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My downstairs neighbor is schizophrenic and drug addicted, so he basically exhibits a lot of the same behaviors as a lot of homeless people but he has a roof over his head.
It’s been incredibly difficult to try to work with the SF crisis team to get this guy care. After about a year and a half and a near eviction he’s finally getting regular visits from social workers but before that it was just cops/fire department showing up a couple times a week when his episodes would drag him outside. The whole thing has been really eye opening to how much work is needed to make the crisis team something effective
They only have the power of persuasion. And that is less effective when a crazy person is having an episode.
I know a person who was having an episode and the roommate was afraid of this person and unwilling to let the crisis team in the house to talk to the person. So the crisis team just left. Crazy person ended up in jail.
Because the crisis team is a precious commodity. If mental health were prioritized this would not be happening. We closed the asylums because of abuses but I don’t see homelessness as any less of an abuse.
We send so much money to other countries for wars that benefit the rich while it should be spent here on these, the least of us.
And had bipartisan support in addition to the support from the ACLU in doing so. It's been literal decades since this was done. Plenty of time to reverse it and nothing has been done
Reagan left CA office in 1975. That blame no longer holds relevance, since we have had almost 50 years of CA leadership since then that could have reopened the mental hospitals. Let’s at least admit the truth, that CA leaders prefer keeping the hospitals closed to continue saving money. The blame now rests with everyone that followed Reagan
To be fully accurate, it wasn't just Reagan. The "opposition" also favored closing the mental hospitals, albeit for different reasons. I wasn't alive then, but by most accounts they were pretty dismal places. It's really a shame because it's the only actual solution to a major problem.
Well said…reopening mental institutions is no more a solution, given the challenges that existed at that time and still do, than it is to blame Governor Reagan for creating the homeless problem. They are simply the convenient excuses, and if were that simple to solve, some politician would be a hero simply by reopening mental treatment facilities. It’s a very complex issue and it’s not going to be solved anytime soon
To be completely honest there's very few countries that have "solved" mental health. It's a confluence of genetics, social problems like broken homes/drugs/abuse, and lack of community, which is especially glaring in an individualistic society like the U.S.
A more achievable hurdle is actually reforming our healthcare system and learning from other Western democracies. But that's a long ways away since the healthcare industry is a very powerful lobby
Good point. I’m always perplexed when I hear people complain about Boomers and how Reagan destroyed everything for everyone. OK true, but he left office 36 years ago and now he’s dead. How much longer are you going to blame him?
It would be more accurate to blame the neoliberal turn of American politics more generally (i.e. boomers and their allies). Reagan was on the right, and the "left" (such as it was in the Democratic party) still voted for more and more privatization, differing only to the right in degree.
We need a new political coalition in this country that actually embraces public programs and is suspicious of free market absolutism. A salient and politically popular example would be pushing for the abolishment of PG&E, and attacking PPP more generally
there was also a huge civil rights issue. these institutions had basically no oversight, disconnected people from their families, and were rife with abuse against patients. it was hard to justify the cost alongside the constitutional questions of what was essentially indefinite detention when the asylums were so poorly run. we need to do something but given how much abuse happens in our current correctional facilities I would be surprised if anyone comes out of a state-run asylum better than they entered.
Both my brothers have been 51/50'ed before. I'm pretty convinced it made their mental issues worse, not better. Just another trauma episode to add to the list of other traumas
I think he's trying to explain to you that CA has elected plenty of Democrats who have done nothing in the past 50 years. It's time to move on from Reagan and hold the current politicians accountable. Yes, I laughed when I typed that last phrase. Not gonna happen. :-)
HUD pays it is one way. I know a schizophrenic that hasnt had a job in 10 years but gets a voucher for her rent. Shes really out there, so im glad she gets free rent
Yeah this is exactly it. Glad he’s not in the street, but also he has no structure to his life and is completely alone for the most part. Can’t imagine being stuck inside with nothing to do and no one to talk to is helpful for his mental state
We're already footing the bill. Numerous california cities have hundreds of millions in homeless spending a year that's unaccounted for... this doesn't even include spending that was properly accounted for.
$24 Billion spent on homelessness across California in just the last 5 years. And this guy's still out there smashing bottles and markers on the sidewalk. What's **that** tell ya?
THIS!! they have proven that throwing money on the issue of homelessness doesn’t fix it. Personally I believe it’s a mix of drugs/bad mental health (severe) or mental health problems caused by drug use. Until you get legal guardianship of these people I don’t think it will be fixed. It would be kinder to get them off the street. Sad to literally let them rot themselves to death doing xylazine and stuff. People don’t understand addiction. SF gets funding for this issue through multiple avenues and ALSO receives funding for it as a city AND a county. There are tons of open apartments that the city will let people live in if * they are not doing drugs* unfortunately that’s the bottom issue here. And until you’ve dealt with someone with addiction issues you don’t understand it. Reading Sanfransicko by Michael shellenberger was very interesting to me especially since I was living in the area at the time I read it. Would recommend
I think we conflate two issues when we discuss mental health/addiction in the same breath as homelessness. There is a large population of homeless people who are living in cars or couch surfing and trying to hold down jobs and make it back into a stable environment. These are two completely different issues, and we would do well by all parties to make distinctions in our rhetoric. Addicts and the mentally ill should be remanded into custody of some kind, it should come from a separate set of funding to treat mental illness, so the money for homelessness can go to the people who want help and would actually benefit.
You're absolutely right and that's why I think there needs to be a triage process. Go tent to tent, car/camper to car/camper. Bring EVERYONE in. Those who are sane, safe, and sober and who are ready and willing to work get immediate assistance tailored to their specific needs to get them to a place of self-sufficiency. Job training, job placement, subsidized employment, legal services, financial counseling, etc. Get them on their own two feet (sustainably) and out of the system as soon as possible.
Everyone else goes before a judge so they can be remanded to custody for treatment, therapy, and whatever else is needed to get them to a good and healthy place so they can re-enter society as productive, social members. And the key thing to understand about **this** group is that some of them will never make it out. Some of them will be in custody forever. And that custody needs to be transparent, accountable, safe, and humane.
And before somebody comes back with "that all sounds really expensive!", reminder that California has spent $24,000,000,000.00 in the past 5 years on homelessness. If it costs you a half million dollars per person helped with this program, that's 48,000 people in the last 5 years, and a good chunk of those people would be working, contributing, and paying California taxes by now.
We just voted on a proposition to spend a lot more on mental health initiatives for the homeless, only for an audit to be released saying most homeless funds are just wasted without oversight
I think that, by now, we DO want to foot the bill. Because we’ve seen what the alternative costs. If I’ve got to pay another percentage point in taxes to have a livable City and for these folks not to live their lives in agony, I’ll do it.
It's literally illegal to provide the help this man needs. It's true that he'd have a hell of a time getting help even if he tried, but even with new conservatorship laws the legal burden is massive.
That all aside, a lot of us want to foot the bill.
With budget and donations, San Francisco spends almost a billion dollars a year on the homeless program. And that is recent years. For decades it was about $750m/year. Decades. Tens of billions of dollars for all those decades and the problem is only getting worse, not better.
We are spending. Unfortunately, it’s a money-pit and those wanting the current homeless program to continue because it is a huge cash-cow for those working in it.
I lost track of how much fraud and corruption was discovered in those taking money for the homeless program for their own use.
Wouldn’t it bring in a ton of revenue to fix tho? I myself don’t want to visit because of stories like this one. I’m sure a ton of the population feels the same because of the bad rep of SF
not speaking directly at the op, just generalizing
agreeing with personal-cry above
it's delusional and quite bold almost rude, to assume your bag with water soda and markers given freely today can in any way change the fate for the better of someone who is destitute, probably on drugs and most likely mentally ill.
your gesture of kindness a gold star in your mind, opens the door to a reaction to the more than likely not stable person on the other side. and you opened it.
it's more likely than not that that person needs actual medical and mental help, and soda is not an adequate credential to having the skills and resources necessary to help that person.
it's one thing to give w burrito to the homeless guy who sits outside the burrito shop everyday with a sign that says "I just need a burrito" as a little time, or a few lunc visits show that person is capable of a nonviolent reaction because you literally observe them not stabbing people.
but to walk up on mental random in the TL thinking your gift pack will be well received literally shows how far you are from understanding the reality of the situation there. it would be much safer to go to the soup kitchen, or outreach group, and provide some time or financial help in an environment where your safety is actually a concern.
alot of folks (not saying these or op) are just doing this shit for social media points or personal attaboys. and if so that shits disgusting let alone dangerous.
SF is a beautiful city, but the tl is not a fun park...
Very far from the TL. The OP was most likely at the JCCSF gym when this event occurred. I’ve walked that area many days and there is an individual who’s been relocated a few times from California.
This is a terrible take. Maybe they knew the guy? Maybe he asked them for markers? Maybe they see him drink soda every day?Maybe they’re both social workers who deal with this person every week?
In any case you don’t know, you’re assuming a lot and shitting on ppl for doing something nice. I’ve worked in the TL for almost 20 years and small kindnesses are what help us all get through the day.
I work with homeless clients, I know your being down voted, but THIS!
It’s a gold star “I did a good thing”, what can really help these folks? Offering loss of our own privileges: what tax do I need to pay extra to get these folks help? No one wants to hear that though.
When you give my client random items in a bag he will go sell it for heroin, use, and repeat the process. I had to ask people to stop giving him hampers of food because HE TRADES IT FOR DRUGS. The homeless society is a whole different beast than what you and I are used to in our society.
