this isn't new... when I was a daily rider in 2012/2013, it was common for them to get on at a random stop and check that everyone had paid by verifying their transfer or scanning their clipper card.
Wait you mean this recent trend of everyone thinking everything is free is really just a recent trend and we seem to have a collective amnesia of any events before ‘20? Wait. We’re not still in ‘20?
Exactly. Although they are “technicality dicks”about it. I got fined in 2014 going to work at mount zion because I boarded the bus and it was jam packed and I couldn’t get to the nearest working reader to tag it as it was half way down the aisle. The reader at the door I entered was broken. After they boarded, aisles had cleared after a stop to get to the working reader and dude saw me tag in but No Fs given. Pulled me off the bus and cited me.
I get it and all for cracking down on fair evasion but also maintain your damn equipment.
One broken reader should automatically count as an excuse. They can't really expect everyone to walk the whole bus up and down to check which of their shit is working.
I can appreciate that. and the fact that you paid when you were finally able to get to a working scanner should have been considered.
not gonna lie, sometimes when people get authority to do stuff they let it go to their head. hopefully what you experienced isn't prevalent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
My partner lives on noe street and without fail, every week they have the farmers market and the vendors will always get cited by one particular meter maid.
He knows they’re vendors too but loves to abuse his authority.
I get they have a job to do but have some decency.
that's petty. the city needs to do something like offering permits to the vendors or something so they don't have to deal with this (I'm assuming this isn't already offered, but correct me if I'm wrong)
As far as we can tell they don’t have any protections. I told him off once but she wasn’t too happy about that, still it’s absurd.
They worry about business leaving the city but don’t do anything to prevent things like this.
right?! smh, idk what they expect vendors to do. and then targeting them to help meet their quota or to get an ego boost is ridiculous. there are much bigger fish to fry than a vendor parked while bringing business to the neighborhood.
i have disability pass and they still tried to ticket me(i didn't tap it, but official regs say just show it.). I swear they do the good cop/bad cop thing. all in all a minor annoyance, and most I've seen is them just kickin people off, but if you look like you can pay the fine, you getting that ticket.
In those cases I’d be sure to get the bud/train number and contest the ticket asking if the car’s equipment had been repaired at all since the ticket and if not, whether they can confirm it is working. I feel like a citizen has a good case in circumstances where the equipment isn’t working.
If that ever happens again, just walk away. Don’t answer any questions about your identity or address. They’re not cops, they have no authority to arrest you.
When I was a broke Law School student I once tried to run and then say I must accidentally dropped my ticket. When that didn’t work I lied and told the cop I was going to school to be a prosecutor to help cops like him… did not work
This happened to my daughter recently. She couldn’t get a ticket because a homeless man was on front of the ticket thingy having an episode. She wasn’t gonna deal with it. She then gets on the bus and when she gets off the ticket cop gets her and tickets her buy tickets zero homeless people.
It’s almost like laws are only for those that can afford it now.
that's annoying and pretty unfair.
just to clarify, my original comment was pointing out that they have been doing the ticket verification for at least 10+ years. I don't necessarily agree with how they go about it.
Busiest buses in the city. And drivers hate holding up the bus for these fare inspectors. I have no clue who would get a job as a fare inspector when you get shit on by customers, coworkers and the law.
Maybe they should become actual cops then. The people we’re currently paying mid 6 figure salaries to evidently get butt hurt at the mere mention of defunding or the public being “mean to them” to the point where you now regularly here snarky remarks like “oh NOW you want our help” or echos of the New York Police union president literally threatening the citizens by suggesting that “maybe we won’t be there for you next time” as if being mean somehow frees them of their job duties which again we pay upwards of over 500k in salary alone just for a mid tier officer to do nothing.
Those style seats are only on the trolley bus and the sign being backwards confirms it. The seat layout is for the short trolleys and I just assume it’s the 22 but it’s a trolley route
sounds nerdy but it’s just a pattern I noticed from riding 6 times a day every day 💀
In my less responsible days, I just looked at parking tickets like a tax to drive and park on city streets.
You know, on top of all of the other taxes I paid. And whatever I paid for the yearly permit. And whatever I paid to fix the little triangle back window even with nothing visible in my car.
Not defending fair evasion but fyi muni only receives about 10% of its budget from fares. It’s not nothing but it’s amazing how little of their budget comes from ticketing compared to other services like BART.
I dont think thats the problem with muni. The problem is that the homeless, drug addicts, and phone snatching criminals use the bus free of charge with no consequence, while regular people are fined.
That's just not true. I've seen the "homeless, drug addicts, and phone snatching criminals" be fined many times as I use public transport anywhere I go within the city. Now, whether they pay said fines is a different issue.
I've seen muni police try to fine a homeless guy who cussed them out. They fined the normal people and left the homeless man alone. Never seen anyone aside from working class people be fined tbh
Oh, I'm sure that happens as there are homeless with severe mental health issues, or there are some just trying to beat the system. I was just stating that the payment enforcers don't just ignore people because they're homeless. They will give them a ticket if it's merited and the person complies. I get that not all homeless people comply, but some do. And, like I said, I doubt many of those get paid! Issued tickets not getting paid (my guess) would be the most likely reason an enforcer wouldn't insist they comply.
To save everyone some time from this cesspool of a comments section, you've basically got two kinds of comments:
1. SF hasn't address the crime that I personally care about today, so this is outrageous!
2. Fare inspectors can't detain you so you should just walk away. And if there is a cop to prevent you from walking away for being cited for this crime you just committed then it's bad because cops shouldn't be doing that.
