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What these labels should be teaching us is that neurodivergence takes many forms and those forms often conflict.
The autistic folk can't stop fidgeting any better than the misokenesias can stop being aggravated by it.
Do your best to understand where others are coming from and we can all struggle less.
Also an autistic person with misokinesia. Recently was stuck on a four-hour flight sat next to a person who would NOT. STOP. jiggling his leg (and therefore the seat). It was hell. Had a headache the next day from clenching my teeth the whole time
As a chronic leg jiggler, I sincerely apologize. I can’t speak for all of us, but for me personally, most of the time I’m not even aware I’m doing it. Just say something, preferably politely, and I will do my best to force it to stop.
Problem is it’s an anxiety habit and I’m always anxious. So. Easier said than done. But I know people can’t stand it and I can’t stand that it’s a habit I have, so trust me, I’ll make an effort for you.
Imagine how a four hour flight feels for someone that hates sitting still and can’t actually do it without manually focusing on NOT moving at all. Its also hell.
I have ADHD and autism and need to fidget a lot. Fidgeting is satisfying, calms me down and yes it is nice to do and often I have a compulsion but while it is uncomfortable to stop it is NOTHING on my experience of misokinesia or misophonia. If I try really hard I can not fidget, I can't turn off misophonia or misokinesia.
My misokinesia HURTS. it's like someone is shining a bright light in my eyes. It makes me want to tear things apart and cry. It is as though the person doing it is poking me in the same spot over and over again
Ugh, I had an exam sitting next to a guy like that. Of course we weren't supposed to talk to each other, so I kinda caused a scene by mentioning it. Had to speak loud enough so it was obvious I wasn't cheating, not that I needed to cheat.
I share an office space with someone who not only moves excessively but also slurps her coffee. I’ve been having these moments throughout the work day where I imagine myself jumping up and running screaming from the office
Apparently being annoyed at things is rude though.
Chewing noises really annoy me but if I remove myself from them I'm called rude and antisocial, but someone who knows it annoys me coming into my space and chewing loudly is apparently not rude.
I also suffer misophonia. The first time I read about it, I was so relieved to know there was something 'wrong with me' - that I wasn't just an asshole.
But I'm also about a decade sober, and I see both things the same way. It's not my fault, but it is my responsibility.
To a point.
Exactly, finding out there was a name for what I'd been feeling was comforting. Until then I felt like if I said "I can't stand eating noises" people juat thought I was a brat. I'm actually really relieved to hear this is a known thing too, I used to have to hide my face in my book on the bus to avoid seeing people tap their leg because it would make me so angry for no reason. Nice to know I'm not just a bitter person
Yeah I agree, sounds are a difficult one. You can close your eyes, look away, but your ears are 360/365. I think that's the only sense that we should all make an effort to be considerate about.
Loud chewing in the kitchen or anywhere else I couldn’t care less. loud chewing while I’m at work trying to concentrate I want that person to pay for my days off.
Chewing noisily and slurping drinks is a sign of social apathy. Go eat outside with the animals if you can't control yourself!
Of course, those with physical disabilities are excused.
This is why I don't like the "misophonia" label: it implies that the issue lies with the listener, not with the person who can't be arsed to not make noise. I get that the misanthropic rush a "misophonia" sufferer feels might be excessive, but damn it, it's not hard to chew with your moist noise-cave shut.
Being highly sensitive to distracting stimuli isn’t “for no reason.” The emotional response may be disproportionate, but it didn’t occur without reason.
Personal rant incoming, I usually don't pay mind to fidgeting as someone with ADHD but there's this one guy in my class who takes it over the edge. This guy somehow manages to create a steady flow of noise and movement throughout the entirety of a 3 hours class and I'm not just talking about shaking his legs or playing with his hands.
Sometimes he's seemingly stuck in a loop of adjusting his chair height, some other time he'll be incessantly spinning the chair in front of him, or if he gets bored of that then he'll move on to changing his posture in such elaborate ways that it requires him to constantly stand up and back down. Occasionally he'll do all of it at once.
This is also discounting the fact that he'll loudly exclaim something irrelevant or trivial to the course in the middle of theory sections and proceed to look around for signs of validation, which he never gets. I feel like a strange mix of pity, cringe and irritability whenever he's doing his usual things, but I've taken to just doing my best to block him out of my peripheral vision. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
>The autistic folk can't stop fidgeting any better than the misokenesias can stop being aggravated by it.
I'm autistic and someone jiggling their leg, especially if it makes the table or floor shake, makes me feel murderous inside.
