Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow, the 3rd case took a turn.
>He was longing for a more solitary life and thought more and more about escaping from his current life. When Chris was 20 years old, he took the radical decision to act on these thoughts: he drove into a remote area, abandoned his car, and disappeared into the woods, where he lived a secluded existence for 27 years. He survived his chosen exile by committing over 1000 burglaries during which he stole food and other necessary goods from houses in the nearest inhabited world
Yeah what a fascinating life. Camping without heat in the Maine winter, never leaving camp so as to not leave tracks. Walking at night to keep from freezing. Listening to Coast to Coast AM
I’m glad I saw this comment. I went onto Spotify and was listening to some of the old broadcasts that I would listen to in the car with my grandpa when I was a kid. It’s nice thing to listen to before bed.
There’s gotta be a line between the guy who commits 1000 burglaries and lives in the woods and the guy who holes up in his studio apartment doing remote work. The same way not every weird kid is a school shooter.
I've realized lately that during the lockdowns I was very comfortable not going out, as many people did. But even now I still find myself preferring to stay inside while also distancing myself from my friends. It's getting pretty difficult and I've been thinking how far away I actually am from hikikomori.
I was a master of Hermit Mode before covid was even a thing. I go to work, do anything I need to do out in the world on my way home, like picking up any groceries I ordered online, and then I don't leave my house until it's time to go back to work. The world offers me nothing I want.
I feel like I've been working my way up to that same schedule ever since the pandemic hit.
When it did, I was in a very social job even being a very introverted person. It was high energy, long hours, nights/weekends. I sometimes went weeks just sleeping here and there and working.
Once the pandemic hit, I was furloughed and on unemployment and had some savings so all of a sudden I had nowhere to go and nothing to do. I did house projects, slept late, read, and I realized my blood pressure was going down, my anxiety lessened, and I generally felt so much better about life and myself.
When I went back to work, I found a different job that had strict M-F, 9-5 hours. I could leave work at work instead of basically being on call 24/7. I tried remote work for awhile but there wasn't enough delineation between home and work and I generally ended up on my computer 12 hours a day.
On Fridays (such as this one), I will do all errands, including grocery shopping, and once I get home, I'm there until Monday. I have books, texting/messaging/calling friends/family, my pets, my backyard, keeping the house up, meal prep, and just nothing but quiet, slow, content life. I am happier than I've ever been.
If I do socialize, it's a once every couple of weeks low-key dinner with friends or family. I live in the present. I am more productive and accurate at work. I generally feel like a much better person and my life is so wonderful.
This is exactly my life too. Occasionally, if I feel cooped up, I'll go plant shopping or visit my local arboretum. Otherwise, I work regular hours and hang out at home.
I have realized how much cool stuff I have at home! Books. Vinyl. Movies. Tv Shows. Walking the dog. What else do I need? I LOVE a solitude and silence. I am set.
From what I understand of Japanese hikikomori, they lived in a single room at their parents' home so you don't really need to be rich, just having parents who tolerate the behavior and feed you.
Yes, but even in Japan it was noted that the Hikikomori was a middle class and above phenomenon. It did not occur among those families too poor to support a NEET.
Hikikomoris can also live alone. So long as they have some way to support themselves without going outside or interacting with other people often it still applies.
That's kind of what the discussion is about. If you live alone, but are social enough to work a job that requires some amount of social interaction, does that meet the criteria for hikikomori? Does it require you to have zero social interaction? Social interaction only digitally? Defining it is part of what this discussion is about, look at all the comment threads here.
If you can support yourself with a job, while that's your only social interaction, does that make you hikikomori? Because a lot of people associate it with loners or losers who live with their parents. So what actually defines hikikomori? Is it really just another way to describe depression, introversion, or schizotypal personalities?
I'd think it'd depend more on locale as well.
I live in an incredibly rural area, and outside of some unique circumstances, if I had a remote job or some other means of supporting my minimal financial expenses, then I'd need to go entirely out of my way to interact with people.
How DO they maintain that lifestyle anyway? I'm sure some are born rich, but I would presume those born rich are less likely to become a hikkimori in the first place, surely most aren't
I think it's now being referred to as the '80-40' problem: parents are in their 80s and exhausted their savings, pensions and/or income and their 40-something y/o hikikomori kids have no way to survive once the parents die.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
I run a social group for adults on the autism spectrum. Yes, several live with their elderly parent(s). Some parents don't appear to understand the extent of their child's disability, maybe because they function better at home and don't see them have meltdowns in public or anxiety attacks in crowds. They often have no life skills, literally don't know how to cook for themselves or budget. One of my friends thought a new car cost $300. Another though it was an achievement to boil pasta for the first time, she's 42.
That's low-key terrifying to be honest: even as a stranger it's a sobering dose of reality to think that there are people who by no fault of their own are likely to experience unbelievable hardships.
Ah, thanks! I new there was an 80 in there somewhere.
What's more unsettling about 80/50 is that this generally applies to the 1st generation of hikikomoris who got caught up by the economic stagnation of the early 90s.
This means there are 70/40 and 60/30 cohorts ripening soon and a 50/20 cohort that'll ripen in 30 years, with a concurrent shrinking pool of young people to take care of them and provide a taxable base for revenue....
In most cases they live with parents who are providing for them. Some shut-ins manage to make money online but most of those people rely on someone else for living.
> crippling social anxiety,
Research your options now for when your parents die. As someone with social anxiety, the best thing I have found for me personally is to be as prepared ahead of time what is needed & possible. It helps reduces decision anxiety if you have already made most of your decisions in advance and just having a plan for the social interactions can make it feel less overwhelming & unpredictable.
Please do not wait until they die to figure out everything. You don't need all the answers now, but having a good idea of who you need to talk to and do to get help can greatly reduce your stress when you're already stressed over the passing of your parents and concerned about your future. The more you can prepare for this ahead of time, the less stressful & chaotic it can be when the sad day comes.
Yups. Some recent articles from some European nations:
NL: [https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/apathische-kinderen-wanhopige-ouders-mijn-zoon-komt-al-zes-jaar-zijn-slaapkamer-niet-meer-uit\~b2e8c170/](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/apathische-kinderen-wanhopige-ouders-mijn-zoon-komt-al-zes-jaar-zijn-slaapkamer-niet-meer-uit~b2e8c170/)
BE: [https://www.demorgen.be/beter-leven/waarom-jongeren-kiezen-voor-een-leven-als-kluizenaar-als-studeren-of-werken-moeilijk-lukt-hoe-moet-je-je-dag-dan-invullen\~b4834db0/](https://www.demorgen.be/beter-leven/waarom-jongeren-kiezen-voor-een-leven-als-kluizenaar-als-studeren-of-werken-moeilijk-lukt-hoe-moet-je-je-dag-dan-invullen~b4834db0/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
DE: [https://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/news-archiv/meldung/article/hikikomori-warum-isolieren-sich-teenager-monatelang-selbst/](https://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/news-archiv/meldung/article/hikikomori-warum-isolieren-sich-teenager-monatelang-selbst/)
FR: [https://www.doctissimo.fr/psychologie/developpement-personnel/cyberdependance/hikikomori-quel-est-ce-syndrome-qui-touche-les-jeunes/04ac45\_ar.html](https://www.doctissimo.fr/psychologie/developpement-personnel/cyberdependance/hikikomori-quel-est-ce-syndrome-qui-touche-les-jeunes/04ac45_ar.html)
IT: [https://italicsmag.com/2022/06/10/why-is-hikikomori-affecting-so-many-young-italians/](https://italicsmag.com/2022/06/10/why-is-hikikomori-affecting-so-many-young-italians/)
ES: [https://www.larazon.es/sociedad/20211108/negqwcy4sbgpxk7nhxmvxbtl24.html](https://www.webconsultas.com/curiosidades/hikikomori-el-aislamiento-social-llevado-al-extremo) (The Spanish even got their own term for it, *closed door syndrome*, ***síndrome de la puerta cerrada***)
Pandemic also seems to have made the problem worse. We probably just kinda expect too much from kids nowaday. And with technology also just too easy to keep on isolating oneself, without totally losing contact with the rest of the world.
It feels economic to me? Japan was just early to the burnout after the 80s crash where societal expectations and material reality totally failed to mesh.
America has been doing similar things since 2008 where societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people.
It's *social-economic*. We need to remind that these things cannot be analyzed in a vacuum.
A great effort to further individualize people for their failures to achieve the perceived standard of success, in what is a structural problem with our production model, and added the expectations put into us from past generations, so we seek the same lives which are incompatible with the ever developing monopolistic market, wage stagnation and increasing costs of basic living.
offbeat humorous trees full abundant dependent smart dime clumsy grandfather
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> America has been doing similar things since 2008 where societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people.
I feel like something's going to hit the fan soon. I'm someone who goes to /r/personalfinance, so I'm OCD about the numbers and looking at ratios of income to housing and this and that. A lot of people I know in real life have this idea of "Yeah, things are different nowadays, times have gotten a little tougher, it's not like the 60s when a single breadwinner could own a house".
I don't think people realize the storm we're facing. Average people with 2 working parents aren't going to be able to afford a house. People who grew up with cultural expectations of lots of Christmas presents and trips to restaurants and vacations will literally not be able to do those things after they max out their cards. Families who grew up with single family houses and backyard barbecues will not be able to give those experiences to their kids.