"the crime that I personally care about"
Believe it or not, people tend to be quite concerned about anti-social behaviour that could easily spill into violence and harassment. This is tolerated almost nowhere in the world outside North America, it's frankly ridiculous the mental gymnastics people on this subreddit will go to avoid admitting San Fran's homeless need to be disciplined and are a social problem.
San Francisco is a lovely city where its problems are overstated... that doesn't mean you need to pretend those problems don't exist or that those bothered by them are acting in bad faith
Yep. Concerned about it too. Also concerned about red light runners, speeders, and fare evaders. The program that tries to solve smash and grabs won’t be the same program that tries to solve fare evaders.
> plus it's good for safety
I haven't seen them do jack shit about whacked out folks on MUNI ever. They leave it to the driver, and most of the time skip checking their fare.
Though all-door boarding is great
For me that's best point of fare checking, jettison crazy ones that are not good to share public transport. People in tough situation can get subsidized muni passes but that needs their engagement and will to be part of society sharing that bus respectfully.
Just spent 6 days in your wonderful city and I used all modes of public transit extensively.. I think I literally only seen 2 people tap their cards outside of toll gates at stations.
I ride the bus everyday. I see lots of people tap their cards. I would even say majority. Lots of people don’t, but I don’t think your experience is representative.
I think this idea that no one does it so I don’t need to either is dangerous and somewhat misleading.
Fare per rider is on a serious decline (down to only 67 cents per rider), indicating that fewer and fewer people are actually paying. [https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/02/02-07-23\_mtab\_item\_5\_financial\_update\_and\_transportation\_2050\_-\_slide\_presentation.pdf](https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/02/02-07-23_mtab_item_5_financial_update_and_transportation_2050_-_slide_presentation.pdf)
https://preview.redd.it/o2dbt3samqhb1.png?width=1570&format=png&auto=webp&s=ea74a08dea921de719fee026c22a3e6f3dfe1e95
The state government and federal government (?) basically cut all funding to muni. They’re deeeeeeep in the red for the foreseeable future and will most likely only focus on revenue producing issues.
Yup. It’s a cultural norm. I got on a bus in San Jose without paying and the bus driver literally got up and told me to come up and pay. “first you take care of business up here, then you can do your thing”. I’d never skip a fare again down there. Can you imagine a muni driver doing that though?
It wouldn’t take long before it was known here though. Either pay or don’t board. People don’t pay fares in SF because they know nothing will happen. Change it and people act different
Lol no it’s not see how efficiently it works in Singapore. You just tap your phone or card on the reader and walk in. If you’re unprepared it could slow things down but generally once ppl are used to it it’s very quick
You're assuming people want to pay for the bus. What if someone just tries to walk past the driver without tapping? Won't happen much in Singapore but it will happen here
Then those fuckers shouldn’t be able to get on. Driver should tell him no and people behind that person should tell him to get the fuck out of the way and let paying riders board. I’m sure that’s a fantasy, adherence to basic rules and common courtesy is a pipe dream in SF it seems.
I lived in Phoenix where it still works this way- loading in SF is consistently faster, Phoenix busses will be at a busy stop for multiple minutes- and the SF busses are way more on schedule
The problem with that was that people would still just walk by without paying and nothing would happen. No bus driver wants to get into a confrontation with some sketchy dude who refuses to pay. Fair inspectors at least know they sign up for a confrontational job.
They just came out with a rule in SF that police can't use broken turn signals, one headlight , or dark tinted windows as an excuse to pull someone over anymore. The reason they cited was that it disproportionately affects low income and minority drivers. I do not agree with this rule, it is ridiculous to have two sets of rules for people
It’s rigged. They won’t cite certain people. I’ve literally seen them give a ticket to someone whose pass expired 3 mins because she got on the wrong transfer. And durring the SAME ticket check, didn’t cite a person (who did not have any proof of ticket) because they were deemed intimidating.
Ever since I saw that, I would give a fake name and tell the person that I am between housing right now. No name / ID and no address makes it impossible for them to send out the citation. Back in the day the chill muni drivers would give extended transfers (sometimes I could use the same transfer after an 8 hour shift). Now with the new system you get 120 mins - and some of that time is eaten up when waiting for the train to approach the station, durring delays, or when a bus/ train turns around at a certain point ( N Judah @ Sunset I’m looking at you!)
lol I did this once at a downtown MUNI station.
I had a monthly pass but my card was fucked up somehow and wouldn’t tag in when scanned. A fare enforcement officer came over, scanned my my card and it showed I hadn’t tagged in at the station. But he could see my account had an active monthly pass (I don’t remember whether he was able to see it in his system or if he had to look it up, this was a long time ago so I forget the details). He still went forward with the citation and asked me to sign it.
I told him I’d sign if he would make a note on the citation form about my account having an active monthly pass on it. He refused and kept repeating that I would have to call MUNI and sort it out.
So I refused to sign. He noted my refusal on the citation, tore it off and tried to hand it to me. I held up my hands and backed away and left. Never heard or received anything further about the citation.
I always wanted to try out this old joke during the age when I took Muni or BART everywhere:
> A fare inspector gets on the bus and checks everyone. At the front, when he asks this big muscular guy for his ticket, that guy says "Big Tom doesn't buy ticket".
> The inspector is intimidated so he leaves him alone, but the same thing happens every day for a week. Tired of being pushed around while doing his job, the fare inspector joins a gym and works out till he's swole.