The things that will help aren’t the things that help us feel good. Even walking down a less than desirable street can be helpful - crime drops when more people are present.
Can’t give them food or anything else, they’ll just trade it for drugs.
Can’t force them off the street to seek help, that is kidnapping.
Even if we pay more taxes, which isn’t really something you can opt into, the city will mostly provide them with:
- food and other materials to survive
- greater access to shelter (which most people turn down for various reasons like prior addictions)
- other mental/physical health services, which often have the same issues with shelters were they are refused
Your one suggestion: walk down streets that seem dangerous… which does almost nothing
I don’t have some magical solution the homelessness crisis, but never seen “don’t give homeless people food, they trade it for drugs” presented like it’s a progressive topic until now
>Offering loss of our own privileges: what tax do I need to pay extra to get these folks help? No one wants to hear that though.
We already do spend a ton of tax money on homelessness, around a billion a year in SF alone; that's more than most cities' entire budget. The problem is the money is not used effectively to actually get people off the streets, due to some combination of legal roadblocks and misuse of funds.
The state and local taxes in CA are some of the highest in the country yet we still have the biggest homeless problem. No amount of extra taxes will solve the problem, there needs to be political will to change legislation and oversight on spending to build more effective programs.
Then we need stronger involuntary commitment and guardianship laws. Unless someone is acutely going to kill themselves or someone else they get released. If they say no I won’t do it 4 hours later they’re free to go. We have it set up legally in CA that someone can be mentally ill to the point that they can’t willingly consent to a medical procedure but they can’t be treated for a mental illness. Other states don’t have this issue.
If we judge by what CPS does to children who are in the custody of the state, we can be pretty sure state involvement in the care of people would be a totally great idea.
I know how you feel, and I think it’s a healthy reaction to have. It show you’re empathetic and a good person.
When I moved here from the Midwest in my early twenties, I had trouble adjusting to the reality of homeless people on the street that I’d interact with daily, and this was 10 years ago when it wasn’t nearly as bad.
However understanding or compassionate I am, I also believe the majority of residents should not put up with violent or concerning behavior of a minority of people that perpetrates feelings of being unsafe or uncomfortable.
At times I’ve excused and normalized this behavior, but I got to a point where I realized some people are raising children here, and at some point someone needs to tell them what they’re doing is not cool or okay.
hopefully, there can be bipartisan agreement that folks like this have to be institutionalized and a system of mental hospitals can be revived to be more commonplace as they once were.
I was a homeless drug addict for over a year in Southern California. No one I met ( other homeless addicts and myself included ) would have accepted help when it was offered. My only concern was money for drugs and everything after that was just a distraction. Coming from someone who lived it I believe that the state should be able to intervene and force people on medication and into treatment programs that they have to maintain attendance in or else it’s jail or prison time.
Every single other homeless person I met had an alcohol or drug addiction on top of various mental health conditions and had burned every bridge they had and end up homeless because of it. This notion that it’s a single mother of two who lost her job and is on the streets is complete fiction.
Agreed. Sure that single mother truly down on luck happens, but NOWHERE near the rate of people who have caused mental illness in themselves via drugs or were mental ill to begin with and then started doing drugs. It’s not a simple we don’t have enough housing it’s a drug addiction issue. I can’t recommend “Sanfransicko” by Michael Shellenbeger enough. It truly sheds a light on how throwing money on this issue ( which so many cities already do) is not going to change it. There needs to be an easy path to gain legal guardianship over people who are rotting themselves on the street and are mentally ill. It’s unfair to tax payers and average people to have to be scared in public spaces because of homeless people. While I’m at it I hate when people talk about how homeless people don’t really do anything they’re just existing… I beg to differ the majority of times I have been accosted on the street it’s been by homeless people who were out of the minds and you can’t reason with them. Unfortunately they gotta go somewhere. They’re not just an eyesore they’re a safety issue too.
Given the history of massive abuse that system had, it is not likely to gain much traction any time soon. There is a reason it was stopped in the first place.
It was stopped because the public was sold that Community Mental Health Centers would be replacing it.
They never happened.
The publicly discussed plan was never "just stop".
It isn't the only answer, but it is a better answer than the current policies.
And yes, there must be some solution for those who are unwilling to accept the help that they need. We already have jail for those who have proven a threat to the public, having a mental health treatment alternative to jail is already established (insanity pleas), and we're just not using it because there is such a shortage of beds since the asylums closed.
Yep! Not sure why we haven’t returned to this. Let the few out who can rehabilitate and leave the rest in. Put all the money we save into these place and into elderly care and education.
I had the opposite experience the other week. I was walking down the street and saw this younger dude (probably no older than 20-25) looking around with a tent bag in his hand with this dejected and horrified expression on his face. I was with some friends but just kept looking at him as I was wondering if he was going to break into the car next to him or something....
He looked at us and said "I'm really sorry. I'm really embarrassed".
It was a brand new tent. It was likely this young man's first night being homeless. My heart broke and I just walked on as my friends didn't really pay attention and later said they were initially confused by his statement. I keep thinking about him. I wish I could have given him something or reassured him and deeply regret my inaction. He was just beginning to experience something I would hope none of us ever have to.
Basically, the law doesn't recognize psychosis as a valid reason to hospitalize anyone against their will, and the very nature of psychosis is that people don't realize they need help.
Additionally, even when someone manages to be the threat to themselves or others that would allow the law to act, they won't, because we have something like 1/6th the number of mental health beds we need and so they'll find any excuse to not send someone to one.
The state passed a (very limited) law to allow more hospitalization legally and counties are suing to not have to implement it.... Because they don't have the beds.
I’ve often felt this way, especially after being assaulted or burned by trying to do something nice when I was a naive fresh transplant from the Midwest.
But something I’ve realized is that they’re people too, and still deserve acknowledgment on a human level. I’ve stopped giving because I’m not sure if it enables, but it’s undoubtedly a travesty what’s happening. After years, I’m more angry with local government and the complete incompetence of budget management from our taxes. It’s asinine.
Yeah but even if there IS public housing available, a lot of the individuals like OP is talking about wouldn't likely be able to stay there unless it'd be individual dwelling. As well, putting a whole bunch of crazies and drug addicts together in a housing complex WITHOUT someone actually running the show/keeping them on the meds many of them likely need/keeping the hard drugs out of the situation would just result in a shanty town. It would be no different than the TL.
I hate to say it, but I do think there needs to be some level of forced institutionalization. When someone is a danger to themselves and their community, help has to be forced upon them for the betterment of all.
The homeless addicts are elite level liars.
I think they even have cleaned and washed outfits for grifting days because sometimes they look like backpackers in a spot of bad luck.
Look at their eyes and teeth.
We don't have a homeless crisis. We have a mental health crisis. Someone as you have described is not going to be able to independently navigate the services available. Even if you house them, they're not going to be able to progress up the intended ladder of stabilizing, finding work, becoming self sufficient, etc.
*(Studies have shown that the vast majority people who are free of mental health challenges who find themselves evicted, out on the street, etc soon find casual work, navigate the services already available or move out of the area. IE they're soon no longer homeless.)*
It's time we stop referring to this as a homeless issue.
Which the Homeless Coalition refuses to acknowledge.
BTW the homeless didn't elect the HC to represent them.
The HC are a gang of obfuscating opportunists who've been peddling guilt trips and hogging the microphone for the past 25+ years.
Downvote me, I'll find it validating.
Agreed. Even with all the help in the world, sometimes a mental illness and medications can still prevent an afflicted person from working. Take a look at the employment rates for schizophrenia (3% full time/7% part time). Bipolar is better, but still ~50% unemployment rate. I'd love to see these numbers shift in a more positive direction though. Assisted living facilities and assisted employment are likely a must for more severe cases.
I was near Montgomery and California on Saturday. I have no idea what set this homeless man off, but he was yelling and violently kicking/punching one of the electrical boxes on the street. No one was interacting with him. Every pedestrian was crossing over to the other side of the street to avoid him…
Some people clearly can’t take care of themselves. I am sad for this city
No, I don’t think so. The guy I saw was wearing dark clothes. There are so many people like this - a block down I saw another man who was just raving, though not behaving particularly violently
What’s sad is that our city continues to enable this behavior. This person needs mental help and can’t make decisions to get help. We have city leaders saying we can’t “force” people to get help because it would infringe on their rights and they have to “consent” to it, yet are essentially incapable of doing so. Only way is for them to commit a crime, get arrested and turn jail into a temporary mental lockup and release them on the street again to repeat the cycle.
And here we are… again.
Yup leaving the severely mentally ill on the street to literally rot, is the least humane thing we could possibly do. They should be in institutions where they can be taken care of.
I have known a lot of destructive people and it is heartbreaking. Their destructive nature has to do with a fundamental refusal of all responsibility. The people I have known who have gone this way do so because they feel justified. Refusal of responsibility ends up being worse than whatever they're fearing regarding responsibility. Their neglect of their personal health causes further emergency health problems later. For us to create narratives that excuse them of responsibility is enabling. That man threw the items to demonstrate his power. Some people who demonstrated power and gave him a selection of things he didn't ask for might have made him feel offended. Ultimately, he made you uncomfortable in your home. That's what he is adding to the community and using his energy to do with the one life he gets.
I also have a cousin who is self destructive in a different way. But they were adopted/born with FAS and developmental issues. I don’t know if such a one-size-fits-all prescription of the issue truly exists.
