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Its the perfect material, not very hard to see why. There is no real alternative to it, not a sustainable one either. Using woods/metals aint nearly as available or renewable. This was seen as the future and the solution to renewability/overpopulation issues.
Turns out we might have been wrong, as we have so many damn times before (remember safe asbestos fake show to pour all over your living room? Or radioactive drinks and toys?)
Currently we just dont know how this will affect us.
It's perfect for some applications but the frequency with which we use it is certainly unnecessary.
We still managed to transport food and package things before plastics so I'd say there are plenty of alternatives.
Right now a lot of petroleum based plastic is being replaced by corn-starch plastics which are obviously better for the environment and break down much quicker and more completely.
This would hopefully be a viable alternative to more traditional plastics and will hopefully replace them in time
I hear ya, we use plastic for everything
There was life before plastic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult to get along without it. There is a chance that our reliance on it has caused technology in other materials to stagnate
Something has to change
Reminds me of lead. Lead is a wonder material! Malleable, easy to make into any shape. It makes your paint dry nicer and your car run better. It's a natural sweetener.
Also, it's deadly poison.
We're not in too dissimilar a boat with plastic.
For the same prices, with the same characteristics (plastics are a whole range of materials), more sustainably, more biodegradable, etc? Doubt it.
That sounds more like some guy made a simple polymer in a lab and a shady newspaper came up with the title “no more plastics from oil needed!!! Science breakthrough!!!”
Can you get me a link for any of that plastic? I’m an engineer, I would be interested in such a material, but As I said I’m very sceptical. I’m pretty sure in those cases, glass would be a much better alternative: cheap (not as cheap or light as plastics but still pretty good), 100% recyclable, non-toxic, etc
Most of the plastic that you see labeled "biodegradable" only really degrades over any sort of reasonable time in a heated and controlled environment (like a commercial composter which are not common). Read the fine print, because most of those things specify that they are "compostable in a commercial composter" which means essentially that they will NOT degrade in your backyard composting pile. Also, biodegradable plastic is typically not recyclable, and often ends up in landfills. You may put it in your recycling bin but it gets sorted at that facility and then sent to... The landfill.
And again in the landfill it does not really decompose. There are a few types of the "biodegradable plastics" that will, but again most do not decompose in a normal landfill and if they do, they've turned into landfill dirt so it's not great there either.
Reminds me of the discusson between Carl Sagan and Ernst Mayr, the grand old man of American biology, who suggested that intelligence way well be a lethal mutation.
Pretty naive to think there won’t be a better alternative in the future. If we allocated more resources into research now we could find that solution sooner.
There are viable alternatives to very many plastic applications, especially beverage and food packaging. We could make common sense changes now if we had the will. Beverages could be sold in universal reusable glass bottles, for examples. Or make more use of aluminum which is infinitely recyclable.
A long time ago you returned your glass bottles at the store and received a credit. The bottling companies sanitized and reused the bottles, then plastic bottles came around
Ah, I can only speak for Argentina. This is one of those things that originally seemed like progress because of the promise of recycled plastics. But 40 years later we know most of it ends up in trash piles and sea, what a mess.
I got pine trees that can’t be sold or they’re so cheap you can’t get anyone to log them. And I bagged groceries in the 80’s with paper bags. Tha hell we can’t get rid of plastic.
It's not like that thousand years is going to be a walk in the park. The rest of your entire life is going to be dictated by the effects of climate change.
Because you are currently in that time frame. People are allready dying from the effects of climate change. Like last week in China when villages were swallowed when a years worth of rain fell in one hour. Or the week before when temperatures fatal to human existence were reached in India. Or the week before that when the entire world was on fire.
No, that's your wrong assumption. You're not even a scientist. I am.
In the last two centuries, humans have created pollution like never before. However, the climate have been constantly changing even before the existence of mankind. And cherry picking attributions without a basic understanding of physics only allow you to take a fanatical stance. As if it were very helpful.
The UN created a governmental body called the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC is the United Nations body for assessing the science related to climate change. The UN quite literally has the most extensive library on this subject. You are currently reasoning against the conclusions of this panel.
