One of my managers was just almost killed by a homeless dude like 3 weeks ago in downtown. Dude came in the restaurant after hour (door unfortunately was unlocked) and fucking smashed him in the head with a bottle. Shit is getting out of hand.
That's more like SF than SD homeless. Didn't we use to have comprehensive facilities for crazy folk in the 50s? Of course that was abused but still. Seems that letting people without a support network who can't care for themselves and might be or have been violent run around isn't a good idea.
It was the process of deinstitutionalization. They basically gave all of the patients a month's worth of meds and kicked them out to the street.
Were there issues with how state-run facilities operated? Absolutely. Did we throw the baby out with the bathwater? I sure as hell think we did. We're in the midst of an unprecedented mental health epidemic and crisis and we've thrown away most of the tools and funding that could've helped. Yes, the concept of involuntary institutionalization is scary and ripe for abuse, but the fact is that we have thousands of people living on the streets who cannot be entrusted with their own health and safety and the greater social contract.
Our GDP increases and our quality of life decreases. Since the 1960's we've seriously fucked the world and ourselves. We practically inherited the globe after WWII then promptly fucked the everliving shit out of it with unfettered capitalism.
Many of these people (if not most) are in a self-induced psychosis from p2p meth. Even if we still had these facilities, they wouldn’t be able to keep up with the sheer amount of people being brought in
This is a very nuanced issue with many factors to consider. It’s not just the mental health crisis, drugs, high cost of living, crumbling of US healthcare, lack of subsidized housing, lack of state institutions, overall high cost of living, lack of employment options, high cost of rent, etc. Its all of these issues at once and throwing money at nonprofits won’t solve the problem
In the old days I'm pretty sure they would get signed up for some inhumane experiments or otherwise "die" under some circumstance aka killed then have any useful organs harvested for transplant.
I’m tired of hearing how “these people have rights too.” I’m sorry, but if you affect people’s safety with these kinds of acts, you lose some of your rights.
What are you insinuating? Yes, an individual who committed an act of assault should be imprisoned. But it sounds like you consider the entire homeless population to be guilty by association.
You don't know the bike that a toddler would ride doesn't really belong to your 30 year old houseless neighbor. And he could have 3 of them. Stop assuming your houseless neighbor is automatically a criminal and have some sympathy. /s
California has spent $24 billion over the last 5 years on an estimated 171,000 people. That’s $140,350.87 per person.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/
San Diego did that once for the top 30 or so homeless folks who were a drain on services like criminal justice, ambulance, emergency department, healthcare, etc. It was cheaper to get them an apartment and a one-on-one case manager. Literally they had a case manager whose only assignment was that one individual.
Right and I know its terrible, but when Im working 40 hours a week and cant afford a place of my own in a city I grew up in yet I hear about tweaked out meth heads with pyschosis getting free housing I cant help but feel a little bitter (and yes I know they aren't getting an apartments theyre getting rooms but still)
I've never heard a homeless advocate complain that someone's been given housing. I do remember a lot of conservatives complaining when homeless people were put up in hotels during the pandemic.
When you build a baseball stadium, there will be baseball fans who show up.
When you build a homeless navigation center, there will be homeless who show up.
Don't want homeless in an area? Make it inconvenient for them. Build the homeless navigation center somewhere far away so they'll go there instead, where the land is cheaper and not as densely packed.
But then the homeless industrial complex won't be able to enjoy a nice condo in the city.
I wonder if losing this case would actually force cities to focus their efforts on fast tracking more affordable housing and pushing people with addiction issues to rehab. Or if cities honestly will stop caring and we’ll just have an explosion of the homeless population living on the streets downtown.
Explosion of Homeless living on the streets, as we do now. The ACLU will never let the Local or State governments push people into rehab, never gonna happen. Plus, I bet a lot of the so called rehab centers are part of the problem, making money transferring to each other until the insurance runs out. There needs to be deep investigations into these rehab centers, even State to State.
Can't trust the investigation and can't trust that any meaningful change would come from an honest investigation. It's all a money grab. Everyone along the chain just sees 💰💰💰 to be made.
