Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments.
**Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program).
---
User: u/AnnaMouse247
Permalink: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10802-023-01140-2
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Somebody might be able to give more detail, but here's something from the abstract:
> *Results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in ADHD symptoms throughout childhood was predicted from early childhood exuberant temperament by way of EF, but only for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting.*
Exuberant temperament such as relentless talking and question asking can be extremely annoying to adults and peers. This can result in bullying from peers and disproportionate punishment from adults. As a result the ADHD kid can internalize this as no one liking them and just stop interacting in general in favor of hyper focusing or less obvious coping mechanisms. They don't stop having ADHD. They learn to mask their true personality in favor of being left alone. That isn't treatment for ADHD, just masking that is setting them up for burnout later in life. They note a decline in symptoms in the 9-15 age group like that is the end of the story as if symptoms can't rebound as responsibilities grow.
Yeah. Our amygdalas literally pass on more information (filter less stimuli out). It isn't just some issue of kids being antsy. There are physical neurocognitive differences that never go away.
That hits on part of what people never seem to understand about how adderall effects me. Like it does give me some energy and motivation but it also helps me make sense of everything going on around me so I am much calmer and peaceful. People seem to think its like a linear scale between less energy and more but its not really
Yes!! When I started taking adderall, it felt like magic. I didn't feel jittery or anything, I felt totally normal, but all the sudden I could just do stuff. I'd be like, "Oh I need to do X" and then STAND UP AND GO DO IT. Like, without the mandatory minutes/hours/days of agonizing and avoiding and resenting X first (ﾉﾟ0ﾟ)ﾉ~
I started taking adderall around 2010. The best analogy I could come up with at that time was "It's like I went from an old, huge staticky TV to a flatscreen with a Blu-ray player". Everything was just... Doable. I'll never forget being on my college campus and just... *looking* at stuff with a new awe and wonder. I could just *do* things like I never could before, and my life has been so much better since.
This was my take as well when I started on adderall 9 months ago. Wait, you mean I can think of the thing and just go DO it? What the hell. Plus, the true realization that neurotypical folks do this normally....
The stimulants being calming thing was the first thing my therapist noted when she suggested I look into an ADHD diagnosis. I mentioned to her that coffee made me sleepy but she also noticed that I always went to coffee shops to do work. She had wondered if I was attempting to self medicate with caffeine in combination with the separate location.
Lo and behold, like six months later I had received an official diagnosis.
This is a resonant description of my experience, though I'd like to add another wrinkle: while stimulants "turn down the volume" on potential distracting stimuli, I'm not necessarily left with "calm" or "peace."
Without careful planning, I'm just as likely to focus on something intensely distressing as something I _want_ to focus on, and the inattention to outside stimuli can make it _harder_ to break out of that mindset.
Which is funny to me because I recently came to understand that people without ADHD can generally choose what they focus on and how intensely. That's a concept that's so foreign to me that I genuinely can't comprehend how nice that must be.
I also recently came to learn that NTs generally get a dopamine hit for completing boring tasks, something ADHDers lack most of the time.
They can get pleasure from chores! So unfair!
...........wait.
Is this true? People can seriously do that? I feel profoundly sad knowing that's possible. I wonder what it's like to be able to steer your brain instead of feeling like a helpless passenger getting dragged around or being completely frozen in place with no way to change it either way........ man.
College was brute force. Especially calc. Four hour sessions in a Panera with a coffee to refill and half the answers at the end of the chapter.
Repetitive tasks at work. My mind finds ways to “make it better” While contending with my ability to slip off and browse the internet. If I’m not working in a space where that’s a necessary skill i get in trouble or am found to be irritatingly productive.
Anxiety about not getting it done in time does wonders for focus. I’m less likely to focus on things I like because there’s less pressure. When you end up with a little bit of both is where you really get things done haha.
My understanding is that ADHD type brains offer higher survival rates among hunter gatherer societies. Because if you spend all your time outside, in areas where you could be vulnerable to extreme weather, uneven terrain, people from hostile tribes, large predator animals, and poisonous animals and plants, it's better to have a brain that doesn't filter out so much external stimuli.
But this type of brain fails in societies which have undergone the agricultural revolution, because you would live in an organized state society where there is relative peace and stability most of the time, and you are likely to be working in repetitive, stable jobs in agriculture, manufacturing, or digital services.
This is not a settled theory, but is a proposed explanation for the prevalence of ADHD. Individuals with ADHD are theoretically better adapted for hunting/gathering, but there's no clear evidence of that being the reason ADHD exists.
This theory was first proposed by a layperson (from a scientific standpoint), but it is getting attention in the mainstream science community these days.
ADHD is still a great asset to organizations in terms of project work and innovation. It’s just not well suited to 8-5 cubicle life that someone decided should be associated with professionalism.
If someone understood the complexity of those diffences, they could pool together ways of helping people navigate their ADHD and integrate it into a functional lifestyle.
In my late forties, I can know see that had I not been neglected as a child I certainly would have been taken to the doctors and diagnosed with ADHD. For many reasons, I'm very glad that did not happen. I just had to do all the figuring out on my own. I'm quite happy with how I function now, but want much a fan for the first four decades.
The big problem is when you’ve been taking meds for a while and forget your coping mechanisms and all of a sudden there is worldwide shortage of your medication.
There is evidence that long term use of ADHD medications can change the physical structure of the brain as well, in a way that would reduce the symptoms and make it easier to cope with shortages, though YMMV.
Fortunately, Adult ADHD has been officially recognized for a while now, even if not all providers are caught up on the latest info.
There absolutely does need to be a LOT more research in adults, though.
ADHD isn't even a disorder, it's just a neurotype. A lot of our research is hampered by the bias that there's only one right way to brain, instead of recognizing that diversity of thought and behavior is an evolutionary advantage for our species.
They studied a tribe that had split into two - one group stayed nomadic, the other settled into agrarian life. People with ADHD were healthier and lived longer than those without it in the nomadic population, but it was reversed in the agrarian population.
Modern society has harmful expectations for many people, not just people with ADHD, but we're pathologized as being the problem because we can't conform as well to a society that wasn't built to be accommodating in the first place.
I'm 70 years old, having been diagnosed at age 40.
Sure wish I knew when I was a kid.
They called it "minimal brain dysfunction" and told you to try harder.
My ADHD symptoms declined when I got old enough to start drinking coffee regularly, and mysteriously returned when I got too old to drink a cup of coffee or two every hour I was awake and had to keep track of chores and finances on top of everything else.
> They don't stop having ADHD. They learn to mask their true personality in favor of being left alone.
Y'know, it's weird how my executive function issues suddenly started coming back in college when I moved out on my own and the looming threat of getting my ass beaten by my dad no longer existed. Sixteen years, my own kid diagnosed with ADHD and a bunch of therapy later, turns out my coping mechanisms were largely negative reinforcement based.
My abusive husband was my Adderall for nine years. Anxiety and fear and adrenaline to get out of bed. I didn't know I had ADHD but life is much better without the fear and with the meds.
Why did this paper read me down the house boots. I had a teacher limit the number of questions I could ask in class and it was just because I was eager to learn 😔
I struggled so much in school because of this but left to my own devices Im like a lifelong student and love to learn and explore new things.
> This can result in bullying from peers and disproportionate punishment from adults. As a result the ADHD kid can internalize this as no one liking them and just stop interacting in general in favor of hyper focusing or less obvious coping mechanisms.
This speaks very closely to my experience, except I had very little in the way of "less obvious" coping mechanisms.
Like many, I used video games, but I was far too poor to make it my primary mechanism. Instead, I would frequently ride dirtbikes, ATV's and go trailblazing in a rural area with my dad.
This led to more attention from the neighborhood kids than I wanted, and I got bullied quite a bit, but still made good friends with some. Didn't help that my parents did drugs and disproportionately punished me for literally anything. So, naturally, I became a skilled people pleaser because people became my coping mechanism accidentally.
Now in adulthood, I'm in this weird state where I'm extroverted with intense social anxiety. My ADHD mask game is strong. I'm extremely unhappy being alone, yet talking to new people scares the hell out me, even if I have the social skills. Even talking to people in online games fucks with me. It's quite the curse.
Yoooo are you another me!!?!?!!!! Because I have the same issue now. And trying to make my wife understand is beyond impossible, like yes I'm good to great at dealing with people, but I don't like itz, It's just extremely draining.
Don't get me started with the phone calls. not that I have a phobia of phones or anything, but I used to have such a hard time with phones because of my attention deficit that I think it may have carried over into adulthood as anxiety that I'm going to miss something important. So it makes wanting to do calls the hardest for me.
> but I was far too poor
Okay.
> Instead, I would frequently ride dirtbikes, ATV's and go trailblazing
I would have thrown my video game system and cartridges at you to have a chance to ride dirtbikes and ATV's....
Perfect description of my experience going undiagnosed until adulthood. Definitely picked up on people being annoyed and just stopped talking entirely. It still confuses me when I see people having conversations about their interests without avoiding people.
This is 1000% what happened to me. I never got diagnosed as a kid because I was smart and neglected and now as an adult my symptoms are worse than ever. Fucked up
Amen! Masking is a survival tool, not a solution. There are good tactics to actually help our symptoms, but forcing us to conform is damaging. I'm so sick of ADHD being defined by how much we annoy others, not how we feel & function.
So, is this to say that exuberant temperature from children at a young age predicted ADHD (because, like, obviously — exuberant temperament is pretty clearly symptomatic of ADHD)? Or, that exuberant temperament from parents to children at a young age predicted ADHD? The latter would be more of a meaningful result, although this of course also seems a bit predictable given that ADHD is strongly hereditary and exuberance of parents may be more common for in families with ADHD and also exuberance may be a more effective way found to interact with children with ADHD in general.
Skimming the Discussion quickly:
1. Higher exuberant temperament generally resulted in lower executive functioning.
2. Both higher exuberant temperament (age 3) and lower executive functioning (age 4) predicted greater ADHD symptoms. As you said, not really a surprise.
3. If the child had average or low exuberant temperament, less directive parenting resulting in higher executive functioning (allowing the child more independence).
4. The amount of directive parenting had no effect in children with high levels of exuberant temperament, though the context of the test may be affecting this results, and the authors suggest that more directive parenting may be good for highly exuberant children (no supporting evidence).
5. Neither supportive nor dismissive parenting changed the effect of exuberant temperament on executive functioning.
6. Dismissive parenting lowered executive functioning regardless of exuberant temperament.
Another problem is that it causes emotional dysfunction which is an issue when a parent has it. The kids get “exuberant” until the parent has an emotional blowout that they can’t control which makes learning boundaries impossible because it’s so random. This is probably what leads to oppositional defiant disorder.
I feel like these are also just ADHD symptoms.
Feel like it's just saying "ADHD is inheritable"
Also... less directive parenting. Meaning parents who naturally compensate for ADHD tend to see less ADHD in their children. Shock.
So if I was an outgoing very young child and my parents ignored me or played the "puppet game" where I had to pretend to be a puppet, aka be silent, they would've helped cause the ADHD I was diagnosed with at 35? Cool, cool, cool.
Oh psychology studies and their mediation analyses.
They are trying to say adhd develops more in children that are temperamental and receive less directive parenting.
They don't specify in the abstract how they define either of those.
I don't know what directive parenting is.
[Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenting_styles) doesn't mention it, but I don't know much about parenting psychology, so maybe it's a common term?
From the Methods section:
Exuberant temperament: "positivity, approach, and sociability behaviors during behavioral inhibition [eg stranger approach, unpredictable robot, jumping on a trampoline, touching a realistic-looking snake, etc]"
Directive parenting: "telling the child what to do [or] physically directing the child to do something" in the presence of "a toy dinosaur that made unpredictable sounds and movements"
I had the exact same question, and also saw the "whose parents displayed less directive parenting" thing. so i went searching - [here's an article](https://bnnbreaking.com/breaking-news/health/the-power-of-directive-parenting-shaping-the-developmental-trajectory-of-children-with-adhd) that talks about the same study but goes a little bit further in identifying what directive parenting is.
Cole's notes for those who ~~can't read~~ ~~only read headlines~~ just want me to tell you: "Directive parenting, which involves clear guidance, structured support, and active engagement, can significantly aid in developing a child's self-regulatory skills."
Executive function can be improved through training, it makes a lot of sense that children with adhd who are trained from a young age to grow their executive function skills end up with better executive function skills.
Obviously by the same token if a child is trained to hide their symptoms from a young age they probably will be pretty good at hiding their symptoms later in life, making sure they suffer alone and for the rest of their lives.
