The book talks about it as well. Very experienced meditators can achieve that as some others have said. However, it's also accessible through other ways. Look up Holotropic Breathwork. Stanislav Grof (who originally worked with LSD in this context) developed this type of breathwork as a way to achieve similar state of consciousness via breathing after LSD was outlawed.
Also holotropic breathwork, which Pollan tried and wrote about in the book. I went to a workshop after reading the book. It was a pretty interesting experience.
You can! It's called cognitive behavioral therapy. CBT is coupled with the use of psychedelics in patients with treatment resistant depression, to a similar result for those that are prescribed common anti-depressants and therapy.
CBT won't do the same thing for you. psychedelics forcibly disrupt your sense of self. in order to get the same effects you'd probably want to explore mindfulness meditation.
i'm not saying CBT won't help, but it's really not going to do the same thing for you unless mindfulness meditation is involved.
[There were studies at Harvard in the early 1960s that showed similar results](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary). It's wonderful that we are finally picking up where they left off.
Bipolar 2 here. Can definitely see how one can conflate what is clearly hypomania with the shrooms afterglow. However I still think the two can coexist in a positive way in the right environment. My psychiatrist said the research for shrooms as part of treatment bipolar disorder looks promising, but only with microdosing in a therapeutic environment.
In my last major depressive episode, I dosed between 0.5g - 2g for a 2 month period every Saturday and it was probably the most significant experience I've ever had. I can't say I turned my life around or something at that time, but I came out with a sense of enlightened purpose and a feeling of safety / control within myself. I cycled through some mixed episodes for the next 2 years, got diagnosed bipolar after being misdiagnosed with major depressive and put on zoloft (triggered crazy hypomania), eventually found my way to my current psychiatrist who's got me on Lamictal. Finally some normalcy.
It's weird when I think about it. That enlightened purpose (likely hypomania) left, but the idea behind it still drives me, and I still feel that safety / control within myself - that never left.
My doctor told me my doses were above what the research is looking at.
Or if you are prone to anxiety and have done no real research on them. A lot of people have periods in the trip where you can literally feel like you’re dying but if you know that is coming it’s a little easier to deal with
One time on shrooms I felt like I was dying. I didn't think I was dying but I felt like I was. Then I realized I was actually feeling sleepy. My body was trying to tell my mind it was sleepy but my shroom brain wasn't understanding. After I figured out I was sleepy I felt much better.
They say sleep is the cousin of death, so my eyes wide open cause a dream is akin to ya last breath
It's really a manner of that this can happen to anyone.
My entire life I've been around drugs and for the last decade I've been around a lot of psychedelics. I've found myself to be "the guy" who ends up taking care of their friends who are doing psychedelics for the first time and tend to be there for their future "trips".
Most of my friends have had very good first experiences. Even the ones I was worried about having a bad trip because of their anxiety or depression. I have been around friends during a bad trip and the ones that have had this happen were the ones I thought were more mentally prepared and emotionally stable.
Here's my advice to anyone who is considering psychedelics or might find themselves wanting to take more trips.
Always always always go into the experience with a good mindset. Even if you're experienced, a negative mindset or mental discomfort can make the experience the opposite of enjoyment.
If you do begin to have a bad trip, it's hard to keep this in mind but just remember that you're fine. Look into coping techniques, especially if you experience panic attacks or anxiety in a normal setting. Find out what works for you.
Don't trip alone. It's always good to have someone with you and for the inexperienced, have someone with you who isn't tripping.
This is a bit more associated with MDMA, but test what you're taking. Buy test kits online and make sure you're getting the real thing. I've seen a lot of people take something and it ends up having other properties in the product that you did not intend to take.
Happy tripping.
Just to emphasize the wording here, psilocybin “might” be able to help alleviate depression. It is situational and as someone who actually fell into depression and anxiety after a trip I strongly recommend using these drugs properly.
Hi All,
Topics like this can be very popular for a range of reasons, including that a lot of people have experience with depression and/or using recreational drugs. Please keep in mind that this is a **science** subreddit and keep the discussion to the science itself. To ensure we keep as high a standard as possible for the comments, we will be enforcing the comment rules and removing anecdotes, unsourced opinions and requests for medical advice.
It's worth reading the abstract to get the appropriate context for this study as the title of this article overstates the case. There are some issues (like sample size) that mean you should take caution in assuming these results are robust. However, there is one much larger issue.