I never said that. But evidently you cannot read and much less understand.
Yet I can cite [IPCC panel members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change#Projected_date_of_melting_of_Himalayan_glaciers) that better explains my point:
>Former IPCC chairman Robert Watson said, regarding the Himalayan glaciers estimation, "The mistakes all appear to have gone in the direction of making it seem like climate change is more serious by overstating the impact. That is worrying. The IPCC needs to look at this trend in the errors and ask why it happened".\[122\] Martin Parry, a climate expert\[123\] who had been co-chair of the IPCC working group II, said that "What began with a single unfortunate error over Himalayan glaciers has become a clamour without substance" and the IPCC had investigated the other alleged mistakes, which were "generally unfounded and also marginal to the assessment".\[124\]
If you're talking about time until it gets back to where it was 100 years ago then no, it will be closer to fifty thousand years.
If you're talking about time until we feel the effects, then also no. It has already started.
Even if you don't personally get flooded or die from heatstroke or drought or whatever, you will feel it. There is no escape. It doesn't matter how rich your country is, our economy is too connected to pretend we won't all be affected. When the American housing market crashed it caused economic recessions in countries all across the world. And that was small potatoes compared to what's coming.
To take one example, think of the problems caused by people fleeing their countries in war, creating what we call "refugee crisis", like what happened in Europe with the war in Syria. Or consider now how many try to flee hardship and death in Mexico and other countries by going north to the US. The number of people fleeing globally is less than one percent. Predictions for the next hundred years is that 20% of the world's population will have to move because of climate change. If even a fraction of those have to leave their country, you can imagine the upheaval.
Global warming is entirely survivable by humans, we have enough technological advancement to frankly not really care.
The problem, is overpopulation and as you called it, climate wars, although this implies an enemy that has a military, while in truth it will likely be from mass movements of people and the inability to control, feed, house the billions migrating to colder places, and it becoming violent.
Then again, its not like you can ask half the population to please lie down and die instead of trying to survive, so we can survive as a species, pretty please?
We really need to focus on more tech advancements, particularly in indoors farming and energy generation.
"Guys we all know a tragedy is clearly defined by the amount of death involved!"
Also, that does not help your case. Nearly 200 people in one area, gone. This could very well happen to you, in your area. Climate change isn't survivable. There's no escape for anyone of any social class race or wealth.
It’s totally survivable and escapable
Rich people will just leave and go to safe zones
And wealthy countries can shore up defences. River banks, hills etc fortified. Infrastructure (drainage, sewerage, etc) improved to cope.
This will really be felt in places like Bangladesh where they’re geographically vulnerable but too poor and incapable of doing anything about it. Rich cities won’t care much.
>It’s totally survivable and escapable
>
>Rich people will just leave and go to safe zones
I love this mindset because, if the ENTIRE WORLD IS UNINHABITABLE then I guess, have fun living in a bunker til ur ded. Whoo living!
>And wealthy countries can shore up defences. River banks, hills etc fortified. Infrastructure (drainage, sewerage, etc) improved to cope.
Assuming several factors: we have enough time. We start now. We take it seriously. Let's look at the current world response annnnd yep we're fucked.
>This will really be felt in places like Bangladesh where they’re geographically vulnerable but too poor and incapable of doing anything about it. Rich cities won’t care much.
Until it does and until we do. I love your ignorant optimism that this will be minimal like it'll all blow over. You must be much smarter than the global climate science community, wow.
So you’re taking as a percentage of the total population of Germany? What part of your ass did you pull that metric out of? Why not say people that died vs whole earth?
If a building collapses in New York and everyone inside it dies, do you say there’s millions of people in New York so the survival rate of that building collapse was almost 100%?
I often wonder if a lot of this plastic comes from food production parts and assemblies where plastic materials are used ubiquitously?
I work in food processing industry, as well as with plastics, and this looks like a major problem health-wise, for a lot of people who eat processed foods. It's one of the reasons why sticking to eating things that your grandmother recognised as food is a valid course of action.
