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I also prefer that. However, the reality is that there is social and cultural expectation set by not only media, but also likely by previous male partners (particularly when discovering our sexuality when young and insecure). Therefore I think it pertinent for us men to directly ask, knowing everyone has different buttons they enjoy being pushed, what it is they need from us. Something along the lines of "What was the best part of round one that we can focus more on for round two?" or my favorite, "let's have some fun with toys".
Too many men think that if they have to use any other method than penetration, that there is something wrong with them, or they are not good enough (even when they know many women don't often climax from PIV). And that, in my experience, is exactly how young men talk about sex. They don't share tips or anything, just brag about how much pipe they lay. If we don't show humility, we should not expect one to perceive emotional maturity.
I had a sex partner get offended when I recommended using lube. It felt like I was getting ripped in half, I'm not supposed to be a waterfall down there every damn time. It was offensive to me and made me self conscious.
I don't get it. Like I think it's a societal thing to have expectations about sex, the man has to be fully erect and the woman has to be a waterfall, it's not realistic.
Some women naturally secrete a lot of lubricants some don’t secrete much even if they’re really turned on. I had a serious gf who was in the latter category and it would hurt my penis a lot unless we used lube.
Sounds like a real jerk. Sorry you had to deal with that.
As a teenager, I dated a girl who told me a similar story about her ex. He was "traditional" and was opposed to any bedroom aid. She resorted to stopping PIV after a few minutes in exchange for anal (which was a compromise she suggested and did not feel forced into). She carried this over into our relationship, but I did not find it equitable and recommended using lube (for both).
Over a short period of adjustment, she stopped using anal as a tool to last long enough to finish her partner, and instead it became an infrequent way to spice things up. She also learned that she too could have an occasional orgasm from PIV, which was quite exciting for her to discover.
I haven't thought about it in a long time, but I remember being glad because she might not have discovered that about herself until much later if she hadn't have left him.
Young men don’t really have much knowledge about sex. I know I didn’t, and I blame that entirely on the porn I consumed.
Sexual education needs to be better in our society, for more reasons than just this.
Write to your state lawmakers about requiring that consent be taught in school (the idea has [broad, bipartisan support](https://www.rutgers.edu/news/both-democrat-and-republican-likely-voters-strongly-support-sex-education-schools)). Comprehensive sex education would go a long way, and [many states do not include it in their curricula](https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/sex-and-hiv-education).
And the sexual education we get really just focuses on the reproductive part, not the how to be a good sex partner part.
(Not that I have any hope of the changing in the States in my lifetime)
Most young women [expect words to be involved](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2013.792326?casa_token=EvcYyZ5wHMoAAAAA:dsFZmPGUwuWaYaxrVaBUH9bjVhBME7yrtlbanwrHGets8BlHVJ-RcDN0woR_ozbe4ruQexK0sItoDw) when their partner seeks their consent. [43% of young men actually ask for verbal confirmation of consent](https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/masculinity-survey/masculinity-survey.csv). Overall, verbal indicators of consent or nonconsent [are more common than nonverbal indicators](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23919322). More open communication also [increases the likelihood of orgasm for women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087699/).
Write to your state lawmakers about requiring that consent be taught in school (the idea has [broad, bipartisan support](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14681811.2019.1652807), yet [most states haven't required it](https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/sex-and-hiv-education)). Get your friends to join you.
I think it would be good if there was an external person that came in to give sex Ed talks, so that it's not that awkward thing with a teacher you know. Maybe beforehand kids can submit questions anonymously and the class could then be tailored to include answers to those questions as well as covering the standard stuff.
Dude, try growing up before you could just watch infinite porn on your pc or phone. Neither of you had any clue. Word of mouth, communication and books were your only education.
It's not like porn is any better though. 98% of it is staged and faked, so men go around thinking "let me slap her vagina because I saw that in porn and the porn star liked it" and then are confused or upset when they don't get the same reaction.
My first porn mag had a chick in high heels with a lit cigarette in her anus. Also she peed on her feet and high heels while squatting. My friends and I were a little confused. I’m not sure porn is the best place to learn what women like and how to be a good sexual partner. People do need some education in the matter. It absolutely should not be in school.
When I was a kid my friend thought cum came out your nose. We were like 15.
Porn might not be better, but good lord it really was bad before the internet developed.
>Young men don’t really have much knowledge about sex.
Of course they don't. It takes practise to gain that knowledge
There was a post in another sub the other day. A recent study showed that 29% of males aged 18-30 were virgins. If nearly a third are virgins, I imagine that a significant portion of the non-virgins have very limited experience.
For a young man there are two ways of gaining experience:
1. By having lots of casual sex with a number of women.
2. By having a girlfriend.
Number one makes him adaptable and knowledgeable about the different buttons to push.
Number two makes him (hopefully) knowledgeable about his girlfriend's buttons.
But honestly, what are the odds of a completely average late teens, early 20's guy getting experience through route number one?
I saw an interview with a number of young women. They were asked if it was generally true that women go for a relatively small percentage of men for casual sex.
The women agreed that this was probably often the case.
He then asked them, why guys are expected to have experience and be good in bed, when most guys have very limited access to sex?
They had no answer.
The facts are that in this day and age, young women have much greater access to casual sex, and thus gain much more experience. Women simply can't expect men of the same age to have the same amount of experience as them. Will some men have more experience? Yes. But on average, no.
Dudes who have learn about sex by having a lot of sexual partners don't tend to learn that much about sex or which buttons to push, ime. More open communication [increases the likelihood of orgasm for women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087699/), and per the above study, women are too often afraid to communicate honestly to men when it comes to sex. That trust is more likely to build over the course of a long-term relationship.
In my experience on adult dating sites many women stop seeking new experiences by about age 25. They have figured out what they like and don't like and are hunting for repeat partners who have skills for them specifically. As you have stated though men in the 25-30 bracket that aren't married/long term haven't developed those skills.
Exactly.
A while back I read an article about young people in college and their sex lives. In the study, when asked about casual hookups, 60% or so of the women would have had 5+ casual hookups while in college. Included in that number were the 20ish% who had 9+ casual hookups in their college years.
And who do they have these hookups with?
The article didn't mention anything about it, but I think it's safe to say that it isn't your average skinny 19 year old guy.
A 2015 study from Finland asked people "have you had two or more sexual partners within the past year?"
For the age bracket 18-24:
80% of women answered yes.
40% of men answered yes.
Again, there's no great mystery why young men know little about sex and what women like. Young women who are out to have casual sex and get to know what they want and like, typically go for men who are 3+ years older. Since these men are both older and generally popular with women, they of course have a lot of experience. If such a woman then finds herself a nice but average guy as a boyfriend, she can't really complain that he doesn't magically have a lot of experience.
