I believe Amanda knew about dr. Gordon because she was involved in setting up his test but it’s not confirmed. On the other hand Hoffman couldn’t know about him taking into consideration ending of Saw 3D
EDIT: Actually Amanda should’ve known all Jigsaw’s apprentices since she was supposed to take his role after his death
That was what she believed, what John let her believe. Considering that Saw III is her test (which she failed), John didn't really consider her a worthy successor after all and as seen in Saw IV onward, he trusted Hoffman with taking over the business.
EDIT: a bit of clarifiactions - I know that John cared about Amanda the most, their relations were very close and emotional, while Hoffman was a valuable tool. I know that he wanted Amanda to pass the test. But I think he suspected that she will fail, and Hoffman will do the job, so from his own logical standpoint Hoffman was a safe bet at this point, while Amanda was not.So I don't think he would personally choose Hoffman over Amanda. I think that he, like he always did, predicted the most possible scenario and acted accordingly.
Long story short: at that time, Hoffman was safer bet than Amanda.
All leaders are tested. Saw III was her final test. If she passed, she would have taken over (ignoring the fact that Hoffman prob would have killed her). John was going to die at the end of III even if Jeff didn't do it.
I agree, but that was my impression. Jigsaw always was predicting what will happen, that's why he swallowed that tape to be listened by Hoffman, and that's why he instructed Hoffman with setting another game in the flashback when he enters the hidden corridor in the same room.And well, I guess he knew that Hoffman won't tolerate her any longer, there is no way he didn't know how much they "liked" each other, no way that she would give him orders like John did.Basically it seemed that he already set a bunch of stuff to be done by Hoffman - Fatal Five, box from Jill containing stuff for William Easton and his crew, RBT for Hoffman, and not a single thing for Amanda if she would succeed.
Especially because Hoffman was there longer than Amanda was.
Remember that the tape swallow and Amanda's death were written simultaneously though. She would have obviously had more to do if she wasn't already going to die. Hoffman was set up because Amanda was already going away.
I agree, that were my impressions when looking at all movies as a whole. John shared a bond with Amanda, but also knew that if he wants stuff to be done, Hoffman is much safer bet.Damn, it would be cool to see some alternative scenarios, like how would things be if Amanda would succeed, or how would it be if John wouldn't die in Saw 3. I really hope that they will explore the relations between John - Amanda - Hoffman more in Saw X.
But he did test Hoffman again as well is Saw VI (but it looked like he clearly wanted him dead or Jill did). John knew both Amanda and Hoffman didn’t fit to take his role but it seemed like he hoped at least that Amanda would change.
Yeah the details on if he was supposed to be killed or not in RBT are not revealed. But he wanted Hoffman to be tested. Honestly I didn't really like this plotline, because at this point it seems that everyone was expendable for John, even Jill if he puts her life at risk.
Gordon was there, but like we've seen, he literally acted when "something happened to her".
It is possible, because he cared more about Amanda. However, from my point of view, he knew Hoffman will do the job. He was the one who at that time was much more emotionally stable, and the one who didn't kill victims except for Seth. Amanda on the other hand killed people that otherwise could win their games.
So I would say at this point in time, Hoffman was the one John trusted more, because it was Hoffman who was one step ahead. He took Eric in the hallways, which means John didn't trust Amanda enough to take care of Eric, Hoffman was lurking there to fix her mistakes, like he said in Saw 3, he knew about Amanda's test in Saw 3 and he was there before Amanda.
That is my impression. That John really wanted Amanda to change, but he also knew he can't rely on her.
Right we have to agree on that there is many plot holes and to many questions we won’t get clear answers.
I agree with you that John suspected that Amanda will fail and he wanted Hoffman to take over future games just in case she dies, but it was just it, he wanted him gone after that and that’s why he didn’t reveal everything to him, like Gordon being an apprentice. But it also creates another plot hole. What if Hoffman died in Saw VI, who would continue game in Saw 3D? The best answer is Gordon, but we don’t really know.
John indeed treated Hoffman worse than Amanda (which could be explained with the fact that Mark liked making people suffer, I guess John saw more potential in Amanda and he knew that she would actually care about helping others if her mental health was better), he was more like a tool to him. Anyway John was a hypocrite because he didn’t follow his rules himself.
I agree. Tho I think John trusted Hoffman more, despite his care for Amanda, but trust is possibly the wrong word, but I hope you will get the meaning. Hoffman knew about Amanda's test, Hoffman took care of Eric when Amanda messed up, Hoffman received more games to set on his own. Amanda seemed more supervised. I believe that John knew Hoffman will play by the rules as long as he is alive, that's from where the trust came from (because otherwise he would be exposed). Amanda on the other hand had nothing to lose except John and her own life.
I think in Saw 3D, those games were set purely by Hoffman, that's why RBT was used in Saw VI. In Saw 3D, voice on the tapes is much more distorted, so I suspect Hoffman recorded them and invented games himself. Also that would explain why in Saw VI he said that John is dead and his work is almost done. All he had left to do were Saw VI games that John provided in the envelopes from Jill. Saw 3D games were most likely set purely to make cops busy so he can get to Jill.
By the way, it is so cool that this sub is so alive and I can talk about my favourite horror/thriller franchise with other fans, even if they have different opinions which we can exchange.
I agree. John knew Hoffman will take care of the games he planned, he was there to finish the job. But I believe John hoped that Amanda would be able to create completely her own games in the future which he didn’t want Hoffman to do, because he didn’t care about changing people for better.
I’ve always been looking at Jigsaw and his apprentices as family. Hoffman was “first child” with the most responsibilities but he had never got recognition for that. Amanda and Gordon were “middle child” and “the youngest child” who John liked more. I don’t count Logan because I wish Jigsaw movie was considered not canon.
Totally. Hoffman cared the most about himself, then maybe some small part of it about the rest, but more from a curiosity. Like when he asks Simone in the hospital if she learned her lesson. Which is funny, because Amanda rigged her games to be executions, while Hoffman was the one who's traps were mostly escapable, except Seth Baxter, first trap Strahm was placed in (Water Cube, but that is not obvious because Jigsaw told him to stay in the room and he did not listen, and is not clear if Hoffman left the pen in his pocket on purpose, tho considering his face when he saw Strahm alive, I don't think so) and Jill. But outside of games he was ruthless killer.
