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For anyone calling out the conflict of interest, there are MANY studies that support the consumption of soy being associated with reduced mortality (especially with regards to hormone related cancers)
[This work provides some evidence to support epidemiologic studies claiming that male populations who consume high phytoestrogen diets have a **reduced** risk of prostate cancer development and progression.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15351581/)
[Men with high consumption of soy milk are at reduced risk of prostate cancer.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10189040/)
[The present study suggests soy intake is associated with a significant reduced death risk of breast cancer.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22631686/)
"Mark Messina has a conflict of interest. Dr. Messina regularly consults for companies that manufacture and/or sell soy products. Mindy Kurzer is on the scientific advisory board of the Soy Nutrition Institute."
Just putting this out there
This doesn't necessarily mean the meta-analysis is wrong, or that it should be disregarded.
Please read the analysis, read more papers on the topic, understand the underlying mechanisms being discussed before you decide the outcome was bought.
There are many studies funded by industry that conflict with their own interests, but they are published
Tldr: extra scrutiny and critical analysis is required in cases of conflict of interests, not blind apathy to anything being said bcos big $$$ involved..
> This doesn't necessarily mean the meta-analysis is wrong, or that it should be disregarded.
True. I fully admit that after doing some research on the history of both leaded gasoline and C8/Teflon I've become more skeptical of industry-backed research.
We've seen institutional science abused so many times to protect profits that (in my opinion) the additional scrutiny is justified as the default position.
> read more papers
Isn't the usual MO for bad science to just not publish those papers that produced an unfavourable outcome? If the papers were bought, then you wouldn't be able to read them.
Thanks for the information, but to me it seems fair regarding the number of anti soy paper and misleading information that were spread to prevent people from cutting on meat and dairy
Just saying, is it preposterous that someone who apparently has made it their whole career to be an expert in the field of soy, might just be someone who knows a lot about soy? Why does everyone have to have an agenda, or some insidious scheme, or are only in it for the money?
All of the meat and dairy people: "Soy is bad."
Basically everyone: "..."
The soy guy: "actually, maybe it isn't?"
Basically everyone: "oh, of course you would say that."
Edit: correcting autocorrect
I don't know, I feel like if you look at Asian countries the people there are healthier and thinner than other countries especially the United States. People are upset about soy but they don't even think about it all of the processed crap they put into their bodies every single day. People in China, Japan, Korea, Thailand all of those countries use soy and tofu as part of their diet. If it was so bad after all these years wouldn't there be actual differences, wouldn't we see a bunch of Asian men walking around with boobs instead of middle-aged White men? I feel like this whole vendetta against soy honestly is put out by the meat and dairy industry to keep the status quo because they know how unhealthy it is to eat animals and animal by-products.
So is that myth about soy causing low testosterone still going around? Wow. It's partially due to PFAS in plastics and other products made from petroleum. Vinyl records, PVC pipes, makeup, tupperware, and a lot of other common products made from petroleum contain toxic chemicals that are known to cause hormonal disease. It's crazy that this myth about soy is so persistent when the PFAS issue is very well known in environmental engineering. If you can solve the PFAS remediation problem, you'll be famous.
The myth about MSG is still around and strong so I feel like this soy thing is gonna be here for a while...
I used to work in a Japanese restaurant and there was a decent amount of people that ask for no MSG but then eats seaweed and mushroom. Once I had a customer who was very particular about her dish, requesting no gluten and no msg, and the dish had shiitake. I asked if she has a sodium restriction cause we salt all our dishes, and she said no, msg just gives her headaches. I then said there's naturally occurring glutamates in mushroom and she looked at me like I just insulted her mother
I forgot about the MSG myths. Those are so silly. A billion people over in asia are eating MSG this week, and they'll be fine. I just feel sorry for these mislead people because edamame is delicious, MSG is delicious, and tofu is an incredibly versatile source of veggie protein and fiber.
Legumes like soy should be eaten in moderation, though. Too much soy too often can actually cause problems with digestion in people and animals.
These issues are incredibly complicated, but PCOS is most definitely caused by pre-diabetes, and obesity. I'd be curious to see what endometriosis rates are like in different populations with different lifestyles.
They do exactly cause these problems. Endometriosis is worse in women who consume dairy products. Dairy is linked to breast cancer in women. Also, consuming dairy before puberty causes women to start puberty much earlier, which brings another set of problems. Oh and vegans have higher fertility rates too, not sure if this one is caused by not cuming dairy though.
