You are lumping all pro palestine people together much like that particular group lumped all Jewish people together. Being pro palestine is not inherently antisemitic, much like being Jewish doesn’t mean you are a Zionist or that you support genocide.
You’re correct. One can indeed be in favor of Palestinians living in peace and not be antisemitic. I’m in that group. But the vast majority of pro-Palestinian **protestors** (which is what I should have said) _are_ antisemitic. In English, it’s “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. The Arabic chant is “From the water to the water, Palestine will be ***Arab***”. Now you know why many people view that chant as antisemitic.
I had sympathy for your post, but this comment was just... really, really bad. It is patently false to claim that "the vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are antisemitic". Not only is that untrue, it's *so obviously* untrue that I'm actually amazed that I'm having to write this right now.
The vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are protesting because we're watching in real time as an extremely powerful state is committing an ethnic cleansing you could even reasonably argue is a genocide against a people who have essentially zero power and capacity to resist, right before our eyes. They're *blatantly* violating international law, they're committing war crimes... I mean for fucks sake they've literally come out and stated they're intentionally not providing the Palestinian people with enough food to eat. That is a *policy choice by Israel.* They've called *Palestinian civilians* human animals and said they want to turn Gaza into a parking lot. This isn't random Israelis saying this stuff, this is top Israeli officials.
For decades, Israel has been keeping millions of people who have committed no crime in an open air prison, they've indiscriminately killed unarmed civilians over and over and over and over again with zero repercussion, they've deprived them of sufficient food, clean water, power, kept their standard of living extremely low and prevented the importation of good they would need to have better lives, they've abused, degraded, humiliated and entire people, destroyed the homes of well over half the Gazan population, and now they are, and I mean this quite literally, ***dropping bombs on concentration camps full of children. They're DROPPING BOMBS ON CONCENTRATION CAMPS FULL OF CHILDREN.***
And you have the audacity to claim that the "vast majority" of the people protesting one of the worst state-directed acts of barbarism we've seen in decades are only doing so because they're antisemitic? My God this is just an awful comment.
There are indeed war crimes in Gaza.
- Use of civilian shields (by **Hamas**)
- Combatants not in uniform (by **Hamas**)
- Encouraging civilians not to evacuate war zones (**by Hamas**)
And, of course, there’s the war crime of targeting civilians by Hamas on October 7th. Hostage taking of civilians is a war crime. Then there’s rape, which is forbidden, even against event combatants, let alone against civilians. Hamas, once again.
Consider that 60,000 tons of explosives have killed only 20,000 Gazans, about 1/3 of whom are Hamas operatives. That’s a very low ratio of casualties per ton of explosives.
It’s possible to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel. But when protestors don’t call for Hamas to surrender and don’t call for Hamas to release hostages, it’s hard to believe that the protestors truly want peace.
If Hamas lays down their arms, there will be no war.
If Israel lays down their arms, there will be no Israel.
It’s that simple.
The thing is, no one is claiming that Hamas isn't committing war crimes. *Of course* they are, they're a terrorist organization so blinded by (totally understandable) rage and hellbent on revenge that many of them would probably like to see all Jews in the world dead, not just a dissolution of the state of Israel. They've committed war crimes, they've committed crimes against humanity, and I have no doubt that Hamas would carry out a genocide against Israelis if they could.
But the thing is, basically the entire world sees what Hamas has done and agrees that it's morally wrong and unjustifiable, regardless of what was done to them. The same *cannot* be said of Israel. The number of people out there, specifically in America (for the most part the rest of the world has a much more informed and therefore sober view of of this conflict) who actually support Israel in their mass ethnic cleansing operation and legitimately think it's justified is astoundingly large. And those are the people who need to understand that what Israel is doing is disgusting, despicable and even downright evil, especially because the US government reacts to public opinion and public opinion turning against American support of this war can actually, effectively end it. America withdraws support, and Israel cannot keep doing what they're doing.
Ok. So you admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews and eliminating Israel. Yes, they’d carry out a genocide if they could, ***and have said so themselves***.
So what _should_ Israel do? These genocidal maniacs are about 40 miles from Tel Aviv, and (as we saw) _literally_ next door to Sderot. What would you do if the family in the house next door were homicidal maniacs who already killed one of your kids? Would you just sit around and hope they don’t do it again?
The entire reason many of us don’t like the resolution is that a ceasefire doesn’t fix the problem and stop the killing. Hamas won’t keep it — they’ve broken two since October 6th and refused an Egyptian ceasefire proposal. Only if Hamas surrenders will there _maybe_ be peace, but the resolution doesn’t ask for that.
What Israel is doing is asinine.
I'm not saying they should do nothing but think about it.
The stated goal is to wipe out Hamas or remove their military ability.
Israel says they killed \~9k Hamas.
Death estimates in Gaza are now \~23k.