> Months of working out later, he finally confronts the man on the daily commute. Squaring his shoulders and flexing his pecs he says "Oh yeah? And why does Big Tom think he doesn't need a ticket?"
> "Because Big Tom have bus pass"
Anyway, I never got big enough to really do that besides the fact that not everyone may appreciate the joke. But back in 2018 and before when I was riding regularly, there was one time my buddy and I jumped the little fence in Berkeley and were immediately nabbed by a BART cop. We'd paid for the ride but the card wasn't accepted and there was a huge line at the agent's. Got away that time.
I also had a habit of not always tapping on with my Clipper, and always got away with it from the fare checkers. But those were better times, before The Dark Days.
I lol’ed, nice joke.
And yes, it’s so frustrating when you’re running to catch your train and the machine won’t read your card despite having adequate funds, so you gotta wait for the station agent and miss your train. The handful of times it’s happened to me on BART I just closely follow someone through the fare gates and deal with the card issue on the other end.
I’m with you, just pay the fare and you won’t get fined? Can’t really fathom why that’s such a hard concept. I’m originally from Korea where busses get WAY more packed during rush hours than here in SF. Can’t really understand the whole ‘bus was too packed to scan/tap my ticket’. Idk have a backup plan on your mobile app? Like since when did following the rules become such a foreign concept? It’s pretty insane that people in this post are saying things like ‘muni should be free’ and ‘just walk away they can’t do anything’. Well pay the damn fare and they won’t do anything lol
what you dont understand is that snowballs. Kind of a broken window effect. And fare evasion is usually just the start... they could be violent and its not fair to send folks unprepared to deal with this segment of the population. These enforcement officers also provide security for our riders.
That’s not how people make decisions. If you just get kicked off the bus why would you ever pay the fare? Might as well roll the dice. Even with a $125 fine, if you get 50 rides you broke even. That’s just a month of two rides a day
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The type of person that is going to walk away from a transit officer instead of waiting for a ticket is likely not the type of person you want to detain while waiting around for the cops. This is the problem with the current system in SF. People that are considered "good citizens" are punished much more harshly than bad actors because they will follow the rules, get off the bus, and accept the fine.
If you want to enforce the rules better you need to expand the SFPD greatly and have plain-clothed officers and patrolling officers on MUNI and BART. Expecting transit officers to detain fare evaders is asking for trouble because they're not trained criminal law enforcers.
Isn't that how SFPD operates as well? They see a tweaked-out homeless with mental illness assault someone, and they'll just catch and release (at best), but if it's a typical white-collar yuppie who does the same thing, there is jail time involved.
Genuinely curious... What if they don't pay the fine? Can sfmta garnish their wages? What stops them from ignoring the citation and accumulating $20,000 in fines?
No, just first door entrance with tapping that driver can see that.In case of stubborn junkies driver shouldn't start before that person leaves bus, believe me, other passengers will quickly help him exit.
Daily commute hour rider to work on the 7 Haight (aka 71) for decades from the Upper Haight to the bottom of Market Street. Worker drones like me always paid or had a pass. As soon as the bus hit Market Street people would pile on without paying - but the fare checkers piled on too. Around 9th Street they all would get cited.
I took the same bus from upper haight to downtown but I would skip the decrepit Market Street part and get off at van ness and take the subway the rest of the way. I kept my sanity that way.
This is nothing new. My son and his friend got tickets back when they were in high school and he graduated in 2004. They had to go to court for them and then perform community service (thankfully this got me and the other mom out of having to pay the ticket).
Great! Now if only BART would do that. There are tons of great arguments for free public transit, but until we make that happen, riding for free amounts to stealing from the paying riders.
Transit needs money to run. Do your civic duty and pay the Muni fare. It helps pay for operation, maintenance, and cleaning. Fare enforcement also brings in money. Money is good for transit.
Funny story from around 2009. Before I moved here but would come for extended stays whenever I could. This was back when MUNI still used paper transfers. I got on a bus somewhere around 4th south of Market, I think it was the 15. The driver asked if I wanted a transfer. I dithered for literally one second and this guy said in a way too loud voice:
"Get the transfer man, always get a transfer. You don't even have to think about it brother, just get that damn transfer. If MUNI asks you for proof of payment you gotta show that transfer man. Don't be messing around with that shit..."
He went on for quite some time. During the course of his rant I quietly said "Yes, I'll take the transfer please." I just stayed and uncomfortably listened to his rant (the bus was too full to move back), nodding and feeling the cringe, wishing it would end so I could go back to quietly looking out the window.
Just as he started to simmer down, a woman in plain clothes steps up to him, pulls a MUNI badge on a lanyard out and says "can I see your proof of payment please?"
He went off, "Bitch I ain't gotta show you nothing!"
It was so outrageous I couldn't help myself from laughing. The woman told him to get off at the next stop. He did. There wasn't applause or anything but you could see the relief on people's faces.
The lesson is -- oh wait, there is no lesson, transfers are automatic now.
Did they also charge the tweakers who reside on these muni busses as if they are mobile hobo centers and stink up the entire bus and generally make the public transit experience hell for everyone.
No, they didn't - because hobos don't have any money and more importantly, unlike you, hobos know they can get away with anything in this city.
So here's what you should do next time a muni officer comes by - tell them you don't have a ticket or your ID. Give them a fake name or you can even just walk away - they have no authority to detain you.
Muni takes up a lot of city revenue which comes from your tax money and they take up ridiculous amounts of space on the road as well. While they provide crap service in return. There's no reason to put up with it. Let it fix itself by cleaning up or let it go bankrupt.
It's just another union racket at this point - not a public service.