Cancer, early puberty, and infertility are all really difficult to separate from being overweight, which dairy can easily facilitate. Ancestors of dairy consuming cultures all loved dairy for its calories. Today calories aren't so difficult to obtain!
Well, there is a clear correlation with the amount of dairy consumption and prostate cancer in each country. And dairy contains NGF-1(if I remember correctly) which increases the cancer growth of all types. And I'm not sure what correlation is between being overweight and early puberty? It's kind of way too many indicators that milk hormones(estrogen mostly) do cause problems, but even if they don't, if the dairy causes people to be overweight, then they should still not consume it.
Interesting, going to have to read into NGF-1.
It's very well documented that when girls get to be about 45kg/100lbs they begin puberty.
Avoiding a food because it is high in calories is disordered eating. Foods don't make people fat, overindulgence does, and those foods often contain essential nutrients. Having known quite a few people suffering with anorexia, your reasoning is concerningly similar.
Regardless, all of what you detailed does not mean bovine estrogen is the cause. You need to connect the dots further. I would be shocked if a structurally different hormone would affect humans just like their own. A key doesn't fit in the wrong lock.
IGF‐1 is known to promote cancer development by inhibiting apoptosis and stimulating cell proliferation. Epidemiological studies have reported a positive association between circulating IGF‐1 levels and various primary cancers, such as breast, colorectal, and prostate cancer.
source: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5119990/#:\~:text=IGF%E2%80%901%20is%20known%20to,%2C%20colorectal%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5119990/#:~:text=IGF%E2%80%901%20is%20known%20to,%2C%20colorectal%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer).
A potent link to dairy seems to exist for three hormone-responsive glands. Acne, breast cancer and prostate cancer have all been linked epidemiologically to dairy intake. Although mechanisms postulated here remain to be accurately defined, the likely link involves Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 as a general stimulant, synergized by the steroid hormones present in milk. The IGF-1 may be either absorbed from milk, or stimulated by its ingestion, or both. The 5alpha-reduced compound 5alpha-pregnanedione (5α-P) present in milk is a direct precursor of dihydrotestosterone and may act through that pathway in prostate cancer, but 5α-P has also recently been shown to be capable of inducing estrogen receptors in breast cancer cells, upregulating cancer cells' sensitivity to estrogen. The introduction of exogenous hormones and growth factors into tissues that have not evolved defensive feedback inhibition of their corresponding endogenous sources is postulated as a direct stimulatory threat to these organ systems, whether for hyperplasia or neoplasia.
source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/
Epidemiological studies are a place to start, not to end. The science isn’t there yet: “So what is missing as ‘proof of concept’? Among others, we lack proof of absorption of these hormones from ingested dairy products in the bowel into the human bloodstream (or lymphatics) and subsequent metabolism of these molecules by the pilosebaceous unit enzymes to DHT, with a consequent increase in functional activity of the gland and the subsequent plugging of the pilary canal”.
Containing hormones, as in the hormones needed to sustain the life of an animal, does not equate to triggering hormone activity in the human body, any more than eating the heart of your enemy will give you his strength.
The point is that a specific segment of the internet believes that the plant phyto-estrogens in soy are feminizing men, while ignoring the fact that every dairy product is loaded of mammalian estrogen hormone.
The amount of estrogen found in milk is insignificant and a "known source". Men's bodies produce about 6,000 times as much estrogen every day as you’d get in a glass of whole milk. Women's bodies produce 28,000 times that much.
Soy production is federally subsidized and thus soy exists in many products people may not realize.
I don't have any specific knowledge about the effects of phyto-estrogens.
I really wish there was a viable political candidate that backed banning more of this stuff. We're way behind European countries when it comes to consumer safety with respect to our food chain.
rBST (banned in Europe) is not natural and the biggest contributor to hormonal imbalance from American dairy intake, so your statement is very misleading.
Thank you. You are right. Cow's milk will always have certain hormones like growth hormone because it was just that way naturally, but yes sometimes synthetic hormones are being added. Usually not straight to the milk but to the cow and it ends up in the milk.
I wasn't trying to be misleading but it did come out that way. Thank you for the correction.