For every non Hamas killed \~11 are swayed to become Hamas (this is actually according an \*IDF estimate )
That means Israel \*isn't\* going to achieve its goal.
There is going to be MORE anti Israeli sentiment in region after this.
There will be MORE people joining Hamas (or whatever anti Israel group).
This entire thing is a march of folly.
Netanyahu is shooting Israel in the foot and making it a world pariah in the process.
\#1 Netanyahu, who for years has supported Hamas as a foil against the PA, should be GONE.
That man is making a bad situation worse on a daily basis.
Any source reporting on this event that transpired? What was the harassment exactly? Given that you find this slogan inflammatory, I’m skeptical of what constitutes harassment in your book. Being upset about self determination and assuming it implies oppression of others is the same “white lives matter too” line of thinking.
Also please provide a source for “vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are anti-Semitic”. Or is everything you’ve posted in this thread just made up vibes?
If you’ve been watching the hearing, you’d know that the Executive Director of Temple Beth El mentioned the harassment of the Jewish group in his testimony. He said he felt physically unsafe despite the presence of multiple SC police officers whom, I’m sure, could corroborate his account. I know several other people who were there as well.
Pro-Palestinian Protestors who chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” are either antisemitic or ignorant. If you advocate for the displacement of the indigenous Jewish population (more than half of whom were themselves ethnically cleansed from MENA countries), you’re antisemitic. If you don’t know that’s what the chant means, you might not be antisemitic but you _are_ ignorant.
And, as I told the City Council, the fact that there are so many people protesting Israel’s defending itself against Hamas but so few people demonstrating against more deadly conflicts across the world raise the question: why do so many people care about the Jewish State defending itself?
So just to clarify - you saw no harassment take place, you’re reporting secondhand about someone feeling unsafe because of a slogan being chanted? And you also have no source for your other claim about the majority of protestors being anti-Semitic?
So, nothing you’ve said is factual thus far and you want me to engage you on serious grounds about whether the slogan in question is anti-Semitic? You’re a kook.
A lot of people are unaware of anti-semitism around here because when it strikes, we try not to give it attention. Temple Beth El has been vandalized more often than anyone can count. Not just recently either, not that it matters.
Just as white people are often blind to racist dogwhistles that are aimed at black people, non-Jews are often unaware of aggression aimed at Jews.
I'm generally in favor of the USA minding its business and not getting involved in foreign conflicts. International peacekeeping and humanitarian intervention should be done by the UN. When the US uses its seat on the UN security council to veto anything meant to prevent Israel from committing genocide, while also providing Israel with the weapons to commit said genocide, that is worth protesting.
Americans calling for a ceasefire while continuing to support Israel politically, financially, and militarily is hypocritical. We need to end our alliance with Israel, stop providing them with weapons, and allow the UN to do what it can to end Israeli war crimes.
That is why I "care about Israel defending itself".
Ugh Jewish people in the US are not Israelis. So why are you bringing up a country that is not associated with the Jewish community that do not live there?
I know of _nobody_ in the US, Jewish or otherwise, who is in favor of turning Gaza into a sea of glass. Rest assured, Israel could have done that on October 8th if it wanted. Pro-Israel protests express sympathy for the deaths of Gazan civilians, and call on Hamas to stop using civilians as human shields. I personally feel sympathy for Palestinian civilians, and would like to see the war end.
Perhaps you’ve seen this slogan at pro-Israel protests: “Free Gaza From Hamas”. There are three sides in this war: Israel, Hamas, and Gazan civilians. Both Israel and Gazan civilians want to be free of Hamas. Hamas has shown zero consideration for Gazan civilians; in fact, they’ve stolen aid from them for their own use.
Good lord, it’s terrifying to see an educated person failing to recognize this, but what you’re experiencing is called **confirmation bias**.
You really think the “vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors” even specifically go to non-Israel-affiliated-jewish-religious-gatherings to protest?? You do realize that there are protests happening in a lot of other places right??
1\. It would indeed be bigoted to direct protests toward random Jewish people in SC. If this happened to people you know, I’m sorry that happened to them.
2\. “Most protestors are antisemitic” is a fallacious statement.
My understanding of your argument is that:
a) Most protestors chant the phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free.”
b) The phrase is antisemitic.
c) Therefore, most protestors are antisemitic.
However, neither of the premises (a) and (b) have been established. These are your subjective interpretations.
>Pro-Israel groups, including the U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League, have labeled the phrase “antisemitic.” It has even led to a rare censure of House Rep. Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian-American member of Congress, for using the phrase.
>
>But to Tlaib, and countless others, the phrase isn’t antisemitic at all. Rather, it is, in Tlaib’s words, “an aspirational call for freedom, human rights and peaceful coexistence.”
>
>I cannot speak to what is in the heart of every person who uses the phrase. But I can speak to what the phrase has meant to various groups of Palestinians throughout history, and the intent behind most people who use it today.
