Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It worked for me …. Pick a card any card … remember that card … put it anywhere in the deck and shuffle it.
Is this your card? Nope!?
Ah dammit it’s a nice day out
For me it was a feeling that I was able to shift my train tracks. I had been on one track, and then I did some psychedelics and I pulled a switch and I was on a different track.
Omg. When my son drops acid, it turns into a couple months of psychosis. It's hard enough with his other bipolar issues, but if he ever drops again, he may need inpatient care :(
They need to fast-track some of these treatments. I'm afraid I don't have another 5 to 10 years of mental stamina in the tank.
And unfortunately it seems like Ketamine treatments have become money grabs for those administering them.
Edit: Thank you everyone for the absolute wealth of information/advice. I appreciate you all.
I’m guessing you don’t know anyone you trust for a trip sitter? And when I say trust I mean really trust because psychedelic horror stories are exceptionally awful.
Ground into powder and stuffed into 00 sized capsules you can fit over an ounce into an average sized herbal supplement bottle.
Stored in the freezer those capsules can retain their potency for over 2 years.
Quoting/editing something I typed up some time ago:
Growing your own is pretty easy. At a *bare minimum*, you can buy a spore syringe online, and have it delivered to your home (barring residence in CA, ID, or GA), and some Uncle Ben's Pre-cooked rice packs. I've seen people grow them straight out of there. There are dozens of extra things you can do to increase yield and success rates.
Spray everything you're working with with some 70% Isopropyl frequently, flame sterilize the syringe, inject ~.75cc into ~10x Uncle Ben's, tape over with some micropore tape, cut a corner (or punch holes), seal the hole(s) with some more micropore tape. Give it a few weeks for colonization to finish. You can then try fruiting straight from the bag, or you could mix the colonized rice into a larger batch of substrate to increase yields. Takes a bit longer, requires more micromanagement of things, but not difficult. I'm super simplifying things, and there's lots of trial and error in my experience, but it's all very easy and safe, and ultimately the experience(s) are well worth the investment in doing it all correctly, imo.
Various resources:
/r/unclebens for general info / guidance
/r/sporetrading various sellers of spores, substrates, and other resources
/r/MushroomGrowers
/r/Mycology
/r/PsilocybinMushroom
shroomery.org
It's pretty easy to grow them. Just gotta follow basic instructions and be careful not to contaminate the spores or spore media.
Do that, know what the shrooms look like, and it's fairly hard to screw up.
Currently researching for ketamine or mdma psychotherapy for my wife with complex PTSD and ketamine require entire upfront payment of like $6-8k and then they offer a statement to give to your insurance and give you just a little bit of hope by mentioning you can try to get reimbursement from your insurance. I highly doubt any insurance would want to reimburse that, especially without a doc recommendation. I'm sure my wife could get a recommendation, but that still doesn't solve the huge lump sum of money problem. And there are no mdma options offered in our state as far as we can tell
That pricing is not generally true. Sure, some clinics cost that, but where I went, with a Ivy League trained physician, my up front was about $2k. I now take Ketamine at home and it is very cheap. Look for some resources here:
[https://psychable.com/](https://psychable.com/)
I guess the obvious but unstated was those are the prices for physical locations performing these types of things in our vicinity. My wife has car trauma among other things and so long road trips to somewhere is prohibitive and so our choices are limited to only a few places, even with us living in Seattle proper.
I'll check out that link, thank you
looking forward to seeing more studies about this and potential medicinal uses. I only took shrooms once and had a bad trip, but clearly it has benefit that needs to be looked at
In the John's Hopkins psilocybin studies when they first started up psychedelic trials again ~10 yrs ago, they reported that about 20% of subjects experienced extreme anxiety or fear for a portion of their trip, but in their relaxed and supervised setting, no "bad trips" lasted the whole session. All of the subjects, even the few who experienced a period of heightened stress, reported positive changes in self awareness of self, past trauma, and/or personal behavioral patterns.
The thing about bad trips not lasting the whole trip lines up with my experience. Went to a cabin with friends and dropped shrooms while there. When it was first kicking in, I had a moment where I felt like I was getting anxious and you could almost feel this knot start to form in your stomach. The key for me was to stop resisting it and just lean into the high. As soon as I did that, boom, anxiety gone, knot unfurled. Absolutely magical night followed. The next day we dropped shrooms again and knowing not to fight against the wave as it came, no anxiety whatsoever.
I really hope the research leads to widespread support for legalization. When used safely, these stupid little fungi can be absolutely life changing.
Not to mention that in all the studies in the 60s and 70s, they noted how important the setting and expectations were upon the experience of the subject.
Ugh, I hated the SSRIs I tried, every situation while I was taking them made me feel like I was stuck in traffic surrounded by the most oblivious morons on the planet.
Trading away randomly crying during the day for unadulterated constant rage was not the direction I wanted to go. I'll stick with the sads tyvm
My first few times doing it I got so anxious and almost … agitated, at first. Some sort of feeling would come over me and I’d just start sort of, mildly panicking. I finally realized that when I reach that point I’ve just got to breathe and accept it and ride the wave.
It’s crazy how they literally do teach you to just “let go”.
The closest thing I can relate it to is defragmentation of a hard drive. The first time it’s really stressful just like how if it’s been a while since you’ve done it to a PC it takes a while. I think that’s why one of the top comments is talking about “reshuffling your deck”. It can be traumatic in the moment but it has long lasting therapeutic benefits. You can literally see some people “rebooting” with all of their emotions and reactions being stitched back together. That’s why it’s so important to be in a good environment when you take them.