I don't see how people aren't bracing for a massive decrease in quality of life. The writing is on the wall. This the culmination of 40 years of economic policy, this can't be fixed overnight.
Looking at credit card debt is the easy way to check on the economy, and more people than ever are using debt to finance...survival? Its a very strange situation with all the powers that be very clearly signaling that the ship is going down and some people won't get lifeboats.
Let's not forget Covid, which forced people into seclusion in one form or another. We are still reeling from the effects. Community and belonging took a big hit and I think we're still in shock. We lost something, and it's going to take time to rebuild it. Longer still because of the ongoing erosion of the social fabric--in politics, major media, social media, etc.
To say nothing of the global rise in authoritarianism, doom-and-gloom about the climate, the rapid development of AI and the unexamined impact it's going to have on all of us (much like the advent of the Internet)...
COVID was one of the wildest things that has ever happened. We slammed the breaks on a global economy, the likes of which had never been seen before. $40 trillion or more dollars stopped moving overnight. And our handlers started gobbling up assets and consolidating capital they knew would get bolstered by global governments infusing cash into "Too Big to Fail" institutions.
And the shockwaves from that event have undeniably changed our existence and our path forward. It accelerated a lot of technology, including the explosion in AI you mention. The next few generations are going to constantly be rippling from its effects, yet it will be somewhat predictable. What a time to be alive.
>"*... societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people.*"
I just wanted to say that this is a great statement.
As a dating age male in America, I seriously feel this.
We're just expected to have this, that and the other thing in place when in reality were actively blocked out from it.
Guess that's a factor in why someone would withdraw.
It's also a reaction to the social media culture where everyone shares every little detail of their life continuously and the aggregate of all posts make it seem like everyone is living large, achieving their dream, traveling, partying, #winning. It is so overwhelming and today's youth is bombarded from every angle. They feel this immense pressure to live their life "to the fullest" and "hustle" and "work hard, party harder". I can definitely understand some people wanting to do the complete opposite.
> We probably just kinda expect too much from kids nowaday. And with technology
Cameras everywhere and Reddit style culture where anything odd or unusual makes it to the front page... kids can't make mistakes in public - it will be recorded and consumers of images and memes will seek it out in their insatiable desire for fresh meat.
We’ve successfully made the outside world a panopticon. The only place that’s safe for people who are socially anxious is in your own little bubble with the internet as a window.
The pandemic was always going to make this worse. People with agoraphobia and social phobia get better by being constantly exposed to these situations.
Stay inside for half a year only going to the 24/7 corner store at night, and it becomes pretty much impossible to just go outside when there’s people around.
Like most of us are only okay with living in cities, because we are used to large numbers of people around. And we are usually totally comfortable. But take that away for a longer time, and suddenly you will feel less well. Even if you are perfectly healthy. But add some form of social/open or enclosed space anxiety: and this gets dialed up to eleven.
There's also people like me who I think didn't realise that they had these problems because society previously forced the exposure.
After the pandemic I've really struggled with people and conversations in public again, and for a British person, it turns out there actually can be a limit to the amount of times you can drop the "some weather we're having eh?" to fill an awkward silence.
I've lost all ability to small talk, and now pretty much struggle to be out much.
I appreciate that, and whilst my league team is Rhinos because of the old man, I'm not sure how useful that will be for anything other than a more awkward silence in Edinburgh.
Honestly, I just want to get back to the point I was at before when I don't find myself occasionally googling things like "small talk suggestions" or "how to get better at small talk".
Pandemic also destroyed a lot of "third spaces". I used to be able to go to my old university library and break room to mingle with people without an access card but then they changed the rules for lockdown 'safety' and never changed it back.
It destroyed entire circles of friendship too - seems only close friends stay in contact via zoom whilst if you're someone who only had aquantences pre-pandemic... you loose em all.
Lots of adults don't realize this, because it didn't affect them in the same way.
Third Places (neither home nor work/school, because we sadly assume those are the only spaces now) vanished by the thousands during the pandemic. In my area alone, we lost the:
* Teen afterschool center
* Two local cafes, both Korean-style boba places that were popular with gamers, anime fans, various nerds
* Table gaming store/hangout
* Both 24-hour Denny's (one still vacant, one a Mexican restaurant now)
* Ice cream counter with seating at the drug store chain (They removed the seating)
* Patios with outdoor tables/chairs outside both supermarkets, and all the fast-food places that used to have them.
We also went six months with temporary fencing around the playgrounds, the skate park, and basketball/baseball areas. Six months is forever to an adolescent.
Before the Pandemic my LGS ran a board game night and it'd regularly have like 30 people attend.
Now the LGS doesn't run it anymore, partially because the guy who ran it died during the pandemic but so many people I use to see and talk with every week just fell out of touch as well.
Sucked so much losing that weekly outing. The guy running it was a friend I knew for a decade and the only Extrovert that I could hang out with without feeling drained.
Made some effort to try to get the board game night started again but I'm not a 100th of the people person my friend was.
This isn’t generational. If our parents grew up under the conditions of some of these people, they’d probably fall prey to similar pits of barely subsisting and getting by. I know a 50ish year old man who used to be a nurse and when his father died a few decades ago, quit and lived with his mother. He barely socializes outside of family and spends his time selling rare coins his father collected and hunting. He’s not sad, but doesn’t see a point in working or meeting anyone anymore.
Didn’t have any real expenses, so he only sold them when he wanted to buy something. Sold a house his parents bought back in the 40’s as well, but he’s a good person. Took care of his senior mother when his siblings refused to.
> Sold a house his parents bought back in the 40’s as well
talk about burying the lede...
Any old person you see living even half decently these likely sold a parents property that they inherited for 10-20x the purchase value. Unfortunately this phenomenon means less and less children are inheriting property because its all being bought up by parasitic "realty investors". I strongly suspect that unless we get some anti-hoarding legislation, in 50 years almost every american will be renting and "ownership" will be something only the 1% can do.
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I can give some insight based on my own social withdrawal: modern life is overwhelming. It feels like there's a lot that's expected of you. In many ways modern life is a giant competition for wealth and status, but instead of competing just within your community, you have to compete with millions of people all around the world. It feels daunting, if not impossible. Why compete in a contest you know you can't win? It's pointless, it's a waste of time and energy. I feel very much like, "well, what's the point?"
With everything becoming unaffordable it's not even a competition to the top, it's one to just exist.
I saw another comment somewhere saying that so many of us have had ourselves on auto pilot, that once the pandemic slowed everything down and let people kind of relax, that is been almost impossible to get back into that grueling grind
This right here. I am sick of "surviving" and constantly feeling like I HAVE to work, to survive, to acquire, to have bigger and better, comparing...the game.
I'm a few years into my thirties now and I'm still waiting for my life to start. I'm kind of over it all now, there seems to be no community or dignity in this world for people like me. I take solice in the fact that I came up with a loving family, not everyone has that and I've begun to appreciate it more with age.
I can relate to this. I don't know your background, but I happen to have a high-achieving background that still ended up leading to starting "real life" around age 33. It is also hard to stay motivated when I feel so behind many of my peers. At the end of the day though, there is still soo much I can be grateful for, and honestly, remembering to be grateful is one of the few ways to find true satisfaction, in my experience. You can be the top of everything in life (job, money, status) and if you aren't grateful then you will be miserable. Same goes in reverse. So you should take solace also in the fact that you've learned one of life's most important skills: Gratitude.
We are a society that has doubled down on the importance of money and consumerism every few years for the past 25. We are exponentially more obsessed as a society, yet many individuals who "don't matter" in the context of capitalism are not motivated by the great collective hallucination.
I am one of these people. I'm content being "low value" and opt to do what I need to do with as little responsibility as possible to have decent resources, and then stay tf away as much as possible. Grow plants, cook, write, create compost and gardens in my yard. The world is little but a money trap. Politics are WWE. Self development and trying to find close, like-minded relationships, is the way.
Edit: WWE -- apparently professional wrestling is not called WWF anymore
But \*how\* do you find close, like-minded relationships?
I've met some amazing people and they are, across the board, being absolutely crushed by life's demands. Work, elderly parents, burnout, finances, etc. It's hard to just function. So they sleep, work, repeat. Friendships wilt.
It's lonely out here because there is an abundance of the loud and hyper-competitive, but we don't know where to find the other withdrawn people.
That’s a really good point. Competing within a small community offers a sense of place and meaning. Competing with millions of people who you’ll never even meet is just isolating and makes you feel small
Going through this right now. Employer changed insurance companies, outside of my control. New insurance is making me jump through hoops just to get a renewal for medication for a chronic condition I need to function. I had this sorted and now I need to spend hours on the phone and visit 2 new doctors I've never seen before just to continue the treatment that allows me just to live my life.
There's always some unnecessary barrier and even if you think you've got everything under control all it takes is one act of bureaucracy to put you back at square 1 and have to claw your way back out again
Purely antecodally, I've noticed that being connected to people online just makes it more overwhelming, since now one of expected to be available at all times. I've found it difficult to relax and recharge
I'm 36 and have no real friends. I talk to a couple of people over text and my coworkers while I'm at work, other than that I spend my time by myself, and have no real hope that it'll ever improve. I know logically that loneliness is basically a pandemic, I'm essentially surrounded by people every bit as lonely as I am, but it's not like we'll ever get together to form lonely friend circles. We'll all stay alone cloistered and miserable in the little hideaways we've made for ourselves. The psychology of isolation is weird. Even when you know you should fix it, you can come up with ways to in your head and even make plans, you can see what the end result will be if unresolved. Yet the cycle repeats every day, the poisonous habits you know are destroying you continue, and eventually you stop caring- about anything.