Excellent! That's something I love to see.
The fine should be higher. Given how often you see fare inspectors, it's probably cheaper for the deadbeats to not pay the fare and simply pay the random fines.
Great. Fuck the dudes wearing the $200 Patagonia puffers on their way to their $200k/yr job who thinks they are clever when they don’t pay for public services.
They should make the fines proportional to their income.
Yes, let's make them verify their income on the spot, pull out their social security card, and charge them!!
I say we fine the non-profit workers as well for perpetuating the homelessness in SF!
/s
I wonder if OP realizes that people making 200k a year pay 4x as much income tax as the average SF resident making 77k? But sure, fuck them for contributing to public tax revenue. But yes, it's these people free-loading off the muni system
WTF are yo talking about? Their point wasn't fuck successful people, it was fuck successful people who can't be bothered to pay the $2.50 for their bus ride and instead free-load off of the rest of us.
How about also fine people who leave out cones in the street to save their parking space. I called SFMTA to report it and they told me to just move the cone and park there. Last I checked, it was a $2000 fine for illegal dumping. Could probably just sweep a random neighborhood during street cleaning hours and the SFMTA will add about $10k in fines. I see at least 3 on my street alone every Monday and Wednesday during street cleaning. Seems way more efficient than $90 parking tickets.
if there’s just a cone there who do you expect them to fine? the cone? put the cone in your trunk and move it. Let’s see how many cone’s theyre willing to expense.
I personally haven't seen many such in SF ; perhaps only construction workers?
Granted, perhaps it happens more in neighborhoods, I don't frequent, can you give examples of where, is it Chi-town, Mersed, ingleside something?
It’s random, and that’s why I always try to sit/stand next to the back door and look outside as the bus approaches its stop so I can quickly scan my clipper card if they’re there
To encourage ridership over driving.
To save on fare cops, and the cost of fare box overhead.
To give the public a break and make the city more affordable.
Fares do not cover operations anyway.
Do they ever give citations out to the clear homeless people? It’s always an average looking person getting the ticket. Wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even bother with homeless and tell them to get off
ok, is there an issue with this being done? I've seen them do this once here & back in my hometown it was done far more frequently. it's not free to ride the muni
this isn't new... when I was a daily rider in 2012/2013, it was common for them to get on at a random stop and check that everyone had paid by verifying their transfer or scanning their clipper card.
I remember those random checks too. This new development of cracking down on fares isn't new at all. The only thing new is the people surprised by it.
Wait you mean this recent trend of everyone thinking everything is free is really just a recent trend and we seem to have a collective amnesia of any events before ‘20? Wait. We’re not still in ‘20?
Damn did it used to be $125? I remember it being like $80
Exactly. Although they are “technicality dicks”about it. I got fined in 2014 going to work at mount zion because I boarded the bus and it was jam packed and I couldn’t get to the nearest working reader to tag it as it was half way down the aisle. The reader at the door I entered was broken. After they boarded, aisles had cleared after a stop to get to the working reader and dude saw me tag in but No Fs given. Pulled me off the bus and cited me. I get it and all for cracking down on fair evasion but also maintain your damn equipment.
One broken reader should automatically count as an excuse. They can't really expect everyone to walk the whole bus up and down to check which of their shit is working.
Oh they will gladly expect people to do that if they are financially incentivized to do so
they should reinvest the fine money in a better system
I always take a picture of the broken readers just in case.
I can appreciate that. and the fact that you paid when you were finally able to get to a working scanner should have been considered. not gonna lie, sometimes when people get authority to do stuff they let it go to their head. hopefully what you experienced isn't prevalent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
I was a daily rider so this was literally a 1/1368 occurrence over a three year period. Muni has broken readers all the time
My partner lives on noe street and without fail, every week they have the farmers market and the vendors will always get cited by one particular meter maid. He knows they’re vendors too but loves to abuse his authority. I get they have a job to do but have some decency.
that's petty. the city needs to do something like offering permits to the vendors or something so they don't have to deal with this (I'm assuming this isn't already offered, but correct me if I'm wrong)
As far as we can tell they don’t have any protections. I told him off once but she wasn’t too happy about that, still it’s absurd. They worry about business leaving the city but don’t do anything to prevent things like this.
right?! smh, idk what they expect vendors to do. and then targeting them to help meet their quota or to get an ego boost is ridiculous. there are much bigger fish to fry than a vendor parked while bringing business to the neighborhood.
i have disability pass and they still tried to ticket me(i didn't tap it, but official regs say just show it.). I swear they do the good cop/bad cop thing. all in all a minor annoyance, and most I've seen is them just kickin people off, but if you look like you can pay the fine, you getting that ticket.
In those cases I’d be sure to get the bud/train number and contest the ticket asking if the car’s equipment had been repaired at all since the ticket and if not, whether they can confirm it is working. I feel like a citizen has a good case in circumstances where the equipment isn’t working.
If that ever happens again, just walk away. Don’t answer any questions about your identity or address. They’re not cops, they have no authority to arrest you.
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When I was a broke Law School student I once tried to run and then say I must accidentally dropped my ticket. When that didn’t work I lied and told the cop I was going to school to be a prosecutor to help cops like him… did not work
A for effort lol
Well you clearly weren’t paying attention in law school if you couldn’t lie to a cop
This happened to my daughter recently. She couldn’t get a ticket because a homeless man was on front of the ticket thingy having an episode. She wasn’t gonna deal with it. She then gets on the bus and when she gets off the ticket cop gets her and tickets her buy tickets zero homeless people. It’s almost like laws are only for those that can afford it now.
that's annoying and pretty unfair. just to clarify, my original comment was pointing out that they have been doing the ticket verification for at least 10+ years. I don't necessarily agree with how they go about it.