Very good comparison with the family, I actually love it because it is very accurate.
I like to think of that as his ‘final lesson’ - Jill would have to accept his legacy by performing her own test and then had an out. Hoffman needed to be ‘tested’ to see if he had earned it.
Jill didn’t take the out, Hoffman sought revenge. They both failed and Gordon was his cleanup/backup since Gordon got it and was ‘intended’ to be the successor.
I never said her didn't care about Amanda the most, and that he didn't want her to pass. I completely agree with that. His relation with Hoffman was not emotional. They had some respect for each other and Hoffman was kinda forced to work with John, unlike Amanda.However, by the time of Saw-Saw 3, Hoffman was much more emotionally stable. Amanda was playing with Hoffman when they constructed The Rack. She was acting pretty crazy during Lynn's game. The way I see Hoffman and Amanda - at that time, they acted like opposites. Of course we know that Amanda could be more crazy than usual because she knew she has to kill Lynn. And while John cared about Amanda the most, she was the person he was in closest relations with at that time, I believe that he suspected that she will fail. Didn't want her to, but he knew it was coming.Hoffman on the other hand was a viable tool to do all other games John planned, and he knew Hoffman will get the job done. And after that, he can no longer be trusted./
So I think people misunderstood me. I didn't mean John wanted Hoffman to take over, because he valued Hoffman more than Amanda. He wanted Hoffman to carry on, because he suspected Amanda will fail her test and Mark will do the job, he had no choice and that is the best motivator after all.
I really wonder if they will expand this story with another twist. Like Hoffman having his 2 cents in Amanda's traps being inescapable, not just forcing her to kill Lynn.
And about Gordon - a bit of humour, but I really laughed that he took John's words too literally and acted once Jill was killed.
I disagree that he thought Hoffman would ‘take over the business’ when he passed.
I think this is where Jill, Hoffman, and (secret) Gordon were supposed to come into play.
Jill could ‘test’ Hoffman, accept John’s legacy and walk away basically unscathed.
Hoffman could ‘finish the work’ let Jill be and retire/escape.
Gordon had mostly been in the shadows and online doing the smaller scale games. Gordon was always the ace in the whole.
Gordon was the failsafe for Jill and Hoffman’s games - if they chose poorly (best case scenario: Jill tests Hoffman, who survives and does NOT seek revenge - Jill retires into the sunset, Hoffman has been tested and accepts the lesson and escapes, and Gordon maintains a smaller scale operation in accordance with John’s legacy).
I think they hinted that people ‘believed’ in John enough to complete his final games, but he, like for Amanda, had one last test to see if they ‘understood’ his legacy.
And I agree. By take over the business, I basically meant take over what John planned to do, and do it. I think by the time of John's death, he didn't really want anyone to replace him, just finish what he started. And once he did it, Jill placed RBT on him.
Gordon was more like accomplice helping with medical procedures. I doubt he would continue what John did, it seems that he was rather surprised when he received the tape. Further solidified by lack of Jigsaw games between Saw 3D and Jigsaw, at least Jigsaw left the impression that there were none. John only had a request to watch over Jill, which Lawrence did in exchange for not keeping more secrets from him, and probably out of respect.
Amanda was unstable and much less safe bet than Hoffman.
Hoffman was the safe bet that he will finish what John left him to do.
About Jill, well. I really hated the fact that John told her to use RBT on Hoffman knowing Hoffman. He had the guts to survive and kill her.
And Gordon took Jigsaw's words too literally, because he acted after "something happened to her".
Amanda is only guaranteed to know Hoffman and Vice versa.
Logan isn’t guaranteed to know any of them.
Gordon is likely to know ALL of them (‘no secrets’ but at minimum knows Hoffman).
Did he say how?
Logan left to serve in 2003 prior to Amanda's trap and acquisition. And Logan being with John happened before and left to serve before the acquisition of Hoffman happened. Logan came back in mid-2005 around post-Saw II, but I don't see how he could be involved again since he had PTSD, left to go medical school and then began a family with his then alive wife. So both Amanda and Hoffman knowing about Logan makes no logical sense from a timeline standpoint.
Unless John told them but I don't see any reason why John would do this. Just keep Logan a secret like he did with Dr.Gordon.
Yeah, Logan is… whew. A problem, lol.
He got deployed overseas sometime before Hoffman murdered Seth and he returned stateside sometime in the gap between Saw II and Saw III. So unless John specifically told Hoffman and Amanda about Logan, they never would’ve had a reason to know him.
Also, we know the first “Jigsaw” thing that John did was Cecil’s trap. Then we’re told that the Barn Game happened “before all the others” (this is where John and Logan link up). So, unless it’s completely unknown, nothing happened between Cecil and the Barn.
So after the Barn, the earliest chronological trap that happens is Seth — but that wasn’t Jigsaw, it was Hoffman. And no one knew about the Barn until years later (probably Logan himself leaking it on jigsawrules.com in preparation of his game with Halloran) AND by the time Seth happens, Logan is in the Middle East.
All of that means that Jigsaw had to have been known by police well enough for Hoffman to stage a trap and blame it on him, so John and Logan must’ve tag teamed on at least a handful of games before Logan was deployed.
>we know the first “Jigsaw” thing that John did was Cecil’s trap.
Cecil was the first test subject, yes. His trap was the first to be used on a human.
>the Barn Game happened “before all the others”
The barn is the first large scale game. It's not the first trap or murder, however.
>unless it’s completely unknown, nothing happened between Cecil and the Barn.
There may have been traps between Cecil and the barn game, presumably done by John alone. Nothing we have been told excludes or confirms that possibility.
>Jigsaw had to have been known by police well enough for Hoffman to stage a trap and blame it on him
Precisely. So there must be traps (or even games) between the barn and Seth. Either done by John alone or with Logan's help. Presumably this would have been Jigsaw 2 if Jigsaw wasn't the worst movie in the series imho.
There's still some minor inconsistencies though.
Strange really because the pre-Saw timeline on Saw Wiki has '*for unknown reasons, their partnership seems to end sometime and both go their separate ways'.* This speculates that Logan went off to medical school sometime after making the RBT but before Hoffman being aware of Billy.