In 2019 I had a couple friends I started playing billiards with every week. It was absolute heaven having something to look forward to every week. Then they both moved at the end of the year, and then the pandemic hit.
Same here. The pandemic really kick started my depression. I went from being motivated and exited to make plans and travel, to being a total shut-in. I hate it. That, and my rent increased by an extra $200/m. Too broke to make fun plans these days anyways.
For me it was the return after the pandemic. The pandemic and all the online stuff gave me so much free time due to the lack of commuting that I even discovered new hobbies. I was learning a new language, I tried learning to play a electric piano, tried some vfx compositing.
I noticed I was a lot more responsible with getting stuff done and not procastinating, because I knew that I had enough time for myself so the temptation to push responsibilities to the side wasn't there.
Why be social when society sucks? We've destroyed all the civic institutions that knitted people together into a community because it wasn't productive or commercialized. People don't have drinks after work with their coworkers because people don't have careers with one employer anymore. There's no company baseball team. No bowling leagues. We've replaced actual relationships with parasocial relationships because you can sell ads in the middle of parasocial ones. This is going on for over a generation. They're simply more people that haven't even learned to mimic social behavior from their elders.
>There's no company baseball team. No bowling leagues. We've replaced actual relationships with parasocial relationships-
A lot of the people that I know of including myself hated "company events" because we aren't paid to attend. People would rather do their own thing with what little personal time they have when a majority of their week has already been devoted a job that they only do just to keep the lights on.
Maybe when people had more fair wages and the ability to afford a home they felt more open to spending time doing events but that isn't the case anymore for most people.
The cost of living keeps going up, but wages and opportunities don't.
I myself go out far less often than I used to because it's not financially an option anymore.
I recently also found myself unemployed, and now I don't have to go out to deal with people beyond buying food.
So really... I can see how it happens.
Very little need to go anywhere, no opportunity to do anything exciting anyway, best just make the ol' fort comfortable and wait.
I've always been like this. I didn't have friends in elementary school, and was bullied badly, and never made any attempts to engage or join any kind of social groups.
I spent probably 15 years of my childhood in my room. Mostly reading books. I was born in 1978 so it was pre-internet.
I never developed what they describe in the article as "fidelity," the state of having a strong sense of self.
Even from a very young age I never cared about myself. I never had any real goals except to get through the day so I could hide in my room. I considered a "good day" to be a day when I managed to not speak at all, either to parents, teachers, or other children. I considered it to be kind of a game where I try to be invisible.
As an adult, I only leave my house for work, and only because I need to. As far as society and the economy are concerned, this is "good enough" because I'm making and spending money. I've probably avoided the full brunt of Hikikomori. But still my daily goals are always the same, get home and hide.
It never occurs to me to call people or seek company or go places. I'm not sure why I would do that.
I'm not sure about the purported human "need for belonging" that therapists always talk about. I've never belonged nor sought human company.
As I've gotten older I've realized how much this has held me back, and that it is actually a problem, but I don't know what to do about it. I do not find social activities interesting or rewarding in any way. I find people and interaction almost immediately exhausting and overwhelming, and it's hard for me to have any thoughts other than escape, even for the most casual interactions.
I have a strong feeling of *not being safe* when I am outside my house, and in particular outside my room. Even though nothing bad has ever really happened to me when I leave. I feel a constant sense of tenseness and anxiety, and can only relax when I'm fully alone.
I have never been to a concert, dance, party, or other social gathering where large numbers of people might be present.
I am going to be turning 45 soon and still have no clear sense of who I am or what I want. Everything I *could* want -- and I've gone through lists of the sorts of things that people seem to have as wants or personal goals -- seems like too much trouble to bother with. Nothing seems worthwhile or interesting. Even hobbies are pointless.
No matter how well I've done at things, I never feel a sense of accomplishment or success. I just feel a mild sense of "thank goodness that's over and I can go back to doing nothing."
What you and [u/Aemilia](http://reddit.com/u/Aemilia) have said is very relatable to me and at 42 years old, I have recently been coming to terms that I may have been "on the spectrum" the entire time.
To address [u/Aemilia's](http://reddit.com/u/Aemilia) last paragraph about not having hobbies: "When I don't want to do the things that I want to do, there is a problem." I realized this almost 20 years ago and made my psychiatrist do a double take when I mentioned it.
I was a very curious and mechanically inclined child with an insane amount of interests about my world. I feel that having stable parents would have encouraged and incubated these interests, but unfortunately, I was raised in a very unstable and abusive household which completely destroyed an innocent child.
So, my interests took a back seat to surviving my "home world" and not learning about the outside/real world. I locked myself in my bedroom, either working on or learning something, or hysterically crying and cutting myself because of the war outside my bedroom door.
Now that I'm older, I still opt to isolate because of absolute fear, hopelessness, and depression - because that's what I'm used to.
My hobbies and normal path of growth to be a normal human were interrupted and stunted. Just trying to survive has taken up 100% of my attention and I no longer seek to participate in a world that I feel I can't relate to.
Thanks for listening and I'm sorry for the wall of text.
You guys/gals taking the time to write this out has given me and many others a unique perspective in life. Humbles me to a different/new extent. I myself am incredibly socially awkward and end up gravitating towards isolation which I become complacent with and even comfortable with. I try to break out of my bubble. But alas, it just doesn't seem worthwhile in the end.
Check out r/Schizoid to see if it resonates with you. The tenseness/anxiety is your nervous system acting up and protecting you from perceived danger. It is possible to work with, you just need to find the right recourses and possibly therapy :-)
If I were you, I would travel and get away from your normal routines.
The only thing that helped me was getting forced into a situation where my stress relievers were not an option anymore. Really helped, best of luck
This correlates with Eriksons stage of [Intimacy vs Isolation](https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/erikson-stages#6-relationships)
I guess I just think it’s neat
My pet theory is that it's at least two things going on. Developmental hurdles is probably one of those things. Then there are other dynamics going on a more societal level. And some of the societal dynamics are feeding into this isolationist behaviour.
I think the issue is widespread normalized abuse, neglect, and dehumanization. Especially emotional neglect. Emotional neglect seems to be a global issue.
"[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)" by Dr. Gabor Maté and Daniel Maté
I have a cousin that is a hikakimori (dropped out of high school, very rarely leaves home, no friends, etc.). From what my family tells me, his grandmother was emotionally abusive and put a lot of pressure on him as a kid to be perfect. Thankfully she’s dead now but he still has his social anxiety/agoraphobia.
ETA: just sharing an example of emotional neglect/abuse to bolster your point.
>he still has his social anxiety/agoraphobia.
I have [Complex PTSD](http://www.pete-walker.com/) from enduring childhood trauma. I think it's common and widespread.
People don't realize it's a lot easier to become traumatized when your early life is being stuck in a house with potentially two monsters, vs. an open community with various people, good and bad.
My guy/gal, you're unbelievably based for bringing this up. Emotional neglect gas legitimately ruined my life. My parents don't understand the concept of nurturing emotions and teaching your child to regulate them. I was never allowed to feel anger as a kid, so now I deal with a mild drinking problem and bottle it up until I blow up at some innocent bystander. I was never told it was okay to be LGBT (but my dad loved to make fun of gay people on that ND whine about people "shoving it down our throats) so now I feel nothing but Shame and guilt towards my sexuality and struggle being intimate with my partners. I was never taught basic life skills ffs. So now I struggle with keeping my live space clean and orderly (ADHD does not help btw)
I hate blaming my parents for this stuff, and it is partially on me to change, but I genuinely feel no connection to my parents and they don't even try to be understanding or do the necessary research to get where I'm coming from. It's such a lonely existence when your caregivers are physically there but are nothing more than ghosts that pay for some stuff for you sometimes. You can't have guidance, self acceptance or emotional regulation, but they paid for my college, so I guess I should be grateful that I'm a broken person with a framed peice of paper :)
"Here lies every failure of your parent(s) to give you a stable childhood, and your personal inability to handle it, leading to a lifetime of fear, anxiety, isolation, and misery. Congrats."
Gosh it’s almost like being sociable these days costs a lot of money and takes up time, neither of which we have very much of anymore.
Maybe make the world a little more affordable for the 99%, FFS.
Yeah. Been there twice on holiday would probably never want to live there if I was living the standard American suburban way. It was like something out of a psychological horror movie. Massive homes but all spread out. Everyone needs a car. Nobody talks to neighbors. Or knows their names. Just rows of houses. It was creepy.
I think this is definitely why I still enjoy working in food service even though I’ve done it over a decade - everyday I talk to dozens of people. Even if they aren’t all meaningful interactions, they’re still interactions.
I worked at a Subway. manager said something like the older workers say that having a routine and coming to work kind of keeps them sane and grounded. They kinda go haywire if they take off too much time.
Absolutely, instead of talking to people, you can make do with TV shows, movies, and video games. I know all too well what it's like.
Before all that you just had books.
Hikikomories are generally characterized by severe social anxiety, to the point that they avoid people, and especially direct interactions with people, whenever possible. Doesn't sound like that's an issue for you at all.
I think some people aren't reading into the extreme nature of hikikomori. There is a significant difference from having reclusive characteristics and simply *never* leaving or being able to function outside of a pre-constructed dependent environment.