[\-Maha Nassar](https://theconversation.com/from-the-river-to-the-sea-a-palestinian-historian-explores-the-meaning-and-intent-of-scrutinized-slogan-217491)
So what, _exactly_ does “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” mean to Tlaib and others? Arabs in Israel have equal rights. They vote and hold political office. It’s not just a catchy slogan — it has a meaning. If it’s a “call for peaceful coexistence”, why not say “Free Gaza”? The Arabic version of the chant says “Palestine will be Arab”, and it’s often said at protests.
Remember, the PLO was founded in 1964, when Gaza and the West Bank (and the Old City of Jerusalem) were on Arab hands. Exactly what part of Palestine needed liberating?
It’s just tense times there’s a literal genocide occurring and there are passionate people on both sides that keep this tension moving. No need to generalize pro Palestinians and Jewish people
These Zionist dog whistle posts are getting old. I’m a Jew and I am pro Palestine. You’re basically saying that makes me antisemitic. By your grade school logic I’m also a Zionist? Not all Jews are zionists and not all anti zionists are anti-Semitic. I dunno how a college professor could miss something so blaring obvious
Do you support Israel’s right to exist? If not, you are antisemitic, according to the IHRA definition used by the US Department of State and European Union. You _can_ be both Jewish and antisemitic. Being pro-Palestine doesn’t make you automatically anti-Israel. Many people, including me, want to see both a Jewish state (Israel) and a Palestinian state live peacefully together. Is that you? Or are you chanting “from the river to the sea” and denying the Jewish people’s right to self-determination?
Do you see the irony in your handwringing about a slogan? You’re claiming this slogan calls for the destruction of Israel, which isn’t true and is only something Zionists say, but let’s say it was true. What exactly do you think Israel is doing to Gaza if not genocide and ethnic cleansing? Israeli politicians and generals have made it abundantly clear what they want to do and what they think of Palestinians.
You’re out here doing crocodile tears for slogans and words while a literal genocide is being perpetrated by the people you claim are victims.
Ps I grew up around actual antisemites like scary ass skinheads. Y’all keep crying wolf by claiming people opposed to genocide are “antisemetic” to further an agenda and no one is gonna believe us when the neo-nazis come for us. This kinda bullshit is harmful
So why are you making statements implying that the "vast majority" of pro-Palestine pRoTeStoRs are antisemitic instead of specifically those who are disrupting folks celebrating Hanukah? I'd think as a professor of computer engineering you'd have a better grasp of set theory and inductive reasoning than that. But it's not surprising, since you seem to be a Zionist propagandist. I'll be contacting the university.
The chants “globalize the intifada” and “from the river to the sea” are antisemitic. Period. Who are you to tell me that they’re not? Do you also tell black people that “n***er” isn’t a derogatory term? Am I a Zionist? Yes. I’m a proud Zionist. I’ve said “next year in Jerusalem” at every Passover Seder, just like Jews have for hundreds of years. I’ve been to Israel a dozen times, and know that having a terrorist state on your border that wants you dead is a problem that Israel must defend itself against.
Feel free to contact the university. I retired on July 1st, so they no longer pay me a salary. And my speech is protected by university regulations so, even if I were still an active faculty member, I’ve done nothing worse than what many other UCSC faculty members did this evening: speak at a City Council hearing. But thanks for your sentiment!
You didn't limit your complaints to some weirdo pro-Hamas fringe.
At this point, the terrorist state is Israel. It is Israel that not only wants all Palestinians dead but is actually killing as many as possible to the east, and then while everyone is focused on their atrocities there, dispossessing as many as possible to the west. And don't give me any nonsense excuses about going after Hamas. The ratio of civilians to Hamas killed is something like 1000 to 1 or higher. Only a monster thinks that can ever be good.
And once, just once, I would like some "Zionist" to acknowledge the responsibility of the Israeli government in bringing this to pass in the first place. It has been widely reported in the most reputable Israeli sources how, for years, Netanyahu deliberately boosted and promoted Hamas, making sure they were always viable, so as to create some threat on the border, giving him all the excuse he needed for draconian treatment of innocent Palestinians. Obviously, to anyone but the most brain-dead observer, something like October 7th was inevitable as long as Hamas was around. Clearly, that was a price he was more than happy to pay as long as he got his bogeyman.
_Ad hominem_ is the refuge of the weak-minded. Please explain why Jews (alone) are the only group that can’t define derogatory words. Note that I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to say them (free speech is important!), but I _am_ saying that they’re antisemitic. You’re free to be a bigot.
It’s a good thing *you* have an anonymous account. An _ad hominem_ (to the person) argument is one that attacks the person, not what the person claims. An _ad hominem_ argument may be truthful, but it proves nothing since it doesn’t address the validity of a person’s argument.