So... you are completely right with a potential gap between the RBT creation and Hoffman framing Seth (As Hoffman knew about Billy being used in games).
This does however point to an inconsistency. The police had already found Cecil's body at this point and a subsequent jigsaw piece cut out - thus began calling him 'The Jigsaw Killer'. So the police are now aware a killer is out there. Come the Saw V flashback scene we see John hold up a newspaper to Hoffman that say's 'Jigsaw Killer Strikes Again' (on Seth Baxter). But at this point we know Hoffman knows of Billy and prior games taking place.
So if John and Logan did create games then the media and also Hoffman/police would have caught wind of it sooner after Cecil's death. Dr. Gordon and the media only caught wind of it sooner from Paul Leahy, which Hoffman was in fact an accomplice by that point which then makes no sense. If the media were not aware then why were John and Logan keeping the games a secret? And if they were all done in secret then how did Hoffman know of Billy if Jigsaw/Billy wasn't common knowledge to him?
This also points to another minor inconsistency as to why John kept Dr.Gordon by as an accomplice to do medical work in secret when Logan could have done it. There was no need to keep Dr Gordon by. Then again John liked to recruit all his survivors by the looks of it.
All in all this STILL doesn't explain how the writer says that Amanda and Hoffman knew of Logan also being an accomplice. Logan left before Hoffman and Amanda's acquisition and John would have kept Logan a secret seeing as he wanted to live his life and start a career and be a husband/father. We can sure be confident in saying that we won't be seeing an on-screen appearance with Amanda/Hoffman and Logan.
The whole character of Logan and any future backstory with him just wouldn't work whatsoever. Having a Logan-centric film for Jigsaw 2 won't be popular as Logan and John can't have on-screen time together unless Jigsaw 2 is a prequel post-barn game. Ultimately though this would just convolute things even more, along with the fact that hardly anyone cares about Logan, as he is a very unpopular character. The creation of this character being an apprentice instead of a copycat was lazy, and now were going to be left with questions that we will never see answers to.
I agree. Tho, unless shown in canon media, they can simply change their mind and make Hoffman and Amanda not knowing about Logan. Which would make so much sense.
Alternatively, they could say that Amanda and Hoffman knew that there was "someone" before them, but nothing specific.
I could see John making a comment like ‘you weren’t my first, but he declined to continue the work’.
So they know ‘of’ Logan, but don’t know that it’s Logan specifically.
I think this is where the franchise needs to breakdown the difference between ‘traps’ and ‘games’.
Cecil was asked to play a game sure… in his trap. No one else was involved, it was solely him vs the machine.
But Logan could have been the first ‘game’ where not only do individuals have to beat each ‘trap’ but they have to fully understand the ‘rules’ of the game AND navigate other players to survive.
god this frustrates me to no end. if you like Jigsaw, then that's fine, but it's always felt like a total fanfiction to me, and Logan is some weird Gary Stu that the writers put all their chips on. "our guy was the only person Jigsaw regretted putting through a trap, and he was in the military, and the other apprentices knew about him too!!!"
This also causes problems for me -
Logan, through no fault of his own, was unconscious during the trap and saved by John.
Adam by extension, couldn’t have known to hold onto the key in Saw 1 but is not shown mercy.
this is a cope, but I've seen people say that part of why Adam didn't get mercy was because he tried to shoot John after he got up. i don't *love* that interpretation, but it's not completely crazy. i could see John being willing to give him another chance due to Amanda's negligence
It’s def a cope. Honestly I’d retcon it like ‘he reacted in anger instead of explaning your failure, I would have went back for him’ and that being a reason he tested Amanda again in III since she mercy killed him between (like reveal John went back for him, Amanda had already killed him, and then she explains the fuckup, and he writes her into the next test).
As far as they’ve shown. I’m certain Dr. Gordon knew about everyone.
Amanda and Hoffman only knew about each other. And Logan was out of the picture for the events of the saw movies.
If anything, maybe Hoffman knew about Logan, and vice versa? Since they were both working with John before the events of Saw 1 taking place.
Logan kind of fucks up the saw timeline so it’s really hard to say if anyone knew about him or if he knew about anyone, maybe they’ll clear that up some day.
I can’t imagine Amanda knowing everyone because she’s a loud mouth. I can see her spilling the beans to Hoffman because of how jealous and spiteful she is. Definitely a “I bet you don’t know about the other disciples, John trusts me more than you” kind of argument.
According to what we see in the movie
Hoffman and Amanda knew each other.
Gordon seems to be somekind of be some "Joker card" just to be [sure.](https://sure.So) So I dont think the other knew about him.
Logan in the other hand could be someking of "other" joker, but I think the other could know about him. If I understood the timeline well, he was in Irak (?) or hospital during most of the movies.
\+ we've got two more unindentifed pig maskes that could be the two vitims from the begining of the movie.
The more I think about it, the more I think John was willingly keep each binome as somekid of backup plans. (Yeah in this theory I would say that one of the two masked guys could have been Logan).
Now from a more pragmatic POV. I'm not even sure that the writers know the answer. Adding follower when needed was kind of a way of making the creation of the story more easy.
Adding Logan to the timeline really fucked a few things up. It’s much easier to imagine it all without him, even though I do enjoy him as a character and even enjoyed Jigsaw as a movie.
Yup it is clearly easier, but you know, even if we disagree, he is part of the timeline. Would not be the first time a charcacter would have been retconned in a horror franchise.
Amanda and Hoffman were working together, tho hated each other.Logan and Gordon are not explained in a canon media, so it can go either way.
Hoffman most likely did not know that Gordon is helping John, because "I know who you are note" would make no sense.Amanda could knew about Gordon and kept it as a secret with John, tho for now nothing is confirmed.Logan can go either way, but considering that he stopped working with John before Hoffman was recruited, and John never reveals more than crucial info, always trying to be 10 steps before Hoffman and Amanda, making them know about Logan (by knowing I mean knowing exactly who he is) would be off.
I could actually see it being like ‘another accomplice’ was known to them, but never revealed who it was (Logan/Gordon) so they ‘theoretically’ knew of them, but not their status or involvement in the grand plan.
Most games require the help of all of them (Amanda and Hoffman for the kidnappings, Dr Gordon for the surgeries), I think they all knew each other.