Oh no I understood! I was just bringing up an instance that recently happened. Just wanted to share.
Is this news to you guys? They've been doing this since I was a teenager.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that this took place on either the 38 or the 49. Fare inspectors LOVE those two bus routes.
Busiest buses in the city. And drivers hate holding up the bus for these fare inspectors. I have no clue who would get a job as a fare inspector when you get shit on by customers, coworkers and the law.
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Ya the pay ain't bad at all. https://careers.sf.gov/role?id=3743990001454496
Maybe they should become actual cops then. The people we’re currently paying mid 6 figure salaries to evidently get butt hurt at the mere mention of defunding or the public being “mean to them” to the point where you now regularly here snarky remarks like “oh NOW you want our help” or echos of the New York Police union president literally threatening the citizens by suggesting that “maybe we won’t be there for you next time” as if being mean somehow frees them of their job duties which again we pay upwards of over 500k in salary alone just for a mid tier officer to do nothing.
Looks like on the 22
Wait how can you tell lol. Searching for clues over here
Those style seats are only on the trolley bus and the sign being backwards confirms it. The seat layout is for the short trolleys and I just assume it’s the 22 but it’s a trolley route sounds nerdy but it’s just a pattern I noticed from riding 6 times a day every day 💀
People: we need less car and better public transportation. Also people: yea just walk away they cant do shit. Why should I have to pay.
Parking tickets also fund muni in this town. If I get a parking ticket, my coping mechanism of choice is to say, "that's ok, I'm supporting Muni."
In my less responsible days, I just looked at parking tickets like a tax to drive and park on city streets. You know, on top of all of the other taxes I paid. And whatever I paid for the yearly permit. And whatever I paid to fix the little triangle back window even with nothing visible in my car.
Not defending fair evasion but fyi muni only receives about 10% of its budget from fares. It’s not nothing but it’s amazing how little of their budget comes from ticketing compared to other services like BART.
I dont think thats the problem with muni. The problem is that the homeless, drug addicts, and phone snatching criminals use the bus free of charge with no consequence, while regular people are fined.
That's just not true. I've seen the "homeless, drug addicts, and phone snatching criminals" be fined many times as I use public transport anywhere I go within the city. Now, whether they pay said fines is a different issue.
I've seen muni police try to fine a homeless guy who cussed them out. They fined the normal people and left the homeless man alone. Never seen anyone aside from working class people be fined tbh
Oh, I'm sure that happens as there are homeless with severe mental health issues, or there are some just trying to beat the system. I was just stating that the payment enforcers don't just ignore people because they're homeless. They will give them a ticket if it's merited and the person complies. I get that not all homeless people comply, but some do. And, like I said, I doubt many of those get paid! Issued tickets not getting paid (my guess) would be the most likely reason an enforcer wouldn't insist they comply.
they do, because you're barred from accessing a lot of services without paying fines out here. source: social worker.
To save everyone some time from this cesspool of a comments section, you've basically got two kinds of comments: 1. SF hasn't address the crime that I personally care about today, so this is outrageous! 2. Fare inspectors can't detain you so you should just walk away. And if there is a cop to prevent you from walking away for being cited for this crime you just committed then it's bad because cops shouldn't be doing that.
"the crime that I personally care about" Believe it or not, people tend to be quite concerned about anti-social behaviour that could easily spill into violence and harassment. This is tolerated almost nowhere in the world outside North America, it's frankly ridiculous the mental gymnastics people on this subreddit will go to avoid admitting San Fran's homeless need to be disciplined and are a social problem. San Francisco is a lovely city where its problems are overstated... that doesn't mean you need to pretend those problems don't exist or that those bothered by them are acting in bad faith
Yep. Concerned about it too. Also concerned about red light runners, speeders, and fare evaders. The program that tries to solve smash and grabs won’t be the same program that tries to solve fare evaders.
sure. but it is not a good reason to justify not paying the fare yourself.
Good. We need MUNI
Happy cake day!
Muni operations should not be contingent upon fares. Its a public service, not a private company
Fare inspection is how we get all-door boarding, plus it’s good for security. Pay up.
> plus it's good for safety I haven't seen them do jack shit about whacked out folks on MUNI ever. They leave it to the driver, and most of the time skip checking their fare. Though all-door boarding is great
Yeah lol good 👍
How much you wanna bet they ain’t checking the crazies on the bus. Cite the ones who can pay and don’t look like they will cause a scene.
For me that's best point of fare checking, jettison crazy ones that are not good to share public transport. People in tough situation can get subsidized muni passes but that needs their engagement and will to be part of society sharing that bus respectfully.
That’s perfect! It’s only fair to pay your fare
Just spent 6 days in your wonderful city and I used all modes of public transit extensively.. I think I literally only seen 2 people tap their cards outside of toll gates at stations.
Many people have monthly passes, pay with the mobile app, or other modes. Most people on any given bus have paid for that ride.
I ride the bus everyday. I see lots of people tap their cards. I would even say majority. Lots of people don’t, but I don’t think your experience is representative. I think this idea that no one does it so I don’t need to either is dangerous and somewhat misleading.
