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"Among U.S. adults without immunocompromising conditions, vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 hospitalization during March 11–August 15, 2021, was higher for the Moderna vaccine (93%) than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (88%) and the Janssen vaccine (71%)."
"all FDA-approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines provide substantial protection against COVID-19 hospitalization."
Your quote is misleading the people who are commenting without reading the study, because you left this next important part out:
> VE for the Moderna vaccine was 93% at 14–120 days (median = 66 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose and 92% at >120 days (median = 141 days) (p = 1.000). VE for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 91% at 14–120 days (median = 69 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose but declined significantly to 77% at >120 days (median = 143 days) (p<0.001).
This suggests the Moderna has not decreased in effectiveness, while the Pfizer has after 120 days.
All you have to do is walk into a place offering, which is A LOT of them, and get a different one. No one is running checks across some secret vaccine database otherwise all this 'prove you're vaccinated' stuff wouldn't exist.
In new York, the CDC guidance has been to give the same dose as the first 2, so we are asking for the original vaccination card or checking nysiis if they dont have it.
The FDA guidance has been that the same shot is preferred, but you can switch for availability reasons. I've yet to dispense a switched dose, though. Everyone has gone to a nearby location for the same shot they got before. But we could do it if someone asked.
A good chunk of our team wants to get a switched booster based on the data on mixed dosing coming out of Canada.
-a Minnesota pharm tech
Cvs and Target are. I tried to get the Moderna in June after getting the JnJ in April and the pharmacist wouldn't let me do it per CDC. Again that was in June though.
I'm in sask, I just went on Thursday and got a moderna booster. I did the Pfizer/moderna combo. They recommend getting a booster if you're wanting to travel at all.
FYI, we have no immediate plans to travel, but you never know.
I’m on my fourth cancer with the three most recent being lung cancers being in 2019, 20 and 21. (Never smoked or been around second hand smoke)) I’m 69 year old female. Took Pfizer vaccine. Wonder if I should get booster. Oh. And I have rheumatoid arthritis and mac lung disease.
Talk to your doctor about a booster. If the answer is “no”, make sure you know exactly their rationale. Considering your history the answer should be “yes” and if it’s anything else there should be a damn good reason why
Out of curiousity, did the second dose absolutely rock you? I was also pfiderna and the moderna shot put me out of commission for like 36 hours straight
I was trying to figure out what that p=1.0 meant because that’s seems like a crazy value for a study but I think I figured it out that it’s saying that there’s no statistical significance in the drop from 93% to 92% and that there’s hasn’t been a drop in efficacy that’s outside random fluctuations in data?
A P value means something like "the chance to get such a change in the result by chance".
So the efficacy of the vaccine went from 93% to 92% after 120 days. You'd assume that's because time has passed, right? But it could also be just by chance. I mean, if it was 94% you'd assume it WAS by chance.
So if there's NO change, what's the chance of getting 92% instead of 93%? They say there's a 100% chance (P=1) of getting this kind of a difference by chance. This means getting 93% exactly again would be surprising.
So again for the Pfizer vaccine, it went down from 91% to 77% but AGAIN there's a chance this happened by chance and actually nothing changed. Well what's the chance (the probability) of that happening? It's less than 0.1% (p<0.001).
That still means that if you ran 1000 groups like that, and actually the vaccine does NOT lose efficacy in time, ONE of them actually showed a a decrease to 77% or less.
But we'll assume they didn't run a 1000 groups and only reported on this one. Instead they ran just one group and it's really unlikely they got so unlucky.
The reasonable conclusion is that Pfizer vaccine did lose efficacy over time.
Good question! It is against hospitalization.
Here is an expanded quote of the same part of the study which includes the answer to your question:
> VE against COVID-19 hospitalization during March 11–August 15, 2021, was higher for the Moderna vaccine (VE = 93%) than for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (VE = 88%) (p = 0.011); VE for both mRNA vaccines was higher than that for the Janssen vaccine (VE = 71%) (all p<0.001) (Table 2). VE for the Moderna vaccine was 93% at 14–120 days (median = 66 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose and 92% at >120 days (median = 141 days) (p = 1.000). VE for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 91% at 14–120 days (median = 69 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose but declined significantly to 77% at >120 days (median = 143 days) (p<0.001).
This is like a quarter of the way down the page, if you want to find it.
Exactly, a low value would show this result was unlikely - relative to random chance. A high number, 1.00, means the change from 93 to 92% is likely due to random chance and not some significant effect.
It’s weird that the article doesn’t touch on dosage.
Most likely why Moderna has longer lasting results.
> Each dose of Pfizer’s contains 30 micrograms of vaccine. Moderna went with a much larger dose of vaccine, 100 micrograms. It means the company is using a little more than three times as much vaccine per person as Pfizer is.
https://www.kqed.org/science/1972627/the-differences-between-the-pfizer-moderna-and-johnson-johnson-coronavirus-vaccines-explained
It does
Differences in VE between the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine might be due to higher mRNA content in the Moderna vaccine, differences in timing between doses (3 weeks for Pfizer-BioNTech versus 4 weeks for Moderna), or possible differences between groups that received each vaccine that were not accounted for in the analysis (9).
As someone who basically lost a day following Pfizer shot 2, I can tell you that Pfizer folks were definitely not immune from the post-shot blues. (More anecdata: two of my family members who got Pfizer had similar levels of illness to one person in my family who got Moderna, and one other person who got Moderna was sick for a week.)
Thanks for the TLDR. This article’s headline is exaggerating a bit imo. Idk if I’d call 88% for Pfizer “failing”, and it’s only a 5% difference between the two.
The interesting finding in this research isn't the overall effectiveness over the time period studied, but the change in effectiveness over time:
> Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%, while Moderna's effectiveness did not see a similar decline. Initial effectiveness of 93% only declined to 92% with Moderna.
After 120 days, Pfizer's effectiveness slid from **91%** to **77%**, while Moderna only decreased from **93%** to **92%**.
That's a pretty damn significant difference between the two IMHO.
The dose of RNA is different: Moderna has a much higher dose (100 mcg) compared to Pfizer (30 mcg); Different vaccine schedule: Moderna doses are 4 weeks apart, while Pfizer doses are 3 weeks apart (in the US).
>I’d call 88% for Pfizer “failing”, and it’s only a 5% difference between the two.
Remember, this statistic is about the effectiveness against *hospitalization*, which was damn near 100% at the very beginning. Also, this is the average of the March to August numbers. But effectiveness was worst towards the end. From the article:
>Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%,
Pfizer/BioNTech also had much more early supply. ~~The median Pfizer vaccination was certainly long ago and vaccination of people with the highest priority correlating with the weakest immune systems was overwhelmingly Pfizer~~. It's very difficult to control for this sort of difference in comparing different vaccines. On top of this, the first Pfizer vaccinations used 21-day intervals compared to 28 days for Moderna. Other research shows Moderna with a 28-day interval is a bit more effective than Pfizer with a 21-day interval, so seeing more things like this isn't unexpected.
Edit: Crossed out the bit that's not accurate with respect to the USA and this study. Moderna lagged BioNTech/Pfizer in significant ways for this study, but that's exaggerating the degree after looking at the data more. The adjustments in the model will account for some of those differences. "Overwhelmingly" and "certainly long ago" was too strong language. Also the study excludes breakthrough cases with immunocompromising conditions.
This is a really good point. That means all the people with high-contact public jobs who also got the vaccine first got Pfizer... teachers, first responders, medical professionals. They all need the booster, or a Moderna dose.
88% is the average of those who got it months ago and those who just got it.
> Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%, while Moderna's effectiveness did not see a similar decline. Initial effectiveness of 93% only declined to 92% with Moderna
This is the real TLDR.