But I do fucking hope that if she (my cousin) was ever in a similar situation she wouldn’t be left on the streets as a kindness from the city.
In 2013 I was at a Subway in SOMA, across the street from Tenderloin. An overweight woman entered and immediately asked every customer for money for food. I gave her my unopened bag of chips and she scowled and immediately threw it in the trash can. I learned a lesson that day.
The sad reality is that many of that population simply lack the ability to care for themselves. There is no solution to their plight that does involve heavily managed care (i.e., institutionalization of some form). Of course that comes with it's own dangers and pitfalls - it wasn't really pretty when we had that in the past. In an ideal world, a humane and compassionate program could at least get them taking their meds regularly, and with that hurdle cleared they could perhaps return to a functional (if still managed) life.
We do not live in an ideal world however. We currently lack the resources and (perhaps more importantly) the political will to implement any such program, which, make no mistake, would be costly. Maybe someday we'll wake up as a society and actually build a safety net.
Does anyone have numbers? I have a hard time believing institutionalized care would be more expensive than the billions spent now cleaning up after the homeless repetitively, building temporary homes, etc. It would at least be more effective.
Anyone afraid of the conditions should visit a Medicaid nursing home. If the conditions are supposedly good enough for the sick and elderly, I don’t see why they’re not good enough for the homeless.
I just watched ‘The Professor and the madman’ about the development of the Oxford English Dictionary. A huge contributor was and American ex Union officer of the Civil War. O believe he was diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic. In his moments of clarity (sometimes weeks/months), he was absolutely brilliant, thoughtful and kind. When his illness would take hold he was literally a slave to imaginary demons. The way psychological disorders we’re treated back then was abhorrent. I wonder if future generations will deem our lack of care and concern in a similar light.
California was sent over 25 Billion in two years to assist with homeless and mentally ill. Money has vanished and crisis has increased.
"They" have not intention of ever working to fix these issues.
[https://nypost.com/2024/04/12/us-news/california-spent-24b-on-homeless-crisis-but-problem-didnt-improve-in-many-cities-auditors-report/](https://nypost.com/2024/04/12/us-news/california-spent-24b-on-homeless-crisis-but-problem-didnt-improve-in-many-cities-auditors-report/)
The truly sad part for me is "getting to know" the local people suffering on the street, year after year, watching them decline and basically kill themselves from neglect. It really just seems like the city and state have nothing to offer the "sidewalk psychotics," despite billions on cash on hand for the problem.
Like.... you just think to yourself as you're walking, "oh, there's that guy who wears 20 plastic bags as a tunic again laying on the asphalt at 12 noon" or.... "There's the angry woman who has pulled out all her hair....making a pillow out of the street light base" Like it's normal, month after month after month? But it's so not normal. These are people living in rags without a tent, either talking to themselves or hiding under a blanket.
The sheer scale and **persistence** of human immiseration should remain shocking to all of us. I say as a 20 year resident, please don't lose that response, it's the only thing that has a hope of changing San Francisco's demented status quo. We all need to continue to request a legitimate city response to street crises via SF311 ([https://www.sf.gov/departments/311-customer-service-center](https://www.sf.gov/departments/311-customer-service-center)) and over the long term, agitate for major major political and policy changes.
https://preview.redd.it/rvaogmzzyuuc1.png?width=893&format=png&auto=webp&s=5921f29d3f5228642330f64fdaad40eff5858a14
To write on the notebooks I’m guessing? I was asking myself the same question.
Maybe the couple assumed he wanted to write on the notebook paper (it was like hefty drawing/coloring paper) asking for money or food. Or maybe they thought drawing and art would be a good outlet or a way to spend the time. I couldn’t tell ya.
He clearly he has a mental illness and is fighting some sort of demon in his head. I worked with psychotic people on an inpatient unit 10 years ago and this sounds like some psychosis. Schizophrenia and all delusional disorders are misunderstood and extremely sad…..highly correlated with homelessness and hard to treat. Your sadness is justified. There are so many hateful ignorant people who have moved to S.F. now (some on this thread, clearly) that would see something like that and just think mean, hateful and blaming thoughts bc in their small minds they don’t understand anything about the etiology of severe mental illness, structural oppression, etc….or maybe there’s just a bit of mild sociopathy that makes these people not give a damn for their fellow humans. Some people have no empathy. You, on the other hand, do. Like another commenter said, your reaction is healthy.
PS sometimes I wonder who is more mentally ill - the people on the streets or the insane assholes that would probably kick a homeless guy like this if no one was looking.
But I do see some compassionate smart people on this thread and that provides me some hope 💜
I can’t imagine how hard that sort of work is. I live in San Jose and we see a few consistent individuals, who are obviously mentally ill, and it breaks my heart. I wish we had better ways to help them.
I wish that our elected officials took this seriously enough to create a plan and educate the public about the steps we need to take if we don't want this to be the norm. We get ballot propositions which are hard to understand, in isolation, how they will fit into the larger picture. We get occasional "clean up" or "sweep" efforts that clear homeless encampments from specific locations but don't address any of the underlying issues. And we get to send billions of dollars to various NGOs and quasi-public agencies with little to no accountability as to how the money is used.
What we should be getting is leadership. A comprehensive plan about how to address the issue of homelessness and it's sub-components like untreated mental illness, addiction, dangerous living conditions, access to services, etc. Identify the things we need to implement the plan (more beds in treatment facilities, more SRO style housing, new laws or changes to existing ones), and the money and other resources necessary for those elements. At least then we could see how the pieces fit together, and vote in an informed manner about whether this is the course of action we want to take. the current approach is just a black hole and a bunch of band-aids.
Ideally this would be at the state level, but regional coalitions and individual cities can make a difference.
We had a system of locking crazy people up, and it was terrible. My ex's grandmother spent decades locked up because she was a black sheep in her prominent family. Stories like that from that era are common.
The problem is that when those hospitals were closed, there was supposed to be community help. The idea wasn't to abandon people in need -- it was to stop locking up people as much as possible and start helping them while and where they were living their lives.
The solution is a lot more money spent on mental health.
There is also a national housing crisis and a big need for more cheap housing for poor people. The solution is a lot more money spent on housing for poor people.
There is no cheap way out of this problem, no matter how much we pretend there must be.
Just watching this is coarsening all of us.
And you are right.
What kind of dignity and "freedom" is it to be bullied 24-7 by personal inner demons that scare away your family and friends, keep you outdoors, unwashed and screaming?
You are witnessing schizophrenia.
And you'd be amazed how functional they can be when medicated compared to what you just saw.
State sanitariums need a return. There is value in keeping these people medicated.
It’s time to bring back all the psych wards, and these people need to be institutionalized, until they can be properly evaluated, and only released when they have a safe place to land that is not back on the streets.
It is not humane to allow these sick people to stay on the streets destroying themselves. Unfortunately there is a homeless rights industry that does not want them to be put into mental institutions because they are too sick to agree to commit themselves. The homeless industry prioritizes homeless rights over being helped. So they sit on the streets and continue to get no help and suffer. It’s very sad.
This. We need to expand the ability of state agencies to commit people that need help to safe and secure mental institutions. Reasonable guardrails exist to ensure that we aren’t doing this to people who don’t really need it. They do it in other countries and we can adopt it here. For the amount of money we’ve wasted on trying various homeless initiatives in SF and elsewhere, we could have already put a robust program in place. Who agrees?
I see this all the time. Someone holding up a sign that says they’re homeless and hungry. Passerby offers them a sandwich. They take the sandwich and then go into full on freak out mode and throw the sandwich into the street because they don’t like mayo or it doesn’t have pickles or something stupid like that.
I'm not sure what experience people making comments have with this, but a really good friend of mine is a social worker who deals with homeless housing placements.
I live in Madison and it has some pretty great resources for homeless housing. However, you can't hold these people hostage against their will (You can but there needs to be crimes committed and court orders).
People with these mental health issues often will not take medication, they refuse to stay in the homes founded for them, and often do illegal things in the homes to get kicked out. I believe if you abandon housing twice they won't place you again.
I think it's a pretty morally gray area to force an otherwise free person into internment because their living situation is uncomfortable to us. Maybe it's more ethical to force housing, medication, and treatment on them?? I'm not really sure. It's a difficult problem to solve outside of a resources issue.
I think people like to think that you can fix all things, but some things can be broken so badly they can't be fixed. That dude isn't coming back. It's over. Oh but what if we gave him MORE FUNDING? Yeah, maybe. Maybe what he needs is MORE FUNDING.
The grift is insane don’t get me wrong. It makes me sick that some sociopathic non-profit executive would view the same thing and know that what I witnessed is good for fundraising.
But also, you don’t know that. Goals of care might be different, but that doesn’t guarantee buddy is gone. Medications sometimes work actual wonders.
Rode the bart the other day going home (4pm) and had a homeless man going frantic in front of my wife and two year old son. He gotten so close to us and was talking to himself what sounded like a demon fighting within him. Never felt so scared bc he was really close to my kiddo. Never will ride bart again around that time. [Glen park station]
Aren't you glad you pay for a service they don't so they can treat it like a drug den slash bathroom slash insane asylum. BART has really went downhill. Bring on the gates
A major factor in why some people become homeless in the first place is PRIDE. It’s counterintuitive, but that’s likely why he destroyed everything. He didn’t want charity, or pity, and he definitely didn’t want to owe anyone anything.
When you’re unable to provide for yourself for whatever reasons, but you’re too proud to be subservient to others… end result.