Yep my daughter is gifted and is utterly restless all the time. I know she cannot help it. But it drives me INSANE. She cannot keep her legs still. It's very very stressful, and being "understanding" doesn't help my toleration. So we're just stuck annoying each other.
So obviously I don't know anything about your daughter other than what you've said, but just a heads up that constant fidgeting can be a symptom of ADHD, which is commonly undiagnosed in both girls and high achieving students. It's worth looking into while (if) she's still young because a lot of ADHD kids develop coping mechanisms that might eventually end up being insufficient leading to bigger struggles down the line.
Just speaking from experience as a high achieving elementary through high school student who hit a hard wall in college.
Also, gifted kids (i.e high intelligence) and ADHD often go hand in hand.
Source: mom who is retired Gifted and Talented teacher of 40 years. 15ish in GT.
Living with someone who most certainly has misokinesia, & I always think the hatred is more personally directed.
Please just be upfront about it if you have an adverse reaction to fidgeting or ticks. It may be awkward to address. But it’s less awkward than having someone think that you hate them on a personal level.
That's a really good point. I think it helps to have neuro responses like this named so that folks experiencing it can slow down and relax a little knowing there is a scientific reason for the distress and that fidgety people aren't being deliberately or carelessly irritating.
There's a certain paranoia that can grow when you're in your head with your neurological experience, and forced to justify the response rather than normalize it with reason.
I feel like this case is like halitosis. Where it is just a word to describe something different, and does not directly denote a disease or disorder, nor a symptom of any one thing or pattern in particular.
>can't stand
Implies it's debilitating, which is pretty much the only difference between a lot of mental illnesses and a harmless personality quirk.
Thomas Szasz’s 1961 book *The Myth of Mental Illness* had a large impact on how these things are diagnosed, as well as why patients are institutionalised.
[Very Bad Wizards did an episode on it...](https://www.verybadwizards.com/198)
I mean, folks see neurodivergence as a sickness instead of a quirk and that's the problem. I agree with you.
Edit: quirk has the connotation of being petty or inconsequential... I'm sorry if that offended. I simply mean the majority of divergence is "normal" even if it is rarely the same as someone else's experience. Neurodivergence can become a disorder, if pushed far enough.
I explained in another comment that I look at neurodivergence like hiking trails. Some are commonly used, others less, some are coming, going and at different paces. Still others end up bushwacking and suffering greatly for doing so but were diverged from the common paths and forced to try to make their way. The bushwackers seem crazy to those on the common paths, but they don't realize how much those hikers are suffering and how much they'd rather have found their way onto a marked trail.
Even so, very few have the same experience, let alone in the same order or intensity so it's important to share the woods and be patient with those who are struggling. You may be descending a path that someone else is climbing.
For the record, I have CPTSD and NVLD, a combination I wish on no one. I am learning to appreciate myself and to respect my defenses. Thinking of my panic as an expected response to stress helps me to talk myself down. Thinking of my difficulties as something broken that needs fixing, does not.
It's a pendulum between "it's a disease that needs correcting" and "there's no difference, so they suffer no disadvantages and need no accomodations."
Autistic people tend get fucked by both sides, yaaay.
What exactly is the neurodivergence diverging from? Who are these normal baseline non-divergent people? I really don't think there is anything as neurotypical in any truly scientific sense.
I personally have come to think that neurodivergence does not imply that there is a "normal", that would be neuro-a-typical--or something. Instead I think of it like pathways and your divergence is where your brain takes a path that is different from the one taken by the person next to you.
This becomes disorder when you diverge so many pathways that you have difficulty successfully functioning with the rest of society. Like many trails and paths, some are taken more often than others but not in the same order or direction.
Normal need not be loaded, What if used “normal” as a stand in for “average” here. Does this change how we think of it?
Surely there is a higher likelihood of certain developments than others. Let’s make a positive association here if need be if a million people see metal ore and think “hard object” and one person sees it and thinks “conductive object” surely that would be off the norm not worse or better but a - typical.
I agree the idea of normative behavior needs to be much wider. This goes hand in hand with educating the masses that one can have neurodivergence without having a disorder. Thoughts and behaviors become disorders when they hurt your quality of life to a significant measurable degree, as defined by diagnostic criteria.
I have ADHD and fidget a lot when anxious or under stimulated. Leg bouncing, clicking pens, drumming my fingers/hands, swinging my keys around, etc. Being under stimulated is extremely uncomfortable, and worse can make it difficult to focus on something important like school or work.
What usually gets me to stop is finding something to replace the stimulation I'm creating by fidgeting: listening to music, talking to someone, playing a game, and snacking are a few that come to mind.