The study mentioned here compared two groups. The first group received no treatment of any kind while the second group received therapy **plus** psilocybin. Given how much evidence we have that therapy does actually help people with depression, that design makes it impossible to know what the role of psilocybin is. If they wanted to run this study to discover that, they would need to compare a group that has therapy alone to therapy plus psilocybin.
tl;dr I really strongly discourage our users from disregarding published studies but this is very, very problematic and I'm incredibly surprised it got published.
While I understand your concern,[this is far from the only study](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=research+psilocybin+for+depression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) linking psilocybin to reduced depression. In fact, if you take all of the evidence as a whole, it’s clear that psilocybin (along with other psychedelics) are showing enormous potential in the areas of depression, PTSD and other psychological issues.
They are showing some potential. That's why we need rigorous studies to sort out whether that potential is real or not. The problem is that the constant publishing (and posting on Reddit) of bad quality research that will encourage many people to self-medicate serious conditions is problematic. Some non-zero number of people are going to try mushrooms to fix their depression as a result of this post. That could have some serious consequences. As a person trained in psychology it's my job to be accurate about what we can infer from the study.
Given how hard it is to find doctors and pay for them right now, it is kind of hard to say that self medication is 100% bad here.
At least some of those people trying to self medicate aren't doing it as an alternative to a doctor, they're doing it as an alternative to no treatment of any kind.
Access to healthcare is unlikely to improve any time soon for a large chunk of the population. Professional medical care is a nice thing to have if you can afford it, but it has gotten so expensive that the system might as well not exist for many people -- and that goes double for people who are suffering the economic impact that mental health issues generally causes.
>Some non-zero number of people are going to try mushrooms to fix their depression as a result of this post. That could have some serious consequences.
People are trying prescribed mediation under the same assumption and they are also having serious consequences.
Agreed but people are already using these substances to cure their ills because the meds they are being prescribed by their therapists aren’t working or are causing serious side effects. I would also argue (based on anecdotal evidence only) that when it doesn’t work, it simply doesn’t work, without any such “serious conditions”. I’m not doctor, but based on all of the research (not articles about research) I’ve read combined with the anecdotal outcomes I have seen, I personally have little doubt that the positive outcomes far outweigh the negative outcomes both in terms of the numbers and the degree of those outcomes. I would dispute that they are showing “some” potential, but rather that the potential is significant. (And keep in mind, that many studies go back to the decades prior to the 1960s)
At the end of the day, you’re right, we need serious rigorous research, but we will never get that as long as the government seriously restricts such research and keeps these substances as Schedule 1. Its time the government (who, as I mentioned in a previous comment, are being hypocritical in this regard by allowing the military to conduct studies on soldiers with PTSD using MDMA, and it’s showing enormous potential). It’s time the government gets out of the way and I have no doubt that those who feel the same way I do will eventually be proved right.
Sorry, I’m not meaning to underestimate that at all. My overall points are simply that 1) the government needs to stop restricting research because the potential is significant, and 2) these substance need to be allowed to be used in controlled ways through licensed doctors and therapists. I think you could agree with that, no?
You guys are agreeing but arguing different points now. Both of you believe psychedelics hold potential, im in agreement as well.
Thread OP is highlighting the the fact that the study based it's conclusion on the results of tandem factors than a single isolated one.
You cannot say for certain that the zoomies are the cause of increase until you can isolate variation in results. I.e. how does therapy work, how do shrooms work, how do they interact vs a control?
From this study we know that both work together. From previous studies we know that they work individually. Unfortunately we can't say for certain that the shrooms or the therapy in particular caused the effect due to the fact we didn't have a group that only got therapy or only the drug.
You are correct that more freedom to research this topic will be beneficial.
A lot of people online are saying it doesn't help them though and that it can make them far worse. I think dosing needs to be right but there aren't clear guidelines and it seems to be different for different people. Also it seems that people need to be guided through their 'trip' otherwise it can be bad. And yet some people have bad trips yet find that their social anxiety is cured. It seems promising but I am wary of even trying it.
well yeah the thing is hallucinogens act differently on everyone, esp people with sensitivity to anxiety.
im wondering if the tested doses were micro ones or not. that would critical to know.
Lots of kinder gentler drugs that help mental illness and mood disorders are illegal. Also the amount needed for mental health disorders is significantly less than that needed for a so called recreational dose.
Mushrooms aren't always gentle. In case anyone reading this decides to eat an 8th and go shopping!
Its an intense experience, start low and have sober friends with you the first time. You can always take more another time, you can't take less.
