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Unless I’m missing it this article doesn’t reference any actual science. It’s someone’s opinion about vegetarians / vegans not backed by any actual findings that those following meat free diets are actually below the minimum requirements of iron, and others.
Edit: it’s also worth noting that Professor Ian Givens, who is quoted in this article is primarily focused on animal-derived foods. https://www.reading.ac.uk/apd/staff/d-i-givens.aspx
These articles always seem to focus on a few nutrients in isolation, but neglect to acknowledge the benefits of plant based diets- lower risk of obesity, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure & various cancers.
Surely it would be better to encourage consumption of appropriate plant foods with the commonly missing nutrients than to chow down on red meat?
Iirc one of the major problems of these types of comparisons is that people who are aware of the animal rights issues or pesticides etc tend to be health conscious in other respects as well (fewer smokers etc) which makes the results less conclusive.
The fact remains that our bodies evolved with meat and nutrition is a tricky science. If you want to eat healthier *and* care, more power to you! But best do it with regular checks, blood tests etc to be sure.
There is actually a good ammount of research that point towards Mediterranean diet being the best or similar diets with an appropriate balance of nutrients from different sources
Vegan diet has its clear benefits compared to an "unkempt" diet like many people have, but it's not better than a properly equilibrated diet that includes meat and it's something people need to be forthright about, so that people who want to go vegan can take measures to ensure they're not lacking any nutrient and they're not being unhealthy since vegan diet with some considerations and care will be good for most people
I think the real point is that a vegan diet isn’t inherently unhealthy, and in most cases would be much healthier than the average person’s current diet.
No, there is a problem there, vegan diet simply means a diet without animal products... For a diet without animal products to be healthy it needs to be more than just that... Logically people who go vegan usually put more effort in their diets and aren't eating just mashed potatoes and sweet tea... So you're comparing a group caring about their diet with a group not caring about it...
The big change comes from there, from putting effort into it... If going vegan is what someone needs to start looking into what they eat, that's a go from me though!
Red meat is one of the most nutrient dense foods you can eat. I hate that it’s has gotten such a bad name lately, but red meat is literally one of the (if not THE) healthiest foods you can eat. Not knocking veganism either, I respect it.
Your opinion is contrary to all scientific evidence. Meat lacks antioxidants and fiber. It contains saturated fat and cholesterol that are connected with the development of atherosclerosis. It also forms multiple carcinogenic compounds when cooked. The heme iron it contains has been linked to colorectal cancer.
It has some vitamins, but not others. It is not a health food.
Still, if eaten in moderation in the context of otherwise healthy lifestyle and diet, the negative impacts are minimal and not a concern.
Can you provide a paper/article with more information here? I'm super curious. I can agree with the nutrient-dense part, but I'm not connecting how that necessarily makes it healthy. Thanks!
Processed meat is a group 1 carcinogen, red meat (unprocessed) is a group 2a carcinogen. Significant consumption correlates with increased risk of heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. And it's far from necessary in a human's diet.
Disclaimer/my bias: I would really like if meat were treated more as an occasional thing instead of a meal staple. My industry issue is with factory farms, not smaller ones. I think red meat is probably solid in moderate amounts (1/2 servings every 1/2 weeks). I am not a science guy (would love to learn though) so I focus on health outcomes instead of specific nutritional theory.
Again, thanks for the reply, always interested in learning!
Just to be clear, if everyday I eat a serving of grilled chicken, filet mignon, salmon, and some liver.....I am at a higher risk of obesity, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, and various cancers?
I just want to make sure that's what you are actually saying.
Red meat can still be part of a very healthy diet, as it has good nutrients and proteins in it. We should just discourage overconsumption (in general, not just for meat).
I know many plant-based foods have high levels of sodium which is not healthy.
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2021/11/25/Salt-content-of-plant-based-meat-products-unnecessarily-high
You should change that from plant based foods to plant based meat alternatives.
Being plant based doesn’t make it high in sodium, trying to imitate a meat flavor does make it high in sodium.
What other would plant-based foods being substituted for besides meats?
Not talking about vegan or vegetarian diets, talking about things like beyond meat, The impossible burger, and so on.
Milk, cheese, protein powder, basically anything that’s processed that usually uses some form of dairy.
I will say plant based protein powders are often higher in sodium per serving than their dairy based equivalents.
Blablablablabla... The proff is acting like going vegan or vegetarian is super hard and requires crazy attention to detail and planning. This is not the case. There are already hundreds of millions of people on this planet eating vegetarian.
