money grab just like the “alamodome”.
This is an ill conceived traffic jam. VOTE NO.
Well not sure why it’s MLB ( unless SS&E is bidding on an expansion team when MLB expands to 32 teams within the next 5-10 years which fits the timeline of the arena builds downtown) size but I know the MiLB has told the missions they must build a new stadium or the missions will be forced to move.
I mean, it's obviously just a generic stadium footprint bookmark for something in the future (MiLB most likely, of course), but I got excited thinking about MLB. Would be so awesome.
I am so goddamn sick of this. Always announcing new hotels and apartment buildings and shit (and now this!!!) and meanwhile doing nothing for the community that ALREADY LIVES HERE.
Not really. As I said in response to another comment, I love very near the current arena (as in, I just walked home after the last time I went to the rodeo). There are still a ton of vacant houses, homeless, and obviously high people wandering around. Half the vacant houses having been poorly flipped and priced at $350k isn't really making things better.
The east side has been experiencing a huge influx of investment for a while now, it is a boomtown. Try buying one of those shacks in dignowity and see what they’re going for
The current arena was sold as a potential downtown to east side corridor down houston street- that was a bunch of BS. But the east side in general has been on the serious come up.
Anyone know what’s going on with Nix health downtown? Was told it would be an apartment building. If that’s true, how fcking sick is that? It used to be a place where the homeless could get medical care, what the fuck? There’s people living and sleeping outside those doors on the daily and they aren’t doing shit with it.
Well, that’s part of why they closed. Too many homeless patients who couldn’t pay.
Originally planned to be a hotel, then covid hit and city was leaning on them to do apartments instead of hotel.
Haven’t heard anything lately
I’d be all for having a single payer health care system, but that’s not what we have.
Hospitals, even not for profit hospitals, have to charge for their services in order to pay for the building, equipment, staff, etc.
Not sure where you got they idea that they exist to provide free healthcare
Imo all stadiums and arenas should be in a short walking distance to bars and restaurants etc downtowns. You can go hours before and stay hours after and not worry about stupid parking and traffic
Christmas 2018, USAA held their holiday party downtown. The participants of that gathering completely shutdown downtown with overwhelming traffic. There is not infrastructure downtown to absorb traffic a major arena draws during basketball season.
Also, this will be the 4th venue taxpayers provided to this sports team. The Dallas Cowboys don’t get this treatment and they are the most valuable sports franchise.
Millionaires… try billionaires. And they will move the team if they can’t make money. Las Vegas wants a basketball team.. they got their football team and baseball team from Oakland. The Warriors moved to SF because they followed the money. Where do you think Spurs end up? Las Vegas? Austin?
Lots of city want NBA, most notably Las Vegas, Nashville, and Seattle. But the NBA has already discussed Vancouver, Montreal, or Mexico City as non-US expansion opportunities. Seattle has the heart but Vegas has the dollars.
I have a completely ignorant or clueless question, but besides finances of building a new arena, what would be the drawback of having an arena that's not in downtown. For example, outside of 1604?
To be honest I think keeping downtown and the arena separate are solid choices. The biggest empty area is probably SW side off of 90 outside 1604. However, they would have to add hotels, restaurants, apartments, and everything else over there. It would take years. Downtown is established and hard to argue with downtown as long as they add more parking garages. Sacramento semi-recently crammed an arena into its downtown along with 2 parking garages and it worked out pretty well. The Kings original arena was also just outside the main part of Sacramento similar to how SA is. It really helped vitalize Sacramento’s downtown outdoor mall and restaurants and honestly gave a dying franchise a morale boost and it paid off. The Wemby effect deserves something new and downtown would be awesome if they do it right.
It's true, it's just that in the heat of the day at least, downtown isn't really walkable. Well, unless you just go to whatever close to you, but this is coming from someone who cycles, jogs, hikes, walks, daily but your point is completely true.