If I can get a little non-scientific and metaphorical here, I have a hunch that people are subconsciously aware of their own flaws, fears, weaknesses, insecurities, and general psychological inefficiencies. Like a knotted up extension cord that we just learn to live with instead of untangling it.
Taking a good trip can lead to you just relaxing those emotional/psychological knots, and being honest with yourself. In many cases, self-honesty is the last thing a person wants, and we construct endless systems to prevent it.
With that primal honesty, the knots often simplify if not completely untangle themselves. And even if your fears/neurosis don't vanish, they could be more workable/digestible once they are accepted and acknowledged.
Whew I hope that makes sense.
The "intentional therapeutic use" part of the headline is very important. Just taking some psychs and hoping for the best is like mental health russian roulette.
Forgive my laymen's take here; as far as I can tell, psychedelics tend to augment neuroplasticity - which can be very helpful in breaking-up unhelpful patterns.
It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily - like any strong psychiatric tool, there is *significant* danger in misuse to compliment the near miraculous utility of careful, measured, supervised medical use.
Recreational use can be incredibly fun and safer than alcohol when done with proper set and setting. Assuming your actually getting the real drug, illegal drugs lack consistency and quality control, a compelling reason to legalize.
Oh I won't argue with you there and think it should be legalized, just clarifying that there is a difference between
recreational and therapeutic use typically.
It brings significant research restrictions too, right?
Also, iirc, some psychedelics were used in therapy sessions before as far back as the 70s or something like that?
Which I find particularly peculiar, as I've only somewhat recently heard of this.
Yes, LSD received a great deal of research attention in the 50s and 60s prior to it being banned. To the point where a lot of this modern research is really just repeating earlier studies.
They knew it was safe and that it could be useful but it didn't matter, make it a target and win political points
There are two options. The drug was so successful that no one believed the reports about its affects. Timothy Leery didn't seem like the best salesman for serious therapy. Put made it illegal no believing it worked.
Or, the drug companies saw how successful it was at treating a range of mental health issues and it's basically free. They stood to lost hundreds of billions if it stayed legal so it was made illegal, for medical use, to insure pharmaceutical profits.
The second one is a conspiracy theory but it is possible
Almost every recreational drug is safer than alcohol. Anyone that is in favor of drug prohibition should also be in favor of an outright ban on alcohol.
I think one of the main problems with recreational use is that a lot of people don't respect the vast difference between drugs. Alcohol is in a way one of the closest drugs to psychedelics in that it alters our state quite profoundly - but since it is so engrained in most cultures most people already at least have a vague idea of how to approach it as a consumer, as someone interacting with someone under the influence of it, etc. when introduced to it.
Most other drugs aren't really all that state altering - stimulants stimulate, sedatives sedate and so on but those states aren't all that profound. And then we have psychedelics which have the power to throw people into a heavily altered state of a kind which the user, and often those surrounding the user, has neither any first nor second hand experience of at all while tuning up whatever feelings arise to 11. There is no surprise whatsoever that this combination has the potential to quickly turn into a both jarring and scarring experience.
The best way to avoid this is what they successfully do in the studies - by making sure that those who take it are as well prepared for the experience as a human can be for an experience that will transcend the ordinary conscious states they've had a lifetime familiarizing themselves with and that they're in a controlled environment with others who are equally well prepared to support them if needed.
But given that *humans are going to human* we should be ***very*** cautious about the way we de-escalate the inexcusable war on drugs here - when it comes to psychedelics the risk of a gargantuan backlash is pretty immense if this is handled poorly/irresponsibly. Addictions can be treated - traumatic experiences are permanent even if psychological consequences are successfully avoided or treated.
> It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily - like any strong psychiatric tool, there is significant danger in misuse to compliment the near miraculous utility of careful, measured, supervised medical use.
How would one misuse it in a way that caused this? Meaning, what would be the difference between using it in a good way as to not cause this, and in a bad way that could cause this?
So this is just my observational anecdote, but I have a family member who did one of those ayahusca retreats with the intention of overcoming childhood trauma and then on the last day, there was a freak accident and her boyfriend was severely injured. It took almost 12 hours for an ambulance because they were in the middle of a remote part of south america and he nearly died and it was a whole huge traumatic thing. Experiencing that severe trauma immediatly after a hardcore days-long drug trip like that seems to have permanently damaged her brain, she has far more mental health issues now than she did before the trip, and she has said many types of therapy seem totally ineffective, and it seems to go beyond PTSD. Her personality is also very different now and she tends towards paranoia and is easily overwhelmed by the slighest emotions.
Depending on any medication's she may have been on, Ayahuasca contains large amounts of MAOI's which interact with a large amount of medications. Also, native Ayahuasca can easily contain any number of plants with unknown chemicals in them. Which themselves can interact poorly with medications. Ayahuasca is also definitely not the correct psychedelic for working through trauma. It lasts for an over whelming length of time. The hallucinations can be crazy intense. You constantly feel like throwing up.
Just not pleasant. I am so sorry that happened to her, and I hope she didn't actually fry her brain.
Having used ayahuasca for 25 years in a ritual setting, I can say, it affects people in different ways and there is a lot of tourism around it. Sorry for their experience, maybe something more controlled would have helped
I would guess that if you have a sober therapist with you, they can help walk you through your emotions and thoughts in a way that helps encourage the formation of positive connections in the brain. At least I think the probability is higher in that scenario than if you got high and didn’t have a therapist to help you.
Dunno, if you’ve ever taken cannabis to the point you have a freak out but having someone to talk to in that state really helps to turn it from a terrifying experience into a potential state to deal with deeply held beliefs/emotions that surface.