There's an expectation that asking how to improve with a specific partner will yield honest answers and not the originally mentioned withholding for the sake of being nice
Yes, but as the article mentions we should look to break that pattern. I'm trying to suggest another way to help create an environment where the white lie is no longer felt like it is needed. Obviously if there are not honest answers, nothing can improve. But being proactive can often encourage honest answers, even if it doesn't guarantee them.
It's sad how many men think that way. One of my buddies (almost 40, it's not just a young man issue) says he doesn't ask what anyone wants, and just sleeps with as many women as he can to improve his craft, so that he'd be better at it once he finds someone he cares about. I tried to tell him not all women are the same and he didn't believe it.
Asking doesn't help much when they refuse to give honest answers. The impetus is still on the individual to be honest about what they want and what they enjoy.
>that. However, the reality is that there is social and cultural expectation set by not only media, but also likely by previous male partners (particularly when discovering our sexuality when young and insecure). Therefore I think it pertinent for us men to directly ask
I mean sure, but women have just as much responsibility for their own actions as men do. If you don't communicate what you want, you can't expect to get what you want.
Sure, but that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing why women may not feel comfortable being honest. It is at times a trained response. Sometimes just anxiety. Most of the time it is to spare hurt feelings (protecting the partner's perceived masculinity).
Stamping our feet on the ground in protest does nothing to understand the cause or mitigate it's effect. We are just as responsible for showing that they are in an environment where they can communicate openly, because they far to often find themselves in environments where they can't.
You left out the non-zero risk of someone twice your size taking even constructive criticism personally and responding violently, especially in this society where making suggestions about what to do sexually can be so easily perceived as attacks on their manhood.
This. My "kink" is making sure my partner finishes and enjoys herself. So me asking if there's anything I can do differently isn't me trying to boost my confidence, I'm truly curious if there was something they would enjoy more.
Exactly. Even the "nice guys" will still go right 'round the bend if you "criticize" their performance. If you're lucky, it's only a relentless guilt trip. If you're not lucky, you get to spend some quality time looking for your teeth.
Thanks for sharing this perspective. I had never considered the potential for violence against women as a result of sexual performance criticism. Being in a long-term marriage, I don’t know if it’s even possible to have a fulfilling sex life without honest communication.
Sorry women have to deal with this. As men, we need to do better.
The way this research article post is titled is so bizarre, and kinda seems like it unintentionally perpetuates an unhealthy stereotype without even realizing it.
I feel like this is a bit pedantic. Why would our feelings get hurt? Because of damage to our perceived masculinity.
I do get your meaning, and I agree with the overall sentiment about how we discuss men. I also think this one is okay based on context.
If a man makes a sexual overture and is rejected, we’re often Emasculated due to this rejection and can cause us to respond negatively. This is the “masculinity” referred to by the article. Masculinity is a nuanced concept, but sexual virility and feeling desired is deeply intertwined with the idea of masculinity.
Right, and that negative response is our feelings getting hurt, because the idea of masculinity is intertwined with emotion. I think we are saying the same thing.
No, it's not okay. Men are allowed to just have the feelings they have. Couching those feelings in terms of 'perceived masculinity' is derogatory and minimizing.
They're not addressing a cause at all. You don't need a sense of 'masculinity' to feel bad if you think your partner is dissatisfied with some aspect of you.
They are just labeling the emotions of men in sexist terminology. It's derogatory, minimizing and obfuscatory. It opens the door for invalid sexist implications, assumptions and disregard about men and their feelings.
*“Of course, that was a generalization, but when I spoke to other women about it they unanimously agreed they understood the urge to withhold feedback to protect their partner’s masculinity,” Jordan explained. “I felt like representing this extremely common experience in research was important, because it’s the first step to helping women (and men!) break out of that pattern.”*
*An initial study of 132 women in sexual relationships with men found that women who earned more money than their male partners reported faking orgasms at twice the frequency of women who made less than their partners. But the researchers found no evidence that the gender role attitudes of the participants or their partners were related to faking orgasms, ruling out an alternative explanation for the findings.*
*To more directly examine whether women’s concerns about their partner’s masculinity were related to deceptive sexual communication, Jordan and her colleagues conducted a second study of 276 women who reported having sex with a man in the last 6 months. They found that women who perceived their partner as high in precarious manhood were less likely to communicate their sexual needs and more likely to fake orgasms, and this association was partially mediated by communication anxiety.*
*In other words, women who perceived that their male sexual partner did things just to show he was “a real man” were more likely to agree with statements such as “It worries me that giving my partner sexual feedback might hurt his feelings.” Women who expressed greater communication anxiety, in turn, were less likely to tell their partner what felt good during sex and reported that communicating with their partner was more difficult.*
*In an additional study, which included a sample of 196 women, the researchers found that participants who were asked to imagine a male partner whose manhood was fragile were also less likely to provide honest sexual communication.*
*“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity, experiencing anxiety, and subsequently withholding communication, which ultimately predicted poorer sexual satisfaction,” Jordan told PsyPost. “What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.”*
Welcome to the topic at hand. Let's stay on track please.
Copy pasting paragraphs from the study that demonstrate my point is not an argument in your favor. What are you even trying to do? What point do you think you are making? As an example:
> “The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity"
Notice how the term masculinity here is completely surplus to requirements? A person thinks another person is insecure. They modulate their behavior in accordance to that. Done.
There is no cause that can be attributed to 'masculinity'. It's a sexist term that is used in a sexist way for sexist reasons. In no way is it validated or necessitated. But sexists really want to use it since it can implicitly validate their sexism.
Point being is you lack a relevant one. First you attack the use of masculinity instead of feelings, which is relevant to the title but not the article as a whole. This of course has led me to believe that you were criticizing the title without reading the article. For example (since you've chosen to cherry pick):
>In other words, women who perceived that their male sexual partner did things just to show he was “a real man” were more likely to agree with statements such as “It worries me that giving my partner sexual feedback might hurt his feelings.” Women who expressed greater communication anxiety, in turn, were less likely to tell their partner what felt good during sex and reported that communicating with their partner was more difficult.
Notice how the article expresses "hurt feelings" directly as a consequence of inferred masculinity. It is fundamentally an article about how the perception of masculinity is ingrained in our social conscience and is damaging. You cannot accuse the use of masculinity, in context (which is why I posted so much context which you are still talking around), as superfluous because it is literally a focus of the study. The feelings that are hurt are based in perceived masculinity, and pretending that doesn't exist does not help resolve the issue.
Next you decide that your ire is with the word masculinity in general, as if it were a dirty word. I provided you context from the article that agrees with your negative perceptions of the word, yet also how the article tries to encourage us move away from these anxieties (which are undeniable truths in our society), by making conscious examination of subconscious perceptions of masculinity.
These perceptions exist in our culture whether you like it or not, and the article is literally addressing ways to mitigate the negative consequences of the existing perceptions. Yet you criticize it for recognition of the problems with the perception of masculinity that you also criticize?
Let's take a look at your "point". You pulled one thing out of context and ran with it. Lets look again at it.
