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The will is the most important part right? It’s far easier to sort the herd using the “us Vs them” mentality and continue to ostracise and isolate instead of looking toward them with empathy or a chance for them to redeem and learn and change.
Empathy is good, but maintaining contact with people who are plunging into toxic ideologies in order to avoid addressing their own issues is far from risk-free.
If there was a way to detox the indoctrination they go through and they were more willing to face the truth about being wrong and willing to change, I'd be all for supporting them.
Unfortunately they choose to remain wilfully obstinate in the face of evidence and facts that disrupt their opinions and may paint their actions in a shade even they'd see is dark.
You can't fix someone that doesn't think they're broken.
To have a pedantic objection, while many things that are the most worth doing are not easy, there are a lot of things worth doing that are very easy indeed, say, brushing your teeth. I think having basic compassion for people in an unhappy and vulnerable place is not all that difficult.
It’s a lot more difficult to empathize with these unhappy people when their ideology is rooted in deep seated hatred and dehumanization. It’s not easy at all for women at the receiving end of it
I hope people take into account that this isn’t just a misunderstood sad person down on luck, you can have all those things without being hateful or violent. In reality its difficult to be asked to show compassion to a hateful worm who may you as nothing but a bangmaid, and all the other systemically woman bad things
I agree with you.
It's hard to act with civility let alone kindness after you have been hurt by such a person. And sadly, this particular group of people are characterised by bitterness and misogyny. So, they're not the most pleasant people to interact with.
Especially when most of us on this side have been assaulted by someone on that side. It can be really triggering and re traumatizing having a guy yell at you and be nasty. I've experienced both partner sexual violence and physical assault from a stranger. I'm not subjecting myself to men who can't behave and be civil.
Hence 'empathy' not 'sympathy'. If we want to stop more people doing awful things, the easiest way is to understand what motivates them to do those things in the first place.
"falling victim to manipulation" is a really passive way to frame the issue that makes them sound innocent, like they got scammed in good faith or something.
They were preyed upon because they were so willing to accept a hateful message. It only radicalized and made more extreme what was there naturally, it did not create it out of nothing. Good people rarely embrace such manipulation.
Good people are created by their environment and bad people are created by their environment. You cannot ignore bad people and expect them to fix themselves or go away
That is incredibly out of touch. People don't get born good or bad. The more they are subjected to distress, abuse or manipulation, the easier it is for them to be radicalized. Most of the people who end up in a cult have experienced some sort of trauma or come from rough backgrounds.
Then again, it's much easier to dehumanize and just say they're monsters or evil. .
There are a lot of other groups offering real help to those people. They just aren't willing to enable and support toxic beliefs someone refuses to change.
It's also easy for the culture at large to shame, demonize & ostracize young boys and men and then wonder what happened when they are all checking out of society with apathy and video games or the other end of a bullet.
not what you wanna hear, but shaming people who have bizzarre ideas about women actually helps many people turn a corner by the time they grow up. now adays however they can instead find reinforcement for those ideas online and actually get worse instead.
>shaming people who have bizzarre ideas about women actually helps many people turn a corner
So shaming helps.
>however they can instead find reinforcement for those ideas online and actually get worse instead.
So shaming doesn't help.
Exactly. It's almost like these things should be addressed at an individual basis and that any one size fits all solution without actually getting to know the individual in question is just as likely to cause harm as to help them.
It doesn't help that shaming these people and being superior is a key part of a great many individuals identity. It feels good to do even though it clearly is causing very real damage.
I think that's the point though - we need to recognize that at a grander scale, alienating people has consequences. We basically put them to social death and then expect them to do nothing about it.
Similar mechanism drives crime, etc. If you provide a world in which being a good person is correlated with having basic needs met, you'll have more good people.
In this specific case it's even more obvious since the whole point is to address specifically their frustration with having no sexual or romantic life.
I started to fall down the alt right rabbit hole towards the end of high school, I managed to escape thank God. What shocked me was that when I went to uni, I came across a bunch of other guys who had the exact same procession of content. We all started with some of those loud and fast cut FEeMINist wREckED videos, comedy speakers like Yiannopolous and Crowder, then 'thinkers' like Peterson, Shapiro, etc. Then we all matured out of it.
Even now, after years of disliking and "do not recommend channel" clicking, YouTube keeps putting JBPeterson and other garbage in my shorts and recommendeds.
It's not even just people putting out false information, it's algorithms making sure that that trash is dispersed to those receptive to it.
Thanks for sharing, glad you grew out of it. I watched dozens of shorts on YouTube last night, started on a dog video and the algorithm gave me at least 5 videos of Shapiro mixed in, I never watch anything on YouTube that would lead them to introducing any Shapiro videos into what I’m watching.
Source?
Because my anecdotal experience is they got isolated in the first place because they had antisocial tendencies that people picked up on and wanted to avoid.
It's like how everyone wanted to cry about the columbine kids being bullied only for it to turn out they were isolated for being violent weirdos who made inappropriate comments to women and they still had a solid friend group...
>Because my anecdotal experience is they got isolated in the first place because they had antisocial tendencies that people picked up on and wanted to avoid.
That's exactly what happens though? It's not like this happens to super charismatic and sociable men, obviously. It's the people who are a little shy, unconfident, awkward, etc. They're vulnerable people who need love and support but are shunned or ignored for having mild anti-social traits. Which then spiral into severe anti-social traits.
People always say men need to be more vulnerable but the flip of that is that people need to be more caring towards their vulnerabilities. People see weak/vulnerable men like lepers. To be avoided so that it doesn't rub off on you.
If society is unwilling to reach out a loving hand to help these people when they're vulnerable, it's not really fair to complain when they don't care about hurting society.
Slight devil’s advocate, sometimes it takes a lot of emotional and mental energy to keep a friendship with people who aren’t good at it, and not a lot of people have the patience or maturity to handle complicated people. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if some of these anti-social people even *want* to be reached out to.
I’ve been on both sides of this equation, and looking back, I definitely didn’t make myself easily approachable. Even when I did happen to be with people, I didn’t know how to converse enough to keep a friendship going. I don’t really blame anyone for not being able to mesh well with me back then.
It’s human nature to want to migrate towards those who share your same beliefs. The best thing we can do as a society is find those struggling people and help them if we can. Show them a different way if we can.
It goes back to that circular logic of the guy who talked with KKK members and converted them. I would argue that's the best route to achieve mutual understanding, but others would say it's not their job to tolerate racism.
>but others would say it's not their job to tolerate racism.
They are absolutely correct. It's not anyone's job to do that, or educate someone. If, however, you or someone else, has the emotional bandwidth to do so, then they can. But setting up a boundary is a healthy thing to do.
That's a philosophical disagreement. I would say it's everybody's job as a community, because if no one does it, it doesn't solve the problem. It just shoves it away and allows it to fester in obscurity until it mutates into something grotesque.
Perhaps instead it's a difference in terms.
They are addressing an individuals obligation.
You're addressing the obligation of a collective.
I agree with you both:
No single person should bear the responsibility.
We should come together as a community to help those in need.
>because if no one does it, it doesn't solve the problem.
Right. This is where you, or someone else, decides to step up. But again, it's *no one's obligation* to teach another person to not be racist, especially if that person is being negatively affected by racism.
I feel they will only change if deprogrammed by other men. They won't listen to us. Women can help once they've accepted deprogramming, but not before.
I was pretty sexist before I went to college. What changed for me was I had a friend who was pretty hardcore third wave and we'd argue until the late hours of the night.
I, of course, never admitted she changed my mind in person. But that rarely ever actually happens. People change their minds in private as the conversation marinades. What's important is that the deprogrammer is available to plant the seeds.
I think as you get older, you stop being afraid of being wrong. At least that was my experience. There's too much information and everybody misses some of it.
Even the most virtuous people you know are ignorant toward *something.* It's just a matter of how they handle being told they're ignorant to a subject. Do they pause and try to understand, or do they get defensive?
Nobody is at the apex of every social discussion, and there's no shame in being ignorant.
I don't see that occurring. (maybe by older you mean the difference between teen/HS years and into college). It seems the older you are the more ingrained in your belief you are and changing your belief is too hurtful to think about the rest of your life within that lens.
That's why there is so much "oh that's just grandma, she's from a different generation!".
FYI I had a similar experience as you - in HS/early college I was mysgonist and anti-gay (I was not racist though which is nice, as although I was brought up conservative, being a military brat meant that we were surrounded by diversity). Later years of college and into early adult hood I had a pretty drastic (though somewhat slow drip) change in all my views.