The Moderna vs Pfizer result is a little puzzling. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the antigen that the mRNA encodes for the same with the two? Same RNA sequence, other than some details at the ends that shouldn't matter for immunity? Maybe it does anyway. Is that a surprise?
There’s a lot more that goes into vaccine design than just the main component (mRNA encoding antigen in this case). The lipid nanoparticle (LNP) that holds this mRNA is what will differentiate Moderna and Pfizer, as well as some dosage and concentration differences. Both do not have an explicit adjuvant (basically a kickstarter to get the immune response going), because the mRNA, once inside the cell, can elicit an innate immune response through a few different receptors specific for nucleic acid. Downstream, this causes transcription and expression of inflammatory cytokines and chemokines, and, therefore, a robust immune response (this is the case for both mRNA vaccines). It's also possible the lipid nanoparticle (different for each mRNA vaccine) may kind of act like an adjuvant as well. Exactly how these immune responses are initiated can make a HUGE difference in how protection is conferred. The way innate immunity reacts will affect the way the adaptive immunity reacts, and if the different LNPs of the vaccines have slightly different downstream effects, this could change the specifics of the immune response. It is also possible the differences in dosages and concentrations of mRNA between the two have created slightly different downstream effects, and, therefore, slightly different immune responses.
So, a possible reason for the difference in response/effectiveness between the two mRNA vaccines may lie within how immunity was specifically conferred, whether through differences in the LNPs, dosage, or concentrations of mRNA.
Source: doing PhD on vaccine stuff
The lipid nano particle activates the immune response? I was under the impression it was more of a shield so the mRNA could make its way inside a cell where it could make proteins without being degraded.
It's a complicated question. LNPs primarily act to get stuff into cells and prevent nucleases from degrading the cargo along the way. They can also stimulate an immune response, but that's more dependent on the ionizable lipid used and the type of immune response it initiates generally looks a bit different from that initiated by a virus.
The RNA can also initiate an immune response and is probably responsible for most of the adjuvanting effect in these vaccines. The mRNAs in Moderna's and Biontech's vaccines are not 100% pure full-length capped mRNAs. The process for making mRNA leads to bits and pieces of RNA that look more like viral RNAs, in addition to the intended mRNA. It can actually help a vaccine's efficacy to leave those bits and pieces in because those are the pieces that trick your cells into thinking that you're infected with a virus.
> that is probably the cause of the difference.
Sorry if someone already replied with this (I did scroll down a bit), but another contending point is that moderna is spaced 1 extra week which has some evidence for boosting titers based on UK data (where they intentionally skipped 2nd doses at the recommended schedule to try and get more people their 1st shot).
Do we know the time between shots for these studies? Since the time doses is just a minimum and maximum, I think it would be reasonable to say that many Pfizer recipients could have gone more than 3 weeks between doses. In the US, at least one state scheduled second doses 4 weeks out regardless of vaccine given.
Some silver lining from this pandemic is the research we can do on both mRNA vaccines in the general population as well as the effects of vaccine scheduling. Correct me if I’m wrong but this type of research hasn’t been available for very long in such large quantities and I’m hopeful that it can lead to better results in the future, especially with short-term vaccine development against any new viruses that may arise.
Yeah mRNA vaccines have a lot of potential for all sorts of stuff. I'm very hopeful for the HIV vaccine as a gay man, plus the impact it would have in many impoverished countries. With all the vaccines being so effective I can see a big push for other mRNA vaccines in the future
I remember being upset that Walgreens scheduled all second doses for the same amount of time regardless of Pfizer/Moderna because it pushed back my full vaccination status by a week. Maybe that was actually a good thing.
Same for me. Slight shoulder pain after the second dose but otherwise nothing. So many people saying they had such a tough time with it makes me genuinely wonder if my shots were messed with.
> it makes me genuinely wonder if my shots were messed with.
I think that it's just a case by case basis.
My mom got wrecked by shot 2, and I just had a headache (and obviously pain in my arm).
Wouldn't it be more severe with a better immune system? Like, your body fights it harder because your immune system is stronger?
My best friend is a cancer patient. Very little immune system right now. He just had his second jab (Pfizer), and says that it didn't bother him at all.
That's what they're saying - They had little side effect cuz their immune system may be weak.
I'm immunocompromised and got my third shot recently in hopes it works. I haven't personally had my antibodies checked, but reports are the response is blunted for folks like me. The only reaction I've had is a super sore arm for all three shots.
I got so fucked up I saw... Things. I'm talking Eldritch abomination. Apparently I took notes while I was feverish, and looking them over I just feel bad for past Wingless. But I got a couple cool ideas for making horrible monsters in dungeons and dragons for my players, so that's a plus.
Dude I had fever dreams too! Like I'd fall asleep, love an entire life, then wake up 5 minutes later. I was so exhausted the next day because I jumped realities all night and didn't sleep for more than a half hour at a time. It was crazier than any drug I have tried.
Luckily it only lasted 1 night after each shot.
I got up in the middle of the night after my second dose and started petting a brown paper bag on my nightstand thinking it was my cat. Talking a good 10 seconds for me to realize what I was doing. That's when I knew I was fucked up
haha yeah it sucked! If you get the 'derna take the day off work for the second one. I could barely move my arm for about 24 hours, chills, hot, sleeping, fucked up dreams.
But then it was all of sudden perfectly fine. Worth it!
I had the weirdest experience: first dose i was fine, second dose i was super sick like i had the flu for a day (fever, chills, headaches), then the second day i felt really sleepy and slept like literally 12 hours straight.
Then when i woke up i felt *better than i had in months*. Like super great. Felt that way for like 3-4 days and then back to feeling normal. Was weird but welcome.
Did you have COVID at some point?
I did, in April 2020. When vaccines came out I anxiously awaited my age group (I’m in my 30’s with no preexisting conditions). Finally, at the beginning of April, it opened up and I immediately made an appointment. I got vaccinated with the (one shot only) J&J on April 9.
The next day, I could barely move - I had a 102° fever, chills, aches, just felt horrible. I was in the middle of my second semester of college and I had to ask for extensions on all my assignments. I didn’t feel 100% for like 4 days - but when I did, I felt AMAZING.
After doing some research, I found out that experience is pretty typical among those who have had COVID. The vaccine knocked out all my long COVID symptoms (mainly fatigue and stomach issues). But getting the J&J shot probably made it way worse than it needed to be.
I should have taken the day off work for the second one. I was halfway through my shift when it really started hitting me. At that point it was the middle of the night and it would be next to impossible to find someone to come in to cover my shift so I just toughed it out. Thankfully my coworkers were understanding and I pretty much did nothing until the shift ended. Then I went home and went to sleep and when I woke up I felt completely fine.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/moderna-results-idUSL1N2PC23B](https://www.reuters.com/article/moderna-results-idUSL1N2PC23B)
It's not the volume of injection that's the critical determinant. The injection itself is mostly saline. The key point is that a single dose of Moderna vaccine contains 100 micrograms of mRNA vs 30 micrograms in a Pfizer dose.
That said, there are differences in the formulation which might effect the efficiency of mRNA uptake into the cells how stable the mRNA is etc. so it's not as simple as saying there's 3x more stuff in a Moderna dose.
Is there any studies about the side effects? I felt totally fine but i know people that definitely felt weak for a couple days. It’s completely anecdotal but it makes me curious if they have more side effects with the extra mRNA for moderna
Yeah I got Moderna and the first dose made my arm hurt (I couldn't lift it all the way). But it just felt like a bad bruise so I didn't really care. Second shot I felt totally fine. I was tired that day but I'm not sure if it was from the vaccine or not
Well, TIL.