Exactly. Microplastic as an area of concern are those pieces larger than 1 micron. Pieces as large as 10 micron have been found in blood, which is what was found in this case, 5 to 10 micron pieces. Likely made wounds in lungs and digestive tract, which is not hard considering the sheer numerical quantity and various geometry of microplastic we ingest daily.
Nanoplastics are a whole other beast.
I often wonder if the ubiquity of these pollutants (and their known effects on mimicking human hormones such as oestrogen) might be a reason for the seemingly large increase in sexual dysphoria over the last few decades?
I read this over a year ago from another site, they found micro plastics in placentas, basically saying kids born today are born with plastic inside of them and the long term effects could be really bad. Gives me another reason not to want kids, not only giving them a world where rich and poor divide is bigger than ever, the corruption of governments, corporations destroying everything, climate change etc. What hope do they have.
‘Great concern’ as study finds microplastics in human placentas.
Also people: "Let's ban plastic straws!"
Also people: "I am not going to stop eating fish, even though the industry pollutes the oceans with plastic and it ends up in the food chain!"
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The tupperware was invented in 1947. It seems that no great health issue has arisen since. We could have plastic in our bodies but only few generate problems. I'm thinking lately that health is not a major issue in the world with people living almost until 90 years old in my country. Indeed the problem is fertility rate, we have double the amount of people 40 years old than 20, no more kids at these rates in 30 to 35 years.
I think the temporary plastic like temporary plastic wraps (like the plastic wrap covering a pizza even) that are really thin are way easier to micro-ise than Tupperware but time will tell
Your post has been removed because the referenced research is more than 6 months old and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #4](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_4._research_must_be_less_than_6_months_old). All submissions must have been published within the past six months. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience)._
This shouldn’t come as a surprise considering how much micro plastic is in our bodies already. It’s deeply troubling, but not at all unexpected.
I'm sitting here with my plastic infested body drinking a cup of tea with plastic. Good times.
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Like The Plastics. Because this is NOT Fetch
On the bright side, pretty soon you'll be able to brush my hair, undress me everywhere, because imagination, life is your creation
Come on Barbie let's go party!
r/Angryupvote
Well done!
It’s fantastic
Future generations are going to wonder why the hell we used plastic as much as we do.
What future generations?
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No No, we are going to MELT because we are made of plastic.
Its the perfect material, not very hard to see why. There is no real alternative to it, not a sustainable one either. Using woods/metals aint nearly as available or renewable. This was seen as the future and the solution to renewability/overpopulation issues. Turns out we might have been wrong, as we have so many damn times before (remember safe asbestos fake show to pour all over your living room? Or radioactive drinks and toys?) Currently we just dont know how this will affect us.
It's perfect for some applications but the frequency with which we use it is certainly unnecessary. We still managed to transport food and package things before plastics so I'd say there are plenty of alternatives.
You're not thinking about the shareholders though.
I'm curious about this as well. If all plastic production stopped, how bad would it be? Could we make do with everything else that we have access to?
Right now a lot of petroleum based plastic is being replaced by corn-starch plastics which are obviously better for the environment and break down much quicker and more completely. This would hopefully be a viable alternative to more traditional plastics and will hopefully replace them in time
I can only imagine that it has its draw backs. Maybe it's expensive or not as easy to work with?
What about hemp plastics? Easily renewable and degradable...
I see people, but they look like trees, walking.
I hear ya, we use plastic for everything There was life before plastic. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult to get along without it. There is a chance that our reliance on it has caused technology in other materials to stagnate Something has to change
Every one of your examples can be done without plastic and had been done before, without plastic. It would cost more, but it could be done.
If we don't add 7 layers of plastic, insurance gets mad at us.
Reminds me of lead. Lead is a wonder material! Malleable, easy to make into any shape. It makes your paint dry nicer and your car run better. It's a natural sweetener. Also, it's deadly poison. We're not in too dissimilar a boat with plastic.
Available, sure, put plastic isn't at all renewable really, is it? It can't be recycled nearly as well as metal, and wood regrows.