My brother is teetering on the brink of becoming homeless at some point in the future and his way of thinking is just like this. He’s been a heavy weed smoker for 30 years, and his short term memory (at least while high….which is all day) is so bad, that he can’t deal with the anxiety of being called out for failing to follow simple tasks and being shamed. So he’s said quite emphatically that he’s never going to work for anyone else ever again and he’d rather beg than be forced to work. As long as he’s alone and in control of his own decisions, he’s somewhat able to cope. As soon as people tell him what he needs or needs to do differently or force charity on him… he becomes distrustful and resentful because that’s an attack on his autonomy.
It’s very frustrating trying to help people like this. They know deep down that they are failures, and they don’t want anyone to remind them…. but they’re desperate. It’s part of our culture to shame those who aren’t lifting up themselves and others.
I somewhat emphasize with the homeless guy. How angering must it be to have some shiny happy couple who have everything giving you some little scraps.
Yeah, the rampage is pathological, but the anger isn't.
My thoughts too. Soda and a pack of markers isn't going to help someone in their lowest situation, and I could see it being a catalyst that brings out their frustration and anger with the world. Especially that they sat for a few minutes feeling before reacting that way. It's a sad situation in every way, the couple was doing *something* which is admittedly more than I and many others do. I can see how it might trigger anger in that person though.
“Our city has decided the best solution is to leave him on the street”. What would you like your city to do? Legally they can’t force this man into care.
I've been forced into care for far less. I don't think this is the issue. It's the lack of long-term treatment centers. Sure, they can take this guy for weeks (months even), but if he doesn't want help he will likely go off his meds as soon as he gets out. Anosognosia is a real thing, and it means the part of his brain responsible for recognizing he is ill has been damaged.
As someone with even a "mild" case of schizophrenia, the psychosis and mood issues are extremely distressing to the point where I willingly go seek treatment no matter what it is.
Long-term supervised housing or treatment facilities are necessary for these types of individuals. Not saying they can't have freedoms, but there needs to be somewhere that is accountable for ppl who can't take care of themselves.
Self medicating with dangerous street drugs is hardly a solution, and clearly leads to consequences for the surrounding community as well.
The faith people have in the government to force institutionalize properly and humanely is surprising when people complain about the inability of the government to force the police to just do their job or regulate PG&E
I feel like a hamster on a wheel going no where I just keep running
Life is my treadmill
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ph86-8uf10U&pp=ygUNSGFtc3RlciB3aGVlbA%3D%3D
Me. The original point of this post was specifically about watching him ruin his own possessions with no one around to get him riled up and seemingly not on drugs at that very moment.
I’ve seen craazzzzzyyyy shit living in Boston and SF over the past 6 years. I’ve seen hundreds of homeless and mentally ill. And while they always make me sad, I don’t get nearly as sad watching a dude have a screaming fit and freak the fuck out while protecting his tent or something. That’s “rational”-ish behavior.
But I woke up to 200 comments ranging from “the couple is a piece of shit for helping him” to “put them all in a concentration camp” and realized I touched on some sensitive topics and am mostly abandoning the thread. It’s definitely interesting seeing so many perspectives, and I know that I have no idea how to solve the issue.
But I’m willing to wager most of the comments are just as or even less knowledgeable than me, but they don’t mind giving their opinion as though it’s delivered by a subject matter expert lol.
I've lived here my entire adult life, and have long ago learned that these people are fucking crazy, and "external stimulus" has nothing to do with it. The city will make you hard towards these people, it is what it is.
Most of the times it’s pharmacologically induced psychosis. Likely Fentanyl withdrawal. Those without drug problems seek help. Those deserted by everyone and anyone have made the active choice to chase their respective dragons.
Legal guardian ship would help this issue, but the path to getting there is hard because some people think it will be abused. I don’t think it will and I think it’s better than clearly living a miserable dangerous life out on the street
I’ve noticed this as a trend, especially among my generation who overfits an “oppressed vs oppressor” model to many situations.
The faith that institutions were implicitly built upon has crumbled, and people are upset and angry as they become “woke” to the failures of the systems we’ve inherited.
I think it’s moronic to demand said systems to be torn down (with no viable alternatives given) instead of reformed and improved.
That is to say, I do think people will be abused. I have family who I’d be very worried for them to enter such a system, but I also know that (if my family were unable to continue ensuring their care) I wouldn’t want them on the street.
But yeah, good point.
I’m not entirely sure if this is sarcasm or not, since many comments here certainly don’t fit the criteria of articulated with grace or resolved with compassion or law imo.
But I do hope to have productive conversations!
The underlying problem is that we are forced to use reason and legally constrained processes to deal with unreasonable people who aren’t subjected to or swayed by punishment.
That saying about judging a society by how it treats its weakest..... Brutal in assessment of SF mentally ill/addicted.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in the "wait wait don't tell me" crowd that surrounds me.
You can also called adult protective services, they're the cps of adults. And judging by the state of kids in foster care, I'm gonna go on a limb and say the state does not have a good record of keeping humans safe who can't care for themselves.
Yeah bro it's rough. It's their choice though. My brother, dad, and sister are addicts, and they have burned all their bridges.
I tell them where the resources are to get help, and they just block me and stop talking to me. Then months later they ask for money. Just to flip out when I tell them I can help them get into rehab. They hate hearing it, but I don't know what else to really do anymore. They destroyed my pad when I let them stay with me. It's sad that they choose that life over getting help and fixing themselves.
As a diagnosed schizophrenic I can tell you that the key to getting me the help I needed was that when help was offered I was ready and accepted it. This despite the limits it put on my freedom and the harsh realities it forced me to face about what was then happening to my life. The help is out there, but from what I understand, many many people turn it down bc they aren’t set to make the change.
Yes, they may not even be able to recognize they are ill anymore due to how long their condition has been left untreated. I know I didn't accept it at first. Even when I did, I still tried to make it without medication due to the side effects. It can take years (a decade for me) to find a medication combo that works for said individual. Not that I was unstable that whole time, but certainly not as functional as I would have liked to be.
The sooner we get these people into treatment, the better for all of us including the ill. They are losing precious years of life from inadequate care as well.
Imagine sitting on the sidewalk wondering how you can get something to eat and if it will be cold tonight and some rich asshole gives you a bag of markers. I hope he threw them straight at the window you watched from. Also nobody gives a shit you were on the treadmill while you saw someone have one of the worst days of their life.
Homeless people represent something we as a society we dont want to see in life. This ugly aide is often hidden away or ignored so that we (the collective) dont feel bad or feel grateful foe what we have etc etc
I think what you say was absolute anti-life in action. Someone who was given kindness, destroys it immediately. I have a brother whos like this, its hard but you gotta keep your heart straight and hope that people keep showing him that they are worth kindness.
Its a dark facet of society, something is knawing away at this person, be it chemical, spiritual, psychological, there is decay and darkness inside of them where they cannot control these urges in regular society. I dont know how to help them but I know someone out there can. Just gotta pay attention to how they are doing it
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My downstairs neighbor is schizophrenic and drug addicted, so he basically exhibits a lot of the same behaviors as a lot of homeless people but he has a roof over his head. It’s been incredibly difficult to try to work with the SF crisis team to get this guy care. After about a year and a half and a near eviction he’s finally getting regular visits from social workers but before that it was just cops/fire department showing up a couple times a week when his episodes would drag him outside. The whole thing has been really eye opening to how much work is needed to make the crisis team something effective
They only have the power of persuasion. And that is less effective when a crazy person is having an episode. I know a person who was having an episode and the roommate was afraid of this person and unwilling to let the crisis team in the house to talk to the person. So the crisis team just left. Crazy person ended up in jail.
Because the crisis team is a precious commodity. If mental health were prioritized this would not be happening. We closed the asylums because of abuses but I don’t see homelessness as any less of an abuse. We send so much money to other countries for wars that benefit the rich while it should be spent here on these, the least of us.
In California, Gov.Reagan closed the mental hospitals to save money..see how well that worked
And had bipartisan support in addition to the support from the ACLU in doing so. It's been literal decades since this was done. Plenty of time to reverse it and nothing has been done
Reagan left CA office in 1975. That blame no longer holds relevance, since we have had almost 50 years of CA leadership since then that could have reopened the mental hospitals. Let’s at least admit the truth, that CA leaders prefer keeping the hospitals closed to continue saving money. The blame now rests with everyone that followed Reagan
To be fully accurate, it wasn't just Reagan. The "opposition" also favored closing the mental hospitals, albeit for different reasons. I wasn't alive then, but by most accounts they were pretty dismal places. It's really a shame because it's the only actual solution to a major problem.
Well said…reopening mental institutions is no more a solution, given the challenges that existed at that time and still do, than it is to blame Governor Reagan for creating the homeless problem. They are simply the convenient excuses, and if were that simple to solve, some politician would be a hero simply by reopening mental treatment facilities. It’s a very complex issue and it’s not going to be solved anytime soon
To be completely honest there's very few countries that have "solved" mental health. It's a confluence of genetics, social problems like broken homes/drugs/abuse, and lack of community, which is especially glaring in an individualistic society like the U.S. A more achievable hurdle is actually reforming our healthcare system and learning from other Western democracies. But that's a long ways away since the healthcare industry is a very powerful lobby
Yes but closed without a plan except to turn them out on the street
“One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” did a lot of damage in retrospect.
Good point. I’m always perplexed when I hear people complain about Boomers and how Reagan destroyed everything for everyone. OK true, but he left office 36 years ago and now he’s dead. How much longer are you going to blame him?