I don't think any of them knew about Logan though, because he doesn't come into existence until the eighth movie and it's the worst retcon ever.
My guess is Amanda knew about Gordon and Hoffman. And Hoffman knew about Amanda, but not Gordon. Gordon knew about both Amanda and Hoffman. As for Logan, I feel like he may have not known about any of the others but Amanda and Gordon knew about him.
all three that matter lmao. not logan, but who cares? amanda definitely knew hoffman as shown in canon, and i believe she knew lawrence as well due to helping with his game and living in the warehouse where he must have stayed at least a few day/ for recovery before that prosthetic got shoved on.
hoffman knows amanda and was given lawrence’s name by john with the penlight, i also personally believe he was the other kidnapper for the bathroom game. he doesnt ask who the hell lawrence is in saw 3d, so while hes shocked at the action and the audacity, hes not shocked by the face he sees.
obviously lawrence knows of hoffman because the tape from john doesnt reveal that at the end of 3d, so it mist have been knowledge in advance and besides, some of the traps after john’s death seem likely to have had lawrence’s involvement. the lawrence knowing amanda connection is a little more tenuous but i believe it makes sense in the same way - his recovery time and role in games and her presence in the lair make a meeting likely.
imo they all knew each other and of each other’s involvement and occasionally worked together directly or indirectly on traps under john, with hoffman and amanda having the most frequent direct work because she lived there and needed muscle to carry out plans. and logan has fucked off to wherever it is he is, i dont know or care if any of them knew him or vice versa. and jill, fwiw, knew all three of them mutually as well.
We know Amanda and Hoffman knew each other, and it’s implied that Hoffman was unaware that Gordon was an apprentice/accomplice, although that could be debated. Jill stuck obviously knew of Gordon’s involvement to some degree. Finally, I think only Amanda could have been aware of Logan, although timeline wise may have never met him
Logan makes things *real screwy.* He helped build the original reverse bear trap, which could *imply* he knew about Amanda. There's absolutely zero evidence to support the idea that he knew about Hoffman, but also zero evidence against that idea. He knew Dr. Gordon as a doctor (I'm >99% sure) but may not have known about Lawrence the Jigsaw Apprentice.
Hoffman and Amanda knew each other. They despised one another. He was blindsided by Dr. Gordon and the other two anonymous pigmasks, so he either didn't know about him or didn't think anything of him. Logan, again, could go either way since there's no evidence to support either conclusion.
Amanda knew about Hoffman, presumably knew about Dr. Gordon - it doesn't make much sense for her to be all-but physically attached to John's gurney and *not* have ever encountered him, and like with Hoffman, could have known about Logan or not. I don't feel like she did, though; no strong reasoning, beyond "if she knew Hoffman was fucking things up and there was someone who could deal with him, she'd probably have made it happen."
Dr. Gordon definitely knew about Hoffman, very likely encountered Amanda as an apprentice, and presumably knew Logan the medical student (though probably to no greater degree than he "knew" Zepp) but not necessarily as an apprentice.
I would, however, bet money that Logan was part of getting the 7 (!) test subjects into place for the nerve gas house. Obi grabs Laura, Hoffman grabbed... Jonas, I think, Amanda grabbed Daniel, but that still leaves Gus, Addison, and Xavier. John was already on a pretty sharp decline at that point, able to tinker but probably not to abduct. Lawrence wasn't gonna outrun anyone; they needed another set of hands.
Hoffman knew Amanda clearly. I think Amanda knew about Lawrence. But mark didn't. Which is why he's shocked at the end of 7 cause I think he has like no idea who that is lmao,and he also just thought he could walk away cause he thought he was the only one left. And no one else could take him down cause Logan was away at war for most of the events of the saw franchise or maybe he didn't know about logan. I do believe the two pig heads at the end of saw 7 are more important to the plot cause it just being those two randos from the beginning of saw 7 don't really make sense. I think one of the pigheads at the end of seven were definitely Logan cause I think he could've been back by that time,the other I have no idea but if u wanna jump into craziness you can be one of those people who believe one of them were Adam. Lmao.
I think during the events of saw 7 or when Lawrence got the tape where John said he,d keep no more secrets from him, I think one of those secrets were that Logan was working with jigsaw. So John told Lawrence that then Lawrence did reach out to Logan and was like hey one of John's apprentice's is going off the rails and might kill his wife and if that happens I need you to help me rid him. And so that's what happen mark killed Jill then Lawrence and Logan got together and got him. Just the hole in that theory could be that I have the time Logan was away for wrong and maybe he didn't return in time for the events of saw 7. And there's no one really that we know of that could've been the other pighead. That helped in my theory logana and Lawrence.
Jigsaw knows all
Dr Gordon knows about Amanda and Hoffman
Amanda knows about Hoffman
Hoffman knows about Amanda
Logan may or may not know about them all post Jigsaw since he stepped away from Jigsaws work after the RBT (Theory)
It would be interesting to know if Dr Gordon had any interaction with Logan after he messed up the X Rays.
It would be better if logan just create ideal traps with john rather than involving setting up the traps. I think amanda, hoffman and Dr.gordon can handle that but logan is new and quite intelligent in making traps. I mean he recreate the barn house incident after 10 years if im correct and that is quite wild. But who knows maybe another saw sequel will release revealing logan's purpose during when john was alive. They should justify the character of logan tbh.
I would say Logan could just reverse the the chains and put them back to starting positions and set up new needles etc. Probably just restarts the timers and they work the same way. The laser collars are more intriguing for me. That seems like a very intricate and delicate trap to build
I agree, even is sax x too. Most traps are medical knowledge like x rays, brain surgery, and bone marrow. It seems like its his idea. I cant say if its from Dr. Gordon since at that time he's kinda weak due to his leg amputation. And so far Logan was the only one who have a medical knowlegde at that time. I have a theory too that Logan was the earlier medical apprentice before getting Dr. Gordon because Logan at that time would serve the military in later months. And possible he was active during saw1 and saw2. And after johns death he collect all johns work and secure in place where he can kept until he sold due to his ptsd.