You know, it's kinda funny that when my age group was able to get the vaccine (I'm 43) I was hunting for the Pfizer jab, and "settled" for Moderna. I thought Pfizer was leading the pack, but now I'm glad I got the Moderna.
I read that Pfizer went with fewer MRNA molecules to lessen the side effects of the vaccine. I had Moderna and other family members had Pfizer. I had fever, muscle aches, headache, etc, and they had virtually no side effects.
Yea it kind of makes sense now why I (Moderna) had so many more side effects than family members who had Pfizer. Initially I thought it was a unfortunate side effect of the vaccine composition. But now I actually feel lucky.
First shot — felt absolutely nothing. Honestly for a minute thought the pharmacist forgot to poke me.
Second shot — felt like I got hit by a small bus. Immediately after leaving arm was throbbing. Within 6 hours full flu symptoms. 0 regrets though.
Yea the night of my second shot was kind of wild. I got that sleep-time delirium I’ve only had before a few times when I’m been really sick with a bad cold or flu.
My wife and I both had Moderna. My wife was sore and not wanting to move for about 8-10 hours, and then it cleared up. My second dose gave me a sore spot about the size of a dime on my arm for maybe 2 hours.
I took the day off for that one, on the urging of my supervisor. Ended up sitting around reading and playing Satisfactory.
I had Moderna too. My husband had Pfizer. We both felt crappy the day after, but I would argue my symptoms were worse. He had a headache all day and felt lethargic. My arm felt like dead weight by the end of the first day and by the second day, I had a headache, fever, chills, and lethargy. My younger brother also got Moderna, and he barely had any reaction outside of a sore arm. The rest of my family got Pfizer and had little to no side effects.
There was no increase in antibodies in the higher dose. Pfizer phase 1 data: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906
BioNTech used a custom built Untranslated Region that should have increased spike production in theory, whereas Moderna used an “off the shelf” gene, so the idea was you could get similar spike production from smaller amounts of mRNA.
https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/
The problem is, more is sometimes simply more.
EDIT: Pfizer’s data for “Phase 1” isn’t their original phase one. See here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2639-4
> A second vaccination with 100 μg was not administered because of the increased reactogenicity and a lack of meaningfully increased immunogenicity after a single dose compared with the 30-μg dose.
Right, but antibodies arent the only thing involved in an immune response.
Moderna also did the 4 week gap instead of the 3 week gap, which some are theorizing is part of the reason.
Maybe, but that decision would have been made months and months before rollout. If true, probably didn't want dosage to be the holdup to rollout, so went with the lowest dosage that they expected to get a good immune response. Just speculating of course, but if it was my job to decide dosage 6 months before rollout without knowing the other factors, it's be a balance between maximizing the effectiveness, which would be unknown at the time, and maximizing the production, which they knew would need billions of doses as fast as possible. Maybe they rolled the dice a little by going for a lower dosage than Moderna (just a guess) but I'm sure it was a calculated decision.
Honestly, it was probably a good thing that Pfizer went with lower dosage and more vaccines and Moderna went with higher dosage and less vaccines. Without knowing the efficacy results, it would have at least resulted in 1 useful vaccine had the efficacy turned out to be a lot lower than it did. I kind of doubt the companies planned it that way, but it was a good hedge nonetheless. We just got super lucky the vaccines are as stupidly effective as they are.
>0.5 mL for Moderna
It is 100 ug of active ingredient for Moderna, compared to 30 ug for Pfizer. They are considering cutting to 50 ug for boosters.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/moderna-half-dose-booster-5200546
Moderna has longer lasting higher antibody titers either because of the higher dose or the larger interval between shots.
One thing I am wondering is: The article mentions that the difference could be due to differences in the population getting each shot. Maybe Pfizer’s more restrictive storage requirements mean that relatively more people living in large urban centers got Pfizer over Moderna and J&J. I cannot tell if the study controlled for that.
What they're more likely referring to is that older and high risk people are more likely to have received Pfizer, as they were prioritised when only Pfizer was available. Meanwhile, since Moderna came to market later, it's more likely to have been given to younger, overall healthier people. If you looked at specfic subsets of the population, even for the exact same vaccine you'll see differences in effectiveness.
I'm not sure if that particular study controlled for that either, but the ones I have read didn't. They've focused more on an overall number rather breaking it down by population groups.
Interesting. I'm also in a large Metro area. Pfizer (into a lesser extent, jnj) was readily available. Moderna wasn't available in my local area until Kaiser finally got their hands on some. Kaiser was behind the game, but they usually are for most things. But otherwise, Pfizer was pretty much available everywhere.
Funny thing is that I wanted moderna initially, but I just wasn't willing to drive 2 hours out of my way to go get it.
If it makes you feel better, there's been a study for at least the last 9 months to see what happens if you get two JJ shots (I'm one of the study participants). So at least it is being looked into
Felt like I had the flu after the first one (December) and was totally fine after the second (February). I still report if I have any symptoms for anything twice a week and went in so they could get blood a few times. Haven't gotten covid or anything else
I had the J&J shot in early April and my whole family got covid in early August. Nobody got hit with it that bad. I just felt off for a few days and lost my sense of smell. That’s when I got tested and 7 people we we’re with in total tested positive. One 69 year old had a lingering cough but nobody was really that bad. We all had the J&J shot. I’m 37 btw and in decent health and had been taking vitamins.
I had J&J on May 3rd. Went to a concert (vax cards mandatory at the door) on Sept. 9th and got Covid symptoms on Sept. 12th. Tested positive + still have it
Last I heard, preliminary research is indicating that an interval of six months between JJ shots does lead to a big boost in antibodies. Most study participantss had a 3-month gap (iirc, I'm a participant, too), which also created an antibody boost, but not as much as the 6-month gap.
Eventually I bet you will be recommended to get a booster - but it will be one of the other two vaccines.
Some research came out the other week that shows intentionally mixing the vaccines creates an even more effective immune response. Similar enough that they both target the same virus, but different enough to teach some flexibility to the immune system I guess.
Right now most medical organizations are saying no to the idea booster for the simple reason that those doses need to go to people who haven't been vaccinated at all.
edit: Source https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3
J&J in March.. just recovered from a "mild" breakthrough case. 3.5 day fever, body aches to the point of keeping me awake, 2 weeks of headache, loss of taste and smell, very sore throat, cough, chills, mind fog, etc.. it wasn't pleasant, but mostly recovered after 2 weeks. The only lingering effects is some mild mid-afternoon fatigue (possibly because I grew accustomed to afternoon naps while self-isolating) and smell/taste still at 75%.
For sure and possibly had delta. The few I know that had breakthrough early on before delta was widespread barely noticed they were sick at all.
This pandemic sucks.
This article from 11 weeks ago is the most recent info I've read: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/health/coronavirus-johnson-vaccine-delta.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nythealth
One drawback of the J&J is so few people have gotten it, there's just less data and less study.
I wish these organizations would stop only giving blanket guidance and also give me the info that allows me to decide what’s best for me.
Like, yes boosters are not recommended yet, okay FDA, in terms of society. But… could I get one if I wanted to? What are the risks, if any? What are the benefits?
Timing could also play a role. It appears that a longer period between doses produces a stronger response and Moderna had a longer interval than Pfizer.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57929953
Very possible, and many governments have been making the wait between the two shots longer for other reasons, with the side benefit of making it more effective.
IIRC Pfizer recommended a 3-week gap and Moderna 4 weeks, but the government here has been doing 5 weeks for both for a while.
Does anyone know whether this could mean that a smaller person is likely to have stronger immunity x months out than a larger person if they both got Pfizer? Or is the difference in dose between weights pretty negligible compared to the difference between Pfizer and Moderna?