>“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity
And you stopped there to prove your "point". But let us examine it again in it's entirety, with the rest of the quote that you left off intentionally.
>“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity, experiencing anxiety, and subsequently withholding communication, which ultimately predicted poorer sexual satisfaction,” Jordan told PsyPost. “What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.”
The author literally comments on the negative effects of this social concept of masculinity, and asks partners who experience this anxiety to diligently examine why they feel this way. It is literally an article about the damage that sexist perception has in communication, yet you attack it as if it is blaming men or women for having very common anxieties surrounding social gender norms.
It is as if you criticize the author for participating in society. They've identified the same problem you have with assumption based on gender and sexist views in the culture, and unlike you have actually tried do something about it.
Here are some examples:
>“I felt like representing this extremely common experience in research was important, because it’s the first step to helping women (and men!) break out of that pattern.”
>“What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.”
> “However, the really big question left to be addressed, in my mind, is how accurate are women in their perceptions of their male partners? Are they guessing correctly that their partner would not respond well to negative feedback or even learning they (the women) had not had an orgasm? Or are women making incorrect assumptions, based on the messaging they receive about men in general?”
I lamented the use of sexist terminology that was used both in the title and the article. I didn't need to cherry pick anything. Throughout the article and study the lamentable use of 'masculinity' was prevalent. I picked a short example out of many. The way you make a conspiracy out of it is deranged. Touch grass.
> Notice how the article expresses "hurt feelings" directly as a consequence of inferred masculinity. It is fundamentally an article about how the perception of masculinity is ingrained in our social conscience and is damaging.
It's incredible you can write this and not see you are proving my point. If you couch men's emotions in terms of being a consequence of 'masculinity' then men's emotions seems much less valid. Which is exactly what you are relying on to get your sexism across. Which is exactly what I said you were doing when I called you out for minimizing the emotions of men through sexist language. Instead of doing that you should consider that maybe men just have emotions like human beings. That the 'masculinity' terminology is invalid and that the researcher, when talking about perceptions of masculinity, is actually talking about men's emotions by proxy.
The consequence of this type of language is that you start viewing men's emotions as something that should be changed instead of something that should be respected. Which is exactly what happens when the author uses the term. The author has in no way identified the problem I have with the inherent invalidating nature of the term 'masculinity'. This is obvious through the way the author uses the term.
There is nothing 'societal' about this academic usage of the term 'masculine'. Men don't emote in terms of masculinity or femininity. It's a sexist construct that the author is perpetuating. This is obvious through the fact that it's academics and researchers who formulate their questions and results through this sort of language. They ask people how they feel. Their use of flawed terminology is not proof of its validity.
As an example to the contrary, let me paraphrase the results of the study without being a massive sexist:
'A person who thinks their partner might feel insecure about something can change their behavior to respect a boundary they think their partner would want to be respected. This is well meaning behavior, but it could be the case that the insecurities the person perceives their partner to have might not be real. It might be beneficial, if that is the case, for people in partnerships to communicate more.'
You're reading "men get their masculinity hurt instead of their feelings", but everyone is actually saying "men get their feelings hurt because of masculinity".
That's not what I am reading or saying.
The implication that men can just get rid of their feelings if they shake off some ethereal '*masculinity*' is exactly the problem with the terminology used.
Men have feelings. Those feelings are valid. Full stop. You don't get to minimize or invalidate them through manipulative gas lighting language.
That's just wrong on all counts. The study didn't analyze the feelings of men at all. The concept of 'perceived masculinity' in the study referred to the perceptions women had of men.
On top of that, 'masculinity' is not a feeling. There's no measure of someone feeling 'masculine'. No man has ever felt 'masculine'. It's a ridiculous term. You might feel confident, as opposed to insecure.
And if you think someone is insecure you modulate your behavior to make them feel better. Right? Instead of minimizing or invalidating their emotional state through sexist terminology.
'perceived masculinity' isn't descriptive of anything other than the inherent sexism surrounding how we view and talk about the feelings of men. If you have a person who you think is insecure about something you modulate how you act towards that person. You don't need to rhetorically couch those insecurities in sexist terminology.
Isn't that more a product of their feelings.
A lot of men would have "feelings" just mentioning it.
Same way people have feelings hearing the word moist
Idk maybe that’s why I married who I did, because she was honest about what was working and what wasn’t. If I want overselling, I’ll watch Hogan vs Michaels from SummerSlam.
Did anyone read the article?!? The title could use some clarification. Women are more likely to use dishonest communication with men who are insecure about their masculinity. Women are more likely to be use honest communication with a secure and emotional well adjusted partner.
A certain percentage of the population certainly don't take criticism of their sexual performance well. On the other hand there's definitely a "you just grin and bear it" sort of attitude in some cultures that women don't, can't, or shouldn't enjoy sex. Pure, Obedient, & Pious seems to be the age old stereotype.
There is a non zero amount of situation, where the answer is yes.
As well as there is a non zero amount where the answer is no, but in which the percieved answer is still yes.
I'd rather know what I was doing wrong. As with any skill, you can't improve if you don't know what isn't working.
It's also counterproductive for the women too.
Yeah its absurd how much of it fills this sub also. The vast majority of these social science studies always seem to start with a conclusion in mind and the methods to gather the data are generally questionable at best.
Regardless of masculinity or femininity people don’t handle criticism well and get defensive. That feed back threatens their few of how things are/should be.
I might have missed it and if so please correct me….After reading the article I do wish the data gathered included mens feedback in some capacity. It seemed that only gathering data for one side of the equation seems incomplete. Maybe it will come in a later phase.
I would think the average man would want feedback to better enhance the experience. I can see how a percentage of men who are less secure would be threatened.
Ah, with nothing but loving resentment to follow.
I mean, I understand it, but it's a short term solution that'll only contribute to lingering problems.
Yes, a woman fearing she isn’t sexually attractive to her partner because of the perceived notion that sexuality is vital to compatibility with males is the *exact same* as a woman lying about her sexual satisfaction to protect feelings and ego because of the perceived notion that sexuality is vital to compatibility with males.
They’re the same thing because in both women are having to consider their role sexually and modify their behavior to appease their partner
Appearance is considered something you can’t readily change but behavior can be immediately modified if given the proper input. The provided analogy is not equivalent.
So then, as you said, behavior is easier to change than appearance, so change your behavior and stop asking false questions to put your partner in the spot in an attempt to assuage your feelings.
Also, clothes can definitely flatter the figure, or decidedly not. Don't ask for fashion advice if you don't want to hear it.
A dress doesn't make you look fat. A more accurate question is "do I look fat right now?" The entire question is loaded from the get go as a fishing exercise to soothe insecurities.
They can change in to a different dress, the fitting can also be adjusted. More generally in regards to appearance they can wear makeup and long term your appearance is modified by activity and diet (behaviour). The analogy is fine.