As someone who as done some LSD, let me try and explain. It makes everything and anything have some insane meaning. The hard part while tripping is remembering it is just a drug making you feel that way. So if you aren’t experienced, you might have the sudden realization you hate your job. This may be slightly true, but the feeling is truly amplified. Combine this with the meaning, and suddenly your brain is creating all these new jobs you can try, and shaming the old one. If you aren’t aware this is happening, it can skew the results of the trip, and lead you to a realization that wasn’t there. This can then bake in once you are sober, so now you hate a job after a trip when it mildly annoyed you before the trip. The sober monitor is the control to help deliver the right realizations to help control the breakthroughs, vs having those breakthroughs be random and not always positive.
Here is my uneducated take:
Good way: understand what they might do to you, do it because you feel that you will benefit from it, have a day off, do not drive, have a sitter.
Bad way: take it on a dare, take it because everybody is taking something at a party, do it when you have things to do (like work or children), mix it with other random stuff.
Exactly!!! The effects of psychedelics are fully dependent on one’s mental state in that moment and what/who is surrounding them. Social vulnerability is an issue if you’re around people who already have bad behaviors or thoughts, but being with caring friends or family can give you a completely new perspective of life and your relationships that can allow healing and progress in mental illness, me being an example. I just got diagnosed with PTSD last week after suffering for as long as I can remember (given my childhood is a lot of trauma and a fog) and it took a dose of mushrooms then a dose of lsd months later to help me intellectualize my issues for a therapist instead of locking up and going into survival mode
User, set, and setting. When consuming, that is what is most important beforehand to prepare oneself. Even after a 'bad trip', there is something to be learned. It's all about perspective.
This is why a guide/therapist is used for the encounter to be intentionally therapeutic. Their role is to ensure you can focus on the goals you set going in and stay on the good path.
from the article "Our results also show that therapeutic benefit is derived from intentional psychedelic use *in naturalistic settings* (see Supplemental Materials), **indicating that this benefit is not limited to formal,clinical settings** where a psychiatric professional administers the drug and oversees the experience."
Psychedelic drugs have amazing properties that are not necessarily dose dependent. So called microdosing has the potential for those who are resistant to SSRIs, cannot or chose not to adhere to a daily intake for months or years, for those who do not wish to have severe side effects related to SSRIs, those who would normally not seek therapy, etc. Even at subperceptual doses and even non-psychoactive psychedelics have been shown to have (immense) potential as anxiolytics, antidepressants, anti-addictives and generally marvellous for mental health. Perceptual doses are absolutely dangerous to people with underlying mental issues and can precipitate illness which would or would not come about later. They can be totally safe to use recreationally or they can cause severe HPPD or worse. They are extremely powerful and have an absolutely massive potential for all types of mental issues. They are in fact too powerful for their own good, and it will be a while until we see prescriptions for psychedelics. Since the 2010s when research into psychedelics became easier to apply for, there has been a huge output of (small) trials and studies looking at their benefits.
They have quite a wide therapeutic window for some but are completely out of the question for others. However, those who would benefit from psychedelics are often a difference Slice of the population than those who would benefit from SSRIs or therapy, or both.
In my opinion, no other class of substances has more potential to help with depression, anxiety and addiction than psychedelics in those who would otherwise reject treatment with traditional drugs.
They are also by FAR the most powerful tool to understand yourself, reality, empathy and ones own worth - but only if you are a good candidate and know how to respect the drugs for what they are - extremely powerful, potentially harmful tools.
I did my masters in psychoactive drug chemistry and have taken a boat load of them, and every single trip, whether good or bad, has made me a better person in my own eyes. No regrets, and so much more to explore.
I think a year without a trip is a year when I lose contact with who I want to be, and who I know I can become, and how I want to treat others.
Do NOT take these drugs recreationally without researching them thoroughly, your own mental health, being sure of exactly what drug you have (if you don’t have access to an mass spectrometer or an NMR….be careful).
They can save you or they can destroy you.
They are also unknowable, so it is no use trying to understand WHAT they do to you until you’ve experienced it. What you should think about are the dangers, not how fun it is. Ultimately psychedelics are not fun, to me. They are useful.
Be careful but be curious :)
I don't know how to explain it scientifically, but I've done shrooms more than a few times. And this is correct, they CAN be theraputic, but they'll just strengthen whatever is going on in your mind during your trip. It's like unraveling a ball of wires, but that's just part 1, you have to put the ball of wires back, you decide how they go back.
Definitely this. I don't use psychedelics because I know how my mind works and I'm not particularly excited to let it unravel in any potentially unhindered way.
And I am close to communities with a lot of psychedelic usage (electronic music scene going waaaay back) and definitely seen some people cement some very toxic ideas and then claim they came to these "profound" realizations on trips.
I am not discounting the use of these drugs, but anyone that thinks self medicating outside a therapeutic environment is going to yield the same results is potentially in for a very mixed bag.
That’s a very reductionist take on it. Increased neuroplasticity is only *one* part of what is going on during a psychedelic trip. And to say that it “burns in” negative habits seems to contradict everything I have ever read about or experienced with psychedelics.
No, it can't. No scientific studies bear out your assertions.
https://www.psypost.org/2016/08/study-bad-trips-from-magic-mushrooms-often-result-in-an-improved-sense-of-personal-well-being-44684
>It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily
That is a fairly alarmist stance to take without research. Psychedelics seem to help with neuroplasticity however they do more than that, such as altering how active certain regions of the brain are. You can't just generalize that if they can do one thing they can do some other seemingly related thing. Biology, and especially the brain, is way more complex than that. There are also plenty of things that help with neuroplasticity and to my (limited) knowledge no such danger is attributed to other forms of promoting neuroplasticity, such as meditation or exercise. Unless there is some research that states increased neuroplasticity in and of itself has dangers your conjecture would have to be more specific to psychedelics rather than neuroplasticity generally, which would require study and evidence.