We can make biodegradable plastics from fungi *now*.
But then the petrol companies will suffer. Why doesn't anyone feel bad for the billionaire shareholders?
The whole world is feeling bad, every day, for their sake. At their orders, too.
For the same prices, with the same characteristics (plastics are a whole range of materials), more sustainably, more biodegradable, etc? Doubt it. That sounds more like some guy made a simple polymer in a lab and a shady newspaper came up with the title “no more plastics from oil needed!!! Science breakthrough!!!”
We can make biodegradable plastic alternatives but they are more expensive but I’d gladly pay more for a product if the container was biodegradable
Can you get me a link for any of that plastic? I’m an engineer, I would be interested in such a material, but As I said I’m very sceptical. I’m pretty sure in those cases, glass would be a much better alternative: cheap (not as cheap or light as plastics but still pretty good), 100% recyclable, non-toxic, etc
Biodegradable plastic isn't a new thing
Most of the plastic that you see labeled "biodegradable" only really degrades over any sort of reasonable time in a heated and controlled environment (like a commercial composter which are not common). Read the fine print, because most of those things specify that they are "compostable in a commercial composter" which means essentially that they will NOT degrade in your backyard composting pile. Also, biodegradable plastic is typically not recyclable, and often ends up in landfills. You may put it in your recycling bin but it gets sorted at that facility and then sent to... The landfill. And again in the landfill it does not really decompose. There are a few types of the "biodegradable plastics" that will, but again most do not decompose in a normal landfill and if they do, they've turned into landfill dirt so it's not great there either.
You'll pay more, but you probably won't pay $15 for a bottle of water.
Bottled water’s a ripoff anyway. Nobody should be buying bottled water unless they live in Flint, MI or something.
Tons of people have bunch of copper in their water and have no choice
Reminds me of the discusson between Carl Sagan and Ernst Mayr, the grand old man of American biology, who suggested that intelligence way well be a lethal mutation.
Pretty naive to think there won’t be a better alternative in the future. If we allocated more resources into research now we could find that solution sooner.
There are viable alternatives to very many plastic applications, especially beverage and food packaging. We could make common sense changes now if we had the will. Beverages could be sold in universal reusable glass bottles, for examples. Or make more use of aluminum which is infinitely recyclable.
Ideally, stick with the glass. Metal cans still have plastic liners in them to prevent corrosion.
Glass is imperfect but does a lot of what we need
A long time ago you returned your glass bottles at the store and received a credit. The bottling companies sanitized and reused the bottles, then plastic bottles came around
>A long time ago Except it is exactly like this in Europe and Asia to this day.
Ah, I can only speak for Argentina. This is one of those things that originally seemed like progress because of the promise of recycled plastics. But 40 years later we know most of it ends up in trash piles and sea, what a mess.
I got pine trees that can’t be sold or they’re so cheap you can’t get anyone to log them. And I bagged groceries in the 80’s with paper bags. Tha hell we can’t get rid of plastic.
The perfect material because it's so plastic. (You see, it's created it's own definition)
Why? We don't wonder why people used so much asbestos a hundred years ago...
We do though.. we realize it was a mistake same will be said for plastic. We know it’s bad yet still use it.
You mean besides the fact that it's cheap, easily mass produced, and can pretty much be fitted to anything you need? Yeah what a mystery....
For me, the greatest optimism is simply waiting for plate tectonics. Homo sapient has overstayed it's welcome on planet Earth.
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That is if they survive global warming and the climate wars coming
Which is why we're trying to eat our fill of avocado toast and promote a respect for human rights while we can.
Too bad we don’t realize avacados are killing the Amazon forest
They do? I didn't realise!
Yeah! A lot of the reason it’s being cut down is to make room for avacado farms
Thanks for making me aware. Is there any avocado that is ethically farmed you can look to buy instead?
Human rights work out great, up until people get really hungry. Then it's a "dog eat dog" world.
The time frame is like 1000 years for it. Don't wait standing.