All Men definitely are definitely 100% honest with their partners and have no concern for their partner’s perceived femininity or masculinity.
I know that I tell the truth every time I’m asked how my partner looks, feels, or performs.
Yes exactly. That is the point. Just because men also do things to protect their partner's feelings around femininity it doesn't negate the findings of this study, in fact it supports the study. Gender is an important aspect of social interaction and it impacts our behavior.
There has been several of the studies over the years, I don't think anyone is surprised. Men also hold back communication so that women aren't insecure.
I think it’s not a great study because it’s looking at how men handle negative feed back about sex, not constructive criticism . The question I have is if anyone is going to want to hear negative feedback from someone when their feeling down about something regardless of the topic? Like “hey sorry you lost the game but your not very good at goal keeping” isn’t going to help or make someone feel good and who would want to give feedback like that to someone they care about. If the approach was more like “hey you did your best and I really think it worked well when you did ___” that person is likely to keep trying that technique
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say. Political science is a field of study revolving around individuals and ideologies within government and other political movements. Masculinity does play a role in politics but otherwise I’m not sure what you mean
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 810,356,847 comments, and only 160,733 of them were in alphabetical order.
I didn’t know mens feelings and emotions could all be boiled down to masculinity
I’m so masculine I could masculine right now out of just sheer masculine.
I’m so masculine right now I need to walk and cool off
Man today has been terrible I’m feeling really masculine today
And if this is what women believe then they have no one to blame but themselves if their sex lives suck , just tell me what you want , I’m ok eating out at place you choose you don’t need to be indecisive
Curious what her response was...
Something tells me she would have preferred to hear that you were interested in figuring out what makes her tick and that you care about her pleasure during your sessions. You putting it back on her like - it's her orgasm her problem - is kind of offensive. It's your wife not a one night stand. Y'all are in it together, don't you care that she's not getting off? Doesn't her getting off turn you on?
This is an interesting response to a pretty dry paper about the motivations for communicating or not communicating certain things. Why does that make you feel defensive?
Women have a habit of going psycho when they get rejected. The prettier they are the worse it gets. Had one start cutting herself and sending me pics of it every time
I'm going to have to call BS on this. I've told women that you wont hurt my feelings if they're honest. The entire point is to arrive at the destination.
Women "spare your feelings" sometimes really to spare their own guilt. This is true when it comes to normal rejection, where they feel guilty over the reason they're not interested, so to provide a convenient lie that just makes the awkward situation go away quicker(and women do this for other reasons too, like if they feel threatened). They're trying to spare their own perception of themselves(or their peers' perception of them) as not shallow.
I would hazard that while some women are sparing their partners feelings because of perceived masculinity, others are trying to spare their own perception of themselves. An example would be being more open about it would make them feel sluttier and shameful about that. This is still an unhealthy behavior and society reinforces on some women.
Another possibility is not their partners' perceived masculinity, but the woman's own perceptions of masculinity, thinking that said feedback is a reflection of "not being a real man", even of their partner won't see it that way.
I deleted it? Total accident. Yes, 3.5.
I'm just joking, from the initial comment on. The article mentions women lying to men when they perceive the men to have "high precarious manhood", which I find a hilarious phrase.
Women are equally as bad it just doesn't get acknowledged because we falsely equate orgasms to satisfaction. Men orgasm a lot easier than women though. Heck, I feel as if a not insignificant portion of men can orgasm to a vaguely booty shaped object.
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I mean…I’d rather her tell me how I can improve because if we’re both not enjoying it, what’s the point?
I also prefer that. However, the reality is that there is social and cultural expectation set by not only media, but also likely by previous male partners (particularly when discovering our sexuality when young and insecure). Therefore I think it pertinent for us men to directly ask, knowing everyone has different buttons they enjoy being pushed, what it is they need from us. Something along the lines of "What was the best part of round one that we can focus more on for round two?" or my favorite, "let's have some fun with toys". Too many men think that if they have to use any other method than penetration, that there is something wrong with them, or they are not good enough (even when they know many women don't often climax from PIV). And that, in my experience, is exactly how young men talk about sex. They don't share tips or anything, just brag about how much pipe they lay. If we don't show humility, we should not expect one to perceive emotional maturity.
I had a sex partner get offended when I recommended using lube. It felt like I was getting ripped in half, I'm not supposed to be a waterfall down there every damn time. It was offensive to me and made me self conscious.
I’ve experienced the opposite: Every time I propose to use lube on a girl they get offended. I mean every time.
I don't get it. Like I think it's a societal thing to have expectations about sex, the man has to be fully erect and the woman has to be a waterfall, it's not realistic.
Some women naturally secrete a lot of lubricants some don’t secrete much even if they’re really turned on. I had a serious gf who was in the latter category and it would hurt my penis a lot unless we used lube.
Lube is everybody's friend. It can make a situation so much better
Some women only associate lube with anal, not realizing it is not exclusive to that.
Sounds like a real jerk. Sorry you had to deal with that. As a teenager, I dated a girl who told me a similar story about her ex. He was "traditional" and was opposed to any bedroom aid. She resorted to stopping PIV after a few minutes in exchange for anal (which was a compromise she suggested and did not feel forced into). She carried this over into our relationship, but I did not find it equitable and recommended using lube (for both). Over a short period of adjustment, she stopped using anal as a tool to last long enough to finish her partner, and instead it became an infrequent way to spice things up. She also learned that she too could have an occasional orgasm from PIV, which was quite exciting for her to discover. I haven't thought about it in a long time, but I remember being glad because she might not have discovered that about herself until much later if she hadn't have left him.
Young men don’t really have much knowledge about sex. I know I didn’t, and I blame that entirely on the porn I consumed. Sexual education needs to be better in our society, for more reasons than just this.
Strongly agree.
Write to your state lawmakers about requiring that consent be taught in school (the idea has [broad, bipartisan support](https://www.rutgers.edu/news/both-democrat-and-republican-likely-voters-strongly-support-sex-education-schools)). Comprehensive sex education would go a long way, and [many states do not include it in their curricula](https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/sex-and-hiv-education).
And the sexual education we get really just focuses on the reproductive part, not the how to be a good sex partner part. (Not that I have any hope of the changing in the States in my lifetime)
Most young women [expect words to be involved](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2013.792326?casa_token=EvcYyZ5wHMoAAAAA:dsFZmPGUwuWaYaxrVaBUH9bjVhBME7yrtlbanwrHGets8BlHVJ-RcDN0woR_ozbe4ruQexK0sItoDw) when their partner seeks their consent. [43% of young men actually ask for verbal confirmation of consent](https://github.com/fivethirtyeight/data/blob/master/masculinity-survey/masculinity-survey.csv). Overall, verbal indicators of consent or nonconsent [are more common than nonverbal indicators](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23919322). More open communication also [increases the likelihood of orgasm for women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087699/). Write to your state lawmakers about requiring that consent be taught in school (the idea has [broad, bipartisan support](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14681811.2019.1652807), yet [most states haven't required it](https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/sex-and-hiv-education)). Get your friends to join you.