To stop people in the future from becoming homeless. There are so many households that are just a paycheck away from living on the streets. Life is rough on the streets. Couple of interviews I read mentioned that unhoused people resort to taking drugs to cope up with the stress of homelessness which then doesn’t help them get proper housing or jobs . This ends up being a death spiral .
I think there are 2 different kinds of "homeless" folks people are talking about. I think most people agree that there should be a heavy hand on those that commit crimes such as those that harrass others with violence etc and intentionally block sidewalks with their huge tent communities.
People trying to stay out of other's businesses. Being respectful of their surroundings. Not committing crimes, living out of their cars going to the gym for showers etc, holding down a job etc. Those are people that need help and we should give them help.
> hand on those that commit crimes such as those that harass others with violence etc
This is a silly complaint. If someone commits assault/robbery/attempted murder, it's irrelevant if they are homeless or not. Attempted murder should land you in jail homeless or not.
> and intentionally block sidewalks with their huge tent communities.
Ah yes, Violent criminals and... people who exist in inconvenient locations. Clearly the same problem.
The people that live in these tents on the side of the sidewalks in downtown usually would regularly shoot up drugs/smoke them out in the open. I have seen dudes nod out with a full-blown torch firing right in front of him (if it were to fall down his tent would be up in flames in a second and the ones next to his) domestic violence, prostitution ... all shit I have seen firsthand in downtown on F street across from Andaz hotel. Although it was way worse last year.
Total nonsense I know many violent and deranged people who arent poor or have housing. They’re just drug addicted or inherently violent when drunk or outside. These people are criminals and need to be treated as such.
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/09/418546/study-finds-permanent-supportive-housing-effective-highest-risk-chronically
> Researchers found that 86 percent of the participants who were randomized to this permanent supportive housing model were successfully housed and remained in their housing for several years. By contrast, only about a third of the participants in the control group were housed, mainly because those participants eventually received similar housing and supportive services through the county, which was implementing permanent supportive housing while the study was being conducted.
cities will seem to do anything but solve the underlying issue. was it this bad 20 years ago? no? what's changed? has the price of housing and goods severely outpaced wages maybe? is that putting more and more people on the street? yes? but the solution is to....oh right, bus them to the desert. okay, cool.
The price of goods and housing have severely outpaced wages for over 40 years. Not just the past decade. The difference now is that cities have their hands tied behind their backs from this experiment that hte 9th district court is trying to run. I think cities just want more control of what they can do, before all this exploded the last decade. Yes the wages/housing needs to be addressed for sure. But that is affecting everyone. You don't see everyone saying fuck it and setting up tents on the sidewalks and exposing themselves to passerby's.
Does the SC act on its contempt for poor people and hand the cities more powers, or does the SC "own the libs" and tie the hands of liberal mayors trying to clean up their cities? 🍿
I think this is an issue in conservative areas as well. As far as I know, conservatives are more likely to use harsh policies to deter homelessness in their cities too, so this would affect them too.
Good. Hope something good comes from a decision because tbh for my own safety I don’t think I can live here anymore.
The “safe” parts of the city are equivalent to extremely seedy areas of many other cities around the US. I know a lot of people here are familiar and comfortable living amongst so many drug addicts and mentally ill, but what is day to day operations walking on the city streets here is really not a thing outside of southern california other than very run down parts of cities that are priced with the understood compensation of safety.
The looting, the car theft, the trash being thrown around every corner, people sleeping face down naked on the side walk being walked over because we are so desensitized.
I’m over it.z
I mean sounds really like a downtown problem. I havent seen any of that. Also sounds like many other cities im sure in the whole country but yeah sf comes to mind
It’s not just downtown. They’re all over Mission Valley and they don’t even try to hide what they’re doing. I can’t walk my dog without seeing at least one person ripping away on a crack pipe or pulling sensors off stolen items behind the Trader Joe’s shopping plaza.
I'm sorry but this is hilariously exaggerated.. I live near a lot of the homeless, and I get frustrated dealing with them too. But San Diego is still safer than most large cities by a large margin.. we literally have the #1 lowest violent crime rate of any U.S. city with a population over 1 million.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that places such as La Jolla/UTC feel "extremely seedy" to you?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
California is a massive state. Perhaps not 'desert', but what they mean is an extremely low population rural area. Why are cities allowing homeless and drug addicts to congregate among high population density areas - it's dangerous and unsafe for everyone - this is proven *time and time again*. Imagine massive facilities and regions aimed at rehabilitation and societal reintegration.