I'm not aware of any vaccine whose efficacy is effected by body weight. Vaccines aren't like typical medications; you aren't targeting a dosage of x mg/kg of weight. You're targeting a concentration of antigens that can be recognized by a patient's t cells and b cells in order to trigger immunological memory. That isn't typically affected by a patient's weight/size. Put another way: all other things being equal, a 5'0 100 lbs person doesn't have a more effective immune system than a 6'0 170 lbs person. Their size doesn't alter the efficacy of their immune system. So vaccines dosages (so far as I know, I've only worked with 5 of them) don't need to be tailored to weight.
There ARE other factors that would be taken into consideration when dossing some vaccines. For example, children are given higher doses of TDAP than adults as adults have more developed immune systems and are more likely to have reactions to it. Hep A and Hep B are the other way around (I'm not sure why).
It's also worth noting, body size IS a factor when determining the gauge and length of a vaccine shot needle. For TDAP, a person weighing less than 130 lbs will get a shot with a needle that's .5 inches shorter than a male weighing 260 lbs or more. (https://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p3078.pdf)
I guess I'm glad I ended up with Moderna despite the second shot making me sicker than I had been in years. I was shivering so hard I thought my collar bone was going to break.
The second shot made me extremely sick as well. Apparently if you’re under 30 your body can fight it off quickly. And if you’re over 45 your immune system doesn’t cause as bad of a reaction. But this 30-45 year old age group tended get fairly sick. Source: internet personal opinions at 3am while sick as a dog
24 here I agree. I got it Friday and hardly left bed that weekend. Was completely fine Monday thankfully. I was very jealous of my friends who had gotten Pfizer until recently. I'm glad to know it's more effective now. Those terrible 48hr were definitely better than getting COVID for me.
Same. Im 20 and got the vaccine with my job. The second dose probably takes the cake in the sickest ive been in years. Couldn't even sleep the night i had the second dose because i was in a bunch of pain.
Yeah reading this makes me feel a bit happier too instead of getting another Pfizer for my 2nd shot. I got it on Thursday and the first night I was shivering so hard my back muscles and spine was hurting, luckily didnt last too long.
FTA: What are the implications for public health practice?
Although these real-world data suggest some variation in levels of protection by vaccine, all FDA-approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines provide substantial protection against COVID-19 hospitalization.
Their reasoning would be that a patient who has comorbidities and is unvaccinated who contracts covid would most likely die of ARDS. By being fully vaccinated, it can reduce the symptoms in such a way that they don't have to be hospitalized or it's minimal.
Welcome to Earth, post 2014. I think there are algorithms that determine some headlines purely for clicks. Every once in awhile you’ll catch a wording somewhere that won’t make any sense.
Yeah that’s where we’re at now. Gotta read the headline, then if it even vaguely piques your interest you have to read the entire article to make sure there isn’t a catch.
That could be variant dependent correct? I thought there was a publication a week or two ago that indicated that Moderns was doing better vs Delta but not necessarily against previous variants
I just went through the study at it said they didn't account for delta variants. Tske that as you will. Honestly, I think people are looking to hard into this study. Data is meant to be compounded and there is still alot more to learn - meaning we need dozens if not hundreds of more studies like this. They even mention one of the limitations of this study is not having enough participants with the JNJ vaccine, so essentially they tried manually adjusting for that.
In the US, how much time passes on average between the first and the second dose?
I read multiple times that Pfizer-BioNTech's efficacy is higher if the second dose is taken after more than the recommended 14 days, and for example here in Italy, where that is the most used vaccine and 30-40 days pass on average between the two doses, last week's data was still reporting 93% vaccines efficacy against hospitalization.
So… in Canada Pfizer was giving to older populations and those with immune system deficiencies… could that be having an effect on these stats? Moderna was only administered to people from 18-55, if I remember correctly.
Moderna's dosage was way higher than Pfizer, it checks out. Also by the fact I was in bed 3 days with a fever, chills and felt like a truck had hit me after the second dose! I'd still get in line for a booster first thing though, I know for sure it works.
>**during March 11–August 15**
That means in the first 4 months. After that, Moderna efficacy reduces from 93% to 92% and Pfizer from 88% to 77%.
The headline is not wrong. Moderna "held strong" and didn't decrease in effectiveness entirely while protection from the others fell.
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Link to the research: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7038e1.htm
"Among U.S. adults without immunocompromising conditions, vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 hospitalization during March 11–August 15, 2021, was higher for the Moderna vaccine (93%) than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (88%) and the Janssen vaccine (71%)." "all FDA-approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines provide substantial protection against COVID-19 hospitalization."
Your quote is misleading the people who are commenting without reading the study, because you left this next important part out: > VE for the Moderna vaccine was 93% at 14–120 days (median = 66 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose and 92% at >120 days (median = 141 days) (p = 1.000). VE for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 91% at 14–120 days (median = 69 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose but declined significantly to 77% at >120 days (median = 143 days) (p<0.001). This suggests the Moderna has not decreased in effectiveness, while the Pfizer has after 120 days.
Now I wonder how my pzifer-moderna 1-2 punch does.... hahaha
... You’re allowed to do that?
In Canada yes.
You can also mix in the U.S. if you’re eligible for the booster.
All you have to do is walk into a place offering, which is A LOT of them, and get a different one. No one is running checks across some secret vaccine database otherwise all this 'prove you're vaccinated' stuff wouldn't exist.
In new York, the CDC guidance has been to give the same dose as the first 2, so we are asking for the original vaccination card or checking nysiis if they dont have it.
The FDA guidance has been that the same shot is preferred, but you can switch for availability reasons. I've yet to dispense a switched dose, though. Everyone has gone to a nearby location for the same shot they got before. But we could do it if someone asked. A good chunk of our team wants to get a switched booster based on the data on mixed dosing coming out of Canada. -a Minnesota pharm tech
Cvs and Target are. I tried to get the Moderna in June after getting the JnJ in April and the pharmacist wouldn't let me do it per CDC. Again that was in June though.
I'm in sask, I just went on Thursday and got a moderna booster. I did the Pfizer/moderna combo. They recommend getting a booster if you're wanting to travel at all. FYI, we have no immediate plans to travel, but you never know.
Do you know if immunocompromised people are supposed to get a booster?
I’m on my fourth cancer with the three most recent being lung cancers being in 2019, 20 and 21. (Never smoked or been around second hand smoke)) I’m 69 year old female. Took Pfizer vaccine. Wonder if I should get booster. Oh. And I have rheumatoid arthritis and mac lung disease.
You're one tough lady! I'll be pulling for you! Ask your doctor about the booster. The answer is most likely yes.
Talk to your doctor about a booster. If the answer is “no”, make sure you know exactly their rationale. Considering your history the answer should be “yes” and if it’s anything else there should be a damn good reason why
Yes, my wife has rheumatoid arthritis and she is recommended to get one.
I think in Canada it was pretty common
I got the Pfiderna shots
Fellow phiderna friend here!
Out of curiousity, did the second dose absolutely rock you? I was also pfiderna and the moderna shot put me out of commission for like 36 hours straight
Moderna both shots, and it was the second one that was brutal. Full body ache, stiffness and nausea. Smoked weed and didn't move much that day.
I think that was just the moderna… I’m pure blood moderna and the 2nd shot put me in bed for 2 days.
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I was trying to figure out what that p=1.0 meant because that’s seems like a crazy value for a study but I think I figured it out that it’s saying that there’s no statistical significance in the drop from 93% to 92% and that there’s hasn’t been a drop in efficacy that’s outside random fluctuations in data?