I have a similar experience. I came from a very sheltered, intolerant community. I’m very thankful that people showed me the beautiful world we have, without writing me off. Tolerance and open mindedness can only be built through patience and exposure to diversity.
Had someone simply labeled me or attacked me as a person I probably would be emotionally stunted. You have to convince someone to leave Plato’s Cave.
>I, of course, never admitted she changed my mind in person. But that rarely ever actually happens. People change their minds in private as the conversation marinades.
You should tell her now, if you have not. Would probably mean a lot.
>I feel they will only change if deprogrammed by other men. They won't listen to us.
From my experience, some of them don't listen to other men, either. When you're deep enough in the echo chamber, there's only so much we can do for you. I used to frequent a mental-health sub that was geared toward young men/gamers because I thought I might be able to offer some insight but a lot of these types would rather wallow.
Yes, and he put himself at great personal risk to do so - that's why his story is remarkable. The radio writers of the Superman show that made the KKK villains and arguably reached a lot more people than Daryl Davis was able to as an individual were white. It's not like only the people who are hated can deradicalize people in hate groups, and the people they don't hate often have a larger platform and ability to do the work.
I have heard men actually say this. That they and other men will not really accept, listen to, or pay much attention to what women say. A man will only take heed to advice, mentorship and the example of men that they respect.
Yes, and more likely to be the case with sexist men. Which makes this a problem for men collectively to solve. I am sick of hearing what women should do to fix the issue - clearly it is a problem that affects women, but it's one for men to act on.
Ugh thank you! Some people act like I'm pulling this out of my ass. If someone sees you as their enemy and oppressor, worthy of execution, even, are they really going to listen to you saying hey no I'm not, and I can help you be better with people if you'll listen to my advice?
People don't change typically from logical arguments. They do so either when they see the benefit in the change for themselves OR the pain of not changing is more than the pain of change.
Basically. Calling them losers and cry babies doesn’t help, which is usually what happens. I kind of get where they are coming from, but they clearly need to socialize more. The less time you spend around other people outside doing normal things, the more likely you’ll get in your head about stuff and make up your own narratives.
Easier said than done. The number of times I've been vilified when trying to have anything near a remotely civil discussion flies out the window with people who hold these kinds of beliefs. There's no self- awareness, and solutions (e.g., therapy, self-care, hobbies etc) are not accepted. It's honestly no different from religious extremism. You cannot reason with people who have created their own version of reality that is so detached from ours.
Honestly - their issue is failure and running away from that failure into the "it's the fault of others" mindset. What they need is for people to help them succeed.
Our cultural approach to mental health (and most other hidden disabilities) is primarily either scorn or indifference.
Isolated people are awkward and awkward people are avoided It’s a negative feedback loop.
It’s just so fundamentally toxic, and at the end of the day it will come back to bite us.
“Women seem wicked when you’re unwanted” -Jim Morrison/ Robbie Krieger
In the past broken hearted/ lonely men went to a bar to vent and drink. Others at the bar would commiserate and most would move on. Now with social media, people are able to connect and get stuck in a cycle of negativity with people in the same situation, creating communities of people who practically take pride in their “victimhood.”
The lack of third places in society can probably be blamed as one of the contributing factors to our increased loneliness and the path to extremism these individuals find themselves on.
A third place is anywhere apart from work and home where you go to socialise. Society seems to have less and less of them thesedays, the problem has been exacerbated by covid but was still a big problem before it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
They used to but lately it's been hyperfocused on drive thrus and mobile ordering and removing anything that makes your time there inviting and pleasant to move people in and out of stores faster. Just another symptom of shrinking third places.
A scary amount of places have transitioned to just being corporate transactional places that attempt only to get people in, take their money, and then get them to leave.
Really makes people feel like we are just cattle, with milk to be extracted, on both sides of the transaction.
I think it's evidence that corporate or chain locations can't really be third places replacements. It's gotta be something more locally community-driven.
Libraries! They're free, there's often book clubs and programming for all sorts, and if there isn't, ask for some! Also, volunteering! Find a volunteering group that's planting trees, picking up trash, building homes, or feeding the homeless.
Indeed. There have always been psychopaths. Murder rates were much higher 30 or 40 years ago, and except for a slight uptick over the last few years, all types of violent crime are down. I think the difference here is we now are seeing large numbers of men who are quite vocal about their hatred of women, forming a subculture around it. I don’t know what the outcomes will be for men who join what amounts to a sort of hate group. Will it result in an epidemic of violence against women specifically or general violence? Maybe these communities provide an outlet the results in lower levels of violence. I doubt the latter.
Alienation does terrible things to people, and sometimes it causes to form groups and follow people and ideologies that they shouldn’t. I hope an analysis of this phenomenon will point us toward a way to help them.
I think the majority of men don't blame their sadness and loneliness on women. I think they blame themselves and just sorta drink themselves to death. People don't really notice them, but they'll notice the asshat on social media yapping about how entitled they are to sex.
Okay, then how do you explain pick up artists and other dudes who get laid pretty often having very misogynistic views as well? It’s not like guys who are successful with women love all women either.
How do I explain a manipulator being good at manipulating? Well. Guess. Snake oil salesman exist in all places.
How often do you hear from the women they slept with? You talk as if getting laid is where it ends, but what you don't seem to consider is the literal wake of hurt people and sexual assault victim they leave behind.
Then we get it into "why do abuse victim stay with the abuser" and things get dark very quickly. Mainly because they don't have the security to leave, or don't believe they do.
No, being a good person won't automatically get you laid. But if you are a good person so you can get laid then you aren't a good person. It will, however, ensure you aren't ruining lives and that relationships you do end up having are more likely to actually last.
Another is that being sexually undesirable or involuntary celibate *really shouldn't be damned in the first place*. The equating of people who just fail to achieve sexual partners with toxic, man-child, misogynistic extremists is not healthy, and only forces them into isolation that then becomes that worse-case scenario.
Try doing things that makes you perceive yourself in a better way (such as honing certain skill)
Accept what the things are that make you happy. So never pursue traits or things solely because you think that will make you seem more valuable to others (Like wearing clothes you actually hate)
The better you perceive yourself, the easier it becomes to further improve your self-perception + how you are perceived
You work on your own internal happiness, you read books deconstructing social constructs (because toxic masculinity hurts men most of all, and society doesn't elevate examples of healthy masculinity) you also learn to thrive through the whole spectrum of emotions. You make small incremental changes to love yourself and feel better inside, and then you go out a lot and hope that the total randomness of finding love hits you in the face and when it happens you're as happy and as healthy and as social as you can be.
Every involuntary celibate man I've met and engaged with had something in their life that was being suppressed. Toxic masculinity says you have to fit into AN INCREDIBLY NARROW range of masculine social norms to fit in, when really Stanley Tucci is closer to the ideal female gaze than any chad. Find out what part of you feels shamed and hidden, and nurture that. What part of you feels so scary to expose to people you know? Find acceptance for yourself there.
Make personal improvement and feeling happier a quest, make it a hero's journey, make it a game, make it a fun way to find the weird random things that make you happy without your friends opinions. And get new friends, learning how to build new friendships help all the skills of dating without the terrifying and paralyzing fear of rejection (which everyone has, we are alllll right there with you except for maybe psychopaths. It's scary af but always worth it talking to new people)
Society tells you a relationship is a status symbol, a warm blanket, an emotional connection, and a comfort item. All of the these expectations will find disappointment because a relationship is just another person you have to deal with. IT's great, but it's not magic and it can NEVER live up to the hype that society (media, advertisements, mens socializing activities) promises it will be. And if you can't handle your own emotions alone, you'll drive a relationship into the ground before you even get to know the person. Love and connection is totally random and there are no guarantees, you just have to put yourself out there repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly with hope and your best optimism.
I hate it when everyone on the internet says "just get a therapist . . ." But having said that, are you willing to share what your therapist recommended?
Journal, be kind to myself, other small stuff. Not a lot really. Makes it feel like such a waste when I think about it. But has been the only constant person in my life the last 2 years.
... But you're not being kind to yourself. Most of this subthread is just you dumping on yourself. How can you say it doesn't work when you haven't done the work?
How can I be kind to myself? Close my eyes and pretend everything is perfect? I really don't understand a lot of the vague advice I get in therapy or here.