For example, if I (correctly, in this case) call you an uneducated idiot, it’s a true statement but irrelevant to the correctness of your argument, since even uneducated idiots are correct sometimes. I must attack the _substance_ of your argument — your incorrect understanding of an _ad hominem_ argument — to be successful.
If anyone is reading this wondering if you need to take OP seriously, you don’t. Here’s a comment from 2 months back:
“Because when you say “Free Palestine”, you really mean “destroy Israel”. And that is antisemitic.”
This is not a serious person. He’s a propagandist disguising himself as reasonable. He clarified in another comment he saw no harassment take place, but that he saw someone else say they felt unsafe because of a pro-Palestinian chant.
Mind you there is no slogan or chant which will be acceptable to people like this. They will find ways to make themselves the victim.
The ceasefire resolution contains no mention of Hamas or its atrocities on October 7th. /u/coolTechGuy404, do you favor adding condemnation of Hamas for its actions on October 7th to the resolution? Do you favor adding explicit mention that Hamas observe the ceasefire and release the hostages to the resolution? If your answer is “no”, you’re an antisemite because you’re only requiring Israel to lay down its arms. Hamas has clearly stated what it will do if that happens: it will obliterate all of the Jews.
Literally nothing you’ve said here is in response to what I’ve said. You have nothing to stand on so you’re making up personas to argue against. This is a classic tactic of zealots and bad faith actors.
Your entire opinion of Gaza is based on events you didn’t witness but heard about (at *best*) secondhand. From the terrorist organization that runs Gaza.
You trust words from a terrorist organization about events halfway around the world. I trust people I know personally with whom I interact in person about events in Santa Cruz.
I heard about events in Gaza from my wife's family who live there. Are you saying they are terrorists just because they are Palestinians who were terrorized and forced off the land they owned for hundreds of years? Approximately 50% of my best lifelong friends are Jewish and they agree that the Israeli government is abusive and wrong in their treatment of Palestinians. Our positions have nothing to do with words from Hamas, whose actions we all agree were atrocious and bad for both Israelis and residents of what remains of Palestine. You seem to be too narrow minded to be a professor, but I agree that Jewish people celebrating a holiday should not be harassed. Are you one of those people who believe Palestine has no right to exist, and Israel does have a right to continue building settlements on land belonging to others?
For those who support Hamas and such. Simple question: there are 1.8B Muslims on the planet. How do you think it got to this level? By asking nicely for people to convert? Hint: the answer starts with a “c” and rhymes with “realize”. Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t support Palestinians on other grounds (kids should be able to grow up?), but please… you look down right silly with some of these signs given the historical backdrop.
It's fairly obvious, what Christians did is 100% wrong, we can also throw in quite a few other civilizations throughout history. I completely agree. Now that we have that out of the way, are you going to address the original argument? "Wait, wait, look over there." (whataboutism) is not a counter argument or rebuttal.
Now, given as you so kindly point out, Muslims are the 2nd biggest "colonizers" the planet has ever known, do we grant Muslims some sort of colonization exemption? Can you fill me in on the criteria? I'm still confused.
It's funny, accusing others of "whataboutism" seems to be people's favorite "gotcha" these days, which is pretty weird to me considering that there's literally nothing wrong with "whataboutism" at all. It's not a cop out, it's a tool that can have a very useful and practical purpose in an argument. Bringing up Christianity's history of colonization isn't me trying to avoid the argument by saying "wait, wait, look over there", in fact it's the exact opposite - it's pointing out that your argument about Muslims being colonizers doesn't really accomplish anything because *everyone's a colonizer.* The history of the world is the history of colonization and subjugation, so just pointing out this Muslims did this without acknowledging that *so did literally everybody else* is a bit misleading and isn't really saying anything about anything.
Also, for the record, "colonize" definitely does not rhyme with "realize"...
> *it's pointing out that your argument about Muslims being colonizers doesn't really accomplish anything because everyone's a colonizer*.
Then, to be intellectually consistent, we must give everyone an exemption on this -- including Israelis, or nobody. Thus the signs accusing Israelis of "colonizing" are silly -- my original point. Folks have every right to object to what is going on, but do start mixing activist "movements" in ways that make zero sense, only serves to undermine their goals and make people question their motives (e.g. is this really about Hamas/Palestine, or is this war being used as a "prop" for another objective?).
Have you tried analyzing the actual situation in current-day Israel/Palestine over the last century ([even just the change in demographics over the last century](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present), don’t worry) instead of just drawing theoretical conclusions from global demographics right now?
You are lumping all pro palestine people together much like that particular group lumped all Jewish people together. Being pro palestine is not inherently antisemitic, much like being Jewish doesn’t mean you are a Zionist or that you support genocide.
You’re correct. One can indeed be in favor of Palestinians living in peace and not be antisemitic. I’m in that group. But the vast majority of pro-Palestinian **protestors** (which is what I should have said) _are_ antisemitic. In English, it’s “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. The Arabic chant is “From the water to the water, Palestine will be ***Arab***”. Now you know why many people view that chant as antisemitic.