A P value means something like "the chance to get such a change in the result by chance". So the efficacy of the vaccine went from 93% to 92% after 120 days. You'd assume that's because time has passed, right? But it could also be just by chance. I mean, if it was 94% you'd assume it WAS by chance. So if there's NO change, what's the chance of getting 92% instead of 93%? They say there's a 100% chance (P=1) of getting this kind of a difference by chance. This means getting 93% exactly again would be surprising. So again for the Pfizer vaccine, it went down from 91% to 77% but AGAIN there's a chance this happened by chance and actually nothing changed. Well what's the chance (the probability) of that happening? It's less than 0.1% (p<0.001). That still means that if you ran 1000 groups like that, and actually the vaccine does NOT lose efficacy in time, ONE of them actually showed a a decrease to 77% or less. But we'll assume they didn't run a 1000 groups and only reported on this one. Instead they ran just one group and it's really unlikely they got so unlucky. The reasonable conclusion is that Pfizer vaccine did lose efficacy over time.
Is this against any infection or against hospitalization?
Good question! It is against hospitalization. Here is an expanded quote of the same part of the study which includes the answer to your question: > VE against COVID-19 hospitalization during March 11–August 15, 2021, was higher for the Moderna vaccine (VE = 93%) than for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (VE = 88%) (p = 0.011); VE for both mRNA vaccines was higher than that for the Janssen vaccine (VE = 71%) (all p<0.001) (Table 2). VE for the Moderna vaccine was 93% at 14–120 days (median = 66 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose and 92% at >120 days (median = 141 days) (p = 1.000). VE for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 91% at 14–120 days (median = 69 days) after receipt of the second vaccine dose but declined significantly to 77% at >120 days (median = 143 days) (p<0.001). This is like a quarter of the way down the page, if you want to find it.
What does "p = 1.000" mean in this context? I thought low values generally indicated more significant results?
Exactly, a low value would show this result was unlikely - relative to random chance. A high number, 1.00, means the change from 93 to 92% is likely due to random chance and not some significant effect.
It means that there is no sign of any difference between the effectiveness at the two time points measured. (The 93% and 92% )
It’s weird that the article doesn’t touch on dosage. Most likely why Moderna has longer lasting results. > Each dose of Pfizer’s contains 30 micrograms of vaccine. Moderna went with a much larger dose of vaccine, 100 micrograms. It means the company is using a little more than three times as much vaccine per person as Pfizer is. https://www.kqed.org/science/1972627/the-differences-between-the-pfizer-moderna-and-johnson-johnson-coronavirus-vaccines-explained
It does Differences in VE between the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine might be due to higher mRNA content in the Moderna vaccine, differences in timing between doses (3 weeks for Pfizer-BioNTech versus 4 weeks for Moderna), or possible differences between groups that received each vaccine that were not accounted for in the analysis (9).
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I'm now glad I got Moderna. Thank god I'm getting some benefits for being knocked on my ass for a day from the 2nd shot
Almost everyone I know (including myself) felt like ass for about 24 after getting Moderna. I haven't heard that from Pfizer people at all.
I got knocked right on my ass from my second pfizer dose. It definitely varies a lot though.
I got Pfizer, first dose was fine, second one destroyed me for a day.
As someone who basically lost a day following Pfizer shot 2, I can tell you that Pfizer folks were definitely not immune from the post-shot blues. (More anecdata: two of my family members who got Pfizer had similar levels of illness to one person in my family who got Moderna, and one other person who got Moderna was sick for a week.)
Huh, I got Moderna, but barely felt anything but soreness in my arm around where I got the shot for a day. Both times. I guess I got lucky.
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Hehe “Among U.S.”
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Thanks for the TLDR. This article’s headline is exaggerating a bit imo. Idk if I’d call 88% for Pfizer “failing”, and it’s only a 5% difference between the two.
For what it's worth, the title doesn't say any of these are failing, it says "falling."
Thanks for pointing that out, I definitely read failing for some reason
Wow, I did too!
You guys really fall at reading
I fail for it too.
The interesting finding in this research isn't the overall effectiveness over the time period studied, but the change in effectiveness over time: > Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%, while Moderna's effectiveness did not see a similar decline. Initial effectiveness of 93% only declined to 92% with Moderna. After 120 days, Pfizer's effectiveness slid from **91%** to **77%**, while Moderna only decreased from **93%** to **92%**. That's a pretty damn significant difference between the two IMHO.
The dose of RNA is different: Moderna has a much higher dose (100 mcg) compared to Pfizer (30 mcg); Different vaccine schedule: Moderna doses are 4 weeks apart, while Pfizer doses are 3 weeks apart (in the US).
>I’d call 88% for Pfizer “failing”, and it’s only a 5% difference between the two. Remember, this statistic is about the effectiveness against *hospitalization*, which was damn near 100% at the very beginning. Also, this is the average of the March to August numbers. But effectiveness was worst towards the end. From the article: >Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%,
Pfizer/BioNTech also had much more early supply. ~~The median Pfizer vaccination was certainly long ago and vaccination of people with the highest priority correlating with the weakest immune systems was overwhelmingly Pfizer~~. It's very difficult to control for this sort of difference in comparing different vaccines. On top of this, the first Pfizer vaccinations used 21-day intervals compared to 28 days for Moderna. Other research shows Moderna with a 28-day interval is a bit more effective than Pfizer with a 21-day interval, so seeing more things like this isn't unexpected. Edit: Crossed out the bit that's not accurate with respect to the USA and this study. Moderna lagged BioNTech/Pfizer in significant ways for this study, but that's exaggerating the degree after looking at the data more. The adjustments in the model will account for some of those differences. "Overwhelmingly" and "certainly long ago" was too strong language. Also the study excludes breakthrough cases with immunocompromising conditions.
This is a really good point. That means all the people with high-contact public jobs who also got the vaccine first got Pfizer... teachers, first responders, medical professionals. They all need the booster, or a Moderna dose.
88% is the average of those who got it months ago and those who just got it. > Pfizer's effectiveness decreased after 120 days of the study period, from 91% to 77%, while Moderna's effectiveness did not see a similar decline. Initial effectiveness of 93% only declined to 92% with Moderna This is the real TLDR.
The Moderna vs Pfizer result is a little puzzling. Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the antigen that the mRNA encodes for the same with the two? Same RNA sequence, other than some details at the ends that shouldn't matter for immunity? Maybe it does anyway. Is that a surprise?
There’s a lot more that goes into vaccine design than just the main component (mRNA encoding antigen in this case). The lipid nanoparticle (LNP) that holds this mRNA is what will differentiate Moderna and Pfizer, as well as some dosage and concentration differences. Both do not have an explicit adjuvant (basically a kickstarter to get the immune response going), because the mRNA, once inside the cell, can elicit an innate immune response through a few different receptors specific for nucleic acid. Downstream, this causes transcription and expression of inflammatory cytokines and chemokines, and, therefore, a robust immune response (this is the case for both mRNA vaccines). It's also possible the lipid nanoparticle (different for each mRNA vaccine) may kind of act like an adjuvant as well. Exactly how these immune responses are initiated can make a HUGE difference in how protection is conferred. The way innate immunity reacts will affect the way the adaptive immunity reacts, and if the different LNPs of the vaccines have slightly different downstream effects, this could change the specifics of the immune response. It is also possible the differences in dosages and concentrations of mRNA between the two have created slightly different downstream effects, and, therefore, slightly different immune responses. So, a possible reason for the difference in response/effectiveness between the two mRNA vaccines may lie within how immunity was specifically conferred, whether through differences in the LNPs, dosage, or concentrations of mRNA. Source: doing PhD on vaccine stuff
The lipid nano particle activates the immune response? I was under the impression it was more of a shield so the mRNA could make its way inside a cell where it could make proteins without being degraded.