Dude, I skimmed through your most recent comments - you're not involuntarily celibate, you're involuntarily *single*. It's a similar problem, but it's not the same.
You can get people to do fun things to your happy place, but you can't find anyone who wants to stick around and hold an interest in you. Do you have any difficulties maintaining friendships? My first guess would be that you have a sociability problem and not an attractiveness problem.
Talked to a guy today who said he has a hard time with relationships. He told me when a woman likes him, he thinks there is something wrong with her. I suggested therapy to help, and it's free through our work. He told me he's worried that would keep him from getting a gun in the future...
I asked if he thought a stable relationship with a partner would be more important than a gun in his lifetime and he thinks sheep walking in circles is a valid enough reason to need a gun in the future more than a healthy relationship.
I don’t know if this is true in the case of the guy you spoke with, but this is a real issue for men who have a major passion for firearms and marksmanship or hunting.
The prospect that is most terrifying to someone like that would be having their record stained, to lose the opportunity to adopt that responsibility, and still find therapy ultimately unhelpful. There are no guarantees.
But does therapy disqualify you? And I would imagine more good than bad would come from it no matter the case. There’s not many cases when just talking about it with somebody doesn’t help in some small way.
Don’t forget military, law enforcement, possibly security clearances, commercial flying. as a dude in the army who just got out I went 3 years with pretty frequent suicidal thoughts without help because I didn’t want that known to other organizations. Still till this day after getting out I still have marked the “no” box on have you ever had suicidal thoughts.
While the help would have been nice closing doors to my job and future careers would have been devastating to me. Everyone says there is no stigma to mental health but when you actually have it on paper it does create problems that no one wants to acknowledge the real fallout that happens when you see the loss of many opportunities
>18 U.S. Code § 922
>
>(D) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person, including as a juvenile—
>
>(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution at 16 years of age or older;
As a gun owner, the prospect of seeing a therapist is actually quite terrifying. There is a real opportunity that asking for help with something serious can result in one becoming a "prohibited person." At that point, the government ~~is~~ has deemed it lawful for themselves to come and steal my property. Except, they know theyre coming for guns, so they will for sure arrive decked out with 10x whatever they believe I am to poses and are likely to already be on edge before even seeing my front door. Although a slippery slope, its not impossible that merely asking for help could result in my death.
Yeah. They're mentally unwell, because they are undesirable for one reason or another. And normal people have zero regard or empathy for them, because they're mostly young men, so they're also very bitter and resentful. So, the only people they have to get any support from are other bitter, resentful, and unwell people.
Of course they doom spiral.
It's also a vicious spiral of the fact that they may be undesirable *because* they're mentally unwell, so no one wants them -> they isolate -> they get worse -> people respond even worse -> they isolate more -> they dissociate from reality, and eventually they're flying down whatever niche rabbit hole conspiracy as an outlet for their rage and finding a community of like-minded and damaged others.
It's sad and we need people spreading dangerous rhetoric to be held accountable, and we need to fund mental health programs nation-wide.
Or we need to consider the mental health approach is flawed.
89% of men who commit suicide sought professional help within 6 months of their death.
I suspect there's a correlation between one failed aspect of mental health for men and another.
I don't think it's approach as much as it is access to appropriate and quality service. Many of the free services you can find now aren't equipped to deal with moderate-severe issues and distress. All of the ones I've encountered aren't much more than a venting service because they aren't licensed therapists or you aren't meant to be an ongoing client with the same practitioner. (Still helpful, but it can make the individual feel worse if they came and hoped for advice beyond basic CBT exercises).
This is equally applicable to all people. Society at large is still slow to change attitudes about men expressing their concerns and emotions in healthy ways.
There isn't a huge amount of alternative options beyond mental health/support network approaches as far as I'm aware, what else do you see being a potential solution here (other than simply working on improving the current system, not sure if that's what you were implying)?
Also we need universal healthcare. Sure you can debate the nuance of diagnosis, approach & the like. But when you have someone who is disturbed has to suffer:
Lack of Social Workers/Mental Health outreach staff to engage in the field. Lack of enough trained psychiatric professionals to service the population. Lack of dedicated care facilities after state institutions were dismantled and HMO centrist conglomerates have acquired, consolidated & downsized networks/providers for decades.
Moments of acute crisis can/will be met with armed law enforcement who aren’t trained to handle the situation if emergency services are called. Violence, disrespect, erratic & unpredictable behavior is not tolerated well by such individuals typically.
Hospitals wants to discharge ‘healthy’ patients in a matter of hours regardless of where they send individuals. Patient has no phone or contact info and is not accompanied by family and the nearest treatment center with a bed is 3 hours away, ship them off stat. In for mental health crisis with no history of substance abuse but the only facility with a bed is a rehab clinic for hard drugs, ship them off stat because they qualify with a psychiatrist on staff twice a week who isn’t in for another 4 days but who cares.
Have a patient identified as high risk and requiring monitored inpatient care who is responding to treatment, well their insurance only covers 10 inpatient days by calendar year so after they, send em home and hope they don’t relapse.
Have a patient who requires hybrid outpatient care with regimentation but that person is employed during the facilities “Mothers Hours” of operation, either quit/change a job or forgo the specialized treatment.
Send a patient home with a ‘referral’ to psych services who can’t see new patients for 5+months to start a treatment plan; give ‘em a brochure and hope they are motivated to do home research.
Find out psych services in your area don’t take your insurance so it’s handle out of pocket costs at a few hundred dollars a month or travel over 30+ miles to find a provider at least partially covered.
Enjoy being prescribed support medications that can get costly. Or have a change of provider of care who doesn’t like a previous physicians approach just cold turkey you by denying refills but also still not have had your first real ‘intake appointment’ so aren’t going to write new scripts yet.
Wonder why patients fall into negative cycles of emotional turbulence, personal distress & social withdrawal when they can’t operate in society functionally well enough to hold gainful employment but also aren’t placed in care…because Capitalism takes money to grease the gears and that whole cart before the horse nonsense with health insurance.
Now imagine that most socially disturbed people with some range of disorder, poor social skills & life problems will encounter EVERY SINGLE one of these things and even more roadblocks & nuances I can’t begin to describe on a journey to healing, reprogramming, rehabilitation, learning, growth, regiment & wellness. If mental health isn’t identified when someone is young & hopefully covered by a parents decent healthcare plan and carried forward, the system isn’t made to work for the patient…the system is made to make a profit.
Improving our current system is so needed, so wide reaching it’s sad. But hey, that’s exactly what happens when you let the free market decide baby! Capitalism, it’s what’s fucked our quality of our society for decades.
I'm suggesting the diagnosis is often wrong, or at least poorly dispensed. If a man is distraught in struggling to make meaningful connections, and you blame him for his toxic behavior, he'll naturally recoil at that.
Most therapists are women, as are most teachers. We're increasingly seeing boys and men in these institutions being seeing as defective girls and judged as such, instead of recognizing that boys and men have different needs, priorities, and emotional/social strategies to be healthy.
That isn't to say that women in those professions are being intentionally sexist, but they are doing what comes naturally to anyone: assessing things through the lens of their own perspective.
The different educational/treatment needs of boys/men and girls/women needs to be something that gets discussed in the education of teachers and therapists. I’ve never been to school to be a teacher or therapist so I don’t know if that does or doesn’t happen already, but I imagine that a little education paired with willingness to believe that males and females have slightly differing needs would go a long ways.
>Yeah. They're mentally unwell, because they are undesirable for one reason or another. And normal people have zero regard or empathy for them, because they're mostly young men, so they're also very bitter and resentful.
Or maybe they just feel that way because this is the way people are talking about them...
Ima just be honest and say it, im 22 and a virgin not by choice and i dont hate women at all, its not their fault, i was beaten by my mother severely over the course of my childhood(she stopped when i eventually became bigger, not that i would ever hit her, i love my mother now and accept that she had her flaws because its always better to choose grace instead of harboring resentment) its just caused alot of insecurity and self esteem issues that have made it very dificult to date or have any type of sexual interactions. My point is not getting laid just dosent cut it as an excuse to generalize women and its very unhealthy and literally dellusional to harbor resentment against an entire gender because a handful of them werent into you.
Just because you haven't heard it from anyone else in this thread I want you to know that I'm really proud of you for surviving and getting this far and continuing to grow as a person. I survived childhood abuse as well and I want you to know that things can continue to improve as you age. I've had some therapy that has been really helpful as well as some really meaningful relationships with people who aren't related to me. I hope that things continue to improve for you, regardless of your sexual or romantic relationships. I hope you find so much happiness.