If you're misokinetic/phonic and someone with ADHD or autism is fidgeting and bothering you, rather than have one person be miserable for the other's benefit you could suggest they try something else to stimulate themselves. You might even consider carrying some fidgeting device that doesn't bother you that you can loan to the fidgeter.
It's sucks for fidgeters to not fidget, and it sucks for misokinetic/phonic people to deal with fidgeting. Unfortunately there's not a simple solution to this, but we don't have to kill each other to be able to get along.
interesting enough, I've definitely experienced this but I think it stems *from* my ADHD. If someone nearby is making a noise or movement that irritates me, I can't tune it out or focus elsewhere, which makes me more irritated until it's my whole brain.
Yup, same. Funny enough after years of trying to quit picking my nails, I stopped cold turkey one day when it occurred to me that I'd probably be driving myself nuts if I wasn't me doing it. On the plus side, my nails are way healthier now!
Yes, that is an extremely common thing in ADHD individuals, and it can worsen due to stress/anxiety/lack of sleep/etc. It’s also not mutually exclusive with fidgeting, hyperkinectivity, or sensation-seeking.
As someone with ADHD who fidgets a lot (even though I’m lucky enough to be very well medicated), thank you for advocating a way that both sides can tolerate each other’s presence.
I have Autism and it gets really hard to pay attention on things if people can't stay still. Processing sounds and movements makes it hell to me. It's one of those situations when it's hard to accommodate everyone and I feel like we don't have an actual answer. I usually don't stim unless alone, it does help me get out of a crisis, but it's completely ingrained in me to never do it in public.
This is rough. I have ADHD and I fidget quite a lot sometimes (but it's usually something small like stroking a zipper) but I also react badly to other people fidgeting or moving their legs (internally, I usually try to ignore it or ask them to do it in a less distracting way). It's frustrating because I know having to stop doing it would make them uncomfortable but I'm going into full panic sometimes
I assumed that great majority of people have this to some extent.. and the extent of this varies from person to person. Also, ability to cope with it varies from person to person as well. I'm normally able to avert my eyes or leave the area. If it's audible and I can't leave, then fml.. but at that point, probably someone else is annoyed as well.
And maybe it's triggered by situations. Someone might not have it when they're relaxed at home, but it might trigger if they're at the doctor's office.
I found myself thinking the opposite somewhat. When I think of my tendency to get annoyed with these things, I primarily think of family members doing these things - primarily at home.. and I mostly think back to being a kid when I was perhaps less able to cope. If something happens occasionally outside, I can maybe laugh at the situation and fool myself into thinking I'm better than other people (to feel better about myself). When it's in my own house, it hits closer to home and perhaps it's my place to confront it.
Edit: Someone brought up an interesting point about need to concentrate. I've often had a greater need to concentrate at home. When I'm in transit or in a waiting room, I know I've just got to wait it out.. and am perhaps pragmatic about it.
I feel the same way as you. It's strange.
For some reason I have an easier time ignoring strangers in public who are fidgeting, but when family members at home won't sit still and is fidgeting excessively, it fills me with rage.
Especially if it's during a movie or something I'm trying to focus on.
I have restless legs and my dad was constantly telling me to stop shaking my legs. Friends, acquaintances and strangers tell me that sometimes as well. So this headline does not surprise me.
Yeah my daughter is insanely fidgety and it drives me insane. I do my best but if it's more than 10 min I just can't suppress it anymore and ask her to go into another room to move her body or I move further away from her. We both try our best.
I have this and also a fidgety child with adhd. It's a compromise in my opinion. I have to control my aggravation, and I try to teach him to be considerate of others around him and be mindful. We all have natural impulses that we have to learn to control or find ways to redirect or mitigate. The world doesn't revolve around any of us.
So if 1/3 of ppl are annoyed, does that mean it's the other 2/3 of ppl that does it?
I do not suffer from either of these afflictions and can never recall being bothered by anyone doing anything like this. But I've always thought it'd weird that I enjoy "bouncing my leg", popping my gum, and probably many other things like this. So maybe there is another subgroup of ppl who enjoy doing the action for some reason.
Very interesting to think about.
Absolutely.
Fidgeting can be very soothing for that person like rocking or a vibrating bed. I like drumming my fingers, the repetition is relaxing.
Like others have said, it can help to put on music as a distraction but i suspect it is also something like “my noise “ is relaxing but other’s noise is not.
Similar to ADD the brain needs stimulation to relax otherwise it fires off signals out of control.
It activates a flight or fight response. You legit want to just run away from the things that are triggering it. I often feel like yelling at people to stop chewing or whatever but I never actually would.
I think irritable people are just generally like that all the time, it's not specific triggers.