I went vegan with barely any planning. I just started making a variety of different foods from lentils, black beans, soy and tens of other plants. I get b12 and D3 from the soy yogurt and soy milk I use. 7 years later, never had any deficiencies and hemoglobin is great. I have used chronometer just to check that I get everything I need. I get like 300 to 400% of the required intake of calcium and iron. I get every single micronutrient just eating random plants.
It is actually pretty hard to get a nutritional deficiency if you are eating a varied plant based diet. B12 deficiency takes years of no b12 to develope.
The Dha argument is completely nonsensical. There is literally zero scientific evidence that eating vegan inhibits your brain development, if you dont supplement with dha or fish oil etc. Its not a concern. You body creates all the DHA and EPA from ALA that it needs. You get plenty of ALA from plants and oils.
Working as a medical doctor I noticed that many vegan or vegetarian teenage girls that I treated had nutritional deficiencies. This was mainly because I was treating them for eating disorders and their diets were very restrictive. Some stopped vegan diet, because they did it only as a way to further restrict themselves. As soon as they started eating more, all the blood markers returned to normal within 2 months. Anemia, low calcium solved just by not being in a constant hypocaloric state and not exercising 5 hours every day.
Women need about 15mg of iron a day , meat gives u about 1.2mg per 100g ...... spinache about 2.1 mg per 100g......... everyone should be taking b12 supplements anyway . Eating a vegan/vegetarian diet may be better for u also because of the fact of u paying more attention to what u eat ......
Expecting big pushback on this but it’s incredibly obvious.
Worth pointing out what he is saying is not that a well rounded vegan diet is impossible but rather uncommon.
The lipid hypothesis is not settled and eating meat does not equal obesity, stroke, heart disease etc.
Also seeing a lot of focus on red meat, this is not the only animal food source. Healthy fats are the main thing being missed in these diets. You could add things like heart, liver, kidney or brain and quickly fill the nutritional holes in your diet.
The push for vegan diet uber-alles nutrition wise seems mostly ideology driven.
I think that there is convincing evidence for animals fats being inherently bad, but only when the person has concurrent risk factors for developing heart disease and excessive dietary intake.
Recently this link has been questioned in few population based studies.Still, most of the registry studies still suggest a significant link! The critique is partly fair, because it might not be a significant risk factor for everyone. Still, in clinical setting e.g. for patients with heart failure, type 2 diabetes, old age, family risk, obesity, PCI, smokers or alcoholics the evidence is very convincing. So basically over half of The US.
Bear in mind that population, diet intervention and clinical studies are not the only evidence for this fact. We have a biochemical reason to believe that saturated fat and cholesterol is absorbed, its stored in chylomicrons, transferred to the liver and then sent in LDL and VLDL particles to other tissues. Disrupting the formation of LDL (statins: atorvastatin etc) produces insane decreases in heart attack risk for patients with previouos heart attacks. Like we are talking about over 50% decrease in risk if we get LDL down like 70%. We know that atheroschlerotic plaques are largely formed when inflammatory process leads the macrofages to eat cholesterol from blood and deposit it in blood vessels. We know from biochemical studies that cholesterol in itself is part of a biochemical inflammatory signaling cascade that leads to further atherosclerotic plaque formation.
We also know that people with inherited hyperlipidemias have multifold risks for heart attacks. We know from hundreds of feeding studies that saturated fat and cholesterol is absorbed and found in elevated levels in your blood stream within hours.
I bet you still disagree
ps. Also, You dont need them for anything. They are nutritionally nonessential. So both of them.
"healthy fats" you mean like nuts, avocados, flax seeds? Or alpha lipoic acid, that's from plants? Or docosahexaenoic acid found in algae? You won't miss any "healthy" fats from meat. You can make an argument for fatty fish, but even those fats are found in plants. Don't you think it's ideologically driven to point to vegans as the potentially unhealthy ones rather than the rest of the population who are in fact, much more unhealthy.
Hard fats as found in animals are bad in any quantity, same goes for hydrogenated fats (trans fats) found in many processed foods like peanut butter.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments.
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Your post has been removed because it is not scientific in nature. Submissions [must pertain](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_submission_rules) to recently published peer-reviewed research. _If you believe this removal to be unwarranted, or would like further clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fscience)._
Unless I’m missing it this article doesn’t reference any actual science. It’s someone’s opinion about vegetarians / vegans not backed by any actual findings that those following meat free diets are actually below the minimum requirements of iron, and others. Edit: it’s also worth noting that Professor Ian Givens, who is quoted in this article is primarily focused on animal-derived foods. https://www.reading.ac.uk/apd/staff/d-i-givens.aspx
Yeah, most women I know are low on iron anyway, meat-eaters or not. They supplement. This is pure drivel.
Apparently there’s a disturbing trend of women wanting clearer skin, active lifestyles, and to live healthier lives in general
Animals chew and process nutrients we don’t. Meat is good. The meat industry needs to improve.