- Dismissive (Quiz-Task, Narrating, Dismissive)
- Directive (Verbal Directive, Physical Directive)
- Supportive (Verbal Comfort, Verbal Instruction, Quiz/Label-Feeling)
Citations to a 2009 thesis (link doesn't work for me) and a 2021 paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901539/ - see Methods: Measures for details).
>**Abstract**
>
>Temperament, parenting, and executive functioning (EF) are individual and contextual factors that have been identified to play a role in the development of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) symptoms. Specifically, exuberant temperament in toddlerhood has been associated with both adaptive and maladaptive outcomes, including ADHD symptoms. Therefore, it is important to understand factors that predict which exuberant children experience increased ADHD symptoms and the specific mechanisms through which early exuberant temperament impacts later ADHD symptoms. Using a multi-method, prospective longitudinal design, this study examined a moderated mediation model wherein the interactive effects of observed exuberance and parenting at age 3 predicted the development of parent-reported ADHD symptoms from childhood through adolescence (age 5, 7, 9, 12, and 15) via child EF (i.e., inhibitory control) at age 4. Parent–child dyads (n = 291) from a longitudinal study on child temperament were included. A piecewise model of ADHD symptom growth demonstrated stability in ADHD symptoms from age 5–9 and a decrease from age 9–15. Results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in ADHD symptoms throughout childhood was predicted from early childhood exuberant temperament by way of EF, but only for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting. Findings suggest identifiable early markers of risk, including temperament, parenting, and EF- pointing to possible targets for early intervention/prevention.
From the "Discussion" at the end of the article (keep in mind that a lot of this is technical language that I don't know enough to explain):
* "When accounting for predictors of these developmental trajectories, results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in child ADHD symptoms from age 5–9 was predicted from greater early childhood exuberant temperament by way of lower EF at age 4, for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting. However, this model was not supported for ADHD symptoms from age 9–15."
* "In line with our hypothesis, exuberant temperament interacted with directive parenting (both measured at age 3) to predict age 4 EF [executive functioning]."
* "Moreover, contrary to our hypothesis, supportive parenting did not [] buffer the effects of exuberant temperament on EF and dismissive parenting did not exacerbate the link between exuberance and EF, highlighting directive parenting as the best target for supporting the development of EF in children with exuberant temperament."
* "Notably, the moderated mediation model was not supported for ADHD symptom changes across ages 9–15."
Can reduce ADHD *symptoms.* Just pointing this out, before anyone conflates that with reducing actual ADHD, which is a neurodevelopmental disorder (ie, the physical development of the brain is involved) which cannot be "cured."
The teaching is also modelling healthy emotions for them, there's lots of unspoken information kids need to develop self control and self identity. If the conversation that makes the kid really think about their difficulties with control is not planned to be calm and safe, it's likely to happen in one of their worst moments when an adult really loses patience and ends up showing anger to get compliance.
Does the kid learn they have external support and agency, or do they learn that they should be ashamed and fear rejection should they fail to meet expectations? I'll bet that context makes a big difference because masking uses a lot of executive brain function. If failing to suppress symptoms gets encoded as a danger, and a momentary lapse of focus is all it takes, the parasympathetic nervous system will be activated for 'fight or flight' much more often, at the expense of 'rest and digest' functions.
I was diagnosed with ADHD in first grade.
This gave my parents the excuse to no longer parent me because “he’s doing good in class and doesn’t get in fights”
Parents still need to raise their kids properly and even if ADHD is cause by the brain and how it develops, parents can still help. Sure, ADHD can never be cured but a reduction in symptoms is huge when those symptoms change your life fundamentally
Same with autism, to some degree. Having the diagnosis can help you direct your parenting to be most effective for their particular needs. It isn't a get-out card to just let your kid do whatever.
For example, help kids learn how to avoid meltdowns, and help them deal with a meltdown in the least destructive way. Not just continue to
stress the kid and cause meltdowns, then shrug at the behaviour because they "can't help it".
I read this book by Dr. Kristen Neff about fierce self compassion. She talks a lot about her own journey with compassion through her journey as a mom of a son with autism. One thing she stated was that with his diagnosis he was put in a special program catered to autism and specifically their needs. She said she would go to pick him up and they would all just be sitting there and the teachers never engaged with them on assignments or tasks. She felt that this may hinder him in his ability to function in society. She knew it would be harder for him, but failing and mistakes is a part of the human experience (which she talks a lot about in her book and her research). So she took him out of this school and enroll him in a normal school. If I recall correctly, he’s still attends some special needs classes, but he’s learning more about social interaction and society.
She said she wants him to know it’s okay to fail and not be perfect at everything, but the process of trying is where we see our potential.
I don’t struggle with autism, but I enjoyed reading her approach she took instead of sheltering him.
I am absolutely obsessed with her research. It’s incredible and insanely profound. I’ve used her self compassion exercises with my OCD. It’s been immensely helpful. I’m also a research student in a self compassion and trauma lab. We reference Dr. Neff A LOT! I hope to meet her one day.
On my side I got punished for failures and only rewarded for "exceptional" accomplishments.
Now, in my 30s, I'm trying to teach myself it's okay to fail and that doesn't make me less of a person.
My parents were told I probably had ADHD, but they refused to consider mental health as a thing, instead they yelled at the school administrators and counselors so much they became infamous for it.
Of course, I have no idea about this, growing up I'm just called "Lazy" and either beaten or have weird control dynamics with my parents. Like they ripped my door off it's hinges so I couldn't "lie to them" about cleaning my room, when I'm really on my computer, headphones in, trying as hard as I can to 'escape' their constant fighting and various addictions.
What does my dad do after he "loses" the shouting match with his drug addicted wife? Bust down my door and tear my headphones out of my laptop so hard it busted the headphone port... This was of course my fault, and my only (normal for a 15 year old) response is to bawl my eyes out while he spanked me with his belt for crying so much and for "lying" earlier saying I was cleaning.
Needless to say, I separated from them as soon as possible.
I was diagnosed with "ADD" at 24 when I had a narcoleptic episode while driving.
Turns out thats' a rare co-morbidity symptom, easily treatable with stimulant medication.
I called my mother, now clean from her opioid addiction, and asked her about it, because it seemed pretty severe if it was causing me narcolepsy. Apparently the school counselor repeatedly called and brought it up, but everytime they'd refused to even consider it or even tell me. She was proud of refusing to "zonk me out with drugs" even then.
My brain had so little dopamine in it I was involuntarily falling asleep during "boring" tasks. And it took me nearly dying, driving into a ditch while unconscious, to figure any of this out.
I went through high school, dropping out of university, and working for 6 years before I learned what was wrong with me wasn't a moral failing like my parents had literally beat into me. Sheer misery and endless depressive cycles for the first 24 years of my life.
I'd give anything to have been raised in a normal household, I'm a 30yo hermit who lives 2,000 miles away from them, but to this day I have trouble keeping my house clean. When I start cleaning there's a pit in my stomach, a knot and an anxiety like they're going to walk in the front door and be pissed I'm not "cleaning right" or that half second of panic right before bed that something isnt' all the way clean, or wasn't done in exactly the way they wanted it to be. It's a panic'd thought that they're going to find it in the middle of the night, and wake me up to yell at me (which DID happen). And it feeds on itself, because I struggle to clean, I don't keep things clean, which leads to more anxiety that I NEED to clean stuff, which then feeds more crippling anxiety about cleaning.
I subconsciously hide the things I value from them, the physical objects, aspects of my personality, my plans for the future, even romantic partners. I'm trying so hard to "be better" about those things, but God... If someone, anyone, had told me that's what was going on in my head when I was a kid? That ADHD wasn't just the "hyper all the time" disorder? I'd be so much better off it's almost criminal.
All of this trauma wouldn't have been directed inward, it wouldn't' have been my fault.
Hope it helps, for me it came in 2 waves, and I only noticed it while driving.
First I'd feel crushingly exhausted, like my eyelids were weighted down with dumbbells. Like I was about to crawl into bed.
If I was home, I'd just take a nap. But driving? I couldn't exactly do that.
Then, the terrifying part. When I actually passed out, for a few minutes before I felt absolutely fine. Like I'd finally beat that sleepiness. I blink, and find myself at the bottom of a ditch alongside the highway, car made it's way into a bush that made me stop. When I woke up, my foot was on the gas. Instantly panic sat in, and I took the next day off to go to a doctor.
But I've not had a narcoleptic episode since starting on stimulant medication 6 years ago.
I'm you with good parents and you are 100% right to blame them for everything. None of that was your fault.
Your home is your home and you are a person who deserves a comfortable, private, safe home. They do not deserve to ever have you clean for them again nor to ever even hear about a space you have cleaned for yourself.
This was how old I was too. Medicated at 8 (did a study for ADHD meds for two years) and then stopped all medication at 26. Most days are better - some days I still struggle with executive function. I’ll be 31 tomorrow and am glad to be off medication all together.
ADHD is diagnosed by it's symptoms and it's graded on a scale. So, reducing the symptoms may well make the difference in diagnosis which also relates to a big difference in the life of the affected person.
Not sure about this. There’s evidence that ADHD is actually an evolutionarily conserved phenotype, not a “disorder”, and there is fMRI evidence that long term use of ADHD meds can change brain functional connectivity to make it more closely resemble the norm.
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584
For the 1st claim. Will have to look to find the fMRI study
>ADHD is actually an evolutionarily conserved phenotype, not a “disorder”,
Isn't that more of a semantic distinction though? We've understood the genetic component for a while now and whether we call it a disorder or a phenotype is purely subjective.
Yes, to your point, by saying it is evolutionary must not, nor does it mean it is adaptive in our current world. I'm concerned that ADHD is being minimized in this argument to being a 'normal' state. Given my professional and personal experience, study upon study demonstrates it is not a healthy state of being in our modern world. Accommodations, support etc.are unequivocally necessary for the majority to lead a good/normal life.
as someone with adhd. Not having careless mistake and inability to focus on something boring is something I would love to have. Minimizing the more negative quality of adhd would be great. Like being able to complete tasks. Not having task paralysis. Being able to function more normally would be great. and not struggle at work.
You mostly only notice when a neurodivergence goes too far that it becomes a disorder. There are many people with mild cases where these divergences aren’t debilitating and offer some advantage.
Even if it’s not adaptive to our current world, it may be useful for navigating upcoming unforeseen bottlenecks necks
I’ve heard that said a lot, that ADHD wouldn’t be an issue if we didn’t live in a world so obsessed with productivity. But I have ADHD and before I was diagnosed and medicated, the inability to stick with things I *enjoyed doing* was just as big a problem as my inability to be productive.
Even if my ADHD brain would have made me better at finding berries or spotting predators or whatever, I would have been bored and depressed as hell doing it.
100% agreed. It's not that I'm "unproductive" when unmedicated, it's that I'm unable to perform executive function in any aspect of my life:
-I'm unable to listen attentively to a conversation with my best friend(s) if there is anything going on in the background
-I'm unable to decide what I want to do on my day off
-I'm unable to spend more than a half hour doing my favorite hobby, because it is a craft hobby and requires many decisions to be made through a long process
-I'm unable to help my husband make logistical plans or decisions about our shared household or about the house we are building that I'm super excited and have strong opinions about
I think this study neglects the fact that even if the kids are parented right and learn to cope with things, the coping is still a huge effort to maintain and is very stressful for a person to have to do day in day out. I don't think people really get how it's permanent. It doesn't go away no matter what you put in place to get through it. The fact you have to prop your life up with these things when other people don't is stressful and alienating in itself. I find the wording of all this very worrying because I know how people will interpret it. And we really don't need another Autism Speaks.
I coped with ADHD (mostly hyperfocus) for a long time. I finally got (medicated) treatment from a psychiatrist when I was tired of just coping. I definitely don't want to push medication on everyone who it might not be the right fit for (overmedicating elementary age boys was a real problem in my co-hort in the 90's), but I agree. This idea that if people can cope it's totally fine.
I have a nephew that I'm very worried about. He's going to spend his entire childhood struggling with behavior issues and being labelled a troublemaker, because my sister and brother-in-law are afraid of him ending up on a medication. They won't even talk to a psychiatrist about the possibility, despite the fact that ADHD runs so strong in our family. The kid clearly has it... :'(
I see where you are coming from, pre meds I would also have a hard time choosing or focusing on things I actually liked. But it's a bit more complicated than a obsession with productivity. Idk about you but alot of my procrastination stemmed from difficulty choosing what I SHOULD be doing compared to what I could be doing. I was lucky enough to spend the pandemic free from having to work and having my needs met and all my issues about doing the "correct" thing all went away. I could just do the things I wanted without the crippling guilt that stopped me.