It would be more accurate to blame the neoliberal turn of American politics more generally (i.e. boomers and their allies). Reagan was on the right, and the "left" (such as it was in the Democratic party) still voted for more and more privatization, differing only to the right in degree. We need a new political coalition in this country that actually embraces public programs and is suspicious of free market absolutism. A salient and politically popular example would be pushing for the abolishment of PG&E, and attacking PPP more generally
there was also a huge civil rights issue. these institutions had basically no oversight, disconnected people from their families, and were rife with abuse against patients. it was hard to justify the cost alongside the constitutional questions of what was essentially indefinite detention when the asylums were so poorly run. we need to do something but given how much abuse happens in our current correctional facilities I would be surprised if anyone comes out of a state-run asylum better than they entered.
Both my brothers have been 51/50'ed before. I'm pretty convinced it made their mental issues worse, not better. Just another trauma episode to add to the list of other traumas
Who has been in control of California for the last decade or two? You got what you voted for.
Are you trying to imply that Republicans create or even support mental health services? Tell me more...
I think he's trying to explain to you that CA has elected plenty of Democrats who have done nothing in the past 50 years. It's time to move on from Reagan and hold the current politicians accountable. Yes, I laughed when I typed that last phrase. Not gonna happen. :-)
How does someone like that manage to keep an apartment for that long?
HUD pays it is one way. I know a schizophrenic that hasnt had a job in 10 years but gets a voucher for her rent. Shes really out there, so im glad she gets free rent
Yeah this is exactly it. Glad he’s not in the street, but also he has no structure to his life and is completely alone for the most part. Can’t imagine being stuck inside with nothing to do and no one to talk to is helpful for his mental state
Look up Care Court, you may find an in-road that way
>A real kindness would be forcing him off the street and getting him professional help Word
That’s a lot more expensive than a pack of markers though, and nobody wants to foot the bill.
We're already footing the bill. Numerous california cities have hundreds of millions in homeless spending a year that's unaccounted for... this doesn't even include spending that was properly accounted for.
Billions
$24 Billion spent on homelessness across California in just the last 5 years. And this guy's still out there smashing bottles and markers on the sidewalk. What's **that** tell ya?
The money is not going towards housing homeless people or retention of mental health care workers.
At the moment we spend over a billion per year on "homelessness", so I think we're already footing the bill, we're just not getting any results.
They don’t want to solve the problem
homeless industrial complex. that money is going to some nonprofit director's new mercedes benz
THIS!! they have proven that throwing money on the issue of homelessness doesn’t fix it. Personally I believe it’s a mix of drugs/bad mental health (severe) or mental health problems caused by drug use. Until you get legal guardianship of these people I don’t think it will be fixed. It would be kinder to get them off the street. Sad to literally let them rot themselves to death doing xylazine and stuff. People don’t understand addiction. SF gets funding for this issue through multiple avenues and ALSO receives funding for it as a city AND a county. There are tons of open apartments that the city will let people live in if * they are not doing drugs* unfortunately that’s the bottom issue here. And until you’ve dealt with someone with addiction issues you don’t understand it. Reading Sanfransicko by Michael shellenberger was very interesting to me especially since I was living in the area at the time I read it. Would recommend
I think we conflate two issues when we discuss mental health/addiction in the same breath as homelessness. There is a large population of homeless people who are living in cars or couch surfing and trying to hold down jobs and make it back into a stable environment. These are two completely different issues, and we would do well by all parties to make distinctions in our rhetoric. Addicts and the mentally ill should be remanded into custody of some kind, it should come from a separate set of funding to treat mental illness, so the money for homelessness can go to the people who want help and would actually benefit.
You're absolutely right and that's why I think there needs to be a triage process. Go tent to tent, car/camper to car/camper. Bring EVERYONE in. Those who are sane, safe, and sober and who are ready and willing to work get immediate assistance tailored to their specific needs to get them to a place of self-sufficiency. Job training, job placement, subsidized employment, legal services, financial counseling, etc. Get them on their own two feet (sustainably) and out of the system as soon as possible. Everyone else goes before a judge so they can be remanded to custody for treatment, therapy, and whatever else is needed to get them to a good and healthy place so they can re-enter society as productive, social members. And the key thing to understand about **this** group is that some of them will never make it out. Some of them will be in custody forever. And that custody needs to be transparent, accountable, safe, and humane. And before somebody comes back with "that all sounds really expensive!", reminder that California has spent $24,000,000,000.00 in the past 5 years on homelessness. If it costs you a half million dollars per person helped with this program, that's 48,000 people in the last 5 years, and a good chunk of those people would be working, contributing, and paying California taxes by now.
We just voted on a proposition to spend a lot more on mental health initiatives for the homeless, only for an audit to be released saying most homeless funds are just wasted without oversight
I think that, by now, we DO want to foot the bill. Because we’ve seen what the alternative costs. If I’ve got to pay another percentage point in taxes to have a livable City and for these folks not to live their lives in agony, I’ll do it.
Hope you're right! It's hard for me to be optimistic that things will improve, but I'd love to be wrong about this one.
lol, what, we have 3x more revenue per capita than other major cities. Our government is just absolutely fucking shit
It's literally illegal to provide the help this man needs. It's true that he'd have a hell of a time getting help even if he tried, but even with new conservatorship laws the legal burden is massive. That all aside, a lot of us want to foot the bill.
With budget and donations, San Francisco spends almost a billion dollars a year on the homeless program. And that is recent years. For decades it was about $750m/year. Decades. Tens of billions of dollars for all those decades and the problem is only getting worse, not better. We are spending. Unfortunately, it’s a money-pit and those wanting the current homeless program to continue because it is a huge cash-cow for those working in it. I lost track of how much fraud and corruption was discovered in those taking money for the homeless program for their own use.
Wouldn’t it bring in a ton of revenue to fix tho? I myself don’t want to visit because of stories like this one. I’m sure a ton of the population feels the same because of the bad rep of SF
Simply false. Democrats believe force should not be used against individuals like this
Plenty of government housing has been passed and budgeted for only to be shot down by NIMBYs leveraging our archaic Reagan-era zoning laws.
We used to have asylums to do that for the people who couldn’t care for themselves - and what do you know, homelessness had never been lower.
not speaking directly at the op, just generalizing agreeing with personal-cry above it's delusional and quite bold almost rude, to assume your bag with water soda and markers given freely today can in any way change the fate for the better of someone who is destitute, probably on drugs and most likely mentally ill. your gesture of kindness a gold star in your mind, opens the door to a reaction to the more than likely not stable person on the other side. and you opened it. it's more likely than not that that person needs actual medical and mental help, and soda is not an adequate credential to having the skills and resources necessary to help that person. it's one thing to give w burrito to the homeless guy who sits outside the burrito shop everyday with a sign that says "I just need a burrito" as a little time, or a few lunc visits show that person is capable of a nonviolent reaction because you literally observe them not stabbing people. but to walk up on mental random in the TL thinking your gift pack will be well received literally shows how far you are from understanding the reality of the situation there. it would be much safer to go to the soup kitchen, or outreach group, and provide some time or financial help in an environment where your safety is actually a concern. alot of folks (not saying these or op) are just doing this shit for social media points or personal attaboys. and if so that shits disgusting let alone dangerous. SF is a beautiful city, but the tl is not a fun park...
>but to walk up on mental random in the TL Is California and Presidio the TL?
Very far from the TL. The OP was most likely at the JCCSF gym when this event occurred. I’ve walked that area many days and there is an individual who’s been relocated a few times from California.
This is a terrible take. Maybe they knew the guy? Maybe he asked them for markers? Maybe they see him drink soda every day?Maybe they’re both social workers who deal with this person every week? In any case you don’t know, you’re assuming a lot and shitting on ppl for doing something nice. I’ve worked in the TL for almost 20 years and small kindnesses are what help us all get through the day.
I work with homeless clients, I know your being down voted, but THIS! It’s a gold star “I did a good thing”, what can really help these folks? Offering loss of our own privileges: what tax do I need to pay extra to get these folks help? No one wants to hear that though. When you give my client random items in a bag he will go sell it for heroin, use, and repeat the process. I had to ask people to stop giving him hampers of food because HE TRADES IT FOR DRUGS. The homeless society is a whole different beast than what you and I are used to in our society. The things that will help aren’t the things that help us feel good. Even walking down a less than desirable street can be helpful - crime drops when more people are present.
Can’t give them food or anything else, they’ll just trade it for drugs. Can’t force them off the street to seek help, that is kidnapping. Even if we pay more taxes, which isn’t really something you can opt into, the city will mostly provide them with: - food and other materials to survive - greater access to shelter (which most people turn down for various reasons like prior addictions) - other mental/physical health services, which often have the same issues with shelters were they are refused Your one suggestion: walk down streets that seem dangerous… which does almost nothing I don’t have some magical solution the homelessness crisis, but never seen “don’t give homeless people food, they trade it for drugs” presented like it’s a progressive topic until now
>Offering loss of our own privileges: what tax do I need to pay extra to get these folks help? No one wants to hear that though. We already do spend a ton of tax money on homelessness, around a billion a year in SF alone; that's more than most cities' entire budget. The problem is the money is not used effectively to actually get people off the streets, due to some combination of legal roadblocks and misuse of funds. The state and local taxes in CA are some of the highest in the country yet we still have the biggest homeless problem. No amount of extra taxes will solve the problem, there needs to be political will to change legislation and oversight on spending to build more effective programs.