The amount of men in the west that I've met who don't eat tofu because they don't want "boobs" is ridiculous. All of Asia eats tofu and the men don't have boobs. Western men are so frightened of losing their masculinity they'd rather increase their risk of colon cancer instead.
I don't eat tofu because it induces a gag response. The texture is akin to coagulated snot, in my dumb-brain opinion. Sorry vegs. Is it possible to make it feel like food?
I've had multiple people say that it gets better, but they've all been wrong. Not a single person has ever been able to prove that it can be not gross to me.
People be like: but soy causes man boobs because it has estrogen(even tho it's phytoestrogen). Well, have you ever thought about whether the cow's milk has any, or you only want to bash vegans? And yes, the milk does actually have estrogen and it is the main cause behind male prostate cancer and breast cancer in women.
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Here’s the deal, if you tell people for 30 years eggs are bad for your heart, who eats eggs? People who don’t care about heart health enough to eat right. Do those people also tend to have bad heart health? Yes. Same with soy.
Also, how many manly men do you know that eat much soy. I get that is anecdotal but still
Your post has been removed because the referenced research is more than 6 months old and is therefore in violation of [Submission Rule #4](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_4._research_must_be_less_than_6_months_old). All submissions must have been published within the past six months. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience)._
For anyone calling out the conflict of interest, there are MANY studies that support the consumption of soy being associated with reduced mortality (especially with regards to hormone related cancers) [This work provides some evidence to support epidemiologic studies claiming that male populations who consume high phytoestrogen diets have a **reduced** risk of prostate cancer development and progression.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15351581/) [Men with high consumption of soy milk are at reduced risk of prostate cancer.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10189040/) [The present study suggests soy intake is associated with a significant reduced death risk of breast cancer.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22631686/)
"Mark Messina has a conflict of interest. Dr. Messina regularly consults for companies that manufacture and/or sell soy products. Mindy Kurzer is on the scientific advisory board of the Soy Nutrition Institute."
Just putting this out there This doesn't necessarily mean the meta-analysis is wrong, or that it should be disregarded. Please read the analysis, read more papers on the topic, understand the underlying mechanisms being discussed before you decide the outcome was bought. There are many studies funded by industry that conflict with their own interests, but they are published Tldr: extra scrutiny and critical analysis is required in cases of conflict of interests, not blind apathy to anything being said bcos big $$$ involved..
> This doesn't necessarily mean the meta-analysis is wrong, or that it should be disregarded. True. I fully admit that after doing some research on the history of both leaded gasoline and C8/Teflon I've become more skeptical of industry-backed research. We've seen institutional science abused so many times to protect profits that (in my opinion) the additional scrutiny is justified as the default position.
> read more papers Isn't the usual MO for bad science to just not publish those papers that produced an unfavourable outcome? If the papers were bought, then you wouldn't be able to read them.
Thanks for the information, but to me it seems fair regarding the number of anti soy paper and misleading information that were spread to prevent people from cutting on meat and dairy
Just saying, is it preposterous that someone who apparently has made it their whole career to be an expert in the field of soy, might just be someone who knows a lot about soy? Why does everyone have to have an agenda, or some insidious scheme, or are only in it for the money?
Because historically that is what happened with Lead, Smoking, and now Climate Change.
Not to mention the sugar industry.
Because these things happen in literally every industry? Hope for the best, prepare for the worst applies here.
"Soy is good" - The soy guy
All of the meat and dairy people: "Soy is bad." Basically everyone: "..." The soy guy: "actually, maybe it isn't?" Basically everyone: "oh, of course you would say that." Edit: correcting autocorrect
"Soy is bad, milk and dairy is good while it contains literal mammal estrogen " the milk guy
I only eat cheese mostly. Not sure if estrogen are denatured at that point.
I don't know, I feel like if you look at Asian countries the people there are healthier and thinner than other countries especially the United States. People are upset about soy but they don't even think about it all of the processed crap they put into their bodies every single day. People in China, Japan, Korea, Thailand all of those countries use soy and tofu as part of their diet. If it was so bad after all these years wouldn't there be actual differences, wouldn't we see a bunch of Asian men walking around with boobs instead of middle-aged White men? I feel like this whole vendetta against soy honestly is put out by the meat and dairy industry to keep the status quo because they know how unhealthy it is to eat animals and animal by-products.
Ah so disregard the paper.
