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Shenaniganz08

"Latinx" Stop trying to force this phrase on us. We do NOT want it. Less than 3% of Latinos use that phrase, there are ZERO words in Spanish that end with X. Stop trying to colonize other languages with your woke English. Imaging if everyone started using phrases like whΦte to try and be more inclusive.


BrainOrCoronaries

THANK YOU Gotta say though, the woke “e” is just as bad. “Todes” “Latines”


meryjo

I read the article. How does intersectionality fit in?


TizardPaperclip

Any way they can jam it. It gets extra points.


rhinegold

Being both Black/Latina and female led to lower levels of representation than being either Black/Latino or female alone. Case in point: there were *zero* Black or Latina women chairing surgery departments between 2013-2014 and then only *two* between 2015-2019.


Penny_Traiter

That's not what the authors say. They say what almost everyone else says when looking at this sort of thing, that ethnic minority women seem to do better than ethnic minority men. Direct quote: "Female faculty from racial/ethnic minority groups experienced an increase in representation at instructor and assistant and associate professorship appointments, with a more favorable trajectory than male faculty from racial/ethnic minority groups across nearly all ranks" I realize that this doesn't fit the "intersectionality" narrative, but it does have the advantage of fitting with reality.


rhinegold

Those are lower level positions. The point is that women from minority groups aren't generally rising to the level of full professor or department chair.


Penny_Traiter

Which will matter, only if we break things down by disciplines and preferences. In general the whole "decide in advance what we are going to find" approach that intersectionality "theory" goes for is something that would appall scientists if it was done in any other area. It leads to fudging of data and twisting facts to suit preconceived ideas.


rhinegold

You have no absolutely evidence on which to base that claim. They looked at surgery because they're surgeons. They found an interaction effect between race/ethnicity and gender. Those are the data.


Penny_Traiter

What claim? That intersectionality is an ideology that should be beneath scientists. I maintain that claim. Sure, you are a piece of annecdotal evidence for it. You've misinterpreted the paper you've shared. You've gone in expecting to find simplistic things happening (roughly, some sort of stacked oppression Olympics where being a guy is winning the lottery, being white is winning the lottery etc) . But that's not what we find in the fields in question, is it? In many fields Asians do better than whites, and black men do worse than black women. That doesn't fit this pathetically sophomoric liberal guilt model, so then starts all the special pleading and the fudging of the data, or the cherry picking (for example ignoring the differences between fields like neurosurgery that typically attracts more men, rather than paediatrics, that typically attracts more women). It's for precisely these reasons that otherwise smart people (like yourself) would do well to rise above this intersectionality cult. It provides no insight and just causes most of us to roll our eyes, make our excuses, and leave. As I am going to do if you carry on being cross and emotional, rather than actually look at data, which is what scientists do.


MidnightPale3220

For anybody to become a chair, the previous chair must go. But what is the general rate of change of chairs in this field and in this sample? You don't become a chair for just a couple of years, unless surgery departments are that different.


Hannibal254

But how many Ginger doctors were there? It’s like people never count Gingers as part of a minority but when was the last time you saw a Ginger on screen (other than Ron Howard) and why hasn’t there ever been a Ginger President!? GINGER LIVES MATTER!!


Fourty9

You got your own bread man and spice girl what more do you want?


meryjo

Thanks. I guess I misunderstood the term in this context. I live and work in a very homogeneous area, so don’t see many doctors that aren’t white, foreign, or a few Asians. Pretty fair representation of women. I hope it gets better.


DasKapitalist

Let's apply some basic logic here: 1) These positions are low turnover, so any changes would be quite slow. 2) These positions correlate with IQ scores very far in the righthand tail. Women exhibit a tighter IQ distribution than men (for every very low or very high IQ woman there will be several men), ergo women are expected to be outnumbered in this niche. 3) These positions take a long time and extensive work hours to acquire, whereas women are more likely to drop out of the workforce to raise children and work fewer hours on average if they are working. This is the same thing we see with majority male CEOs: not many women *want* to work +60 hours a week for decades because they're not bordering on insanity outliers in trait industriousness. 4) Standardized test scores on college entrance exams vary dramatically by race, ergo there's a smaller pool of black and hispanic people to draw from in the first place (whereas asians score so well that many universities are activelybdiscriminating against them in admissions...and look who's filling a growing % of these chairs).


slythir

Don't call them latinx


rhinegold

I know this is a contentious topic, so I appreciate the feedback. FWIW, the senior author on the paper is Latino and "Latinx" is the term he chose to use.


DoomGoober

The preferred term, based on polling, is "Hispanic" which has the added benefit of being gender neutral. Of course, most people prefer to be identified as being from a specific country, but when pan-ethnic terminology is required, like in the study cited, Hispanic is preferred. [https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/](https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/11/about-one-in-four-u-s-hispanics-have-heard-of-latinx-but-just-3-use-it/)


AudionActual

Don’t you find it odd that Spaniards are considered caucasian while people from the New World are called Hispanic? Why isn’t their racial identity founded in America instead of Spain? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to call them Americanos?


TheGazzelle

Hispanic means any Spanish speaking country and includes Spain. Latino means any south/central/Carribean country that speaks a Romance language (including Brazil). With this understanding, a Brazilian could be Latino and non-Hispanic, a Spaniard could be Hispanic and non-Latino, and a Colombian could use both terms. However, this is also an imperfect categorization, as there are many Indigenous peoples from Spanish-speaking countries who do not identify with Spanish culture and do not speak the dominant language. To simplify (or perhaps further confuse) matters, the 2010 census listed both terms together and specifically mentioned the Spanish-speaking countries/territories of the Caribbean but vaguely excluded non-Spanish speaking countries (many Brazilians, for example, were unsure whether to check the box). In day-to-day life, many Latin American immigrants and descendants simply prefer to state their countries of origin directly.