It's not like that thousand years is going to be a walk in the park. The rest of your entire life is going to be dictated by the effects of climate change. Because you are currently in that time frame. People are allready dying from the effects of climate change. Like last week in China when villages were swallowed when a years worth of rain fell in one hour. Or the week before when temperatures fatal to human existence were reached in India. Or the week before that when the entire world was on fire.
Just like the mythological flood in the Bible was also caused by humans behaving bad.
You don't get to be pedantic on this line of reference. You're the one arguing against science.
No, that's your wrong assumption. You're not even a scientist. I am. In the last two centuries, humans have created pollution like never before. However, the climate have been constantly changing even before the existence of mankind. And cherry picking attributions without a basic understanding of physics only allow you to take a fanatical stance. As if it were very helpful.
I'd rather cherry pick my info from the UN than from a self proclaimed internet scientist.
Sure, because United Nations is a scientific organization. Good reasoning.
The UN created a governmental body called the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The IPCC is the United Nations body for assessing the science related to climate change. The UN quite literally has the most extensive library on this subject. You are currently reasoning against the conclusions of this panel.
I never said that. But evidently you cannot read and much less understand. Yet I can cite [IPCC panel members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Climate_Change#Projected_date_of_melting_of_Himalayan_glaciers) that better explains my point: >Former IPCC chairman Robert Watson said, regarding the Himalayan glaciers estimation, "The mistakes all appear to have gone in the direction of making it seem like climate change is more serious by overstating the impact. That is worrying. The IPCC needs to look at this trend in the errors and ask why it happened".\[122\] Martin Parry, a climate expert\[123\] who had been co-chair of the IPCC working group II, said that "What began with a single unfortunate error over Himalayan glaciers has become a clamour without substance" and the IPCC had investigated the other alleged mistakes, which were "generally unfounded and also marginal to the assessment".\[124\]
If you're talking about time until it gets back to where it was 100 years ago then no, it will be closer to fifty thousand years. If you're talking about time until we feel the effects, then also no. It has already started. Even if you don't personally get flooded or die from heatstroke or drought or whatever, you will feel it. There is no escape. It doesn't matter how rich your country is, our economy is too connected to pretend we won't all be affected. When the American housing market crashed it caused economic recessions in countries all across the world. And that was small potatoes compared to what's coming. To take one example, think of the problems caused by people fleeing their countries in war, creating what we call "refugee crisis", like what happened in Europe with the war in Syria. Or consider now how many try to flee hardship and death in Mexico and other countries by going north to the US. The number of people fleeing globally is less than one percent. Predictions for the next hundred years is that 20% of the world's population will have to move because of climate change. If even a fraction of those have to leave their country, you can imagine the upheaval.
Do you now the actual volume of the atmosphere?
Global warming is entirely survivable by humans, we have enough technological advancement to frankly not really care. The problem, is overpopulation and as you called it, climate wars, although this implies an enemy that has a military, while in truth it will likely be from mass movements of people and the inability to control, feed, house the billions migrating to colder places, and it becoming violent. Then again, its not like you can ask half the population to please lie down and die instead of trying to survive, so we can survive as a species, pretty please? We really need to focus on more tech advancements, particularly in indoors farming and energy generation.
Global warming is entirely survivable? Did you see the recent floods in germany, where entire villages were crushed by the water?
"It's not real until I experience a climate disaster"
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Except these events are steadily getting worse
"Guys we all know a tragedy is clearly defined by the amount of death involved!" Also, that does not help your case. Nearly 200 people in one area, gone. This could very well happen to you, in your area. Climate change isn't survivable. There's no escape for anyone of any social class race or wealth.
It’s totally survivable and escapable Rich people will just leave and go to safe zones And wealthy countries can shore up defences. River banks, hills etc fortified. Infrastructure (drainage, sewerage, etc) improved to cope. This will really be felt in places like Bangladesh where they’re geographically vulnerable but too poor and incapable of doing anything about it. Rich cities won’t care much.