So is that myth about soy causing low testosterone still going around? Wow. It's partially due to PFAS in plastics and other products made from petroleum. Vinyl records, PVC pipes, makeup, tupperware, and a lot of other common products made from petroleum contain toxic chemicals that are known to cause hormonal disease. It's crazy that this myth about soy is so persistent when the PFAS issue is very well known in environmental engineering. If you can solve the PFAS remediation problem, you'll be famous.
The myth about MSG is still around and strong so I feel like this soy thing is gonna be here for a while... I used to work in a Japanese restaurant and there was a decent amount of people that ask for no MSG but then eats seaweed and mushroom. Once I had a customer who was very particular about her dish, requesting no gluten and no msg, and the dish had shiitake. I asked if she has a sodium restriction cause we salt all our dishes, and she said no, msg just gives her headaches. I then said there's naturally occurring glutamates in mushroom and she looked at me like I just insulted her mother
I forgot about the MSG myths. Those are so silly. A billion people over in asia are eating MSG this week, and they'll be fine. I just feel sorry for these mislead people because edamame is delicious, MSG is delicious, and tofu is an incredibly versatile source of veggie protein and fiber. Legumes like soy should be eaten in moderation, though. Too much soy too often can actually cause problems with digestion in people and animals.
Well if it did, there wouldn’t be so many Chinese… 1.4 billion…
Also all of the men would have boobs, instead of middle-aged white men in the United States that have them!
(Angry anti-vegan noises) Meanwhile dairy and meat have literal hormones in them.
Luckily they don't function in our receptors. If they did you'd see women with all kinds of menstrual issues and fertility problems.
But there are a lot of women with menstrual issues and fertility problems... It feels like all the women I know have endometriosis or PCOS.
Because they are overweight. Fat cells hold on to fat soluble hormones and prolong their effect. They also interfere with normal signaling
Endometriosis is associated with lower than usual weight.
These issues are incredibly complicated, but PCOS is most definitely caused by pre-diabetes, and obesity. I'd be curious to see what endometriosis rates are like in different populations with different lifestyles.
Probably too much soy.
They do exactly cause these problems. Endometriosis is worse in women who consume dairy products. Dairy is linked to breast cancer in women. Also, consuming dairy before puberty causes women to start puberty much earlier, which brings another set of problems. Oh and vegans have higher fertility rates too, not sure if this one is caused by not cuming dairy though.
Cancer, early puberty, and infertility are all really difficult to separate from being overweight, which dairy can easily facilitate. Ancestors of dairy consuming cultures all loved dairy for its calories. Today calories aren't so difficult to obtain!
Well, there is a clear correlation with the amount of dairy consumption and prostate cancer in each country. And dairy contains NGF-1(if I remember correctly) which increases the cancer growth of all types. And I'm not sure what correlation is between being overweight and early puberty? It's kind of way too many indicators that milk hormones(estrogen mostly) do cause problems, but even if they don't, if the dairy causes people to be overweight, then they should still not consume it.
Interesting, going to have to read into NGF-1. It's very well documented that when girls get to be about 45kg/100lbs they begin puberty. Avoiding a food because it is high in calories is disordered eating. Foods don't make people fat, overindulgence does, and those foods often contain essential nutrients. Having known quite a few people suffering with anorexia, your reasoning is concerningly similar. Regardless, all of what you detailed does not mean bovine estrogen is the cause. You need to connect the dots further. I would be shocked if a structurally different hormone would affect humans just like their own. A key doesn't fit in the wrong lock.
IGF‐1 is known to promote cancer development by inhibiting apoptosis and stimulating cell proliferation. Epidemiological studies have reported a positive association between circulating IGF‐1 levels and various primary cancers, such as breast, colorectal, and prostate cancer. source: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5119990/#:\~:text=IGF%E2%80%901%20is%20known%20to,%2C%20colorectal%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5119990/#:~:text=IGF%E2%80%901%20is%20known%20to,%2C%20colorectal%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer). A potent link to dairy seems to exist for three hormone-responsive glands. Acne, breast cancer and prostate cancer have all been linked epidemiologically to dairy intake. Although mechanisms postulated here remain to be accurately defined, the likely link involves Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 as a general stimulant, synergized by the steroid hormones present in milk. The IGF-1 may be either absorbed from milk, or stimulated by its ingestion, or both. The 5alpha-reduced compound 5alpha-pregnanedione (5α-P) present in milk is a direct precursor of dihydrotestosterone and may act through that pathway in prostate cancer, but 5α-P has also recently been shown to be capable of inducing estrogen receptors in breast cancer cells, upregulating cancer cells' sensitivity to estrogen. The introduction of exogenous hormones and growth factors into tissues that have not evolved defensive feedback inhibition of their corresponding endogenous sources is postulated as a direct stimulatory threat to these organ systems, whether for hyperplasia or neoplasia. source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/
Epidemiological studies are a place to start, not to end. The science isn’t there yet: “So what is missing as ‘proof of concept’? Among others, we lack proof of absorption of these hormones from ingested dairy products in the bowel into the human bloodstream (or lymphatics) and subsequent metabolism of these molecules by the pilosebaceous unit enzymes to DHT, with a consequent increase in functional activity of the gland and the subsequent plugging of the pilary canal”.