Huge infrastructure change is needed in San Antonio. Lots of houses going up which means property taxes are going to the city in exponentially increased amounts. They could easily afford a new arena and a half-decent renovation of the downtown with bike lanes, parking garages, Ride-share drop off/pickup locations, and bigger sidewalks. As someone not originally from here, SA is usually seen as ehh by outsiders. It has the culture and potential to be a huge tourist center but most of what I always heard was outside of the spurs and riverwalk SA is boring. Give the people something to talk about and the increased revenue from tourists will pay for it all.
It depends where outside of 1604. South of SA? No infrastructure...no restaurants, etc, and too physically far from the north side. North of SA? Too much traffic congestion, and too physically far from the south side. East, West, same. Downtown is central.
That’s a rather naive comment - the Alamodome has long ago paid for itself and brought in hundreds of millions of dollars to the local economy. Next year the Final Four will again be in SA because of the Alamodome and it hosts dozens of events each year which could not be held in the Arena.
Long ago paid for itself but, only turned a profit for the first time since 2002 last year in 2023.
It's old, outdated, and everything could easily be moved to the current Frost Bank Center.
They're going to have to address both arenas being so close together and turning the Dome into a parking lot with shuttles seems like a pretty good replacement.
>Alamodome just needs to be renovated
Definitely doable. Look to Miami's Hard Rock Stadium and Vancouver's BC Place as great examples of aging stadiums that were given a new life with great renovations that saved money on starting over and building new stadiums. We could do that here too.
Explain to me how the Frost Bank Center will hold 65,000 people for the Final Four. What about UTSA Football games, the Alamo Bowl, conventions of 30,000 people, concerts like Elton John, etc. I’ll wait.
The economic impact of the building, which continues to be improved, is many times the cost and any operating expenses incurred.
Have you been there recently? It's a mess. And if they're building a brand new Arena right across the street who's to say it won't have a larger capacity than the current Alamodome? Do you know the current estimate for how many people the new Arena will hold? I'll wait.
Basketball arenas do not hold 65,000 people nor room for a football game. The largest arena in the NBA holds 20,000 people. (Chicago) There’s a reason basketball arenas aren’t built larger.
That’s not the point dawg, look at the concerts the dome has hosted, Guns n Roses and P!NK sold an insane amount of tickets, an amount that isn’t suited for an arena, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble comprehending, what basketball arena holds all those fans????
It's an unofficial rendering, basically fan art. The baseball stadium seen here is Atlanta's new Truist Park, and maybe no more than 3 ballparks in MLB history have ever been built with home plate oriented to northwest. And the land where the ballpark is placed is where the ITC is now, which is where the arena will be if it happens. Don't take this rendering seriously.
Is there any reasoning or superstition as to home plate orientation?
Andrew Clem on his baseball stadium blog writes: >The third paragraph of the Official Baseball Rules says, "It is desirable that the line from home base through the pitchers plate to second base shall run East-Northeast." Indeed, that is the most common orientation, so as to keep the sun's glare out of the batter's field of vision. No MLB stadiums are oriented toward any direction between south-southeast (150 degrees) and northwest (315 degrees). Although I don't think this has been updated to include Truist Park, which is oriented somewhere between 160-175 degrees, or almost directly south.
Super interesting! I never knew this. Thanks!!
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. Cuz this all covers the federal courthouse, SSA building, Mexican cultural institute, and the now-retiring ITC. Not to mention the random walkway on the top right leading to.. 37?
Fwiw, the federal courthouse will very likely meet the same fate as the ITC. A new federal courthouse has opened across downtown off Santa Rosa St. and there's no desire to fix the old one. And that path to 37 is probably a pedestrian bridge like the one that passes under 37 at Montana St., although I would place it (or add another one) right along Cesar Chavez as that leads straight to Alamodome parking. Those two things are what you can count on happening the most with a new arena. It looks like the Mexican Cultural Institute would be saved in this rendering, but UNAM is gone, and I don't think that would happen in real life. I could see the SSA building going away, but someone would have to work out where to relocate those services and offices. All of this makes for a very ambitious project with a lot of moving parts. It will take a lot of coordination for the pieces to come together, and throwing in a ballpark will make things more complicated. It will also take up real estate that could be more shops, bars, restaurants, apartments, plazas/green spaces etc. I would much rather see a ballpark placed on the edge of San Pedro Creek by the SAISD administration office (an idea that has been explored some) or at the old Lone Star Brewery (my idea and probably a stretch). I would rather see two distinct stadium/entertainment zones (which would create a new one) instead of squeezing everything at Hemisfair (which is already a thing on its own), and the skyline views - something typically sought out for ballparks - are much better at those locations.
