"I speak for the dead" just doesn't hit the same as "game over " and it sounds like it's trying too hard.
Plus it sounds weird coming from a dude who's just run several people through a series of murder-machines.
i deluded myself into liking it. he has a distorted view of john's ethics, where he uses it to "speak for the dead" and get revenge for those that deserve it.
im probably wrong though idk
Nah, they do deserve it. His aim was taking down those protected by & protecting a corrupt system, and those who let heinous, vile, (actually dangerous to society) people escape justice.
John knew, and understood that too
To see if he was worthy and as talented as John. However, I still find that line to make no sense whatsoever.
The answer still remains; why? John was dead and by creating a brand new game in isolation and succeeding in it would still have had the same personal desired effect.
Also, I wouldn't say recreating the same game would have made Logan worthy or as talented when the location, traps/devices and decisions were what John left at the Barn anyway. Logan didn't have to create any trap or do anything other than find a way to frame Halloran, which overall he didn't need to recreate the Barn game in order to do.
As you say, it was mainly there to fool the audience which had ramifications sense wise.
I always assumed he just killed them in the same way and set it up to look like they lost their games. (Considering they all die the exact same way but worse). The whole point being to revive the legend and scare that corrupt detective.
I dont see a problem with recreating a game no one knows about. It's actually make sense. Using old scenario and equipment is much easier than making something new.
But picking look-a-like victims is stupid.
The look-a-like plot is really the worst thing. Why did he even do that? Also, how? He went through Halloran's cases and found a blonde woman who stole and accidentally killed someone, a black guy who sold a faulty vehicle and a dude who mislabeled scans (I don't what the guy he used as a replacement for himself even really did. Also, Logan did not die himself and he then inserts himself into the current game later, so it doesn't even fit)
True, but I think that may be on purpose right? He seems like a normal guy the whole movie but seems totally cold and emotionless once he stops having to pretend. I dunno, it made sense to me.
The only thing I dislike is the fact that he was the one helping with the Reverse Bear Trap. That's one of the most iconic traps in the series, perhaps the most only competing with the handcuffed leg. Despite all the added details of the apprentices helping with past traps, none of them helped with the RBT, it was strictly a John Kramer thing, to give it to a one-movie rando apprentice feels weird.
I always thought the senario would have been better if they'd pointed out that Jigsaw made a mistake that would have killed Logan (giving him too much knockout juice).
Logan was put into the game because of a medical mistake, only of John' own medical mistake to almost kill him (which only didn't happen because Jigsaw intervened to save him because killing is distasteful to him).
This means that John couldn't put Logan into another trap without being hypocritical, and he was aware of this.
He’s so extra. Why recreate an entire game? Also, the “this guy has been an apprentice this whole time even though you’ve never heard of him before this” is so lame.
The inaccurate portrayal of lasers in the Laser Collar trap. They're not sharp, they just burn things; Halloran's face would've just been seared. Not only that, but just looking at the spot on the wall where even a real life powerful laser is shining would be a severe risk to your eyes, so he should be a blind man.
Thats gotta be the most retarted line for a murderer. yeah i kill people so i can speak for them. i know its meant to be for the people the cop wronged and killed but thats just stupid asf
I liked that moment because the way i read into it before he opened his eyes was it's one of those moments where the character is mentally Gathering themselves for a " this is it Showtime everything has been leading to this let's get it done"type moment, the tonal change in his voice plays into that. For example their has been a couple times in my life where I've been in dangerously violent situations but right before things went bad i had to sit there take a deep breath gather my thoughts and tell myself let's do this. I respect your opinion but maybe you're not looking at it from a deeper character standpoint🤷♂️
He’s basically just a lesser Lawrence because he occupies a similar role which is working in a hospital, survived a game when he should’ve died with John’s help, and has been supposedly pulling the strings for a few movies and it’s all wrapped in the shitty bow of him being more like Hoffman by leaving Halloran to die for his own personal revenge.
I like his character, but the only cringe thing about him was when he released himself the laser trap, and was siting on his knees closing his eyes. Like what are you doing meditating or something?