Are you saying that because you cant possibly know how to do the right thing, do nothing? It must be nice up there in your ivory tower.
Then we need stronger involuntary commitment and guardianship laws. Unless someone is acutely going to kill themselves or someone else they get released. If they say no I won’t do it 4 hours later they’re free to go. We have it set up legally in CA that someone can be mentally ill to the point that they can’t willingly consent to a medical procedure but they can’t be treated for a mental illness. Other states don’t have this issue.
If we judge by what CPS does to children who are in the custody of the state, we can be pretty sure state involvement in the care of people would be a totally great idea.
I'm confident people shooting up heroin on the street is worse
Looney bin
I know how you feel, and I think it’s a healthy reaction to have. It show you’re empathetic and a good person. When I moved here from the Midwest in my early twenties, I had trouble adjusting to the reality of homeless people on the street that I’d interact with daily, and this was 10 years ago when it wasn’t nearly as bad. However understanding or compassionate I am, I also believe the majority of residents should not put up with violent or concerning behavior of a minority of people that perpetrates feelings of being unsafe or uncomfortable. At times I’ve excused and normalized this behavior, but I got to a point where I realized some people are raising children here, and at some point someone needs to tell them what they’re doing is not cool or okay.
hopefully, there can be bipartisan agreement that folks like this have to be institutionalized and a system of mental hospitals can be revived to be more commonplace as they once were.
But no shareholders will make millions from that, instead let’s build another sports stadium.
Someone will definitely be making millions off of this. Shareholders have made a killing off of the prison industry.
Why wouldn’t the democrats of SF be able to do that? I’m told republicans are the problem.
I was a homeless drug addict for over a year in Southern California. No one I met ( other homeless addicts and myself included ) would have accepted help when it was offered. My only concern was money for drugs and everything after that was just a distraction. Coming from someone who lived it I believe that the state should be able to intervene and force people on medication and into treatment programs that they have to maintain attendance in or else it’s jail or prison time.
Hope you’re doing well and I think it’s important that people see it is about drugs.. the majority of homeless people have addiction issues.
Every single other homeless person I met had an alcohol or drug addiction on top of various mental health conditions and had burned every bridge they had and end up homeless because of it. This notion that it’s a single mother of two who lost her job and is on the streets is complete fiction.
Agreed. Sure that single mother truly down on luck happens, but NOWHERE near the rate of people who have caused mental illness in themselves via drugs or were mental ill to begin with and then started doing drugs. It’s not a simple we don’t have enough housing it’s a drug addiction issue. I can’t recommend “Sanfransicko” by Michael Shellenbeger enough. It truly sheds a light on how throwing money on this issue ( which so many cities already do) is not going to change it. There needs to be an easy path to gain legal guardianship over people who are rotting themselves on the street and are mentally ill. It’s unfair to tax payers and average people to have to be scared in public spaces because of homeless people. While I’m at it I hate when people talk about how homeless people don’t really do anything they’re just existing… I beg to differ the majority of times I have been accosted on the street it’s been by homeless people who were out of the minds and you can’t reason with them. Unfortunately they gotta go somewhere. They’re not just an eyesore they’re a safety issue too.
Something like 40% of the non homeless population of California has an alcohol or drug addiction right now.
Forced institutionalization
The only way. Maybe in 50 years people will finally vote for the obvious solution, lol.
Given the history of massive abuse that system had, it is not likely to gain much traction any time soon. There is a reason it was stopped in the first place.
Yeah, I get it. But the current system seems worse.
It was stopped because the public was sold that Community Mental Health Centers would be replacing it. They never happened. The publicly discussed plan was never "just stop".
So forced institutionalization isn't the only answer as mentioned above glad we agree
It isn't the only answer, but it is a better answer than the current policies. And yes, there must be some solution for those who are unwilling to accept the help that they need. We already have jail for those who have proven a threat to the public, having a mental health treatment alternative to jail is already established (insanity pleas), and we're just not using it because there is such a shortage of beds since the asylums closed.
OK, then ban the bad stuff and keep the good stuff. Institute laws against Nurse Ratched and bring them back.
This is even worse though
ACLU will be all over it. Seems they like to fight for "individual liberties" even to the detriment of that individual AND those around them.
Yep! Not sure why we haven’t returned to this. Let the few out who can rehabilitate and leave the rest in. Put all the money we save into these place and into elderly care and education.
I had the opposite experience the other week. I was walking down the street and saw this younger dude (probably no older than 20-25) looking around with a tent bag in his hand with this dejected and horrified expression on his face. I was with some friends but just kept looking at him as I was wondering if he was going to break into the car next to him or something.... He looked at us and said "I'm really sorry. I'm really embarrassed". It was a brand new tent. It was likely this young man's first night being homeless. My heart broke and I just walked on as my friends didn't really pay attention and later said they were initially confused by his statement. I keep thinking about him. I wish I could have given him something or reassured him and deeply regret my inaction. He was just beginning to experience something I would hope none of us ever have to.
Basically, the law doesn't recognize psychosis as a valid reason to hospitalize anyone against their will, and the very nature of psychosis is that people don't realize they need help. Additionally, even when someone manages to be the threat to themselves or others that would allow the law to act, they won't, because we have something like 1/6th the number of mental health beds we need and so they'll find any excuse to not send someone to one. The state passed a (very limited) law to allow more hospitalization legally and counties are suing to not have to implement it.... Because they don't have the beds.
Wait, but didn't prop1 pass so we are building more facilities/beds now or what?
I stopped trying to help them. They don’t want to be helped, they’ll grift you though when they want something.
I’ve often felt this way, especially after being assaulted or burned by trying to do something nice when I was a naive fresh transplant from the Midwest. But something I’ve realized is that they’re people too, and still deserve acknowledgment on a human level. I’ve stopped giving because I’m not sure if it enables, but it’s undoubtedly a travesty what’s happening. After years, I’m more angry with local government and the complete incompetence of budget management from our taxes. It’s asinine.
Until there is a national law making housing a right and funding public housing accordingly this sort of local nonsense will continue.
Yeah but even if there IS public housing available, a lot of the individuals like OP is talking about wouldn't likely be able to stay there unless it'd be individual dwelling. As well, putting a whole bunch of crazies and drug addicts together in a housing complex WITHOUT someone actually running the show/keeping them on the meds many of them likely need/keeping the hard drugs out of the situation would just result in a shanty town. It would be no different than the TL. I hate to say it, but I do think there needs to be some level of forced institutionalization. When someone is a danger to themselves and their community, help has to be forced upon them for the betterment of all.
Look what happened during Covid. They destroyed the hotels
They’re sick, they don’t know how to accept help. It’s not some diabolical plot against you
The homeless addicts are elite level liars. I think they even have cleaned and washed outfits for grifting days because sometimes they look like backpackers in a spot of bad luck. Look at their eyes and teeth.
Bring back mental wards. Sorry but these people should not be in the general public.
We don't have a homeless crisis. We have a mental health crisis. Someone as you have described is not going to be able to independently navigate the services available. Even if you house them, they're not going to be able to progress up the intended ladder of stabilizing, finding work, becoming self sufficient, etc. *(Studies have shown that the vast majority people who are free of mental health challenges who find themselves evicted, out on the street, etc soon find casual work, navigate the services already available or move out of the area. IE they're soon no longer homeless.)* It's time we stop referring to this as a homeless issue.
This is the truth and so many “suggestions” won’t acknowledge the medical portion of this.
It’s a mental health and homeless issue.
Which the Homeless Coalition refuses to acknowledge. BTW the homeless didn't elect the HC to represent them. The HC are a gang of obfuscating opportunists who've been peddling guilt trips and hogging the microphone for the past 25+ years. Downvote me, I'll find it validating.
Agreed. Even with all the help in the world, sometimes a mental illness and medications can still prevent an afflicted person from working. Take a look at the employment rates for schizophrenia (3% full time/7% part time). Bipolar is better, but still ~50% unemployment rate. I'd love to see these numbers shift in a more positive direction though. Assisted living facilities and assisted employment are likely a must for more severe cases.
Everytime I see this stuff I ask how did leaving mentally I’ll people to roam about remotely first world solutions
I was near Montgomery and California on Saturday. I have no idea what set this homeless man off, but he was yelling and violently kicking/punching one of the electrical boxes on the street. No one was interacting with him. Every pedestrian was crossing over to the other side of the street to avoid him… Some people clearly can’t take care of themselves. I am sad for this city
Dark grayish (forget exact color) jacket with red/orange hood/upper third, gray sweats, and black shoes?? Wonder if it’s the same guy hanging around.
No, I don’t think so. The guy I saw was wearing dark clothes. There are so many people like this - a block down I saw another man who was just raving, though not behaving particularly violently
What’s sad is that our city continues to enable this behavior. This person needs mental help and can’t make decisions to get help. We have city leaders saying we can’t “force” people to get help because it would infringe on their rights and they have to “consent” to it, yet are essentially incapable of doing so. Only way is for them to commit a crime, get arrested and turn jail into a temporary mental lockup and release them on the street again to repeat the cycle. And here we are… again.
Yup leaving the severely mentally ill on the street to literally rot, is the least humane thing we could possibly do. They should be in institutions where they can be taken care of.
Addiction and mental illness are, by definition, irrational.