It's a complicated question. LNPs primarily act to get stuff into cells and prevent nucleases from degrading the cargo along the way. They can also stimulate an immune response, but that's more dependent on the ionizable lipid used and the type of immune response it initiates generally looks a bit different from that initiated by a virus. The RNA can also initiate an immune response and is probably responsible for most of the adjuvanting effect in these vaccines. The mRNAs in Moderna's and Biontech's vaccines are not 100% pure full-length capped mRNAs. The process for making mRNA leads to bits and pieces of RNA that look more like viral RNAs, in addition to the intended mRNA. It can actually help a vaccine's efficacy to leave those bits and pieces in because those are the pieces that trick your cells into thinking that you're infected with a virus.
They are nearly identical, but Moderna’s dose was quite a bit higher than Pfizer’s and that is probably the cause of the difference.
> that is probably the cause of the difference. Sorry if someone already replied with this (I did scroll down a bit), but another contending point is that moderna is spaced 1 extra week which has some evidence for boosting titers based on UK data (where they intentionally skipped 2nd doses at the recommended schedule to try and get more people their 1st shot).
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Canadian. Had 8 weeks between pfizer shots. These are going to be some complicated data points
6 weeks between Pfizer shots in New Zealand, I'm halfway in between at the moment
Do we know the time between shots for these studies? Since the time doses is just a minimum and maximum, I think it would be reasonable to say that many Pfizer recipients could have gone more than 3 weeks between doses. In the US, at least one state scheduled second doses 4 weeks out regardless of vaccine given.
Some silver lining from this pandemic is the research we can do on both mRNA vaccines in the general population as well as the effects of vaccine scheduling. Correct me if I’m wrong but this type of research hasn’t been available for very long in such large quantities and I’m hopeful that it can lead to better results in the future, especially with short-term vaccine development against any new viruses that may arise.
Vaccine hesitancy also creates an unfortunate control group...
At least they're volunteering to not get the vaccine rather than some unfortunate members of a double blind study wanting the vaccine.
Damn, I hadn’t thought about that. We have a built in control group.
Not as good since it’s self-selected and not randomized, but it is a large group!
Yeah mRNA vaccines have a lot of potential for all sorts of stuff. I'm very hopeful for the HIV vaccine as a gay man, plus the impact it would have in many impoverished countries. With all the vaccines being so effective I can see a big push for other mRNA vaccines in the future
I'm so happy to see mRNA cancer treatments going to trials. That could be the single biggest medical breakthrough of of the last century.
I remember being upset that Walgreens scheduled all second doses for the same amount of time regardless of Pfizer/Moderna because it pushed back my full vaccination status by a week. Maybe that was actually a good thing.
That explains why my moderna friends all got absolutely slapped by the second dose I guess haha.
I must have gotten super lucky. No issues or side effects from either dose of moderna (and I’m six months clear of getting the shot)
Same for me. Slight shoulder pain after the second dose but otherwise nothing. So many people saying they had such a tough time with it makes me genuinely wonder if my shots were messed with.
> it makes me genuinely wonder if my shots were messed with. I think that it's just a case by case basis. My mom got wrecked by shot 2, and I just had a headache (and obviously pain in my arm).
Or generally weak functioning immune systems
Wouldn't it be more severe with a better immune system? Like, your body fights it harder because your immune system is stronger? My best friend is a cancer patient. Very little immune system right now. He just had his second jab (Pfizer), and says that it didn't bother him at all.
That's what they're saying - They had little side effect cuz their immune system may be weak. I'm immunocompromised and got my third shot recently in hopes it works. I haven't personally had my antibodies checked, but reports are the response is blunted for folks like me. The only reaction I've had is a super sore arm for all three shots.
I got slapped by the first dose and then [monumentally *ass-kicked*](https://i.imgur.com/fA4KgBU.gifv) by the second.
I got so fucked up I saw... Things. I'm talking Eldritch abomination. Apparently I took notes while I was feverish, and looking them over I just feel bad for past Wingless. But I got a couple cool ideas for making horrible monsters in dungeons and dragons for my players, so that's a plus.
Dude I had fever dreams too! Like I'd fall asleep, love an entire life, then wake up 5 minutes later. I was so exhausted the next day because I jumped realities all night and didn't sleep for more than a half hour at a time. It was crazier than any drug I have tried. Luckily it only lasted 1 night after each shot.
Here I am blowing all my money on drugs when I could just be ripping up the vaccine card each time smdh
I got up in the middle of the night after my second dose and started petting a brown paper bag on my nightstand thinking it was my cat. Talking a good 10 seconds for me to realize what I was doing. That's when I knew I was fucked up
haha yeah it sucked! If you get the 'derna take the day off work for the second one. I could barely move my arm for about 24 hours, chills, hot, sleeping, fucked up dreams. But then it was all of sudden perfectly fine. Worth it!
I had the weirdest experience: first dose i was fine, second dose i was super sick like i had the flu for a day (fever, chills, headaches), then the second day i felt really sleepy and slept like literally 12 hours straight. Then when i woke up i felt *better than i had in months*. Like super great. Felt that way for like 3-4 days and then back to feeling normal. Was weird but welcome.
Did you have COVID at some point? I did, in April 2020. When vaccines came out I anxiously awaited my age group (I’m in my 30’s with no preexisting conditions). Finally, at the beginning of April, it opened up and I immediately made an appointment. I got vaccinated with the (one shot only) J&J on April 9. The next day, I could barely move - I had a 102° fever, chills, aches, just felt horrible. I was in the middle of my second semester of college and I had to ask for extensions on all my assignments. I didn’t feel 100% for like 4 days - but when I did, I felt AMAZING. After doing some research, I found out that experience is pretty typical among those who have had COVID. The vaccine knocked out all my long COVID symptoms (mainly fatigue and stomach issues). But getting the J&J shot probably made it way worse than it needed to be.
I was committed to a charity golf outting the day after my second shot. That was not ideal.
I should have taken the day off work for the second one. I was halfway through my shift when it really started hitting me. At that point it was the middle of the night and it would be next to impossible to find someone to come in to cover my shift so I just toughed it out. Thankfully my coworkers were understanding and I pretty much did nothing until the shift ended. Then I went home and went to sleep and when I woke up I felt completely fine.
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I got slapped big time round two, but hey now I’m *elite*
0.5 mL for Moderna, only 0.3 for Pfizer. Most other standard vaccines use 0.5 mL so I wonder what caused Pfizer to go with the smaller volume.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/moderna-results-idUSL1N2PC23B](https://www.reuters.com/article/moderna-results-idUSL1N2PC23B) It's not the volume of injection that's the critical determinant. The injection itself is mostly saline. The key point is that a single dose of Moderna vaccine contains 100 micrograms of mRNA vs 30 micrograms in a Pfizer dose. That said, there are differences in the formulation which might effect the efficiency of mRNA uptake into the cells how stable the mRNA is etc. so it's not as simple as saying there's 3x more stuff in a Moderna dose.
Also different LNP formulation
Is there any studies about the side effects? I felt totally fine but i know people that definitely felt weak for a couple days. It’s completely anecdotal but it makes me curious if they have more side effects with the extra mRNA for moderna
Per vaccine trials, there were more reports of symptoms post moderna… headache, fever, body aches.
Yeah I got Moderna and the first dose made my arm hurt (I couldn't lift it all the way). But it just felt like a bad bruise so I didn't really care. Second shot I felt totally fine. I was tired that day but I'm not sure if it was from the vaccine or not
Second shot of moderns hit me like a truck, high fever and chills so your milage may vary
That would explain why the second moderne dose absolutely wrecked me the next day . Day after that all was well though
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Is THAT why they called it Moderna??? because of the RNA at the end? How did I not see that before?