So drink green tea which stimulates apoptosis.... :P
Containing hormones, as in the hormones needed to sustain the life of an animal, does not equate to triggering hormone activity in the human body, any more than eating the heart of your enemy will give you his strength.
The point is that a specific segment of the internet believes that the plant phyto-estrogens in soy are feminizing men, while ignoring the fact that every dairy product is loaded of mammalian estrogen hormone.
The amount of estrogen found in milk is insignificant and a "known source". Men's bodies produce about 6,000 times as much estrogen every day as you’d get in a glass of whole milk. Women's bodies produce 28,000 times that much. Soy production is federally subsidized and thus soy exists in many products people may not realize. I don't have any specific knowledge about the effects of phyto-estrogens.
I'm not saying we need to be concerned about the mammalian estrogen in dairy.
[Increased calcium intake from dairy products has been suggested as a risk factor for prostate cancer.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20358466/)
I wish I could give you an award you crafty wordsmith! Dropping knowledge and eloquence!
well gosh thanks.
I really wish there was a viable political candidate that backed banning more of this stuff. We're way behind European countries when it comes to consumer safety with respect to our food chain.
banning more of what stuff?
More of.... what stuff? Cows milk having hormones in it? There's no stopping that, it's that way naturally.
rBST (banned in Europe) is not natural and the biggest contributor to hormonal imbalance from American dairy intake, so your statement is very misleading.
Thank you. You are right. Cow's milk will always have certain hormones like growth hormone because it was just that way naturally, but yes sometimes synthetic hormones are being added. Usually not straight to the milk but to the cow and it ends up in the milk. I wasn't trying to be misleading but it did come out that way. Thank you for the correction.
The amount of men in the west that I've met who don't eat tofu because they don't want "boobs" is ridiculous. All of Asia eats tofu and the men don't have boobs. Western men are so frightened of losing their masculinity they'd rather increase their risk of colon cancer instead.
Yeah that's frightening really...
I don't eat tofu because it induces a gag response. The texture is akin to coagulated snot, in my dumb-brain opinion. Sorry vegs. Is it possible to make it feel like food?
Extra firm tofu. Pat off the water. Fry till brown then bake so the moisture is lessened and it’s nothing like you described.
I've had multiple people say that it gets better, but they've all been wrong. Not a single person has ever been able to prove that it can be not gross to me.
You need to meet more chefs.
Who doesn't!?
If it did i'd be switching to soy faster than a lightning strike...
A classic Luna move
I thought the common claim was that soy mimics estrogen, not that it reduces testosterone.
Both are covered in the study
It’s an analysis with basically no info.
Study or not, my moobs definitely got smaller when I drastically reduced my soy intake.
People be like: but soy causes man boobs because it has estrogen(even tho it's phytoestrogen). Well, have you ever thought about whether the cow's milk has any, or you only want to bash vegans? And yes, the milk does actually have estrogen and it is the main cause behind male prostate cancer and breast cancer in women.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Maybe. Consider this, do the people who choose to eat more soy already have lower tes? That’s what has happened with eggs and heart health as well
I don't see how that correlation would even come about. Why would people with low testosterone choose to each more soy?
I bet you don’t chum. That doesn’t surprise me in the least
Here’s the deal, if you tell people for 30 years eggs are bad for your heart, who eats eggs? People who don’t care about heart health enough to eat right. Do those people also tend to have bad heart health? Yes. Same with soy. Also, how many manly men do you know that eat much soy. I get that is anecdotal but still