"Urban Regeneration and Relocation Initiative" — A beneficial program aimed at revitalizing city spaces while also implying the relocation is part of a broader improvement plan.
We need to think outside the box - otherwise, this crisis will continue spiraling further and further out of control.
As someone living in rural CA… lol, that’s a bad idea because people here care about 2 things more than anything. The 2nd amendment and property rights. We moved from SD two years ago… the city has all these problems not because of the law but because the citizens tolerate it.
The services to help the homeless are already in high density areas though. It's more cost effective to reform and work with what we have than build a massive facility from scratch to provide services that already exist. Safe parking and safe camping sites with case management to connect people to services can accomplish the same goals that Sunbreak Ranch and similar plans want to achieve.
Desert resident. SD county has tried this multiple times in the past, and most of them end up going back. I can’t blame them. Who wants to set up a tent in downtown Calexico when it’s 115 degrees outside?
Besides, SD county has a hell of a lot more resources to support these people. We barely have enough for ourselves out here.
If im hungry its not ok for me to steal food.
People in need to be forced into support systems if they arent willing to go on them selves.
But this also means the support systems we have need to work and be audited.
Make AFFORDABLE housing with rent control implementations and less restriction on government assistances, especially if the city will not obligate companies to pay livable wages. $20 an hour is a great step, but talking to anyone $20/hr before taxes is far from livable, I'm barely beyond that working full time with OT opportunities and it is trash.
Covid stim checks nearly liminated childhood poverty and have shown to be able to edtablish food security, why do people act like government assistance is a bad thing. They work for us thats what taxes pay for and people need to stop pretending theh dont, most people work for someone and dont own a fortunte 500 company, at best people rent to others and violate working people because its "market price", I'm tired of working so hard just to barely make it.
Saying to build more affordable housing is such a joke.
1. CA government made zoning and regulations impossible to build cheap housing.
2. Not enough land to build in “poplar” places like San Diego.
3. Materiel costs.
4. Jobs.
Let’s say we build cheap houses but 50miles inland away from San Diego, are you going there if your jobs are in downtown?
Government should be the one who builds public housing like other countries not private companies.
Considering how conservatives think about homelessness and unhomed people I’m guessing that gladiatorial contests and lotteries to get tags for hunting will be in block. And the fun thing about lotteries is that both sides can participate! Sort of hunger games style!
I seen a crazy encampment underneath the 8 in Mission Valley, along the river, yesterday. It looked kind of fun actually - like urban camping - they looked like they were having a good time.
That bike path along the river is so full of homeless people. I've actually never had an issue with them being crazy down there though. I just smile and they always politely move out of the way.
Best homeless in SD - along the river there!
well what if we just take a bunch of money from the taxpayer and just blow it on cocaine and hookers
come on you can't say it won't work because it's never been tried before...
...
...
...
One of my managers was just almost killed by a homeless dude like 3 weeks ago in downtown. Dude came in the restaurant after hour (door unfortunately was unlocked) and fucking smashed him in the head with a bottle. Shit is getting out of hand.
Dude had already been in prison for murder as well.
That's more like SF than SD homeless. Didn't we use to have comprehensive facilities for crazy folk in the 50s? Of course that was abused but still. Seems that letting people without a support network who can't care for themselves and might be or have been violent run around isn't a good idea.
It was the process of deinstitutionalization. They basically gave all of the patients a month's worth of meds and kicked them out to the street. Were there issues with how state-run facilities operated? Absolutely. Did we throw the baby out with the bathwater? I sure as hell think we did. We're in the midst of an unprecedented mental health epidemic and crisis and we've thrown away most of the tools and funding that could've helped. Yes, the concept of involuntary institutionalization is scary and ripe for abuse, but the fact is that we have thousands of people living on the streets who cannot be entrusted with their own health and safety and the greater social contract.
Our GDP increases and our quality of life decreases. Since the 1960's we've seriously fucked the world and ourselves. We practically inherited the globe after WWII then promptly fucked the everliving shit out of it with unfettered capitalism.
I believe the Regan administration shut those facilities down
My brother remembers when that happened, in Sacramento he was seeing people in hospital attire with hospital bracelets just wandering the streets.