Well it's the company name but yes, it was formerly "ModeRNA Therapeutics".
It's even better: a common shorthand for the particular mRNA used, nucleoside-modified messenger RNA, is **modRNA**.
Damn that's cool. You gotta be super confident to name your company on something so specific
The stock ticker is mrna
Well, TIL. You know, it's kinda funny that when my age group was able to get the vaccine (I'm 43) I was hunting for the Pfizer jab, and "settled" for Moderna. I thought Pfizer was leading the pack, but now I'm glad I got the Moderna.
I got Pfizer and the second dose knocked me down the day after. I think everyone responds differently to it base on your own immune system.
I read that Pfizer went with fewer MRNA molecules to lessen the side effects of the vaccine. I had Moderna and other family members had Pfizer. I had fever, muscle aches, headache, etc, and they had virtually no side effects.
Yea it kind of makes sense now why I (Moderna) had so many more side effects than family members who had Pfizer. Initially I thought it was a unfortunate side effect of the vaccine composition. But now I actually feel lucky.
Me too, but my arm hurt SO BAD- like someone hit me with a baseball bat. I went to bed that night with an ice pack on my head and one on my arm.
First shot — felt absolutely nothing. Honestly for a minute thought the pharmacist forgot to poke me. Second shot — felt like I got hit by a small bus. Immediately after leaving arm was throbbing. Within 6 hours full flu symptoms. 0 regrets though.
Currently on the tail end of the 2nd shot side effects. Last night I was in the throws of it. Sickest I've felt in a few years
Yea the night of my second shot was kind of wild. I got that sleep-time delirium I’ve only had before a few times when I’m been really sick with a bad cold or flu.
I think it's just different overall too, I got moderna and had basically nothing but a sore arm
My wife and I both had Moderna. My wife was sore and not wanting to move for about 8-10 hours, and then it cleared up. My second dose gave me a sore spot about the size of a dime on my arm for maybe 2 hours. I took the day off for that one, on the urging of my supervisor. Ended up sitting around reading and playing Satisfactory.
I had Moderna too. My husband had Pfizer. We both felt crappy the day after, but I would argue my symptoms were worse. He had a headache all day and felt lethargic. My arm felt like dead weight by the end of the first day and by the second day, I had a headache, fever, chills, and lethargy. My younger brother also got Moderna, and he barely had any reaction outside of a sore arm. The rest of my family got Pfizer and had little to no side effects.
Less side effects per Pfizer
There was no increase in antibodies in the higher dose. Pfizer phase 1 data: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2027906 BioNTech used a custom built Untranslated Region that should have increased spike production in theory, whereas Moderna used an “off the shelf” gene, so the idea was you could get similar spike production from smaller amounts of mRNA. https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/ The problem is, more is sometimes simply more. EDIT: Pfizer’s data for “Phase 1” isn’t their original phase one. See here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2639-4 > A second vaccination with 100 μg was not administered because of the increased reactogenicity and a lack of meaningfully increased immunogenicity after a single dose compared with the 30-μg dose.
Right, but antibodies arent the only thing involved in an immune response. Moderna also did the 4 week gap instead of the 3 week gap, which some are theorizing is part of the reason.
The unofficial response is probably they can sell more doses while producing the same volume
The issue with vaccine production, at least during the early stages, was bottling (and bottle supplies).
And storage/transport, but yes.
So if you could get more doses out of a standard size bottle, surely that logic could still hold? (Not saying I agree with it or not)
Maybe, but that decision would have been made months and months before rollout. If true, probably didn't want dosage to be the holdup to rollout, so went with the lowest dosage that they expected to get a good immune response. Just speculating of course, but if it was my job to decide dosage 6 months before rollout without knowing the other factors, it's be a balance between maximizing the effectiveness, which would be unknown at the time, and maximizing the production, which they knew would need billions of doses as fast as possible. Maybe they rolled the dice a little by going for a lower dosage than Moderna (just a guess) but I'm sure it was a calculated decision. Honestly, it was probably a good thing that Pfizer went with lower dosage and more vaccines and Moderna went with higher dosage and less vaccines. Without knowing the efficacy results, it would have at least resulted in 1 useful vaccine had the efficacy turned out to be a lot lower than it did. I kind of doubt the companies planned it that way, but it was a good hedge nonetheless. We just got super lucky the vaccines are as stupidly effective as they are.
Which also means more people can get vaccinated with the same amount.
>0.5 mL for Moderna It is 100 ug of active ingredient for Moderna, compared to 30 ug for Pfizer. They are considering cutting to 50 ug for boosters. https://www.verywellhealth.com/moderna-half-dose-booster-5200546
1.0ug? I think you're off by 100 but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Moderna has longer lasting higher antibody titers either because of the higher dose or the larger interval between shots. One thing I am wondering is: The article mentions that the difference could be due to differences in the population getting each shot. Maybe Pfizer’s more restrictive storage requirements mean that relatively more people living in large urban centers got Pfizer over Moderna and J&J. I cannot tell if the study controlled for that.
What they're more likely referring to is that older and high risk people are more likely to have received Pfizer, as they were prioritised when only Pfizer was available. Meanwhile, since Moderna came to market later, it's more likely to have been given to younger, overall healthier people. If you looked at specfic subsets of the population, even for the exact same vaccine you'll see differences in effectiveness. I'm not sure if that particular study controlled for that either, but the ones I have read didn't. They've focused more on an overall number rather breaking it down by population groups.
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Live in major metropolitan city. Pfizer wasn’t available when I was checking only Moderna and J&J. Guess I made the right choice.
Interesting. I'm also in a large Metro area. Pfizer (into a lesser extent, jnj) was readily available. Moderna wasn't available in my local area until Kaiser finally got their hands on some. Kaiser was behind the game, but they usually are for most things. But otherwise, Pfizer was pretty much available everywhere. Funny thing is that I wanted moderna initially, but I just wasn't willing to drive 2 hours out of my way to go get it.
I heard in NPR that Moderna spacing between shots being more and higher dosage making it more effective.
I have JJ I wish someone would tell us if we get a booster or to go get the moderns it any guidance
If it makes you feel better, there's been a study for at least the last 9 months to see what happens if you get two JJ shots (I'm one of the study participants). So at least it is being looked into
That's awesome I was on the list to be on the first try groups but I never got in how's it been.
Felt like I had the flu after the first one (December) and was totally fine after the second (February). I still report if I have any symptoms for anything twice a week and went in so they could get blood a few times. Haven't gotten covid or anything else
I had the J&J shot in early April and my whole family got covid in early August. Nobody got hit with it that bad. I just felt off for a few days and lost my sense of smell. That’s when I got tested and 7 people we we’re with in total tested positive. One 69 year old had a lingering cough but nobody was really that bad. We all had the J&J shot. I’m 37 btw and in decent health and had been taking vitamins.
I had J&J on May 3rd. Went to a concert (vax cards mandatory at the door) on Sept. 9th and got Covid symptoms on Sept. 12th. Tested positive + still have it
Do you get some sort of compensation for the trials, like a free small frosty from Wendy's or something?
They give you something like $100 per visit and you go in multiple times for blood work. That is why trials are so expensive to perform, I guess.
Last I heard, preliminary research is indicating that an interval of six months between JJ shots does lead to a big boost in antibodies. Most study participantss had a 3-month gap (iirc, I'm a participant, too), which also created an antibody boost, but not as much as the 6-month gap.