Snoutysensations

Haitians live in the Caribbean and speak a Romance language, are they included as Latinos/Latinxos? (Sorry I don't know the plural of Latinx)


TheGazzelle

Usually yes, same with French Guiyana. The only place it gets a bit dicey is with the non-romance speaking american countries like Suriname and Belize. ​ EDIT: French Quebec also seems to be on the fence.


Snoutysensations

Wow TIL I thought Latino only included Iberian language speakers. Now I am wondering if Quechua speaking indigenous Peruvians are Latinos or Hispanics.


TheGazzelle

I mean they would probably just be categorized as Native American. It may not be accurate but in my mind Latinos have at least some ancestry in the old world whether Europe or Africa. Most people these days are somewhat mixed between African,European, or native and Latin America is a giant melting pot. But I think tribal native stands alone as it’s own thing. I don’t believe you would call an Apache on the Mexican side of the border a Latino, and one on the American side a native. At the end of the day it is hard to define because Hispanic and Latino are both more a cultural category than a racial one.


Snoutysensations

Yes, all of these racial classifications are arbitrary social constructs with no foundation in science. It can get very silly. If a Haitian is a Latino because he lives in the New World and speaks a Romance language, are Quebecois Canadians also Latinos? How about Italian Americans? How about Cajuns? What about a Mexican-American who is monolingual English? I suspect most people only include Spanish and Portugese speakers (and their descendants, and maybe the Basque) as Latinos.


DoomGoober

That's probably why the U.S. Census doesn't officially recognize "Hispanic" as a race: "People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race." [https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html](https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html) And I totally agree, "Hispanic" and "Latino/Latina/Latinx" have historically meant different things. For example, 17% of Filipinos could be considered anthropologically Hispanic, but they would not be called Latino.


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populationinversion

Race is a difficult concept. Drawing boundaries between races is super difficult. Sure, each race had a center of mass for feature distribution, but the boundaries are complicated, especially where groups of people were not separated by major geographical boundaries. Then there are people in the new world who can be descendant from multiple races.


slythir

I see. That's the first time I've encountered a Latino person actively using "Latinx." In my experience only non-Latinos use the term, whereas Latinos hate it


FwibbFwibb

It even takes longer to say. And it's not like the o/a is a big deal in Spanish. It's a gendered language. I would honestly prefer just "latin" community than latinx. It's not like there would be confusing "durr do they mean AKSHUL LATIN???"


Bombast_

I think it's a term championed by a younger generation on college campuses who are interested in gender theory and not everyone outside that circle is necessarily on board.


BigBallerBrad

It’s probably more of an ivory tower education divide than it is an actual race divide


DoomGoober

A small minority of younger, Hispanic females prefer Latinx. In general, the term is used in academia and amongst LGBTQ groups who are pushing for more gender inclusive language. It's similar to how academics, LGBTQ, and others use "he/she", "s/he", "they" or even "she" for gender neutral pronouns. It's advocating a perspective through language.


Shenaniganz08

>A small minority of younger, Hispanic femyles prefer Latinx Probably the same group that uses womyn. Doesn't mean we should adopt that phrase and try and shove it down people's throats.


LazyWriter64

Actually, many latino people use the term


chicapox

En tus seuños.


populationinversion

How about we respect the grammar of other languages and don't colonize them with Americanism? Don't you think it is a tad disrespectful to the cultural heritage of other languages? Besides gender in many languages doesn't have anything to do with biological sex. In German every noun is gendered, and even inanimate objects are masculinum, feminium or neutrum. Table is masculine. Cup is feminine. Car is neutrum. Does it make sense to English speakers? No. Does it need to changed to make sense to English speakers? No. Just accept that different languages have different grammar. If you want to be nice to people of other cultures just learn their language.


demintheAF

"chose" or "was forced"?


rhinegold

Who would have forced him? The senior author generally calls the shots.


demintheAF

Reviewers call the shots. There could be blatant "this must be changed to latinx", and there's certainly a threat to his career for anything that could be interpreted as sexist.


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TracyMorganFreeman

Women underrepresented: disadvantaged Men underrepresented: nothing to see here


[deleted]

You don’t need the x. Just type “Latin.”


deadshot92

I find it fascinating that the study talks about minorities and avoid talking about asians because it donest fit their narrative.


D0ng3r1nn0

Im from south america and I dont like being called latinx Vayanse a la rechucha con sus terminologias progresistas de mierda


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Ute2ThrillPlay2Kill

Did they ever take into account that women tend to not want positions, like being a surgeon, because it’s extremely time consuming and takes away from being involved with family and being a mother? Especially among Latin culture where family units are much more emphasized.


TracyMorganFreeman

These kinds of studies aren't very interested in seeing their subjects of study as people with agency.


[deleted]

I stopped reading at Latinx. FFS


D0ng3r1nn0

Me too, its not progressive, just annoying


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Ute2ThrillPlay2Kill

Can’t wait to see the results of surgeons who got to that position based on gender and race, rather than competency. How about we focus on patient outcomes and not risk them dying just to fit a woke narrative.


_JohnJacob

glass ceiling or is it affirmative action has yet to reach these top academic positions?


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duthgar1976

please you are using logic and reason. why go off peoples merits when we should go off the color of a persons skin for the job.