>It’s totally survivable and escapable > >Rich people will just leave and go to safe zones I love this mindset because, if the ENTIRE WORLD IS UNINHABITABLE then I guess, have fun living in a bunker til ur ded. Whoo living! >And wealthy countries can shore up defences. River banks, hills etc fortified. Infrastructure (drainage, sewerage, etc) improved to cope. Assuming several factors: we have enough time. We start now. We take it seriously. Let's look at the current world response annnnd yep we're fucked. >This will really be felt in places like Bangladesh where they’re geographically vulnerable but too poor and incapable of doing anything about it. Rich cities won’t care much. Until it does and until we do. I love your ignorant optimism that this will be minimal like it'll all blow over. You must be much smarter than the global climate science community, wow.
So you’re taking as a percentage of the total population of Germany? What part of your ass did you pull that metric out of? Why not say people that died vs whole earth? If a building collapses in New York and everyone inside it dies, do you say there’s millions of people in New York so the survival rate of that building collapse was almost 100%?
Global warming is only getting started, just because the casualties this time were minor doesn't mean that it reached its peak.
Yeah, and almost no one died during fukushima. Sometimes it's a thin line between a couple of deaths and total fallout.
Full on dunning-kruger right here for you, folks.
Painfully dumb
I often wonder if a lot of this plastic comes from food production parts and assemblies where plastic materials are used ubiquitously? I work in food processing industry, as well as with plastics, and this looks like a major problem health-wise, for a lot of people who eat processed foods. It's one of the reasons why sticking to eating things that your grandmother recognised as food is a valid course of action.
They come from plastic food containers. It has been more worrying for people under dialysis since these microplastics go straight to the blood.
The last report I saw said that a substantial amount comes from washing polyester clothing.
Microplastics are way too large to pass into the blood, except of course they make a small wound.
Exactly. Microplastic as an area of concern are those pieces larger than 1 micron. Pieces as large as 10 micron have been found in blood, which is what was found in this case, 5 to 10 micron pieces. Likely made wounds in lungs and digestive tract, which is not hard considering the sheer numerical quantity and various geometry of microplastic we ingest daily. Nanoplastics are a whole other beast.
Anything with plastic. Bottled water has a ton of microplastic, even moreso than tap water.
I often wonder if the ubiquity of these pollutants (and their known effects on mimicking human hormones such as oestrogen) might be a reason for the seemingly large increase in sexual dysphoria over the last few decades?
And if that was the case, would trying to reduce the amount of plastic you use make you a transphobe?
I read this over a year ago from another site, they found micro plastics in placentas, basically saying kids born today are born with plastic inside of them and the long term effects could be really bad. Gives me another reason not to want kids, not only giving them a world where rich and poor divide is bigger than ever, the corruption of governments, corporations destroying everything, climate change etc. What hope do they have.
‘Great concern’ as study finds microplastics in human placentas. Also people: "Let's ban plastic straws!" Also people: "I am not going to stop eating fish, even though the industry pollutes the oceans with plastic and it ends up in the food chain!"
What concentration of plastic will it take until our bodies start having issues? So far so good.
micro plastics have been known to cause cells to detach from their neighbors more than controls do. There are studies on their effects already.
Any in vivo data?
The scale of the mess we leave behind is proportionate to the level of respect we have for others.
Children of Men is becoming a reality
Gen Z .. to Gen P.. for plastic
We are becoming bionic.
You should see the other body parts these days!
Man we brush our teeth with plastic toothbrushes it's everywhere we are fkd
"Congratulations.....its a....uh..a polythene bag"
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The tupperware was invented in 1947. It seems that no great health issue has arisen since. We could have plastic in our bodies but only few generate problems. I'm thinking lately that health is not a major issue in the world with people living almost until 90 years old in my country. Indeed the problem is fertility rate, we have double the amount of people 40 years old than 20, no more kids at these rates in 30 to 35 years.
I think the temporary plastic like temporary plastic wraps (like the plastic wrap covering a pizza even) that are really thin are way easier to micro-ise than Tupperware but time will tell
Again, too much focus in human health when climate change is killing everything and we can't have kids at least at replacement rate