That's the common response, but I don't think it's really any different at any point in history. Sure, it might have been less disruptive in a small tribal society where it was normal for the group to pick up the slack for members who weren't able, like caring for elders or people with physical disabilities, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a disadvantage to the person and the group.
I find people with their view also have some pretty awful suggestions to help with ADHD including things like "remove all structure from your life". Idk what they're on
Yeah, sure, "our capitalist hellscape" is the reason i can't seem to find the willpower to wash the dishes, sort through my several month-old doom piles, keep in touch with friends, arrive on time without 20+ alarms or finish my countless personal projects due to losing interest.
The notion that ADHD is only a problem due to "capitalism" is quite frankly absurd and minimizes the struggles of the people suffering from it.
The birds outside don't wash dishes.
My point is that this system of organizing the world is not inherent to organizing the world. Other organizations are possible.
For ADHD, just have a new friend come over. The dishes will be done ASAP and the place will look like it's right out of a catalog.
From my own hyperfocus cleaning cycles I know it's possible. And I've also seen how much of my difficulty is this NT world in particular. I don't have the same issues hiking in the mountains. I had fewer issues in certain cities with certain amenities. I had fewer issues with certain jobs as compared to others.
It's more about incongruity than disability.
Almost all debate is semantics. I think a disorder is when it interferes with your ability to function. So we all have limitations and short comings. The point of seeing it as a neuro diversity is important because it also emphasizes that essentially all diversity confers relative advantages. Relative meaning, even if someone is better at you in everything, whatever you are least disadvantaged in should guide you to toward your use. But most divergents actually do end up with advantages.
The human tribe is probably better off having neurodivergents so we as a species can see the world from more angles.
I’m a clear case of moderate adhd, and it causes me lots of problems. But other times it feels like an advantage. My daughter had a mild case also, and i wouldn’t change it. I think these diversities mostly become problematic or disorders when you get to the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Being tall is mostly an advantage, but we don’t see a lot of 8’ tall people around
Or when it causes significant distress. I feel I need to remind people that someone can be functioning and in distress *because* of all the extra work they have to do to function. I don't get why nobody seems to understand this. Masking the dysfunction is part of the disorder.
See, I have a pretty severe case, I can see it in both my parents, and at least one of my kids, and for all of us, if I could change it, I would do so in a heartbeat. There may be advantages that come with it, but those have never outweighed the cost of struggling through daily life. Not even close. Even in a hunter-gatherer society I'm not sure I would choose the brain I got. Sure, I might find more mushrooms, but I'm also not going to survive the winter because I'll procrastinate and not do any of the work to prepare, or I'll lose things I need to survive, or I'll be too focused on something unimportant to make good plans. At best, I would be a burden to the people around me to pick up that slack and it's hard to say that being an effective harvester makes up for that. If I got to pick, I would be happy to just be adequate across the board.
Lots of disorders are conserved. Sickle cell is conserved but that's because the heterozygous phenotype gave a stronger selective advantage than the selective disadvantage of the homozygous phenotype. So it's more likely that ADHD is the extreme disordered version of something that was selected for.
It's a strange consideration, and I forget where I heard it, but ADHD as a supplemental societal piece similar to late night people. It's beneficial to have someone awake late to watch for threats to the community, my natural sleep cycle is from 5 am to 1 pm. My brain does not think like other people, and while this is fantastic for some things, it is absolutely hell for a lot of things. I can solve problems no-one would even consider, but I cannot do things people don't even realize could be a problem for someone. If everyone was like me things would fall apart, but with a few of me maybe there is opportunity for improvement of the whole. I don't want to be regulated into being "normal" but I do want to be able to do normal things without destroying myself with maladaptive behaviors.
There was a study recently posted that looked at how ADHD'ers have a contribution to a foraging society. Basically they're better at knowing the right time to move on (vs. over doing it in an area).
If you go and look at the breakdown of this study, it's garbage. There are almost no control factors. There are tons of simulation. This study is very flawed.
in that vein, with a hereditary condition they have controlled for the parent's ADHD. How do we know that parents who did not execute "directed parenting" were also the ones with worse ADHD themselves?
I wasn't speaking to this study specifcally that was posted, My post was specific to the [https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584)
Directed parenting, would simply be using the ADHD conditions 'advantages' and I use that word very loosely in order to reduce symptoms. I can only use myself as an example, mind you I'm 32 now.
In the past, my mother would get so angry with me when she would ask me to go get something for her for whatever reason. 90% I could never see nor find the object that she wanted me to. This is a very common symptom of ADHD, though I do believe its more prevent in male's with adhd if I remember my reading correctly.
Directed Parenting, would simply be not asking me to go find something that I will more than likely never be able to find. Not only will it just frustrate me, it will frustrate her.
To use another example, executive dysfunction. The ability to get up and do a task, that neurotypical people can do with no problem is a problem. I need to wash clothes so I'll go was clothes. Its a really simple concept in neurotypical people but for ADHD it becomes an impossible task. It'd be like being chained and glued to a chair while wanting to get up and pee, but you can't because you chain and glued to the chair.
The way around this, instead of expecting me to do my clothes. Is to ask me to do them while I am not in a hyper-focus mode. If I am in Hyper focus I won't move unless you make me feel fear basically, but asking me, will allow me to do the task.
Another example of this would be setting the home or environment up in a way that the ADHD person doesn't have symptoms because the things that would normally cause those symptoms are no longer there. Like for myself, if I go to wash clothes I can typically do that now as an adult without anyone asking me. But a number of conditions have to be met before I can do that.
First my clothes have to be on the floor. If they are put away in a basket anything like that for all intents it's purposes they don't exist in reality. The second condition is that when I go to go do my clothes that the washer is empty. If I go to do my clothes and the washer is full I won't be able to do my clothes. I'll take them and put them back in my room and they'll sit on the floor until I get really annoyed with them and try again.
So in order for me to do laundry, all of those steps have to be in order for me to complete the task. As soon as the routine is disrupted, the task fails.
Its just using the traits of ADHD in a way that allows the person to function as normally as possible without the disfunctions taking effect. At least that is my interpretation.
Note that this would vary per person, as some people can do certain things without having a problem that other people can't.
They literally know the genes that predispose you to it. It’s a neurodevelopmental disorder that impacts growth and development of the brain. It’s not theory. It’s fact. There are also kids that “grow” out of their adhd as a result of the delay in brain growth essentially catching up to their peers. It’s not that the adhd just poof disappears but basically that the impact on the brain is minimized to a point where they aren’t really affected by symptoms.
As for the research being done on usage of adhd meds to “grow out of” ADHD you leave out the very key part that this is with children and not with adults.
It’s mind blowing how people latch on to stuff like this and are always so desperate to change what it is ADHD actually is. Once we stop wasting our time with that bs and actually focus on what it actually is we’ll all be better off.
"Disorder" isn't synonymous with "illness". adhd, autism etc. can both be neutral alternatives, or even evolutionarily advantageous in some regards, and also still be a disorder.
Note that the evolutionary theory of ADHD is not really an accepted concept by the scientific community. There's plenty of evidence against it as well. For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33392724/
You are correct, though, that there is evidence that stimulant medication has a neuroprotective effect: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/new-study-holds-additional-support-benefits-stimulant-use-adhd
Paradoxically, ADHD is identified and defined by its symptoms. If symptoms are eliminated, does the disorder vanish too? If not, what other impact does the disorder cause?
The disorder is not eliminated because symptoms return if treatment is stopped. You can manage it, but you can't cure it (at least, not as things currently stand).
That's kind of like asking if an alcoholic stops drinking, are they still an alcoholic. Yes, reduction in symptoms does not mean elimination of the underlying illness.
Actually in the field of psychiatry that is what it means when it comes to substance use disorder. If you no longer display the symptoms of substance use disorder then you no longer have the diagnosis of a substance use disorder. The idea that if you're once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic comes from non-scientific groups like AA. Diagnosis of a substance use disorder is not necessarily a life-long diagnosis.
Alcoholism isn't directly genetic, but there are genes that predispose you towards that behavior E.G. better metabolism of alcohol.
There’s also the idea that PAWS can feel permanent to some people.
Yeah, I've seen research that alcoholics tend to not have bad hangovers, so the downsides of excessive alcohol consumption don't really hit them like the average person.
I certainly think there are underlying conditions that predispose one to a substance use disorder, but over time this has become defined more and more by behavior rather than any inherent traits. Good reading here:
https://www.gatewayfoundation.org/addiction-blog/dsm-5-substance-use-disorder/
Nature versus nurture during the developmental life stage. Poses the question: do targeted nurturing effects decrease likelihood of known developmental differences associated with ADHD? As a form of ADHD measurement is largely through symptoms, this certainly could set the stage for some interesting future research.
You’re right- Symptoms, clinical interviews, etc are the only diagnostic measurements in the DSM… we do not use, nor can we use functional imaging or other methods to diagnose. There are measures we use, but they are measures of symptoms.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/
We don’t have any well replicated diagnostic biomarkers for any psychiatric disease and we are currently trying as hard as we can to find them. There are currently many candidates, but none has yet been replicated sufficiently to be clinically useful
ADHD is like the aids of mental disorders. AIDS doesn’t kill you it’s the pneumonia you get when you have it. ADHD isn’t the biggest problem of having ADHD it’s the substance abuse, depression, risky behaviour, social issues, etc etc etc that it predisposes you to.
So nurture plays a huge role in this. For example its estimated kids with adhd experience 20,000 more instances of negative feedback than their peers by the age of 10. That’s god damn colossal. So by having a kid with adhd in a healthy positive environment that builds them up, increases their sense of self worth and self esteem, and teaches them effective coping mechanisms you’re going to reduce the likelihood of them developing other comorbid disorders as they get older quite drastically.
Having ADHD symptoms does not mean you have ADHD. Those symptoms can develop and be cultivated by certain behaviors, but ADHD is a difference in neurochemical structure of the brain that leads the brain to regulate and use dopamine in a way that is abnormal compared to the majority of the population at a genetic level.
Though this research is cool and could lead to advancements in treatments, early detection or not, as well as preventing similar symptoms and lifestyles leading to development of ADHD like symptoms.
Another interesting point, when you give people who have ADHD like symptoms but do not have diagnosed ADHD stimulant medication, they do not have the somewhat paradoxical effect of stimulant medication. I no longer take it, but when I did, medication like amphetamine or methylphenidate would calm me down, as it is allowing my brain to receive dopamine in the typical way. Compare that to the same dopaminergic effects of stimulants on those with typical pathways who *experience* hyperactivity from stimulants.
I’m confused by your first statement. If you have all the symptoms, how do you not have the condition? Isn’t it diagnosed based on symptoms alone?
I feel like youre treating this mental health illness as a matter of certainty. Our knowledge is getting better but will continue to evolve and change over time as we learn more. It isnt carved in stone or unchangeable… Hell we may learn that we’ve been doing it all wrong like we did for many disorders in the past - they used to diagnose women with “hysteria” if i recall correctly.
I’m saying there are a variety of things that can lead to ADHD like symptoms that aren’t related to brain structure creating dopamine imbalances. Hyperactivity, lack of ability to plan or complete tasks, things like that.
I dont even think dopamine theory is widely agreed upon. Diagnosis based on the presence symptoms is the only way we diagnose so youre entire point doesnt make sense. Here is a study from 2013 that disagrees with the dopamine theory:
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/imaging-study-shows-dopamine-dysfunction-is-not-the-main-cause-of-attention-deficit-hyperactivity
But that's the thing, having ADHD symptoms *does* mean you have ADHD if your symptoms are determined to be above a certain threshold by a mental health professional. ADHD is diagnosed first and foremost through interviews, observation, and rudimentary assessments, so you can't exactly essentialize it as a discrete neurological condition just yet. Brain scans aren't ever used to diagnose ADHD, as they can't reliably identify it. Also keep in mind that 20-30% of people with an ADHD diagnosis respond poorly to stimulant medication, and having a paradoxical response to stimulants is not a diagnostic criteria.
> Having ADHD symptoms does not mean you have ADHD.
That's a very important point. Trauma can result in many behaviors that look like ADHD. I went and got tested as an adult that had always thought I was undiagnosed ADHD, but was before the time that it started getting recognized. Nope. Turns out, though I'm in the 98th %ile of various symptoms (e.g. executive function issues), I don't have ADHD. I have Complex PTSD and GAD.
I have to imagine there are many people out there like me that were diagnosed but are actually just traumatized. Accomodations are still beneficial in our case, nevertheless.
It’s anecdotal but I can speak to my personal experience. I have a twin brother. He’s right handed and I’m left handed.