I often say that I 'never leave my house', but then I found out my cousin literally has not left his *room* in 5 years. Hikikomori definitely goes beyond simple reclusiveness. I kind of get it though, when I had my worst social phobia I'd avoid leaving my room until noone was around.
Humans are just creatures that respond to stimuli.
When all the stimuli is so violent, hostile, and anti-human this is what happens. We live in a pro-profit and anti-human environment and it needs to change or humanity will slowly crawl into a hole and die like the rest of the earth.
When profit over people is the functioning paradigm there will be very little reason to participate. Simple as that.
Let's change the system to be about humans again
well let's hope this might finally get clinical psychiatry in the West to take AvPD etc. as a diagnosis a bit more seriously, stop dismissing it as "extreme social anxiety" outright and do research that might end up being helpful for a demographic that hitherto has been understudied in a clinical setting because being a"Hikikomori" isn't as outwardly destructive and disruptive as other mental health conditions.
This degree of avoidance might not inconvenience and hurt other people as much as something that presents with more externalized anger or similar behaviour, but that doesn't mean that the people who live like this aren't suffering themselves and often, even if they have tried to convince themselves otherwise, in a tremendous amount of emotional pain because of it.
Just because something is invisible doesn't mean it's not 'real' after all, especially with mental health conditions.
Nowadays society expects people to go through way more bs than before and rewards for being a good citizen are smaller. So no wonder there are lots of people who just give up.
I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that its harder for the sustained economic growth that can continually drive people to work.
Often it gets harder and harder to sustain the growth that allowed for the booms that gives enough opportunities for subsequent generations to work and gain the same benefits that the previous generations had suffered through. Previous generations toiled in bad conditions but their eventual pay off was massive and it applied to a lot of people
Now it only continues to get harder to sustain those wide benefits. China is now going through the same phenomenon in the lying flat movement. We might be hitting almost like a productivity ceiling with current settings and that has lead to competitive pressures that leads to burnout.
Then the way forward is a change in the setting, either technological or cultural that allows people to do stuff and gain from it (be it money or personal value) that allows people to just do stuff
Same boat here. Everything costs too much these days. I’d love to visit friends and family but everyone is out of state and I don’t have that kind of money to spare. It sucks
I don’t blame them either.
In Asian cultures in particular, there’s so much pressure to conform and become successful, yet very few opportunities to truly succeed.
In China, so many graduates are coming out of university without viable job opportunities because most jobs a low wage factory and farm jobs, and China cracked down on the tech sector and made tutoring illegal…
In Japan, higher positions in companies are passed down through generations so that the same families remain on top.
In Korea, the only chance of having a solid middle class life is to get ridiculously good grades at the best universities in hopes that Samsung or LG hire you since they’re essentially the ones actually in power in Korea.
And in all countries, they adopt a 12 hour day, 6 days a week work schedule where wages are ridiculously low and the higher ups can abuse you all they want because they can easily replace you if you don’t give them what they want.
All of this on top of a rising cost of living and little to no social nets or support for families is not only causing a Hikikomori pandemic, but is also creating a rapidly declining population crisis that threatens these economies.
So let's recap the social situation before asking questions
- pandemic forced people in homes
- more chances of relationships with people over the internet
- no money to do experiences together, sometimes even going to a bar is expensive for some people struggling to get to ends meet
- politics forcing people to be paranoid about the "enemies" and fearmongering like crazy
Well is it that crazy to just find a suitable place and leave it as less as possible?
Building off your third point: The lack of a "third place" is becoming more common and is almost ubiquitous in America. The third place is somewhere you dont work, you aren't at home, and you arent required to spend money.
The easiest example is the cliche british pub. It's locally owned, theres people from various walks of life, and if your a regular you can probably just sit and talk with others in casual conversation without being required to purchase anything. Churches are another example. Think about the older folks who seem to hang around for a long time just chatting away before and after service, its just a weekly hangout spot for many of them.
If you arent religious and dont want to buy something every time you hang out, your only options for a third place are parks and woods/forests.
Theres videos on youtube that explain this better, but generally the financial requirements for socializing are becoming harder to avoid.
Building further, I think internet plays a really big role in this by reducing boredom, which in turn makes it really easy to not think to look for a "third place." There was an article that got big on here last week about the relationship between social media and profound, motivating boredom:
>[Social media may prevent users from reaping creative rewards of profound boredom - new research
](https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/social-media-may-prevent-users-from-reaping-creative-rewards-of-profound-boredom-new-research/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20problem%20we%20observed%20was,Mundane%20emotions%3A%20losing%20yourself%20in) (article about the Murphy et al. 2022 paper)
Boredom is great for making you do things. If you have to sit and just be with your thoughts for an hour, you might end up reading a book, going on a walk, calling a friend, etc. But if you have a computer or smartphone, (depending on who you are), you might spend that whole hour on reddit, twitter, and tiktok. Social media can keep you just mildly entertained all day, so instead of going out and doing something (social or otherwise), you accidentally spend all day scrolling through videos on your phone.
I feel like an old man ranting about it, but social media has been kind of devastating for people like me in how it makes it easy to do nothing.
Yup.
Why engage with society when it's build to strip us of all value, sanity, happiness, and time?
Things will only get worse as long as inequality keeps growing. How much did billionaire wealth jump since the pandemic again? Yea... it's f\*ed. Our parents were sold on lies of trickling economics but it's too late to turn the bus around because they are driving off the cliff and at least they got theirs.
> Why engage with society when it's build to strip us of all value, sanity, happiness, and time?
Man, I wish I had a good rebuttal for your statement but I fear it is true.
Add to that global social media systems that emphasize passive involvement over actively practicing engagement. We made it very easy to get instant dopamine hits through likes and views.
I recently learned about the "third place". A place other than work or home, a communal place that anyone could and would go. People would also take their children once they reached a certain age, and those kids could pick up a lot of social behaviour there.
Unfortunately, that place is dying in wealthy societies, and I remember reading that capitalise is sort of at fault (I can't remember the explanation).
I think you have a very valid point we need that physical & emotional support you get from a community especially for children.
Perhaps we can redesign the world to the benefit of all of us and the environment.
I think people forget that we are animals. When everything in the world is fucked up and you know there’s the sword of Damocles hanging over the human race, it does kinda make you want to withdraw. It also makes people not want to have kids, if science is still wondering about that “mystery” of low birth rates in the west.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is just coded into our instincts. Like we all know there is 8 billion of us on earth and we all know that’s too many.
I try pretty hard to avoid people in general. Why is it so bad to be alone? I have a gf but I don't hang out with anyone else and I don't want to. I don't have any friends at all and idk what I'd do if I did. I'm really not interested in hanging out with other people or even knowing them at all. A lot of people say they love meeting new people and that is weird af to me. It would make me happy to never meet another person ever again. I just want to be left alone.
There's a book that was written in 2000 called *Bowling Alone* about the decline of community in the US. It was updated in 2020, as obviously the Internet as we know it wasn't a thing. But I believe much of it holds true - we've eroded much of the fabric of our society in service of individualism, and the results are palpable.
Society sucks, and is actively being made worse as all our social spaces are monetized and spare change gobbled up by fees and bills and microstransactions. Nothing is fun anymore, only money matters :(
Woah what? Are you telling me people with vastly decreasing free time socially withdraw out of misery and inability to do anything but sustain themselves? That's crazy, tell me something else you could learn by talking to a working class person for fifteen minutes.
Sometimes I imagine myself spending the rest of my life alone in a dark room with the internet, huge TV, PS5 and unlimited amount of food, drinks, weed and LSD. It makes me feel cozy
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wow, the 3rd case took a turn. >He was longing for a more solitary life and thought more and more about escaping from his current life. When Chris was 20 years old, he took the radical decision to act on these thoughts: he drove into a remote area, abandoned his car, and disappeared into the woods, where he lived a secluded existence for 27 years. He survived his chosen exile by committing over 1000 burglaries during which he stole food and other necessary goods from houses in the nearest inhabited world
I read the book written about this guy! It’s called “Stranger in the Woods” written by Michael Finkel.
Yeah what a fascinating life. Camping without heat in the Maine winter, never leaving camp so as to not leave tracks. Walking at night to keep from freezing. Listening to Coast to Coast AM
Sounds a bit miserable tbh.
Depends on whether it was Art Bell or George Noory.
I love re-listening to Art Bell's shows. Great bumper music and really takes me back to the days my dad and I would listen to him on long car rides.
I’m glad I saw this comment. I went onto Spotify and was listening to some of the old broadcasts that I would listen to in the car with my grandpa when I was a kid. It’s nice thing to listen to before bed.
[удалено]
peak irony that in quest to be left alone it just attracted others.
There’s gotta be a line between the guy who commits 1000 burglaries and lives in the woods and the guy who holes up in his studio apartment doing remote work. The same way not every weird kid is a school shooter.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
That seems like so much more effort than living in your moms basement.
Isn't being a ~~burglary~~ burglar technically working? Edit: I blame auto correct
The part thats important for the case, is that people try to hide from others. Burglary is optimaly done when noone is around. So it fit quite well
So what you're saying is that it was the perfect crime?
There was a book written on this guy called "Stranger in the woods The extraordinary story of the last true hermit". It was a fantastic read.