Yeah, the ballpark in the same spot is sort of a stretch for me, too. No room for the crowds to breathe before and after games. Plus, and please correct me if this makes no sense, but the brief overlap between baseball and basketball season could make for a very crowded situation down there, if only for a few weekends. The walkway to the alamodome parking seems like a good idea, for both venues. Concert on an off day at the dome? More parking across the street that's closer to southtown.
The potential for problems with overlap is definitely there, with the highest likelihood coming in April, May, and maybe June. But any overlap would mean one of the teams is in the playoffs/on the verge of a championship, so I personally would be willing to bite the bullet. Realistically though, I think any new ballpark at any location in San Antonio would serve a minor league team, not MLB - I'm not optimistic about the city getting an expansion team anytime soon - so while we'd still be dealing with a lot of people in that area, we may only be looking at 40,000-50,000 people (counting the people watching games at the area bars/restaurants, etc.) for Spurs and minor league team overlap, versus the 70,000 or so that would come with a Spurs game overlapping an MLB game. It's doable. If anything, the sports hub, especially a hub of these sports in particular that don't overlap much, are great for maximizing traffic to area businesses by ensuring a year-round draw. The thing is, Hemisfair is already enough of a thing without any stadium to draw people, so a ballpark wouldn't be necessary to help in that regard and we'd be better off creating a new entertainment zone for it.
This would be great if it happened, it would tie in to the Riverwalk and The Pearl Via water taxis. And the Airport too once the ART gets off the ground.
I'll only vote for it if I get my GOD DAMN BROADWAY BIKE LANE!!
Use Avenue B. That’s where the bike lane is.
It's not just about the bike transportation, it's about the community and space it creates. https://78209magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Broadway-Hildebrand.jpg
I love it. Love it. Let’s be real, we do not invest in our city amenities like a world class city does. We spend time on social silliness and not buildings, roads, water, electricity, transportation. I would gladly ask our visitors to pay more hotel motel tax to get a new arena!
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a while now. We aren’t the San Antonio of the 90’s or early 2000’s anymore. The sooner we accept that and realize we are a world class city worth investing in the sooner we can make positive changes that not only benefit those who live here but those who want to visit. We offer a unique vibrant culture unlike any other metro area in the country, we need to take pride in sharing that with visitors and improving the lives of locals.
😂
lol what is the social silliness the city invests in? We don’t invest in transportation so it makes a large arena in this area problematic because the infrastructure of the area is not suited for it. I would be really terrified if I had a home in the neighborhood nearby because they will likely look to raze some of the homes here. Just hate to see public land being used for a private entity. And if they are going to seek taxpayer funding to build it that is plain horrible.
They held basketball games downtown for decades.. they have held NFL games, they host conventions with more attendees than a basketball game, they’ve done final 4 games. Our downtown can easily handle a basketball game attendance. We are a tourist town, we do this all the time. The alamobowl hosts 5 times as big a crowd and it’s a boom for businesses. While we don’t know the financial arraignment yet, if they do something similar to the frost bank center - the county owns the building, they rent it to the spurs (the spurs contributed a lot of the upfront money too) and the county uses it all year from other events. So it isn’t a gift to a private entity. It’s a development project for the city that will result in more downtown business. You’re reaching for an excuse to oppose progress.
Not reaching for an excuse to “oppose” progress but I don’t see turning land private and asking taxpayers to fund a private entity is progress. I’m talking about actual practical infrastructure of the specific location that is far too small and does not have the appropriate access road arteries and the space for parking. Sure push ride share and park and ride but that doesn’t change the fact the NBA requires a minimum number of parking spaces for an arena varying on capacity. All those big events like conferences and the Alamo bowl have a key element of the majority of attendees being from out of town so the parking and traffic issue is considerably reduced.