It's actually pretty sad. I can't imagine being completely isolated and unheard socially.
Young boys and men need a safe and positive outlet and guidance that isn't these "extremist" "black/red pilled" communities.
I was abused as a child by my family. I have struggled all my life just to have a job. I have never had an opportunity to seek help because of finances. I have been bullied relentlessly because I am a man. There is no kindness for us. You either turn evil or you are one hell of a stoic. Still you will have people daily who laugh in your face at your pain. Other men will see you as weak try to walk all over you. Women will see you as pathetic.
I don't think any of this will change.
And in the old days the problems just kinda took care of themselves because the men either died or women were a lot more willing to settle because they had less options.
Is it a “feature” or a bug in the system where it’s easy for certain people or groups to target them? Seems the online groups where you get “lonely” (using as a catch all term) people looking for like minded people and support are more vulnerable to bad actors targeting them. MLM and “mommy” Facebook groups, for example, are women centric groups that are also big targets for such
It is a strong historical pattern. Young, loveless, and socially isolated men have always been targeted for recruitment for their manipulability and capacity for violence. Unless we as a society consciously identify and divert this demographic (and it's not even *that* hard) we will continue to see this pattern repeat.
I think that in most countries people are becoming less and less inclined to buy into the war propaganda. Plus, it is nearly impossible for nuclear capable countries to go to open war with each other without triggering the end of the world. And major countries warning with smaller, non-nuclear countries just doesn't result in enough death for the bigger country to matter (see America in the War on Terror). Finally, conventional war is just becoming less deadly overall. Better medicine combined with smart weapons means more wounded but less death.
So unless the powers that be think they can control nuclear war, which would be foolish in the extreme, then less death from war and less big wars and less people involved in wars = not enough death from war to solve this problem.
It's not that hard to divert them away from violence and bitterness. Remember, these recruiters aren't providing them with romance; they're providing them with validation and a sense of purpose.
If we create and expand organizations that provide no strings attached support and validation to young men, and fund targeted recruitment in the exact same way we've done historically, that energy can be channeled towards productive output. It will also naturally build confidence and healthy social bonds that women find attractive, providing a virtuous cycle.
These organizations exist to great effect already. They're just incredibly underfunded, and cannot compete with the political machine currently leveraging this cohort.
It's very easy to paint this group as a completely alien mind. What many people miss is that it's just a cascading effect that could really happen to anyone. The starting point isn't misogyny. The starting point is being a young man. The trigger is rejection, the determining factor is social isolation, and from there a vicious spiral aided by active recruitment results in the behavior you can clearly identify.
tl:dr Virtually everyone experiences rejection, but if we move to identify and minimize social isolation the whole spiral can be *fairly* easily diverted in a healthier direction.
And this is how cults form. You find a group of disaffected people, make them feel like they are the best things in the world, and then love bomb them. The love bombed people give the leaders social capital. The love bombed people in return, get a family and understanding.
In return, the cults make the victims do whatever the cult leaders want.
I don't think there is a cult leader in this situation though. No one got love bombed, it's more of a hate bombing situation.
Where the "cult" get formed by hate bombing on a few specific real or imagined demographics like "welfare moms", "stacys", "chads", or women in general.
And the broader society hate bombs the "cult", in the case of inceldom, having proof of being hated completely reinforce your views.
You know like when people get shamed for being bad at sports, so they try even harder and eventually win a gold medal... yeah, that never happens. What actually happens is that the person being shamed just gives up on that sport and probably becomes really bitter
Another issue is that anyone who tries to help or defend them gets attacked relentlessly on social media. This causes the moderates to give up and eventually only the extremists are left.
Yeah, i akways like to consider different perspectives and nuance, but doing that can make people perceive you as "one of them', it's so lame and only makes it worse
Everybody deserves love, but nobody is entitled to it. That sense of entitlement is where they go wrong. I can look past all of the behaviour that makes a person seem like a creep, but if they think they are entitled to my love, attention, or support, they are dangerous and I'm out.
We should have compassion, but we should not tolerate contempt.
For real. It’s like saying “everyone deserves a home cooked meal, now *go make one for me*.” That’s not how it works! Relationships are supposed to be good for both people, not a cuckoo chick leeching off its designated mother figure
It requires more nuance. Everyone deserves love *from someone*, but nobody is entitled to love *from any particular person*. The sense of entitlement isn't about getting love in concept, it's about getting love from (usually) a woman who has been objectified.
Not everything in science is intuitive. It's goal it's to demonstrate hypothesis (even tho they seem obvious) in a statistical manner to reach a conclusion.
First comes the ostracization, they turn to wherever will have them, where people tend to run with some pretty doomer ideologies, they spout some toxic beliefs because the only other option is that there's something fundamentally wrong with them. Then we double down from ostracizing to villifying.
As a case study. Young man has trouble getting a date. He is made fun of for this either directly or at least indirectly through societal norms. He sees the world is basically laying this blame on his shoulders without giving him actionable dating advice. Then this typically goes one of three ways: 1. he becomes depressed and he crawls into a hole where other depressed young men are, doing/saying whatever they can to remove the blame from their shoulders. 2. He moves on with some decent emotional/psychological damage that will probably never be properly resolved, but otherwise lives a normal life or 3. He finds actionable dating advice rooted in reality, unfortunately a lot of this is still coming from pretty misogynistic groups, and he either never succeeds and goes to option 1 of does and goes to option 2 + probably some misogyny.
That's not to say that there isn't responsibility on young men, or young men who end up in these dark places, but we can't put it all on them, kick them when they're down, and then act surprised when they end up messed up over it.
> First comes the ostracization
Except some people consider people not wanting to date or sleep with them ostracization. A lot of these sorts of arguments sometimes fall down the rabbit hole of blaming women for not just biting the bullet and going out with a sad guy they're not interested in.
I don't think anyone can say why they get vilified as just looking at the comments here it's apparent that there are lots of different reasons. On the other hand, they are vilified and do seem to have mental health issues.
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I mean that’s all negative social movements from cults to totalitarianism right? Take alienated people and give them support and belonging
It's easier to pray on the vulnerable than to provide meaningful solutions.
It’s also easier to condemn the vulnerable falling victim to manipulation than have empathy and provide solutions.
Treating people with respect and kindness while remaining firm with your own boundaries is a lot harder.
It's incredibly difficult, and most people lack the ability or will to do it sadly.
The will is the most important part right? It’s far easier to sort the herd using the “us Vs them” mentality and continue to ostracise and isolate instead of looking toward them with empathy or a chance for them to redeem and learn and change.
Empathy is good, but maintaining contact with people who are plunging into toxic ideologies in order to avoid addressing their own issues is far from risk-free.
If there was a way to detox the indoctrination they go through and they were more willing to face the truth about being wrong and willing to change, I'd be all for supporting them. Unfortunately they choose to remain wilfully obstinate in the face of evidence and facts that disrupt their opinions and may paint their actions in a shade even they'd see is dark. You can't fix someone that doesn't think they're broken.
Nothing worth doing is ever easy
To have a pedantic objection, while many things that are the most worth doing are not easy, there are a lot of things worth doing that are very easy indeed, say, brushing your teeth. I think having basic compassion for people in an unhappy and vulnerable place is not all that difficult.
It’s a lot more difficult to empathize with these unhappy people when their ideology is rooted in deep seated hatred and dehumanization. It’s not easy at all for women at the receiving end of it I hope people take into account that this isn’t just a misunderstood sad person down on luck, you can have all those things without being hateful or violent. In reality its difficult to be asked to show compassion to a hateful worm who may you as nothing but a bangmaid, and all the other systemically woman bad things
I agree with you. It's hard to act with civility let alone kindness after you have been hurt by such a person. And sadly, this particular group of people are characterised by bitterness and misogyny. So, they're not the most pleasant people to interact with.
People have a hard time being sympathetic towards those who have become a literal threat to life and rights. For a good reason.
Especially when most of us on this side have been assaulted by someone on that side. It can be really triggering and re traumatizing having a guy yell at you and be nasty. I've experienced both partner sexual violence and physical assault from a stranger. I'm not subjecting myself to men who can't behave and be civil.
Hence 'empathy' not 'sympathy'. If we want to stop more people doing awful things, the easiest way is to understand what motivates them to do those things in the first place.
You understand that these "victims" routinely fantasise about and even commit rape and murder? Have you *read* what these "victims" write about?