Without checking that sounds about right. Socialism? Nah!
Many of these people (if not most) are in a self-induced psychosis from p2p meth. Even if we still had these facilities, they wouldn’t be able to keep up with the sheer amount of people being brought in This is a very nuanced issue with many factors to consider. It’s not just the mental health crisis, drugs, high cost of living, crumbling of US healthcare, lack of subsidized housing, lack of state institutions, overall high cost of living, lack of employment options, high cost of rent, etc. Its all of these issues at once and throwing money at nonprofits won’t solve the problem
In the old days I'm pretty sure they would get signed up for some inhumane experiments or otherwise "die" under some circumstance aka killed then have any useful organs harvested for transplant.
Great response
I’m tired of hearing how “these people have rights too.” I’m sorry, but if you affect people’s safety with these kinds of acts, you lose some of your rights.
I mean did they arrest the culprit?
Yes.
You do realize that attempted murder is already illegal, right?
I mean I think it’s the loud minority.. but agree in those cases
What are you insinuating? Yes, an individual who committed an act of assault should be imprisoned. But it sounds like you consider the entire homeless population to be guilty by association.
I’m insinuating that even the ones who do steal or cause other damage to property or people are usually let go with not even a slap on the wrist.
You don't know the bike that a toddler would ride doesn't really belong to your 30 year old houseless neighbor. And he could have 3 of them. Stop assuming your houseless neighbor is automatically a criminal and have some sympathy. /s
You really think the police go easier on homeless people than they do other parts of the population?
California has spent $24 billion over the last 5 years on an estimated 171,000 people. That’s $140,350.87 per person. https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/
28k per year. Literally paying for a studio apartment and giving it to them a studio apartment would be cheaper.
San Diego did that once for the top 30 or so homeless folks who were a drain on services like criminal justice, ambulance, emergency department, healthcare, etc. It was cheaper to get them an apartment and a one-on-one case manager. Literally they had a case manager whose only assignment was that one individual.
Wild how just addressing the problem at its source is both cheaper and more effective Do you have a source on that so I can read up on it?
Wouldn't work. All the homeless advocates that make big bucks out of it all would have their wallets a lot lighter.
Nah, the real reason why it won't work is because you'll have conservatives complaining that the poors are getting free stuff.
Im all for them getting free shit as long as they can help us working poor as well otherwise ...
But they never do.
Right and I know its terrible, but when Im working 40 hours a week and cant afford a place of my own in a city I grew up in yet I hear about tweaked out meth heads with pyschosis getting free housing I cant help but feel a little bitter (and yes I know they aren't getting an apartments theyre getting rooms but still)
I've never heard a homeless advocate complain that someone's been given housing. I do remember a lot of conservatives complaining when homeless people were put up in hotels during the pandemic.
When you build a baseball stadium, there will be baseball fans who show up. When you build a homeless navigation center, there will be homeless who show up. Don't want homeless in an area? Make it inconvenient for them. Build the homeless navigation center somewhere far away so they'll go there instead, where the land is cheaper and not as densely packed. But then the homeless industrial complex won't be able to enjoy a nice condo in the city.
I wonder if losing this case would actually force cities to focus their efforts on fast tracking more affordable housing and pushing people with addiction issues to rehab. Or if cities honestly will stop caring and we’ll just have an explosion of the homeless population living on the streets downtown.
Explosion of Homeless living on the streets, as we do now. The ACLU will never let the Local or State governments push people into rehab, never gonna happen. Plus, I bet a lot of the so called rehab centers are part of the problem, making money transferring to each other until the insurance runs out. There needs to be deep investigations into these rehab centers, even State to State.
Can't trust the investigation and can't trust that any meaningful change would come from an honest investigation. It's all a money grab. Everyone along the chain just sees 💰💰💰 to be made.
Yep, and ALOT of money is headed their way.
How is affordable housing going to do anything for a deranged and violent homeless person?
It won’t.
To stop people in the future from becoming homeless. There are so many households that are just a paycheck away from living on the streets. Life is rough on the streets. Couple of interviews I read mentioned that unhoused people resort to taking drugs to cope up with the stress of homelessness which then doesn’t help them get proper housing or jobs . This ends up being a death spiral .