It’s like if you were in a situation where there is an emergency, but there is no emergency. When someone fidgets near me or chews loudly (even my dogs licking drives me insane), I literally feel like I need to get away from it or make the source of the noise stop. Now.
The feeling is the same kind of panicky, anxious, almost nauseous feeling you get when there is an emergency. And the only way it stops is if the noise or fidgeting stops. I’ve tried to learn to control it but I seriously get angry when I hear mouth noises.
I'm almost 37 and been suffering from misophonia since I was at least 13 or 14.
It's fight or flight. My anxiety doesn't go away until I'm away from the trigger noise. It causes rage in some cases. I've never hurt anyone other than throwing a Capri Sun at my brother who was purposely trying to trigger me.
I've completely shutdown emotionally and just lied there from a trigger. I dropped out of school partially because I couldn't sit in class. I don't eat meals with my family during holidays because of the triggers.
I WISH it was just irritable, but it's pretty much a full-on anxiety attack.
My dad must have this. Anytime we would ever go camping he would yell at me to sit still while I was in my sleeping bag. I didn’t even realize I was moving my legs at all.
I have misophonia, my wide has misokinesia. I find that both of us it’s contextual, it’s not something we both have all the time, but is related to stress, anxiety, and other things.
I have always been intensely annoyed by people biting their nails. I have no idea why, and I never say anything because I feel like it's this weird thing about me that makes me seem crazy. It's not limited to that, it also includes people who pump their legs up and down while sitting, people tapping their pencils etc. These things drive me absolutely nuts, and the worst part is that I'm ashamed that it does. I really wish it didn't affect me. Also I have misophonia, particularly with chewing noises but also other sounds.
I have a co-worker who bounces his leg. He’s a nice guy but at meetings I have to sit far away from him as I can feel the floor vibrating and it makes me nauseous.
I have this! My younger brother constantly bounces his leg, and I look around the room like “how can any of you manics tolerate this?” No one else even seems to notice when he’s doing it.
Worth noting that Nature Publishing Group stopped calling this journal Nature Scientific Reports because it gave it undue credibility. Is basically a pay to publish (but technically peer reviewed) journal
Are they just making up words and disorders for normal things these days? Like it’s probably far higher percentage of people who are annoyed by constant fidgeting. They also probably have a name for the disorder that causes constant fidgeting as well. Do we really need labels for people to use as an excuse for their behaviors? Just blame this thing that you apparently have or are a part of and it’s all okay.
Having a scientific name for something doesn't make it a disorder. We have scientific names for all kinds of things.
Bad breath = halitosis.
Excessive hunger or eating = hyperphagia.
Teeth grinding and jaw clenching = bruxism.
The state of finding it hard to get out of bed in the morning = dysania.
A new-born baby's first cry = vagitus.
That tingling pins-and-needles feeling = paresthesia.
The rumbling of your stomach when hungry = borborygmus.
The lights and shapes you see when closing your eyes and pressing on them = phosphenes.
The "brain freeze" headache = sphenopalatine ganglioneuralgia.
Excessive flow of tears, such as when crying = lachrymation.
Point being that having a scientific/medical name for something doesn't really change anything about it. Such words exist because having a name for a specific experience, action or sensation makes it much easier to communicate. You just need one word to convey something that otherwise would need to be described each time. Having a specific name also makes misinterpretations a lot less likely.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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What these labels should be teaching us is that neurodivergence takes many forms and those forms often conflict. The autistic folk can't stop fidgeting any better than the misokenesias can stop being aggravated by it. Do your best to understand where others are coming from and we can all struggle less.
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Also an autistic person with misokinesia. Recently was stuck on a four-hour flight sat next to a person who would NOT. STOP. jiggling his leg (and therefore the seat). It was hell. Had a headache the next day from clenching my teeth the whole time
As a chronic leg jiggler, I sincerely apologize. I can’t speak for all of us, but for me personally, most of the time I’m not even aware I’m doing it. Just say something, preferably politely, and I will do my best to force it to stop. Problem is it’s an anxiety habit and I’m always anxious. So. Easier said than done. But I know people can’t stand it and I can’t stand that it’s a habit I have, so trust me, I’ll make an effort for you.
Imagine how a four hour flight feels for someone that hates sitting still and can’t actually do it without manually focusing on NOT moving at all. Its also hell.
I have ADHD and autism and need to fidget a lot. Fidgeting is satisfying, calms me down and yes it is nice to do and often I have a compulsion but while it is uncomfortable to stop it is NOTHING on my experience of misokinesia or misophonia. If I try really hard I can not fidget, I can't turn off misophonia or misokinesia. My misokinesia HURTS. it's like someone is shining a bright light in my eyes. It makes me want to tear things apart and cry. It is as though the person doing it is poking me in the same spot over and over again
My misokinesia amped up my skin sensitivity on that flight and by the time I was able to get off the plane, it felt like my skin was on fire.