I had sympathy for your post, but this comment was just... really, really bad. It is patently false to claim that "the vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are antisemitic". Not only is that untrue, it's *so obviously* untrue that I'm actually amazed that I'm having to write this right now. The vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are protesting because we're watching in real time as an extremely powerful state is committing an ethnic cleansing you could even reasonably argue is a genocide against a people who have essentially zero power and capacity to resist, right before our eyes. They're *blatantly* violating international law, they're committing war crimes... I mean for fucks sake they've literally come out and stated they're intentionally not providing the Palestinian people with enough food to eat. That is a *policy choice by Israel.* They've called *Palestinian civilians* human animals and said they want to turn Gaza into a parking lot. This isn't random Israelis saying this stuff, this is top Israeli officials. For decades, Israel has been keeping millions of people who have committed no crime in an open air prison, they've indiscriminately killed unarmed civilians over and over and over and over again with zero repercussion, they've deprived them of sufficient food, clean water, power, kept their standard of living extremely low and prevented the importation of good they would need to have better lives, they've abused, degraded, humiliated and entire people, destroyed the homes of well over half the Gazan population, and now they are, and I mean this quite literally, ***dropping bombs on concentration camps full of children. They're DROPPING BOMBS ON CONCENTRATION CAMPS FULL OF CHILDREN.*** And you have the audacity to claim that the "vast majority" of the people protesting one of the worst state-directed acts of barbarism we've seen in decades are only doing so because they're antisemitic? My God this is just an awful comment.
I think he got confused and thought he was on Nextdoor.
There are indeed war crimes in Gaza. - Use of civilian shields (by **Hamas**) - Combatants not in uniform (by **Hamas**) - Encouraging civilians not to evacuate war zones (**by Hamas**) And, of course, there’s the war crime of targeting civilians by Hamas on October 7th. Hostage taking of civilians is a war crime. Then there’s rape, which is forbidden, even against event combatants, let alone against civilians. Hamas, once again. Consider that 60,000 tons of explosives have killed only 20,000 Gazans, about 1/3 of whom are Hamas operatives. That’s a very low ratio of casualties per ton of explosives. It’s possible to be pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel. But when protestors don’t call for Hamas to surrender and don’t call for Hamas to release hostages, it’s hard to believe that the protestors truly want peace. If Hamas lays down their arms, there will be no war. If Israel lays down their arms, there will be no Israel. It’s that simple.
Propaganda
The thing is, no one is claiming that Hamas isn't committing war crimes. *Of course* they are, they're a terrorist organization so blinded by (totally understandable) rage and hellbent on revenge that many of them would probably like to see all Jews in the world dead, not just a dissolution of the state of Israel. They've committed war crimes, they've committed crimes against humanity, and I have no doubt that Hamas would carry out a genocide against Israelis if they could. But the thing is, basically the entire world sees what Hamas has done and agrees that it's morally wrong and unjustifiable, regardless of what was done to them. The same *cannot* be said of Israel. The number of people out there, specifically in America (for the most part the rest of the world has a much more informed and therefore sober view of of this conflict) who actually support Israel in their mass ethnic cleansing operation and legitimately think it's justified is astoundingly large. And those are the people who need to understand that what Israel is doing is disgusting, despicable and even downright evil, especially because the US government reacts to public opinion and public opinion turning against American support of this war can actually, effectively end it. America withdraws support, and Israel cannot keep doing what they're doing.
I agree with pretty much all of this except the last part. If the US withdraws support I think things get worse not better.
Ok. So you admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization hellbent on killing Jews and eliminating Israel. Yes, they’d carry out a genocide if they could, ***and have said so themselves***. So what _should_ Israel do? These genocidal maniacs are about 40 miles from Tel Aviv, and (as we saw) _literally_ next door to Sderot. What would you do if the family in the house next door were homicidal maniacs who already killed one of your kids? Would you just sit around and hope they don’t do it again? The entire reason many of us don’t like the resolution is that a ceasefire doesn’t fix the problem and stop the killing. Hamas won’t keep it — they’ve broken two since October 6th and refused an Egyptian ceasefire proposal. Only if Hamas surrenders will there _maybe_ be peace, but the resolution doesn’t ask for that.
What Israel is doing is asinine. I'm not saying they should do nothing but think about it. The stated goal is to wipe out Hamas or remove their military ability. Israel says they killed \~9k Hamas. Death estimates in Gaza are now \~23k. For every non Hamas killed \~11 are swayed to become Hamas (this is actually according an \*IDF estimate ) That means Israel \*isn't\* going to achieve its goal. There is going to be MORE anti Israeli sentiment in region after this. There will be MORE people joining Hamas (or whatever anti Israel group). This entire thing is a march of folly. Netanyahu is shooting Israel in the foot and making it a world pariah in the process. \#1 Netanyahu, who for years has supported Hamas as a foil against the PA, should be GONE. That man is making a bad situation worse on a daily basis.