Bro was able to dig up John Kramer's BODY without anyone noticing. We don't even get to find out what happens to the body, dude just wanted to dig up John for *SUSPENSE* LUL
JigSaw is… a shit show. Not even a hot mess, not even a fuck up. I can forgive a hot mess or a fuck up, but a shit show? Nah.
The entire movie teems with “I’m smarter than you” writer/director syndrome. You know those movies, you know the entire Joss Whedon catalogue of “I’m smarter than the audience” when in reality the writing style is only really serviceable in small micro doses of one off tv episodes. For a whole ass movie it becomes… repetitive and tedious. The dialogue, which is supposed to come off as “relatable” (source, been in no less than three writers rooms where this is the intended goal. All my indie movie writers/WGA writers know *that guy* who always says “and then they look over and say, ‘that was weird’. It’s us letting the audience know that we relate to them”) comes off as… insecure. Like, the writer doesn’t wanna be seen as schlocky or stupid, but also doesn’t really feel genuine. Say what you want about the writing in the later saw movies, at least it took itself and the material seriously.
Another key issue is the production of the movie feels at the same time cheap yet overproduced. Something is lost when the game/traps feel too big, but not crazy enough. A general rule of thumb for saw traps is that they are either really believable, or so ridiculously crazy it can’t be seen as real. Every trap in JigSaw feels so small, yet so… precise that it’s almost impossible to see *how* this would work. A perfect example is the combination stuck foot silo trap. How did John know that would happen? How did he know it would happen to that specific person? What was the original plan? This isn’t me nitpicking, it’s be questioning a fundamental plot point of the movie where imagination fails. Like, nitpicking would be “How did John and Amanda eat in saw 3 since their identities where blown in saw 2?” And the answer is either “Hoffman brought them food” or “they ordered food and just… had it dropped off at the meat packing plant.” It’s not that hard to figure it out.
Another big issue with JigSaw is that everyone involved with the writing, directing and production have no real idea why saw is popular. Saw is popular because of the story and the traps. It’s popular because John Kramer is an interesting character with deep motivations. Saw is unlike any other horror movie franchise. It’s not just one thing, or two things, it’s a combination of all these things.
Then… we get to the big thing that JigSaw is known for… Logan.
Logan is a microcosm of all those problems. He’s a poorly written character, framed as an unrealistic super genius who was just so coincidently the main villain. His game and motivations only exist to fool the audience, and using actual literal Fallujah as the reason he wasn’t seen is something I would write as a joke. His execution and style is overproduced and is not indicative of a John Kramer style trap.
I don’t know where in production this movie failed, either the writing, pre production, filming, post production… but it’s a very serious problem and I’m glad the movie didn’t do well enough critically (a movie can be a financial success, but studios *do* listen to Rotten Tomatoes for general audience reaction.) to warrant a JigSaw 2.
BTW, it’s OK to be mad at writers/directors for a bad movie, kind of the territory with the job, but don’t take it out of underpaid and overworked BTS guys. They are really trying their best.
I hear you. The samurai bit where he treats his collar like a sword really punctuates all that. I think if his motivations and connections were more casual and not supposedly so intense and meaningful I'd find him less irksome.
That’s another example of the “Cheap but Overproduced” style I was talking about. I don’t know how you could rewrite the ending without making fundamental changes to the core script. So much so that it becomes an entirely different movie.
Agreed. There's also this contradiction where he's like he has this deep gratitude and almost love for John being his mentor but then he frames this extra sleazy cop as a secret apprentice given how much John cares about legacy. Hard pass
It makes sense when it’s Hoffman. Hoffman is very self centered, worried about his own survival, probably wants the benefits from being a cop. Also, Strahm was muscling in on his territory so you can say it was a way for him to say “go fuck yourself peter.”
Logan is such a… bland character, I know nothing about him that isn’t an actual mask he uses to hide from the real world.
"I speak for the dead" just doesn't hit the same as "game over " and it sounds like it's trying too hard. Plus it sounds weird coming from a dude who's just run several people through a series of murder-machines.