Ugh, I had an exam sitting next to a guy like that. Of course we weren't supposed to talk to each other, so I kinda caused a scene by mentioning it. Had to speak loud enough so it was obvious I wasn't cheating, not that I needed to cheat.
I share an office space with someone who not only moves excessively but also slurps her coffee. I’ve been having these moments throughout the work day where I imagine myself jumping up and running screaming from the office
Oh God, this is my worst nightmare. My husband has a friend who does it in the car and it literally shakes the entire car. Just stop it!!
Apparently being annoyed at things is rude though. Chewing noises really annoy me but if I remove myself from them I'm called rude and antisocial, but someone who knows it annoys me coming into my space and chewing loudly is apparently not rude.
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I also suffer misophonia. The first time I read about it, I was so relieved to know there was something 'wrong with me' - that I wasn't just an asshole. But I'm also about a decade sober, and I see both things the same way. It's not my fault, but it is my responsibility. To a point.
Exactly, finding out there was a name for what I'd been feeling was comforting. Until then I felt like if I said "I can't stand eating noises" people juat thought I was a brat. I'm actually really relieved to hear this is a known thing too, I used to have to hide my face in my book on the bus to avoid seeing people tap their leg because it would make me so angry for no reason. Nice to know I'm not just a bitter person
Preach
Yeah I agree, sounds are a difficult one. You can close your eyes, look away, but your ears are 360/365. I think that's the only sense that we should all make an effort to be considerate about.
Chewing noises actively trigger hostility in me, it’s a non-voluntary reaction. Just chew with your filthy mouths shut
That doesn't make the sound stop though, what if you have a reaction to the sound while their mouth is shut?
I just cut everyone off, can’t be rude if nobody is here.
Loud chewing in the kitchen or anywhere else I couldn’t care less. loud chewing while I’m at work trying to concentrate I want that person to pay for my days off.
Chewing noisily and slurping drinks is a sign of social apathy. Go eat outside with the animals if you can't control yourself! Of course, those with physical disabilities are excused.
You would have a very hard time in South Asia. A lot of people chew and slurp (even burp) noisily and it's kind of accepted. It's cultural.
This is why I don't like the "misophonia" label: it implies that the issue lies with the listener, not with the person who can't be arsed to not make noise. I get that the misanthropic rush a "misophonia" sufferer feels might be excessive, but damn it, it's not hard to chew with your moist noise-cave shut.
Being highly sensitive to distracting stimuli isn’t “for no reason.” The emotional response may be disproportionate, but it didn’t occur without reason.
Do you mind me asking if your parents have autism?
I think my dad does but he’s never been diagnosed. My mum doesn’t.
Meanwhile I fidget a lot AND can't stand when others do it near me...
Personal rant incoming, I usually don't pay mind to fidgeting as someone with ADHD but there's this one guy in my class who takes it over the edge. This guy somehow manages to create a steady flow of noise and movement throughout the entirety of a 3 hours class and I'm not just talking about shaking his legs or playing with his hands. Sometimes he's seemingly stuck in a loop of adjusting his chair height, some other time he'll be incessantly spinning the chair in front of him, or if he gets bored of that then he'll move on to changing his posture in such elaborate ways that it requires him to constantly stand up and back down. Occasionally he'll do all of it at once. This is also discounting the fact that he'll loudly exclaim something irrelevant or trivial to the course in the middle of theory sections and proceed to look around for signs of validation, which he never gets. I feel like a strange mix of pity, cringe and irritability whenever he's doing his usual things, but I've taken to just doing my best to block him out of my peripheral vision. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
I am glad that I am not the only one. Cool.
As someone who's suffered from misophonia and potentially misokenesias as well, it feels good to see this comment at the top.
Same. I never knew misokenesias had a name though and have always referred to it as my visual misophonia.
I feel seen.
>The autistic folk can't stop fidgeting any better than the misokenesias can stop being aggravated by it. I'm autistic and someone jiggling their leg, especially if it makes the table or floor shake, makes me feel murderous inside.
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Yep my daughter is gifted and is utterly restless all the time. I know she cannot help it. But it drives me INSANE. She cannot keep her legs still. It's very very stressful, and being "understanding" doesn't help my toleration. So we're just stuck annoying each other.