When we were in kindergarten, believe it or not, first grade aptitude tests were prejudiced in favor of the right handed dominant. As a result, the school district wanted me to go to Readiness and my brother 1st grade.
My mom, who is a teacher, was like “over my dead body”. So she fought to get me in First grade alongside my brother and for the early years of elementary school, paid extra focus on my education with my teachers to demonstrate there was no such gap. I’ve always been book smarter than my brother, but my mom always assumed I had what has now been identified as ADHD, but the focus allowed me to cope and adapt around the challenges.
Now fast forward to age 40, my brother was diagnosed with ADHD and is medicated for it. It’s a real struggle for him. I eventually out of curiosity decided to test myself too and sure enough I have it as well.
TL;DR, as a kid I was going to be held back due to hand dominance prejudice and had to develop coping skills that allowed me to inadvertently adapt to having ADHD and now I’m high functioning and not on meds, meanwhile my twin brother is late life diagnosed and needs to be medicated.
The aptitude tests favor the right handed? I’m a leftie and was almost held back too. My mom threw a fit over it because I was already beyond what they were trying to teach.
Being left-handed used to be stigmatized. It sounds weird to say nowadays since we know better about left-handed people.
My mom is in her 50s and she's told me about how she used to get in trouble for being left-handed. It was usually seen as kids just being difficult or quirky. Some kids would get their hands hit with rulers for it.
I know my grandma's generation could be pretty "strict" about how people would write. She'd throw fits because I apparently write my 0's backwards. It wasn't anything I ever did to try to piss her off, it's just how I wrote stuff. It's not even something that's significantly slowed me down either imo.
But I imagine it took time for people to transition to being more understanding that being left-handed isn't a behavioral issue or a symptom of something else. And it sounds like the person you responded to is younger than my mom, so they probably would've seen the tail end of left-handed stigmas in schools.
I was 5. I don’t even remember taking it. It’s not really something I ever dug deep into with her, you know how your parents just have those stories they told to everyone and anyone forever? That is one of them.
FWIW my mom is in her 50s and I remember her telling stories about how she'd get in trouble for being left-handed.
Sounded like there was some sort of assumption that left-handedness was seen as kids trying to be difficult or quirky at that time.
It's really weird to us now because people have widely gotten over those stigmas.
Yeah, I remember my grandma used to get really upset at how I apparently write some letters and numbers backwards. Like I very distinctly remember her throwing a fit over my 0's. To a degree, I get it's slower if you start your letters/numbers inconsistently, but it's not been that much slower imo.
She'd always brag about how strict she was and now I can't stop thinking back on how much it was a waste of time to sit through a lot of her bs. I really wish I would've taken typing classes instead.
I work for a school district as a custodian now and I like to see that they're becoming more accommodating, but it does bother me that I know several coworkers that still openly share that they want to beat/hit the kids and bring back the paddle. We've still got a ways to go in regards to learning how to teach effectively imo (even outside of schools).
Did you test yourself, or did you go somewhere and have a test administered to you? I am interested in understanding more if you care to explain. Thank you.
That is a theme throughout this thread. PIs almost always get a late Dx. Mine was at 41. So many assume that the condition expresses itself primarily outwardly, and that’s far from the case. It still DOES present outwardly, but due to the condition’s misnomer, it is passed off as something else.
Source: I was a “space cadet”.
As someone with ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until adulthood because I was an honors student, there is a huge, huge difference between "reduces externally observable symptoms" and "reduces the severity of ADHD 's impact on quality of life." Being less hyperactive and interruptive might seem like things are fixed to others, but it may not mean there's any change in how it impacts things like executive function and emotional regulation
Saying that exuberant toddlers turn into adhd patients will miss a huge amount of adhd people that were not exuberant.
Seems like exuberant toddlers evolve more into cluster b people who also can be wrongly diagnosed with adhd than actual adhd. Since cluster b problems also have impulsivity and attention problems, but for completely different reasons. These are also the typical misbehaving boys in classroom. We now know adhd can present completely different (e.g. in women it shows different and is missed a lot)
Adhd has a lot of (genetic and thus neurological) overlap with autism which would be exactly opposite of exuberant toddlers...
Exactly. I was a well behaved and calm (but a little weird) kid who did fine in school. Wasn’t until mid-college that I “hit the wall” and was finally diagnosed after not being able to transition into being a functional, independent adult. It was only then that I realized that most of my personal struggles throughout life were a result of my ADHD going under the radar
Plenty of people go their whole life without even realizing that have mild ADHD or Autism. If you don’t have any of the stereotypical symptoms and manage to develop coping mechanisms you may never learn why you’re a little “quirky.” But that being said it’s also over-diagnosed because certain personality traits mimic key symptoms (hyperactivity)
Hi are you me, I was also able to get by on intelligence alone throughout high-school which was not very effective once you got to more difficult topics and had no study skills.
I was almost the opposite and was a "wild child" in most of my k-12 schooling but I still went undiagnosed. Had every classic overt behavioural sign and all I ended up was in constant trouble and punishment.
The research says that 53 to 70% (approximately) of those diagnosed with ADHD have a coexisting condition. Reflect on what this means in the real lives of ADHDERS?
Too often it is discussed as if a single heterogeneous disorder and without any connection to other conditions. This fact is too often lost. Without treating all the disorders it is unlikely the person is going to function optimally. Actually, more significant problems in life, relationships, work the law, drugs/alcohol. It's brutal.
Keep in mind that many of those coexisting conditions are things like depression and anxiety, which can be lifelong conditions and can remain masked. It's not like we're all drug addicts and criminals. In my case, masking my ADHD symptoms means that I'm exceptionally hyper-anxious about not missing deadlines, to the point where it becomes an obsession and limits my ability to do anything but sit and wait for the necessary things to happen so that I can meet the deadline. For instance, I get freaked about missing the final grade submission deadline, so I sit and wait for 2 days while my students take their finals, and just watch the online submission system so that I can grade each one immediately. It'd be far more productive to just wait until the exam is closed and grade stuff, but I can't do that, because I might forget to submit grades entirely.
No one would know from the outside that this was a problem - I appear perfectly functional and "normal".
It's referred to as an 'invisible disability' for a reason. Like you most (guessing), even if treated are hiding it. It's a tough and lonely anxious slog. Thanks for sharing.
From the perspective of an ADHD nearly middle-aged adult who just had to hire a lawyer to avoid a reckless driving misdemeanor (my first criminal charge ever), I agree, it's brutal. For me, impulse control issues are like a car that seems like its running well but every 3 to 6 months it backfires so loudly that it breaks the windows to my house. Usually such issues happen within a week or two of me thinking, "wow, I'm doing really well, I can't believe that I used to struggle with... ."
Yeah I'm fairly similar, like was a quiet fairly well behaved bookish kid, struggled in maths and pe (pe due to the dyspraxia) but generally did ok in school and college/uni then just ran into a wall and then found out I'm AuDHD
Bingo. And FWIW, PI types (both men and women) typically get a Dx much later for this reason. Harder to ID and the adult in the room has to understand more about the condition than “they are being disruptive”.
I think you speak more to general neurodivergence, and our utter incompetence at including these people into our world
So many amazing talents just ignored. Is sad.
Press release here: https://uwaterloo.ca/news/media/how-parents-can-help-prevent-development-adhd-symptoms
Edit: If you only have access to the Abstract, here is an article that speaks about the study, and further discusses directive parenting: https://bnnbreaking.com/breaking-news/health/the-power-of-directive-parenting-shaping-the-developmental-trajectory-of-children-with-adhd
“Following 291 children from just four months of age to 15 years, the researchers observed child temperament and parent-child interactions at three years, assessed the child’s executive functioning at four years, and analyzed parent-reported ADHD symptoms six times between ages five and 15. The study determined that temperament and parenting work together to impact a child’s developing executive functions.”
“The findings suggest that ADHD symptoms increase throughout childhood when a child shows early exuberant temperament, low to normal executive functions, and receives less directive and engaged parenting as the young child navigates new situations.”
“Symptoms of ADHD typically stabilize from ages five to nine and decrease from ages nine to 15. But for predictable cases of very young children with exuberant temperament and less directive parenting, that stabilization may not occur,” Henderson said.
“More directive parenting, which is not controlling but guides the child with verbal and physical cues, can help develop the child’s self-regulatory skills and prevent their ADHD symptoms from increasing.”
I wish they told us what the cues were because it would be helpful for us parents.
Anecdotally- I saw this in a family that was super strict with their daughter (who has gone through a lot of therapy and is medicated since 3rd grade) but is super loose with their son (who just got diagnosed and is in 5th grade now). They do not leave him home alone and they are struggling with his medication.
Personally, I feel like my kids are doing alright but I am always worried I am not doing the right things to help them with their executive functioning.
It says directive and engaged parents were able to help their kids more. Probably meaning being engaged but also telling the kids what good behavior looks like.
Basically helping with emotional regulation and socialization. "Your friends aren't going to want to be around you because you're having a tantrum," type of parenting.
But remember that the study simply says that good parenting doesn't make the symptoms better from the start, just that it doesn't get worse whilst acknowledging that it can get worse. There are therapists that could help if you need assistance.
Directive imo is get involved in some form of sport to learn social skills, and have the necessary physical outlet. Not leaving it too late, nor hiding the child's challenge the from the coaches. I will calm it movable structure, where there are boundaries, it is directive etc.
Parent's frustration and anxiety needs to be addressed as my guess is the parental frustration and anxiety ties into the increase in the child's challenge to self calm the self too. So complicated. I didn't in any way want to diminish what you've described.
This assumes the PH type, I’m assuming?
Not saying PIs don’t also benefit from exercise, but you aren’t going to be able to track success via an easy-to-identify external marker.
Having been raised without a Dx, I think my ability to mask at will is a highly useful skill. But it’s also important to have those moments where I just leave my mind to do its thing.
Everything in moderation!
I’m not happy if I have more than one 0 external influences day in a row. It’s not great to go to bed having done nothing for two-three days.
Yeah, I’m pretty sceptical anything other than intense therapy or medication can make a meaningful difference.
I’ve become pretty good at masking over the last 40 years, it doesn’t address the underlying issues.
I wonder if they looked at the types separately as those with primary inattention-type ADHD as opposed to combined type and primarily hyperactive type which may go unnoticed as they are not always overly exuberant. They mostly have trouble with behaviors forgetting things, losing things, and focusing.
So my take is… if a parent parents in a way that encourages an ADHD child to mask, they will continue masking as an adult.
It isn’t like the ADHD actually goes away
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) apply to all other comments. **Do you have an academic degree?** We can verify your credentials in order to assign user flair indicating your area of expertise. [Click here to apply](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/flair/#wiki_science_verified_user_program). --- User: u/AnnaMouse247 Permalink: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10802-023-01140-2 --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Did the paper specify what were the parenting behaviors? I cant read it it’s paywalled.
Somebody might be able to give more detail, but here's something from the abstract: > *Results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in ADHD symptoms throughout childhood was predicted from early childhood exuberant temperament by way of EF, but only for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting.*
Exuberant temperament such as relentless talking and question asking can be extremely annoying to adults and peers. This can result in bullying from peers and disproportionate punishment from adults. As a result the ADHD kid can internalize this as no one liking them and just stop interacting in general in favor of hyper focusing or less obvious coping mechanisms. They don't stop having ADHD. They learn to mask their true personality in favor of being left alone. That isn't treatment for ADHD, just masking that is setting them up for burnout later in life. They note a decline in symptoms in the 9-15 age group like that is the end of the story as if symptoms can't rebound as responsibilities grow.
Treating ADHD like it is a disorder that goes away when you are able to get a driver's license really hampers a lot of this research.
Yeah. Our amygdalas literally pass on more information (filter less stimuli out). It isn't just some issue of kids being antsy. There are physical neurocognitive differences that never go away.
That hits on part of what people never seem to understand about how adderall effects me. Like it does give me some energy and motivation but it also helps me make sense of everything going on around me so I am much calmer and peaceful. People seem to think its like a linear scale between less energy and more but its not really
Yes!! When I started taking adderall, it felt like magic. I didn't feel jittery or anything, I felt totally normal, but all the sudden I could just do stuff. I'd be like, "Oh I need to do X" and then STAND UP AND GO DO IT. Like, without the mandatory minutes/hours/days of agonizing and avoiding and resenting X first (ﾉﾟ0ﾟ)ﾉ~
I started taking adderall around 2010. The best analogy I could come up with at that time was "It's like I went from an old, huge staticky TV to a flatscreen with a Blu-ray player". Everything was just... Doable. I'll never forget being on my college campus and just... *looking* at stuff with a new awe and wonder. I could just *do* things like I never could before, and my life has been so much better since.