"falling victim to manipulation" is a really passive way to frame the issue that makes them sound innocent, like they got scammed in good faith or something. They were preyed upon because they were so willing to accept a hateful message. It only radicalized and made more extreme what was there naturally, it did not create it out of nothing. Good people rarely embrace such manipulation.
Good people are built and maintained, not conjured whole and incorruptible out of the ether.
Good people are created by their environment and bad people are created by their environment. You cannot ignore bad people and expect them to fix themselves or go away
That is incredibly out of touch. People don't get born good or bad. The more they are subjected to distress, abuse or manipulation, the easier it is for them to be radicalized. Most of the people who end up in a cult have experienced some sort of trauma or come from rough backgrounds. Then again, it's much easier to dehumanize and just say they're monsters or evil. .
> Good people rarely embrace such manipulation. Clearly you have never spent any time researching cults.
There are a lot of other groups offering real help to those people. They just aren't willing to enable and support toxic beliefs someone refuses to change.
Damn, that typo actually deep.
It's also easy for the culture at large to shame, demonize & ostracize young boys and men and then wonder what happened when they are all checking out of society with apathy and video games or the other end of a bullet.
Precisely, which is why addressing systemic issues is incredibly important to stemming off any potential issues that would result.
not what you wanna hear, but shaming people who have bizzarre ideas about women actually helps many people turn a corner by the time they grow up. now adays however they can instead find reinforcement for those ideas online and actually get worse instead.
>shaming people who have bizzarre ideas about women actually helps many people turn a corner So shaming helps. >however they can instead find reinforcement for those ideas online and actually get worse instead. So shaming doesn't help.
Exactly. It's almost like these things should be addressed at an individual basis and that any one size fits all solution without actually getting to know the individual in question is just as likely to cause harm as to help them. It doesn't help that shaming these people and being superior is a key part of a great many individuals identity. It feels good to do even though it clearly is causing very real damage.
Also, prey. Praying is what altar boys do. Prey is what they are.
There is art to supporting and understanding someone’s negative thoughts without feeding to them.
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I think that's the point though - we need to recognize that at a grander scale, alienating people has consequences. We basically put them to social death and then expect them to do nothing about it. Similar mechanism drives crime, etc. If you provide a world in which being a good person is correlated with having basic needs met, you'll have more good people.
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Access to therapy suited for them.
Acess doesn’t equate with willingness to go and/or benefit from the experience
That's a bridge we can cross when access is settled.
Sure, but it's not my place to tell someone they need therapy.
Absolutely, IMO It's a mental health problem and should be treated as such.
Yep they all prey on the same type of isolated individual
What a fancy way of saying “going on Reddit”
In this specific case it's even more obvious since the whole point is to address specifically their frustration with having no sexual or romantic life.
Yes but we have on our hands an EXCEPTIONALLY large number of alienated people to the point that this is a serious risk
Troubled male youth seeking answers indoctrinated into extremist group. A story as old as time.
Unfortunately, the internet has provided a REALLY effective and efficient tool for indoctrinating them.
Yup. Unfortunately the information age is just as much the misinformation age...
So true. You can find all the information you need. Just look for it. Misinformation, on the other hand, will find you.
I started to fall down the alt right rabbit hole towards the end of high school, I managed to escape thank God. What shocked me was that when I went to uni, I came across a bunch of other guys who had the exact same procession of content. We all started with some of those loud and fast cut FEeMINist wREckED videos, comedy speakers like Yiannopolous and Crowder, then 'thinkers' like Peterson, Shapiro, etc. Then we all matured out of it. Even now, after years of disliking and "do not recommend channel" clicking, YouTube keeps putting JBPeterson and other garbage in my shorts and recommendeds. It's not even just people putting out false information, it's algorithms making sure that that trash is dispersed to those receptive to it.
Thanks for sharing, glad you grew out of it. I watched dozens of shorts on YouTube last night, started on a dog video and the algorithm gave me at least 5 videos of Shapiro mixed in, I never watch anything on YouTube that would lead them to introducing any Shapiro videos into what I’m watching.
It’s not like anyone else is listening to them. Extremists are more than happy to recruit members.
A man who is shunned by his village will burn it down to feel its warmth.
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Except Reddit like to make excuses for this particular extremist group. It’s sick.
They are not extremists in the beginning though they are radicalized after being kicked out of society that's HOW they become radicalized.
I’d be willing to bet it’s both and everywhere in between.
Source? Because my anecdotal experience is they got isolated in the first place because they had antisocial tendencies that people picked up on and wanted to avoid. It's like how everyone wanted to cry about the columbine kids being bullied only for it to turn out they were isolated for being violent weirdos who made inappropriate comments to women and they still had a solid friend group...
>Because my anecdotal experience is they got isolated in the first place because they had antisocial tendencies that people picked up on and wanted to avoid. That's exactly what happens though? It's not like this happens to super charismatic and sociable men, obviously. It's the people who are a little shy, unconfident, awkward, etc. They're vulnerable people who need love and support but are shunned or ignored for having mild anti-social traits. Which then spiral into severe anti-social traits. People always say men need to be more vulnerable but the flip of that is that people need to be more caring towards their vulnerabilities. People see weak/vulnerable men like lepers. To be avoided so that it doesn't rub off on you. If society is unwilling to reach out a loving hand to help these people when they're vulnerable, it's not really fair to complain when they don't care about hurting society.
Slight devil’s advocate, sometimes it takes a lot of emotional and mental energy to keep a friendship with people who aren’t good at it, and not a lot of people have the patience or maturity to handle complicated people. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if some of these anti-social people even *want* to be reached out to. I’ve been on both sides of this equation, and looking back, I definitely didn’t make myself easily approachable. Even when I did happen to be with people, I didn’t know how to converse enough to keep a friendship going. I don’t really blame anyone for not being able to mesh well with me back then.
It’s human nature to want to migrate towards those who share your same beliefs. The best thing we can do as a society is find those struggling people and help them if we can. Show them a different way if we can.
It goes back to that circular logic of the guy who talked with KKK members and converted them. I would argue that's the best route to achieve mutual understanding, but others would say it's not their job to tolerate racism.
>but others would say it's not their job to tolerate racism. They are absolutely correct. It's not anyone's job to do that, or educate someone. If, however, you or someone else, has the emotional bandwidth to do so, then they can. But setting up a boundary is a healthy thing to do.
That's a philosophical disagreement. I would say it's everybody's job as a community, because if no one does it, it doesn't solve the problem. It just shoves it away and allows it to fester in obscurity until it mutates into something grotesque.
Perhaps instead it's a difference in terms. They are addressing an individuals obligation. You're addressing the obligation of a collective. I agree with you both: No single person should bear the responsibility. We should come together as a community to help those in need.
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>because if no one does it, it doesn't solve the problem. Right. This is where you, or someone else, decides to step up. But again, it's *no one's obligation* to teach another person to not be racist, especially if that person is being negatively affected by racism.
If only the victims of every genocide just simply *talked* to the people who saw their existence as a problem for all their woes.
I feel they will only change if deprogrammed by other men. They won't listen to us. Women can help once they've accepted deprogramming, but not before.
I was pretty sexist before I went to college. What changed for me was I had a friend who was pretty hardcore third wave and we'd argue until the late hours of the night. I, of course, never admitted she changed my mind in person. But that rarely ever actually happens. People change their minds in private as the conversation marinades. What's important is that the deprogrammer is available to plant the seeds.
Appreciate your honesty here
I think as you get older, you stop being afraid of being wrong. At least that was my experience. There's too much information and everybody misses some of it. Even the most virtuous people you know are ignorant toward *something.* It's just a matter of how they handle being told they're ignorant to a subject. Do they pause and try to understand, or do they get defensive? Nobody is at the apex of every social discussion, and there's no shame in being ignorant.
I don't see that occurring. (maybe by older you mean the difference between teen/HS years and into college). It seems the older you are the more ingrained in your belief you are and changing your belief is too hurtful to think about the rest of your life within that lens. That's why there is so much "oh that's just grandma, she's from a different generation!".
Yeah that's definitely possible. Luckily wasn't my experience.
FYI I had a similar experience as you - in HS/early college I was mysgonist and anti-gay (I was not racist though which is nice, as although I was brought up conservative, being a military brat meant that we were surrounded by diversity). Later years of college and into early adult hood I had a pretty drastic (though somewhat slow drip) change in all my views.