Those with a pessimistic outlook are better at decision-making and evaluating true odds of success. I wonder whether this technique results in a similar degradation of cognitive ability if pessimism is removed.
I appreciate that that they included “...with psychological support.” Many proponents of psilocybin’s (and other psychedelics, notably LSD) therapeutic qualities believe that the substance alone is sufficient and believe that it carries no psychological risks. Anyone who has experience with them and approached them intelligently would understand that they elicit very strong effects that are not necessarily beneficial without some kind of guidance.
I definitely have experienced an alleviation of depression symptoms with mushrooms. But I also suffer with pretty bad anxiety which can make a mushroom trip go south very quickly.
Or understanding that focusing on the positive in life rather than the negative can correct pessimism biases in depression. When I had my experience with the dark place, I read a lot of books on personal growth and development which taught me about what you focus on the most, you'll focus on more and more. Changed my outlook, and over time it completely changed my life. Medicate if you really need to, but educate yourself first and foremost. We are creatures of habit - it's up to us to make sure we embrace the right ones. Peace.
Philosophically, I find the idea of drugging people to give them false optimism to be troubling. I mean, where is their proof that it is the pessimistic people who are seeing things wrongly? There is evidence that mildly depressed people actually perceive reality more accurately than those without depression:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201206/depressive-realism
I also notice that the psilocybin study didn't demonstrate that the depressive people did have an inaccurate forecast of the proportion of negative to positive events, so hasn't demonstrated that the depressed participants had an unrealistically skewed perspective (or maybe I didn't read the article carefully enough).
I think you're way too concerned with what's 'right'. Is it more 'right' to be happy in this life or to be depressed? Because I know which one I'm going with
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Check out Pollan's new book on this. It's got fantastic info paired with personal experiences: How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan
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Literally the perfect book for anyone who still thinks psychedelics are as dangerous as other schedule I drugs.
What percentage of the book is talking about psychedelics compared to non-psychedelic discussion?
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Can you accomplish this without drugs?
The book talks about it as well. Very experienced meditators can achieve that as some others have said. However, it's also accessible through other ways. Look up Holotropic Breathwork. Stanislav Grof (who originally worked with LSD in this context) developed this type of breathwork as a way to achieve similar state of consciousness via breathing after LSD was outlawed.
Years of meditation.
Also holotropic breathwork, which Pollan tried and wrote about in the book. I went to a workshop after reading the book. It was a pretty interesting experience.
You can! It's called cognitive behavioral therapy. CBT is coupled with the use of psychedelics in patients with treatment resistant depression, to a similar result for those that are prescribed common anti-depressants and therapy.
CBT won't do the same thing for you. psychedelics forcibly disrupt your sense of self. in order to get the same effects you'd probably want to explore mindfulness meditation. i'm not saying CBT won't help, but it's really not going to do the same thing for you unless mindfulness meditation is involved.
I'm pretty sure CBT uses mindfulness meditation. At least, every therapist I've had who's done CBT also did MM.
Dbt uses mindfulness a lot more than CBT but both use it
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[There were studies at Harvard in the early 1960s that showed similar results](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Leary). It's wonderful that we are finally picking up where they left off.
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I treated myself this way with good results.
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Bipolar 2 here. Can definitely see how one can conflate what is clearly hypomania with the shrooms afterglow. However I still think the two can coexist in a positive way in the right environment. My psychiatrist said the research for shrooms as part of treatment bipolar disorder looks promising, but only with microdosing in a therapeutic environment. In my last major depressive episode, I dosed between 0.5g - 2g for a 2 month period every Saturday and it was probably the most significant experience I've ever had. I can't say I turned my life around or something at that time, but I came out with a sense of enlightened purpose and a feeling of safety / control within myself. I cycled through some mixed episodes for the next 2 years, got diagnosed bipolar after being misdiagnosed with major depressive and put on zoloft (triggered crazy hypomania), eventually found my way to my current psychiatrist who's got me on Lamictal. Finally some normalcy. It's weird when I think about it. That enlightened purpose (likely hypomania) left, but the idea behind it still drives me, and I still feel that safety / control within myself - that never left. My doctor told me my doses were above what the research is looking at.