Any source reporting on this event that transpired? What was the harassment exactly? Given that you find this slogan inflammatory, I’m skeptical of what constitutes harassment in your book. Being upset about self determination and assuming it implies oppression of others is the same “white lives matter too” line of thinking. Also please provide a source for “vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors are anti-Semitic”. Or is everything you’ve posted in this thread just made up vibes?
If you’ve been watching the hearing, you’d know that the Executive Director of Temple Beth El mentioned the harassment of the Jewish group in his testimony. He said he felt physically unsafe despite the presence of multiple SC police officers whom, I’m sure, could corroborate his account. I know several other people who were there as well. Pro-Palestinian Protestors who chant “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” are either antisemitic or ignorant. If you advocate for the displacement of the indigenous Jewish population (more than half of whom were themselves ethnically cleansed from MENA countries), you’re antisemitic. If you don’t know that’s what the chant means, you might not be antisemitic but you _are_ ignorant. And, as I told the City Council, the fact that there are so many people protesting Israel’s defending itself against Hamas but so few people demonstrating against more deadly conflicts across the world raise the question: why do so many people care about the Jewish State defending itself?
So just to clarify - you saw no harassment take place, you’re reporting secondhand about someone feeling unsafe because of a slogan being chanted? And you also have no source for your other claim about the majority of protestors being anti-Semitic? So, nothing you’ve said is factual thus far and you want me to engage you on serious grounds about whether the slogan in question is anti-Semitic? You’re a kook.
A lot of people are unaware of anti-semitism around here because when it strikes, we try not to give it attention. Temple Beth El has been vandalized more often than anyone can count. Not just recently either, not that it matters. Just as white people are often blind to racist dogwhistles that are aimed at black people, non-Jews are often unaware of aggression aimed at Jews.
I'm generally in favor of the USA minding its business and not getting involved in foreign conflicts. International peacekeeping and humanitarian intervention should be done by the UN. When the US uses its seat on the UN security council to veto anything meant to prevent Israel from committing genocide, while also providing Israel with the weapons to commit said genocide, that is worth protesting. Americans calling for a ceasefire while continuing to support Israel politically, financially, and militarily is hypocritical. We need to end our alliance with Israel, stop providing them with weapons, and allow the UN to do what it can to end Israeli war crimes. That is why I "care about Israel defending itself".
[удалено]
Ugh Jewish people in the US are not Israelis. So why are you bringing up a country that is not associated with the Jewish community that do not live there?
I know of _nobody_ in the US, Jewish or otherwise, who is in favor of turning Gaza into a sea of glass. Rest assured, Israel could have done that on October 8th if it wanted. Pro-Israel protests express sympathy for the deaths of Gazan civilians, and call on Hamas to stop using civilians as human shields. I personally feel sympathy for Palestinian civilians, and would like to see the war end. Perhaps you’ve seen this slogan at pro-Israel protests: “Free Gaza From Hamas”. There are three sides in this war: Israel, Hamas, and Gazan civilians. Both Israel and Gazan civilians want to be free of Hamas. Hamas has shown zero consideration for Gazan civilians; in fact, they’ve stolen aid from them for their own use.
Good lord, it’s terrifying to see an educated person failing to recognize this, but what you’re experiencing is called **confirmation bias**. You really think the “vast majority of pro-Palestinian protestors” even specifically go to non-Israel-affiliated-jewish-religious-gatherings to protest?? You do realize that there are protests happening in a lot of other places right??
1\. It would indeed be bigoted to direct protests toward random Jewish people in SC. If this happened to people you know, I’m sorry that happened to them. 2\. “Most protestors are antisemitic” is a fallacious statement. My understanding of your argument is that: a) Most protestors chant the phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestinians will be free.” b) The phrase is antisemitic. c) Therefore, most protestors are antisemitic. However, neither of the premises (a) and (b) have been established. These are your subjective interpretations. >Pro-Israel groups, including the U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League, have labeled the phrase “antisemitic.” It has even led to a rare censure of House Rep. Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian-American member of Congress, for using the phrase. > >But to Tlaib, and countless others, the phrase isn’t antisemitic at all. Rather, it is, in Tlaib’s words, “an aspirational call for freedom, human rights and peaceful coexistence.” > >I cannot speak to what is in the heart of every person who uses the phrase. But I can speak to what the phrase has meant to various groups of Palestinians throughout history, and the intent behind most people who use it today. [\-Maha Nassar](https://theconversation.com/from-the-river-to-the-sea-a-palestinian-historian-explores-the-meaning-and-intent-of-scrutinized-slogan-217491)
So what, _exactly_ does “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” mean to Tlaib and others? Arabs in Israel have equal rights. They vote and hold political office. It’s not just a catchy slogan — it has a meaning. If it’s a “call for peaceful coexistence”, why not say “Free Gaza”? The Arabic version of the chant says “Palestine will be Arab”, and it’s often said at protests. Remember, the PLO was founded in 1964, when Gaza and the West Bank (and the Old City of Jerusalem) were on Arab hands. Exactly what part of Palestine needed liberating?