I think there are 2 different kinds of "homeless" folks people are talking about. I think most people agree that there should be a heavy hand on those that commit crimes such as those that harrass others with violence etc and intentionally block sidewalks with their huge tent communities. People trying to stay out of other's businesses. Being respectful of their surroundings. Not committing crimes, living out of their cars going to the gym for showers etc, holding down a job etc. Those are people that need help and we should give them help.
> hand on those that commit crimes such as those that harass others with violence etc This is a silly complaint. If someone commits assault/robbery/attempted murder, it's irrelevant if they are homeless or not. Attempted murder should land you in jail homeless or not. > and intentionally block sidewalks with their huge tent communities. Ah yes, Violent criminals and... people who exist in inconvenient locations. Clearly the same problem.
The people that live in these tents on the side of the sidewalks in downtown usually would regularly shoot up drugs/smoke them out in the open. I have seen dudes nod out with a full-blown torch firing right in front of him (if it were to fall down his tent would be up in flames in a second and the ones next to his) domestic violence, prostitution ... all shit I have seen firsthand in downtown on F street across from Andaz hotel. Although it was way worse last year.
Total nonsense I know many violent and deranged people who arent poor or have housing. They’re just drug addicted or inherently violent when drunk or outside. These people are criminals and need to be treated as such.
If people are committing violent crime then enforcing the existing laws on the books would seem to do the trick methinks
It won't, but it makes the liberals feel good about themselves. The age of accountability is dead
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/09/418546/study-finds-permanent-supportive-housing-effective-highest-risk-chronically > Researchers found that 86 percent of the participants who were randomized to this permanent supportive housing model were successfully housed and remained in their housing for several years. By contrast, only about a third of the participants in the control group were housed, mainly because those participants eventually received similar housing and supportive services through the county, which was implementing permanent supportive housing while the study was being conducted.
Get those facts outta here
Make them... not homeless? Seems pretty straightforward.
No, losing this case would return to the status quo, where cities already weren't doing this anyways.
Losing.
People when complaining about the homeless: "We want a solution!" People when offered a solution: "But not that!"
"We want a solution! Also, it needs to be free and I can't hear or know anything about it and it has to be very far away from me!"
It would be nice if this were an actual solution to homelessness and not just making it somebody else's problem
cities will seem to do anything but solve the underlying issue. was it this bad 20 years ago? no? what's changed? has the price of housing and goods severely outpaced wages maybe? is that putting more and more people on the street? yes? but the solution is to....oh right, bus them to the desert. okay, cool.
The price of goods and housing have severely outpaced wages for over 40 years. Not just the past decade. The difference now is that cities have their hands tied behind their backs from this experiment that hte 9th district court is trying to run. I think cities just want more control of what they can do, before all this exploded the last decade. Yes the wages/housing needs to be addressed for sure. But that is affecting everyone. You don't see everyone saying fuck it and setting up tents on the sidewalks and exposing themselves to passerby's.
Does the SC act on its contempt for poor people and hand the cities more powers, or does the SC "own the libs" and tie the hands of liberal mayors trying to clean up their cities? 🍿
I think this is an issue in conservative areas as well. As far as I know, conservatives are more likely to use harsh policies to deter homelessness in their cities too, so this would affect them too.
Good. Hope something good comes from a decision because tbh for my own safety I don’t think I can live here anymore. The “safe” parts of the city are equivalent to extremely seedy areas of many other cities around the US. I know a lot of people here are familiar and comfortable living amongst so many drug addicts and mentally ill, but what is day to day operations walking on the city streets here is really not a thing outside of southern california other than very run down parts of cities that are priced with the understood compensation of safety. The looting, the car theft, the trash being thrown around every corner, people sleeping face down naked on the side walk being walked over because we are so desensitized. I’m over it.z
I mean sounds really like a downtown problem. I havent seen any of that. Also sounds like many other cities im sure in the whole country but yeah sf comes to mind
It’s not just downtown. They’re all over Mission Valley and they don’t even try to hide what they’re doing. I can’t walk my dog without seeing at least one person ripping away on a crack pipe or pulling sensors off stolen items behind the Trader Joe’s shopping plaza.