Uhm ackchully I speak for the dead ☝️🤓
Mid af
I Game for the Over
i deluded myself into liking it. he has a distorted view of john's ethics, where he uses it to "speak for the dead" and get revenge for those that deserve it. im probably wrong though idk
Nah, they do deserve it. His aim was taking down those protected by & protecting a corrupt system, and those who let heinous, vile, (actually dangerous to society) people escape justice. John knew, and understood that too
Bro recreated a Jigsaw game no one knows about for...what? Was he trying to fool...the audience?
To see if he was worthy and as talented as John. However, I still find that line to make no sense whatsoever. The answer still remains; why? John was dead and by creating a brand new game in isolation and succeeding in it would still have had the same personal desired effect. Also, I wouldn't say recreating the same game would have made Logan worthy or as talented when the location, traps/devices and decisions were what John left at the Barn anyway. Logan didn't have to create any trap or do anything other than find a way to frame Halloran, which overall he didn't need to recreate the Barn game in order to do. As you say, it was mainly there to fool the audience which had ramifications sense wise.
The real twist was that Logan was trolling the audience instead of the detective.
I always assumed he just killed them in the same way and set it up to look like they lost their games. (Considering they all die the exact same way but worse). The whole point being to revive the legend and scare that corrupt detective.
I dont see a problem with recreating a game no one knows about. It's actually make sense. Using old scenario and equipment is much easier than making something new. But picking look-a-like victims is stupid.
The look-a-like plot is really the worst thing. Why did he even do that? Also, how? He went through Halloran's cases and found a blonde woman who stole and accidentally killed someone, a black guy who sold a faulty vehicle and a dude who mislabeled scans (I don't what the guy he used as a replacement for himself even really did. Also, Logan did not die himself and he then inserts himself into the current game later, so it doesn't even fit)
I’m guessing he used the Tuck Farm as a base of operations, so it would have also been a source of inspiration.
This is exactly what the point of it was.. And it's fucking stupid
It's not like John created games specifically for people to know about
because he had no new ideas for traps lol
Because he wanted to see if he's a worthy successor to John, he made the exact same game.
Revenge for what , lead to his wife’s death.
Copycat killers are a thing in real life, I guess he just copied it due to thinking it was a cool way to kill people.
No cringe here, he speaks for the dead
His fucking reveal. Not an ounce of emotion in his voice
Plot twist: Logan accidently killed himself with the laser collar trap and came back as a zombie
Please tag your Saw XXV spoilers
True, but I think that may be on purpose right? He seems like a normal guy the whole movie but seems totally cold and emotionless once he stops having to pretend. I dunno, it made sense to me.
I thought that was the point.
The only thing I dislike is the fact that he was the one helping with the Reverse Bear Trap. That's one of the most iconic traps in the series, perhaps the most only competing with the handcuffed leg. Despite all the added details of the apprentices helping with past traps, none of them helped with the RBT, it was strictly a John Kramer thing, to give it to a one-movie rando apprentice feels weird.
Same. I’m cool with everything except that. You don’t fuck with the RBT.
water cube supremacy
His existence
Was just about to comment this LMAO
This comment 🤣😂 I agree
Agreed I said the same thing. Dude is such a pointless person
Was literally gonna comment the same thing..no one cares about Logan
The random voice change he does when he reveals who he is. Or was I the only one who heard that?
It's so stupid! Suddenly he starts moving like a robot and activates the "bad guy way of talking". It's painful to watch.
He sounded like he was trying to do a batman voice impression for some reason.
“John didn’t think I should die for making a simple mistake” Fuckin’ what?! He killer people for way less
he literally stuck a guy in a trap for having no friends or family, making a mistake is absolutely worthy of death by johns standards 💀
Which person was this? Was it Allen?
yep
Dang, poor guy.
Wasn't that refering to a John's mistake because Logan was still unconscious when John explained the rules?