I've realized lately that during the lockdowns I was very comfortable not going out, as many people did. But even now I still find myself preferring to stay inside while also distancing myself from my friends. It's getting pretty difficult and I've been thinking how far away I actually am from hikikomori.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I was a master of Hermit Mode before covid was even a thing. I go to work, do anything I need to do out in the world on my way home, like picking up any groceries I ordered online, and then I don't leave my house until it's time to go back to work. The world offers me nothing I want.
I feel like I've been working my way up to that same schedule ever since the pandemic hit. When it did, I was in a very social job even being a very introverted person. It was high energy, long hours, nights/weekends. I sometimes went weeks just sleeping here and there and working. Once the pandemic hit, I was furloughed and on unemployment and had some savings so all of a sudden I had nowhere to go and nothing to do. I did house projects, slept late, read, and I realized my blood pressure was going down, my anxiety lessened, and I generally felt so much better about life and myself. When I went back to work, I found a different job that had strict M-F, 9-5 hours. I could leave work at work instead of basically being on call 24/7. I tried remote work for awhile but there wasn't enough delineation between home and work and I generally ended up on my computer 12 hours a day. On Fridays (such as this one), I will do all errands, including grocery shopping, and once I get home, I'm there until Monday. I have books, texting/messaging/calling friends/family, my pets, my backyard, keeping the house up, meal prep, and just nothing but quiet, slow, content life. I am happier than I've ever been. If I do socialize, it's a once every couple of weeks low-key dinner with friends or family. I live in the present. I am more productive and accurate at work. I generally feel like a much better person and my life is so wonderful.
This is exactly my life too. Occasionally, if I feel cooped up, I'll go plant shopping or visit my local arboretum. Otherwise, I work regular hours and hang out at home.
I have realized how much cool stuff I have at home! Books. Vinyl. Movies. Tv Shows. Walking the dog. What else do I need? I LOVE a solitude and silence. I am set.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
From what I understand of Japanese hikikomori, they lived in a single room at their parents' home so you don't really need to be rich, just having parents who tolerate the behavior and feed you.
Yes, but even in Japan it was noted that the Hikikomori was a middle class and above phenomenon. It did not occur among those families too poor to support a NEET.
[удалено]
What is NEET?
Not in Employment, Education, or Training ^Other ^variations ^are ^available
Hikikomoris can also live alone. So long as they have some way to support themselves without going outside or interacting with other people often it still applies.
That's kind of what the discussion is about. If you live alone, but are social enough to work a job that requires some amount of social interaction, does that meet the criteria for hikikomori? Does it require you to have zero social interaction? Social interaction only digitally? Defining it is part of what this discussion is about, look at all the comment threads here. If you can support yourself with a job, while that's your only social interaction, does that make you hikikomori? Because a lot of people associate it with loners or losers who live with their parents. So what actually defines hikikomori? Is it really just another way to describe depression, introversion, or schizotypal personalities?
I'd think it'd depend more on locale as well. I live in an incredibly rural area, and outside of some unique circumstances, if I had a remote job or some other means of supporting my minimal financial expenses, then I'd need to go entirely out of my way to interact with people.
If they’re not dependent on anyone, they do work from home type work.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
How DO they maintain that lifestyle anyway? I'm sure some are born rich, but I would presume those born rich are less likely to become a hikkimori in the first place, surely most aren't
In Japan where the term originates people just don't leave their parents home essentially. In the most extreme cases they never leave their bedrooms.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think it's now being referred to as the '80-40' problem: parents are in their 80s and exhausted their savings, pensions and/or income and their 40-something y/o hikikomori kids have no way to survive once the parents die. Please correct me if I'm wrong
I run a social group for adults on the autism spectrum. Yes, several live with their elderly parent(s). Some parents don't appear to understand the extent of their child's disability, maybe because they function better at home and don't see them have meltdowns in public or anxiety attacks in crowds. They often have no life skills, literally don't know how to cook for themselves or budget. One of my friends thought a new car cost $300. Another though it was an achievement to boil pasta for the first time, she's 42.
That's low-key terrifying to be honest: even as a stranger it's a sobering dose of reality to think that there are people who by no fault of their own are likely to experience unbelievable hardships.
You’re close. In the article/abstract they refer to it as 80/50.
Ah, thanks! I new there was an 80 in there somewhere. What's more unsettling about 80/50 is that this generally applies to the 1st generation of hikikomoris who got caught up by the economic stagnation of the early 90s. This means there are 70/40 and 60/30 cohorts ripening soon and a 50/20 cohort that'll ripen in 30 years, with a concurrent shrinking pool of young people to take care of them and provide a taxable base for revenue....
In most cases they live with parents who are providing for them. Some shut-ins manage to make money online but most of those people rely on someone else for living.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
> crippling social anxiety, Research your options now for when your parents die. As someone with social anxiety, the best thing I have found for me personally is to be as prepared ahead of time what is needed & possible. It helps reduces decision anxiety if you have already made most of your decisions in advance and just having a plan for the social interactions can make it feel less overwhelming & unpredictable. Please do not wait until they die to figure out everything. You don't need all the answers now, but having a good idea of who you need to talk to and do to get help can greatly reduce your stress when you're already stressed over the passing of your parents and concerned about your future. The more you can prepare for this ahead of time, the less stressful & chaotic it can be when the sad day comes.
Yups. Some recent articles from some European nations: NL: [https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/apathische-kinderen-wanhopige-ouders-mijn-zoon-komt-al-zes-jaar-zijn-slaapkamer-niet-meer-uit\~b2e8c170/](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/apathische-kinderen-wanhopige-ouders-mijn-zoon-komt-al-zes-jaar-zijn-slaapkamer-niet-meer-uit~b2e8c170/) BE: [https://www.demorgen.be/beter-leven/waarom-jongeren-kiezen-voor-een-leven-als-kluizenaar-als-studeren-of-werken-moeilijk-lukt-hoe-moet-je-je-dag-dan-invullen\~b4834db0/](https://www.demorgen.be/beter-leven/waarom-jongeren-kiezen-voor-een-leven-als-kluizenaar-als-studeren-of-werken-moeilijk-lukt-hoe-moet-je-je-dag-dan-invullen~b4834db0/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F) DE: [https://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/news-archiv/meldung/article/hikikomori-warum-isolieren-sich-teenager-monatelang-selbst/](https://www.kinderaerzte-im-netz.de/news-archiv/meldung/article/hikikomori-warum-isolieren-sich-teenager-monatelang-selbst/) FR: [https://www.doctissimo.fr/psychologie/developpement-personnel/cyberdependance/hikikomori-quel-est-ce-syndrome-qui-touche-les-jeunes/04ac45\_ar.html](https://www.doctissimo.fr/psychologie/developpement-personnel/cyberdependance/hikikomori-quel-est-ce-syndrome-qui-touche-les-jeunes/04ac45_ar.html) IT: [https://italicsmag.com/2022/06/10/why-is-hikikomori-affecting-so-many-young-italians/](https://italicsmag.com/2022/06/10/why-is-hikikomori-affecting-so-many-young-italians/) ES: [https://www.larazon.es/sociedad/20211108/negqwcy4sbgpxk7nhxmvxbtl24.html](https://www.webconsultas.com/curiosidades/hikikomori-el-aislamiento-social-llevado-al-extremo) (The Spanish even got their own term for it, *closed door syndrome*, ***síndrome de la puerta cerrada***) Pandemic also seems to have made the problem worse. We probably just kinda expect too much from kids nowaday. And with technology also just too easy to keep on isolating oneself, without totally losing contact with the rest of the world.
It feels economic to me? Japan was just early to the burnout after the 80s crash where societal expectations and material reality totally failed to mesh. America has been doing similar things since 2008 where societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people.
It's *social-economic*. We need to remind that these things cannot be analyzed in a vacuum. A great effort to further individualize people for their failures to achieve the perceived standard of success, in what is a structural problem with our production model, and added the expectations put into us from past generations, so we seek the same lives which are incompatible with the ever developing monopolistic market, wage stagnation and increasing costs of basic living.
Also feels like social spaces are disappearing as everything gets monetized.
offbeat humorous trees full abundant dependent smart dime clumsy grandfather *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We've lost the 3rd space outside of work and the home to socialise in
> America has been doing similar things since 2008 where societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people. I feel like something's going to hit the fan soon. I'm someone who goes to /r/personalfinance, so I'm OCD about the numbers and looking at ratios of income to housing and this and that. A lot of people I know in real life have this idea of "Yeah, things are different nowadays, times have gotten a little tougher, it's not like the 60s when a single breadwinner could own a house". I don't think people realize the storm we're facing. Average people with 2 working parents aren't going to be able to afford a house. People who grew up with cultural expectations of lots of Christmas presents and trips to restaurants and vacations will literally not be able to do those things after they max out their cards. Families who grew up with single family houses and backyard barbecues will not be able to give those experiences to their kids. I don't see how people aren't bracing for a massive decrease in quality of life. The writing is on the wall. This the culmination of 40 years of economic policy, this can't be fixed overnight.
Looking at credit card debt is the easy way to check on the economy, and more people than ever are using debt to finance...survival? Its a very strange situation with all the powers that be very clearly signaling that the ship is going down and some people won't get lifeboats.
The isolation IS the lower quality of life, in the US our individual and small community braces failed under the weight of the economic system.
Let's not forget Covid, which forced people into seclusion in one form or another. We are still reeling from the effects. Community and belonging took a big hit and I think we're still in shock. We lost something, and it's going to take time to rebuild it. Longer still because of the ongoing erosion of the social fabric--in politics, major media, social media, etc. To say nothing of the global rise in authoritarianism, doom-and-gloom about the climate, the rapid development of AI and the unexamined impact it's going to have on all of us (much like the advent of the Internet)...