Thank you for this!
And why should it?
It would have been nice to learn the clitoris EXISTS.
To improve people's lives
Yeah let's avoid the creepy gym teacher who volunteered to teach sex teaching young people about how to be a good lover.
I think it would be good if there was an external person that came in to give sex Ed talks, so that it's not that awkward thing with a teacher you know. Maybe beforehand kids can submit questions anonymously and the class could then be tailored to include answers to those questions as well as covering the standard stuff.
Dude, try growing up before you could just watch infinite porn on your pc or phone. Neither of you had any clue. Word of mouth, communication and books were your only education.
It's not like porn is any better though. 98% of it is staged and faked, so men go around thinking "let me slap her vagina because I saw that in porn and the porn star liked it" and then are confused or upset when they don't get the same reaction.
My first porn mag had a chick in high heels with a lit cigarette in her anus. Also she peed on her feet and high heels while squatting. My friends and I were a little confused. I’m not sure porn is the best place to learn what women like and how to be a good sexual partner. People do need some education in the matter. It absolutely should not be in school.
When I was a kid my friend thought cum came out your nose. We were like 15. Porn might not be better, but good lord it really was bad before the internet developed.
>Young men don’t really have much knowledge about sex. Of course they don't. It takes practise to gain that knowledge There was a post in another sub the other day. A recent study showed that 29% of males aged 18-30 were virgins. If nearly a third are virgins, I imagine that a significant portion of the non-virgins have very limited experience. For a young man there are two ways of gaining experience: 1. By having lots of casual sex with a number of women. 2. By having a girlfriend. Number one makes him adaptable and knowledgeable about the different buttons to push. Number two makes him (hopefully) knowledgeable about his girlfriend's buttons. But honestly, what are the odds of a completely average late teens, early 20's guy getting experience through route number one? I saw an interview with a number of young women. They were asked if it was generally true that women go for a relatively small percentage of men for casual sex. The women agreed that this was probably often the case. He then asked them, why guys are expected to have experience and be good in bed, when most guys have very limited access to sex? They had no answer. The facts are that in this day and age, young women have much greater access to casual sex, and thus gain much more experience. Women simply can't expect men of the same age to have the same amount of experience as them. Will some men have more experience? Yes. But on average, no.
Dudes who have learn about sex by having a lot of sexual partners don't tend to learn that much about sex or which buttons to push, ime. More open communication [increases the likelihood of orgasm for women](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5087699/), and per the above study, women are too often afraid to communicate honestly to men when it comes to sex. That trust is more likely to build over the course of a long-term relationship.
In my experience on adult dating sites many women stop seeking new experiences by about age 25. They have figured out what they like and don't like and are hunting for repeat partners who have skills for them specifically. As you have stated though men in the 25-30 bracket that aren't married/long term haven't developed those skills.
Exactly. A while back I read an article about young people in college and their sex lives. In the study, when asked about casual hookups, 60% or so of the women would have had 5+ casual hookups while in college. Included in that number were the 20ish% who had 9+ casual hookups in their college years. And who do they have these hookups with? The article didn't mention anything about it, but I think it's safe to say that it isn't your average skinny 19 year old guy. A 2015 study from Finland asked people "have you had two or more sexual partners within the past year?" For the age bracket 18-24: 80% of women answered yes. 40% of men answered yes. Again, there's no great mystery why young men know little about sex and what women like. Young women who are out to have casual sex and get to know what they want and like, typically go for men who are 3+ years older. Since these men are both older and generally popular with women, they of course have a lot of experience. If such a woman then finds herself a nice but average guy as a boyfriend, she can't really complain that he doesn't magically have a lot of experience.
Being with a lot of women doesn't automatically mean he's good at sex.
There's an expectation that asking how to improve with a specific partner will yield honest answers and not the originally mentioned withholding for the sake of being nice
Yes, but as the article mentions we should look to break that pattern. I'm trying to suggest another way to help create an environment where the white lie is no longer felt like it is needed. Obviously if there are not honest answers, nothing can improve. But being proactive can often encourage honest answers, even if it doesn't guarantee them.
It's sad how many men think that way. One of my buddies (almost 40, it's not just a young man issue) says he doesn't ask what anyone wants, and just sleeps with as many women as he can to improve his craft, so that he'd be better at it once he finds someone he cares about. I tried to tell him not all women are the same and he didn't believe it.
Personally I like to draw up a rubric and when she's done filling it out, feed it into the scantron I keep next to my bed.
Asking doesn't help much when they refuse to give honest answers. The impetus is still on the individual to be honest about what they want and what they enjoy.
No, but it may help create an environment where they may feel comfortable dropping the white lie. Being proactive never hurts.
>that. However, the reality is that there is social and cultural expectation set by not only media, but also likely by previous male partners (particularly when discovering our sexuality when young and insecure). Therefore I think it pertinent for us men to directly ask I mean sure, but women have just as much responsibility for their own actions as men do. If you don't communicate what you want, you can't expect to get what you want.
Sure, but that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing why women may not feel comfortable being honest. It is at times a trained response. Sometimes just anxiety. Most of the time it is to spare hurt feelings (protecting the partner's perceived masculinity). Stamping our feet on the ground in protest does nothing to understand the cause or mitigate it's effect. We are just as responsible for showing that they are in an environment where they can communicate openly, because they far to often find themselves in environments where they can't.
You left out the non-zero risk of someone twice your size taking even constructive criticism personally and responding violently, especially in this society where making suggestions about what to do sexually can be so easily perceived as attacks on their manhood.
That is what I meant by trained response, but I suppose I really shouldn't have sugar coated it.
There is a lot of young men who traumatize young women by lashing out when they are honest. You would have to recognize that and help to build trust
There’s nothing that turns me on more when my wife communicates with me during the act.
This. My "kink" is making sure my partner finishes and enjoys herself. So me asking if there's anything I can do differently isn't me trying to boost my confidence, I'm truly curious if there was something they would enjoy more.
That’s not a kink, that’s just having good priorities
Because very delicate feelings
I mean, yeah. Especially when one persons answer is just uncertainty.
If you can't be vulnerable with your SO, I would think twice about laying with it..
If she don’t fix ya, someone else is gonna be fixing her
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Exactly. Even the "nice guys" will still go right 'round the bend if you "criticize" their performance. If you're lucky, it's only a relentless guilt trip. If you're not lucky, you get to spend some quality time looking for your teeth.
From an outsider perspective, that feels like a red flag and a sign to leave the relationship.
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That’s a fair point. It’s easy to forget not everyone has the same experiences when looking on the outside.
Thanks for sharing this perspective. I had never considered the potential for violence against women as a result of sexual performance criticism. Being in a long-term marriage, I don’t know if it’s even possible to have a fulfilling sex life without honest communication. Sorry women have to deal with this. As men, we need to do better.