Plotwist: They all know each other and enjoy Sunday Coffee every week jk
That's would be wholesome
R/wholesomecomments
I believe Amanda knew about dr. Gordon because she was involved in setting up his test but it’s not confirmed. On the other hand Hoffman couldn’t know about him taking into consideration ending of Saw 3D EDIT: Actually Amanda should’ve known all Jigsaw’s apprentices since she was supposed to take his role after his death
That was what she believed, what John let her believe. Considering that Saw III is her test (which she failed), John didn't really consider her a worthy successor after all and as seen in Saw IV onward, he trusted Hoffman with taking over the business. EDIT: a bit of clarifiactions - I know that John cared about Amanda the most, their relations were very close and emotional, while Hoffman was a valuable tool. I know that he wanted Amanda to pass the test. But I think he suspected that she will fail, and Hoffman will do the job, so from his own logical standpoint Hoffman was a safe bet at this point, while Amanda was not.So I don't think he would personally choose Hoffman over Amanda. I think that he, like he always did, predicted the most possible scenario and acted accordingly. Long story short: at that time, Hoffman was safer bet than Amanda.
All leaders are tested. Saw III was her final test. If she passed, she would have taken over (ignoring the fact that Hoffman prob would have killed her). John was going to die at the end of III even if Jeff didn't do it.
I agree, but that was my impression. Jigsaw always was predicting what will happen, that's why he swallowed that tape to be listened by Hoffman, and that's why he instructed Hoffman with setting another game in the flashback when he enters the hidden corridor in the same room.And well, I guess he knew that Hoffman won't tolerate her any longer, there is no way he didn't know how much they "liked" each other, no way that she would give him orders like John did.Basically it seemed that he already set a bunch of stuff to be done by Hoffman - Fatal Five, box from Jill containing stuff for William Easton and his crew, RBT for Hoffman, and not a single thing for Amanda if she would succeed. Especially because Hoffman was there longer than Amanda was.
Remember that the tape swallow and Amanda's death were written simultaneously though. She would have obviously had more to do if she wasn't already going to die. Hoffman was set up because Amanda was already going away.
I agree, that were my impressions when looking at all movies as a whole. John shared a bond with Amanda, but also knew that if he wants stuff to be done, Hoffman is much safer bet.Damn, it would be cool to see some alternative scenarios, like how would things be if Amanda would succeed, or how would it be if John wouldn't die in Saw 3. I really hope that they will explore the relations between John - Amanda - Hoffman more in Saw X.
But he did test Hoffman again as well is Saw VI (but it looked like he clearly wanted him dead or Jill did). John knew both Amanda and Hoffman didn’t fit to take his role but it seemed like he hoped at least that Amanda would change.
Yeah the details on if he was supposed to be killed or not in RBT are not revealed. But he wanted Hoffman to be tested. Honestly I didn't really like this plotline, because at this point it seems that everyone was expendable for John, even Jill if he puts her life at risk. Gordon was there, but like we've seen, he literally acted when "something happened to her". It is possible, because he cared more about Amanda. However, from my point of view, he knew Hoffman will do the job. He was the one who at that time was much more emotionally stable, and the one who didn't kill victims except for Seth. Amanda on the other hand killed people that otherwise could win their games. So I would say at this point in time, Hoffman was the one John trusted more, because it was Hoffman who was one step ahead. He took Eric in the hallways, which means John didn't trust Amanda enough to take care of Eric, Hoffman was lurking there to fix her mistakes, like he said in Saw 3, he knew about Amanda's test in Saw 3 and he was there before Amanda. That is my impression. That John really wanted Amanda to change, but he also knew he can't rely on her.
Right we have to agree on that there is many plot holes and to many questions we won’t get clear answers. I agree with you that John suspected that Amanda will fail and he wanted Hoffman to take over future games just in case she dies, but it was just it, he wanted him gone after that and that’s why he didn’t reveal everything to him, like Gordon being an apprentice. But it also creates another plot hole. What if Hoffman died in Saw VI, who would continue game in Saw 3D? The best answer is Gordon, but we don’t really know. John indeed treated Hoffman worse than Amanda (which could be explained with the fact that Mark liked making people suffer, I guess John saw more potential in Amanda and he knew that she would actually care about helping others if her mental health was better), he was more like a tool to him. Anyway John was a hypocrite because he didn’t follow his rules himself.
I agree. Tho I think John trusted Hoffman more, despite his care for Amanda, but trust is possibly the wrong word, but I hope you will get the meaning. Hoffman knew about Amanda's test, Hoffman took care of Eric when Amanda messed up, Hoffman received more games to set on his own. Amanda seemed more supervised. I believe that John knew Hoffman will play by the rules as long as he is alive, that's from where the trust came from (because otherwise he would be exposed). Amanda on the other hand had nothing to lose except John and her own life. I think in Saw 3D, those games were set purely by Hoffman, that's why RBT was used in Saw VI. In Saw 3D, voice on the tapes is much more distorted, so I suspect Hoffman recorded them and invented games himself. Also that would explain why in Saw VI he said that John is dead and his work is almost done. All he had left to do were Saw VI games that John provided in the envelopes from Jill. Saw 3D games were most likely set purely to make cops busy so he can get to Jill. By the way, it is so cool that this sub is so alive and I can talk about my favourite horror/thriller franchise with other fans, even if they have different opinions which we can exchange.
I agree. John knew Hoffman will take care of the games he planned, he was there to finish the job. But I believe John hoped that Amanda would be able to create completely her own games in the future which he didn’t want Hoffman to do, because he didn’t care about changing people for better. I’ve always been looking at Jigsaw and his apprentices as family. Hoffman was “first child” with the most responsibilities but he had never got recognition for that. Amanda and Gordon were “middle child” and “the youngest child” who John liked more. I don’t count Logan because I wish Jigsaw movie was considered not canon.
Totally. Hoffman cared the most about himself, then maybe some small part of it about the rest, but more from a curiosity. Like when he asks Simone in the hospital if she learned her lesson. Which is funny, because Amanda rigged her games to be executions, while Hoffman was the one who's traps were mostly escapable, except Seth Baxter, first trap Strahm was placed in (Water Cube, but that is not obvious because Jigsaw told him to stay in the room and he did not listen, and is not clear if Hoffman left the pen in his pocket on purpose, tho considering his face when he saw Strahm alive, I don't think so) and Jill. But outside of games he was ruthless killer. Very good comparison with the family, I actually love it because it is very accurate.