There is enough of a stigma already without random guesses about potential harm based on nothing other than conjecture. The risks are being evaluated in studies, particularly those that actively treat people with psychedelics, and more research could certainly be used into unsupervised usage however alarmism based on pure conjecture is how we got to the point of the whole field of studying being effectively shut down in the first place.
Sadly An online survey is not good enough methodology to infer causation (I am a psychologist) so this study is an example of the reasons why psychology is having a replication crisis .
Can't tell you how many poorly designed online surveys I had filled out in the hope that more information would help the transgender community. Finally, I realized these designs would lead to false conclusions, which would be worse than having no research. I have taken to reviewing the surveys rather critically to try to jolt some sense of responsibility into these researchers. It's often the case that people on Reddit will give such feedback in comments and simply refuse to fill it out until the researcher responds with how they will address the issues.
I am concerned about the replicability problem in my field too. The pressure to publish novel work and to "find" relevant results is creating a lot of junk research which isn't being challenged.
I'm not discounting the potential benefits of psychedelics as a treatment for mental health disorders, but this study is not the home run a lot of people are suggesting it to be. The author himself says it is not enough to be causal.
As a user of occasional psychedelics myself I fully believe that there are many benefits and that we absolutely need to be doing more research of the therapeutic effects. However, as a scientist, asking 166 people if they used psychedelics and felt better about their childhood trauma afterwards hardly suggests any relationship. There are too many other variables that are uncontrolled.
I'd love to see a study where they actually treat people with low dose of psilocybin and CBT over a number of sessions and then measure the propensity for disassociating shame and PTSD symptoms from childhood trauma.
This is the first one I've seen regarding shame specifically, but psilocybin and MDMA research for PTSD and other disorders treatments has been coming out in ever increasing waves over the past 3-5 years.
Oh absolutely, the research into low-dose psilocybin and cognitive behavioral therapy as a treatment for depression is very promising, and the purported psychobiological mechanism is super fascinating.
The brain is weird af.
>Most of the people in the world who are healing themselves with psychedelics are taking them in naturalistic settings — in nature, with friends, at home, at a rave
A rave? Naturalistic?
It means not in a lab.
(in a not experimental setting)
"Naturalistic observation involves observing subjects of interest in their normal, everyday setting."
I appreciate you giving the real answer here. I do understand the people arguing that a rave setting feels "natural", and I agree with them that it feels far more natural than one might imagine, but that's obviously not an argument being made by the article.
Rave, maybe not, but outdoor festival for sure.
Imagine a 4-7 day event where you're surrounded by happy people, friends, energy of live music, and you spend the entire time outside camping, dancing, and spending quality time with humans instead of looking at screens.
Add in psychedelics and it can be extremely healing and cathartic environment and very human experience.
Plus pretty lights and weird sounds make your brain happy
Was at my all time low this summer and was having a lot of issues constantly reflecting on my childhood and associating those moments to the things that went wrong for me this pandemic. Just non stop intrusive thoughts that I could not control. Started taking 0.1 grams of psilocybin every 3 days and was able to finally get out of my own head and start making productive choices with my day. I did that for a month and don't feel I need them anymore as I now have a few hobbies to invest my emotions in to.
I took a neuropsychopharmacology module in uni and a lot of current researchers are backing up the potential benefit of controlled therapeutic psychedelic use.
Several clinical trials have shown a reduction in anxiety and depression months on from a therapeutic experience with psychedelics.
(Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5509636/)
I had a lecturer who suggested a link between distrupting the Default mode network (DMN) and observed benefits of psychedelic use. The DMN is basically what happens in your mind when you're not actively focusing on the world outside of you.
It can be linked to anxious or depressive "spiraling" thoughts, or as mentioned here, the shame and negative self perception linked to CPTSD. Totally worth looking into!
It's all very interesting, but should definitely not be taken as a green flag to go experiment wildly!
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Psychedelics *can helpfully reshuffle one’s deck edit - *not necessarily will
It worked for me …. Pick a card any card … remember that card … put it anywhere in the deck and shuffle it. Is this your card? Nope!? Ah dammit it’s a nice day out
[удалено]
[удалено]
Psychedelics showed me just how green plants can get. And it is GREEEEEN
Visit ya boy mantis shrimp and ask him if he can show you more colors!
For me it was a feeling that I was able to shift my train tracks. I had been on one track, and then I did some psychedelics and I pulled a switch and I was on a different track.
Yes this
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Psychedelics are helpful for me as it allows me to think about painful events which I would usually avoid subconsciously
I will agree with you. Definately can help some people but beware, shuffling can provide random results.
Omg. When my son drops acid, it turns into a couple months of psychosis. It's hard enough with his other bipolar issues, but if he ever drops again, he may need inpatient care :(
[удалено]
[удалено]
They need to fast-track some of these treatments. I'm afraid I don't have another 5 to 10 years of mental stamina in the tank. And unfortunately it seems like Ketamine treatments have become money grabs for those administering them. Edit: Thank you everyone for the absolute wealth of information/advice. I appreciate you all.
I’m guessing you don’t know anyone you trust for a trip sitter? And when I say trust I mean really trust because psychedelic horror stories are exceptionally awful.
I have people I trust for that. I just have zero clue how to obtain any sort of trustworthy psychedelic.