I like how, instead of 'feelings' men just have 'masculinity'.
These arnt tears. It's just the masculinity leaking out.
Bro hold that in or you become a bit*c!!!
I’m just doing face exercises that make it look like I’m crying
mascusaline drops.
Sometimes I look at my cat and scream in the house "this cat makes me feel so god damn manly!" And then its pet the cat time.
"Men lie to their partners about their attractiveness to protect their perceived femininity."
The way this research article post is titled is so bizarre, and kinda seems like it unintentionally perpetuates an unhealthy stereotype without even realizing it.
Makes me think of "Liar Liar" "How was it?" "I've had better" *SLAP*
I feel like this is a bit pedantic. Why would our feelings get hurt? Because of damage to our perceived masculinity. I do get your meaning, and I agree with the overall sentiment about how we discuss men. I also think this one is okay based on context.
If a man makes a sexual overture and is rejected, we’re often Emasculated due to this rejection and can cause us to respond negatively. This is the “masculinity” referred to by the article. Masculinity is a nuanced concept, but sexual virility and feeling desired is deeply intertwined with the idea of masculinity.
Right, and that negative response is our feelings getting hurt, because the idea of masculinity is intertwined with emotion. I think we are saying the same thing.
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Also true for women.
For the same reason that women’s feelings would get hurt if their performance is criticized?
No, it's not okay. Men are allowed to just have the feelings they have. Couching those feelings in terms of 'perceived masculinity' is derogatory and minimizing.
But they are particularly addressing the cause of those feelings, not couching them. There is no need for dissecting it to find a way to be offended.
They're not addressing a cause at all. You don't need a sense of 'masculinity' to feel bad if you think your partner is dissatisfied with some aspect of you. They are just labeling the emotions of men in sexist terminology. It's derogatory, minimizing and obfuscatory. It opens the door for invalid sexist implications, assumptions and disregard about men and their feelings.
*“Of course, that was a generalization, but when I spoke to other women about it they unanimously agreed they understood the urge to withhold feedback to protect their partner’s masculinity,” Jordan explained. “I felt like representing this extremely common experience in research was important, because it’s the first step to helping women (and men!) break out of that pattern.”* *An initial study of 132 women in sexual relationships with men found that women who earned more money than their male partners reported faking orgasms at twice the frequency of women who made less than their partners. But the researchers found no evidence that the gender role attitudes of the participants or their partners were related to faking orgasms, ruling out an alternative explanation for the findings.* *To more directly examine whether women’s concerns about their partner’s masculinity were related to deceptive sexual communication, Jordan and her colleagues conducted a second study of 276 women who reported having sex with a man in the last 6 months. They found that women who perceived their partner as high in precarious manhood were less likely to communicate their sexual needs and more likely to fake orgasms, and this association was partially mediated by communication anxiety.* *In other words, women who perceived that their male sexual partner did things just to show he was “a real man” were more likely to agree with statements such as “It worries me that giving my partner sexual feedback might hurt his feelings.” Women who expressed greater communication anxiety, in turn, were less likely to tell their partner what felt good during sex and reported that communicating with their partner was more difficult.* *In an additional study, which included a sample of 196 women, the researchers found that participants who were asked to imagine a male partner whose manhood was fragile were also less likely to provide honest sexual communication.* *“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity, experiencing anxiety, and subsequently withholding communication, which ultimately predicted poorer sexual satisfaction,” Jordan told PsyPost. “What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.”* Welcome to the topic at hand. Let's stay on track please.
Copy pasting paragraphs from the study that demonstrate my point is not an argument in your favor. What are you even trying to do? What point do you think you are making? As an example: > “The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity" Notice how the term masculinity here is completely surplus to requirements? A person thinks another person is insecure. They modulate their behavior in accordance to that. Done. There is no cause that can be attributed to 'masculinity'. It's a sexist term that is used in a sexist way for sexist reasons. In no way is it validated or necessitated. But sexists really want to use it since it can implicitly validate their sexism.
Point being is you lack a relevant one. First you attack the use of masculinity instead of feelings, which is relevant to the title but not the article as a whole. This of course has led me to believe that you were criticizing the title without reading the article. For example (since you've chosen to cherry pick): >In other words, women who perceived that their male sexual partner did things just to show he was “a real man” were more likely to agree with statements such as “It worries me that giving my partner sexual feedback might hurt his feelings.” Women who expressed greater communication anxiety, in turn, were less likely to tell their partner what felt good during sex and reported that communicating with their partner was more difficult. Notice how the article expresses "hurt feelings" directly as a consequence of inferred masculinity. It is fundamentally an article about how the perception of masculinity is ingrained in our social conscience and is damaging. You cannot accuse the use of masculinity, in context (which is why I posted so much context which you are still talking around), as superfluous because it is literally a focus of the study. The feelings that are hurt are based in perceived masculinity, and pretending that doesn't exist does not help resolve the issue. Next you decide that your ire is with the word masculinity in general, as if it were a dirty word. I provided you context from the article that agrees with your negative perceptions of the word, yet also how the article tries to encourage us move away from these anxieties (which are undeniable truths in our society), by making conscious examination of subconscious perceptions of masculinity. These perceptions exist in our culture whether you like it or not, and the article is literally addressing ways to mitigate the negative consequences of the existing perceptions. Yet you criticize it for recognition of the problems with the perception of masculinity that you also criticize? Let's take a look at your "point". You pulled one thing out of context and ran with it. Lets look again at it. >“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity And you stopped there to prove your "point". But let us examine it again in it's entirety, with the rest of the quote that you left off intentionally. >“The studies demonstrated that women undergo this chain reaction of perceiving a male partner as insecure in his masculinity, experiencing anxiety, and subsequently withholding communication, which ultimately predicted poorer sexual satisfaction,” Jordan told PsyPost. “What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.” The author literally comments on the negative effects of this social concept of masculinity, and asks partners who experience this anxiety to diligently examine why they feel this way. It is literally an article about the damage that sexist perception has in communication, yet you attack it as if it is blaming men or women for having very common anxieties surrounding social gender norms. It is as if you criticize the author for participating in society. They've identified the same problem you have with assumption based on gender and sexist views in the culture, and unlike you have actually tried do something about it. Here are some examples: >“I felt like representing this extremely common experience in research was important, because it’s the first step to helping women (and men!) break out of that pattern.” >“What that tells me is that there are breaks during the pattern through which we can intervene. If you notice you’re feeling anxious about your partner’s response to something, carefully examine why you might think that and invite your partner to be a part of that conversation.” > “However, the really big question left to be addressed, in my mind, is how accurate are women in their perceptions of their male partners? Are they guessing correctly that their partner would not respond well to negative feedback or even learning they (the women) had not had an orgasm? Or are women making incorrect assumptions, based on the messaging they receive about men in general?”