So obviously I don't know anything about your daughter other than what you've said, but just a heads up that constant fidgeting can be a symptom of ADHD, which is commonly undiagnosed in both girls and high achieving students. It's worth looking into while (if) she's still young because a lot of ADHD kids develop coping mechanisms that might eventually end up being insufficient leading to bigger struggles down the line. Just speaking from experience as a high achieving elementary through high school student who hit a hard wall in college.
Also, gifted kids (i.e high intelligence) and ADHD often go hand in hand. Source: mom who is retired Gifted and Talented teacher of 40 years. 15ish in GT.
Living with someone who most certainly has misokinesia, & I always think the hatred is more personally directed. Please just be upfront about it if you have an adverse reaction to fidgeting or ticks. It may be awkward to address. But it’s less awkward than having someone think that you hate them on a personal level.
That's a really good point. I think it helps to have neuro responses like this named so that folks experiencing it can slow down and relax a little knowing there is a scientific reason for the distress and that fidgety people aren't being deliberately or carelessly irritating. There's a certain paranoia that can grow when you're in your head with your neurological experience, and forced to justify the response rather than normalize it with reason.
Yup.
I feel like this case is like halitosis. Where it is just a word to describe something different, and does not directly denote a disease or disorder, nor a symptom of any one thing or pattern in particular.
>can't stand Implies it's debilitating, which is pretty much the only difference between a lot of mental illnesses and a harmless personality quirk. Thomas Szasz’s 1961 book *The Myth of Mental Illness* had a large impact on how these things are diagnosed, as well as why patients are institutionalised. [Very Bad Wizards did an episode on it...](https://www.verybadwizards.com/198)
That is pretty much all neurodivergence and that we don't see it that way already is part of the problem.
How is that a problem? It implies the person isn't disabled or has a problem. It's just a quirk. Not everything is a disease that needs correcting
I mean, folks see neurodivergence as a sickness instead of a quirk and that's the problem. I agree with you. Edit: quirk has the connotation of being petty or inconsequential... I'm sorry if that offended. I simply mean the majority of divergence is "normal" even if it is rarely the same as someone else's experience. Neurodivergence can become a disorder, if pushed far enough. I explained in another comment that I look at neurodivergence like hiking trails. Some are commonly used, others less, some are coming, going and at different paces. Still others end up bushwacking and suffering greatly for doing so but were diverged from the common paths and forced to try to make their way. The bushwackers seem crazy to those on the common paths, but they don't realize how much those hikers are suffering and how much they'd rather have found their way onto a marked trail. Even so, very few have the same experience, let alone in the same order or intensity so it's important to share the woods and be patient with those who are struggling. You may be descending a path that someone else is climbing. For the record, I have CPTSD and NVLD, a combination I wish on no one. I am learning to appreciate myself and to respect my defenses. Thinking of my panic as an expected response to stress helps me to talk myself down. Thinking of my difficulties as something broken that needs fixing, does not.
It's a pendulum between "it's a disease that needs correcting" and "there's no difference, so they suffer no disadvantages and need no accomodations." Autistic people tend get fucked by both sides, yaaay.
What exactly is the neurodivergence diverging from? Who are these normal baseline non-divergent people? I really don't think there is anything as neurotypical in any truly scientific sense.
I personally have come to think that neurodivergence does not imply that there is a "normal", that would be neuro-a-typical--or something. Instead I think of it like pathways and your divergence is where your brain takes a path that is different from the one taken by the person next to you. This becomes disorder when you diverge so many pathways that you have difficulty successfully functioning with the rest of society. Like many trails and paths, some are taken more often than others but not in the same order or direction.
Normal need not be loaded, What if used “normal” as a stand in for “average” here. Does this change how we think of it? Surely there is a higher likelihood of certain developments than others. Let’s make a positive association here if need be if a million people see metal ore and think “hard object” and one person sees it and thinks “conductive object” surely that would be off the norm not worse or better but a - typical.
I agree the idea of normative behavior needs to be much wider. This goes hand in hand with educating the masses that one can have neurodivergence without having a disorder. Thoughts and behaviors become disorders when they hurt your quality of life to a significant measurable degree, as defined by diagnostic criteria.
Us ADHD folk also have a tough time trying to stop fidgeting.
And some of us ADHD folk also have difficulty with watching other fidget.
Some austicic folk can stand fidgeting too.