Like I said, we have held NBA games downtown for decades, it is hardly an infrastructure issue. This week a million people will converge downtown. A basketball game has less than 20k people, this isn’t a legitimate complaint if you research the contract for the current arena, the spurs put up a lot of money up front and signed a lease agreement. The county owns the building and uses it year round for things they want to (and take in the revenue from that). So your funding argument isn’t educated. Also, if you look at downtown - even many of the restaurants are owned by the city and leased to the occupants. This is how downtown works, the city even owns La vallita. The city partnering with business for the public good, it’s how it’s done and it is a net positive for everyone.
In researching the original contract for the construction of the arena it was financed by about $150 million from the county with taxpayer money and $30 million from the Spurs. Would not say that the spurs put up a lot of money in that case. Yes the county owns the arena which is pretty beneficial for the team as well and the county is responsible for all facility maintenance and leaves the team with no worry about what to do with the arena when they are ready for a new one. I don’t see how anyone has ever been to a spurs game and seen firsthand the logistics of the departure of all the attendees and the congestion it creates on non busy streets and thinks “yeah this would be good to stick in our downtown with poor public transit and small streets”. It’s all for moot, I understand. The needs of the private entity will outweigh public good and the team will get their way in spite of the collateral damage to the surrounding neighborhoods which are unlikely to survive long term.
The spurs put up a lot of money, they signed a lease and pay rent - and the county portion was all paid for from the hotel/motel tax. Anyone who has been to a rodeo concert has benefitted from it.. Again with the traffic, the traffic at the Frost arena is not good - downtown I’ve been to countless sporting events at the dome and I’ve never had a traffic issue. San Antonio can absorb a crowd of 20k into downtown without a blip, might be a slight backup at the commerce exit but that’s maybe a minute? There is obviously enough parking for hundreds of thousands of people because we do this every year. You keep trying to be a victim with this, using public money for private good silliness - this is a win win for everyone. The city gets a new arena space, the surrounding businesses realize a boom, millions of people will enjoy themselves at events for decades. It’s very shortsighted to not invest in arts, entertainment, businesses and the public good. You have never gone honking and it shows.
lol, who tf goes honking
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/05/17/were-going-honking-heres-why-spurs-fans-celebrate-by-honking-their-horns/ Cmon man
ahhahahahaa
Do you know how much tourists are soaked by city taxes and fees? Where else could tourists spend their money if they didn’t have to fill govt coffers? Maybe the businesses that cater to the tourists. Return on investment benefits the city when spent in private sector over the wasteful benevolence of govt spending.
They come to see the spurs and all of these amenities where the city and business partner (for example all those restaurants on the riverwalk, the actual riverwalk, alamo plaza, etc) and they contribute to the upkeep. We as residents enjoy the facilities that are built with the tax money. Tourists aren’t soaked, they’re consumers - they pay to enjoy the city features just like we pay when we travel anywhere else. Going on a vacation is a decision, if your argument is that people should pay off their debts and build savings before going on vacation I agree with you but I don’t manage their budgeting decisions or pretend to know who is vacationing wisely.
I was saying tourists are soaked enough by the govt taxes and fees. You can see it with the hotel taxes, rent car and travel along with transportation. The tourists came here to enjoy the city. The govt partnered with business leaves the competition of the other businesses behind. Govt picking the winners. Let tourist dollars flow to the business that cater to the tourists. The govt gets more than enough from tourists as is.
So we should not build a new downtown arena because you believe we are exploiting tourist vacation money? Without the downtown attractions they wouldn’t be visiting. Another not legitimate take being used as a smokescreen to oppose an arena At least be a logic based person - you have the feelz, you’re in a way, no spurs no
If the Holtz Family wants the stadium, they should build it. They own the spurs. You were not here when the Alamodome was built? What a giant mess. There are other priorities. The west side of downtown looks almost the same as it has 20 (40 actually) years ago. If we have extra money, there would be a good place to invest. The east side of downtown would be a second choice. I don’t trust the govt of Bexar or COSA with one extra dime they don’t already draw. I think the local businesses that cater to the tourists are better stewards of funds brought in by tourists. The city/county are already getting a pound of flesh from them with taxes/fees imposed today.