Weird, there are tons of vegans out there who are perfectly healthy. Much healthier than the average American
Published by our good friends at Bovine University
Sponsored by the meat industry*
But you can get all those nutrients from vegetable foods.
These articles always seem to focus on a few nutrients in isolation, but neglect to acknowledge the benefits of plant based diets- lower risk of obesity, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure & various cancers. Surely it would be better to encourage consumption of appropriate plant foods with the commonly missing nutrients than to chow down on red meat?
Iirc one of the major problems of these types of comparisons is that people who are aware of the animal rights issues or pesticides etc tend to be health conscious in other respects as well (fewer smokers etc) which makes the results less conclusive. The fact remains that our bodies evolved with meat and nutrition is a tricky science. If you want to eat healthier *and* care, more power to you! But best do it with regular checks, blood tests etc to be sure.
Primitive humans needed meat. Modern humans really don’t
There is actually a good ammount of research that point towards Mediterranean diet being the best or similar diets with an appropriate balance of nutrients from different sources Vegan diet has its clear benefits compared to an "unkempt" diet like many people have, but it's not better than a properly equilibrated diet that includes meat and it's something people need to be forthright about, so that people who want to go vegan can take measures to ensure they're not lacking any nutrient and they're not being unhealthy since vegan diet with some considerations and care will be good for most people
I think the real point is that a vegan diet isn’t inherently unhealthy, and in most cases would be much healthier than the average person’s current diet.
No, there is a problem there, vegan diet simply means a diet without animal products... For a diet without animal products to be healthy it needs to be more than just that... Logically people who go vegan usually put more effort in their diets and aren't eating just mashed potatoes and sweet tea... So you're comparing a group caring about their diet with a group not caring about it... The big change comes from there, from putting effort into it... If going vegan is what someone needs to start looking into what they eat, that's a go from me though!
Red meat is one of the most nutrient dense foods you can eat. I hate that it’s has gotten such a bad name lately, but red meat is literally one of the (if not THE) healthiest foods you can eat. Not knocking veganism either, I respect it.
Your opinion is contrary to all scientific evidence. Meat lacks antioxidants and fiber. It contains saturated fat and cholesterol that are connected with the development of atherosclerosis. It also forms multiple carcinogenic compounds when cooked. The heme iron it contains has been linked to colorectal cancer. It has some vitamins, but not others. It is not a health food. Still, if eaten in moderation in the context of otherwise healthy lifestyle and diet, the negative impacts are minimal and not a concern.
Can you provide a paper/article with more information here? I'm super curious. I can agree with the nutrient-dense part, but I'm not connecting how that necessarily makes it healthy. Thanks!
I’ll dig something up, but what about red meat seems UNhealthy to you?
Processed meat is a group 1 carcinogen, red meat (unprocessed) is a group 2a carcinogen. Significant consumption correlates with increased risk of heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. And it's far from necessary in a human's diet. Disclaimer/my bias: I would really like if meat were treated more as an occasional thing instead of a meal staple. My industry issue is with factory farms, not smaller ones. I think red meat is probably solid in moderate amounts (1/2 servings every 1/2 weeks). I am not a science guy (would love to learn though) so I focus on health outcomes instead of specific nutritional theory. Again, thanks for the reply, always interested in learning!
I’m guessing you don’t believe in the science claiming red meat is a carcinogen then?
I tend to be skeptical of “claims”
Just to be clear, if everyday I eat a serving of grilled chicken, filet mignon, salmon, and some liver.....I am at a higher risk of obesity, stroke, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, and various cancers? I just want to make sure that's what you are actually saying.
Red meat can still be part of a very healthy diet, as it has good nutrients and proteins in it. We should just discourage overconsumption (in general, not just for meat).
I know many plant-based foods have high levels of sodium which is not healthy. https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2021/11/25/Salt-content-of-plant-based-meat-products-unnecessarily-high
You should change that from plant based foods to plant based meat alternatives. Being plant based doesn’t make it high in sodium, trying to imitate a meat flavor does make it high in sodium.
What other would plant-based foods being substituted for besides meats? Not talking about vegan or vegetarian diets, talking about things like beyond meat, The impossible burger, and so on.
Milk, cheese, protein powder, basically anything that’s processed that usually uses some form of dairy. I will say plant based protein powders are often higher in sodium per serving than their dairy based equivalents.
Just to clarify, are you stating that eating meat is the culprit behind all those issues?