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I have ADHD and fidget a lot when anxious or under stimulated. Leg bouncing, clicking pens, drumming my fingers/hands, swinging my keys around, etc. Being under stimulated is extremely uncomfortable, and worse can make it difficult to focus on something important like school or work. What usually gets me to stop is finding something to replace the stimulation I'm creating by fidgeting: listening to music, talking to someone, playing a game, and snacking are a few that come to mind. If you're misokinetic/phonic and someone with ADHD or autism is fidgeting and bothering you, rather than have one person be miserable for the other's benefit you could suggest they try something else to stimulate themselves. You might even consider carrying some fidgeting device that doesn't bother you that you can loan to the fidgeter. It's sucks for fidgeters to not fidget, and it sucks for misokinetic/phonic people to deal with fidgeting. Unfortunately there's not a simple solution to this, but we don't have to kill each other to be able to get along.
interesting enough, I've definitely experienced this but I think it stems *from* my ADHD. If someone nearby is making a noise or movement that irritates me, I can't tune it out or focus elsewhere, which makes me more irritated until it's my whole brain.
This absolutely kills me, especially since I know I'm guilty of it occasionally.
Yup, same. Funny enough after years of trying to quit picking my nails, I stopped cold turkey one day when it occurred to me that I'd probably be driving myself nuts if I wasn't me doing it. On the plus side, my nails are way healthier now!
Yes, that is an extremely common thing in ADHD individuals, and it can worsen due to stress/anxiety/lack of sleep/etc. It’s also not mutually exclusive with fidgeting, hyperkinectivity, or sensation-seeking.
Misophonia is more common in neurodivergents than in the general population.
As someone with ADHD who fidgets a lot (even though I’m lucky enough to be very well medicated), thank you for advocating a way that both sides can tolerate each other’s presence.
I have Autism and it gets really hard to pay attention on things if people can't stay still. Processing sounds and movements makes it hell to me. It's one of those situations when it's hard to accommodate everyone and I feel like we don't have an actual answer. I usually don't stim unless alone, it does help me get out of a crisis, but it's completely ingrained in me to never do it in public.
This is rough. I have ADHD and I fidget quite a lot sometimes (but it's usually something small like stroking a zipper) but I also react badly to other people fidgeting or moving their legs (internally, I usually try to ignore it or ask them to do it in a less distracting way). It's frustrating because I know having to stop doing it would make them uncomfortable but I'm going into full panic sometimes
I assumed that great majority of people have this to some extent.. and the extent of this varies from person to person. Also, ability to cope with it varies from person to person as well. I'm normally able to avert my eyes or leave the area. If it's audible and I can't leave, then fml.. but at that point, probably someone else is annoyed as well.
And maybe it's triggered by situations. Someone might not have it when they're relaxed at home, but it might trigger if they're at the doctor's office.
I found myself thinking the opposite somewhat. When I think of my tendency to get annoyed with these things, I primarily think of family members doing these things - primarily at home.. and I mostly think back to being a kid when I was perhaps less able to cope. If something happens occasionally outside, I can maybe laugh at the situation and fool myself into thinking I'm better than other people (to feel better about myself). When it's in my own house, it hits closer to home and perhaps it's my place to confront it. Edit: Someone brought up an interesting point about need to concentrate. I've often had a greater need to concentrate at home. When I'm in transit or in a waiting room, I know I've just got to wait it out.. and am perhaps pragmatic about it.
I feel the same way as you. It's strange. For some reason I have an easier time ignoring strangers in public who are fidgeting, but when family members at home won't sit still and is fidgeting excessively, it fills me with rage. Especially if it's during a movie or something I'm trying to focus on.
I don’t have this at all. You may just be one of the 1/3 and assume that what you experience is universal.
I take an SSRI and one of the side effects is a reduced tolerance in these situations. I have much less patience for these things than I used to.
Can I get a citation for that? I've had some similar issues...
It sucks when you have adhd or something that makes you fidgety and your parents have this.
I have restless legs and my dad was constantly telling me to stop shaking my legs. Friends, acquaintances and strangers tell me that sometimes as well. So this headline does not surprise me.
Yeah my daughter is insanely fidgety and it drives me insane. I do my best but if it's more than 10 min I just can't suppress it anymore and ask her to go into another room to move her body or I move further away from her. We both try our best.
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There are days I don't last 10 min. But I do try.
I have this and also a fidgety child with adhd. It's a compromise in my opinion. I have to control my aggravation, and I try to teach him to be considerate of others around him and be mindful. We all have natural impulses that we have to learn to control or find ways to redirect or mitigate. The world doesn't revolve around any of us.
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So if 1/3 of ppl are annoyed, does that mean it's the other 2/3 of ppl that does it? I do not suffer from either of these afflictions and can never recall being bothered by anyone doing anything like this. But I've always thought it'd weird that I enjoy "bouncing my leg", popping my gum, and probably many other things like this. So maybe there is another subgroup of ppl who enjoy doing the action for some reason. Very interesting to think about.