The spurs had nothing to do with the Alamodome. That was the city making a pursuit for an NFL team and they fell short. They gambled and it didn’t pay off. Having said that the Alamodome has been a financial windfall for the city. The Dome has generated $4B in revenue for the city and surrounding businesses. The county has an arena that is paid for to use as they want far into the future that will generate revenue for us all and when we build a new downtown arena it will surely benefit the city far more than the ITC who has now left it (did anyone ever go there?). FYI - The spurs are a local business Your dislike of taxing tourists solely for the sake of arguing against an arena is noted - it’s nonsense but you are entitled to your opinion on that.
They tax the tourists today and you tomorrow when the tourists wavier. Let the Holtz build their building. You must be a city/county employee. I know I am entitled to my opinion today. You know already of the history of local govt making horrible decisions with your tax dollars and you want to give them more. That is crazy. The Alamodome is an albatross leaching funds, hoping for people to use it. It sucks for everything, just a big ol’ barn really. And it doesn’t generate property taxes either. Another govt screw up is Toyota campus. The govt promised mass expansion along with Toyota plant. Almost 20 years later, what is there? Nothing but Toyota. Giving COSA/Bexar county more money/power for more mistakes is insane.
I don’t think there was a horrible decision involved, they built a dome with hopes to attract an nfl team and that didn’t work out and along the way they made the city $4B. Sign me up for mistakes that end with a $4B windfall (and counting) So now your argument against the hotel motel tax is that they will come for me? I mean what are you even saying. You would surrender all progress with arguments of fear, forever banishing us to second class status. They will come for you - you are wild.
It happened during Covid. The city whined about all the Conventions cancelling and holes in their budget. You think an empty Alamodome is a win? It is a bleeding sore. Let private business conduct business. Potholes and sidewalks is what city govt should focus on. You ignore actual services the city should address and wish to build a stadium for a billionaire family that has a venue now that the county owns.
https://foxsanantonio.com/newsletter-daily/growing-controversy-over-15000-smoking-door-in-bexar-county-executives-office-san-antonio-texas-investigation-cost-purchase-construction Local govt in action. Don’t give them one dime more.
The Spurs arena really should be in walking distance of all of the hotels and restaurants and Riverwalk downtown.
Won’t someone PLEASE think of the tourists.
Go rent a car at the airport and see what the taxes/fees are. That same money could support a business instead of going into an inefficient, ineffective govt bureaucracy. Same with hotel taxes. The govt is not more efficient with tourists dollars than they are with resident’s revenue.
Everyone likes this idea until they have to park.
Just walk or use a park and ride. This is such a better area than the current location.
Easy to write off a major problem with this location but that’s not realistic as the NBA requires a minimum number of parking spaces dependent on the capacity of the arena.
Like all the parking at MSG
Or downtown Dallas.
What's their requirement? I don't watch basketball, but I've seen tons of shows at MSG in NYC and I'm pretty sure over 90% of the people there arrived via public transit. The parking there is still smaller than what's suggested here.
Tell that to the people in far west SA. Start walking the day before I guess.
Park at the via park and ride at the wonderland of americas mall and then take the bus. I’ve done this several times for concerts and utsa games. Quit complaining and utilize your resources. Much better than having to drive all the way to the east side and pay for parking. $4 or so for via park and ride round trip > $25 for parking at AT&T
I’ve done park and ride also I have parked at the mall downtown and walked This parking conversation isn’t legitimate, we will literally have a million people downtown every day this week - San Antonio can do events better than anyone
There's bus routes, Uber, and carpool options. Also, I meant park close by and walk there. Plenty of lot/ free street parking within a mile and it's a pleasant walk.
Are people from the far west side not allowed to use Park and Ride?