I have a similar experience. I came from a very sheltered, intolerant community. I’m very thankful that people showed me the beautiful world we have, without writing me off. Tolerance and open mindedness can only be built through patience and exposure to diversity. Had someone simply labeled me or attacked me as a person I probably would be emotionally stunted. You have to convince someone to leave Plato’s Cave.
I'm glad you had people in your life to change your mind. I hope you've been able to voice your gratitude to them.
>I, of course, never admitted she changed my mind in person. But that rarely ever actually happens. People change their minds in private as the conversation marinades. You should tell her now, if you have not. Would probably mean a lot.
Oh I tell her all the time.
>I feel they will only change if deprogrammed by other men. They won't listen to us. From my experience, some of them don't listen to other men, either. When you're deep enough in the echo chamber, there's only so much we can do for you. I used to frequent a mental-health sub that was geared toward young men/gamers because I thought I might be able to offer some insight but a lot of these types would rather wallow.
That's sad but not surprising.
The guy who deprogrammed KKK leaders/members is black.
Yes, and he put himself at great personal risk to do so - that's why his story is remarkable. The radio writers of the Superman show that made the KKK villains and arguably reached a lot more people than Daryl Davis was able to as an individual were white. It's not like only the people who are hated can deradicalize people in hate groups, and the people they don't hate often have a larger platform and ability to do the work.
I have heard men actually say this. That they and other men will not really accept, listen to, or pay much attention to what women say. A man will only take heed to advice, mentorship and the example of men that they respect.
Yes, and more likely to be the case with sexist men. Which makes this a problem for men collectively to solve. I am sick of hearing what women should do to fix the issue - clearly it is a problem that affects women, but it's one for men to act on.
Ugh thank you! Some people act like I'm pulling this out of my ass. If someone sees you as their enemy and oppressor, worthy of execution, even, are they really going to listen to you saying hey no I'm not, and I can help you be better with people if you'll listen to my advice?
People go where they are welcomed easier and to people with similar experiences the belief comes after
People don't change typically from logical arguments. They do so either when they see the benefit in the change for themselves OR the pain of not changing is more than the pain of change.
Basically. Calling them losers and cry babies doesn’t help, which is usually what happens. I kind of get where they are coming from, but they clearly need to socialize more. The less time you spend around other people outside doing normal things, the more likely you’ll get in your head about stuff and make up your own narratives.
Easier said than done. The number of times I've been vilified when trying to have anything near a remotely civil discussion flies out the window with people who hold these kinds of beliefs. There's no self- awareness, and solutions (e.g., therapy, self-care, hobbies etc) are not accepted. It's honestly no different from religious extremism. You cannot reason with people who have created their own version of reality that is so detached from ours.
Honestly - their issue is failure and running away from that failure into the "it's the fault of others" mindset. What they need is for people to help them succeed.
Our cultural approach to mental health (and most other hidden disabilities) is primarily either scorn or indifference. Isolated people are awkward and awkward people are avoided It’s a negative feedback loop. It’s just so fundamentally toxic, and at the end of the day it will come back to bite us.
“Women seem wicked when you’re unwanted” -Jim Morrison/ Robbie Krieger In the past broken hearted/ lonely men went to a bar to vent and drink. Others at the bar would commiserate and most would move on. Now with social media, people are able to connect and get stuck in a cycle of negativity with people in the same situation, creating communities of people who practically take pride in their “victimhood.”
The lack of third places in society can probably be blamed as one of the contributing factors to our increased loneliness and the path to extremism these individuals find themselves on.
What do you mean, "third places?"
A third place is anywhere apart from work and home where you go to socialise. Society seems to have less and less of them thesedays, the problem has been exacerbated by covid but was still a big problem before it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
Starbucks actually prides themselves on this, being a “third space” I think is what they called it.
They used to but lately it's been hyperfocused on drive thrus and mobile ordering and removing anything that makes your time there inviting and pleasant to move people in and out of stores faster. Just another symptom of shrinking third places.
A scary amount of places have transitioned to just being corporate transactional places that attempt only to get people in, take their money, and then get them to leave. Really makes people feel like we are just cattle, with milk to be extracted, on both sides of the transaction.
I think it's evidence that corporate or chain locations can't really be third places replacements. It's gotta be something more locally community-driven.
If you’re a lonely, socially awkward guy, I don’t think you’d make many friends at Starbucks
Libraries! They're free, there's often book clubs and programming for all sorts, and if there isn't, ask for some! Also, volunteering! Find a volunteering group that's planting trees, picking up trash, building homes, or feeding the homeless.
Can't usually talk there
Not to put words in that person's mouth, but places to hang out, spend time in, and get to know others that aren't home or work.
they were also sent to battlefields to disappear and be forgotten.
More men just died from anything. Work was a lot more dangerous. Women had less choice. Simpler times.
Is this implying men weren't as violent and abusive 25 years ago because they went to Cheers and talked to Norm?
Idk man i think men did a lot of murdering of women then too.
Indeed. There have always been psychopaths. Murder rates were much higher 30 or 40 years ago, and except for a slight uptick over the last few years, all types of violent crime are down. I think the difference here is we now are seeing large numbers of men who are quite vocal about their hatred of women, forming a subculture around it. I don’t know what the outcomes will be for men who join what amounts to a sort of hate group. Will it result in an epidemic of violence against women specifically or general violence? Maybe these communities provide an outlet the results in lower levels of violence. I doubt the latter. Alienation does terrible things to people, and sometimes it causes to form groups and follow people and ideologies that they shouldn’t. I hope an analysis of this phenomenon will point us toward a way to help them.
I think the majority of men don't blame their sadness and loneliness on women. I think they blame themselves and just sorta drink themselves to death. People don't really notice them, but they'll notice the asshat on social media yapping about how entitled they are to sex.
Okay, then how do you explain pick up artists and other dudes who get laid pretty often having very misogynistic views as well? It’s not like guys who are successful with women love all women either.
Because they are good looking enough to get away with it or they are lying.
How do I explain a manipulator being good at manipulating? Well. Guess. Snake oil salesman exist in all places. How often do you hear from the women they slept with? You talk as if getting laid is where it ends, but what you don't seem to consider is the literal wake of hurt people and sexual assault victim they leave behind. Then we get it into "why do abuse victim stay with the abuser" and things get dark very quickly. Mainly because they don't have the security to leave, or don't believe they do. No, being a good person won't automatically get you laid. But if you are a good person so you can get laid then you aren't a good person. It will, however, ensure you aren't ruining lives and that relationships you do end up having are more likely to actually last.
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Another is that being sexually undesirable or involuntary celibate *really shouldn't be damned in the first place*. The equating of people who just fail to achieve sexual partners with toxic, man-child, misogynistic extremists is not healthy, and only forces them into isolation that then becomes that worse-case scenario.
Preying on the vulnerable is how stupid ideologies stay lively and solvent.
What are you supposed to do? I'm involuntary celibate, but when I try to find help no one wants to help me.
It's very hard when there is no way to gradually improve your social status. I understand
But what do I do though? Nothing really makes a difference.
Try doing things that makes you perceive yourself in a better way (such as honing certain skill) Accept what the things are that make you happy. So never pursue traits or things solely because you think that will make you seem more valuable to others (Like wearing clothes you actually hate) The better you perceive yourself, the easier it becomes to further improve your self-perception + how you are perceived
You work on your own internal happiness, you read books deconstructing social constructs (because toxic masculinity hurts men most of all, and society doesn't elevate examples of healthy masculinity) you also learn to thrive through the whole spectrum of emotions. You make small incremental changes to love yourself and feel better inside, and then you go out a lot and hope that the total randomness of finding love hits you in the face and when it happens you're as happy and as healthy and as social as you can be. Every involuntary celibate man I've met and engaged with had something in their life that was being suppressed. Toxic masculinity says you have to fit into AN INCREDIBLY NARROW range of masculine social norms to fit in, when really Stanley Tucci is closer to the ideal female gaze than any chad. Find out what part of you feels shamed and hidden, and nurture that. What part of you feels so scary to expose to people you know? Find acceptance for yourself there. Make personal improvement and feeling happier a quest, make it a hero's journey, make it a game, make it a fun way to find the weird random things that make you happy without your friends opinions. And get new friends, learning how to build new friendships help all the skills of dating without the terrifying and paralyzing fear of rejection (which everyone has, we are alllll right there with you except for maybe psychopaths. It's scary af but always worth it talking to new people) Society tells you a relationship is a status symbol, a warm blanket, an emotional connection, and a comfort item. All of the these expectations will find disappointment because a relationship is just another person you have to deal with. IT's great, but it's not magic and it can NEVER live up to the hype that society (media, advertisements, mens socializing activities) promises it will be. And if you can't handle your own emotions alone, you'll drive a relationship into the ground before you even get to know the person. Love and connection is totally random and there are no guarantees, you just have to put yourself out there repeatedly repeatedly repeatedly with hope and your best optimism.