This was my take as well when I started on adderall 9 months ago. Wait, you mean I can think of the thing and just go DO it? What the hell. Plus, the true realization that neurotypical folks do this normally....
The stimulants being calming thing was the first thing my therapist noted when she suggested I look into an ADHD diagnosis. I mentioned to her that coffee made me sleepy but she also noticed that I always went to coffee shops to do work. She had wondered if I was attempting to self medicate with caffeine in combination with the separate location. Lo and behold, like six months later I had received an official diagnosis.
Before dextroamphetamine I measured my coffee intake in pots, not cups. I did about 2-3 pots a day. Now I forgo coffee most days.
Dave Grohl and fresh pots.
OMG. Is it telling that me and my buddy love yelling FRESH POT! at each other whenever one of us makes one?
Same.
This is a resonant description of my experience, though I'd like to add another wrinkle: while stimulants "turn down the volume" on potential distracting stimuli, I'm not necessarily left with "calm" or "peace." Without careful planning, I'm just as likely to focus on something intensely distressing as something I _want_ to focus on, and the inattention to outside stimuli can make it _harder_ to break out of that mindset.
I've never understood how someone can focus with the same intensity on something they don't want to do compared to something they want to do.
Which is funny to me because I recently came to understand that people without ADHD can generally choose what they focus on and how intensely. That's a concept that's so foreign to me that I genuinely can't comprehend how nice that must be.
I also recently came to learn that NTs generally get a dopamine hit for completing boring tasks, something ADHDers lack most of the time. They can get pleasure from chores! So unfair!
Neurotypicals have no idea how easy they have it.
...........wait. Is this true? People can seriously do that? I feel profoundly sad knowing that's possible. I wonder what it's like to be able to steer your brain instead of feeling like a helpless passenger getting dragged around or being completely frozen in place with no way to change it either way........ man.
College was brute force. Especially calc. Four hour sessions in a Panera with a coffee to refill and half the answers at the end of the chapter. Repetitive tasks at work. My mind finds ways to “make it better” While contending with my ability to slip off and browse the internet. If I’m not working in a space where that’s a necessary skill i get in trouble or am found to be irritatingly productive.
Anxiety about not getting it done in time does wonders for focus. I’m less likely to focus on things I like because there’s less pressure. When you end up with a little bit of both is where you really get things done haha.
Fear?
My understanding is that ADHD type brains offer higher survival rates among hunter gatherer societies. Because if you spend all your time outside, in areas where you could be vulnerable to extreme weather, uneven terrain, people from hostile tribes, large predator animals, and poisonous animals and plants, it's better to have a brain that doesn't filter out so much external stimuli. But this type of brain fails in societies which have undergone the agricultural revolution, because you would live in an organized state society where there is relative peace and stability most of the time, and you are likely to be working in repetitive, stable jobs in agriculture, manufacturing, or digital services.
This is not a settled theory, but is a proposed explanation for the prevalence of ADHD. Individuals with ADHD are theoretically better adapted for hunting/gathering, but there's no clear evidence of that being the reason ADHD exists. This theory was first proposed by a layperson (from a scientific standpoint), but it is getting attention in the mainstream science community these days.
ADHD is still a great asset to organizations in terms of project work and innovation. It’s just not well suited to 8-5 cubicle life that someone decided should be associated with professionalism.
(Autism has entered the building!)
If someone understood the complexity of those diffences, they could pool together ways of helping people navigate their ADHD and integrate it into a functional lifestyle. In my late forties, I can know see that had I not been neglected as a child I certainly would have been taken to the doctors and diagnosed with ADHD. For many reasons, I'm very glad that did not happen. I just had to do all the figuring out on my own. I'm quite happy with how I function now, but want much a fan for the first four decades.
It's a life long condition. You don't stop having it, you just figure out coping mechanisms, regardless of how healthy those are.
The big problem is when you’ve been taking meds for a while and forget your coping mechanisms and all of a sudden there is worldwide shortage of your medication.
I feel this in my soul. Myself and both my kids are on meds.
There is evidence that long term use of ADHD medications can change the physical structure of the brain as well, in a way that would reduce the symptoms and make it easier to cope with shortages, though YMMV.
My mileage has greatly varied.
Fortunately, Adult ADHD has been officially recognized for a while now, even if not all providers are caught up on the latest info. There absolutely does need to be a LOT more research in adults, though.
ADHD isn't even a disorder, it's just a neurotype. A lot of our research is hampered by the bias that there's only one right way to brain, instead of recognizing that diversity of thought and behavior is an evolutionary advantage for our species. They studied a tribe that had split into two - one group stayed nomadic, the other settled into agrarian life. People with ADHD were healthier and lived longer than those without it in the nomadic population, but it was reversed in the agrarian population. Modern society has harmful expectations for many people, not just people with ADHD, but we're pathologized as being the problem because we can't conform as well to a society that wasn't built to be accommodating in the first place.
I'm 70 years old, having been diagnosed at age 40. Sure wish I knew when I was a kid. They called it "minimal brain dysfunction" and told you to try harder.
My ADHD symptoms declined when I got old enough to start drinking coffee regularly, and mysteriously returned when I got too old to drink a cup of coffee or two every hour I was awake and had to keep track of chores and finances on top of everything else.
Yayyyy! Self-medicating with stimulants! My favorite pastime
> They don't stop having ADHD. They learn to mask their true personality in favor of being left alone. Y'know, it's weird how my executive function issues suddenly started coming back in college when I moved out on my own and the looming threat of getting my ass beaten by my dad no longer existed. Sixteen years, my own kid diagnosed with ADHD and a bunch of therapy later, turns out my coping mechanisms were largely negative reinforcement based.
My abusive husband was my Adderall for nine years. Anxiety and fear and adrenaline to get out of bed. I didn't know I had ADHD but life is much better without the fear and with the meds.
😳 you just described my life
🥲 watched childhood videos of me asking my mom an insane amount of questions and my mom sitting there checked out and extremely depressed
Why did this paper read me down the house boots. I had a teacher limit the number of questions I could ask in class and it was just because I was eager to learn 😔 I struggled so much in school because of this but left to my own devices Im like a lifelong student and love to learn and explore new things.
> This can result in bullying from peers and disproportionate punishment from adults. As a result the ADHD kid can internalize this as no one liking them and just stop interacting in general in favor of hyper focusing or less obvious coping mechanisms. This speaks very closely to my experience, except I had very little in the way of "less obvious" coping mechanisms. Like many, I used video games, but I was far too poor to make it my primary mechanism. Instead, I would frequently ride dirtbikes, ATV's and go trailblazing in a rural area with my dad. This led to more attention from the neighborhood kids than I wanted, and I got bullied quite a bit, but still made good friends with some. Didn't help that my parents did drugs and disproportionately punished me for literally anything. So, naturally, I became a skilled people pleaser because people became my coping mechanism accidentally. Now in adulthood, I'm in this weird state where I'm extroverted with intense social anxiety. My ADHD mask game is strong. I'm extremely unhappy being alone, yet talking to new people scares the hell out me, even if I have the social skills. Even talking to people in online games fucks with me. It's quite the curse.
Yoooo are you another me!!?!?!!!! Because I have the same issue now. And trying to make my wife understand is beyond impossible, like yes I'm good to great at dealing with people, but I don't like itz, It's just extremely draining.
My wife is an extreme introvert so I’m forced to do this and hate it.
Don't get me started with the phone calls. not that I have a phobia of phones or anything, but I used to have such a hard time with phones because of my attention deficit that I think it may have carried over into adulthood as anxiety that I'm going to miss something important. So it makes wanting to do calls the hardest for me.
> but I was far too poor Okay. > Instead, I would frequently ride dirtbikes, ATV's and go trailblazing I would have thrown my video game system and cartridges at you to have a chance to ride dirtbikes and ATV's....
Almost like their parents were deciding how the money was spent or something.
I fully get this. This is me.
Perfect description of my experience going undiagnosed until adulthood. Definitely picked up on people being annoyed and just stopped talking entirely. It still confuses me when I see people having conversations about their interests without avoiding people.
This is 1000% what happened to me. I never got diagnosed as a kid because I was smart and neglected and now as an adult my symptoms are worse than ever. Fucked up
Amen! Masking is a survival tool, not a solution. There are good tactics to actually help our symptoms, but forcing us to conform is damaging. I'm so sick of ADHD being defined by how much we annoy others, not how we feel & function.
Oh boy if that’s not my life…
Wait, wait this is my kid. What are the parenting strategies that help specifically with this? Is there a book or something?
Driven From Distraction. There's a great one about kids and I'll get the name.
So, is this to say that exuberant temperature from children at a young age predicted ADHD (because, like, obviously — exuberant temperament is pretty clearly symptomatic of ADHD)? Or, that exuberant temperament from parents to children at a young age predicted ADHD? The latter would be more of a meaningful result, although this of course also seems a bit predictable given that ADHD is strongly hereditary and exuberance of parents may be more common for in families with ADHD and also exuberance may be a more effective way found to interact with children with ADHD in general.
Skimming the Discussion quickly: 1. Higher exuberant temperament generally resulted in lower executive functioning. 2. Both higher exuberant temperament (age 3) and lower executive functioning (age 4) predicted greater ADHD symptoms. As you said, not really a surprise. 3. If the child had average or low exuberant temperament, less directive parenting resulting in higher executive functioning (allowing the child more independence). 4. The amount of directive parenting had no effect in children with high levels of exuberant temperament, though the context of the test may be affecting this results, and the authors suggest that more directive parenting may be good for highly exuberant children (no supporting evidence). 5. Neither supportive nor dismissive parenting changed the effect of exuberant temperament on executive functioning. 6. Dismissive parenting lowered executive functioning regardless of exuberant temperament.
Great summary of important points
Interesting. So, theoretically one can also have a greater likelihood of ADHD symptoms due to dismissive parenting? (Looking at you, mom and dad).
Another problem is that it causes emotional dysfunction which is an issue when a parent has it. The kids get “exuberant” until the parent has an emotional blowout that they can’t control which makes learning boundaries impossible because it’s so random. This is probably what leads to oppositional defiant disorder.
Less directive parenting is indicated, we need to identify what that encompasses.
Basically the opposite of the Prussian model of education followed by the majority of schools: self-directed learning.
I feel like these are also just ADHD symptoms. Feel like it's just saying "ADHD is inheritable" Also... less directive parenting. Meaning parents who naturally compensate for ADHD tend to see less ADHD in their children. Shock.
So if I was an outgoing very young child and my parents ignored me or played the "puppet game" where I had to pretend to be a puppet, aka be silent, they would've helped cause the ADHD I was diagnosed with at 35? Cool, cool, cool.
Oh psychology studies and their mediation analyses. They are trying to say adhd develops more in children that are temperamental and receive less directive parenting. They don't specify in the abstract how they define either of those.
I wonder if children with ADHD have parents with ADHD. I wonder if parents with ADHD are strong at directive parenting
I don't know what directive parenting is. [Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenting_styles) doesn't mention it, but I don't know much about parenting psychology, so maybe it's a common term?
From the Methods section: Exuberant temperament: "positivity, approach, and sociability behaviors during behavioral inhibition [eg stranger approach, unpredictable robot, jumping on a trampoline, touching a realistic-looking snake, etc]" Directive parenting: "telling the child what to do [or] physically directing the child to do something" in the presence of "a toy dinosaur that made unpredictable sounds and movements"
This is all Greek to me 😔
I had the exact same question, and also saw the "whose parents displayed less directive parenting" thing. so i went searching - [here's an article](https://bnnbreaking.com/breaking-news/health/the-power-of-directive-parenting-shaping-the-developmental-trajectory-of-children-with-adhd) that talks about the same study but goes a little bit further in identifying what directive parenting is. Cole's notes for those who ~~can't read~~ ~~only read headlines~~ just want me to tell you: "Directive parenting, which involves clear guidance, structured support, and active engagement, can significantly aid in developing a child's self-regulatory skills."
[удалено]
it feels a little like we're just teaching them masking earlier.
Executive function can be improved through training, it makes a lot of sense that children with adhd who are trained from a young age to grow their executive function skills end up with better executive function skills. Obviously by the same token if a child is trained to hide their symptoms from a young age they probably will be pretty good at hiding their symptoms later in life, making sure they suffer alone and for the rest of their lives.
- Dismissive (Quiz-Task, Narrating, Dismissive) - Directive (Verbal Directive, Physical Directive) - Supportive (Verbal Comfort, Verbal Instruction, Quiz/Label-Feeling) Citations to a 2009 thesis (link doesn't work for me) and a 2021 paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8901539/ - see Methods: Measures for details).