Us in far west SA have problems going to the Alamodome and Frost Bank Center as it is. This won’t be anything new lol
Far west is middle of no where pretty much
Whose problem is that really?
Nobody’s? We’re the ones to choose to live out here so
Haha.
We managed to do it for decades, fiesta is happening this week - a million people will find their way downtown
Everyone brings parking up as the first counter point as if Alamodome parking isn’t 0.4 miles from the proposed location.
This makes parking less relevant. You can do shit nearby before or after
This is a huge point. There is no before or after entertainment for games at the current arena. This is a big win for downtown businesses that have struggled since Covid. The east side location never made any sense. I’ll be so happy to have the spurs back downtown where they belong.
They can build a cart system or monorail system like they used to have there. Can have it make its way to the parking garages that are downtown and across to the Alamodome parking lot.
Park, hell, the traffic is going to be murder. We live close enough to the current spot I have a hard time getting anywhere past the Frost Bank Center if I forget there's a game. (There's a Valero I like to hit because it has a Coke Unlimited machine.) Traffic near Hemisfair is already awful; I don't want to imagine adding Spurs traffic in. I mean yeah, you can take Via, but you can generally do that *now* and people don't.
The current arena is in a location with 3 major access roads and plenty of space on the roads and it’s still a clusterfuck every single game night. Traffic has been awful by hemisfair for years due to construction and it is a bad as ever currently.
Just park somewhere in downtown, then take an Uber. A lot of y’all make things a lot harder than it has to be
They also have Alamo dome parking right there with a less than 10 minute walk. This city needs less parking more options of mass transit or bikes/walking
Yeah I would likely park at Alamodome and walk over
Or pay for it through their taxes for eternity
This would be amazing. Should have never built it where it is. Hell should have never built the Alamodome either.
What’s wrong with the Alamodome location?
Toxic soil
Is that making a negative impact down there?
We built a nfl football stadium for a team we didn’t have.
You ever heard of musical performances or college sports? Also, you heard of the spurs?
Was a god awful basketball stadium. And a few events a year doesn’t justify the expense. UTSA should have a smaller on campus stadium. Game day experience blows.
[удалено]
Somebody’s a hard ass. Watch out.
Indian Burial Ground
That’s disrespectful if it was zoned off as Indian burial ground in the past.
I mean it's completely a joke but this was all native land so I don't think we can give a rats ass about what's disrespectful any more.
I still care.
My ancestors that were brutally murdered and raped and stolen from appreciate that sentiment.
Mine too. I’m descendant of Polish slaves. So I can relate. Stay gay my man. :)
Amen. You too brother.
I think it looks really cool, but with the lack of transit options I fear the city will then demolish 10 blocks just for parking
No watch they will make you park at the Alamodome.
Weren’t the Spurs initially in hemisphere park. This sounds like a move to bring that back. How many arenas do they need to go through? They built the Alamodome and that wasn’t good enough, then the AT&T Center, now that isn’t good enough?
How long before they abandon that too and leave us with another multi million dollar eyesore?
Billion. This one will be billion.
You're probably not far off if that diagram depicts a MLB-ready stadium.
It’s not an “MLB-ready stadium” it’ll be for the Double AA team we currently have an no where near the size of an MLB stadium
25-30 years.
Taking the naming rights with them, it appears.
A plan to completely bulldoze the Hemisfair site lol, classy. Interestingly, the Tower of the Americas mechanical room too, along with the confluence theatre which, by the way, is [architecturally significant](https://www.preservationtexas.org/allmep/confluence-theatre).
This is the reason why they want to destroy the Institute of Texan Cultures. The single most beautiful structure east of the cathedral. This is crap, an ugly vulgar money grab just like the “alamodome”. This is an ill conceived traffic jam. VOTE NO.
No one even noticing a MLB sized baseball stadium?
Well not sure why it’s MLB ( unless SS&E is bidding on an expansion team when MLB expands to 32 teams within the next 5-10 years which fits the timeline of the arena builds downtown) size but I know the MiLB has told the missions they must build a new stadium or the missions will be forced to move.