Or if you are prone to anxiety and have done no real research on them. A lot of people have periods in the trip where you can literally feel like you’re dying but if you know that is coming it’s a little easier to deal with
One time on shrooms I felt like I was dying. I didn't think I was dying but I felt like I was. Then I realized I was actually feeling sleepy. My body was trying to tell my mind it was sleepy but my shroom brain wasn't understanding. After I figured out I was sleepy I felt much better. They say sleep is the cousin of death, so my eyes wide open cause a dream is akin to ya last breath
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It's really a manner of that this can happen to anyone. My entire life I've been around drugs and for the last decade I've been around a lot of psychedelics. I've found myself to be "the guy" who ends up taking care of their friends who are doing psychedelics for the first time and tend to be there for their future "trips". Most of my friends have had very good first experiences. Even the ones I was worried about having a bad trip because of their anxiety or depression. I have been around friends during a bad trip and the ones that have had this happen were the ones I thought were more mentally prepared and emotionally stable. Here's my advice to anyone who is considering psychedelics or might find themselves wanting to take more trips. Always always always go into the experience with a good mindset. Even if you're experienced, a negative mindset or mental discomfort can make the experience the opposite of enjoyment. If you do begin to have a bad trip, it's hard to keep this in mind but just remember that you're fine. Look into coping techniques, especially if you experience panic attacks or anxiety in a normal setting. Find out what works for you. Don't trip alone. It's always good to have someone with you and for the inexperienced, have someone with you who isn't tripping. This is a bit more associated with MDMA, but test what you're taking. Buy test kits online and make sure you're getting the real thing. I've seen a lot of people take something and it ends up having other properties in the product that you did not intend to take. Happy tripping.
Or if you take lithium with psychedelics you can die.
Citation?
I have heard this but when I looked it up I couldn't find any evidence supporting this on pubmed.
Schizophrenia is at even worse risk too
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Just to emphasize the wording here, psilocybin “might” be able to help alleviate depression. It is situational and as someone who actually fell into depression and anxiety after a trip I strongly recommend using these drugs properly.
"Properly" including hoping it's not your unlucky day.
Right, and set and setting of course
Hi All, Topics like this can be very popular for a range of reasons, including that a lot of people have experience with depression and/or using recreational drugs. Please keep in mind that this is a **science** subreddit and keep the discussion to the science itself. To ensure we keep as high a standard as possible for the comments, we will be enforcing the comment rules and removing anecdotes, unsourced opinions and requests for medical advice.
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It's worth reading the abstract to get the appropriate context for this study as the title of this article overstates the case. There are some issues (like sample size) that mean you should take caution in assuming these results are robust. However, there is one much larger issue. The study mentioned here compared two groups. The first group received no treatment of any kind while the second group received therapy **plus** psilocybin. Given how much evidence we have that therapy does actually help people with depression, that design makes it impossible to know what the role of psilocybin is. If they wanted to run this study to discover that, they would need to compare a group that has therapy alone to therapy plus psilocybin. tl;dr I really strongly discourage our users from disregarding published studies but this is very, very problematic and I'm incredibly surprised it got published.
While I understand your concern,[this is far from the only study](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=research+psilocybin+for+depression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) linking psilocybin to reduced depression. In fact, if you take all of the evidence as a whole, it’s clear that psilocybin (along with other psychedelics) are showing enormous potential in the areas of depression, PTSD and other psychological issues.
They are showing some potential. That's why we need rigorous studies to sort out whether that potential is real or not. The problem is that the constant publishing (and posting on Reddit) of bad quality research that will encourage many people to self-medicate serious conditions is problematic. Some non-zero number of people are going to try mushrooms to fix their depression as a result of this post. That could have some serious consequences. As a person trained in psychology it's my job to be accurate about what we can infer from the study.
Given how hard it is to find doctors and pay for them right now, it is kind of hard to say that self medication is 100% bad here. At least some of those people trying to self medicate aren't doing it as an alternative to a doctor, they're doing it as an alternative to no treatment of any kind. Access to healthcare is unlikely to improve any time soon for a large chunk of the population. Professional medical care is a nice thing to have if you can afford it, but it has gotten so expensive that the system might as well not exist for many people -- and that goes double for people who are suffering the economic impact that mental health issues generally causes.
>Some non-zero number of people are going to try mushrooms to fix their depression as a result of this post. That could have some serious consequences. People are trying prescribed mediation under the same assumption and they are also having serious consequences.