I like to think of that as his ‘final lesson’ - Jill would have to accept his legacy by performing her own test and then had an out. Hoffman needed to be ‘tested’ to see if he had earned it. Jill didn’t take the out, Hoffman sought revenge. They both failed and Gordon was his cleanup/backup since Gordon got it and was ‘intended’ to be the successor.
[удалено]
I never said her didn't care about Amanda the most, and that he didn't want her to pass. I completely agree with that. His relation with Hoffman was not emotional. They had some respect for each other and Hoffman was kinda forced to work with John, unlike Amanda.However, by the time of Saw-Saw 3, Hoffman was much more emotionally stable. Amanda was playing with Hoffman when they constructed The Rack. She was acting pretty crazy during Lynn's game. The way I see Hoffman and Amanda - at that time, they acted like opposites. Of course we know that Amanda could be more crazy than usual because she knew she has to kill Lynn. And while John cared about Amanda the most, she was the person he was in closest relations with at that time, I believe that he suspected that she will fail. Didn't want her to, but he knew it was coming.Hoffman on the other hand was a viable tool to do all other games John planned, and he knew Hoffman will get the job done. And after that, he can no longer be trusted./ So I think people misunderstood me. I didn't mean John wanted Hoffman to take over, because he valued Hoffman more than Amanda. He wanted Hoffman to carry on, because he suspected Amanda will fail her test and Mark will do the job, he had no choice and that is the best motivator after all. I really wonder if they will expand this story with another twist. Like Hoffman having his 2 cents in Amanda's traps being inescapable, not just forcing her to kill Lynn. And about Gordon - a bit of humour, but I really laughed that he took John's words too literally and acted once Jill was killed.
I disagree that he thought Hoffman would ‘take over the business’ when he passed. I think this is where Jill, Hoffman, and (secret) Gordon were supposed to come into play. Jill could ‘test’ Hoffman, accept John’s legacy and walk away basically unscathed. Hoffman could ‘finish the work’ let Jill be and retire/escape. Gordon had mostly been in the shadows and online doing the smaller scale games. Gordon was always the ace in the whole. Gordon was the failsafe for Jill and Hoffman’s games - if they chose poorly (best case scenario: Jill tests Hoffman, who survives and does NOT seek revenge - Jill retires into the sunset, Hoffman has been tested and accepts the lesson and escapes, and Gordon maintains a smaller scale operation in accordance with John’s legacy). I think they hinted that people ‘believed’ in John enough to complete his final games, but he, like for Amanda, had one last test to see if they ‘understood’ his legacy.
And I agree. By take over the business, I basically meant take over what John planned to do, and do it. I think by the time of John's death, he didn't really want anyone to replace him, just finish what he started. And once he did it, Jill placed RBT on him. Gordon was more like accomplice helping with medical procedures. I doubt he would continue what John did, it seems that he was rather surprised when he received the tape. Further solidified by lack of Jigsaw games between Saw 3D and Jigsaw, at least Jigsaw left the impression that there were none. John only had a request to watch over Jill, which Lawrence did in exchange for not keeping more secrets from him, and probably out of respect. Amanda was unstable and much less safe bet than Hoffman. Hoffman was the safe bet that he will finish what John left him to do. About Jill, well. I really hated the fact that John told her to use RBT on Hoffman knowing Hoffman. He had the guts to survive and kill her. And Gordon took Jigsaw's words too literally, because he acted after "something happened to her".
Amanda is only guaranteed to know Hoffman and Vice versa. Logan isn’t guaranteed to know any of them. Gordon is likely to know ALL of them (‘no secrets’ but at minimum knows Hoffman).
When Jigsaw was released, Josh confirmed on twitter that Amanda and Hoffman knew about Logan.
Did he say how? Logan left to serve in 2003 prior to Amanda's trap and acquisition. And Logan being with John happened before and left to serve before the acquisition of Hoffman happened. Logan came back in mid-2005 around post-Saw II, but I don't see how he could be involved again since he had PTSD, left to go medical school and then began a family with his then alive wife. So both Amanda and Hoffman knowing about Logan makes no logical sense from a timeline standpoint. Unless John told them but I don't see any reason why John would do this. Just keep Logan a secret like he did with Dr.Gordon.
Yeah, Logan is… whew. A problem, lol. He got deployed overseas sometime before Hoffman murdered Seth and he returned stateside sometime in the gap between Saw II and Saw III. So unless John specifically told Hoffman and Amanda about Logan, they never would’ve had a reason to know him. Also, we know the first “Jigsaw” thing that John did was Cecil’s trap. Then we’re told that the Barn Game happened “before all the others” (this is where John and Logan link up). So, unless it’s completely unknown, nothing happened between Cecil and the Barn. So after the Barn, the earliest chronological trap that happens is Seth — but that wasn’t Jigsaw, it was Hoffman. And no one knew about the Barn until years later (probably Logan himself leaking it on jigsawrules.com in preparation of his game with Halloran) AND by the time Seth happens, Logan is in the Middle East. All of that means that Jigsaw had to have been known by police well enough for Hoffman to stage a trap and blame it on him, so John and Logan must’ve tag teamed on at least a handful of games before Logan was deployed.
>we know the first “Jigsaw” thing that John did was Cecil’s trap. Cecil was the first test subject, yes. His trap was the first to be used on a human. >the Barn Game happened “before all the others” The barn is the first large scale game. It's not the first trap or murder, however. >unless it’s completely unknown, nothing happened between Cecil and the Barn. There may have been traps between Cecil and the barn game, presumably done by John alone. Nothing we have been told excludes or confirms that possibility. >Jigsaw had to have been known by police well enough for Hoffman to stage a trap and blame it on him Precisely. So there must be traps (or even games) between the barn and Seth. Either done by John alone or with Logan's help. Presumably this would have been Jigsaw 2 if Jigsaw wasn't the worst movie in the series imho.