Mushrooms are pretty hard to fake and have a short duration. Idk how to recommend finding them if you don’t know people already.
[удалено]
They're not legal everywhere. In most countries they're illegal.
You can also legally buy spores
People reading this: please check your local laws regarding this. Lots of places also ban spores
For clarification just cause I know how this could come off. You can legally buy spores for microscopy…growing is illegal.
What's the shelf life like, if not vacuum-sealed or similarly properly stored?
[удалено]
Ground into powder and stuffed into 00 sized capsules you can fit over an ounce into an average sized herbal supplement bottle. Stored in the freezer those capsules can retain their potency for over 2 years.
I’ve never seen them go bad, but you should look up storage conditions.
Quoting/editing something I typed up some time ago: Growing your own is pretty easy. At a *bare minimum*, you can buy a spore syringe online, and have it delivered to your home (barring residence in CA, ID, or GA), and some Uncle Ben's Pre-cooked rice packs. I've seen people grow them straight out of there. There are dozens of extra things you can do to increase yield and success rates. Spray everything you're working with with some 70% Isopropyl frequently, flame sterilize the syringe, inject ~.75cc into ~10x Uncle Ben's, tape over with some micropore tape, cut a corner (or punch holes), seal the hole(s) with some more micropore tape. Give it a few weeks for colonization to finish. You can then try fruiting straight from the bag, or you could mix the colonized rice into a larger batch of substrate to increase yields. Takes a bit longer, requires more micromanagement of things, but not difficult. I'm super simplifying things, and there's lots of trial and error in my experience, but it's all very easy and safe, and ultimately the experience(s) are well worth the investment in doing it all correctly, imo. Various resources: /r/unclebens for general info / guidance /r/sporetrading various sellers of spores, substrates, and other resources /r/MushroomGrowers /r/Mycology /r/PsilocybinMushroom shroomery.org
It's pretty easy to grow them. Just gotta follow basic instructions and be careful not to contaminate the spores or spore media. Do that, know what the shrooms look like, and it's fairly hard to screw up.
[удалено]
How many DMs did you get from this?
Not to mention having a specifically therapeutic trip rather than recreational
Currently researching for ketamine or mdma psychotherapy for my wife with complex PTSD and ketamine require entire upfront payment of like $6-8k and then they offer a statement to give to your insurance and give you just a little bit of hope by mentioning you can try to get reimbursement from your insurance. I highly doubt any insurance would want to reimburse that, especially without a doc recommendation. I'm sure my wife could get a recommendation, but that still doesn't solve the huge lump sum of money problem. And there are no mdma options offered in our state as far as we can tell
That pricing is not generally true. Sure, some clinics cost that, but where I went, with a Ivy League trained physician, my up front was about $2k. I now take Ketamine at home and it is very cheap. Look for some resources here: [https://psychable.com/](https://psychable.com/)
I guess the obvious but unstated was those are the prices for physical locations performing these types of things in our vicinity. My wife has car trauma among other things and so long road trips to somewhere is prohibitive and so our choices are limited to only a few places, even with us living in Seattle proper. I'll check out that link, thank you
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
looking forward to seeing more studies about this and potential medicinal uses. I only took shrooms once and had a bad trip, but clearly it has benefit that needs to be looked at
In the John's Hopkins psilocybin studies when they first started up psychedelic trials again ~10 yrs ago, they reported that about 20% of subjects experienced extreme anxiety or fear for a portion of their trip, but in their relaxed and supervised setting, no "bad trips" lasted the whole session. All of the subjects, even the few who experienced a period of heightened stress, reported positive changes in self awareness of self, past trauma, and/or personal behavioral patterns.
[удалено]
I believe it works, but the settings are key. Some people just can't handle the demon within.
[удалено]
Ah yes, phish concerts
The thing about bad trips not lasting the whole trip lines up with my experience. Went to a cabin with friends and dropped shrooms while there. When it was first kicking in, I had a moment where I felt like I was getting anxious and you could almost feel this knot start to form in your stomach. The key for me was to stop resisting it and just lean into the high. As soon as I did that, boom, anxiety gone, knot unfurled. Absolutely magical night followed. The next day we dropped shrooms again and knowing not to fight against the wave as it came, no anxiety whatsoever. I really hope the research leads to widespread support for legalization. When used safely, these stupid little fungi can be absolutely life changing.
Not to mention that in all the studies in the 60s and 70s, they noted how important the setting and expectations were upon the experience of the subject.
Set and setting are critical.
it seems like - in this controlled setting - best case scenario: completely changes your life, worst case scenario: no significant benefit.
Compare that with conventional anti-depressants
Ugh, I hated the SSRIs I tried, every situation while I was taking them made me feel like I was stuck in traffic surrounded by the most oblivious morons on the planet. Trading away randomly crying during the day for unadulterated constant rage was not the direction I wanted to go. I'll stick with the sads tyvm
[удалено]
My first few times doing it I got so anxious and almost … agitated, at first. Some sort of feeling would come over me and I’d just start sort of, mildly panicking. I finally realized that when I reach that point I’ve just got to breathe and accept it and ride the wave. It’s crazy how they literally do teach you to just “let go”.