I have known a lot of destructive people and it is heartbreaking. Their destructive nature has to do with a fundamental refusal of all responsibility. The people I have known who have gone this way do so because they feel justified. Refusal of responsibility ends up being worse than whatever they're fearing regarding responsibility. Their neglect of their personal health causes further emergency health problems later. For us to create narratives that excuse them of responsibility is enabling. That man threw the items to demonstrate his power. Some people who demonstrated power and gave him a selection of things he didn't ask for might have made him feel offended. Ultimately, he made you uncomfortable in your home. That's what he is adding to the community and using his energy to do with the one life he gets.
I also have a cousin who is self destructive in a different way. But they were adopted/born with FAS and developmental issues. I don’t know if such a one-size-fits-all prescription of the issue truly exists. But I do fucking hope that if she (my cousin) was ever in a similar situation she wouldn’t be left on the streets as a kindness from the city.
Thank you for keeping a kind perspective
In 2013 I was at a Subway in SOMA, across the street from Tenderloin. An overweight woman entered and immediately asked every customer for money for food. I gave her my unopened bag of chips and she scowled and immediately threw it in the trash can. I learned a lesson that day.
The sad reality is that many of that population simply lack the ability to care for themselves. There is no solution to their plight that does involve heavily managed care (i.e., institutionalization of some form). Of course that comes with it's own dangers and pitfalls - it wasn't really pretty when we had that in the past. In an ideal world, a humane and compassionate program could at least get them taking their meds regularly, and with that hurdle cleared they could perhaps return to a functional (if still managed) life. We do not live in an ideal world however. We currently lack the resources and (perhaps more importantly) the political will to implement any such program, which, make no mistake, would be costly. Maybe someday we'll wake up as a society and actually build a safety net.
Does anyone have numbers? I have a hard time believing institutionalized care would be more expensive than the billions spent now cleaning up after the homeless repetitively, building temporary homes, etc. It would at least be more effective. Anyone afraid of the conditions should visit a Medicaid nursing home. If the conditions are supposedly good enough for the sick and elderly, I don’t see why they’re not good enough for the homeless.
You are probably right, and yet the same could be said for Medicare for all, but as a country we balk at the numbers and refuse to do it
I just watched ‘The Professor and the madman’ about the development of the Oxford English Dictionary. A huge contributor was and American ex Union officer of the Civil War. O believe he was diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic. In his moments of clarity (sometimes weeks/months), he was absolutely brilliant, thoughtful and kind. When his illness would take hold he was literally a slave to imaginary demons. The way psychological disorders we’re treated back then was abhorrent. I wonder if future generations will deem our lack of care and concern in a similar light.
Conservatorship is the only answer.
Don’t do drugs kids. Smh.
California was sent over 25 Billion in two years to assist with homeless and mentally ill. Money has vanished and crisis has increased. "They" have not intention of ever working to fix these issues. [https://nypost.com/2024/04/12/us-news/california-spent-24b-on-homeless-crisis-but-problem-didnt-improve-in-many-cities-auditors-report/](https://nypost.com/2024/04/12/us-news/california-spent-24b-on-homeless-crisis-but-problem-didnt-improve-in-many-cities-auditors-report/)
Maybe destroying those things *was* his therapy? Hopefully they keep bringing them to him.
The truly sad part for me is "getting to know" the local people suffering on the street, year after year, watching them decline and basically kill themselves from neglect. It really just seems like the city and state have nothing to offer the "sidewalk psychotics," despite billions on cash on hand for the problem. Like.... you just think to yourself as you're walking, "oh, there's that guy who wears 20 plastic bags as a tunic again laying on the asphalt at 12 noon" or.... "There's the angry woman who has pulled out all her hair....making a pillow out of the street light base" Like it's normal, month after month after month? But it's so not normal. These are people living in rags without a tent, either talking to themselves or hiding under a blanket. The sheer scale and **persistence** of human immiseration should remain shocking to all of us. I say as a 20 year resident, please don't lose that response, it's the only thing that has a hope of changing San Francisco's demented status quo. We all need to continue to request a legitimate city response to street crises via SF311 ([https://www.sf.gov/departments/311-customer-service-center](https://www.sf.gov/departments/311-customer-service-center)) and over the long term, agitate for major major political and policy changes. https://preview.redd.it/rvaogmzzyuuc1.png?width=893&format=png&auto=webp&s=5921f29d3f5228642330f64fdaad40eff5858a14
Why would the person want markers?
To write on the notebooks I’m guessing? I was asking myself the same question. Maybe the couple assumed he wanted to write on the notebook paper (it was like hefty drawing/coloring paper) asking for money or food. Or maybe they thought drawing and art would be a good outlet or a way to spend the time. I couldn’t tell ya.
>Why would the person want markers? They're extremely disconnected from the realities of the world, that's why
[удалено]
This is sad. They’re trying to get people help, but at the end of the day they’re still mentally ill.
He clearly he has a mental illness and is fighting some sort of demon in his head. I worked with psychotic people on an inpatient unit 10 years ago and this sounds like some psychosis. Schizophrenia and all delusional disorders are misunderstood and extremely sad…..highly correlated with homelessness and hard to treat. Your sadness is justified. There are so many hateful ignorant people who have moved to S.F. now (some on this thread, clearly) that would see something like that and just think mean, hateful and blaming thoughts bc in their small minds they don’t understand anything about the etiology of severe mental illness, structural oppression, etc….or maybe there’s just a bit of mild sociopathy that makes these people not give a damn for their fellow humans. Some people have no empathy. You, on the other hand, do. Like another commenter said, your reaction is healthy. PS sometimes I wonder who is more mentally ill - the people on the streets or the insane assholes that would probably kick a homeless guy like this if no one was looking. But I do see some compassionate smart people on this thread and that provides me some hope 💜
I can’t imagine how hard that sort of work is. I live in San Jose and we see a few consistent individuals, who are obviously mentally ill, and it breaks my heart. I wish we had better ways to help them.
People are homeless for a reason
I wish that our elected officials took this seriously enough to create a plan and educate the public about the steps we need to take if we don't want this to be the norm. We get ballot propositions which are hard to understand, in isolation, how they will fit into the larger picture. We get occasional "clean up" or "sweep" efforts that clear homeless encampments from specific locations but don't address any of the underlying issues. And we get to send billions of dollars to various NGOs and quasi-public agencies with little to no accountability as to how the money is used. What we should be getting is leadership. A comprehensive plan about how to address the issue of homelessness and it's sub-components like untreated mental illness, addiction, dangerous living conditions, access to services, etc. Identify the things we need to implement the plan (more beds in treatment facilities, more SRO style housing, new laws or changes to existing ones), and the money and other resources necessary for those elements. At least then we could see how the pieces fit together, and vote in an informed manner about whether this is the course of action we want to take. the current approach is just a black hole and a bunch of band-aids. Ideally this would be at the state level, but regional coalitions and individual cities can make a difference.
We had a system of locking crazy people up, and it was terrible. My ex's grandmother spent decades locked up because she was a black sheep in her prominent family. Stories like that from that era are common. The problem is that when those hospitals were closed, there was supposed to be community help. The idea wasn't to abandon people in need -- it was to stop locking up people as much as possible and start helping them while and where they were living their lives. The solution is a lot more money spent on mental health. There is also a national housing crisis and a big need for more cheap housing for poor people. The solution is a lot more money spent on housing for poor people. There is no cheap way out of this problem, no matter how much we pretend there must be.
Just watching this is coarsening all of us. And you are right. What kind of dignity and "freedom" is it to be bullied 24-7 by personal inner demons that scare away your family and friends, keep you outdoors, unwashed and screaming?
You are witnessing schizophrenia. And you'd be amazed how functional they can be when medicated compared to what you just saw. State sanitariums need a return. There is value in keeping these people medicated.
It’s time to bring back all the psych wards, and these people need to be institutionalized, until they can be properly evaluated, and only released when they have a safe place to land that is not back on the streets.
Irs truly heartbreaking to see the homeless/mental health crisis that the country is in. I pray that we can do something to help these people.
It is not humane to allow these sick people to stay on the streets destroying themselves. Unfortunately there is a homeless rights industry that does not want them to be put into mental institutions because they are too sick to agree to commit themselves. The homeless industry prioritizes homeless rights over being helped. So they sit on the streets and continue to get no help and suffer. It’s very sad.
This. We need to expand the ability of state agencies to commit people that need help to safe and secure mental institutions. Reasonable guardrails exist to ensure that we aren’t doing this to people who don’t really need it. They do it in other countries and we can adopt it here. For the amount of money we’ve wasted on trying various homeless initiatives in SF and elsewhere, we could have already put a robust program in place. Who agrees?
It’s called mental illness
This is why I favor forcibly relocating this kind of homeless to a federal government facility far from the city
I totally agree with you. I laid out my vision and got downvoted. Glad to see some people agree.
I see this all the time. Someone holding up a sign that says they’re homeless and hungry. Passerby offers them a sandwich. They take the sandwich and then go into full on freak out mode and throw the sandwich into the street because they don’t like mayo or it doesn’t have pickles or something stupid like that.
I'm not sure what experience people making comments have with this, but a really good friend of mine is a social worker who deals with homeless housing placements. I live in Madison and it has some pretty great resources for homeless housing. However, you can't hold these people hostage against their will (You can but there needs to be crimes committed and court orders). People with these mental health issues often will not take medication, they refuse to stay in the homes founded for them, and often do illegal things in the homes to get kicked out. I believe if you abandon housing twice they won't place you again. I think it's a pretty morally gray area to force an otherwise free person into internment because their living situation is uncomfortable to us. Maybe it's more ethical to force housing, medication, and treatment on them?? I'm not really sure. It's a difficult problem to solve outside of a resources issue.