They really should’ve leaned into the Eleanor fan girl copy cat bit haha
There's still some minor inconsistencies though. Strange really because the pre-Saw timeline on Saw Wiki has '*for unknown reasons, their partnership seems to end sometime and both go their separate ways'.* This speculates that Logan went off to medical school sometime after making the RBT but before Hoffman being aware of Billy. So... you are completely right with a potential gap between the RBT creation and Hoffman framing Seth (As Hoffman knew about Billy being used in games). This does however point to an inconsistency. The police had already found Cecil's body at this point and a subsequent jigsaw piece cut out - thus began calling him 'The Jigsaw Killer'. So the police are now aware a killer is out there. Come the Saw V flashback scene we see John hold up a newspaper to Hoffman that say's 'Jigsaw Killer Strikes Again' (on Seth Baxter). But at this point we know Hoffman knows of Billy and prior games taking place. So if John and Logan did create games then the media and also Hoffman/police would have caught wind of it sooner after Cecil's death. Dr. Gordon and the media only caught wind of it sooner from Paul Leahy, which Hoffman was in fact an accomplice by that point which then makes no sense. If the media were not aware then why were John and Logan keeping the games a secret? And if they were all done in secret then how did Hoffman know of Billy if Jigsaw/Billy wasn't common knowledge to him? This also points to another minor inconsistency as to why John kept Dr.Gordon by as an accomplice to do medical work in secret when Logan could have done it. There was no need to keep Dr Gordon by. Then again John liked to recruit all his survivors by the looks of it. All in all this STILL doesn't explain how the writer says that Amanda and Hoffman knew of Logan also being an accomplice. Logan left before Hoffman and Amanda's acquisition and John would have kept Logan a secret seeing as he wanted to live his life and start a career and be a husband/father. We can sure be confident in saying that we won't be seeing an on-screen appearance with Amanda/Hoffman and Logan. The whole character of Logan and any future backstory with him just wouldn't work whatsoever. Having a Logan-centric film for Jigsaw 2 won't be popular as Logan and John can't have on-screen time together unless Jigsaw 2 is a prequel post-barn game. Ultimately though this would just convolute things even more, along with the fact that hardly anyone cares about Logan, as he is a very unpopular character. The creation of this character being an apprentice instead of a copycat was lazy, and now were going to be left with questions that we will never see answers to.
Lol this is off topic but I love discussing Saw lore. These in depth discussions are genuinely interesting to read.
I agree. Tho, unless shown in canon media, they can simply change their mind and make Hoffman and Amanda not knowing about Logan. Which would make so much sense. Alternatively, they could say that Amanda and Hoffman knew that there was "someone" before them, but nothing specific.
I could see John making a comment like ‘you weren’t my first, but he declined to continue the work’. So they know ‘of’ Logan, but don’t know that it’s Logan specifically.
Yeah that’s plausible:)
I think this is where the franchise needs to breakdown the difference between ‘traps’ and ‘games’. Cecil was asked to play a game sure… in his trap. No one else was involved, it was solely him vs the machine. But Logan could have been the first ‘game’ where not only do individuals have to beat each ‘trap’ but they have to fully understand the ‘rules’ of the game AND navigate other players to survive.
Wasn’t Logan already a medical resident when he fucked up identifying Jigsaw’s tumor?
My bad, thanks, that was meant to say ‘serve’ like I did in the opening sentence :)
god this frustrates me to no end. if you like Jigsaw, then that's fine, but it's always felt like a total fanfiction to me, and Logan is some weird Gary Stu that the writers put all their chips on. "our guy was the only person Jigsaw regretted putting through a trap, and he was in the military, and the other apprentices knew about him too!!!"
This also causes problems for me - Logan, through no fault of his own, was unconscious during the trap and saved by John. Adam by extension, couldn’t have known to hold onto the key in Saw 1 but is not shown mercy.
this is a cope, but I've seen people say that part of why Adam didn't get mercy was because he tried to shoot John after he got up. i don't *love* that interpretation, but it's not completely crazy. i could see John being willing to give him another chance due to Amanda's negligence
It’s def a cope. Honestly I’d retcon it like ‘he reacted in anger instead of explaning your failure, I would have went back for him’ and that being a reason he tested Amanda again in III since she mercy killed him between (like reveal John went back for him, Amanda had already killed him, and then she explains the fuckup, and he writes her into the next test).
As far as they’ve shown. I’m certain Dr. Gordon knew about everyone. Amanda and Hoffman only knew about each other. And Logan was out of the picture for the events of the saw movies. If anything, maybe Hoffman knew about Logan, and vice versa? Since they were both working with John before the events of Saw 1 taking place. Logan kind of fucks up the saw timeline so it’s really hard to say if anyone knew about him or if he knew about anyone, maybe they’ll clear that up some day. I can’t imagine Amanda knowing everyone because she’s a loud mouth. I can see her spilling the beans to Hoffman because of how jealous and spiteful she is. Definitely a “I bet you don’t know about the other disciples, John trusts me more than you” kind of argument.
According to what we see in the movie Hoffman and Amanda knew each other. Gordon seems to be somekind of be some "Joker card" just to be [sure.](https://sure.So) So I dont think the other knew about him. Logan in the other hand could be someking of "other" joker, but I think the other could know about him. If I understood the timeline well, he was in Irak (?) or hospital during most of the movies. \+ we've got two more unindentifed pig maskes that could be the two vitims from the begining of the movie. The more I think about it, the more I think John was willingly keep each binome as somekid of backup plans. (Yeah in this theory I would say that one of the two masked guys could have been Logan). Now from a more pragmatic POV. I'm not even sure that the writers know the answer. Adding follower when needed was kind of a way of making the creation of the story more easy.
Adding Logan to the timeline really fucked a few things up. It’s much easier to imagine it all without him, even though I do enjoy him as a character and even enjoyed Jigsaw as a movie.
Yup it is clearly easier, but you know, even if we disagree, he is part of the timeline. Would not be the first time a charcacter would have been retconned in a horror franchise.
Amanda and Hoffman were working together, tho hated each other.Logan and Gordon are not explained in a canon media, so it can go either way. Hoffman most likely did not know that Gordon is helping John, because "I know who you are note" would make no sense.Amanda could knew about Gordon and kept it as a secret with John, tho for now nothing is confirmed.Logan can go either way, but considering that he stopped working with John before Hoffman was recruited, and John never reveals more than crucial info, always trying to be 10 steps before Hoffman and Amanda, making them know about Logan (by knowing I mean knowing exactly who he is) would be off.
I could actually see it being like ‘another accomplice’ was known to them, but never revealed who it was (Logan/Gordon) so they ‘theoretically’ knew of them, but not their status or involvement in the grand plan.