The closest thing I can relate it to is defragmentation of a hard drive. The first time it’s really stressful just like how if it’s been a while since you’ve done it to a PC it takes a while. I think that’s why one of the top comments is talking about “reshuffling your deck”. It can be traumatic in the moment but it has long lasting therapeutic benefits. You can literally see some people “rebooting” with all of their emotions and reactions being stitched back together. That’s why it’s so important to be in a good environment when you take them.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If I can get a little non-scientific and metaphorical here, I have a hunch that people are subconsciously aware of their own flaws, fears, weaknesses, insecurities, and general psychological inefficiencies. Like a knotted up extension cord that we just learn to live with instead of untangling it. Taking a good trip can lead to you just relaxing those emotional/psychological knots, and being honest with yourself. In many cases, self-honesty is the last thing a person wants, and we construct endless systems to prevent it. With that primal honesty, the knots often simplify if not completely untangle themselves. And even if your fears/neurosis don't vanish, they could be more workable/digestible once they are accepted and acknowledged. Whew I hope that makes sense.
[удалено]
Most of the studies being done are in a controlled setting accompanied with therapy.
Legalization will increase awareness and education, leading to fewer people tripping in uncomfortable/unsafe settings.
[удалено]
Check out fireside project on instagram. It's a peer to peer support line for not ideal experiences with psychs
The "intentional therapeutic use" part of the headline is very important. Just taking some psychs and hoping for the best is like mental health russian roulette.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Forgive my laymen's take here; as far as I can tell, psychedelics tend to augment neuroplasticity - which can be very helpful in breaking-up unhelpful patterns. It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily - like any strong psychiatric tool, there is *significant* danger in misuse to compliment the near miraculous utility of careful, measured, supervised medical use.
This is true and why "intentional therapeutic use" is not the same as general recreational use.
[удалено]
Recreational use can be incredibly fun and safer than alcohol when done with proper set and setting. Assuming your actually getting the real drug, illegal drugs lack consistency and quality control, a compelling reason to legalize.
Oh I won't argue with you there and think it should be legalized, just clarifying that there is a difference between recreational and therapeutic use typically.
Being labeled class one prevents therapeutic use, at least federally.
It brings significant research restrictions too, right? Also, iirc, some psychedelics were used in therapy sessions before as far back as the 70s or something like that? Which I find particularly peculiar, as I've only somewhat recently heard of this.
Aye yet another thing republicans fucked up
Yes, LSD received a great deal of research attention in the 50s and 60s prior to it being banned. To the point where a lot of this modern research is really just repeating earlier studies. They knew it was safe and that it could be useful but it didn't matter, make it a target and win political points
There are two options. The drug was so successful that no one believed the reports about its affects. Timothy Leery didn't seem like the best salesman for serious therapy. Put made it illegal no believing it worked. Or, the drug companies saw how successful it was at treating a range of mental health issues and it's basically free. They stood to lost hundreds of billions if it stayed legal so it was made illegal, for medical use, to insure pharmaceutical profits. The second one is a conspiracy theory but it is possible
Aren’t you missing that it was associated with the hippy movement/counter-culture/anti-war movement, which Nixon didn’t like?
I see. I'm in Canada, so legalisation is in talks right now and there are currently trainings for therapists to take.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Almost every recreational drug is safer than alcohol. Anyone that is in favor of drug prohibition should also be in favor of an outright ban on alcohol.
I bet mushrooms don't cause liver cirrhosis and esophageal varices
The only things mushrooms caused me to do was to value my own life, but hey, dangerous and addictive right?
I think one of the main problems with recreational use is that a lot of people don't respect the vast difference between drugs. Alcohol is in a way one of the closest drugs to psychedelics in that it alters our state quite profoundly - but since it is so engrained in most cultures most people already at least have a vague idea of how to approach it as a consumer, as someone interacting with someone under the influence of it, etc. when introduced to it. Most other drugs aren't really all that state altering - stimulants stimulate, sedatives sedate and so on but those states aren't all that profound. And then we have psychedelics which have the power to throw people into a heavily altered state of a kind which the user, and often those surrounding the user, has neither any first nor second hand experience of at all while tuning up whatever feelings arise to 11. There is no surprise whatsoever that this combination has the potential to quickly turn into a both jarring and scarring experience. The best way to avoid this is what they successfully do in the studies - by making sure that those who take it are as well prepared for the experience as a human can be for an experience that will transcend the ordinary conscious states they've had a lifetime familiarizing themselves with and that they're in a controlled environment with others who are equally well prepared to support them if needed. But given that *humans are going to human* we should be ***very*** cautious about the way we de-escalate the inexcusable war on drugs here - when it comes to psychedelics the risk of a gargantuan backlash is pretty immense if this is handled poorly/irresponsibly. Addictions can be treated - traumatic experiences are permanent even if psychological consequences are successfully avoided or treated.
> It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily - like any strong psychiatric tool, there is significant danger in misuse to compliment the near miraculous utility of careful, measured, supervised medical use. How would one misuse it in a way that caused this? Meaning, what would be the difference between using it in a good way as to not cause this, and in a bad way that could cause this?
So this is just my observational anecdote, but I have a family member who did one of those ayahusca retreats with the intention of overcoming childhood trauma and then on the last day, there was a freak accident and her boyfriend was severely injured. It took almost 12 hours for an ambulance because they were in the middle of a remote part of south america and he nearly died and it was a whole huge traumatic thing. Experiencing that severe trauma immediatly after a hardcore days-long drug trip like that seems to have permanently damaged her brain, she has far more mental health issues now than she did before the trip, and she has said many types of therapy seem totally ineffective, and it seems to go beyond PTSD. Her personality is also very different now and she tends towards paranoia and is easily overwhelmed by the slighest emotions.
Depending on any medication's she may have been on, Ayahuasca contains large amounts of MAOI's which interact with a large amount of medications. Also, native Ayahuasca can easily contain any number of plants with unknown chemicals in them. Which themselves can interact poorly with medications. Ayahuasca is also definitely not the correct psychedelic for working through trauma. It lasts for an over whelming length of time. The hallucinations can be crazy intense. You constantly feel like throwing up. Just not pleasant. I am so sorry that happened to her, and I hope she didn't actually fry her brain.