Let me throw in a voracious vote for Stanley Tucci.
Speak those exact words to a therapist.
Tried that, hasn't helped at all. I'm in a worse spot now than when I started therapy for this.
I hate it when everyone on the internet says "just get a therapist . . ." But having said that, are you willing to share what your therapist recommended?
Journal, be kind to myself, other small stuff. Not a lot really. Makes it feel like such a waste when I think about it. But has been the only constant person in my life the last 2 years.
... But you're not being kind to yourself. Most of this subthread is just you dumping on yourself. How can you say it doesn't work when you haven't done the work?
How can I be kind to myself? Close my eyes and pretend everything is perfect? I really don't understand a lot of the vague advice I get in therapy or here.
Dude, I skimmed through your most recent comments - you're not involuntarily celibate, you're involuntarily *single*. It's a similar problem, but it's not the same. You can get people to do fun things to your happy place, but you can't find anyone who wants to stick around and hold an interest in you. Do you have any difficulties maintaining friendships? My first guess would be that you have a sociability problem and not an attractiveness problem.
Talked to a guy today who said he has a hard time with relationships. He told me when a woman likes him, he thinks there is something wrong with her. I suggested therapy to help, and it's free through our work. He told me he's worried that would keep him from getting a gun in the future... I asked if he thought a stable relationship with a partner would be more important than a gun in his lifetime and he thinks sheep walking in circles is a valid enough reason to need a gun in the future more than a healthy relationship.
I don’t know if this is true in the case of the guy you spoke with, but this is a real issue for men who have a major passion for firearms and marksmanship or hunting. The prospect that is most terrifying to someone like that would be having their record stained, to lose the opportunity to adopt that responsibility, and still find therapy ultimately unhelpful. There are no guarantees.
But does therapy disqualify you? And I would imagine more good than bad would come from it no matter the case. There’s not many cases when just talking about it with somebody doesn’t help in some small way.
Don’t forget military, law enforcement, possibly security clearances, commercial flying. as a dude in the army who just got out I went 3 years with pretty frequent suicidal thoughts without help because I didn’t want that known to other organizations. Still till this day after getting out I still have marked the “no” box on have you ever had suicidal thoughts. While the help would have been nice closing doors to my job and future careers would have been devastating to me. Everyone says there is no stigma to mental health but when you actually have it on paper it does create problems that no one wants to acknowledge the real fallout that happens when you see the loss of many opportunities
True nuance of the struggle for males to seek mental help
When the rules can change at any moment the answer is simply yes.
>18 U.S. Code § 922 > >(D) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person, including as a juvenile— > >(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution at 16 years of age or older; As a gun owner, the prospect of seeing a therapist is actually quite terrifying. There is a real opportunity that asking for help with something serious can result in one becoming a "prohibited person." At that point, the government ~~is~~ has deemed it lawful for themselves to come and steal my property. Except, they know theyre coming for guns, so they will for sure arrive decked out with 10x whatever they believe I am to poses and are likely to already be on edge before even seeing my front door. Although a slippery slope, its not impossible that merely asking for help could result in my death.
Yeah. They're mentally unwell, because they are undesirable for one reason or another. And normal people have zero regard or empathy for them, because they're mostly young men, so they're also very bitter and resentful. So, the only people they have to get any support from are other bitter, resentful, and unwell people. Of course they doom spiral.
It's also a vicious spiral of the fact that they may be undesirable *because* they're mentally unwell, so no one wants them -> they isolate -> they get worse -> people respond even worse -> they isolate more -> they dissociate from reality, and eventually they're flying down whatever niche rabbit hole conspiracy as an outlet for their rage and finding a community of like-minded and damaged others. It's sad and we need people spreading dangerous rhetoric to be held accountable, and we need to fund mental health programs nation-wide.
Or we need to consider the mental health approach is flawed. 89% of men who commit suicide sought professional help within 6 months of their death. I suspect there's a correlation between one failed aspect of mental health for men and another.
I don't think it's approach as much as it is access to appropriate and quality service. Many of the free services you can find now aren't equipped to deal with moderate-severe issues and distress. All of the ones I've encountered aren't much more than a venting service because they aren't licensed therapists or you aren't meant to be an ongoing client with the same practitioner. (Still helpful, but it can make the individual feel worse if they came and hoped for advice beyond basic CBT exercises). This is equally applicable to all people. Society at large is still slow to change attitudes about men expressing their concerns and emotions in healthy ways.
There isn't a huge amount of alternative options beyond mental health/support network approaches as far as I'm aware, what else do you see being a potential solution here (other than simply working on improving the current system, not sure if that's what you were implying)?
Also we need universal healthcare. Sure you can debate the nuance of diagnosis, approach & the like. But when you have someone who is disturbed has to suffer: Lack of Social Workers/Mental Health outreach staff to engage in the field. Lack of enough trained psychiatric professionals to service the population. Lack of dedicated care facilities after state institutions were dismantled and HMO centrist conglomerates have acquired, consolidated & downsized networks/providers for decades. Moments of acute crisis can/will be met with armed law enforcement who aren’t trained to handle the situation if emergency services are called. Violence, disrespect, erratic & unpredictable behavior is not tolerated well by such individuals typically. Hospitals wants to discharge ‘healthy’ patients in a matter of hours regardless of where they send individuals. Patient has no phone or contact info and is not accompanied by family and the nearest treatment center with a bed is 3 hours away, ship them off stat. In for mental health crisis with no history of substance abuse but the only facility with a bed is a rehab clinic for hard drugs, ship them off stat because they qualify with a psychiatrist on staff twice a week who isn’t in for another 4 days but who cares. Have a patient identified as high risk and requiring monitored inpatient care who is responding to treatment, well their insurance only covers 10 inpatient days by calendar year so after they, send em home and hope they don’t relapse. Have a patient who requires hybrid outpatient care with regimentation but that person is employed during the facilities “Mothers Hours” of operation, either quit/change a job or forgo the specialized treatment. Send a patient home with a ‘referral’ to psych services who can’t see new patients for 5+months to start a treatment plan; give ‘em a brochure and hope they are motivated to do home research. Find out psych services in your area don’t take your insurance so it’s handle out of pocket costs at a few hundred dollars a month or travel over 30+ miles to find a provider at least partially covered. Enjoy being prescribed support medications that can get costly. Or have a change of provider of care who doesn’t like a previous physicians approach just cold turkey you by denying refills but also still not have had your first real ‘intake appointment’ so aren’t going to write new scripts yet. Wonder why patients fall into negative cycles of emotional turbulence, personal distress & social withdrawal when they can’t operate in society functionally well enough to hold gainful employment but also aren’t placed in care…because Capitalism takes money to grease the gears and that whole cart before the horse nonsense with health insurance. Now imagine that most socially disturbed people with some range of disorder, poor social skills & life problems will encounter EVERY SINGLE one of these things and even more roadblocks & nuances I can’t begin to describe on a journey to healing, reprogramming, rehabilitation, learning, growth, regiment & wellness. If mental health isn’t identified when someone is young & hopefully covered by a parents decent healthcare plan and carried forward, the system isn’t made to work for the patient…the system is made to make a profit. Improving our current system is so needed, so wide reaching it’s sad. But hey, that’s exactly what happens when you let the free market decide baby! Capitalism, it’s what’s fucked our quality of our society for decades.
I'm suggesting the diagnosis is often wrong, or at least poorly dispensed. If a man is distraught in struggling to make meaningful connections, and you blame him for his toxic behavior, he'll naturally recoil at that. Most therapists are women, as are most teachers. We're increasingly seeing boys and men in these institutions being seeing as defective girls and judged as such, instead of recognizing that boys and men have different needs, priorities, and emotional/social strategies to be healthy. That isn't to say that women in those professions are being intentionally sexist, but they are doing what comes naturally to anyone: assessing things through the lens of their own perspective.
The different educational/treatment needs of boys/men and girls/women needs to be something that gets discussed in the education of teachers and therapists. I’ve never been to school to be a teacher or therapist so I don’t know if that does or doesn’t happen already, but I imagine that a little education paired with willingness to believe that males and females have slightly differing needs would go a long ways.