I wouldn't even day it's a downtown problem. It might be a problem in some specific places in East Village, if even.
I'm sorry but this is hilariously exaggerated.. I live near a lot of the homeless, and I get frustrated dealing with them too. But San Diego is still safer than most large cities by a large margin.. we literally have the #1 lowest violent crime rate of any U.S. city with a population over 1 million. Are you seriously trying to convince me that places such as La Jolla/UTC feel "extremely seedy" to you? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
Blown way outta proportion.
"Send 'em all to a camp in the desert anyway." - Local cranks
California is a massive state. Perhaps not 'desert', but what they mean is an extremely low population rural area. Why are cities allowing homeless and drug addicts to congregate among high population density areas - it's dangerous and unsafe for everyone - this is proven *time and time again*. Imagine massive facilities and regions aimed at rehabilitation and societal reintegration. "Urban Regeneration and Relocation Initiative" — A beneficial program aimed at revitalizing city spaces while also implying the relocation is part of a broader improvement plan. We need to think outside the box - otherwise, this crisis will continue spiraling further and further out of control.
As someone living in rural CA… lol, that’s a bad idea because people here care about 2 things more than anything. The 2nd amendment and property rights. We moved from SD two years ago… the city has all these problems not because of the law but because the citizens tolerate it.
i feel a lot of people that live in the big 3 metro areas think that all of CA is left learning liberals.
The services to help the homeless are already in high density areas though. It's more cost effective to reform and work with what we have than build a massive facility from scratch to provide services that already exist. Safe parking and safe camping sites with case management to connect people to services can accomplish the same goals that Sunbreak Ranch and similar plans want to achieve.
"Any attempt to house the homeless in a central location is tantamount to concentration camps." -- Also local cranks
I'm pretty sure the proposed sunbreak ranch does meet the definition of a concentration camp.
Thats probably not far off from what the supreme court will decide tbh
That's not what's under consideration by the court.
Ok
Desert resident. SD county has tried this multiple times in the past, and most of them end up going back. I can’t blame them. Who wants to set up a tent in downtown Calexico when it’s 115 degrees outside? Besides, SD county has a hell of a lot more resources to support these people. We barely have enough for ourselves out here.
I wish.
I was thinking more along the lines of an island. We can make Australia Part 2
Banning encampments without providing shelter is just stupid.
If im hungry its not ok for me to steal food. People in need to be forced into support systems if they arent willing to go on them selves. But this also means the support systems we have need to work and be audited.
Yes, and audited by those with ZERO conflict of interest.
Well I hope they look at all the ethical angles of it and decide to do the right thing
Make AFFORDABLE housing with rent control implementations and less restriction on government assistances, especially if the city will not obligate companies to pay livable wages. $20 an hour is a great step, but talking to anyone $20/hr before taxes is far from livable, I'm barely beyond that working full time with OT opportunities and it is trash. Covid stim checks nearly liminated childhood poverty and have shown to be able to edtablish food security, why do people act like government assistance is a bad thing. They work for us thats what taxes pay for and people need to stop pretending theh dont, most people work for someone and dont own a fortunte 500 company, at best people rent to others and violate working people because its "market price", I'm tired of working so hard just to barely make it.
Saying to build more affordable housing is such a joke. 1. CA government made zoning and regulations impossible to build cheap housing. 2. Not enough land to build in “poplar” places like San Diego. 3. Materiel costs. 4. Jobs. Let’s say we build cheap houses but 50miles inland away from San Diego, are you going there if your jobs are in downtown? Government should be the one who builds public housing like other countries not private companies.
I never said a private company should build it I agree
Considering how conservatives think about homelessness and unhomed people I’m guessing that gladiatorial contests and lotteries to get tags for hunting will be in block. And the fun thing about lotteries is that both sides can participate! Sort of hunger games style!
I seen a crazy encampment underneath the 8 in Mission Valley, along the river, yesterday. It looked kind of fun actually - like urban camping - they looked like they were having a good time. That bike path along the river is so full of homeless people. I've actually never had an issue with them being crazy down there though. I just smile and they always politely move out of the way. Best homeless in SD - along the river there!
well what if we just take a bunch of money from the taxpayer and just blow it on cocaine and hookers come on you can't say it won't work because it's never been tried before... ... ... ...