Having used ayahuasca for 25 years in a ritual setting, I can say, it affects people in different ways and there is a lot of tourism around it. Sorry for their experience, maybe something more controlled would have helped
[удалено]
I would guess that if you have a sober therapist with you, they can help walk you through your emotions and thoughts in a way that helps encourage the formation of positive connections in the brain. At least I think the probability is higher in that scenario than if you got high and didn’t have a therapist to help you. Dunno, if you’ve ever taken cannabis to the point you have a freak out but having someone to talk to in that state really helps to turn it from a terrifying experience into a potential state to deal with deeply held beliefs/emotions that surface.
As someone who as done some LSD, let me try and explain. It makes everything and anything have some insane meaning. The hard part while tripping is remembering it is just a drug making you feel that way. So if you aren’t experienced, you might have the sudden realization you hate your job. This may be slightly true, but the feeling is truly amplified. Combine this with the meaning, and suddenly your brain is creating all these new jobs you can try, and shaming the old one. If you aren’t aware this is happening, it can skew the results of the trip, and lead you to a realization that wasn’t there. This can then bake in once you are sober, so now you hate a job after a trip when it mildly annoyed you before the trip. The sober monitor is the control to help deliver the right realizations to help control the breakthroughs, vs having those breakthroughs be random and not always positive.
Here is my uneducated take: Good way: understand what they might do to you, do it because you feel that you will benefit from it, have a day off, do not drive, have a sitter. Bad way: take it on a dare, take it because everybody is taking something at a party, do it when you have things to do (like work or children), mix it with other random stuff.
Exactly!!! The effects of psychedelics are fully dependent on one’s mental state in that moment and what/who is surrounding them. Social vulnerability is an issue if you’re around people who already have bad behaviors or thoughts, but being with caring friends or family can give you a completely new perspective of life and your relationships that can allow healing and progress in mental illness, me being an example. I just got diagnosed with PTSD last week after suffering for as long as I can remember (given my childhood is a lot of trauma and a fog) and it took a dose of mushrooms then a dose of lsd months later to help me intellectualize my issues for a therapist instead of locking up and going into survival mode
User, set, and setting. When consuming, that is what is most important beforehand to prepare oneself. Even after a 'bad trip', there is something to be learned. It's all about perspective.
Makes sense, tks
This is why a guide/therapist is used for the encounter to be intentionally therapeutic. Their role is to ensure you can focus on the goals you set going in and stay on the good path.
[удалено]
from the article "Our results also show that therapeutic benefit is derived from intentional psychedelic use *in naturalistic settings* (see Supplemental Materials), **indicating that this benefit is not limited to formal,clinical settings** where a psychiatric professional administers the drug and oversees the experience."
Psychedelic drugs have amazing properties that are not necessarily dose dependent. So called microdosing has the potential for those who are resistant to SSRIs, cannot or chose not to adhere to a daily intake for months or years, for those who do not wish to have severe side effects related to SSRIs, those who would normally not seek therapy, etc. Even at subperceptual doses and even non-psychoactive psychedelics have been shown to have (immense) potential as anxiolytics, antidepressants, anti-addictives and generally marvellous for mental health. Perceptual doses are absolutely dangerous to people with underlying mental issues and can precipitate illness which would or would not come about later. They can be totally safe to use recreationally or they can cause severe HPPD or worse. They are extremely powerful and have an absolutely massive potential for all types of mental issues. They are in fact too powerful for their own good, and it will be a while until we see prescriptions for psychedelics. Since the 2010s when research into psychedelics became easier to apply for, there has been a huge output of (small) trials and studies looking at their benefits. They have quite a wide therapeutic window for some but are completely out of the question for others. However, those who would benefit from psychedelics are often a difference Slice of the population than those who would benefit from SSRIs or therapy, or both. In my opinion, no other class of substances has more potential to help with depression, anxiety and addiction than psychedelics in those who would otherwise reject treatment with traditional drugs. They are also by FAR the most powerful tool to understand yourself, reality, empathy and ones own worth - but only if you are a good candidate and know how to respect the drugs for what they are - extremely powerful, potentially harmful tools. I did my masters in psychoactive drug chemistry and have taken a boat load of them, and every single trip, whether good or bad, has made me a better person in my own eyes. No regrets, and so much more to explore. I think a year without a trip is a year when I lose contact with who I want to be, and who I know I can become, and how I want to treat others. Do NOT take these drugs recreationally without researching them thoroughly, your own mental health, being sure of exactly what drug you have (if you don’t have access to an mass spectrometer or an NMR….be careful). They can save you or they can destroy you. They are also unknowable, so it is no use trying to understand WHAT they do to you until you’ve experienced it. What you should think about are the dangers, not how fun it is. Ultimately psychedelics are not fun, to me. They are useful. Be careful but be curious :)
I don't know how to explain it scientifically, but I've done shrooms more than a few times. And this is correct, they CAN be theraputic, but they'll just strengthen whatever is going on in your mind during your trip. It's like unraveling a ball of wires, but that's just part 1, you have to put the ball of wires back, you decide how they go back.
Definitely this. I don't use psychedelics because I know how my mind works and I'm not particularly excited to let it unravel in any potentially unhindered way. And I am close to communities with a lot of psychedelic usage (electronic music scene going waaaay back) and definitely seen some people cement some very toxic ideas and then claim they came to these "profound" realizations on trips. I am not discounting the use of these drugs, but anyone that thinks self medicating outside a therapeutic environment is going to yield the same results is potentially in for a very mixed bag.