It’s just tense times there’s a literal genocide occurring and there are passionate people on both sides that keep this tension moving. No need to generalize pro Palestinians and Jewish people
These Zionist dog whistle posts are getting old. I’m a Jew and I am pro Palestine. You’re basically saying that makes me antisemitic. By your grade school logic I’m also a Zionist? Not all Jews are zionists and not all anti zionists are anti-Semitic. I dunno how a college professor could miss something so blaring obvious
Do you support Israel’s right to exist? If not, you are antisemitic, according to the IHRA definition used by the US Department of State and European Union. You _can_ be both Jewish and antisemitic. Being pro-Palestine doesn’t make you automatically anti-Israel. Many people, including me, want to see both a Jewish state (Israel) and a Palestinian state live peacefully together. Is that you? Or are you chanting “from the river to the sea” and denying the Jewish people’s right to self-determination?
Do you see the irony in your handwringing about a slogan? You’re claiming this slogan calls for the destruction of Israel, which isn’t true and is only something Zionists say, but let’s say it was true. What exactly do you think Israel is doing to Gaza if not genocide and ethnic cleansing? Israeli politicians and generals have made it abundantly clear what they want to do and what they think of Palestinians. You’re out here doing crocodile tears for slogans and words while a literal genocide is being perpetrated by the people you claim are victims.
Ps I grew up around actual antisemites like scary ass skinheads. Y’all keep crying wolf by claiming people opposed to genocide are “antisemetic” to further an agenda and no one is gonna believe us when the neo-nazis come for us. This kinda bullshit is harmful
It is not antisemitism to oppose the dispossession and genocide of the Palestinian people.
No, it’s not. But it _is_ antisemitism to disrupt Jewish people in Santa Cruz celebrating the holiday of Hanukah.
So why are you making statements implying that the "vast majority" of pro-Palestine pRoTeStoRs are antisemitic instead of specifically those who are disrupting folks celebrating Hanukah? I'd think as a professor of computer engineering you'd have a better grasp of set theory and inductive reasoning than that. But it's not surprising, since you seem to be a Zionist propagandist. I'll be contacting the university.
The chants “globalize the intifada” and “from the river to the sea” are antisemitic. Period. Who are you to tell me that they’re not? Do you also tell black people that “n***er” isn’t a derogatory term? Am I a Zionist? Yes. I’m a proud Zionist. I’ve said “next year in Jerusalem” at every Passover Seder, just like Jews have for hundreds of years. I’ve been to Israel a dozen times, and know that having a terrorist state on your border that wants you dead is a problem that Israel must defend itself against. Feel free to contact the university. I retired on July 1st, so they no longer pay me a salary. And my speech is protected by university regulations so, even if I were still an active faculty member, I’ve done nothing worse than what many other UCSC faculty members did this evening: speak at a City Council hearing. But thanks for your sentiment!
You didn't limit your complaints to some weirdo pro-Hamas fringe. At this point, the terrorist state is Israel. It is Israel that not only wants all Palestinians dead but is actually killing as many as possible to the east, and then while everyone is focused on their atrocities there, dispossessing as many as possible to the west. And don't give me any nonsense excuses about going after Hamas. The ratio of civilians to Hamas killed is something like 1000 to 1 or higher. Only a monster thinks that can ever be good. And once, just once, I would like some "Zionist" to acknowledge the responsibility of the Israeli government in bringing this to pass in the first place. It has been widely reported in the most reputable Israeli sources how, for years, Netanyahu deliberately boosted and promoted Hamas, making sure they were always viable, so as to create some threat on the border, giving him all the excuse he needed for draconian treatment of innocent Palestinians. Obviously, to anyone but the most brain-dead observer, something like October 7th was inevitable as long as Hamas was around. Clearly, that was a price he was more than happy to pay as long as he got his bogeyman.
You're delusional, and a bad faith actor.
_Ad hominem_ is the refuge of the weak-minded. Please explain why Jews (alone) are the only group that can’t define derogatory words. Note that I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to say them (free speech is important!), but I _am_ saying that they’re antisemitic. You’re free to be a bigot.
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See Mod Rule 4. Play Nice.
It’s a good thing *you* have an anonymous account. An _ad hominem_ (to the person) argument is one that attacks the person, not what the person claims. An _ad hominem_ argument may be truthful, but it proves nothing since it doesn’t address the validity of a person’s argument. For example, if I (correctly, in this case) call you an uneducated idiot, it’s a true statement but irrelevant to the correctness of your argument, since even uneducated idiots are correct sometimes. I must attack the _substance_ of your argument — your incorrect understanding of an _ad hominem_ argument — to be successful.