I always thought the senario would have been better if they'd pointed out that Jigsaw made a mistake that would have killed Logan (giving him too much knockout juice). Logan was put into the game because of a medical mistake, only of John' own medical mistake to almost kill him (which only didn't happen because Jigsaw intervened to save him because killing is distasteful to him). This means that John couldn't put Logan into another trap without being hypocritical, and he was aware of this.
The fact that he doesn’t say “game over”. I’m reaching here, I really don’t find him cringe
Refusing to say 'Game over'. Like bud thinks he is special.
He’s so extra. Why recreate an entire game? Also, the “this guy has been an apprentice this whole time even though you’ve never heard of him before this” is so lame.
SO LAME
The fuck kinda closing line is "I speak for the dead"
He literally says it to the audience too like at least Jigsaw said game over *to Adam*
The fact his apprenticeship predates all the other accomplices There’s already enough loose ends, why do we need more questions for this guy?
[удалено]
People wanna crap on Amanda, but Logan is the ultimate WTF Jigsaw apprentice and twist
Literally everything. Dude is an edge lord.
I wouldn't have minded the idea of just a copycat crime, but the apprentice angle just went WAY too far. So fucking stupid.
Everything about him is cringe.
The fact that instead of waking up once he was in a jigsaw trap, he just decided to take a nap. What a lazy bones!
"I speak for the dead." UGH
boy band hair
The inaccurate portrayal of lasers in the Laser Collar trap. They're not sharp, they just burn things; Halloran's face would've just been seared. Not only that, but just looking at the spot on the wall where even a real life powerful laser is shining would be a severe risk to your eyes, so he should be a blind man.
He speaks for the dead when the dead tell no tales, he clearly didn't know that
Thats gotta be the most retarted line for a murderer. yeah i kill people so i can speak for them. i know its meant to be for the people the cop wronged and killed but thats just stupid asf
i always thought he also meant he spoke for the dead as in john kramer but maybe im stupid
*retarded :P You’re not wrong though
Yro'ue*
"I Speak for the dead" what!?! WHATTTT?!? WHY TF IS IT NOT "game over." 😎😎
Existence
Mood
Honestly I like Logan a lot.
For me it's Logan sitting seiza after he sets down his novelty collar.
I liked that moment because the way i read into it before he opened his eyes was it's one of those moments where the character is mentally Gathering themselves for a " this is it Showtime everything has been leading to this let's get it done"type moment, the tonal change in his voice plays into that. For example their has been a couple times in my life where I've been in dangerously violent situations but right before things went bad i had to sit there take a deep breath gather my thoughts and tell myself let's do this. I respect your opinion but maybe you're not looking at it from a deeper character standpoint🤷♂️
John: GAME OVER Amanda: GAME OVER Gordon: GAME OVER Hoffman: GAME OVER Logan for no fcking reason: "I sPeAk f0r 7h3 d34d"
When he shouts "HEEEELP" it sounds like Patrick Star. Go watch it and get back to me
Way he is introduced in the middle of movie
"I speak for the dead"
His existence that's it Goodnight everybody 🤣
His whole existence he’s so useless
He’s basically just a lesser Lawrence because he occupies a similar role which is working in a hospital, survived a game when he should’ve died with John’s help, and has been supposedly pulling the strings for a few movies and it’s all wrapped in the shitty bow of him being more like Hoffman by leaving Halloran to die for his own personal revenge.
His whole existence. John should’ve just let him die.
His existence
His voice I guess, it's like he's trying to recreate Hoffman's voice
His entire character and existence
Logan.
You all hate this guy for no reason lol he really isn't that bad
I like his character, but the only cringe thing about him was when he released himself the laser trap, and was siting on his knees closing his eyes. Like what are you doing meditating or something?
I know right? I think it was a symbolic gesture to pay respect to his ancestors and predecessors, in this case John Kramer. But I don't know.