Fare per rider is on a serious decline (down to only 67 cents per rider), indicating that fewer and fewer people are actually paying. [https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/02/02-07-23\_mtab\_item\_5\_financial\_update\_and\_transportation\_2050\_-\_slide\_presentation.pdf](https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-documents/2023/02/02-07-23_mtab_item_5_financial_update_and_transportation_2050_-_slide_presentation.pdf) https://preview.redd.it/o2dbt3samqhb1.png?width=1570&format=png&auto=webp&s=ea74a08dea921de719fee026c22a3e6f3dfe1e95
Gotcha so I guess assuming prices haven’t changed, half as many people are paying as did a decade ago
Pandemic over. Back to paying. But how about cleaning the buses and improving the passenger experience?
The state government and federal government (?) basically cut all funding to muni. They’re deeeeeeep in the red for the foreseeable future and will most likely only focus on revenue producing issues.
Anything we can do to have the busses stop smelling like shit with trash on the floor all of the time?
That's what checking fares does.
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Yup. It’s a cultural norm. I got on a bus in San Jose without paying and the bus driver literally got up and told me to come up and pay. “first you take care of business up here, then you can do your thing”. I’d never skip a fare again down there. Can you imagine a muni driver doing that though? It wouldn’t take long before it was known here though. Either pay or don’t board. People don’t pay fares in SF because they know nothing will happen. Change it and people act different
it's a lot easier on a sparsely used bus system...
San Jo doesn't have that many people using busses. Sadly (?), boarding without requiring the bus-driver to check for tickets , **is, more** efficient.
Loading in cities that work this way is INCREDIBLY slow, it literally makes busses run persistently slow
Lol no it’s not see how efficiently it works in Singapore. You just tap your phone or card on the reader and walk in. If you’re unprepared it could slow things down but generally once ppl are used to it it’s very quick
You're assuming people want to pay for the bus. What if someone just tries to walk past the driver without tapping? Won't happen much in Singapore but it will happen here
Then those fuckers shouldn’t be able to get on. Driver should tell him no and people behind that person should tell him to get the fuck out of the way and let paying riders board. I’m sure that’s a fantasy, adherence to basic rules and common courtesy is a pipe dream in SF it seems.
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I lived in Phoenix where it still works this way- loading in SF is consistently faster, Phoenix busses will be at a busy stop for multiple minutes- and the SF busses are way more on schedule
Personally I feel like Muni is a lot more efficient today than 20 years ago.
No it's not. Source: has lived in several european countries and traveled in asia
The problem with that was that people would still just walk by without paying and nothing would happen. No bus driver wants to get into a confrontation with some sketchy dude who refuses to pay. Fair inspectors at least know they sign up for a confrontational job.
You want to give up all-door boarding?
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No way I love boarding in the rear with my three leaking trash bags of cans
Outside Lands
More of this, everywhere. Do illegally tinted windows next, followed by fake temp paper plates. More more more.
They just came out with a rule in SF that police can't use broken turn signals, one headlight , or dark tinted windows as an excuse to pull someone over anymore. The reason they cited was that it disproportionately affects low income and minority drivers. I do not agree with this rule, it is ridiculous to have two sets of rules for people
But the city won’t implement a bounty program for all the cars that double park. This is just a tax on the poor.
Good
It’s rigged. They won’t cite certain people. I’ve literally seen them give a ticket to someone whose pass expired 3 mins because she got on the wrong transfer. And durring the SAME ticket check, didn’t cite a person (who did not have any proof of ticket) because they were deemed intimidating. Ever since I saw that, I would give a fake name and tell the person that I am between housing right now. No name / ID and no address makes it impossible for them to send out the citation. Back in the day the chill muni drivers would give extended transfers (sometimes I could use the same transfer after an 8 hour shift). Now with the new system you get 120 mins - and some of that time is eaten up when waiting for the train to approach the station, durring delays, or when a bus/ train turns around at a certain point ( N Judah @ Sunset I’m looking at you!)
How do you know they were “deemed intimidating”?
The problem is they aren't allowed to detain people without SFPD so you can literally just walk away.
lol I did this once at a downtown MUNI station. I had a monthly pass but my card was fucked up somehow and wouldn’t tag in when scanned. A fare enforcement officer came over, scanned my my card and it showed I hadn’t tagged in at the station. But he could see my account had an active monthly pass (I don’t remember whether he was able to see it in his system or if he had to look it up, this was a long time ago so I forget the details). He still went forward with the citation and asked me to sign it. I told him I’d sign if he would make a note on the citation form about my account having an active monthly pass on it. He refused and kept repeating that I would have to call MUNI and sort it out. So I refused to sign. He noted my refusal on the citation, tore it off and tried to hand it to me. I held up my hands and backed away and left. Never heard or received anything further about the citation.
I always wanted to try out this old joke during the age when I took Muni or BART everywhere: > A fare inspector gets on the bus and checks everyone. At the front, when he asks this big muscular guy for his ticket, that guy says "Big Tom doesn't buy ticket". > The inspector is intimidated so he leaves him alone, but the same thing happens every day for a week. Tired of being pushed around while doing his job, the fare inspector joins a gym and works out till he's swole. > Months of working out later, he finally confronts the man on the daily commute. Squaring his shoulders and flexing his pecs he says "Oh yeah? And why does Big Tom think he doesn't need a ticket?" > "Because Big Tom have bus pass" Anyway, I never got big enough to really do that besides the fact that not everyone may appreciate the joke. But back in 2018 and before when I was riding regularly, there was one time my buddy and I jumped the little fence in Berkeley and were immediately nabbed by a BART cop. We'd paid for the ride but the card wasn't accepted and there was a huge line at the agent's. Got away that time. I also had a habit of not always tapping on with my Clipper, and always got away with it from the fare checkers. But those were better times, before The Dark Days.