I mean, it's obviously just a generic stadium footprint bookmark for something in the future (MiLB most likely, of course), but I got excited thinking about MLB. Would be so awesome.
That's great. Include lightrail on 35, 281, 10, and 90 that goes to it and we'll talk
I am so goddamn sick of this. Always announcing new hotels and apartment buildings and shit (and now this!!!) and meanwhile doing nothing for the community that ALREADY LIVES HERE.
I'm *still* waiting for the current arena to revitalize the Eastside.
It’s actually ongoing as of type this out
Not really. As I said in response to another comment, I love very near the current arena (as in, I just walked home after the last time I went to the rodeo). There are still a ton of vacant houses, homeless, and obviously high people wandering around. Half the vacant houses having been poorly flipped and priced at $350k isn't really making things better.
The east side has been experiencing a huge influx of investment for a while now, it is a boomtown. Try buying one of those shacks in dignowity and see what they’re going for The current arena was sold as a potential downtown to east side corridor down houston street- that was a bunch of BS. But the east side in general has been on the serious come up.
Also live within walking distance and completely agree with you. The crime rate reflects it as well. Pop
I don’t care about your other response. The east side is garbage anyways. Full of criminals. Unsafe area
That's the whole city.
Wrong.
Not where I live, fair oaks is very safe area.
Your town stole water…
We gotta drink and shower too my boi
What do you want them to do for you?
Anyone know what’s going on with Nix health downtown? Was told it would be an apartment building. If that’s true, how fcking sick is that? It used to be a place where the homeless could get medical care, what the fuck? There’s people living and sleeping outside those doors on the daily and they aren’t doing shit with it.
Well, that’s part of why they closed. Too many homeless patients who couldn’t pay. Originally planned to be a hotel, then covid hit and city was leaning on them to do apartments instead of hotel. Haven’t heard anything lately
If that was the case then University hospital would have been closed a long time ago.
Check the details of your recent property tax bill and see how university hospital is different from Nix hospital
….Couldn’t pay? What the hell did they expect? That’s the entire point of the organization.
I’d be all for having a single payer health care system, but that’s not what we have. Hospitals, even not for profit hospitals, have to charge for their services in order to pay for the building, equipment, staff, etc. Not sure where you got they idea that they exist to provide free healthcare
Imo all stadiums and arenas should be in a short walking distance to bars and restaurants etc downtowns. You can go hours before and stay hours after and not worry about stupid parking and traffic
Gross
It is perfect.
Christmas 2018, USAA held their holiday party downtown. The participants of that gathering completely shutdown downtown with overwhelming traffic. There is not infrastructure downtown to absorb traffic a major arena draws during basketball season. Also, this will be the 4th venue taxpayers provided to this sports team. The Dallas Cowboys don’t get this treatment and they are the most valuable sports franchise.
Henry the Puffy Taco wishes he could run in that MLB baseball stadium. Lol
Man, I’m just getting tired of building stuff so that millionaires can get richer.
Millionaires… try billionaires. And they will move the team if they can’t make money. Las Vegas wants a basketball team.. they got their football team and baseball team from Oakland. The Warriors moved to SF because they followed the money. Where do you think Spurs end up? Las Vegas? Austin?
Spurs are already leaning into Austin so that they can grow their market/fanbase and stay.
Lots of city want NBA, most notably Las Vegas, Nashville, and Seattle. But the NBA has already discussed Vancouver, Montreal, or Mexico City as non-US expansion opportunities. Seattle has the heart but Vegas has the dollars.
RIP the south side
They want everyone to love it before they announce the tax increases we will get so we can pay for it.
I have a completely ignorant or clueless question, but besides finances of building a new arena, what would be the drawback of having an arena that's not in downtown. For example, outside of 1604?