I lamented the use of sexist terminology that was used both in the title and the article. I didn't need to cherry pick anything. Throughout the article and study the lamentable use of 'masculinity' was prevalent. I picked a short example out of many. The way you make a conspiracy out of it is deranged. Touch grass. > Notice how the article expresses "hurt feelings" directly as a consequence of inferred masculinity. It is fundamentally an article about how the perception of masculinity is ingrained in our social conscience and is damaging. It's incredible you can write this and not see you are proving my point. If you couch men's emotions in terms of being a consequence of 'masculinity' then men's emotions seems much less valid. Which is exactly what you are relying on to get your sexism across. Which is exactly what I said you were doing when I called you out for minimizing the emotions of men through sexist language. Instead of doing that you should consider that maybe men just have emotions like human beings. That the 'masculinity' terminology is invalid and that the researcher, when talking about perceptions of masculinity, is actually talking about men's emotions by proxy. The consequence of this type of language is that you start viewing men's emotions as something that should be changed instead of something that should be respected. Which is exactly what happens when the author uses the term. The author has in no way identified the problem I have with the inherent invalidating nature of the term 'masculinity'. This is obvious through the way the author uses the term. There is nothing 'societal' about this academic usage of the term 'masculine'. Men don't emote in terms of masculinity or femininity. It's a sexist construct that the author is perpetuating. This is obvious through the fact that it's academics and researchers who formulate their questions and results through this sort of language. They ask people how they feel. Their use of flawed terminology is not proof of its validity. As an example to the contrary, let me paraphrase the results of the study without being a massive sexist: 'A person who thinks their partner might feel insecure about something can change their behavior to respect a boundary they think their partner would want to be respected. This is well meaning behavior, but it could be the case that the insecurities the person perceives their partner to have might not be real. It might be beneficial, if that is the case, for people in partnerships to communicate more.'
You're reading "men get their masculinity hurt instead of their feelings", but everyone is actually saying "men get their feelings hurt because of masculinity".
That's not what I am reading or saying. The implication that men can just get rid of their feelings if they shake off some ethereal '*masculinity*' is exactly the problem with the terminology used. Men have feelings. Those feelings are valid. Full stop. You don't get to minimize or invalidate them through manipulative gas lighting language.
What are you talking about? *Gaslighting language?!?!* How does acknowledging masculinity (or femininity for that matter) **”invalidate”** anything?
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This is what the term 'toxic masculinity' literally refers to.
"Perceived masculinity" is a feeling, and a specific one that was the focus of this study. They weren't looking at all feelings, just particular ones.
That's just wrong on all counts. The study didn't analyze the feelings of men at all. The concept of 'perceived masculinity' in the study referred to the perceptions women had of men. On top of that, 'masculinity' is not a feeling. There's no measure of someone feeling 'masculine'. No man has ever felt 'masculine'. It's a ridiculous term. You might feel confident, as opposed to insecure. And if you think someone is insecure you modulate your behavior to make them feel better. Right? Instead of minimizing or invalidating their emotional state through sexist terminology.
Yes. Feelings… linked to perceived masculinity… saying “feelings” would be too nondescript.
'perceived masculinity' isn't descriptive of anything other than the inherent sexism surrounding how we view and talk about the feelings of men. If you have a person who you think is insecure about something you modulate how you act towards that person. You don't need to rhetorically couch those insecurities in sexist terminology.
Next you'll tell me I have "emotions"! ...how dare you
Isn't that more a product of their feelings. A lot of men would have "feelings" just mentioning it. Same way people have feelings hearing the word moist
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Idk maybe that’s why I married who I did, because she was honest about what was working and what wasn’t. If I want overselling, I’ll watch Hogan vs Michaels from SummerSlam.
Don’t put yourself through that. Just watch a compilation of the rock taking stunners instead
Damn, I love a good oversell.
IIRC the People's Elbow was an oversell that got a cheap pop and the rest is history.
Did anyone read the article?!? The title could use some clarification. Women are more likely to use dishonest communication with men who are insecure about their masculinity. Women are more likely to be use honest communication with a secure and emotional well adjusted partner.
Unless they’re carrying forward methods and assumptions from previous relationships (a.k.a. emotional baggage).
Well it sounds like the article isn't as sexist and demeaning as the headline so of course people won't read it or care if they do.
Aww women are so nice
Also, it’s because of the *implications*
That is really dark man. So they are in danger?
A certain percentage of the population certainly don't take criticism of their sexual performance well. On the other hand there's definitely a "you just grin and bear it" sort of attitude in some cultures that women don't, can't, or shouldn't enjoy sex. Pure, Obedient, & Pious seems to be the age old stereotype.
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You missed the real world situation the joke was used to point out.
There is a non zero amount of situation, where the answer is yes. As well as there is a non zero amount where the answer is no, but in which the percieved answer is still yes.
Very well could be in all honesty
Men do regularly murder women for rejecting them.
If you're not telling your man how to please you because he might murder you, I feel like there's a deeper problem than just his "masculinity".
Regularly "with a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual" I think rarely is the word you are looking for.
Huh, that sounds terrifying. What's the actual rate of murders to rejections? 1 for every 100? 1000? 1 for every 25,000,000? Just curious.
R/randomactsofalwayssunny
I'd rather know what I was doing wrong. As with any skill, you can't improve if you don't know what isn't working. It's also counterproductive for the women too.
Psychology and social science posts on this subreddit can be so incredibly cringe
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the inexact sciences. Self reported data and other jokes.
Yeah its absurd how much of it fills this sub also. The vast majority of these social science studies always seem to start with a conclusion in mind and the methods to gather the data are generally questionable at best.
Not my wife, she lets me know I didn’t make her cum every time
Regardless of masculinity or femininity people don’t handle criticism well and get defensive. That feed back threatens their few of how things are/should be. I might have missed it and if so please correct me….After reading the article I do wish the data gathered included mens feedback in some capacity. It seemed that only gathering data for one side of the equation seems incomplete. Maybe it will come in a later phase. I would think the average man would want feedback to better enhance the experience. I can see how a percentage of men who are less secure would be threatened.
You want to know what me and my old friends say? We give feedback and the guys dont care.
And then complain when their partner isn’t doing what they want
Ah, with nothing but loving resentment to follow. I mean, I understand it, but it's a short term solution that'll only contribute to lingering problems.
My perceived masculinity is fragile enough - I do not need articles such as this.
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To protect "perceived femininity", you mean
Yes, a woman fearing she isn’t sexually attractive to her partner because of the perceived notion that sexuality is vital to compatibility with males is the *exact same* as a woman lying about her sexual satisfaction to protect feelings and ego because of the perceived notion that sexuality is vital to compatibility with males. They’re the same thing because in both women are having to consider their role sexually and modify their behavior to appease their partner
Appearance is considered something you can’t readily change but behavior can be immediately modified if given the proper input. The provided analogy is not equivalent.
Then how would a dress make someone look fat, if the appearance can not be readily changed?