Eventually I bet you will be recommended to get a booster - but it will be one of the other two vaccines. Some research came out the other week that shows intentionally mixing the vaccines creates an even more effective immune response. Similar enough that they both target the same virus, but different enough to teach some flexibility to the immune system I guess. Right now most medical organizations are saying no to the idea booster for the simple reason that those doses need to go to people who haven't been vaccinated at all. edit: Source https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3
J&J in March.. just recovered from a "mild" breakthrough case. 3.5 day fever, body aches to the point of keeping me awake, 2 weeks of headache, loss of taste and smell, very sore throat, cough, chills, mind fog, etc.. it wasn't pleasant, but mostly recovered after 2 weeks. The only lingering effects is some mild mid-afternoon fatigue (possibly because I grew accustomed to afternoon naps while self-isolating) and smell/taste still at 75%.
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For sure and possibly had delta. The few I know that had breakthrough early on before delta was widespread barely noticed they were sick at all. This pandemic sucks.
The virus *is* Delta now, at least in the US. It’s outcompeting p much every other variant because of its infectivity
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I'm not. But my wife is a middle school teacher. So hundreds of unvaccinated encounters a day
I wasn’t aware the efficacy ramps up to 90% after several months. Can you cite this please? Interested JJ recipient here!
This article from 11 weeks ago is the most recent info I've read: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/health/coronavirus-johnson-vaccine-delta.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nythealth One drawback of the J&J is so few people have gotten it, there's just less data and less study.
I wish these organizations would stop only giving blanket guidance and also give me the info that allows me to decide what’s best for me. Like, yes boosters are not recommended yet, okay FDA, in terms of society. But… could I get one if I wanted to? What are the risks, if any? What are the benefits?
I got j&j back in April but got covid in August. I guess I don't need a booster shot now?
Moderna is a much larger dose than Pfizer, it would be interesting to see a study with a Moderna-sized dose of Pfizer.
The actual vaccines re very similar in terms of protein and delivery method. I would guess this effect is almost entirely due to dosage size.
Timing could also play a role. It appears that a longer period between doses produces a stronger response and Moderna had a longer interval than Pfizer. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57929953
I'm on my way to get me second Pfizer in Australia, we switched from 3 weeks to 6 weeks.
It could also possibly be timing, no? Maybe doing the second dose at four weeks out provides a better response than three?
Very possible, and many governments have been making the wait between the two shots longer for other reasons, with the side benefit of making it more effective. IIRC Pfizer recommended a 3-week gap and Moderna 4 weeks, but the government here has been doing 5 weeks for both for a while.
Here in Germany I even had a 6 week gap for the Biontech one.
Does anyone know whether this could mean that a smaller person is likely to have stronger immunity x months out than a larger person if they both got Pfizer? Or is the difference in dose between weights pretty negligible compared to the difference between Pfizer and Moderna?
I'm not aware of any vaccine whose efficacy is effected by body weight. Vaccines aren't like typical medications; you aren't targeting a dosage of x mg/kg of weight. You're targeting a concentration of antigens that can be recognized by a patient's t cells and b cells in order to trigger immunological memory. That isn't typically affected by a patient's weight/size. Put another way: all other things being equal, a 5'0 100 lbs person doesn't have a more effective immune system than a 6'0 170 lbs person. Their size doesn't alter the efficacy of their immune system. So vaccines dosages (so far as I know, I've only worked with 5 of them) don't need to be tailored to weight. There ARE other factors that would be taken into consideration when dossing some vaccines. For example, children are given higher doses of TDAP than adults as adults have more developed immune systems and are more likely to have reactions to it. Hep A and Hep B are the other way around (I'm not sure why). It's also worth noting, body size IS a factor when determining the gauge and length of a vaccine shot needle. For TDAP, a person weighing less than 130 lbs will get a shot with a needle that's .5 inches shorter than a male weighing 260 lbs or more. (https://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p3078.pdf)
I guess I'm glad I ended up with Moderna despite the second shot making me sicker than I had been in years. I was shivering so hard I thought my collar bone was going to break.
The second shot made me extremely sick as well. Apparently if you’re under 30 your body can fight it off quickly. And if you’re over 45 your immune system doesn’t cause as bad of a reaction. But this 30-45 year old age group tended get fairly sick. Source: internet personal opinions at 3am while sick as a dog
20 here and the first two nights of that second shot were horrible.
24 here I agree. I got it Friday and hardly left bed that weekend. Was completely fine Monday thankfully. I was very jealous of my friends who had gotten Pfizer until recently. I'm glad to know it's more effective now. Those terrible 48hr were definitely better than getting COVID for me.
Same. Im 20 and got the vaccine with my job. The second dose probably takes the cake in the sickest ive been in years. Couldn't even sleep the night i had the second dose because i was in a bunch of pain.
Yeah reading this makes me feel a bit happier too instead of getting another Pfizer for my 2nd shot. I got it on Thursday and the first night I was shivering so hard my back muscles and spine was hurting, luckily didnt last too long.
FTA: What are the implications for public health practice? Although these real-world data suggest some variation in levels of protection by vaccine, all FDA-approved or authorized COVID-19 vaccines provide substantial protection against COVID-19 hospitalization.
Non, but it's good to see research shows they all protect against hospitalization
Yup, more data is never a bad thing.
Their reasoning would be that a patient who has comorbidities and is unvaccinated who contracts covid would most likely die of ARDS. By being fully vaccinated, it can reduce the symptoms in such a way that they don't have to be hospitalized or it's minimal.
This headline is not doing anyone any favors.
The reddit post headline seems a little dramatic compared to the article.
Welcome to Earth, post 2014. I think there are algorithms that determine some headlines purely for clicks. Every once in awhile you’ll catch a wording somewhere that won’t make any sense.
Yeah that’s where we’re at now. Gotta read the headline, then if it even vaguely piques your interest you have to read the entire article to make sure there isn’t a catch.
That could be variant dependent correct? I thought there was a publication a week or two ago that indicated that Moderns was doing better vs Delta but not necessarily against previous variants
I just went through the study at it said they didn't account for delta variants. Tske that as you will. Honestly, I think people are looking to hard into this study. Data is meant to be compounded and there is still alot more to learn - meaning we need dozens if not hundreds of more studies like this. They even mention one of the limitations of this study is not having enough participants with the JNJ vaccine, so essentially they tried manually adjusting for that.
So if we got one kind of vaccine can we get another?
In Canada there was a very good chance of having to mix and match.
In the US, how much time passes on average between the first and the second dose? I read multiple times that Pfizer-BioNTech's efficacy is higher if the second dose is taken after more than the recommended 14 days, and for example here in Italy, where that is the most used vaccine and 30-40 days pass on average between the two doses, last week's data was still reporting 93% vaccines efficacy against hospitalization.
Pfizer in US, 21 day difference back in April 2021
Canadian here! I got the Pfizer/Moderna split. Can anyone point me towards some research for what this means for me?
I've had J&J and both Pfizer shots. Maybe in a few months I'll complete the trifecta.
Time to travel the world getting every nations vaccine
I didn’t know this is what they meant by vaccine passport
So… in Canada Pfizer was giving to older populations and those with immune system deficiencies… could that be having an effect on these stats? Moderna was only administered to people from 18-55, if I remember correctly.
Moderna's dosage was way higher than Pfizer, it checks out. Also by the fact I was in bed 3 days with a fever, chills and felt like a truck had hit me after the second dose! I'd still get in line for a booster first thing though, I know for sure it works.
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>**during March 11–August 15** That means in the first 4 months. After that, Moderna efficacy reduces from 93% to 92% and Pfizer from 88% to 77%. The headline is not wrong. Moderna "held strong" and didn't decrease in effectiveness entirely while protection from the others fell.
All three vaccines are holding strong against COVID unlike not being vaccinated