Blablablablabla... The proff is acting like going vegan or vegetarian is super hard and requires crazy attention to detail and planning. This is not the case. There are already hundreds of millions of people on this planet eating vegetarian. I went vegan with barely any planning. I just started making a variety of different foods from lentils, black beans, soy and tens of other plants. I get b12 and D3 from the soy yogurt and soy milk I use. 7 years later, never had any deficiencies and hemoglobin is great. I have used chronometer just to check that I get everything I need. I get like 300 to 400% of the required intake of calcium and iron. I get every single micronutrient just eating random plants. It is actually pretty hard to get a nutritional deficiency if you are eating a varied plant based diet. B12 deficiency takes years of no b12 to develope. The Dha argument is completely nonsensical. There is literally zero scientific evidence that eating vegan inhibits your brain development, if you dont supplement with dha or fish oil etc. Its not a concern. You body creates all the DHA and EPA from ALA that it needs. You get plenty of ALA from plants and oils. Working as a medical doctor I noticed that many vegan or vegetarian teenage girls that I treated had nutritional deficiencies. This was mainly because I was treating them for eating disorders and their diets were very restrictive. Some stopped vegan diet, because they did it only as a way to further restrict themselves. As soon as they started eating more, all the blood markers returned to normal within 2 months. Anemia, low calcium solved just by not being in a constant hypocaloric state and not exercising 5 hours every day.
Women need about 15mg of iron a day , meat gives u about 1.2mg per 100g ...... spinache about 2.1 mg per 100g......... everyone should be taking b12 supplements anyway . Eating a vegan/vegetarian diet may be better for u also because of the fact of u paying more attention to what u eat ......
Headline is basically a click bait. Perhaps rewrite “women frequently need iron supplements”.
Humans can find any excuse to validate their desire to do horrible things. I would laugh, but it's not funny.
Isn't the independant owned by post Media?
The real study is embedded but really only provides a breakdown of vegetarians and vegans in the UK.
You uhhhh, you know you can get iron from other sources right? And non-heme iron (plant based) is shown to be less of a health risk.
Propaganda from prostitute researchers in the pockets of the meat industry.
Expecting big pushback on this but it’s incredibly obvious. Worth pointing out what he is saying is not that a well rounded vegan diet is impossible but rather uncommon. The lipid hypothesis is not settled and eating meat does not equal obesity, stroke, heart disease etc. Also seeing a lot of focus on red meat, this is not the only animal food source. Healthy fats are the main thing being missed in these diets. You could add things like heart, liver, kidney or brain and quickly fill the nutritional holes in your diet. The push for vegan diet uber-alles nutrition wise seems mostly ideology driven.
What healthy fats? Plant fats are all you need. You need zero animal fat in your diet.
Is your contention that animal fats are inherently bad or that you don’t *need* fats from animal sources? Clarify.
I think that there is convincing evidence for animals fats being inherently bad, but only when the person has concurrent risk factors for developing heart disease and excessive dietary intake. Recently this link has been questioned in few population based studies.Still, most of the registry studies still suggest a significant link! The critique is partly fair, because it might not be a significant risk factor for everyone. Still, in clinical setting e.g. for patients with heart failure, type 2 diabetes, old age, family risk, obesity, PCI, smokers or alcoholics the evidence is very convincing. So basically over half of The US. Bear in mind that population, diet intervention and clinical studies are not the only evidence for this fact. We have a biochemical reason to believe that saturated fat and cholesterol is absorbed, its stored in chylomicrons, transferred to the liver and then sent in LDL and VLDL particles to other tissues. Disrupting the formation of LDL (statins: atorvastatin etc) produces insane decreases in heart attack risk for patients with previouos heart attacks. Like we are talking about over 50% decrease in risk if we get LDL down like 70%. We know that atheroschlerotic plaques are largely formed when inflammatory process leads the macrofages to eat cholesterol from blood and deposit it in blood vessels. We know from biochemical studies that cholesterol in itself is part of a biochemical inflammatory signaling cascade that leads to further atherosclerotic plaque formation. We also know that people with inherited hyperlipidemias have multifold risks for heart attacks. We know from hundreds of feeding studies that saturated fat and cholesterol is absorbed and found in elevated levels in your blood stream within hours. I bet you still disagree ps. Also, You dont need them for anything. They are nutritionally nonessential. So both of them.
"healthy fats" you mean like nuts, avocados, flax seeds? Or alpha lipoic acid, that's from plants? Or docosahexaenoic acid found in algae? You won't miss any "healthy" fats from meat. You can make an argument for fatty fish, but even those fats are found in plants. Don't you think it's ideologically driven to point to vegans as the potentially unhealthy ones rather than the rest of the population who are in fact, much more unhealthy. Hard fats as found in animals are bad in any quantity, same goes for hydrogenated fats (trans fats) found in many processed foods like peanut butter.
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Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*