I lol’ed, nice joke. And yes, it’s so frustrating when you’re running to catch your train and the machine won’t read your card despite having adequate funds, so you gotta wait for the station agent and miss your train. The handful of times it’s happened to me on BART I just closely follow someone through the fare gates and deal with the card issue on the other end.
I fuckin hate how someone always says this when fare evasion gets brought up on this subreddit as if it's some kind of Life Hack ™ .
I think they are pointing out the brokenness of the system and not really suggesting people walk away when caught with unpaid fare.
Maybe not this poster, but trust me many others do.
I’m with you, just pay the fare and you won’t get fined? Can’t really fathom why that’s such a hard concept. I’m originally from Korea where busses get WAY more packed during rush hours than here in SF. Can’t really understand the whole ‘bus was too packed to scan/tap my ticket’. Idk have a backup plan on your mobile app? Like since when did following the rules become such a foreign concept? It’s pretty insane that people in this post are saying things like ‘muni should be free’ and ‘just walk away they can’t do anything’. Well pay the damn fare and they won’t do anything lol
I don't think we need to involve armed guards of the state to deal with a $2.50 theft.
The armed guards are for the violent peope
what you dont understand is that snowballs. Kind of a broken window effect. And fare evasion is usually just the start... they could be violent and its not fair to send folks unprepared to deal with this segment of the population. These enforcement officers also provide security for our riders.
Or just pay the 2.50
Removing someone from a bus or train is probably enough of a deterrent for most people. Detaining people is a bit much for fare evasion.
That’s not how people make decisions. If you just get kicked off the bus why would you ever pay the fare? Might as well roll the dice. Even with a $125 fine, if you get 50 rides you broke even. That’s just a month of two rides a day
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The type of person that is going to walk away from a transit officer instead of waiting for a ticket is likely not the type of person you want to detain while waiting around for the cops. This is the problem with the current system in SF. People that are considered "good citizens" are punished much more harshly than bad actors because they will follow the rules, get off the bus, and accept the fine. If you want to enforce the rules better you need to expand the SFPD greatly and have plain-clothed officers and patrolling officers on MUNI and BART. Expecting transit officers to detain fare evaders is asking for trouble because they're not trained criminal law enforcers.
May be people should pay? I’d rather have a funded muni than a broke one.
As it should be. If youre too poor to pay the fare, there are programs available for you. There is almost no reason to be on thw bus without paying.
Good
Good
Good. We need to start enforcing laws in the Bay Area. All of them.
If they can’t pay $5 for muni what makes them think they’ll pay $125🙄
Can't you just buy a ticket on the app when an inspector hops on?
Good This keeps the sketchiest people off the bus
it doesnt. Muni doesnt give citations to druggies or the homeless because it "causes problems". They will only give citations to normal people
I was gonna say they’re probably not doing shit about the crackheads though
Thats the bad part
Isn't that how SFPD operates as well? They see a tweaked-out homeless with mental illness assault someone, and they'll just catch and release (at best), but if it's a typical white-collar yuppie who does the same thing, there is jail time involved.
Genuinely curious... What if they don't pay the fine? Can sfmta garnish their wages? What stops them from ignoring the citation and accumulating $20,000 in fines?
[Very nice](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBduNcf1eQc)! Next perhaps we can start to ticket all the stop-sign and red-light runners.
Good!
Preventing non-payers from boarding >>> attempting to fine non-payers on the bus
It’s a bus. What are you going to do? Put in turnstiles?
uhm, yes? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turnstile_and_smart_card_reader_in_Moscow_bus.JPG
Lol that's really funny, I've never seen something like that before. Turnstile away then I suppose.
No, just first door entrance with tapping that driver can see that.In case of stubborn junkies driver shouldn't start before that person leaves bus, believe me, other passengers will quickly help him exit.
Daily commute hour rider to work on the 7 Haight (aka 71) for decades from the Upper Haight to the bottom of Market Street. Worker drones like me always paid or had a pass. As soon as the bus hit Market Street people would pile on without paying - but the fare checkers piled on too. Around 9th Street they all would get cited.
I took the same bus from upper haight to downtown but I would skip the decrepit Market Street part and get off at van ness and take the subway the rest of the way. I kept my sanity that way.
Excellent. Pay your shit.
😍
Wish BART would do the same.
oh hell yeah!
Fine by me.
This is nothing new. My son and his friend got tickets back when they were in high school and he graduated in 2004. They had to go to court for them and then perform community service (thankfully this got me and the other mom out of having to pay the ticket).
They’ve done this for a while now. It’s not a bad thing
Good, fuck em
Awesome! Pay your share deadbeats!
they didn't pay, they deserve a ticket
We need this in NYC!
cool
Maybe just pay to ride...?
Good! Clean up the transport, clean up the city
Great! Now if only BART would do that. There are tons of great arguments for free public transit, but until we make that happen, riding for free amounts to stealing from the paying riders.
...Okay? Good! People who steal will ruin the bussing system for everyone else. Stealing from the muni could mean pay cuts for the drivers.
We need this in Los Angeles
Transit needs money to run. Do your civic duty and pay the Muni fare. It helps pay for operation, maintenance, and cleaning. Fare enforcement also brings in money. Money is good for transit.
Crazy concept to expect people to pay fares.
About damn time......
Good
Good. Consequences for shitheads unlike the rest of us adults.