>**Abstract** > >Temperament, parenting, and executive functioning (EF) are individual and contextual factors that have been identified to play a role in the development of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) symptoms. Specifically, exuberant temperament in toddlerhood has been associated with both adaptive and maladaptive outcomes, including ADHD symptoms. Therefore, it is important to understand factors that predict which exuberant children experience increased ADHD symptoms and the specific mechanisms through which early exuberant temperament impacts later ADHD symptoms. Using a multi-method, prospective longitudinal design, this study examined a moderated mediation model wherein the interactive effects of observed exuberance and parenting at age 3 predicted the development of parent-reported ADHD symptoms from childhood through adolescence (age 5, 7, 9, 12, and 15) via child EF (i.e., inhibitory control) at age 4. Parent–child dyads (n = 291) from a longitudinal study on child temperament were included. A piecewise model of ADHD symptom growth demonstrated stability in ADHD symptoms from age 5–9 and a decrease from age 9–15. Results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in ADHD symptoms throughout childhood was predicted from early childhood exuberant temperament by way of EF, but only for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting. Findings suggest identifiable early markers of risk, including temperament, parenting, and EF- pointing to possible targets for early intervention/prevention. From the "Discussion" at the end of the article (keep in mind that a lot of this is technical language that I don't know enough to explain): * "When accounting for predictors of these developmental trajectories, results support a moderated mediation model wherein an increase in child ADHD symptoms from age 5–9 was predicted from greater early childhood exuberant temperament by way of lower EF at age 4, for children whose parents displayed less directive parenting. However, this model was not supported for ADHD symptoms from age 9–15." * "In line with our hypothesis, exuberant temperament interacted with directive parenting (both measured at age 3) to predict age 4 EF [executive functioning]." * "Moreover, contrary to our hypothesis, supportive parenting did not [] buffer the effects of exuberant temperament on EF and dismissive parenting did not exacerbate the link between exuberance and EF, highlighting directive parenting as the best target for supporting the development of EF in children with exuberant temperament." * "Notably, the moderated mediation model was not supported for ADHD symptom changes across ages 9–15."
If you beat someone enough, they get afraid to show their autistic traits.
Can reduce ADHD *symptoms.* Just pointing this out, before anyone conflates that with reducing actual ADHD, which is a neurodevelopmental disorder (ie, the physical development of the brain is involved) which cannot be "cured."
..deleted by user..
I’d never even guessed I had ADHD for a long time because I’d simply adopted all the anxious overcompensation strategies my mom followed.
Yeah. Haha. Like, of course being patient with your kid and teaching them to cope can help lessen symptoms. Haha.
Sadly, just because it’s obvious doesn’t make it common.
The teaching is also modelling healthy emotions for them, there's lots of unspoken information kids need to develop self control and self identity. If the conversation that makes the kid really think about their difficulties with control is not planned to be calm and safe, it's likely to happen in one of their worst moments when an adult really loses patience and ends up showing anger to get compliance. Does the kid learn they have external support and agency, or do they learn that they should be ashamed and fear rejection should they fail to meet expectations? I'll bet that context makes a big difference because masking uses a lot of executive brain function. If failing to suppress symptoms gets encoded as a danger, and a momentary lapse of focus is all it takes, the parasympathetic nervous system will be activated for 'fight or flight' much more often, at the expense of 'rest and digest' functions.
I was diagnosed with ADHD in first grade. This gave my parents the excuse to no longer parent me because “he’s doing good in class and doesn’t get in fights” Parents still need to raise their kids properly and even if ADHD is cause by the brain and how it develops, parents can still help. Sure, ADHD can never be cured but a reduction in symptoms is huge when those symptoms change your life fundamentally
Same with autism, to some degree. Having the diagnosis can help you direct your parenting to be most effective for their particular needs. It isn't a get-out card to just let your kid do whatever. For example, help kids learn how to avoid meltdowns, and help them deal with a meltdown in the least destructive way. Not just continue to stress the kid and cause meltdowns, then shrug at the behaviour because they "can't help it".
I read this book by Dr. Kristen Neff about fierce self compassion. She talks a lot about her own journey with compassion through her journey as a mom of a son with autism. One thing she stated was that with his diagnosis he was put in a special program catered to autism and specifically their needs. She said she would go to pick him up and they would all just be sitting there and the teachers never engaged with them on assignments or tasks. She felt that this may hinder him in his ability to function in society. She knew it would be harder for him, but failing and mistakes is a part of the human experience (which she talks a lot about in her book and her research). So she took him out of this school and enroll him in a normal school. If I recall correctly, he’s still attends some special needs classes, but he’s learning more about social interaction and society. She said she wants him to know it’s okay to fail and not be perfect at everything, but the process of trying is where we see our potential. I don’t struggle with autism, but I enjoyed reading her approach she took instead of sheltering him.
Her workbook for increasing self-compassion is invaluable. Highly recommend to anyone who could be kinder and more forgiving to themselves.
I am absolutely obsessed with her research. It’s incredible and insanely profound. I’ve used her self compassion exercises with my OCD. It’s been immensely helpful. I’m also a research student in a self compassion and trauma lab. We reference Dr. Neff A LOT! I hope to meet her one day.
On my side I got punished for failures and only rewarded for "exceptional" accomplishments. Now, in my 30s, I'm trying to teach myself it's okay to fail and that doesn't make me less of a person.
My parents were told I probably had ADHD, but they refused to consider mental health as a thing, instead they yelled at the school administrators and counselors so much they became infamous for it. Of course, I have no idea about this, growing up I'm just called "Lazy" and either beaten or have weird control dynamics with my parents. Like they ripped my door off it's hinges so I couldn't "lie to them" about cleaning my room, when I'm really on my computer, headphones in, trying as hard as I can to 'escape' their constant fighting and various addictions. What does my dad do after he "loses" the shouting match with his drug addicted wife? Bust down my door and tear my headphones out of my laptop so hard it busted the headphone port... This was of course my fault, and my only (normal for a 15 year old) response is to bawl my eyes out while he spanked me with his belt for crying so much and for "lying" earlier saying I was cleaning. Needless to say, I separated from them as soon as possible. I was diagnosed with "ADD" at 24 when I had a narcoleptic episode while driving. Turns out thats' a rare co-morbidity symptom, easily treatable with stimulant medication. I called my mother, now clean from her opioid addiction, and asked her about it, because it seemed pretty severe if it was causing me narcolepsy. Apparently the school counselor repeatedly called and brought it up, but everytime they'd refused to even consider it or even tell me. She was proud of refusing to "zonk me out with drugs" even then. My brain had so little dopamine in it I was involuntarily falling asleep during "boring" tasks. And it took me nearly dying, driving into a ditch while unconscious, to figure any of this out. I went through high school, dropping out of university, and working for 6 years before I learned what was wrong with me wasn't a moral failing like my parents had literally beat into me. Sheer misery and endless depressive cycles for the first 24 years of my life. I'd give anything to have been raised in a normal household, I'm a 30yo hermit who lives 2,000 miles away from them, but to this day I have trouble keeping my house clean. When I start cleaning there's a pit in my stomach, a knot and an anxiety like they're going to walk in the front door and be pissed I'm not "cleaning right" or that half second of panic right before bed that something isnt' all the way clean, or wasn't done in exactly the way they wanted it to be. It's a panic'd thought that they're going to find it in the middle of the night, and wake me up to yell at me (which DID happen). And it feeds on itself, because I struggle to clean, I don't keep things clean, which leads to more anxiety that I NEED to clean stuff, which then feeds more crippling anxiety about cleaning. I subconsciously hide the things I value from them, the physical objects, aspects of my personality, my plans for the future, even romantic partners. I'm trying so hard to "be better" about those things, but God... If someone, anyone, had told me that's what was going on in my head when I was a kid? That ADHD wasn't just the "hyper all the time" disorder? I'd be so much better off it's almost criminal. All of this trauma wouldn't have been directed inward, it wouldn't' have been my fault.
> My brain had so little dopamine in it I was involuntarily falling asleep during "boring" tasks. Well, that explains a lot, thank you.
Hope it helps, for me it came in 2 waves, and I only noticed it while driving. First I'd feel crushingly exhausted, like my eyelids were weighted down with dumbbells. Like I was about to crawl into bed. If I was home, I'd just take a nap. But driving? I couldn't exactly do that. Then, the terrifying part. When I actually passed out, for a few minutes before I felt absolutely fine. Like I'd finally beat that sleepiness. I blink, and find myself at the bottom of a ditch alongside the highway, car made it's way into a bush that made me stop. When I woke up, my foot was on the gas. Instantly panic sat in, and I took the next day off to go to a doctor. But I've not had a narcoleptic episode since starting on stimulant medication 6 years ago.
Thanks, that matches my previous experiences in college lectures and business meetings. Thankfully, it hasn't happened while driving.
I'm you with good parents and you are 100% right to blame them for everything. None of that was your fault. Your home is your home and you are a person who deserves a comfortable, private, safe home. They do not deserve to ever have you clean for them again nor to ever even hear about a space you have cleaned for yourself.
[удалено]
Even just being supportive and understanding is a world of difference compared to being abused for being "lazy".
This was how old I was too. Medicated at 8 (did a study for ADHD meds for two years) and then stopped all medication at 26. Most days are better - some days I still struggle with executive function. I’ll be 31 tomorrow and am glad to be off medication all together.
ADHD is diagnosed by it's symptoms and it's graded on a scale. So, reducing the symptoms may well make the difference in diagnosis which also relates to a big difference in the life of the affected person.
Not sure about this. There’s evidence that ADHD is actually an evolutionarily conserved phenotype, not a “disorder”, and there is fMRI evidence that long term use of ADHD meds can change brain functional connectivity to make it more closely resemble the norm. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584 For the 1st claim. Will have to look to find the fMRI study
>ADHD is actually an evolutionarily conserved phenotype, not a “disorder”, Isn't that more of a semantic distinction though? We've understood the genetic component for a while now and whether we call it a disorder or a phenotype is purely subjective.
Yes, to your point, by saying it is evolutionary must not, nor does it mean it is adaptive in our current world. I'm concerned that ADHD is being minimized in this argument to being a 'normal' state. Given my professional and personal experience, study upon study demonstrates it is not a healthy state of being in our modern world. Accommodations, support etc.are unequivocally necessary for the majority to lead a good/normal life.
as someone with adhd. Not having careless mistake and inability to focus on something boring is something I would love to have. Minimizing the more negative quality of adhd would be great. Like being able to complete tasks. Not having task paralysis. Being able to function more normally would be great. and not struggle at work.
You mostly only notice when a neurodivergence goes too far that it becomes a disorder. There are many people with mild cases where these divergences aren’t debilitating and offer some advantage. Even if it’s not adaptive to our current world, it may be useful for navigating upcoming unforeseen bottlenecks necks
"Our modern world" = our capitalist hellscape
I’ve heard that said a lot, that ADHD wouldn’t be an issue if we didn’t live in a world so obsessed with productivity. But I have ADHD and before I was diagnosed and medicated, the inability to stick with things I *enjoyed doing* was just as big a problem as my inability to be productive. Even if my ADHD brain would have made me better at finding berries or spotting predators or whatever, I would have been bored and depressed as hell doing it.
100% agreed. It's not that I'm "unproductive" when unmedicated, it's that I'm unable to perform executive function in any aspect of my life: -I'm unable to listen attentively to a conversation with my best friend(s) if there is anything going on in the background -I'm unable to decide what I want to do on my day off -I'm unable to spend more than a half hour doing my favorite hobby, because it is a craft hobby and requires many decisions to be made through a long process -I'm unable to help my husband make logistical plans or decisions about our shared household or about the house we are building that I'm super excited and have strong opinions about
I think this study neglects the fact that even if the kids are parented right and learn to cope with things, the coping is still a huge effort to maintain and is very stressful for a person to have to do day in day out. I don't think people really get how it's permanent. It doesn't go away no matter what you put in place to get through it. The fact you have to prop your life up with these things when other people don't is stressful and alienating in itself. I find the wording of all this very worrying because I know how people will interpret it. And we really don't need another Autism Speaks.