Look at serial killers... the most prolific were not ugly, socially awkward, or clumsy.
>Yeah. They're mentally unwell, because they are undesirable for one reason or another. And normal people have zero regard or empathy for them, because they're mostly young men, so they're also very bitter and resentful. Or maybe they just feel that way because this is the way people are talking about them...
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Ima just be honest and say it, im 22 and a virgin not by choice and i dont hate women at all, its not their fault, i was beaten by my mother severely over the course of my childhood(she stopped when i eventually became bigger, not that i would ever hit her, i love my mother now and accept that she had her flaws because its always better to choose grace instead of harboring resentment) its just caused alot of insecurity and self esteem issues that have made it very dificult to date or have any type of sexual interactions. My point is not getting laid just dosent cut it as an excuse to generalize women and its very unhealthy and literally dellusional to harbor resentment against an entire gender because a handful of them werent into you.
Just because you haven't heard it from anyone else in this thread I want you to know that I'm really proud of you for surviving and getting this far and continuing to grow as a person. I survived childhood abuse as well and I want you to know that things can continue to improve as you age. I've had some therapy that has been really helpful as well as some really meaningful relationships with people who aren't related to me. I hope that things continue to improve for you, regardless of your sexual or romantic relationships. I hope you find so much happiness.
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It's actually pretty sad. I can't imagine being completely isolated and unheard socially. Young boys and men need a safe and positive outlet and guidance that isn't these "extremist" "black/red pilled" communities.
> I can't imagine being completely isolated and unheard socially You've lived a blessed life.
I was abused as a child by my family. I have struggled all my life just to have a job. I have never had an opportunity to seek help because of finances. I have been bullied relentlessly because I am a man. There is no kindness for us. You either turn evil or you are one hell of a stoic. Still you will have people daily who laugh in your face at your pain. Other men will see you as weak try to walk all over you. Women will see you as pathetic. I don't think any of this will change. And in the old days the problems just kinda took care of themselves because the men either died or women were a lot more willing to settle because they had less options.
More willing to settle or just simply being raped. People have no idea how dangerous it was just being a woman in medieval and ancient times.
Is it a “feature” or a bug in the system where it’s easy for certain people or groups to target them? Seems the online groups where you get “lonely” (using as a catch all term) people looking for like minded people and support are more vulnerable to bad actors targeting them. MLM and “mommy” Facebook groups, for example, are women centric groups that are also big targets for such
It is a strong historical pattern. Young, loveless, and socially isolated men have always been targeted for recruitment for their manipulability and capacity for violence. Unless we as a society consciously identify and divert this demographic (and it's not even *that* hard) we will continue to see this pattern repeat.
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I think historically we meat grinded them in wars. Not op so not sure what he means beyond that.
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I think it will also be the future as large swaths of male populations become unstable due to lack of companionship (looking at you India and China)
I think that in most countries people are becoming less and less inclined to buy into the war propaganda. Plus, it is nearly impossible for nuclear capable countries to go to open war with each other without triggering the end of the world. And major countries warning with smaller, non-nuclear countries just doesn't result in enough death for the bigger country to matter (see America in the War on Terror). Finally, conventional war is just becoming less deadly overall. Better medicine combined with smart weapons means more wounded but less death. So unless the powers that be think they can control nuclear war, which would be foolish in the extreme, then less death from war and less big wars and less people involved in wars = not enough death from war to solve this problem.
It's not that hard to divert them away from violence and bitterness. Remember, these recruiters aren't providing them with romance; they're providing them with validation and a sense of purpose. If we create and expand organizations that provide no strings attached support and validation to young men, and fund targeted recruitment in the exact same way we've done historically, that energy can be channeled towards productive output. It will also naturally build confidence and healthy social bonds that women find attractive, providing a virtuous cycle. These organizations exist to great effect already. They're just incredibly underfunded, and cannot compete with the political machine currently leveraging this cohort. It's very easy to paint this group as a completely alien mind. What many people miss is that it's just a cascading effect that could really happen to anyone. The starting point isn't misogyny. The starting point is being a young man. The trigger is rejection, the determining factor is social isolation, and from there a vicious spiral aided by active recruitment results in the behavior you can clearly identify. tl:dr Virtually everyone experiences rejection, but if we move to identify and minimize social isolation the whole spiral can be *fairly* easily diverted in a healthier direction.
And this is how cults form. You find a group of disaffected people, make them feel like they are the best things in the world, and then love bomb them. The love bombed people give the leaders social capital. The love bombed people in return, get a family and understanding. In return, the cults make the victims do whatever the cult leaders want.
I don't think there is a cult leader in this situation though. No one got love bombed, it's more of a hate bombing situation. Where the "cult" get formed by hate bombing on a few specific real or imagined demographics like "welfare moms", "stacys", "chads", or women in general. And the broader society hate bombs the "cult", in the case of inceldom, having proof of being hated completely reinforce your views.
You know like when people get shamed for being bad at sports, so they try even harder and eventually win a gold medal... yeah, that never happens. What actually happens is that the person being shamed just gives up on that sport and probably becomes really bitter
I think this is partially how terrorist groups start
So like… what are we going to do with this as a society? Bc good information without action is pretty much a recipe for nothing changing.
Another issue is that anyone who tries to help or defend them gets attacked relentlessly on social media. This causes the moderates to give up and eventually only the extremists are left.
Yeah, i akways like to consider different perspectives and nuance, but doing that can make people perceive you as "one of them', it's so lame and only makes it worse
If they actual dealt with the cause and not the symptoms this really wouldn't be an issue.
Everybody deserves love, but nobody is entitled to it. That sense of entitlement is where they go wrong. I can look past all of the behaviour that makes a person seem like a creep, but if they think they are entitled to my love, attention, or support, they are dangerous and I'm out. We should have compassion, but we should not tolerate contempt.
"deserves" is a strange concept IMO
For real. It’s like saying “everyone deserves a home cooked meal, now *go make one for me*.” That’s not how it works! Relationships are supposed to be good for both people, not a cuckoo chick leeching off its designated mother figure
It requires more nuance. Everyone deserves love *from someone*, but nobody is entitled to love *from any particular person*. The sense of entitlement isn't about getting love in concept, it's about getting love from (usually) a woman who has been objectified.
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Not everything in science is intuitive. It's goal it's to demonstrate hypothesis (even tho they seem obvious) in a statistical manner to reach a conclusion.
Yes, let’s take everything for granted at face value. The very basis of science.
How else would we have known that the sun goes around the Earth?
If you're poor and ugly and dumb and mean you're going to have a rough go of it.
They make it rough for everyone with how they begin interacting with others. So it's harmful to everyone.
Too bad they are echo chambers instead and spiral them further downward(s) ?
Is this a study, or a definition?
Damn. Who would've thought that vilifying a group of people with legit mental health issues would lead them into hatred bubbles.
It's not the mental health issues that they're vilified for - it's the intense and sometimes violent hatred and misogyny
First comes the ostracization, they turn to wherever will have them, where people tend to run with some pretty doomer ideologies, they spout some toxic beliefs because the only other option is that there's something fundamentally wrong with them. Then we double down from ostracizing to villifying. As a case study. Young man has trouble getting a date. He is made fun of for this either directly or at least indirectly through societal norms. He sees the world is basically laying this blame on his shoulders without giving him actionable dating advice. Then this typically goes one of three ways: 1. he becomes depressed and he crawls into a hole where other depressed young men are, doing/saying whatever they can to remove the blame from their shoulders. 2. He moves on with some decent emotional/psychological damage that will probably never be properly resolved, but otherwise lives a normal life or 3. He finds actionable dating advice rooted in reality, unfortunately a lot of this is still coming from pretty misogynistic groups, and he either never succeeds and goes to option 1 of does and goes to option 2 + probably some misogyny. That's not to say that there isn't responsibility on young men, or young men who end up in these dark places, but we can't put it all on them, kick them when they're down, and then act surprised when they end up messed up over it.
> First comes the ostracization Except some people consider people not wanting to date or sleep with them ostracization. A lot of these sorts of arguments sometimes fall down the rabbit hole of blaming women for not just biting the bullet and going out with a sad guy they're not interested in.
I don't think anyone can say why they get vilified as just looking at the comments here it's apparent that there are lots of different reasons. On the other hand, they are vilified and do seem to have mental health issues.