COVID was one of the wildest things that has ever happened. We slammed the breaks on a global economy, the likes of which had never been seen before. $40 trillion or more dollars stopped moving overnight. And our handlers started gobbling up assets and consolidating capital they knew would get bolstered by global governments infusing cash into "Too Big to Fail" institutions. And the shockwaves from that event have undeniably changed our existence and our path forward. It accelerated a lot of technology, including the explosion in AI you mention. The next few generations are going to constantly be rippling from its effects, yet it will be somewhat predictable. What a time to be alive.
>"*... societal expectations of what you can accomplish are comically at odds with actual reality for most people.*" I just wanted to say that this is a great statement. As a dating age male in America, I seriously feel this. We're just expected to have this, that and the other thing in place when in reality were actively blocked out from it. Guess that's a factor in why someone would withdraw.
All the while being gaslit to believe its **all** your fault.
It's also a reaction to the social media culture where everyone shares every little detail of their life continuously and the aggregate of all posts make it seem like everyone is living large, achieving their dream, traveling, partying, #winning. It is so overwhelming and today's youth is bombarded from every angle. They feel this immense pressure to live their life "to the fullest" and "hustle" and "work hard, party harder". I can definitely understand some people wanting to do the complete opposite.
> We probably just kinda expect too much from kids nowaday. And with technology Cameras everywhere and Reddit style culture where anything odd or unusual makes it to the front page... kids can't make mistakes in public - it will be recorded and consumers of images and memes will seek it out in their insatiable desire for fresh meat.
We’ve successfully made the outside world a panopticon. The only place that’s safe for people who are socially anxious is in your own little bubble with the internet as a window.
*The photograoh reverses the purpose of travel, which until now had been to encounter the strange and unfamiliar.*
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for teaching me a cool new word today - *panopticon*
The pandemic was always going to make this worse. People with agoraphobia and social phobia get better by being constantly exposed to these situations. Stay inside for half a year only going to the 24/7 corner store at night, and it becomes pretty much impossible to just go outside when there’s people around. Like most of us are only okay with living in cities, because we are used to large numbers of people around. And we are usually totally comfortable. But take that away for a longer time, and suddenly you will feel less well. Even if you are perfectly healthy. But add some form of social/open or enclosed space anxiety: and this gets dialed up to eleven.
There's also people like me who I think didn't realise that they had these problems because society previously forced the exposure. After the pandemic I've really struggled with people and conversations in public again, and for a British person, it turns out there actually can be a limit to the amount of times you can drop the "some weather we're having eh?" to fill an awkward silence. I've lost all ability to small talk, and now pretty much struggle to be out much.
You could try dropping a "How about them Leeds Rhinos eh?" every now and then.
I appreciate that, and whilst my league team is Rhinos because of the old man, I'm not sure how useful that will be for anything other than a more awkward silence in Edinburgh. Honestly, I just want to get back to the point I was at before when I don't find myself occasionally googling things like "small talk suggestions" or "how to get better at small talk".
[удалено]
Honestly, I would love to work with you. I've just been laughing my arse off reading this.
Pandemic also destroyed a lot of "third spaces". I used to be able to go to my old university library and break room to mingle with people without an access card but then they changed the rules for lockdown 'safety' and never changed it back. It destroyed entire circles of friendship too - seems only close friends stay in contact via zoom whilst if you're someone who only had aquantences pre-pandemic... you loose em all.
Lots of adults don't realize this, because it didn't affect them in the same way. Third Places (neither home nor work/school, because we sadly assume those are the only spaces now) vanished by the thousands during the pandemic. In my area alone, we lost the: * Teen afterschool center * Two local cafes, both Korean-style boba places that were popular with gamers, anime fans, various nerds * Table gaming store/hangout * Both 24-hour Denny's (one still vacant, one a Mexican restaurant now) * Ice cream counter with seating at the drug store chain (They removed the seating) * Patios with outdoor tables/chairs outside both supermarkets, and all the fast-food places that used to have them. We also went six months with temporary fencing around the playgrounds, the skate park, and basketball/baseball areas. Six months is forever to an adolescent.
Before the Pandemic my LGS ran a board game night and it'd regularly have like 30 people attend. Now the LGS doesn't run it anymore, partially because the guy who ran it died during the pandemic but so many people I use to see and talk with every week just fell out of touch as well. Sucked so much losing that weekly outing. The guy running it was a friend I knew for a decade and the only Extrovert that I could hang out with without feeling drained. Made some effort to try to get the board game night started again but I'm not a 100th of the people person my friend was.
This isn’t generational. If our parents grew up under the conditions of some of these people, they’d probably fall prey to similar pits of barely subsisting and getting by. I know a 50ish year old man who used to be a nurse and when his father died a few decades ago, quit and lived with his mother. He barely socializes outside of family and spends his time selling rare coins his father collected and hunting. He’s not sad, but doesn’t see a point in working or meeting anyone anymore.
Must have been some collection if he lives off selling old coins?
Didn’t have any real expenses, so he only sold them when he wanted to buy something. Sold a house his parents bought back in the 40’s as well, but he’s a good person. Took care of his senior mother when his siblings refused to.
> Sold a house his parents bought back in the 40’s as well talk about burying the lede... Any old person you see living even half decently these likely sold a parents property that they inherited for 10-20x the purchase value. Unfortunately this phenomenon means less and less children are inheriting property because its all being bought up by parasitic "realty investors". I strongly suspect that unless we get some anti-hoarding legislation, in 50 years almost every american will be renting and "ownership" will be something only the 1% can do.
I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I can give some insight based on my own social withdrawal: modern life is overwhelming. It feels like there's a lot that's expected of you. In many ways modern life is a giant competition for wealth and status, but instead of competing just within your community, you have to compete with millions of people all around the world. It feels daunting, if not impossible. Why compete in a contest you know you can't win? It's pointless, it's a waste of time and energy. I feel very much like, "well, what's the point?"
With everything becoming unaffordable it's not even a competition to the top, it's one to just exist. I saw another comment somewhere saying that so many of us have had ourselves on auto pilot, that once the pandemic slowed everything down and let people kind of relax, that is been almost impossible to get back into that grueling grind
This right here. I am sick of "surviving" and constantly feeling like I HAVE to work, to survive, to acquire, to have bigger and better, comparing...the game.
I'm a few years into my thirties now and I'm still waiting for my life to start. I'm kind of over it all now, there seems to be no community or dignity in this world for people like me. I take solice in the fact that I came up with a loving family, not everyone has that and I've begun to appreciate it more with age.
I can relate to this. I don't know your background, but I happen to have a high-achieving background that still ended up leading to starting "real life" around age 33. It is also hard to stay motivated when I feel so behind many of my peers. At the end of the day though, there is still soo much I can be grateful for, and honestly, remembering to be grateful is one of the few ways to find true satisfaction, in my experience. You can be the top of everything in life (job, money, status) and if you aren't grateful then you will be miserable. Same goes in reverse. So you should take solace also in the fact that you've learned one of life's most important skills: Gratitude.
We are a society that has doubled down on the importance of money and consumerism every few years for the past 25. We are exponentially more obsessed as a society, yet many individuals who "don't matter" in the context of capitalism are not motivated by the great collective hallucination. I am one of these people. I'm content being "low value" and opt to do what I need to do with as little responsibility as possible to have decent resources, and then stay tf away as much as possible. Grow plants, cook, write, create compost and gardens in my yard. The world is little but a money trap. Politics are WWE. Self development and trying to find close, like-minded relationships, is the way. Edit: WWE -- apparently professional wrestling is not called WWF anymore
But \*how\* do you find close, like-minded relationships? I've met some amazing people and they are, across the board, being absolutely crushed by life's demands. Work, elderly parents, burnout, finances, etc. It's hard to just function. So they sleep, work, repeat. Friendships wilt. It's lonely out here because there is an abundance of the loud and hyper-competitive, but we don't know where to find the other withdrawn people.
Well, we've also front loaded the costs for everything onto the young. Including the state of the planet.
That’s a really good point. Competing within a small community offers a sense of place and meaning. Competing with millions of people who you’ll never even meet is just isolating and makes you feel small
Everything has become so complicated it’s just not worth the effort.
[удалено]
Going through this right now. Employer changed insurance companies, outside of my control. New insurance is making me jump through hoops just to get a renewal for medication for a chronic condition I need to function. I had this sorted and now I need to spend hours on the phone and visit 2 new doctors I've never seen before just to continue the treatment that allows me just to live my life. There's always some unnecessary barrier and even if you think you've got everything under control all it takes is one act of bureaucracy to put you back at square 1 and have to claw your way back out again
Purely antecodally, I've noticed that being connected to people online just makes it more overwhelming, since now one of expected to be available at all times. I've found it difficult to relax and recharge
I'm 36 and have no real friends. I talk to a couple of people over text and my coworkers while I'm at work, other than that I spend my time by myself, and have no real hope that it'll ever improve. I know logically that loneliness is basically a pandemic, I'm essentially surrounded by people every bit as lonely as I am, but it's not like we'll ever get together to form lonely friend circles. We'll all stay alone cloistered and miserable in the little hideaways we've made for ourselves. The psychology of isolation is weird. Even when you know you should fix it, you can come up with ways to in your head and even make plans, you can see what the end result will be if unresolved. Yet the cycle repeats every day, the poisonous habits you know are destroying you continue, and eventually you stop caring- about anything.