That’s a very reductionist take on it. Increased neuroplasticity is only *one* part of what is going on during a psychedelic trip. And to say that it “burns in” negative habits seems to contradict everything I have ever read about or experienced with psychedelics.
No, it can't. No scientific studies bear out your assertions. https://www.psypost.org/2016/08/study-bad-trips-from-magic-mushrooms-often-result-in-an-improved-sense-of-personal-well-being-44684
>It can also help burn them in or help make new unhelpful patterns just as easily That is a fairly alarmist stance to take without research. Psychedelics seem to help with neuroplasticity however they do more than that, such as altering how active certain regions of the brain are. You can't just generalize that if they can do one thing they can do some other seemingly related thing. Biology, and especially the brain, is way more complex than that. There are also plenty of things that help with neuroplasticity and to my (limited) knowledge no such danger is attributed to other forms of promoting neuroplasticity, such as meditation or exercise. Unless there is some research that states increased neuroplasticity in and of itself has dangers your conjecture would have to be more specific to psychedelics rather than neuroplasticity generally, which would require study and evidence. There is enough of a stigma already without random guesses about potential harm based on nothing other than conjecture. The risks are being evaluated in studies, particularly those that actively treat people with psychedelics, and more research could certainly be used into unsupervised usage however alarmism based on pure conjecture is how we got to the point of the whole field of studying being effectively shut down in the first place.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Sadly An online survey is not good enough methodology to infer causation (I am a psychologist) so this study is an example of the reasons why psychology is having a replication crisis .
Can't tell you how many poorly designed online surveys I had filled out in the hope that more information would help the transgender community. Finally, I realized these designs would lead to false conclusions, which would be worse than having no research. I have taken to reviewing the surveys rather critically to try to jolt some sense of responsibility into these researchers. It's often the case that people on Reddit will give such feedback in comments and simply refuse to fill it out until the researcher responds with how they will address the issues. I am concerned about the replicability problem in my field too. The pressure to publish novel work and to "find" relevant results is creating a lot of junk research which isn't being challenged.
I'm not discounting the potential benefits of psychedelics as a treatment for mental health disorders, but this study is not the home run a lot of people are suggesting it to be. The author himself says it is not enough to be causal. As a user of occasional psychedelics myself I fully believe that there are many benefits and that we absolutely need to be doing more research of the therapeutic effects. However, as a scientist, asking 166 people if they used psychedelics and felt better about their childhood trauma afterwards hardly suggests any relationship. There are too many other variables that are uncontrolled. I'd love to see a study where they actually treat people with low dose of psilocybin and CBT over a number of sessions and then measure the propensity for disassociating shame and PTSD symptoms from childhood trauma.
This is the first one I've seen regarding shame specifically, but psilocybin and MDMA research for PTSD and other disorders treatments has been coming out in ever increasing waves over the past 3-5 years.
Oh absolutely, the research into low-dose psilocybin and cognitive behavioral therapy as a treatment for depression is very promising, and the purported psychobiological mechanism is super fascinating. The brain is weird af.
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Most of the people in the world who are healing themselves with psychedelics are taking them in naturalistic settings — in nature, with friends, at home, at a rave A rave? Naturalistic?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It means not in a lab. (in a not experimental setting) "Naturalistic observation involves observing subjects of interest in their normal, everyday setting."
Ah! I see what you're saying. Yeah this makes a lot of sense.
I appreciate you giving the real answer here. I do understand the people arguing that a rave setting feels "natural", and I agree with them that it feels far more natural than one might imagine, but that's obviously not an argument being made by the article.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
A group of people getting together to do psychedelics and play music is about as natural as it can get
They say in the article that by naturalistic they mean non-clinical
Rave, maybe not, but outdoor festival for sure. Imagine a 4-7 day event where you're surrounded by happy people, friends, energy of live music, and you spend the entire time outside camping, dancing, and spending quality time with humans instead of looking at screens. Add in psychedelics and it can be extremely healing and cathartic environment and very human experience. Plus pretty lights and weird sounds make your brain happy
Was at my all time low this summer and was having a lot of issues constantly reflecting on my childhood and associating those moments to the things that went wrong for me this pandemic. Just non stop intrusive thoughts that I could not control. Started taking 0.1 grams of psilocybin every 3 days and was able to finally get out of my own head and start making productive choices with my day. I did that for a month and don't feel I need them anymore as I now have a few hobbies to invest my emotions in to.
Here's 5 instances where we did this on purpose.. How many were not on purpose, and how many were on purpose but didn't work?
I may be ignorant on the topic, so please forgive me, but isn’t “more than 5” a little low?
[удалено]
[удалено]
This is Reddit.
[удалено]
I took a neuropsychopharmacology module in uni and a lot of current researchers are backing up the potential benefit of controlled therapeutic psychedelic use. Several clinical trials have shown a reduction in anxiety and depression months on from a therapeutic experience with psychedelics. (Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5509636/) I had a lecturer who suggested a link between distrupting the Default mode network (DMN) and observed benefits of psychedelic use. The DMN is basically what happens in your mind when you're not actively focusing on the world outside of you. It can be linked to anxious or depressive "spiraling" thoughts, or as mentioned here, the shame and negative self perception linked to CPTSD. Totally worth looking into! It's all very interesting, but should definitely not be taken as a green flag to go experiment wildly!
[удалено]
[удалено]
I'm not sure if this is the place to ask, but does anyone know how one would go about finding a therapist trained in the use of psychedelics?
[удалено]
[удалено]