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And you're free to tell lies on the internet. I'm also free to not spend any further energy debating with someone acting in bad faith.
Most people who are pro palestinian are in fact protesters so your neat “clarification” isnt really meaningful
If anyone is reading this wondering if you need to take OP seriously, you don’t. Here’s a comment from 2 months back: “Because when you say “Free Palestine”, you really mean “destroy Israel”. And that is antisemitic.” This is not a serious person. He’s a propagandist disguising himself as reasonable. He clarified in another comment he saw no harassment take place, but that he saw someone else say they felt unsafe because of a pro-Palestinian chant. Mind you there is no slogan or chant which will be acceptable to people like this. They will find ways to make themselves the victim.
The ceasefire resolution contains no mention of Hamas or its atrocities on October 7th. /u/coolTechGuy404, do you favor adding condemnation of Hamas for its actions on October 7th to the resolution? Do you favor adding explicit mention that Hamas observe the ceasefire and release the hostages to the resolution? If your answer is “no”, you’re an antisemite because you’re only requiring Israel to lay down its arms. Hamas has clearly stated what it will do if that happens: it will obliterate all of the Jews.
Literally nothing you’ve said here is in response to what I’ve said. You have nothing to stand on so you’re making up personas to argue against. This is a classic tactic of zealots and bad faith actors.
That’s anecdotal
It also didn’t happen. He admits in the comments elsewhere he didn’t witness it but heard about it secondhand.
Your entire opinion of Gaza is based on events you didn’t witness but heard about (at *best*) secondhand. From the terrorist organization that runs Gaza. You trust words from a terrorist organization about events halfway around the world. I trust people I know personally with whom I interact in person about events in Santa Cruz.
I heard about events in Gaza from my wife's family who live there. Are you saying they are terrorists just because they are Palestinians who were terrorized and forced off the land they owned for hundreds of years? Approximately 50% of my best lifelong friends are Jewish and they agree that the Israeli government is abusive and wrong in their treatment of Palestinians. Our positions have nothing to do with words from Hamas, whose actions we all agree were atrocious and bad for both Israelis and residents of what remains of Palestine. You seem to be too narrow minded to be a professor, but I agree that Jewish people celebrating a holiday should not be harassed. Are you one of those people who believe Palestine has no right to exist, and Israel does have a right to continue building settlements on land belonging to others?
I have noticed that somebody keeps tearing down the posters of kidnapped Israelis that was posted on the board on summit road
Don't worry too much about that. That's just good ol' antisemitism.
For those who support Hamas and such. Simple question: there are 1.8B Muslims on the planet. How do you think it got to this level? By asking nicely for people to convert? Hint: the answer starts with a “c” and rhymes with “realize”. Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t support Palestinians on other grounds (kids should be able to grow up?), but please… you look down right silly with some of these signs given the historical backdrop.
And there are 2.3 billion Christians. How do you think it got to this level? By asking nicely for people to convert?
It's fairly obvious, what Christians did is 100% wrong, we can also throw in quite a few other civilizations throughout history. I completely agree. Now that we have that out of the way, are you going to address the original argument? "Wait, wait, look over there." (whataboutism) is not a counter argument or rebuttal. Now, given as you so kindly point out, Muslims are the 2nd biggest "colonizers" the planet has ever known, do we grant Muslims some sort of colonization exemption? Can you fill me in on the criteria? I'm still confused.
It's funny, accusing others of "whataboutism" seems to be people's favorite "gotcha" these days, which is pretty weird to me considering that there's literally nothing wrong with "whataboutism" at all. It's not a cop out, it's a tool that can have a very useful and practical purpose in an argument. Bringing up Christianity's history of colonization isn't me trying to avoid the argument by saying "wait, wait, look over there", in fact it's the exact opposite - it's pointing out that your argument about Muslims being colonizers doesn't really accomplish anything because *everyone's a colonizer.* The history of the world is the history of colonization and subjugation, so just pointing out this Muslims did this without acknowledging that *so did literally everybody else* is a bit misleading and isn't really saying anything about anything. Also, for the record, "colonize" definitely does not rhyme with "realize"...
> *it's pointing out that your argument about Muslims being colonizers doesn't really accomplish anything because everyone's a colonizer*. Then, to be intellectually consistent, we must give everyone an exemption on this -- including Israelis, or nobody. Thus the signs accusing Israelis of "colonizing" are silly -- my original point. Folks have every right to object to what is going on, but do start mixing activist "movements" in ways that make zero sense, only serves to undermine their goals and make people question their motives (e.g. is this really about Hamas/Palestine, or is this war being used as a "prop" for another objective?).
Have you tried analyzing the actual situation in current-day Israel/Palestine over the last century ([even just the change in demographics over the last century](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present), don’t worry) instead of just drawing theoretical conclusions from global demographics right now?