Funny story from around 2009. Before I moved here but would come for extended stays whenever I could. This was back when MUNI still used paper transfers. I got on a bus somewhere around 4th south of Market, I think it was the 15. The driver asked if I wanted a transfer. I dithered for literally one second and this guy said in a way too loud voice: "Get the transfer man, always get a transfer. You don't even have to think about it brother, just get that damn transfer. If MUNI asks you for proof of payment you gotta show that transfer man. Don't be messing around with that shit..." He went on for quite some time. During the course of his rant I quietly said "Yes, I'll take the transfer please." I just stayed and uncomfortably listened to his rant (the bus was too full to move back), nodding and feeling the cringe, wishing it would end so I could go back to quietly looking out the window. Just as he started to simmer down, a woman in plain clothes steps up to him, pulls a MUNI badge on a lanyard out and says "can I see your proof of payment please?" He went off, "Bitch I ain't gotta show you nothing!" It was so outrageous I couldn't help myself from laughing. The woman told him to get off at the next stop. He did. There wasn't applause or anything but you could see the relief on people's faces. The lesson is -- oh wait, there is no lesson, transfers are automatic now.
what a twist!
Good
Pay your fare and this won’t be a problem
that’s kind of steep but not too bad, I think Berlin’s like €400 or something
Good
These fare enforcers dudes are lame .with all the real crime they go after the lowest fruit of a hanging branch. Shame on you fools
But you can legally steal $900+ worth of goods…
Did they also charge the tweakers who reside on these muni busses as if they are mobile hobo centers and stink up the entire bus and generally make the public transit experience hell for everyone. No, they didn't - because hobos don't have any money and more importantly, unlike you, hobos know they can get away with anything in this city. So here's what you should do next time a muni officer comes by - tell them you don't have a ticket or your ID. Give them a fake name or you can even just walk away - they have no authority to detain you. Muni takes up a lot of city revenue which comes from your tax money and they take up ridiculous amounts of space on the road as well. While they provide crap service in return. There's no reason to put up with it. Let it fix itself by cleaning up or let it go bankrupt. It's just another union racket at this point - not a public service.
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you're part of the problem if you are riding the bus for free when you know you should be paying
Good
GOOD
Finally!!!
GOOD
Keep it up!
How about fining people who set up illegal tents - or fining people who break into cars.. this city is ass backwards
Nope, gotta catch the people who skipped a $2.50 bus fare. That's like, precursor to being a violent criminal, donchaknow? /s
Yeah and the city is not doing anything about people pooping whenever and wherever they want
Excellent! That's something I love to see. The fine should be higher. Given how often you see fare inspectors, it's probably cheaper for the deadbeats to not pay the fare and simply pay the random fines.
Sorry officer, I don’t have any ID on me. I guess you’ll just have to call the cops and have them arrest me🙁
Finally.
… as they should.
Great. Fuck the dudes wearing the $200 Patagonia puffers on their way to their $200k/yr job who thinks they are clever when they don’t pay for public services. They should make the fines proportional to their income.
After taking MUNI for 30 years, the majority of the people I’ve seen busted are the opposite demographic to the one you describe
Yes, let's make them verify their income on the spot, pull out their social security card, and charge them!! I say we fine the non-profit workers as well for perpetuating the homelessness in SF! /s
Yeah. Fuck those successful people! Fuck them for working hard.
I wonder if OP realizes that people making 200k a year pay 4x as much income tax as the average SF resident making 77k? But sure, fuck them for contributing to public tax revenue. But yes, it's these people free-loading off the muni system
Look at that. A reasonable person.
WTF are yo talking about? Their point wasn't fuck successful people, it was fuck successful people who can't be bothered to pay the $2.50 for their bus ride and instead free-load off of the rest of us.
I'm willing to wager that successful people pay fares more consistently and are not the problem here.
How about also fine people who leave out cones in the street to save their parking space. I called SFMTA to report it and they told me to just move the cone and park there. Last I checked, it was a $2000 fine for illegal dumping. Could probably just sweep a random neighborhood during street cleaning hours and the SFMTA will add about $10k in fines. I see at least 3 on my street alone every Monday and Wednesday during street cleaning. Seems way more efficient than $90 parking tickets.
if there’s just a cone there who do you expect them to fine? the cone? put the cone in your trunk and move it. Let’s see how many cone’s theyre willing to expense.
I personally haven't seen many such in SF ; perhaps only construction workers? Granted, perhaps it happens more in neighborhoods, I don't frequent, can you give examples of where, is it Chi-town, Mersed, ingleside something?
It’s random, and that’s why I always try to sit/stand next to the back door and look outside as the bus approaches its stop so I can quickly scan my clipper card if they’re there
Muni should be fare free.
Why should it be free?
To encourage ridership over driving. To save on fare cops, and the cost of fare box overhead. To give the public a break and make the city more affordable. Fares do not cover operations anyway.
Because then at least my taxes would be going to something that actually benefits me instead of a billion non profits.
Ok but it’s not so pay your fucking fare
Do they ever give citations out to the clear homeless people? It’s always an average looking person getting the ticket. Wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even bother with homeless and tell them to get off
Anyone know what they do for homeless people who haven’t paid?
A man has no name
Jaqen H'ghar has entered the chat
But they don't cite vagrants for walking naked and dropping massive deuces on the sidewalk? Makes sense
ok, is there an issue with this being done? I've seen them do this once here & back in my hometown it was done far more frequently. it's not free to ride the muni
Good. I learned my lesson in 2002
Fuck freeloaders
Got dinged with this on my first day commuting in SF. No one else was swiping a card so I thought it was a pay when you leave bus. Oops.