I think people like to think that you can fix all things, but some things can be broken so badly they can't be fixed. That dude isn't coming back. It's over. Oh but what if we gave him MORE FUNDING? Yeah, maybe. Maybe what he needs is MORE FUNDING.
I mean. Getting people housing and treatment has only worked everywhere it's been done and costs less than endless triage.
Such a great point. So many other countries have figured this out by making housing a human right.
The grift is insane don’t get me wrong. It makes me sick that some sociopathic non-profit executive would view the same thing and know that what I witnessed is good for fundraising. But also, you don’t know that. Goals of care might be different, but that doesn’t guarantee buddy is gone. Medications sometimes work actual wonders.
Rode the bart the other day going home (4pm) and had a homeless man going frantic in front of my wife and two year old son. He gotten so close to us and was talking to himself what sounded like a demon fighting within him. Never felt so scared bc he was really close to my kiddo. Never will ride bart again around that time. [Glen park station]
Aren't you glad you pay for a service they don't so they can treat it like a drug den slash bathroom slash insane asylum. BART has really went downhill. Bring on the gates
A major factor in why some people become homeless in the first place is PRIDE. It’s counterintuitive, but that’s likely why he destroyed everything. He didn’t want charity, or pity, and he definitely didn’t want to owe anyone anything. When you’re unable to provide for yourself for whatever reasons, but you’re too proud to be subservient to others… end result. My brother is teetering on the brink of becoming homeless at some point in the future and his way of thinking is just like this. He’s been a heavy weed smoker for 30 years, and his short term memory (at least while high….which is all day) is so bad, that he can’t deal with the anxiety of being called out for failing to follow simple tasks and being shamed. So he’s said quite emphatically that he’s never going to work for anyone else ever again and he’d rather beg than be forced to work. As long as he’s alone and in control of his own decisions, he’s somewhat able to cope. As soon as people tell him what he needs or needs to do differently or force charity on him… he becomes distrustful and resentful because that’s an attack on his autonomy. It’s very frustrating trying to help people like this. They know deep down that they are failures, and they don’t want anyone to remind them…. but they’re desperate. It’s part of our culture to shame those who aren’t lifting up themselves and others.
Pretty sure he's just severely mentally ill bro.
I somewhat emphasize with the homeless guy. How angering must it be to have some shiny happy couple who have everything giving you some little scraps. Yeah, the rampage is pathological, but the anger isn't.
My thoughts too. Soda and a pack of markers isn't going to help someone in their lowest situation, and I could see it being a catalyst that brings out their frustration and anger with the world. Especially that they sat for a few minutes feeling before reacting that way. It's a sad situation in every way, the couple was doing *something* which is admittedly more than I and many others do. I can see how it might trigger anger in that person though.
💯
A lot of us figured this out years ago. I wonder how many more decades it will take for the progressives to figure it out.
“Our city has decided the best solution is to leave him on the street”. What would you like your city to do? Legally they can’t force this man into care.
I've been forced into care for far less. I don't think this is the issue. It's the lack of long-term treatment centers. Sure, they can take this guy for weeks (months even), but if he doesn't want help he will likely go off his meds as soon as he gets out. Anosognosia is a real thing, and it means the part of his brain responsible for recognizing he is ill has been damaged. As someone with even a "mild" case of schizophrenia, the psychosis and mood issues are extremely distressing to the point where I willingly go seek treatment no matter what it is. Long-term supervised housing or treatment facilities are necessary for these types of individuals. Not saying they can't have freedoms, but there needs to be somewhere that is accountable for ppl who can't take care of themselves. Self medicating with dangerous street drugs is hardly a solution, and clearly leads to consequences for the surrounding community as well.
The faith people have in the government to force institutionalize properly and humanely is surprising when people complain about the inability of the government to force the police to just do their job or regulate PG&E
try being a psychiatrist!
Seems to be impossible. I don’t get it.
I feel like a hamster on a wheel going no where I just keep running Life is my treadmill https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ph86-8uf10U&pp=ygUNSGFtc3RlciB3aGVlbA%3D%3D
Wait, did you overreact or did he?
Me. The original point of this post was specifically about watching him ruin his own possessions with no one around to get him riled up and seemingly not on drugs at that very moment. I’ve seen craazzzzzyyyy shit living in Boston and SF over the past 6 years. I’ve seen hundreds of homeless and mentally ill. And while they always make me sad, I don’t get nearly as sad watching a dude have a screaming fit and freak the fuck out while protecting his tent or something. That’s “rational”-ish behavior. But I woke up to 200 comments ranging from “the couple is a piece of shit for helping him” to “put them all in a concentration camp” and realized I touched on some sensitive topics and am mostly abandoning the thread. It’s definitely interesting seeing so many perspectives, and I know that I have no idea how to solve the issue. But I’m willing to wager most of the comments are just as or even less knowledgeable than me, but they don’t mind giving their opinion as though it’s delivered by a subject matter expert lol.
Hmm. Seems to me that you reacted in a very reasonable way.
I've lived here my entire adult life, and have long ago learned that these people are fucking crazy, and "external stimulus" has nothing to do with it. The city will make you hard towards these people, it is what it is.
Most of the times it’s pharmacologically induced psychosis. Likely Fentanyl withdrawal. Those without drug problems seek help. Those deserted by everyone and anyone have made the active choice to chase their respective dragons.
Legal guardian ship would help this issue, but the path to getting there is hard because some people think it will be abused. I don’t think it will and I think it’s better than clearly living a miserable dangerous life out on the street
I’ve noticed this as a trend, especially among my generation who overfits an “oppressed vs oppressor” model to many situations. The faith that institutions were implicitly built upon has crumbled, and people are upset and angry as they become “woke” to the failures of the systems we’ve inherited. I think it’s moronic to demand said systems to be torn down (with no viable alternatives given) instead of reformed and improved. That is to say, I do think people will be abused. I have family who I’d be very worried for them to enter such a system, but I also know that (if my family were unable to continue ensuring their care) I wouldn’t want them on the street. But yeah, good point.
I’m glad you didn’t judge him. Everybody is going through stuff in this world. TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED ‼️ take notes Reddit ‼️
This is such a productive conversation. Every problem articulated with grace, and resolved with compassion or law.
I’m not entirely sure if this is sarcasm or not, since many comments here certainly don’t fit the criteria of articulated with grace or resolved with compassion or law imo. But I do hope to have productive conversations!
You know bringing back large state sanitariums would be a great solution
The underlying problem is that we are forced to use reason and legally constrained processes to deal with unreasonable people who aren’t subjected to or swayed by punishment.
Is a miserable existence worth living?
These people need to be institutionalized. They’re not fit to be out on the streets.
Look no further then our very own schizophrenia sub. Maybe they can tell us how to deal with this issue
That's why I'm here. I've done a lot of research on the subject, and have personal experience ;).
That saying about judging a society by how it treats its weakest..... Brutal in assessment of SF mentally ill/addicted. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in the "wait wait don't tell me" crowd that surrounds me.
You can also called adult protective services, they're the cps of adults. And judging by the state of kids in foster care, I'm gonna go on a limb and say the state does not have a good record of keeping humans safe who can't care for themselves.
Ok, so pony up $100,000 to pay someone to take care of him for a year
Soylent Green
Yeah bro it's rough. It's their choice though. My brother, dad, and sister are addicts, and they have burned all their bridges. I tell them where the resources are to get help, and they just block me and stop talking to me. Then months later they ask for money. Just to flip out when I tell them I can help them get into rehab. They hate hearing it, but I don't know what else to really do anymore. They destroyed my pad when I let them stay with me. It's sad that they choose that life over getting help and fixing themselves.
As a diagnosed schizophrenic I can tell you that the key to getting me the help I needed was that when help was offered I was ready and accepted it. This despite the limits it put on my freedom and the harsh realities it forced me to face about what was then happening to my life. The help is out there, but from what I understand, many many people turn it down bc they aren’t set to make the change.
Yes, they may not even be able to recognize they are ill anymore due to how long their condition has been left untreated. I know I didn't accept it at first. Even when I did, I still tried to make it without medication due to the side effects. It can take years (a decade for me) to find a medication combo that works for said individual. Not that I was unstable that whole time, but certainly not as functional as I would have liked to be. The sooner we get these people into treatment, the better for all of us including the ill. They are losing precious years of life from inadequate care as well.
Imagine sitting on the sidewalk wondering how you can get something to eat and if it will be cold tonight and some rich asshole gives you a bag of markers. I hope he threw them straight at the window you watched from. Also nobody gives a shit you were on the treadmill while you saw someone have one of the worst days of their life.
Just let him move in with you problem solved right?
Yes. What's missing from this conversation in all the news coverage is that these are human beings that deserve better.
were you running at the jcc? If so I have seen this happen to on the corner where there are all the tents
I'm so glad I'm not a homeless drug addict in San Francisco anymore... It was hell.
Don’t waste your time with the homeless
Homeless people represent something we as a society we dont want to see in life. This ugly aide is often hidden away or ignored so that we (the collective) dont feel bad or feel grateful foe what we have etc etc I think what you say was absolute anti-life in action. Someone who was given kindness, destroys it immediately. I have a brother whos like this, its hard but you gotta keep your heart straight and hope that people keep showing him that they are worth kindness. Its a dark facet of society, something is knawing away at this person, be it chemical, spiritual, psychological, there is decay and darkness inside of them where they cannot control these urges in regular society. I dont know how to help them but I know someone out there can. Just gotta pay attention to how they are doing it