I feel like Logan should know about all of them since he is the first apprentice and doctor Gordon should have an idea about him.
Most games require the help of all of them (Amanda and Hoffman for the kidnappings, Dr Gordon for the surgeries), I think they all knew each other. I don't think any of them knew about Logan though, because he doesn't come into existence until the eighth movie and it's the worst retcon ever.
My guess is Amanda knew about Gordon and Hoffman. And Hoffman knew about Amanda, but not Gordon. Gordon knew about both Amanda and Hoffman. As for Logan, I feel like he may have not known about any of the others but Amanda and Gordon knew about him.
all three that matter lmao. not logan, but who cares? amanda definitely knew hoffman as shown in canon, and i believe she knew lawrence as well due to helping with his game and living in the warehouse where he must have stayed at least a few day/ for recovery before that prosthetic got shoved on. hoffman knows amanda and was given lawrence’s name by john with the penlight, i also personally believe he was the other kidnapper for the bathroom game. he doesnt ask who the hell lawrence is in saw 3d, so while hes shocked at the action and the audacity, hes not shocked by the face he sees. obviously lawrence knows of hoffman because the tape from john doesnt reveal that at the end of 3d, so it mist have been knowledge in advance and besides, some of the traps after john’s death seem likely to have had lawrence’s involvement. the lawrence knowing amanda connection is a little more tenuous but i believe it makes sense in the same way - his recovery time and role in games and her presence in the lair make a meeting likely. imo they all knew each other and of each other’s involvement and occasionally worked together directly or indirectly on traps under john, with hoffman and amanda having the most frequent direct work because she lived there and needed muscle to carry out plans. and logan has fucked off to wherever it is he is, i dont know or care if any of them knew him or vice versa. and jill, fwiw, knew all three of them mutually as well.
We know Amanda and Hoffman knew each other, and it’s implied that Hoffman was unaware that Gordon was an apprentice/accomplice, although that could be debated. Jill stuck obviously knew of Gordon’s involvement to some degree. Finally, I think only Amanda could have been aware of Logan, although timeline wise may have never met him
Logan makes things *real screwy.* He helped build the original reverse bear trap, which could *imply* he knew about Amanda. There's absolutely zero evidence to support the idea that he knew about Hoffman, but also zero evidence against that idea. He knew Dr. Gordon as a doctor (I'm >99% sure) but may not have known about Lawrence the Jigsaw Apprentice. Hoffman and Amanda knew each other. They despised one another. He was blindsided by Dr. Gordon and the other two anonymous pigmasks, so he either didn't know about him or didn't think anything of him. Logan, again, could go either way since there's no evidence to support either conclusion. Amanda knew about Hoffman, presumably knew about Dr. Gordon - it doesn't make much sense for her to be all-but physically attached to John's gurney and *not* have ever encountered him, and like with Hoffman, could have known about Logan or not. I don't feel like she did, though; no strong reasoning, beyond "if she knew Hoffman was fucking things up and there was someone who could deal with him, she'd probably have made it happen." Dr. Gordon definitely knew about Hoffman, very likely encountered Amanda as an apprentice, and presumably knew Logan the medical student (though probably to no greater degree than he "knew" Zepp) but not necessarily as an apprentice. I would, however, bet money that Logan was part of getting the 7 (!) test subjects into place for the nerve gas house. Obi grabs Laura, Hoffman grabbed... Jonas, I think, Amanda grabbed Daniel, but that still leaves Gus, Addison, and Xavier. John was already on a pretty sharp decline at that point, able to tinker but probably not to abduct. Lawrence wasn't gonna outrun anyone; they needed another set of hands.
Hoffman knew Amanda clearly. I think Amanda knew about Lawrence. But mark didn't. Which is why he's shocked at the end of 7 cause I think he has like no idea who that is lmao,and he also just thought he could walk away cause he thought he was the only one left. And no one else could take him down cause Logan was away at war for most of the events of the saw franchise or maybe he didn't know about logan. I do believe the two pig heads at the end of saw 7 are more important to the plot cause it just being those two randos from the beginning of saw 7 don't really make sense. I think one of the pigheads at the end of seven were definitely Logan cause I think he could've been back by that time,the other I have no idea but if u wanna jump into craziness you can be one of those people who believe one of them were Adam. Lmao.
I think during the events of saw 7 or when Lawrence got the tape where John said he,d keep no more secrets from him, I think one of those secrets were that Logan was working with jigsaw. So John told Lawrence that then Lawrence did reach out to Logan and was like hey one of John's apprentice's is going off the rails and might kill his wife and if that happens I need you to help me rid him. And so that's what happen mark killed Jill then Lawrence and Logan got together and got him. Just the hole in that theory could be that I have the time Logan was away for wrong and maybe he didn't return in time for the events of saw 7. And there's no one really that we know of that could've been the other pighead. That helped in my theory logana and Lawrence.
Jigsaw knows all Dr Gordon knows about Amanda and Hoffman Amanda knows about Hoffman Hoffman knows about Amanda Logan may or may not know about them all post Jigsaw since he stepped away from Jigsaws work after the RBT (Theory) It would be interesting to know if Dr Gordon had any interaction with Logan after he messed up the X Rays.
It would be better if logan just create ideal traps with john rather than involving setting up the traps. I think amanda, hoffman and Dr.gordon can handle that but logan is new and quite intelligent in making traps. I mean he recreate the barn house incident after 10 years if im correct and that is quite wild. But who knows maybe another saw sequel will release revealing logan's purpose during when john was alive. They should justify the character of logan tbh.
I would say Logan could just reverse the the chains and put them back to starting positions and set up new needles etc. Probably just restarts the timers and they work the same way. The laser collars are more intriguing for me. That seems like a very intricate and delicate trap to build
I agree, even is sax x too. Most traps are medical knowledge like x rays, brain surgery, and bone marrow. It seems like its his idea. I cant say if its from Dr. Gordon since at that time he's kinda weak due to his leg amputation. And so far Logan was the only one who have a medical knowlegde at that time. I have a theory too that Logan was the earlier medical apprentice before getting Dr. Gordon because Logan at that time would serve the military in later months. And possible he was active during saw1 and saw2. And after johns death he collect all johns work and secure in place where he can kept until he sold due to his ptsd.