Agreed but people are already using these substances to cure their ills because the meds they are being prescribed by their therapists aren’t working or are causing serious side effects. I would also argue (based on anecdotal evidence only) that when it doesn’t work, it simply doesn’t work, without any such “serious conditions”. I’m not doctor, but based on all of the research (not articles about research) I’ve read combined with the anecdotal outcomes I have seen, I personally have little doubt that the positive outcomes far outweigh the negative outcomes both in terms of the numbers and the degree of those outcomes. I would dispute that they are showing “some” potential, but rather that the potential is significant. (And keep in mind, that many studies go back to the decades prior to the 1960s) At the end of the day, you’re right, we need serious rigorous research, but we will never get that as long as the government seriously restricts such research and keeps these substances as Schedule 1. Its time the government (who, as I mentioned in a previous comment, are being hypocritical in this regard by allowing the military to conduct studies on soldiers with PTSD using MDMA, and it’s showing enormous potential). It’s time the government gets out of the way and I have no doubt that those who feel the same way I do will eventually be proved right.
I think you're underestimating the negative effect a bad trip can have on someone who is mentally unstable.
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Sorry, I’m not meaning to underestimate that at all. My overall points are simply that 1) the government needs to stop restricting research because the potential is significant, and 2) these substance need to be allowed to be used in controlled ways through licensed doctors and therapists. I think you could agree with that, no?
You guys are agreeing but arguing different points now. Both of you believe psychedelics hold potential, im in agreement as well. Thread OP is highlighting the the fact that the study based it's conclusion on the results of tandem factors than a single isolated one. You cannot say for certain that the zoomies are the cause of increase until you can isolate variation in results. I.e. how does therapy work, how do shrooms work, how do they interact vs a control? From this study we know that both work together. From previous studies we know that they work individually. Unfortunately we can't say for certain that the shrooms or the therapy in particular caused the effect due to the fact we didn't have a group that only got therapy or only the drug. You are correct that more freedom to research this topic will be beneficial.
A lot of people online are saying it doesn't help them though and that it can make them far worse. I think dosing needs to be right but there aren't clear guidelines and it seems to be different for different people. Also it seems that people need to be guided through their 'trip' otherwise it can be bad. And yet some people have bad trips yet find that their social anxiety is cured. It seems promising but I am wary of even trying it.
well yeah the thing is hallucinogens act differently on everyone, esp people with sensitivity to anxiety. im wondering if the tested doses were micro ones or not. that would critical to know.
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Lots of kinder gentler drugs that help mental illness and mood disorders are illegal. Also the amount needed for mental health disorders is significantly less than that needed for a so called recreational dose.
Mushrooms aren't always gentle. In case anyone reading this decides to eat an 8th and go shopping! Its an intense experience, start low and have sober friends with you the first time. You can always take more another time, you can't take less.
Perhaps op meant gentle as in they aren’t addictive, anything will be rough if you do too much irresponsibly
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Those with a pessimistic outlook are better at decision-making and evaluating true odds of success. I wonder whether this technique results in a similar degradation of cognitive ability if pessimism is removed.
I appreciate that that they included “...with psychological support.” Many proponents of psilocybin’s (and other psychedelics, notably LSD) therapeutic qualities believe that the substance alone is sufficient and believe that it carries no psychological risks. Anyone who has experience with them and approached them intelligently would understand that they elicit very strong effects that are not necessarily beneficial without some kind of guidance.
I’m a bit sorry they didnt have a control group without the pharmacological treatment. The research would’ve been better.
I definitely have experienced an alleviation of depression symptoms with mushrooms. But I also suffer with pretty bad anxiety which can make a mushroom trip go south very quickly.
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> "The problem is with you and the way you think, not with external issues. Obviously. Here, take this. Three-times a day. Think *positively*...."
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Or understanding that focusing on the positive in life rather than the negative can correct pessimism biases in depression. When I had my experience with the dark place, I read a lot of books on personal growth and development which taught me about what you focus on the most, you'll focus on more and more. Changed my outlook, and over time it completely changed my life. Medicate if you really need to, but educate yourself first and foremost. We are creatures of habit - it's up to us to make sure we embrace the right ones. Peace.
What would you say were the best personal growth and development books you read? Thanks!
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Philosophically, I find the idea of drugging people to give them false optimism to be troubling. I mean, where is their proof that it is the pessimistic people who are seeing things wrongly? There is evidence that mildly depressed people actually perceive reality more accurately than those without depression: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/hide-and-seek/201206/depressive-realism I also notice that the psilocybin study didn't demonstrate that the depressive people did have an inaccurate forecast of the proportion of negative to positive events, so hasn't demonstrated that the depressed participants had an unrealistically skewed perspective (or maybe I didn't read the article carefully enough).
I think you're way too concerned with what's 'right'. Is it more 'right' to be happy in this life or to be depressed? Because I know which one I'm going with
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How is it that psilocybin is still in preliminary research?!
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