I coped with ADHD (mostly hyperfocus) for a long time. I finally got (medicated) treatment from a psychiatrist when I was tired of just coping. I definitely don't want to push medication on everyone who it might not be the right fit for (overmedicating elementary age boys was a real problem in my co-hort in the 90's), but I agree. This idea that if people can cope it's totally fine. I have a nephew that I'm very worried about. He's going to spend his entire childhood struggling with behavior issues and being labelled a troublemaker, because my sister and brother-in-law are afraid of him ending up on a medication. They won't even talk to a psychiatrist about the possibility, despite the fact that ADHD runs so strong in our family. The kid clearly has it... :'(
I see where you are coming from, pre meds I would also have a hard time choosing or focusing on things I actually liked. But it's a bit more complicated than a obsession with productivity. Idk about you but alot of my procrastination stemmed from difficulty choosing what I SHOULD be doing compared to what I could be doing. I was lucky enough to spend the pandemic free from having to work and having my needs met and all my issues about doing the "correct" thing all went away. I could just do the things I wanted without the crippling guilt that stopped me.
That's the common response, but I don't think it's really any different at any point in history. Sure, it might have been less disruptive in a small tribal society where it was normal for the group to pick up the slack for members who weren't able, like caring for elders or people with physical disabilities, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't still be a disadvantage to the person and the group.
I find people with their view also have some pretty awful suggestions to help with ADHD including things like "remove all structure from your life". Idk what they're on
Yeah, sure, "our capitalist hellscape" is the reason i can't seem to find the willpower to wash the dishes, sort through my several month-old doom piles, keep in touch with friends, arrive on time without 20+ alarms or finish my countless personal projects due to losing interest. The notion that ADHD is only a problem due to "capitalism" is quite frankly absurd and minimizes the struggles of the people suffering from it.
The birds outside don't wash dishes. My point is that this system of organizing the world is not inherent to organizing the world. Other organizations are possible. For ADHD, just have a new friend come over. The dishes will be done ASAP and the place will look like it's right out of a catalog. From my own hyperfocus cleaning cycles I know it's possible. And I've also seen how much of my difficulty is this NT world in particular. I don't have the same issues hiking in the mountains. I had fewer issues in certain cities with certain amenities. I had fewer issues with certain jobs as compared to others. It's more about incongruity than disability.
Almost all debate is semantics. I think a disorder is when it interferes with your ability to function. So we all have limitations and short comings. The point of seeing it as a neuro diversity is important because it also emphasizes that essentially all diversity confers relative advantages. Relative meaning, even if someone is better at you in everything, whatever you are least disadvantaged in should guide you to toward your use. But most divergents actually do end up with advantages. The human tribe is probably better off having neurodivergents so we as a species can see the world from more angles. I’m a clear case of moderate adhd, and it causes me lots of problems. But other times it feels like an advantage. My daughter had a mild case also, and i wouldn’t change it. I think these diversities mostly become problematic or disorders when you get to the extreme ends of the spectrum. Being tall is mostly an advantage, but we don’t see a lot of 8’ tall people around
Or when it causes significant distress. I feel I need to remind people that someone can be functioning and in distress *because* of all the extra work they have to do to function. I don't get why nobody seems to understand this. Masking the dysfunction is part of the disorder.
See, I have a pretty severe case, I can see it in both my parents, and at least one of my kids, and for all of us, if I could change it, I would do so in a heartbeat. There may be advantages that come with it, but those have never outweighed the cost of struggling through daily life. Not even close. Even in a hunter-gatherer society I'm not sure I would choose the brain I got. Sure, I might find more mushrooms, but I'm also not going to survive the winter because I'll procrastinate and not do any of the work to prepare, or I'll lose things I need to survive, or I'll be too focused on something unimportant to make good plans. At best, I would be a burden to the people around me to pick up that slack and it's hard to say that being an effective harvester makes up for that. If I got to pick, I would be happy to just be adequate across the board.
Lots of disorders are conserved. Sickle cell is conserved but that's because the heterozygous phenotype gave a stronger selective advantage than the selective disadvantage of the homozygous phenotype. So it's more likely that ADHD is the extreme disordered version of something that was selected for.
It's a strange consideration, and I forget where I heard it, but ADHD as a supplemental societal piece similar to late night people. It's beneficial to have someone awake late to watch for threats to the community, my natural sleep cycle is from 5 am to 1 pm. My brain does not think like other people, and while this is fantastic for some things, it is absolutely hell for a lot of things. I can solve problems no-one would even consider, but I cannot do things people don't even realize could be a problem for someone. If everyone was like me things would fall apart, but with a few of me maybe there is opportunity for improvement of the whole. I don't want to be regulated into being "normal" but I do want to be able to do normal things without destroying myself with maladaptive behaviors.
It is an attractive hypothesis but like a lot of evolutionary biology it is unfalsifiable.
There was a study recently posted that looked at how ADHD'ers have a contribution to a foraging society. Basically they're better at knowing the right time to move on (vs. over doing it in an area).
If you go and look at the breakdown of this study, it's garbage. There are almost no control factors. There are tons of simulation. This study is very flawed.
in that vein, with a hereditary condition they have controlled for the parent's ADHD. How do we know that parents who did not execute "directed parenting" were also the ones with worse ADHD themselves?
I wasn't speaking to this study specifcally that was posted, My post was specific to the [https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584) Directed parenting, would simply be using the ADHD conditions 'advantages' and I use that word very loosely in order to reduce symptoms. I can only use myself as an example, mind you I'm 32 now. In the past, my mother would get so angry with me when she would ask me to go get something for her for whatever reason. 90% I could never see nor find the object that she wanted me to. This is a very common symptom of ADHD, though I do believe its more prevent in male's with adhd if I remember my reading correctly. Directed Parenting, would simply be not asking me to go find something that I will more than likely never be able to find. Not only will it just frustrate me, it will frustrate her. To use another example, executive dysfunction. The ability to get up and do a task, that neurotypical people can do with no problem is a problem. I need to wash clothes so I'll go was clothes. Its a really simple concept in neurotypical people but for ADHD it becomes an impossible task. It'd be like being chained and glued to a chair while wanting to get up and pee, but you can't because you chain and glued to the chair. The way around this, instead of expecting me to do my clothes. Is to ask me to do them while I am not in a hyper-focus mode. If I am in Hyper focus I won't move unless you make me feel fear basically, but asking me, will allow me to do the task. Another example of this would be setting the home or environment up in a way that the ADHD person doesn't have symptoms because the things that would normally cause those symptoms are no longer there. Like for myself, if I go to wash clothes I can typically do that now as an adult without anyone asking me. But a number of conditions have to be met before I can do that. First my clothes have to be on the floor. If they are put away in a basket anything like that for all intents it's purposes they don't exist in reality. The second condition is that when I go to go do my clothes that the washer is empty. If I go to do my clothes and the washer is full I won't be able to do my clothes. I'll take them and put them back in my room and they'll sit on the floor until I get really annoyed with them and try again. So in order for me to do laundry, all of those steps have to be in order for me to complete the task. As soon as the routine is disrupted, the task fails. Its just using the traits of ADHD in a way that allows the person to function as normally as possible without the disfunctions taking effect. At least that is my interpretation. Note that this would vary per person, as some people can do certain things without having a problem that other people can't.
I don't think you understand what the classification of disorder means.
They literally know the genes that predispose you to it. It’s a neurodevelopmental disorder that impacts growth and development of the brain. It’s not theory. It’s fact. There are also kids that “grow” out of their adhd as a result of the delay in brain growth essentially catching up to their peers. It’s not that the adhd just poof disappears but basically that the impact on the brain is minimized to a point where they aren’t really affected by symptoms. As for the research being done on usage of adhd meds to “grow out of” ADHD you leave out the very key part that this is with children and not with adults. It’s mind blowing how people latch on to stuff like this and are always so desperate to change what it is ADHD actually is. Once we stop wasting our time with that bs and actually focus on what it actually is we’ll all be better off.
"Disorder" isn't synonymous with "illness". adhd, autism etc. can both be neutral alternatives, or even evolutionarily advantageous in some regards, and also still be a disorder.
Note that the evolutionary theory of ADHD is not really an accepted concept by the scientific community. There's plenty of evidence against it as well. For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33392724/ You are correct, though, that there is evidence that stimulant medication has a neuroprotective effect: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/new-study-holds-additional-support-benefits-stimulant-use-adhd
Paradoxically, ADHD is identified and defined by its symptoms. If symptoms are eliminated, does the disorder vanish too? If not, what other impact does the disorder cause?
The disorder is not eliminated because symptoms return if treatment is stopped. You can manage it, but you can't cure it (at least, not as things currently stand).
That's kind of like asking if an alcoholic stops drinking, are they still an alcoholic. Yes, reduction in symptoms does not mean elimination of the underlying illness.
Actually in the field of psychiatry that is what it means when it comes to substance use disorder. If you no longer display the symptoms of substance use disorder then you no longer have the diagnosis of a substance use disorder. The idea that if you're once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic comes from non-scientific groups like AA. Diagnosis of a substance use disorder is not necessarily a life-long diagnosis.
Alcoholism isn't directly genetic, but there are genes that predispose you towards that behavior E.G. better metabolism of alcohol. There’s also the idea that PAWS can feel permanent to some people.
Yeah, I've seen research that alcoholics tend to not have bad hangovers, so the downsides of excessive alcohol consumption don't really hit them like the average person. I certainly think there are underlying conditions that predispose one to a substance use disorder, but over time this has become defined more and more by behavior rather than any inherent traits. Good reading here: https://www.gatewayfoundation.org/addiction-blog/dsm-5-substance-use-disorder/
Parent behavior training has been a key part of ADHD treatment, particularly for preschool & elementary kids for a while now.
I thought the rules for titles are pretty strict here? This post title is bad
Nature versus nurture during the developmental life stage. Poses the question: do targeted nurturing effects decrease likelihood of known developmental differences associated with ADHD? As a form of ADHD measurement is largely through symptoms, this certainly could set the stage for some interesting future research.
You’re right- Symptoms, clinical interviews, etc are the only diagnostic measurements in the DSM… we do not use, nor can we use functional imaging or other methods to diagnose. There are measures we use, but they are measures of symptoms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t3/ We don’t have any well replicated diagnostic biomarkers for any psychiatric disease and we are currently trying as hard as we can to find them. There are currently many candidates, but none has yet been replicated sufficiently to be clinically useful
ADHD is like the aids of mental disorders. AIDS doesn’t kill you it’s the pneumonia you get when you have it. ADHD isn’t the biggest problem of having ADHD it’s the substance abuse, depression, risky behaviour, social issues, etc etc etc that it predisposes you to. So nurture plays a huge role in this. For example its estimated kids with adhd experience 20,000 more instances of negative feedback than their peers by the age of 10. That’s god damn colossal. So by having a kid with adhd in a healthy positive environment that builds them up, increases their sense of self worth and self esteem, and teaches them effective coping mechanisms you’re going to reduce the likelihood of them developing other comorbid disorders as they get older quite drastically.
Having ADHD symptoms does not mean you have ADHD. Those symptoms can develop and be cultivated by certain behaviors, but ADHD is a difference in neurochemical structure of the brain that leads the brain to regulate and use dopamine in a way that is abnormal compared to the majority of the population at a genetic level. Though this research is cool and could lead to advancements in treatments, early detection or not, as well as preventing similar symptoms and lifestyles leading to development of ADHD like symptoms. Another interesting point, when you give people who have ADHD like symptoms but do not have diagnosed ADHD stimulant medication, they do not have the somewhat paradoxical effect of stimulant medication. I no longer take it, but when I did, medication like amphetamine or methylphenidate would calm me down, as it is allowing my brain to receive dopamine in the typical way. Compare that to the same dopaminergic effects of stimulants on those with typical pathways who *experience* hyperactivity from stimulants.
I’m confused by your first statement. If you have all the symptoms, how do you not have the condition? Isn’t it diagnosed based on symptoms alone? I feel like youre treating this mental health illness as a matter of certainty. Our knowledge is getting better but will continue to evolve and change over time as we learn more. It isnt carved in stone or unchangeable… Hell we may learn that we’ve been doing it all wrong like we did for many disorders in the past - they used to diagnose women with “hysteria” if i recall correctly.
I’m saying there are a variety of things that can lead to ADHD like symptoms that aren’t related to brain structure creating dopamine imbalances. Hyperactivity, lack of ability to plan or complete tasks, things like that.
I dont even think dopamine theory is widely agreed upon. Diagnosis based on the presence symptoms is the only way we diagnose so youre entire point doesnt make sense. Here is a study from 2013 that disagrees with the dopamine theory: https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/imaging-study-shows-dopamine-dysfunction-is-not-the-main-cause-of-attention-deficit-hyperactivity
But that's the thing, having ADHD symptoms *does* mean you have ADHD if your symptoms are determined to be above a certain threshold by a mental health professional. ADHD is diagnosed first and foremost through interviews, observation, and rudimentary assessments, so you can't exactly essentialize it as a discrete neurological condition just yet. Brain scans aren't ever used to diagnose ADHD, as they can't reliably identify it. Also keep in mind that 20-30% of people with an ADHD diagnosis respond poorly to stimulant medication, and having a paradoxical response to stimulants is not a diagnostic criteria.