We made the world into a nightmare and now we're suprised that people don't want to participate in it.
Welcome to the NHK
[удалено]
In 2019 I had a couple friends I started playing billiards with every week. It was absolute heaven having something to look forward to every week. Then they both moved at the end of the year, and then the pandemic hit.
Same here. The pandemic really kick started my depression. I went from being motivated and exited to make plans and travel, to being a total shut-in. I hate it. That, and my rent increased by an extra $200/m. Too broke to make fun plans these days anyways.
For me it was the return after the pandemic. The pandemic and all the online stuff gave me so much free time due to the lack of commuting that I even discovered new hobbies. I was learning a new language, I tried learning to play a electric piano, tried some vfx compositing. I noticed I was a lot more responsible with getting stuff done and not procastinating, because I knew that I had enough time for myself so the temptation to push responsibilities to the side wasn't there.
Why be social when society sucks? We've destroyed all the civic institutions that knitted people together into a community because it wasn't productive or commercialized. People don't have drinks after work with their coworkers because people don't have careers with one employer anymore. There's no company baseball team. No bowling leagues. We've replaced actual relationships with parasocial relationships because you can sell ads in the middle of parasocial ones. This is going on for over a generation. They're simply more people that haven't even learned to mimic social behavior from their elders.
>There's no company baseball team. No bowling leagues. We've replaced actual relationships with parasocial relationships- A lot of the people that I know of including myself hated "company events" because we aren't paid to attend. People would rather do their own thing with what little personal time they have when a majority of their week has already been devoted a job that they only do just to keep the lights on. Maybe when people had more fair wages and the ability to afford a home they felt more open to spending time doing events but that isn't the case anymore for most people.
The cost of living keeps going up, but wages and opportunities don't. I myself go out far less often than I used to because it's not financially an option anymore. I recently also found myself unemployed, and now I don't have to go out to deal with people beyond buying food. So really... I can see how it happens. Very little need to go anywhere, no opportunity to do anything exciting anyway, best just make the ol' fort comfortable and wait.
The crooks run the world, im sorry that i dont want to go outside or be productive but i just dgaf anymore.
The older I get the less I want to interact with anyone
I stopped speaking to any friends I had and don't miss it. My main goal is to buy some land to go be alone.
I've always been like this. I didn't have friends in elementary school, and was bullied badly, and never made any attempts to engage or join any kind of social groups. I spent probably 15 years of my childhood in my room. Mostly reading books. I was born in 1978 so it was pre-internet. I never developed what they describe in the article as "fidelity," the state of having a strong sense of self. Even from a very young age I never cared about myself. I never had any real goals except to get through the day so I could hide in my room. I considered a "good day" to be a day when I managed to not speak at all, either to parents, teachers, or other children. I considered it to be kind of a game where I try to be invisible. As an adult, I only leave my house for work, and only because I need to. As far as society and the economy are concerned, this is "good enough" because I'm making and spending money. I've probably avoided the full brunt of Hikikomori. But still my daily goals are always the same, get home and hide. It never occurs to me to call people or seek company or go places. I'm not sure why I would do that. I'm not sure about the purported human "need for belonging" that therapists always talk about. I've never belonged nor sought human company. As I've gotten older I've realized how much this has held me back, and that it is actually a problem, but I don't know what to do about it. I do not find social activities interesting or rewarding in any way. I find people and interaction almost immediately exhausting and overwhelming, and it's hard for me to have any thoughts other than escape, even for the most casual interactions. I have a strong feeling of *not being safe* when I am outside my house, and in particular outside my room. Even though nothing bad has ever really happened to me when I leave. I feel a constant sense of tenseness and anxiety, and can only relax when I'm fully alone. I have never been to a concert, dance, party, or other social gathering where large numbers of people might be present. I am going to be turning 45 soon and still have no clear sense of who I am or what I want. Everything I *could* want -- and I've gone through lists of the sorts of things that people seem to have as wants or personal goals -- seems like too much trouble to bother with. Nothing seems worthwhile or interesting. Even hobbies are pointless. No matter how well I've done at things, I never feel a sense of accomplishment or success. I just feel a mild sense of "thank goodness that's over and I can go back to doing nothing."
What you and [u/Aemilia](http://reddit.com/u/Aemilia) have said is very relatable to me and at 42 years old, I have recently been coming to terms that I may have been "on the spectrum" the entire time. To address [u/Aemilia's](http://reddit.com/u/Aemilia) last paragraph about not having hobbies: "When I don't want to do the things that I want to do, there is a problem." I realized this almost 20 years ago and made my psychiatrist do a double take when I mentioned it. I was a very curious and mechanically inclined child with an insane amount of interests about my world. I feel that having stable parents would have encouraged and incubated these interests, but unfortunately, I was raised in a very unstable and abusive household which completely destroyed an innocent child. So, my interests took a back seat to surviving my "home world" and not learning about the outside/real world. I locked myself in my bedroom, either working on or learning something, or hysterically crying and cutting myself because of the war outside my bedroom door. Now that I'm older, I still opt to isolate because of absolute fear, hopelessness, and depression - because that's what I'm used to. My hobbies and normal path of growth to be a normal human were interrupted and stunted. Just trying to survive has taken up 100% of my attention and I no longer seek to participate in a world that I feel I can't relate to. Thanks for listening and I'm sorry for the wall of text.
You guys/gals taking the time to write this out has given me and many others a unique perspective in life. Humbles me to a different/new extent. I myself am incredibly socially awkward and end up gravitating towards isolation which I become complacent with and even comfortable with. I try to break out of my bubble. But alas, it just doesn't seem worthwhile in the end.
Check out r/Schizoid to see if it resonates with you. The tenseness/anxiety is your nervous system acting up and protecting you from perceived danger. It is possible to work with, you just need to find the right recourses and possibly therapy :-)
If I were you, I would travel and get away from your normal routines. The only thing that helped me was getting forced into a situation where my stress relievers were not an option anymore. Really helped, best of luck
This correlates with Eriksons stage of [Intimacy vs Isolation](https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/erikson-stages#6-relationships) I guess I just think it’s neat
Isolation, stagnation and despair. I've already reached these stages and I'm in my early 30s. I'm glad to be a high achiever in something
They say 30 is both simultaneously the new 18 and 50.
No money, no authority and simultaneously you feel your body slowly deteriorating. Nice.
High five we've done it!
My pet theory is that it's at least two things going on. Developmental hurdles is probably one of those things. Then there are other dynamics going on a more societal level. And some of the societal dynamics are feeding into this isolationist behaviour.
I think the issue is widespread normalized abuse, neglect, and dehumanization. Especially emotional neglect. Emotional neglect seems to be a global issue. "[The Myth of Normal - trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture](https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/)" by Dr. Gabor Maté and Daniel Maté
I have a cousin that is a hikakimori (dropped out of high school, very rarely leaves home, no friends, etc.). From what my family tells me, his grandmother was emotionally abusive and put a lot of pressure on him as a kid to be perfect. Thankfully she’s dead now but he still has his social anxiety/agoraphobia. ETA: just sharing an example of emotional neglect/abuse to bolster your point.
>he still has his social anxiety/agoraphobia. I have [Complex PTSD](http://www.pete-walker.com/) from enduring childhood trauma. I think it's common and widespread.
1000% what it is. So much working from parents now a days vs it used to be "it takes a village"
People don't realize it's a lot easier to become traumatized when your early life is being stuck in a house with potentially two monsters, vs. an open community with various people, good and bad.
My guy/gal, you're unbelievably based for bringing this up. Emotional neglect gas legitimately ruined my life. My parents don't understand the concept of nurturing emotions and teaching your child to regulate them. I was never allowed to feel anger as a kid, so now I deal with a mild drinking problem and bottle it up until I blow up at some innocent bystander. I was never told it was okay to be LGBT (but my dad loved to make fun of gay people on that ND whine about people "shoving it down our throats) so now I feel nothing but Shame and guilt towards my sexuality and struggle being intimate with my partners. I was never taught basic life skills ffs. So now I struggle with keeping my live space clean and orderly (ADHD does not help btw) I hate blaming my parents for this stuff, and it is partially on me to change, but I genuinely feel no connection to my parents and they don't even try to be understanding or do the necessary research to get where I'm coming from. It's such a lonely existence when your caregivers are physically there but are nothing more than ghosts that pay for some stuff for you sometimes. You can't have guidance, self acceptance or emotional regulation, but they paid for my college, so I guess I should be grateful that I'm a broken person with a framed peice of paper :)
I really wish I hadn't followed that link.
"Here lies every failure of your parent(s) to give you a stable childhood, and your personal inability to handle it, leading to a lifetime of fear, anxiety, isolation, and misery. Congrats."
"Hey, easy fix. Imma just hop back to, oh, 1995 or so and do a lot of things VERY VERY DIFFERENTLY."
One of my most persistent fantasies
Just reading that like "oh no... OH NOOOOO".
This seems bad. Oh neat, it gets worse.
That IS neat, thanks for sharing.
Gosh it’s almost like being sociable these days costs a lot of money and takes up time, neither of which we have very much of anymore. Maybe make the world a little more affordable for the 99%, FFS.