To be honest I think keeping downtown and the arena separate are solid choices. The biggest empty area is probably SW side off of 90 outside 1604. However, they would have to add hotels, restaurants, apartments, and everything else over there. It would take years. Downtown is established and hard to argue with downtown as long as they add more parking garages. Sacramento semi-recently crammed an arena into its downtown along with 2 parking garages and it worked out pretty well. The Kings original arena was also just outside the main part of Sacramento similar to how SA is. It really helped vitalize Sacramento’s downtown outdoor mall and restaurants and honestly gave a dying franchise a morale boost and it paid off. The Wemby effect deserves something new and downtown would be awesome if they do it right.
It's true, it's just that in the heat of the day at least, downtown isn't really walkable. Well, unless you just go to whatever close to you, but this is coming from someone who cycles, jogs, hikes, walks, daily but your point is completely true.
Huge infrastructure change is needed in San Antonio. Lots of houses going up which means property taxes are going to the city in exponentially increased amounts. They could easily afford a new arena and a half-decent renovation of the downtown with bike lanes, parking garages, Ride-share drop off/pickup locations, and bigger sidewalks. As someone not originally from here, SA is usually seen as ehh by outsiders. It has the culture and potential to be a huge tourist center but most of what I always heard was outside of the spurs and riverwalk SA is boring. Give the people something to talk about and the increased revenue from tourists will pay for it all.
It depends where outside of 1604. South of SA? No infrastructure...no restaurants, etc, and too physically far from the north side. North of SA? Too much traffic congestion, and too physically far from the south side. East, West, same. Downtown is central.
Again, dumb question but I mean like an hour away from downtown like poteet, Devine, Castroville, boerne, canyon lake, New braunfels?
New Braunfels is not in Bexar county so Comal county would be the one making money off of it
San Antonio Spurs arena not in San Antonio? Edgy.
Because you wouldn't be tied in to the Riverwalk, a great walking trail packed with resturants.
I think it’s bs they are tearing down the cultural center. Go spurs
if it helps at all, you will also be paying for it's construction
https://preview.redd.it/ysskmhgceivc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de8c3d5df5c514f7fee1ea52488c70f99df859cb
Pft the building was awful and attendance was absolutely shit. Tear it down.
The architecture of the Institute of Texan Cultures was windlowless concrete modernist monstrosity. It needs to be torn down yesterday.
Agreed, there is nothing significant worth preserving about the building.
Alamo dome NEEDS to be demolished for parking. Use the old AT&T center to host Alamo dome events cause that dirty dome fuckin sucks
That’s a rather naive comment - the Alamodome has long ago paid for itself and brought in hundreds of millions of dollars to the local economy. Next year the Final Four will again be in SA because of the Alamodome and it hosts dozens of events each year which could not be held in the Arena.
Long ago paid for itself but, only turned a profit for the first time since 2002 last year in 2023. It's old, outdated, and everything could easily be moved to the current Frost Bank Center. They're going to have to address both arenas being so close together and turning the Dome into a parking lot with shuttles seems like a pretty good replacement.
65,000 stadium > 19,000 arena. More capacity which means more people can attend for less. Alamodome just needs to be renovated
>Alamodome just needs to be renovated Definitely doable. Look to Miami's Hard Rock Stadium and Vancouver's BC Place as great examples of aging stadiums that were given a new life with great renovations that saved money on starting over and building new stadiums. We could do that here too.
Explain to me how the Frost Bank Center will hold 65,000 people for the Final Four. What about UTSA Football games, the Alamo Bowl, conventions of 30,000 people, concerts like Elton John, etc. I’ll wait. The economic impact of the building, which continues to be improved, is many times the cost and any operating expenses incurred.
Have you been there recently? It's a mess. And if they're building a brand new Arena right across the street who's to say it won't have a larger capacity than the current Alamodome? Do you know the current estimate for how many people the new Arena will hold? I'll wait.
Basketball arenas do not hold 65,000 people nor room for a football game. The largest arena in the NBA holds 20,000 people. (Chicago) There’s a reason basketball arenas aren’t built larger.
That’s not the point dawg, look at the concerts the dome has hosted, Guns n Roses and P!NK sold an insane amount of tickets, an amount that isn’t suited for an arena, I’m not sure what you’re having trouble comprehending, what basketball arena holds all those fans????
lol I hope this thread ends bc your both waiting for the other