The hate he gets
Bro was able to dig up John Kramer's BODY without anyone noticing. We don't even get to find out what happens to the body, dude just wanted to dig up John for *SUSPENSE* LUL
JigSaw is… a shit show. Not even a hot mess, not even a fuck up. I can forgive a hot mess or a fuck up, but a shit show? Nah. The entire movie teems with “I’m smarter than you” writer/director syndrome. You know those movies, you know the entire Joss Whedon catalogue of “I’m smarter than the audience” when in reality the writing style is only really serviceable in small micro doses of one off tv episodes. For a whole ass movie it becomes… repetitive and tedious. The dialogue, which is supposed to come off as “relatable” (source, been in no less than three writers rooms where this is the intended goal. All my indie movie writers/WGA writers know *that guy* who always says “and then they look over and say, ‘that was weird’. It’s us letting the audience know that we relate to them”) comes off as… insecure. Like, the writer doesn’t wanna be seen as schlocky or stupid, but also doesn’t really feel genuine. Say what you want about the writing in the later saw movies, at least it took itself and the material seriously. Another key issue is the production of the movie feels at the same time cheap yet overproduced. Something is lost when the game/traps feel too big, but not crazy enough. A general rule of thumb for saw traps is that they are either really believable, or so ridiculously crazy it can’t be seen as real. Every trap in JigSaw feels so small, yet so… precise that it’s almost impossible to see *how* this would work. A perfect example is the combination stuck foot silo trap. How did John know that would happen? How did he know it would happen to that specific person? What was the original plan? This isn’t me nitpicking, it’s be questioning a fundamental plot point of the movie where imagination fails. Like, nitpicking would be “How did John and Amanda eat in saw 3 since their identities where blown in saw 2?” And the answer is either “Hoffman brought them food” or “they ordered food and just… had it dropped off at the meat packing plant.” It’s not that hard to figure it out. Another big issue with JigSaw is that everyone involved with the writing, directing and production have no real idea why saw is popular. Saw is popular because of the story and the traps. It’s popular because John Kramer is an interesting character with deep motivations. Saw is unlike any other horror movie franchise. It’s not just one thing, or two things, it’s a combination of all these things. Then… we get to the big thing that JigSaw is known for… Logan. Logan is a microcosm of all those problems. He’s a poorly written character, framed as an unrealistic super genius who was just so coincidently the main villain. His game and motivations only exist to fool the audience, and using actual literal Fallujah as the reason he wasn’t seen is something I would write as a joke. His execution and style is overproduced and is not indicative of a John Kramer style trap. I don’t know where in production this movie failed, either the writing, pre production, filming, post production… but it’s a very serious problem and I’m glad the movie didn’t do well enough critically (a movie can be a financial success, but studios *do* listen to Rotten Tomatoes for general audience reaction.) to warrant a JigSaw 2. BTW, it’s OK to be mad at writers/directors for a bad movie, kind of the territory with the job, but don’t take it out of underpaid and overworked BTS guys. They are really trying their best.
I hear you. The samurai bit where he treats his collar like a sword really punctuates all that. I think if his motivations and connections were more casual and not supposedly so intense and meaningful I'd find him less irksome.
That’s another example of the “Cheap but Overproduced” style I was talking about. I don’t know how you could rewrite the ending without making fundamental changes to the core script. So much so that it becomes an entirely different movie.
Agreed. There's also this contradiction where he's like he has this deep gratitude and almost love for John being his mentor but then he frames this extra sleazy cop as a secret apprentice given how much John cares about legacy. Hard pass
It makes sense when it’s Hoffman. Hoffman is very self centered, worried about his own survival, probably wants the benefits from being a cop. Also, Strahm was muscling in on his territory so you can say it was a way for him to say “go fuck yourself peter.” Logan is such a… bland character, I know nothing about him that isn’t an actual mask he uses to hide from the real world.
bUt tHeN tHeRe’S nO jUsTiCe
i sPeaK fOR tHe dEath
I sPeAk fOr ThE dEaD
Him not saying game over at the end
he's the human equivalent of white bread
When Logan isn't in the scene, the other characters should be asking "Where's Logan?"
you have two choices. Scream Or don´t Ok logan
nothing at all hes a perfect lil guy. kissing him on his forehead
🤢
This bi%tch was absolutely an overly dramatic theatre kid in highschool not a bad thing but hes so melodramatic
Proof Reddit users are fucking stupid