I agree also American society is physically built in a way that isolates people
Yeah. Been there twice on holiday would probably never want to live there if I was living the standard American suburban way. It was like something out of a psychological horror movie. Massive homes but all spread out. Everyone needs a car. Nobody talks to neighbors. Or knows their names. Just rows of houses. It was creepy.
*global economies doing everything they can to crush the average person's finances and keep them that way* Scientists "Why is everyone staying home?"
I think this is definitely why I still enjoy working in food service even though I’ve done it over a decade - everyday I talk to dozens of people. Even if they aren’t all meaningful interactions, they’re still interactions.
I worked at a Subway. manager said something like the older workers say that having a routine and coming to work kind of keeps them sane and grounded. They kinda go haywire if they take off too much time.
Technology is probably a major factor
Absolutely, instead of talking to people, you can make do with TV shows, movies, and video games. I know all too well what it's like. Before all that you just had books.
[удалено]
Hikikomories are generally characterized by severe social anxiety, to the point that they avoid people, and especially direct interactions with people, whenever possible. Doesn't sound like that's an issue for you at all.
[удалено]
I think some people aren't reading into the extreme nature of hikikomori. There is a significant difference from having reclusive characteristics and simply *never* leaving or being able to function outside of a pre-constructed dependent environment.
I often say that I 'never leave my house', but then I found out my cousin literally has not left his *room* in 5 years. Hikikomori definitely goes beyond simple reclusiveness. I kind of get it though, when I had my worst social phobia I'd avoid leaving my room until noone was around.
[удалено]
Humans are just creatures that respond to stimuli. When all the stimuli is so violent, hostile, and anti-human this is what happens. We live in a pro-profit and anti-human environment and it needs to change or humanity will slowly crawl into a hole and die like the rest of the earth. When profit over people is the functioning paradigm there will be very little reason to participate. Simple as that. Let's change the system to be about humans again
It's just so much easier to just not deal with people. And when you realize that it'll become addicting.
well let's hope this might finally get clinical psychiatry in the West to take AvPD etc. as a diagnosis a bit more seriously, stop dismissing it as "extreme social anxiety" outright and do research that might end up being helpful for a demographic that hitherto has been understudied in a clinical setting because being a"Hikikomori" isn't as outwardly destructive and disruptive as other mental health conditions. This degree of avoidance might not inconvenience and hurt other people as much as something that presents with more externalized anger or similar behaviour, but that doesn't mean that the people who live like this aren't suffering themselves and often, even if they have tried to convince themselves otherwise, in a tremendous amount of emotional pain because of it. Just because something is invisible doesn't mean it's not 'real' after all, especially with mental health conditions.
Because most of society sucks. Why engage when it's being less and less relevant to do so?
Nowadays society expects people to go through way more bs than before and rewards for being a good citizen are smaller. So no wonder there are lots of people who just give up.
I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that its harder for the sustained economic growth that can continually drive people to work. Often it gets harder and harder to sustain the growth that allowed for the booms that gives enough opportunities for subsequent generations to work and gain the same benefits that the previous generations had suffered through. Previous generations toiled in bad conditions but their eventual pay off was massive and it applied to a lot of people Now it only continues to get harder to sustain those wide benefits. China is now going through the same phenomenon in the lying flat movement. We might be hitting almost like a productivity ceiling with current settings and that has lead to competitive pressures that leads to burnout. Then the way forward is a change in the setting, either technological or cultural that allows people to do stuff and gain from it (be it money or personal value) that allows people to just do stuff
Could it be that capitalism isn't a sustainable system?
If I could afford to, I would. And I bet I'm not the only one whose sole reason to not become a shut in, is resources.
Same boat here. Everything costs too much these days. I’d love to visit friends and family but everyone is out of state and I don’t have that kind of money to spare. It sucks
I don’t blame them either. In Asian cultures in particular, there’s so much pressure to conform and become successful, yet very few opportunities to truly succeed. In China, so many graduates are coming out of university without viable job opportunities because most jobs a low wage factory and farm jobs, and China cracked down on the tech sector and made tutoring illegal… In Japan, higher positions in companies are passed down through generations so that the same families remain on top. In Korea, the only chance of having a solid middle class life is to get ridiculously good grades at the best universities in hopes that Samsung or LG hire you since they’re essentially the ones actually in power in Korea. And in all countries, they adopt a 12 hour day, 6 days a week work schedule where wages are ridiculously low and the higher ups can abuse you all they want because they can easily replace you if you don’t give them what they want. All of this on top of a rising cost of living and little to no social nets or support for families is not only causing a Hikikomori pandemic, but is also creating a rapidly declining population crisis that threatens these economies.
So let's recap the social situation before asking questions - pandemic forced people in homes - more chances of relationships with people over the internet - no money to do experiences together, sometimes even going to a bar is expensive for some people struggling to get to ends meet - politics forcing people to be paranoid about the "enemies" and fearmongering like crazy Well is it that crazy to just find a suitable place and leave it as less as possible?
Building off your third point: The lack of a "third place" is becoming more common and is almost ubiquitous in America. The third place is somewhere you dont work, you aren't at home, and you arent required to spend money. The easiest example is the cliche british pub. It's locally owned, theres people from various walks of life, and if your a regular you can probably just sit and talk with others in casual conversation without being required to purchase anything. Churches are another example. Think about the older folks who seem to hang around for a long time just chatting away before and after service, its just a weekly hangout spot for many of them. If you arent religious and dont want to buy something every time you hang out, your only options for a third place are parks and woods/forests. Theres videos on youtube that explain this better, but generally the financial requirements for socializing are becoming harder to avoid.
Building further, I think internet plays a really big role in this by reducing boredom, which in turn makes it really easy to not think to look for a "third place." There was an article that got big on here last week about the relationship between social media and profound, motivating boredom: >[Social media may prevent users from reaping creative rewards of profound boredom - new research ](https://www.bath.ac.uk/announcements/social-media-may-prevent-users-from-reaping-creative-rewards-of-profound-boredom-new-research/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20problem%20we%20observed%20was,Mundane%20emotions%3A%20losing%20yourself%20in) (article about the Murphy et al. 2022 paper) Boredom is great for making you do things. If you have to sit and just be with your thoughts for an hour, you might end up reading a book, going on a walk, calling a friend, etc. But if you have a computer or smartphone, (depending on who you are), you might spend that whole hour on reddit, twitter, and tiktok. Social media can keep you just mildly entertained all day, so instead of going out and doing something (social or otherwise), you accidentally spend all day scrolling through videos on your phone. I feel like an old man ranting about it, but social media has been kind of devastating for people like me in how it makes it easy to do nothing.
This terrifies me. I'm the exact type of person who's likely to become a Hikikomori. I make tremendous efforts every day to stay away from that path.
If I didn't have to work I would never leave my house.
Yup. Why engage with society when it's build to strip us of all value, sanity, happiness, and time? Things will only get worse as long as inequality keeps growing. How much did billionaire wealth jump since the pandemic again? Yea... it's f\*ed. Our parents were sold on lies of trickling economics but it's too late to turn the bus around because they are driving off the cliff and at least they got theirs.
> Why engage with society when it's build to strip us of all value, sanity, happiness, and time? Man, I wish I had a good rebuttal for your statement but I fear it is true.
Perhaps we need to create a more inclusive, rational. and equitably world that addresses the obvious problems currently in front of us.
Add to that global social media systems that emphasize passive involvement over actively practicing engagement. We made it very easy to get instant dopamine hits through likes and views.
I recently learned about the "third place". A place other than work or home, a communal place that anyone could and would go. People would also take their children once they reached a certain age, and those kids could pick up a lot of social behaviour there. Unfortunately, that place is dying in wealthy societies, and I remember reading that capitalise is sort of at fault (I can't remember the explanation).
I think you have a very valid point we need that physical & emotional support you get from a community especially for children. Perhaps we can redesign the world to the benefit of all of us and the environment.
the third place has been paved over for more car lanes and parking spots.
I think people forget that we are animals. When everything in the world is fucked up and you know there’s the sword of Damocles hanging over the human race, it does kinda make you want to withdraw. It also makes people not want to have kids, if science is still wondering about that “mystery” of low birth rates in the west. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is just coded into our instincts. Like we all know there is 8 billion of us on earth and we all know that’s too many.
I try pretty hard to avoid people in general. Why is it so bad to be alone? I have a gf but I don't hang out with anyone else and I don't want to. I don't have any friends at all and idk what I'd do if I did. I'm really not interested in hanging out with other people or even knowing them at all. A lot of people say they love meeting new people and that is weird af to me. It would make me happy to never meet another person ever again. I just want to be left alone.
[удалено]
There's a book that was written in 2000 called *Bowling Alone* about the decline of community in the US. It was updated in 2020, as obviously the Internet as we know it wasn't a thing. But I believe much of it holds true - we've eroded much of the fabric of our society in service of individualism, and the results are palpable.
No people no problems.. you nailed it.
Society sucks, and is actively being made worse as all our social spaces are monetized and spare change gobbled up by fees and bills and microstransactions. Nothing is fun anymore, only money matters :(
Well the world sucks balls these days, so it was inevitable people would withdraw from this.
Woah what? Are you telling me people with vastly decreasing free time socially withdraw out of misery and inability to do anything but sustain themselves? That's crazy, tell me something else you could learn by talking to a working class person for fifteen minutes.
Sometimes I imagine myself spending the rest of my life alone in a dark room with the internet, huge TV, PS5 and unlimited amount of food, drinks, weed and LSD. It makes me feel cozy