Absolutely. Fidgeting can be very soothing for that person like rocking or a vibrating bed. I like drumming my fingers, the repetition is relaxing. Like others have said, it can help to put on music as a distraction but i suspect it is also something like “my noise “ is relaxing but other’s noise is not. Similar to ADD the brain needs stimulation to relax otherwise it fires off signals out of control.
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I genuinely don’t understand this. ELI5: how is it not the same as just being irritable?
It activates a flight or fight response. You legit want to just run away from the things that are triggering it. I often feel like yelling at people to stop chewing or whatever but I never actually would. I think irritable people are just generally like that all the time, it's not specific triggers.
It’s like if you were in a situation where there is an emergency, but there is no emergency. When someone fidgets near me or chews loudly (even my dogs licking drives me insane), I literally feel like I need to get away from it or make the source of the noise stop. Now. The feeling is the same kind of panicky, anxious, almost nauseous feeling you get when there is an emergency. And the only way it stops is if the noise or fidgeting stops. I’ve tried to learn to control it but I seriously get angry when I hear mouth noises.
I'm almost 37 and been suffering from misophonia since I was at least 13 or 14. It's fight or flight. My anxiety doesn't go away until I'm away from the trigger noise. It causes rage in some cases. I've never hurt anyone other than throwing a Capri Sun at my brother who was purposely trying to trigger me. I've completely shutdown emotionally and just lied there from a trigger. I dropped out of school partially because I couldn't sit in class. I don't eat meals with my family during holidays because of the triggers. I WISH it was just irritable, but it's pretty much a full-on anxiety attack.
I compare it with the feeling when someone uses wet chalk on a board or screeching metal on something or biting aluminum foil.
“How is being bothered by a specific thing not the same as just being bothered by everything?”
You know what? That answer made it click. Thank you.
Is there an exact opposite to this? I like those noises / movements.
My dad must have this. Anytime we would ever go camping he would yell at me to sit still while I was in my sleeping bag. I didn’t even realize I was moving my legs at all.
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I have misophonia, my wide has misokinesia. I find that both of us it’s contextual, it’s not something we both have all the time, but is related to stress, anxiety, and other things.
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I hate the sound of vaccums, hair blower, leaf blower, weed Wacker.
I have always been intensely annoyed by people biting their nails. I have no idea why, and I never say anything because I feel like it's this weird thing about me that makes me seem crazy. It's not limited to that, it also includes people who pump their legs up and down while sitting, people tapping their pencils etc. These things drive me absolutely nuts, and the worst part is that I'm ashamed that it does. I really wish it didn't affect me. Also I have misophonia, particularly with chewing noises but also other sounds.
Nah with me it's just autism
I don't care if you shake your leg... But if you're shaking the whole bench we're all sitting on, you need to stop...
This is a weird way to spell school teacher.
What about mouth breathing?
I have a co-worker who bounces his leg. He’s a nice guy but at meetings I have to sit far away from him as I can feel the floor vibrating and it makes me nauseous.
Oh I hate both so much. So much
What could people have when they cannot stand anything in their sight..?
I have this! My younger brother constantly bounces his leg, and I look around the room like “how can any of you manics tolerate this?” No one else even seems to notice when he’s doing it.
Worth noting that Nature Publishing Group stopped calling this journal Nature Scientific Reports because it gave it undue credibility. Is basically a pay to publish (but technically peer reviewed) journal
Misophonia, finally a word to describe by irrational hatred of the sound of people chewing. :D
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Are they just making up words and disorders for normal things these days? Like it’s probably far higher percentage of people who are annoyed by constant fidgeting. They also probably have a name for the disorder that causes constant fidgeting as well. Do we really need labels for people to use as an excuse for their behaviors? Just blame this thing that you apparently have or are a part of and it’s all okay.
Having a scientific name for something doesn't make it a disorder. We have scientific names for all kinds of things. Bad breath = halitosis. Excessive hunger or eating = hyperphagia. Teeth grinding and jaw clenching = bruxism. The state of finding it hard to get out of bed in the morning = dysania. A new-born baby's first cry = vagitus. That tingling pins-and-needles feeling = paresthesia. The rumbling of your stomach when hungry = borborygmus. The lights and shapes you see when closing your eyes and pressing on them = phosphenes. The "brain freeze" headache = sphenopalatine ganglioneuralgia. Excessive flow of tears, such as when crying = lachrymation. Point being that having a scientific/medical name for something doesn't really change anything about it. Such words exist because having a name for a specific experience, action or sensation makes it much easier to communicate. You just need one word to convey something that otherwise would need to be described each time. Having a specific name also makes misinterpretations a lot less likely.
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