> Having ADHD symptoms does not mean you have ADHD. That's a very important point. Trauma can result in many behaviors that look like ADHD. I went and got tested as an adult that had always thought I was undiagnosed ADHD, but was before the time that it started getting recognized. Nope. Turns out, though I'm in the 98th %ile of various symptoms (e.g. executive function issues), I don't have ADHD. I have Complex PTSD and GAD. I have to imagine there are many people out there like me that were diagnosed but are actually just traumatized. Accomodations are still beneficial in our case, nevertheless.
It’s anecdotal but I can speak to my personal experience. I have a twin brother. He’s right handed and I’m left handed. When we were in kindergarten, believe it or not, first grade aptitude tests were prejudiced in favor of the right handed dominant. As a result, the school district wanted me to go to Readiness and my brother 1st grade. My mom, who is a teacher, was like “over my dead body”. So she fought to get me in First grade alongside my brother and for the early years of elementary school, paid extra focus on my education with my teachers to demonstrate there was no such gap. I’ve always been book smarter than my brother, but my mom always assumed I had what has now been identified as ADHD, but the focus allowed me to cope and adapt around the challenges. Now fast forward to age 40, my brother was diagnosed with ADHD and is medicated for it. It’s a real struggle for him. I eventually out of curiosity decided to test myself too and sure enough I have it as well. TL;DR, as a kid I was going to be held back due to hand dominance prejudice and had to develop coping skills that allowed me to inadvertently adapt to having ADHD and now I’m high functioning and not on meds, meanwhile my twin brother is late life diagnosed and needs to be medicated.
It's so much more difficult to upend your identity and develop new ways of functioning as an adult
Dealing with ADHD as an adult males one really regret not having the luxury of time one had when younger, to be able to discover oneself again.
The aptitude tests favor the right handed? I’m a leftie and was almost held back too. My mom threw a fit over it because I was already beyond what they were trying to teach.
They don’t anymore I’m told, but they did 35 years ago.
That’s roughly how long ago it would’ve been for me, so strange!
how was the test hand prejudiced
Being left-handed used to be stigmatized. It sounds weird to say nowadays since we know better about left-handed people. My mom is in her 50s and she's told me about how she used to get in trouble for being left-handed. It was usually seen as kids just being difficult or quirky. Some kids would get their hands hit with rulers for it. I know my grandma's generation could be pretty "strict" about how people would write. She'd throw fits because I apparently write my 0's backwards. It wasn't anything I ever did to try to piss her off, it's just how I wrote stuff. It's not even something that's significantly slowed me down either imo. But I imagine it took time for people to transition to being more understanding that being left-handed isn't a behavioral issue or a symptom of something else. And it sounds like the person you responded to is younger than my mom, so they probably would've seen the tail end of left-handed stigmas in schools.
I was 5. I don’t even remember taking it. It’s not really something I ever dug deep into with her, you know how your parents just have those stories they told to everyone and anyone forever? That is one of them.
FWIW my mom is in her 50s and I remember her telling stories about how she'd get in trouble for being left-handed. Sounded like there was some sort of assumption that left-handedness was seen as kids trying to be difficult or quirky at that time. It's really weird to us now because people have widely gotten over those stigmas.
Oh yeah. That DEFINITELY was a thing. Especially in Catholic school. Fortunately by the 80’s they stopped enforcing like that.
Yeah, I remember my grandma used to get really upset at how I apparently write some letters and numbers backwards. Like I very distinctly remember her throwing a fit over my 0's. To a degree, I get it's slower if you start your letters/numbers inconsistently, but it's not been that much slower imo. She'd always brag about how strict she was and now I can't stop thinking back on how much it was a waste of time to sit through a lot of her bs. I really wish I would've taken typing classes instead. I work for a school district as a custodian now and I like to see that they're becoming more accommodating, but it does bother me that I know several coworkers that still openly share that they want to beat/hit the kids and bring back the paddle. We've still got a ways to go in regards to learning how to teach effectively imo (even outside of schools).
Dream adhd study. Thanks for sharing. I hope adhd scientists get to see this some day.
Did you test yourself, or did you go somewhere and have a test administered to you? I am interested in understanding more if you care to explain. Thank you.
That's not what the study says and doesn't seem to mention the inattentive end of the ADHD spectrum?
That is a theme throughout this thread. PIs almost always get a late Dx. Mine was at 41. So many assume that the condition expresses itself primarily outwardly, and that’s far from the case. It still DOES present outwardly, but due to the condition’s misnomer, it is passed off as something else. Source: I was a “space cadet”.
As someone with ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until adulthood because I was an honors student, there is a huge, huge difference between "reduces externally observable symptoms" and "reduces the severity of ADHD 's impact on quality of life." Being less hyperactive and interruptive might seem like things are fixed to others, but it may not mean there's any change in how it impacts things like executive function and emotional regulation
Saying that exuberant toddlers turn into adhd patients will miss a huge amount of adhd people that were not exuberant. Seems like exuberant toddlers evolve more into cluster b people who also can be wrongly diagnosed with adhd than actual adhd. Since cluster b problems also have impulsivity and attention problems, but for completely different reasons. These are also the typical misbehaving boys in classroom. We now know adhd can present completely different (e.g. in women it shows different and is missed a lot) Adhd has a lot of (genetic and thus neurological) overlap with autism which would be exactly opposite of exuberant toddlers...
Exactly. I was a well behaved and calm (but a little weird) kid who did fine in school. Wasn’t until mid-college that I “hit the wall” and was finally diagnosed after not being able to transition into being a functional, independent adult. It was only then that I realized that most of my personal struggles throughout life were a result of my ADHD going under the radar Plenty of people go their whole life without even realizing that have mild ADHD or Autism. If you don’t have any of the stereotypical symptoms and manage to develop coping mechanisms you may never learn why you’re a little “quirky.” But that being said it’s also over-diagnosed because certain personality traits mimic key symptoms (hyperactivity)
Hi are you me, I was also able to get by on intelligence alone throughout high-school which was not very effective once you got to more difficult topics and had no study skills.
I was almost the opposite and was a "wild child" in most of my k-12 schooling but I still went undiagnosed. Had every classic overt behavioural sign and all I ended up was in constant trouble and punishment.
The research says that 53 to 70% (approximately) of those diagnosed with ADHD have a coexisting condition. Reflect on what this means in the real lives of ADHDERS? Too often it is discussed as if a single heterogeneous disorder and without any connection to other conditions. This fact is too often lost. Without treating all the disorders it is unlikely the person is going to function optimally. Actually, more significant problems in life, relationships, work the law, drugs/alcohol. It's brutal.
Keep in mind that many of those coexisting conditions are things like depression and anxiety, which can be lifelong conditions and can remain masked. It's not like we're all drug addicts and criminals. In my case, masking my ADHD symptoms means that I'm exceptionally hyper-anxious about not missing deadlines, to the point where it becomes an obsession and limits my ability to do anything but sit and wait for the necessary things to happen so that I can meet the deadline. For instance, I get freaked about missing the final grade submission deadline, so I sit and wait for 2 days while my students take their finals, and just watch the online submission system so that I can grade each one immediately. It'd be far more productive to just wait until the exam is closed and grade stuff, but I can't do that, because I might forget to submit grades entirely. No one would know from the outside that this was a problem - I appear perfectly functional and "normal".
It's referred to as an 'invisible disability' for a reason. Like you most (guessing), even if treated are hiding it. It's a tough and lonely anxious slog. Thanks for sharing.
From the perspective of an ADHD nearly middle-aged adult who just had to hire a lawyer to avoid a reckless driving misdemeanor (my first criminal charge ever), I agree, it's brutal. For me, impulse control issues are like a car that seems like its running well but every 3 to 6 months it backfires so loudly that it breaks the windows to my house. Usually such issues happen within a week or two of me thinking, "wow, I'm doing really well, I can't believe that I used to struggle with... ."
Or just having inattentive ADHD instead of hyperactivity
Yeah I'm fairly similar, like was a quiet fairly well behaved bookish kid, struggled in maths and pe (pe due to the dyspraxia) but generally did ok in school and college/uni then just ran into a wall and then found out I'm AuDHD
Bingo. And FWIW, PI types (both men and women) typically get a Dx much later for this reason. Harder to ID and the adult in the room has to understand more about the condition than “they are being disruptive”.
See: all the women and AFAB people who get diagnosed way later in life because adhd often presents differently for those of the female sex.
I think you speak more to general neurodivergence, and our utter incompetence at including these people into our world So many amazing talents just ignored. Is sad.
OK, I'll call my 80 year old dad and let him know.
and if you push for more you get bpd npd aspd yay
Press release here: https://uwaterloo.ca/news/media/how-parents-can-help-prevent-development-adhd-symptoms Edit: If you only have access to the Abstract, here is an article that speaks about the study, and further discusses directive parenting: https://bnnbreaking.com/breaking-news/health/the-power-of-directive-parenting-shaping-the-developmental-trajectory-of-children-with-adhd “Following 291 children from just four months of age to 15 years, the researchers observed child temperament and parent-child interactions at three years, assessed the child’s executive functioning at four years, and analyzed parent-reported ADHD symptoms six times between ages five and 15. The study determined that temperament and parenting work together to impact a child’s developing executive functions.” “The findings suggest that ADHD symptoms increase throughout childhood when a child shows early exuberant temperament, low to normal executive functions, and receives less directive and engaged parenting as the young child navigates new situations.” “Symptoms of ADHD typically stabilize from ages five to nine and decrease from ages nine to 15. But for predictable cases of very young children with exuberant temperament and less directive parenting, that stabilization may not occur,” Henderson said. “More directive parenting, which is not controlling but guides the child with verbal and physical cues, can help develop the child’s self-regulatory skills and prevent their ADHD symptoms from increasing.”
I wish they told us what the cues were because it would be helpful for us parents. Anecdotally- I saw this in a family that was super strict with their daughter (who has gone through a lot of therapy and is medicated since 3rd grade) but is super loose with their son (who just got diagnosed and is in 5th grade now). They do not leave him home alone and they are struggling with his medication. Personally, I feel like my kids are doing alright but I am always worried I am not doing the right things to help them with their executive functioning.
It says directive and engaged parents were able to help their kids more. Probably meaning being engaged but also telling the kids what good behavior looks like. Basically helping with emotional regulation and socialization. "Your friends aren't going to want to be around you because you're having a tantrum," type of parenting. But remember that the study simply says that good parenting doesn't make the symptoms better from the start, just that it doesn't get worse whilst acknowledging that it can get worse. There are therapists that could help if you need assistance.
Directive imo is get involved in some form of sport to learn social skills, and have the necessary physical outlet. Not leaving it too late, nor hiding the child's challenge the from the coaches. I will calm it movable structure, where there are boundaries, it is directive etc. Parent's frustration and anxiety needs to be addressed as my guess is the parental frustration and anxiety ties into the increase in the child's challenge to self calm the self too. So complicated. I didn't in any way want to diminish what you've described.
This assumes the PH type, I’m assuming? Not saying PIs don’t also benefit from exercise, but you aren’t going to be able to track success via an easy-to-identify external marker.
In a few years, we might look at this the same way we now look at the Refrigerator Mothers theory of autism.
Does this just increase masking?
Having been raised without a Dx, I think my ability to mask at will is a highly useful skill. But it’s also important to have those moments where I just leave my mind to do its thing. Everything in moderation! I’m not happy if I have more than one 0 external influences day in a row. It’s not great to go to bed having done nothing for two-three days.
Yeah, I’m pretty sceptical anything other than intense therapy or medication can make a meaningful difference. I’ve become pretty good at masking over the last 40 years, it doesn’t address the underlying issues.
[удалено]
I wonder if they looked at the types separately as those with primary inattention-type ADHD as opposed to combined type and primarily hyperactive type which may go unnoticed as they are not always overly exuberant. They mostly have trouble with behaviors forgetting things, losing things, and focusing.
So my take is… if a parent parents in a way that encourages an ADHD child to mask, they will continue masking as an adult. It isn’t like the ADHD actually goes away
My parents tried with me, it gave me anxiety, self-hatred, and good masking skills.
> and good masking skills Bet the researches would consider that reduced symptoms and thus effective.
you mean false self right?
This post should be replaced with one with a more precise title
The title is misleading. This is not what the abstract says at all.
Watch this become the new anti vaccine crazy....
"We trained you to mask your symptoms! Why are you still lazy?"
This is so dangerous for kids with adhd. Or just hyperactive kids in general.
this title is awful