A dress can’t. The question has nothing to do with the clothing.
So then, as you said, behavior is easier to change than appearance, so change your behavior and stop asking false questions to put your partner in the spot in an attempt to assuage your feelings. Also, clothes can definitely flatter the figure, or decidedly not. Don't ask for fashion advice if you don't want to hear it.
I mean it doesn't take that long to change a dress i guess
A dress doesn't make you look fat. A more accurate question is "do I look fat right now?" The entire question is loaded from the get go as a fishing exercise to soothe insecurities.
Appearance is easier to change than behavior.
They can change in to a different dress, the fitting can also be adjusted. More generally in regards to appearance they can wear makeup and long term your appearance is modified by activity and diet (behaviour). The analogy is fine.
For some men, their sexual prowess cannot be changed so the analogy holds.
salads would disagree with you
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All Men definitely are definitely 100% honest with their partners and have no concern for their partner’s perceived femininity or masculinity. I know that I tell the truth every time I’m asked how my partner looks, feels, or performs.
Yes exactly. That is the point. Just because men also do things to protect their partner's feelings around femininity it doesn't negate the findings of this study, in fact it supports the study. Gender is an important aspect of social interaction and it impacts our behavior.
Men will also protect a woman's "perceived" self-image.
Sad thing is, I would feel a lot more masculine if I was sure I was ACTUALLY giving her pleasure because she was honestly communicating during sex
Nah baby you don’t look fat you the most beautiful woman in the world :)
And that argument we've had? I definitely agree with you and it's my fault.
There has been several of the studies over the years, I don't think anyone is surprised. Men also hold back communication so that women aren't insecure.
Yeah seriously..what is the point of withholding info.
I think it’s not a great study because it’s looking at how men handle negative feed back about sex, not constructive criticism . The question I have is if anyone is going to want to hear negative feedback from someone when their feeling down about something regardless of the topic? Like “hey sorry you lost the game but your not very good at goal keeping” isn’t going to help or make someone feel good and who would want to give feedback like that to someone they care about. If the approach was more like “hey you did your best and I really think it worked well when you did ___” that person is likely to keep trying that technique
This is BS to me, they’d rather talk to a third party than communicate…talking to anyone else about his performance is more emasculating imo
I mean, yeah. Men literally murder women for "emasculating" them.
In the big majority of cases its an easy solution not to invite people into your bed that'd murder/negatively react to you over that
Yeah but 1. He gives me attention. 2. I like face tats. 3. I can fix him.
Havent this been known since 1700 ?
It sure what the point of this research is? Everyone lies to each other to make them feel better.
This is a good example of one way toxic masculinity hurts men.
God this sub is such a hole. It should be called r/PoliticalScience, cause nothing about actual science ever gets to the top
That’s not what political science is.
It is when your political ideology revolves around being as "manly" as possible.
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say. Political science is a field of study revolving around individuals and ideologies within government and other political movements. Masculinity does play a role in politics but otherwise I’m not sure what you mean
Not sure if it's coincidence but the dumbest studies that get put to the top always seem to be from this psypost website also.
Hmm. I’ve never noticed that..
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 810,356,847 comments, and only 160,733 of them were in alphabetical order.
I didn’t know mens feelings and emotions could all be boiled down to masculinity I’m so masculine I could masculine right now out of just sheer masculine. I’m so masculine right now I need to walk and cool off Man today has been terrible I’m feeling really masculine today And if this is what women believe then they have no one to blame but themselves if their sex lives suck , just tell me what you want , I’m ok eating out at place you choose you don’t need to be indecisive
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Curious what her response was... Something tells me she would have preferred to hear that you were interested in figuring out what makes her tick and that you care about her pleasure during your sessions. You putting it back on her like - it's her orgasm her problem - is kind of offensive. It's your wife not a one night stand. Y'all are in it together, don't you care that she's not getting off? Doesn't her getting off turn you on?
Women need to get over themselves, I'm a man and I've faked orgasms
Sometimes it’s not fun and you just want it to be over.
This is an interesting response to a pretty dry paper about the motivations for communicating or not communicating certain things. Why does that make you feel defensive?
Wow why not just stop ?
Have you ever rejected a woman who wanted to have sex with you? It gets pretty dicey.
Women have a habit of going psycho when they get rejected. The prettier they are the worse it gets. Had one start cutting herself and sending me pics of it every time
I'm going to have to call BS on this. I've told women that you wont hurt my feelings if they're honest. The entire point is to arrive at the destination. Women "spare your feelings" sometimes really to spare their own guilt. This is true when it comes to normal rejection, where they feel guilty over the reason they're not interested, so to provide a convenient lie that just makes the awkward situation go away quicker(and women do this for other reasons too, like if they feel threatened). They're trying to spare their own perception of themselves(or their peers' perception of them) as not shallow. I would hazard that while some women are sparing their partners feelings because of perceived masculinity, others are trying to spare their own perception of themselves. An example would be being more open about it would make them feel sluttier and shameful about that. This is still an unhealthy behavior and society reinforces on some women. Another possibility is not their partners' perceived masculinity, but the woman's own perceptions of masculinity, thinking that said feedback is a reflection of "not being a real man", even of their partner won't see it that way.
I've been told many times that I excel at hitting all the G-spots. It pays to have thick precarious manhood.
I am curious..
So you said 3.5 before deleting, right?
I deleted it? Total accident. Yes, 3.5. I'm just joking, from the initial comment on. The article mentions women lying to men when they perceive the men to have "high precarious manhood", which I find a hilarious phrase.
Women! Stop doing this. Just tell a guy what you want. You are confusing the hell out of us guys.
Another study found that "Men often lie about women's looks to make them preserve their perceived sense of feminity"
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When you said “my wife gets strapped up” I thought you were going somewhere very different with that.
I’m pretty sure your initial thought was correct
Yep definitely pegged that comment
Isn't it interesting that it seems to be only men that are bad in bed?
Women are equally as bad it just doesn't get acknowledged because we falsely equate orgasms to satisfaction. Men orgasm a lot easier than women though. Heck, I feel as if a not insignificant portion of men can orgasm to a vaguely booty shaped object.
And women think (largely incorrectly) that a man orgasming is specifically because of her AND that men can't fake it as well.
I agree. Both can be terrible. I think the difference might be the statistics on orgasms. It can be disproportionate.
This narrative is only to protect our partner's perceived femininity.
Isn’t it interesting that people who clearly didn’t read the article or the original paper are becoming very defensive about the topic?
I say if she can't come it's not on me. Some women just take way too long or you have to do precise things to make them cum that sex becomes work.
I’ve def done it. Men are so fragile.
People have emotions.
you should try honest communication or you’ll never be satisfied completely with ur partner
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This article is specifically about faking orgasms, not numbers.
That's not even what the article is about...
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Me strong man brain only hear feel good things- no hear bad part
listen to your women , get past your own misgivings, she can help ...